My dad but many Koreans who were in the loop on the early days and there were so many lies and cover ups. I will address this post morein a few days when I have more time. But in the meantime look up a guy named John Hancock to start and read his experience and findings from mdk, TSD, sbd
@clinganc I think you believe very strongly in your training and I have much respect for that. In fact, I would love to discuss our philosophies on why we train and I feel that it can be quite a constructive and enlightening dialog for both of us. Firstly however, I’d just want to address and give my thoughts on the stories about lies and tension in the past (not just about Hancock’s talk about the pyung ahn forms, but with everything) order to turn this conversation from a negative into a
@clinganc much more positive one. Thank you for the suggestion of the articles, I read a few of them a long time ago and at the time I did some deep thinking and concluded to something in my personal philosophies on the subject.
By your information of when your father started I would assume you are around my age, late 20s early 30s? I began around 1988. Over time I’ve gotten to know a reasonable amount of people who had trained at that time as well, and of course, they had their opinions
@clinganc which were as strong as those who told you their stories. I don’t feel like rebutting and explaining with the other side, because I feel it would do nothing but to create conflict between our two points of view, and I don’t wish for conflict between martial arts. Instead, our martial arts (really any of the martial arts) should be bringing us a sense of respect and kinship through our training and the struggles and challenges that we all endure in order to advance in our respective
Pertaining to my opinion, I think it would be accurate to say this: KJN Hwang Kee was a man, as is your Father, as are the people to whom we have spoken, as are you and I (I believe I am talking to a man, if not, please let me know and I apologize). Either way, what I mean when I say ‘man’, is we are human, and we, (you and I) were not there at the time. Therefore, the saying ‘there are two sides to every story’ would apply here.
@clinganc would always have a bias to our sides. But wouldn’t a story tend to seem more accurate if we attempt to see things from the outside? When looking at both sides from an outside point of view, we see that they were, or are, all human beings and both sides were doing what they felt was right in their beliefs and personal philosophies.. A more lighthearted and contemporary analogy for this would be the occasional sitcom on TV where two people recount their sides of the story of a
@clinganc of a situation to a third person, and of course, they make the other person seem like an ogre while the other side is completely innocent of any wrong doing.
Now, I never met or knew KJN Hwang Kee like other people may have. When I was a kid, he was at my Dan Shim Sa and once I did a small demonstration where he was present and he gave me a pat on the shoulder. But KJN Hwang Hyun Chul was and is my instructor from when I began at a young age. So I’ve known him through some years
@clinganc and he is a man who exhibits a strong Moo Do Jaseh (meaning that he conveys a certain presence and behavior that would be consistent with that of a martial artist) and Kyum Son at all times, but he is also a man just like any of us and I’m sure he may have his own opinions on past events as well. However, I’ve never really seen him or heard him denigrate or bad-mouth another person or organization to any of the students or even in any talks about history. I think this sets a good
@clinganc good example, for people like you and me. What I mean is, you and I were not there firsthand in a situation that happened between people, and any stories that we are told will always have biases. However, I think that as a new(er) generation of practitioners we should set an example (as my KJN has unknowingly done for me) for the newest practitioners, the children, the teens and the 20-somethings and we should let the old tensions die. Instead we should be focused on the mutual
@clinganc respects for those of us all who train hard and, as said before, overcome challenges to advance in our chosen art of study. It’s then that we can bring about a certain kind of peace between these opposing ways of thinking and learn from each other, instead of causing conflict.
KJN told a few of us once (and I’m paraphrasing here) that the Moo Duk Kwan is bigger than him, is bigger than the founder, it’s bigger than us, because it’s about the ‘idea and beliefs and not just the physical
@clinganc martial art. Now, you had mentioned that you didn’t follow KJN Hwang Kee’s later teachings, but would an article from 1982 be early enough? I won’t send it to you unless you ask, I’m not trying to bombard you with links and quotes. But in the article he talks about bringing about a peace and harmony through training and learning to eliminate inner and outer conflict, which had been a consistent theme with him throughout the years. Now even though you are not Moo Duk Kwan
@clinganc , I would think that your version of TSD still carries a similar set of messages and values to its practitioners, even if it has evolved. Wouldn’t it be much better for two martial artists like us to set an example and show the later generations of our students, siblings, or our children, the positive aspects of the martial arts, in order to lead them better into a future with more harmony between the arts rather than conflict?
