HR676 - The Single Payer Solution, Part 4 of 4

[dayvconsir]

Not gonna win. Always focused on the most promoted, wealthy, powerful. I can understand that way of thinking. I am going to be politicaly independent, even if it means not winning. Besides all of this people are continuing to call policies like this "socialized medicine." It could just as easly be called democratic medicine.

[panathabro]

@hoorano ps prayin wont work!!!!!!!

[hoorano]

@panathabro Votes will work and the polls are not in favor of the incumbents & democrats.

[redbonegal]

GOP is a trip, complaining about debt, is there any price on a person's life and good health? They say they are pro life but they sure don't act like it. If they cared about fixing healthcare they would have done it years ago. This is just a resistance to a Black POTUS. And they are going along party lines. Many of the GOP don't mind having an insurance company let them die so that they can pay the medical bills of the GOP senators.

[thisoldhate]

my argument was never that UHG was anti reform, that is to be expected and part of my whole argument... you really are an idiot... lol the point was that UHG has and is actively funding tea parties. You know, that whole thing you insisted I was wrong in stating? With morons like you supporting the "tea parties" it's no wonder dems are taking seats that have been republican controlled since the civil war (ny 23)

[thisoldhate]

hoorano... Would you stop touching your keyboard? Every time you do progressively more idiotic statements appear on my screen.

[thisoldhate]

demonize opponents? Pfft, you just characterized politics in general, but as you where so quick to dismiss me as "most libs" you have exposed yourself as the pot calling the kettle black. As far as the burden of proof goes frankly I don't have to prove anything to you as nothing I say would change your overly partisan mind. Get real man, politics is money and the insurance companies have plenty to throw around, as they so often do to turn an argument in their direction.

[hoorano]

You don't have any proof; thus, your argument is invalid.

[PatchesRips]

"You don't have any proof"

Of...?

[thisoldhate]

@ hoorano - If only you could dismiss me so easily. As I stated before the burden of proof doesn't belong to me. You're the one with the outlandish/ignorant ideas. You've lost this argument, realise your defeat and stop putting your fingers in your ears and yelling your dis-proven points. then again maybe you should keep doing it, as it further serves to discredit your point. whatever works for you. :)

[hoorano]

Saying that I lost doesn't make you a winner. I guess you're the idiot that can't come up w/ any proof that the townhall protests and tea parties are funded by the insurance companies. Face it and be a man! You can't find any evidence of the insurance co. being involved!

[thisoldhate]

I never said I was a winner, just that you're a loser ;) as far as proof goes you need only look to the plethora of "non profit" groups that take in millions from undisclosed sources and then just happen to fund events such as tea parties and these "grass roots" events you cling to so tightly. "freedom aint free" right? Only the freedom of which you speak is the freedom to be lied to. It's all corporately funded and the longer you deny it the more ignorant you prove yourself to be.

[hoorano]

You haven't mentioned any corporate names that you allege are funding the protest. You're drunk on the koolaid that the liberal media spouts. They can't name an insurance company either.

[thisoldhate]

I'm glad you find solace in the media, but frankly I'm capable of forming my own opinions without the help of a talking head on television. ALL of the cable news networks are nothing but a spin machine built to get ratings. Some are better at it than others, but all of them are at best a piss poor source for news. Once again you have lumped me into a group that I quite frankly am not constrained by, and therefore have failed in making any point whatsoever.

[thisoldhate]

BTW Google "tea party UnitedHealth Group"

[hoorano]

It looks like the United Health Group, an ally of Obama, have turned against him. Dang! Some corporations are getting it! If Obamacare passes, their corporation may disappear. Thanks for the good news! All corporations will unite against govt take over of the health industry. I prefer doctors to prescribe care for me rather than bureaucrats.

[rwcbanzai]

Single payer or we'll all die broke! The public option is a scheme/racket to take all your money before you die!

[hoorano]

Hello! We are already broke!

[PatchesRips]

"Hello! We are already broke!"

That's due in part to the fact you're spending

twice what you have to in order to make the

guys running the HMOs rich.

[hoorano]

Where have you been, Mexico? Where does it states that the HMO caused the national debt? It was the spend rifting govt that brought us here. The current govt is making it worst. Passing any public option hc will worsen the debt. Pelosi, Reid, & Obama must be stopped

[PatchesRips]

"Passing any public option hc will worsen the debt."

How? Half the $6000-$7000 the US already spends per patient is government funding. Remember that it costs half that, or less, in countries with single-payer systems -- these stats are available quite freely on NationMaster. What's inflating the cost is a) the uncontrolled profit margins and b) the administrative overhead involved in denying claims, enforcing claims, suits and counter-suits, and processing and collecting fees. That's needless.

[panathabro]

@rwcbanzai moron

[thisoldhate]

health care for all, not just the rich. our current health care system is little more than segregation of the poor from the rich.