@clinganc I realize I wrote a lot of stuff here so I won't go on a new subject. I think it was important though to try and bring a new way of thinking about the old stories, because anything that happened, happened between people when we were not there, and the next generation will be twice-removed from the people involved. And if we try to teach the later generations our versions, we are only creating a resentment between groups of people who will have even less insight than we do.
@clinganc About the SBD demos, most usually tend to stress the art because we work on defining our technique to the minute details, so to give an additional life long challenge. But wouldn't you say that it is a bit of a general statement to say that SBD students do not practice application while TSD students do? I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of people in these arts. Don't you think that certain people, on both sides, like you and I would take time and deeply explore its application?
@zo31017 staying I'm shape and mental wellness would be 2 and 3 respectively. As far as Gm Hwang Kee is concerned imo he was a great influence on the martial arts obviously but several authors and researchers have tried to cross reference and prove a lot of what he has said regarding his training and development of TSD and a majority of what has been found has been lies. Not sure how long you've studied but I have the benefit of learning and speaking to many first gen TSD practioners not just my
@zo31017 again thats your iterpretation of sbd. Yes ot can be an ok art for mental and physical well being. But as far as what I've personally seen demonstrated I have get to c a practical application. As far as any of Gm Hwang Kees later philosophies I don't study them therefore much of what you ask me I can't answer. As far as my reason for learning martial arts other than being born into a family where my father is a lifelong TSD practitioner since 62 or so self defense is number 1 on my list
This is not about real combat. This is about controling energy and focus towards shim gung (mind power). Fighting is such a small factor. Unless you need to fight. If you need to fight, you will have the tools to get the job done.
Why some 1st gen students of hwang kee splintered, the stuff sbd teaches is not what hwang kee originally taught. It's impractical for real combat. Mentally its good and has sum good aspects but realistically you would not last a min w a true tang soo do practicioner. U c we can separate and teach the realistic side if things. Why waste time and energy on things that r non effective and can get u hurt
@clinganc Your responses here seem very negative and I'm so sorry you feel this way. I will say that I do train under Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Hyun Chul and therefore I will of course be biased. But even so let's take Hwang Kee's philosophy on 'ryu pa', under this way of thinking, shouldn't one expect that things change over time? I think the change of how we used to train much more tensely and now it has become an attempt at much smoother technique. And I do see know that some of KJN Hwang Kee's
@clinganc students broke off, which is a very unfortunate thing. But not one that I wish to dwell on or take sides upon, because it brings unnecessary negativity to the mind and I think it would go against Hwang Kee's vision of bringing people together through our training and positive human relations. As for how things are taught being non-applicable to real life combat confrontations...I would believe that KJN Hwang Hyung Chul, has indeed attempted to continue the work of his father,
@clinganc But someone has to remember that even for KJN Hwang Kee as he became older his personal philosophies on our connection to Nature became very important in his practice of martial arts... and it's there that his son also wants to make sure is not forgotten...especially as all practitioners grow older and wiser. Let's take a few quotes from the Moo Do Chul Hahk (Martial Way Philosophy) written by KJN Hwang Kee... "By promoting a natural lifestyle for all mankind, it promotes the
@clinganc inclination towards developing humane people, who are virtuous, for it is such people who are able to manifest happiness, health, tranquility, freedom, and equality....The reason for this belief is that all material things in this world have an end, while the principles of Nature have no end and are vast....Philosophy is the field of learning that looks at the laws and principles that form the basis of mankind... For this reason, the most important thing in this world is philosophy."
@clinganc Those quotes were taken from pg 92-93. As for the Soo Bahk Do combat application, it is there, but it depends on what part of the art you wish to practice and pursue. An older practitioner may not be able to deal with training for heavy combat that is taxing on the body. Where as younger people like my brother and I, enjoy learning new applications that we can study and learn either on our own, through someone else or through the fundamentals that are learned in hyungs.