[hoorano]

In USA, you have the right to raise your standard of living. Socialist countries promotes tracking either by race or family origin. The opportunities to become financially independent is endless. Once upon a time Bill Gates was struggling student.

[PatchesRips]

"In USA, you have the right to raise your standard of living."

But not to just plain ol' LIVING itself, huh?

[hoorano]

I'm living. Are you?

[PatchesRips]

Are you into the weed again?

[panathabro]

@PatchesRips agreed!! further more this standard of living crap is just that..crap....health care for all!!!!!!

[Spytheweb]

hoorano, you are wrong. If you get hurt while in Europe they take care of you. They have universal health care. Blows your mind doesn't it? Everyone is not a me, me, me country. Watch PBS website, sick around the world, and sick around America. A lot of info. Single payer is the most cost effective system hands down. Why it works is because of such a large pool of people paying in, not paying insurance companies but paying for the care we need. Single payer medicare for all.

[hoorano]

Really? Why don't you move to UK or Canada if like 1 payer HC. Why should the public & I pay for everybody's HC? You're a grown up and you provide your own groceries right? Would it be your right for me & and public to buy your food, stereo, car, house, etc. HC is available for everyone whether you have insurance or not (emergencies). We aren't the United Socialist States of America! Euthanasia for the unborn & elderly to cut cost is not the way of the USA.!

[PatchesRips]

"Why should the public & I pay for everybody's HC?"

For the same reasons the public and you pay for everybody's eduction, defence, police and court protection, sanitation, fire fighting, water delivery, roads, highways, and interstates, international airport management and coordination, etc.

"We aren't the United Socialist States of America!"

Oh? Please refer to the above list.

[hoorano]

I take it you are for euthanasia since you didn't address it. Have you ever visited a state HC facility? It's down right depressing. As one of my mentor said -- big govt make the people smaller.

Questions:

1 How is 1 payer is going to be paid (big co. are already targeted) w/o raising the debt?

2 Can govt guarantee quality care like we have it now?

3 Name 1 nation that equals the quality the US have.

4. Why don't you move to a socialist country?

PBS is nothing but a liberal propaganda station.

[PatchesRips]

"1 How is 1 payer is going to be paid (big co. are already targeted) w/o raising the debt?"

The US currently spends over $6000 per patient. Canada pays roughly half that; Britain even less. The money's already there (and then some); you just have to stop shoveling huge chunks of it to administrators, litigation lawyers, and the profit margins of HMOs.

[hoorano]

Answer the question. How are we going pay for this w/o going deeper into depth? Cursing the HMO is not an answer. HMO doesn't own part of US GDP. Google AP & health insurance companies. Claiming the HMOs are rich as hell is an overstatement that Obama likes to preach. Like most corporations, profit is put back into their industry for better quality.

[PatchesRips]

"Answer the question. How are we going pay for this w/o going deeper into depth?"

I did answer it. You're paying six grand per patient on average (only HALF of which is public funding) because you have a for-profit layer of lard at every level of your health care delivery system model. A single-payer system eliminates virtually all of it. THE MONEY IS ALREADY THERE. It just needs to be channeled properly.

[hoorano]

So. Like a true radical, you're for redistribution of wealth. It's not going to happen. The dissent against Obama's radical change is starting to take it's toll. His popularity is dropping. Eventually, the media is going to realize that Obama is incompetent since he is not fulfilling his promise of a fiscally responsible govt. Even if the public option passes, the democrats has shot themselves in the foot for it's radically left lawmaking. The conservatives will take over congress.

[PatchesRips]

"Like a true radical, you're for redistribution of wealth."

Yep, all those radical redistributions of wealth like highways and police forces and fire fighters and public education and armies, navies, air forces, and sanitation systems and air traffic control and water distribution and, oh yes, health care.

"The dissent against Obama's radical change is starting to take it's toll."

Good. His plan sucks. It should be scrapped forthwith and replaced by HR 676.

[PatchesRips]

"the democrats has shot themselves in the foot"

If they support the plan to fine people for not lining up to be fed to the HMOs, they sure have. If they give the people of the United States what they're really asking for -- a single-payer system that covers everyone in the US like in HR 676 -- they'll reap the rewards of keeping faith with the voters who elected them.

They used to say the same thing about Tommy Douglas 50 years ago. Google his name sometime and see what they think of him now.

[PatchesRips]

"...Obama is incompetent since he is not fulfilling his promise of a fiscally responsible govt"

He's been in office, what, seven months now? Bush had eight years and larded $7.1 TRILLION onto the federal debt, more than doubling it -- and you're seriously scoffing because a mortal man hasn't turned that around and glided the US debt back to Leave It to Beaver days in less time than it takes to have a baby? Give your head a shake. This is a project for SEVERAL presidents in succession to tackle.

[PatchesRips]

"2 Can govt guarantee quality care like we have it now?"

The government doesn't provide the care; just pays for it.

"3 Name 1 nation that equals the quality the US have."