@clinganc Hyungs are my favorite place to learn application though not the only place. The reason being is that, so many people don't see, it's not necessarily the exact moves in the hyungs that are used for application. It's the underlying fundamentals and details in how the body moves, how the person breathes, and how the intent and the mind controls all this and brings it together (weh gung, neh gung & shim gung). When a person takes those, if he/she wishes, it can be applied if practiced.
@clinganc Even then the fundamentals must be practiced and explored, and implemented. It takes hours upon hours of training to do it, so the responsibility rests on the practitioner because as we all know, not all practitioners will go home and train on their free time. This is also another way of interpreting KJN Hwang Kee's statement that "The martial artist should also be a scholar." I think this applies in any way that someone would pursue the art.
@tinkerthing5 imo your right his foot should have been pointed forward. Don't mind the arrogance of these ppl as they don't know any better, I to study the teachings of his fathers earlier form tang soo do, don't get it confused w soo bahk do and yes I trace my lineage to hwang kee also just don't agree w the bs lies and crappy teachings that soo bahk do represents, I just hope u sbd students learn and ask questions and get a chance to really apply these stances in real life cause then you'll c
@mpannulla lol typical sbd brainwashed attitude toward others questioning the art. I agree his foot should b pointed forward, but lemme guess you've asked n been told just do it that way w no real reasoning behind it other than he's hwang kees son so he must know
Comment removed
zo31017 4 weeks ago
Comment removed
zo31017 4 weeks ago
My dad but many Koreans who were in the loop on the early days and there were so many lies and cover ups. I will address this post morein a few days when I have more time. But in the meantime look up a guy named John Hancock to start and read his experience and findings from mdk, TSD, sbd
clinganc 4 weeks ago
@clinganc I think you believe very strongly in your training and I have much respect for that. In fact, I would love to discuss our philosophies on why we train and I feel that it can be quite a constructive and enlightening dialog for both of us. Firstly however, I’d just want to address and give my thoughts on the stories about lies and tension in the past (not just about Hancock’s talk about the pyung ahn forms, but with everything) order to turn this conversation from a negative into a
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc much more positive one. Thank you for the suggestion of the articles, I read a few of them a long time ago and at the time I did some deep thinking and concluded to something in my personal philosophies on the subject.
By your information of when your father started I would assume you are around my age, late 20s early 30s? I began around 1988. Over time I’ve gotten to know a reasonable amount of people who had trained at that time as well, and of course, they had their opinions
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc which were as strong as those who told you their stories. I don’t feel like rebutting and explaining with the other side, because I feel it would do nothing but to create conflict between our two points of view, and I don’t wish for conflict between martial arts. Instead, our martial arts (really any of the martial arts) should be bringing us a sense of respect and kinship through our training and the struggles and challenges that we all endure in order to advance in our respective
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc paths.
Pertaining to my opinion, I think it would be accurate to say this: KJN Hwang Kee was a man, as is your Father, as are the people to whom we have spoken, as are you and I (I believe I am talking to a man, if not, please let me know and I apologize). Either way, what I mean when I say ‘man’, is we are human, and we, (you and I) were not there at the time. Therefore, the saying ‘there are two sides to every story’ would apply here.
What I mean is your story and my story
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc would always have a bias to our sides. But wouldn’t a story tend to seem more accurate if we attempt to see things from the outside? When looking at both sides from an outside point of view, we see that they were, or are, all human beings and both sides were doing what they felt was right in their beliefs and personal philosophies.. A more lighthearted and contemporary analogy for this would be the occasional sitcom on TV where two people recount their sides of the story of a
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc of a situation to a third person, and of course, they make the other person seem like an ogre while the other side is completely innocent of any wrong doing.