Pretty much any other industrialized Western country. They virtually all have higher life expectancies than the US.

"4. Why don't you move to a socialist country?"

Don't need to. I live in a G7 country that already provides universal health coverage for citizens and residents.

[panathabro]

@hoorano i can name 36...check your stats moron

[hoorano]

Private insurance is not broke. Medicare & medicaid is broke. Govt refuse to be responsible in managing the funds like social security which is $100 trillion in debt (something that's not publicized). $1.5 trillion in 10 years is a down right lie. Govt won't lower cost in health care. Govt, democrat particularly, will say, "we need to raise taxes to keep up w/ the cost." This will stifle the economy and USA. "Free our Health Care (google this)." Keep it w/in the free market that works better.

[archivemaster2001]

I helped get my Congresswoman elected in Hollywood, Florida.I have been haunting my Congresswomans Office and will actively oppose her reelection if she doesn't support HR676

[ubuibiok]

Push back... your politicians has staffers that answer the phone and record and Track call-ins.

They even agree to note your issues and log the calls to show there boss who and how many issues there dealing with and if your a voting from their district.

Low complaints allows them to vote with the money... voter HEAT count puts them into a survival mod .

If they commit to the money in a HIGH HEAT count, bet your last dollar they go into the next election wearing a parachute . 202 224-3121

[hoorano]

Yeah, the grass roots against the govt public option is picking up. Go through "Free our Health Care" to fax & email your congressmen for free.

[thisoldhate]

grass roots my ass.. the roots of the opposition to health insurance reform aren't rooted in the green green grass but the green green money they have been swindling you out of for years.

[hoorano]

Show me proof that insurance co. are involved in the anti-Obama(don't)care. Craig's list had job listing to show up to Tea Parties for Obama(don't)care paid by ACORN.

[thisoldhate]

I find it funny that your reply made absolutely no sense. you kinda trailed off there in a flurry of false news talking points. Whatever the case may be, the only thing you have to consider to find out who is at the base of anti insurance reform propaganda is to think who stands to gain the most from not having reform. Who might that be you ask? The health insurance industry stands to gain the most, and if you deny that then you truly are retarded.

[hoorano]

I dare you to show me proof of the involvement by the insurance co. in any of the Tea Parties. The HMO profit margin ranks 86 of the top 100 industry according Carp Diem. Like most libs, they can't prove their positions. They only believe what they feel is right and demonize opponents when challenged. Show how smart you are and prove yourself!

[thisoldhate]

I sure wish I could be one of the 100 most profitable businesses. I guess when you deny people what you promised them as a matter of course it's pretty easy to become incredibly rich. Also in recent months insurance companies have indeed REPORTED less profits than in past years. which seems like a pretty obvious move for someone whose profits have come strongly into question, but hey what do I know.

[sincerityproductions]

No more proof need then this past week that the gov't is embedded with the private sector, we must shout loud that we want single payer health care hr676 message me to sign petition and pass it on

[hms08KY]

So much venom against illegals--so little care for our suffering sick--the uninsured and underinsured. Of course we should fix the immigration laws and penalize employers who import and exploit undocumented workers. However, it is a moral and fiscal imperative to fix our health care system. And frankly we need to cover everyone--It's a homeland security issue. We can't have anyone (documented or not) hiding in the shadows, afraid to go to the doctor, with a communicable disease like TB.

[panathabro]

@hms08KY undocumented not illegals...pass it on!!!!

[lynx234]

I wrote my Congressmen--except for one, they ignore the letters. The one who wrote back said NO. They got theirs, they don't care.

[FluxCapacitor2008]

If we had some way of repaying the tax payers that buy into the one person pay system that dont use it, in the form of a tax rebate at the end of the year this will give some incentive not to use it for non catastrophic care. Also we could have a plan that will give anyone a choice to opt out of the one person pay system on their payroll deductions form or tax form. If a person does opt out and buys privet health insurance they can not use the benefits of the public health system.

[magnoliafan27]

Arguing against use of the system by illegal residents is often racist. The figures just don't add up to more than 1% of healthcare costs, whether illegal residents are covered or not-- and this bill does not legalize illegal alien access. Meanwhile criminal insurance companies continue to cut off funding for medicines and procedures, wasting 10% of total healthcare costs on administration (profits and denials). See Himmelstein and Woolhandler's research on this to verify the figure.

[hoorano]

Will Canada, UK, or other socialized nations provide US citizens free health care? Probably not. Why should they want to spend on non-citizens; thus, why should we spend on non-citizens of USA. NICE in the UK (Obama wanted to emulate) can limit treatment to people w/ life threatening illnesses like how the insurance can limit funding treatment to expensive pre-existing cases. The govt can be as evil in creating an euthanasia system for end of life scenarios.

[benjini1]

Conyers' single-payer proposal differs only on the insurance (financing) side of your group's proposal, while actually creating a way to pay for the free choice of doctors and hospitals you refer to.