Now, I never met or knew KJN Hwang Kee like other people may have. When I was a kid, he was at my Dan Shim Sa and once I did a small demonstration where he was present and he gave me a pat on the shoulder. But KJN Hwang Hyun Chul was and is my instructor from when I began at a young age. So I’ve known him through some years
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc and he is a man who exhibits a strong Moo Do Jaseh (meaning that he conveys a certain presence and behavior that would be consistent with that of a martial artist) and Kyum Son at all times, but he is also a man just like any of us and I’m sure he may have his own opinions on past events as well. However, I’ve never really seen him or heard him denigrate or bad-mouth another person or organization to any of the students or even in any talks about history. I think this sets a good
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc good example, for people like you and me. What I mean is, you and I were not there firsthand in a situation that happened between people, and any stories that we are told will always have biases. However, I think that as a new(er) generation of practitioners we should set an example (as my KJN has unknowingly done for me) for the newest practitioners, the children, the teens and the 20-somethings and we should let the old tensions die. Instead we should be focused on the mutual
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc respects for those of us all who train hard and, as said before, overcome challenges to advance in our chosen art of study. It’s then that we can bring about a certain kind of peace between these opposing ways of thinking and learn from each other, instead of causing conflict.
KJN told a few of us once (and I’m paraphrasing here) that the Moo Duk Kwan is bigger than him, is bigger than the founder, it’s bigger than us, because it’s about the ‘idea and beliefs and not just the physical
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc martial art. Now, you had mentioned that you didn’t follow KJN Hwang Kee’s later teachings, but would an article from 1982 be early enough? I won’t send it to you unless you ask, I’m not trying to bombard you with links and quotes. But in the article he talks about bringing about a peace and harmony through training and learning to eliminate inner and outer conflict, which had been a consistent theme with him throughout the years. Now even though you are not Moo Duk Kwan
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc , I would think that your version of TSD still carries a similar set of messages and values to its practitioners, even if it has evolved. Wouldn’t it be much better for two martial artists like us to set an example and show the later generations of our students, siblings, or our children, the positive aspects of the martial arts, in order to lead them better into a future with more harmony between the arts rather than conflict?
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc I realize I wrote a lot of stuff here so I won't go on a new subject. I think it was important though to try and bring a new way of thinking about the old stories, because anything that happened, happened between people when we were not there, and the next generation will be twice-removed from the people involved. And if we try to teach the later generations our versions, we are only creating a resentment between groups of people who will have even less insight than we do.
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@clinganc About the SBD demos, most usually tend to stress the art because we work on defining our technique to the minute details, so to give an additional life long challenge. But wouldn't you say that it is a bit of a general statement to say that SBD students do not practice application while TSD students do? I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of people in these arts. Don't you think that certain people, on both sides, like you and I would take time and deeply explore its application?
zo31017 4 weeks ago
@zo31017 staying I'm shape and mental wellness would be 2 and 3 respectively. As far as Gm Hwang Kee is concerned imo he was a great influence on the martial arts obviously but several authors and researchers have tried to cross reference and prove a lot of what he has said regarding his training and development of TSD and a majority of what has been found has been lies. Not sure how long you've studied but I have the benefit of learning and speaking to many first gen TSD practioners not just my
clinganc 4 weeks ago
@zo31017 again thats your iterpretation of sbd. Yes ot can be an ok art for mental and physical well being. But as far as what I've personally seen demonstrated I have get to c a practical application. As far as any of Gm Hwang Kees later philosophies I don't study them therefore much of what you ask me I can't answer. As far as my reason for learning martial arts other than being born into a family where my father is a lifelong TSD practitioner since 62 or so self defense is number 1 on my list
clinganc 4 weeks ago
A true master... perfect hyung!
gseasley2 2 months ago
This is not about real combat. This is about controling energy and focus towards shim gung (mind power). Fighting is such a small factor. Unless you need to fight. If you need to fight, you will have the tools to get the job done.
somrmojo 5 months ago 2
Why some 1st gen students of hwang kee splintered, the stuff sbd teaches is not what hwang kee originally taught. It's impractical for real combat. Mentally its good and has sum good aspects but realistically you would not last a min w a true tang soo do practicioner. U c we can separate and teach the realistic side if things. Why waste time and energy on things that r non effective and can get u hurt
clinganc 7 months ago
@clinganc Your responses here seem very negative and I'm so sorry you feel this way. I will say that I do train under Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Hyun Chul and therefore I will of course be biased. But even so let's take Hwang Kee's philosophy on 'ryu pa', under this way of thinking, shouldn't one expect that things change over time? I think the change of how we used to train much more tensely and now it has become an attempt at much smoother technique. And I do see know that some of KJN Hwang Kee's
zo31017 1 month ago
@clinganc students broke off, which is a very unfortunate thing. But not one that I wish to dwell on or take sides upon, because it brings unnecessary negativity to the mind and I think it would go against Hwang Kee's vision of bringing people together through our training and positive human relations. As for how things are taught being non-applicable to real life combat confrontations...I would believe that KJN Hwang Hyung Chul, has indeed attempted to continue the work of his father,
zo31017 1 month ago
@clinganc But someone has to remember that even for KJN Hwang Kee as he became older his personal philosophies on our connection to Nature became very important in his practice of martial arts... and it's there that his son also wants to make sure is not forgotten...especially as all practitioners grow older and wiser. Let's take a few quotes from the Moo Do Chul Hahk (Martial Way Philosophy) written by KJN Hwang Kee... "By promoting a natural lifestyle for all mankind, it promotes the
zo31017 1 month ago
@clinganc inclination towards developing humane people, who are virtuous, for it is such people who are able to manifest happiness, health, tranquility, freedom, and equality....The reason for this belief is that all material things in this world have an end, while the principles of Nature have no end and are vast....Philosophy is the field of learning that looks at the laws and principles that form the basis of mankind... For this reason, the most important thing in this world is philosophy."
zo31017 1 month ago
@clinganc Those quotes were taken from pg 92-93. As for the Soo Bahk Do combat application, it is there, but it depends on what part of the art you wish to practice and pursue. An older practitioner may not be able to deal with training for heavy combat that is taxing on the body. Where as younger people like my brother and I, enjoy learning new applications that we can study and learn either on our own, through someone else or through the fundamentals that are learned in hyungs.
zo31017 1 month ago
@clinganc Hyungs are my favorite place to learn application though not the only place. The reason being is that, so many people don't see, it's not necessarily the exact moves in the hyungs that are used for application. It's the underlying fundamentals and details in how the body moves, how the person breathes, and how the intent and the mind controls all this and brings it together (weh gung, neh gung & shim gung). When a person takes those, if he/she wishes, it can be applied if practiced.
zo31017 1 month ago
@clinganc Even then the fundamentals must be practiced and explored, and implemented. It takes hours upon hours of training to do it, so the responsibility rests on the practitioner because as we all know, not all practitioners will go home and train on their free time. This is also another way of interpreting KJN Hwang Kee's statement that "The martial artist should also be a scholar." I think this applies in any way that someone would pursue the art.
zo31017 1 month ago
@tinkerthing5 imo your right his foot should have been pointed forward. Don't mind the arrogance of these ppl as they don't know any better, I to study the teachings of his fathers earlier form tang soo do, don't get it confused w soo bahk do and yes I trace my lineage to hwang kee also just don't agree w the bs lies and crappy teachings that soo bahk do represents, I just hope u sbd students learn and ask questions and get a chance to really apply these stances in real life cause then you'll c
clinganc 7 months ago
@mpannulla lol typical sbd brainwashed attitude toward others questioning the art. I agree his foot should b pointed forward, but lemme guess you've asked n been told just do it that way w no real reasoning behind it other than he's hwang kees son so he must know
clinganc 7 months ago
Comment removed
scotthosier 9 months ago
looks like the forms richard chun taught in his books Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. I enjoyed ur vids thanks.
jiggahippo 10 months ago
that was great but on your front stance the back foot looked like i needed to be pointed foward
Tinkerthing5 1 year ago
@Tinkerthing5 haha, do you even know who this guy is?
mpannulla 1 year ago
learning thisa form was fun
RTSstation 1 year ago