The Wyden-Bennett bill would not "free" us all to buy in to the private health market. It's only neutral in CBO scoring because it doesn't look at the citizen's wallet. Mandates to buy in to the morass of private insurance raise costs (and bureaucracy)-- google "I am not a health reform"

[kennny732]

yes, watch the movie 'sicko'

[hoorano]

Try watching John Stossel's repudiation of sicko. Moore's propaganda of other nation's 1 payer health care (hc) is total lie. Try watching the all the dilapidated hc facilities of Cuba on this site. Moore make his case to make a quick buck since he knows that controversies bring arouses people's curiosity. 1 payer hc in US exists -- medicare & medicaid. It's not the US govt's job to force us into these inefficient programs. Free Our Health Care Now!

[headstorms]

John Stossel is a libertarian hack, paid by the corporate profiteers to spout "pure free market" drivel. Personally, I am a capitalist, but I am smart enough to understand (like every other capitalist democracy in the world has) that effective capitalism requires a certain amount of social solidarity - including health care.  Sure, Cuba has issues - but they are not a wealthy nation. Moore's comparison shows a nation with next-to-nothing can do something that the wealthiest of nations cannot.

[hoorano]

Yeah right. Look at how much money Moore is profiting from his films. I would love to his tax papers and see how much he contributes to non-profit orgs. Like most liberals, they don't contribute much like Obama & Biden. Liberal only think of 1 thing -- power. I'll never pay to watch any of Moore's films, including "Capitalism."

So far the grassroots is making a difference. Obama lied that he doesn't want a 1 payer hc. He's only appeasing the naysayers. If passed, HR 3200 will lead to 1 payer hc.

[PatchesRips]

"I'll never pay to watch any of Moore's films, including "Capitalism.""

Yeah, God forbid you should expose yourself to views that challenge your own comfortable preconceptions and have the potential to change your mind and your life, or at least better inform you in debates. I suppose you're due some sort of recognition for so proudly declaring your intention to remain ignorant of new ideas as though you were exercising some great democratic right...

[panathabro]

@PatchesRips u sir are a genius..!!!!!

[hoorano]

MTV's Kurt Loder also peeled the cover of sickO and Moore ignored it.

[hoorano]

@headstorms Did you hear what Castro said about his socialistic govt? He finally admits that socialism is a failure.

[panathabro]

@hoorano he's playing politics buddy...he is gonna die soon...he says some shit like that, is nice to the US, they lift the embargo which is what killed them, and they remain socialists but can now trade within the Us and accept tourism which would be huge...than good luck trying to put the embargo back on...lmao

[panathabro]

@hoorano watched stossels repudiation...it sucked...ps i bet you were against the public option, and you talk about having a choice and not being forced? ha..im forced to buy your shitty private insurance now...how is that freedom?

[hoorano]

@panathabro What makes you think the govt can do better in HC? What govt program isbetter than the private corporations goods and services? Here's the quick answer: NOTHING! Medicare/aid and social security are going broke because how govt abused the system. The VA HC sucks (not the patients' fault. God bless them). I pray that the conservative take over the House of Rep. & Senate. They'll not fund Obamacare. I dare Obama to shut down the govt in the midst of a recession.

[panathabro]

@hoorano the govt runs health care better than private insurance...and by healthcare we mean the passing along of our money without taking billions in products...the va is a govt hospital, im talking about having private hospitals but having the govt be the middle man w our money...let me ask you a question...what does a health insurance company do exactly for you, what service do they provide that justifies them taking half your money and putting it in there pocket rather than treatment etc.???

[hoorano]

@panathabro There are VA hospital and VA medical insurance (I'm in the military). Let's look at the debt of govt entitlement programs:

Medicare: $32.4 trillion

Medicaid: $1 trillion

Social Security: $1 billion deficit w/in a decade

So we are in a recession w/ over $13 trillion in debt (minus Obamacare) & climbing w/ the fail job stimulus program (unemployment still @ 9.5%). If a corporation had this kind of performance, it would be bankrupt 3x over.

[panathabro]

@hoorano well i know i can still go to any hospital in chicago w medicare or medicaid so i get the same treatment w govt ins or private except its cheapre!! job stimulus isnt proven to have failed...what would unemployment b without it? thirdly, imagine we paid for all medicare patients to have private insurance...it would cost 100 trillion instead of 32...lastly, what does your health insurance complany do for you that it can take half your payment for profit? you dont have an answer do u

[hoorano]

@panathabro You demonize the wealthy for their greed, yet you want something (like HC) for nothing. I think you and others who feels that HC a right are even more greedy. Corporations work hard to produce quality products & services. Profit is the result of the effort. Where's your effort to profit? Why don't you start a corporation & profit in this magnificent country called the United States of America. Better planning, products & services for end-of-life care can be produced w/o govt cost.

[panathabro]

@hoorano ok  2 things..1 you avoid the subject and the numbers that dont soot you..wealthy? did i say anything about the wealthy? you are just assuming...and im not saying everyone should get free healthcare...only that health insurance should be affordable and accesible to all..if you take the profit out of insurance, not hospitals and that stuff, just insurance we would even have enough to cover ppl who cant afford it and itd be cheaper for you , me and the next guy..

[panathabro]

@hoorano ps dont make up numbers....social security has a 1.5 trillion dollar SURPLUS

[hoorano]

@panathabro Show me where's the $?

[panathabro]

@hoorano wow you just cant answer can you...anyway, since when do you care about the money??? tax cuts for the rich?? worked great huh? not really ..how did we pay for that? we'll do what republicans did for 8 years...just print more money...

[hoorano]

@panathabro As I said to many others. Just because one is covered under Obamacare, it doesn't mean that s/he will receive the needed treatment, lesser for the elderly. Study UK's NICE program (you can google it). It's basically a death panel that limits the treatments in accords with their calculation of quality longevity and budget cost. If a patient's quality of life is not w/in the the parameter of "quality longevity" or if the cost of treatment is beyond the state's means, no treatment.

[panathabro]

@hoorano who said anything about britain....ill be glad to compromise and have a german type system...health care for all and you are more than welcome to supplement with private insurance.....we both would win if we actually had freedom to at least choose between prvt ins and a public option...

[panathabro]

@hoorano last hting...our system is nothing like britains...not even close....obamacare , govt insurance which you ppl call it because you dont know any better is not govt run anything....everyone will still have humana, cigna, etc except the govt put some rules on them ie gotta take everyone regardless of health, cant kick ppl off because they get sick etc....n for some low income ppl they will subsidize it ...how is that anything like britains or any other socialist sytstems

[hoorano]

@panathabro Businesses would shift towards the cheaper Obamacare and push out the private HC out of business (Obama's lie: business chooses or keeps your HC not you). This event would result to what the proponents like you would prefer, a single payer option. If the bill clearly states that the businesses are required to have private HC AND public HC options, then the private HC would have a chance to survive. There's nothing in the bill that states this requirement. Obamacare must die.

[panathabro]

@hoorano fine business decides.....they would have that choice. are you saying business shouldnt have a choice/?????..ps obamacare wont die...lol...it hasnt even started..y not give it a chance..according to every reputable budget commitee in the first decade it would save money..not even repubs can deny that...

[hoorano]

@panathabro According to ABC:CBO: Health Care Bill Will Cost $115 Billion More Than Previously Assessed May 12, 2010 9:08 AM. Need I say more?

[panathabro]

@hoorano one more thing about the below comment....WHY should insurances make profit? What to they do, what product do they give you, or what service? please tell me so i know since you thing they do something to deserve it. 115 billion?? lmfao...thats peanuts...what happen to the trillions ? we give 7 times that in tax breaks to the top 2 percent......o and im assuming you take that as me being against thewealthy....no...i just dont see how we complain about $ when we do things like that

[hoorano]

@panathabro If you don't like the market principle, move to Canada, UK, Cuba, N Korea, etc. where everyone is equal & poor. HC insurance needs to compete nationwide, not just in your state. If Apple was exclusive for one state w/ little competitors, the price for an Iphone would be extremely high. Nobody would want to buy it. Since it's available worldwide w/ major competitor, it's affordable. If more HC insurance can compete for your business, premiums will be cheaper

[panathabro]

@hoorano you fukn moron im so sik of your bullshit....america will b like canada, uk etc because this shit we have here is unsustainable so then you can fukn move somewhere and we will all be happy ........think of it like this if you were to come to my state id punch u in your ovaries , but you can go to another state and your ovaries will be fine.....it may make no sense to you so just stay out of my state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[panathabro]

@hoorano oooo not pennies more....cuz 115 b is pennies especially when you consider it WILL SAVE PPLS LIVES but would rather spend that money on corporate tax breaks also known as corp welfare or some bullshit...MORON MORON MORON MORON

[hoorano]

@panathabro Econ 201: Govt policies can affect the market like how states raise taxes for cigarettes to cut down on smoking. Now that single young adults under 26 yrs-old can be covered by their parents, premiums are going up as I write. Why? Demand for coverage will go up. In economics, this is called "demand shift." cost of premium in turn goes up. So much for Obama's promise that his socialized HC will be cheaper.

[panathabro]

@hoorano ps....we shouldnt have it ...but all republican and democratic senators and congressman should?? they have a choice..y do they all choose govt healthcare?

[MultiMatt9]

You don't know what you are talking about. I lived in America, I now live in Canada (Toronto). We have an excellent system here. EVERYBODY gets treated equally. The insurance companies are trying to scare you. Look it up for yourself. Canadians and Europeans live longer and healthier lives than Americans. It's a fact. Why? because we are taken care of by government run health care system. Don't be fooled into thinking otherwise.

[hoorano]

Good for you. I would never move to a socialistic nation that makes it illegal to pay for health care. Try research the challenged infants and elderly who are struggling to get the health care they couldn't get there and probably get in the US. Anyone who is healthy can appreciate free health care. It's the terminally ill who loses out in Canada & UK.

[PatchesRips]

"Try research the challenged infants and elderly who are struggling to get the health care they couldn't get there"

Why wouldn't they be able to get it? They're entitled to it. No one's going to tell them they no longer qualify. It doesn't work that why. Anyone can Google up (or make up) straw men and horror stories; why don't you give us specific examples? Or can you?

"It's the terminally ill who loses out in Canada & UK."

I would say the 'terminally' ill lose out anywhere, by definition.

[hoorano]

In UK and Canada, you have insurance. Just because you are covered in these nations, it doesn't mean you are guaranteed quality HC! Google "Perils of Single Payer Health Care" & see the 100's of cases people waiting in line for HC and coming to the US. Remember there's a difference in being covered vs receiving quality HC. The terminally ill has a better chance of surviving in the US because treatment is available w/o rationing by the socialist govt.

[PatchesRips]

"100's of cases people waiting in line for HC"

Hundreds of cases out of tens of millions, huh? Yeah, that sounds like quite a crisis. Tell me, where do the nearly 50 million of your citizens without any health coverage at all go to line up? The morgue, isn't it?

(cont'd)

[hoorano]

Study the census bureau on health care coverage. Approximately 12 million are not covered because they can't afford it. The other %age of people are illegal aliens, people voluntarily refused coverage (college age & middle-aged & middle income people), & people who are transitioning from 1 job to the next. Obama used this exaggeration of 45 million people as a selling point. This is not a crisis of health care. This is an attempt of the liberal to take away our liberties like Hitler did in DE.

[PatchesRips]

I don't care at all how you want to slice your baloney and what categorical sandwiches you want to put it in; the real issue is that nearly 50 million people aren't covered. That's a national disgrace, and there's no need for it.

"like Hitler did"

This has got to be a first; it's usually only in gun control debates that drowning men reach for the "Hitler" lifeline. Yeah, right, it's a way of life for people in every Western democracy but yours, but it's allllll about Hitler, yeah.

[hoorano]

Like all liberal drones, they like to preach numbers help them. They don't like to look at facts even if it scorched on their foreheads. During the congressional break Obama cut the number of uninsured to 30 million. The "You lie!" incident made Obama to not include the illegal immigrants number. PatchRips, you're a true drone who refuse to look at the "baloney" fact in the census bureau. I dare you to show me I'm wrong with these facts. I bet you won't since drones can't think for themselves.

[PatchesRips]

"Like all liberal drones, they like to preach numbers help them."

What, the one anomalous instance you cited, as opposed to the six I did?

"PatchRips, you're a true drone who refuse to look at the "baloney" fact in the census bureau."

Why do you think I care, why do you think it matters, the nature of the people who need coverage? Are you so bloodthirsty that you can actually wash your hands of the suffering of another simply because he wasn't born under your flag?

Typical.

[PatchesRips]

"The "You lie!" incident made Obama to not include the illegal immigrants number."

Let's postulate something then. If this is really a big objection to you, okay, let's be cold-blooded and disallow undocumented migrants. Fine. Even fewer people to cover. So it's a single-payer system for every citizen and legal resident of the United States, with the wetbacks alone left to fend for themselves. Does it work for you NOW?

Or are these 'facts' of yours just window dressing for something uglier?

[PatchesRips]

"I dare you to show me I'm wrong with these facts."

According to the US Census Bureau in its 2008 report:

"The nations official poverty rate in 2008 was 13.2 percent, up from 12.5 percent in 2007... the number of people without health insurance coverage rose from 45.7 million in 2007 to 46.3 million in 2008"

It indicated that coverage by employer fell by nearly one million people, 2007-2008.

(cont'd)

[PatchesRips]

(cont'd)

I downloaded the 'Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2008' report, issued last month, and searched it for the words "illegal", "undocumented", and "alien". NONE of them appears in the report.

Does this count as one of those "You lie!" incidents?

[PatchesRips]

(cont'd)

I'm well aware of the phenomenon you're raising. What you're talking about are queue jumpers who have the means to exploit the gaps in your system -- that SHOULD be serving YOUR poor, rather than our rich -- to avoid waits for non-crucial procedures.

"The terminally ill has a better chance of surviving"

The terminally ill have a ZERO percent chance of surviving, anywhere, by definition. That's what "terminally ill" means. What other miracles do US hospitals perform, raising the dead?

[hoorano]

You sound so Chavez, Castro-like. I wonder how you feel about you or your parents' lives being determined by the death panel. I wonder how you feel about Down Syndrome children or people. You're a true lefty who don't care about lives of other people. You only care about an utopian dream of equality for like Marx.

[PatchesRips]

"I wonder how you feel about you or your parents' lives being determined by the death panel."

We don't have them here. You do have them in the US, though; they're the individuals whose job it is to find ways to cut off the coverage of people who are costing the company too much money. So how do YOU feel about having death panels, actually?

[PatchesRips]

"You're a true lefty who don't care about lives of other people."

Well, let's see... I want everybody to be able to go to the hospital when they're sick, and not have to lose their homes, pensions, and futures to do it. You just whine about how much it will cost YOU and why should YOU have to pay for it, among other things in a long list of the necessities of life you'd apparently be happy to deny others if it cost you a nickel.

Which of us sounds like he doesn't care about other people...?

[hoorano]

If I could afford could afford to help others by contributions, I'll do it. I'm only a Preschool Teacher. This public govt option which will lead to 1 payer will leave debts to the children I'm serving. BTW, the majority of the US are against public option. So I am speaking for them in this blog. Why should the health care system be overhauled for 12 million (via census bureau) people who can't afford health insurance. 1 payer HC will lead to tyrannical govt that want to take away our liberties.

[PatchesRips]

"If I could afford could afford to help others by contributions, I'll do it."

It comes out of general revenue. The idea is to remove the unnecessary layers of bureaucracy and administration characteristic of your model and fund the project out of the savings. Like I said, what costs us $3000 per patient costs you $6000. Do the math. If you cut those costs in half, and only 1/6 of your population isn't covered, well... what's the problem?

[PatchesRips]

"1 payer HC will lead to tyrannical govt that want to take away our liberties."

No. It won't. 30 other countries just like yours prove that's empty, rhetorical bullshit.

[hoorano]

It's illegal Canadian to pay their govt for treatment. That is why they come to US. for medical treatment that isn't available or not available 6 months later when the treatment must be given immediately.

[PatchesRips]

"That is why they come to US."

Canadians typically go to the US for elective procedures that they're well-heeled enough to pay for, rather than waiting. Naturally, the resources of the system are weighted where they should be: towards treating life-threatening problems, rather than simply treating whoever has the most money.

[PatchesRips]

I mean, you want to talk about lives being determined by death panels? I had a friend in Texas who died of cancer about five years ago. He was only in his 20s. He had a great job with benefits, but his HMO kept trying to weasel out of his claims and disallow treatments. He spent the last few months of his life stressing out over paperwork and submitting forms. His VP threatened to pull their account! He wasn't just fighting cancer for his life, he was fighting his HMO -- a DEATH PANEL. Insanity.

[hoorano]

You think the govt can do better the private? Oh please, God forbid. Like I said before, just because the govt is willing to cover people, it doesn't mean that they will give you the treatment they need. What your friend experienced is an anomaly, not a normal event. What the govt is offering, death panel determining whether you receive treatment or not, would be a norm. Study UK's NICE system. It rations treatment according to age, severity of condition, & life expectancy.

[PatchesRips]

"You think the govt can do better the private?"

I don't "think", I KNOW. That's how it is here, and nobody wants to go back to the system we used to have, like yours. Let's be clear: all the government is doing is PAYING THE BILLS. The treatment is still being administered and decided upon by medical practitioners themselves... THEY JUST DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT HOW THEY'RE GETTING PAID ANYMORE, and we don't have to worry about losing our homes doing it.

[hoorano]

So you don 't mind if the govt becomes richer and in debt? Why is the US #1 in GDP? Private corporations makes it happen not the White House or Congress. Why do we have the best medical facilities in the world? Private HC has the liberty and uses their profit for R&D. Govt intrusion don't account for the greatness of the US.

[PatchesRips]

"So you don 't mind if the govt becomes richer and in debt?"

How could it do both at the same time?

"Why is the US #1 in GDP?"

It isn't; the EU is.

"Why do we have the best medical facilities in the world?"

Assuming this to be true, and of course "best" is subjective: why do 18,000 US citizens die annually because they have no access to those facilities?

[PatchesRips]

What the govt is offering, death panel determining whether you receive treatment or not"

No, that's what single-payer gets RID of. You already HAVE that in the US. HMOs do it every day to customers who've gotten too expensive. Here, if the doctors say it's medically necessary, then fine, it gets paid for. The government's not out to buy new yachts by letting you die... it's out to get you well (cynically, so you go back to work and keep paying taxes).

[hoorano]

Bullshit! We obviously differ here. To cut down on cost, govt must ration HC in a 1 payer system. Study NICE in the UK 1 single payer HC if you dare (google this). Their govt determines if medical treatment is worthwhile. In Oregon, a woman was denied life saving drugs and offered assisted suicide since the the drugs were too expensive for their budget. The co. which made the drugs paid for the drugs and this woman is still alive. Death panel in a 1 payer HC is for real.

[PatchesRips]

"In Oregon, a woman was denied life saving drugs and offered assisted suicide since the the drugs were too expensive for their budget."

You're saying this as though it were part and parcel of any such program. It's not a function of it where I live, and it needn't be where you live unless you allow such legislation to be proposed and passed. Don't blame Oregon and don't blame me; we have nothing to do with how single-payer would be shaped wherever you happen to live. Unless you live in Oregon.

[PatchesRips]

And you're talking about one sore example here. How many hundreds of thousands of Americans have died because their HMOs pulled the plug on their benefits because THEY were getting too expensive? This happens every single day, and they're not offered an easy out like euthanasia when it happens, either. They're just expected to go crawl off and die in misery and pain someplace.

[hoorano]

If 1 payer hc comes to the US, incidents like this will be the norm like UK. Face it. Euthanasia is a built in part of 1 payer to cut cost. This is my fear, not fear mongering.

[PatchesRips]

"Euthanasia is a built in part of 1 payer to cut cost."

It doesn't exist here. It's up to you to make sure it isn't instituted there, not the rest of us. Can you manage that?

[paulc1939]

This bill would cover all illegal aliens and invite the seriously sick people in the world to come to the US for free health care. Why do they want to provide all necessary health care to anyone who can make it to the US? No other country does this or proposes to do this. Limit eligibility to those legally in the country, and I will fully support this bill. Keep it as it is, and I will fight to change the eligibility portion or totally defeat it.

[bremckee]

Yea that's why every dead beat in the world is rushing to Canada. Are you kidding me? How can you talk about "illegals" when the lives of our own people are are the issue here.

[paulc1939]

You're right, they don't flock to Canada. Canada is not stupid, it limits eligibility to treatment in its health care system to, "a person lawfully entitled to be or to remain in Canada who makes his home and is ordinarily present in the province, but does not include a tourist, a transient or a visitor to the province."

My question is the same, why do our politicians want to provide health care to illegal aliens? Is this the poison pill to defeat a single payer system?

[kanani717]

I totally agree we cant allow illegals to benefit from this. But I read the bill and I believe that in the first or secound section it mentions that you have to do government regstration paperwork to verify who you are, which could fish out alot of the illegal aliens unless there is a huge idenity fraud issue.

[paulc1939]

I too read the bill; below is a direct quote from the bill.

SEC. 101. ELIGIBILITY AND REGISTRATION.

(a) IN GENERAL.—All individuals residing in the United States (including any territory of the United States) are covered under the USNHI Program entitling them to a universal, best quality standard of care. Each such individual shall receive a card with a unique number in the mail. An individuals social security number shall not be used for purposes of registration under this section.

[kanani717]

I am not sure if that includes illegalls though, does it mean all indvidual "citizens" or "all illegal ailens as well"? It is kinda vague about the requirements to register. I do think that its a bad idea to not use your SS number for registration though....

[skooterjoe]

From HR676:

SEC. 101. Eligibility and registration.

(a) In general.—All individuals residing in the United States (including any territory of the United States) are covered under the USNHI Program entitling them to a universal, best quality standard of care.

--

Yes, citizenship is not a requirement. Since illegal immigrants often already create a financial drain on our medical infrastructure I see this bill as a way of covering them officially rather than hiding it away in some subsidy.

[paulc1939]

Everyone seems to think someone else will pay the bill for health care. Politicians lie to us and say the wealthy will pay, or savings will cover the cost. These two sources of money would go a long way to covering the costs for US citizens, but include tens of millions of low skill/low wage illegal aliens under this program and the costs will sky rocket. The illegal aliens whether granted amnesty or not will be a huge cost center but will contribute very little.

[ubuibiok]

We are already paying there bills....

non-refunded cost to your local clinics and county Hospitals are paid for by the Local Taxes collected and spent to cover the cost needed to keep them open and staffed in order to treat the non or under Insured , period.

We also paying for 911 EMT response to Automobile accidents of witch 75 % of the dispatches are for non-emergencies and just being used to establish the foundation for future Law Suits .

[ninaseren]

We need this bill. I have witness first the horrors of private healthcare insurance as well as the downs of not having insurance and I am fustrated aswell what we are subjected. It is time we get Universal Health Care.

[FilterSelect]

Write to your local member? umm... stop working! everyone, all at once.... if you stop, they gotta listen....

Glad I don't live there....

[odetomy]

We need HR 676!! Health care is a human right!!

[hoorano]

Where is this clause in the constitution?

[PatchesRips]

"Where is this clause in the constitution? "

It would nice if you could learn to preface your questions and responses with something like a context.

[818jessejames]

LET`S ALL DO THIS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

[hottdog3]

Dennis Kucinich is right in so many ways. Although there are a couple of issues of his that I disagree with, but Single Payer Not-For-Profit Health Care is a top priority for this country. Please support Dennis all the way!....You won't go wrong!

[nohealthcare62]

Vital to All Americans and anyone else who is sick .If you get sick in France they treat you like a Human Being ..America cares more for DOGS AND CATS than Human Beings ever see the Humane commercilas ? They dont have people who are uninsured and dying on commercials ..