First Annual Keeping the Poor Man Down Meeting - Part 1

[joemadly]

u speak of logic and reason but if you yourself profit you wont see

u dont see the suffering because u are blind nor do u or will you ever experience poverty and starvation and i wish that you open your eyes to the hunger and the poor

and until you have a compassion that of a human being, you will not understand a word i said

offtopic

ragnarok was a good game until Gravity company goes NUMB with all the profit they got they became fat with wealth and lost their passion to maintain its creation

[kitoushiekj]

The points you make are interesting but I am confused as to why you are using sprites from an online game to illustrate your point.

[MotionFur]

oh, just for no real reason.

[PumpkinJoe999]

But that's assuming that minimum wage is below market value.

Also isn't it true that minimum wage can have a downward effect on wages in general for low skilled workers because low skilled workers will feel protected by minimum wage and thus will be less likely to negotiate or work to test the price of the labor they are selling?

[kurtilein3]

i just watched the first half of this video, the nonsense about the minimum wage.

you are wrong. what the minimum wage does is to draw a line between legitimate work and wage slavery. only some republican pundits and brainwashed neocons think that a higher minimum wage hurts the poor.

1 star.

[PumpkinJoe999]

Minimum wage does not garuntee the real wage. The cost of living has doubled over the past 8 years but wages haven't, and minimum wage certainly hasn't so what does it really do?

[kurtilein3]

pumpkinjoe:

that problem is not really related to minimum wages, that problem is called inflation. you can either set up a currency that doesnt inflate, or you can adjust the minimum wage for inflation. if the politicians let inflation eat away the minimum wage, then those politicians really dont want you to have a minimum wage and dont understand the benefits of it, or even worse, they dont see a problem with wage slavery and with unethical working conditions.

[Rybot9000]

Anyway, thanks for the video, it made me stop and think, and spend most of the evening on it. I recently subscribed for the antagonism to my view points, so I'll look forward to more discussion like this.

[MotionFur]

I'll have more. But i'm considering some the good points you've made here for sure, they'll have to seap in slowly though. As usual.

[Rybot9000]

There are a few market forces that I think Molyneaux overlooks, such as, the introduction of Bernaysian public relations, chartered corporations and consumerism. These are relatively new forces in economics which fundamentally change the direction of the economy and are arguably unnecessary hinderences to human prosperity.

[Rybot9000]

I see how this works in relation to skilled labor, but without minimum wage what is to stop employers of unskilled labour (flipping burgers) from paying their employees 15cents/hour

[MotionFur]

What stops fast food resturants from charging 20 dollars per burger?

It's competition. Competition for buisness drives the price of products or services down, the competition for employees drives the price of labor up.

[Rybot9000]

That doesn't work for a monopsony where competition is non-existent, and markets are increasingly monopsonistic. Without or without minimum wage laws Nike is still going to outsource labour costs to sweat shops in China. Why? Because they can, and their only concern is money, not jobs. Nike does this and then Reebok follows suit otherwise they have to charge more than Nike. Eventually all shoes are made in China. I'm not so satisfied with the profit-motive for this reason.

[Rybot9000]

If you could make human prosperity and environmental impact commodities we'd all be better off I think, but as it is corporations don't care, all they care about is money and that means labour exploitation in a free-market. Government regulations serve as an honor code keeping people's greed from dictating all that they do. Sure there will be negative effects as well.

[Rybot9000]

Stefan Molyneaux is a class act, here is a guy that consistently misrepresents the determinist position, and he has to in order to maintain his idealistic meritocricy. If he had to concede that humans were not strictly free-willing rational causative agencies, then he'd be forced to face the reality of mental retardation and abnormal prefrontal development, he'd be forced to acknowledge aboulia and all other manner of cognitive defecit borne out of a deterministic human psyche.

[Rybot9000]

That would throw a wrench in he whole idea that people succeed on their own efforts in a causal vacuum, which is the justification for anarcho-capitalism and free-market economics. These systems are based on individual greed which can only be justifiable if everyone is causa sui. Or you discard any concern you have for the equality of all human life and stay trapped in his myopic, self-centered grasping for power and liberty.

[MotionFur]

"self-centered grasping for power and liberty."

Like, politicians?

Molyneaux clearly has a messed up philosophy, espessially when it comes to ethics and free will. But he has an understand of economic forces.

[Rybot9000]

That is the nature of the human ego, to grasp for power and liberty, and those who try hardest, who have the hardest hearts, will invariably succeed in obtaining that power. Thus democracy is fruitful in off-setting that result by placing power in the hands of millions of uneducated and illinformed sports fans. In Molyneaux's anarcho-capitalism these power-hungry beasts will secure power with ease and strip the masses of any freedom they had in a democracy.

[MotionFur]

"That is the nature of the human ego"

I agree. And we should have a system that works with that, not against that. Becuase if you have a state, a 'letigimized' institution of force, then those who have those "hardened hearts" will eventually gain control of it. As they clearly already have.

But democracy, eh? I haven't really talked to any democracy supporters. Most people generally support a republic, like in the united states.

[Rybot9000]

Constitutional democracy.

You need a system that is conducive to the human ego, but not supportive of it. The current economic system is entirely supportive of ego, it encourages individuals to serve only themselves and largely disregard the lives of others. When you have a system of success and excess, by its very institution you have failure and poverty, inequality. Your place in it is determined by the laws of nature and not because you self-created.

[Rybot9000]

The human ego can be controlled, for example people agreeing to an honor code universally do not cheat or steal. Without an honor code 90% of people cheat or steal. The human mind is a system of meta-representationalism and currently we lay down a foundation of supreme egoism upon our children's minds. Thus justifying a system based on that quality of ego, its a circular system of self-affirmation.

[MotionFur]

Isn't that what we have here in the US? Why have a constitution if it wont be followed?

[Rybot9000]

That's what I was saying; I agree with a republic or constitutional democracy.

The constitution isn't an end-all and be-all, it can be ammended and has been several times, But for many people it serves as a foundation of mental activity, an honor code to uphold. Its like Magna Carta in that way, except that it is also the foundation of law, as it should be. So you have a free-system, backed by a semi-unalterable code.

[MotionFur]

I don't see how a system like that wont lead to a state that is governed by those with the "hardened hearts" and the constitution perverted to the will of those who have attained the status that allows them to do that.

[Rybot9000]

It probably will, but that goes back to the mental foundations ingrained into us. We are led to believe that the new camera with 2x more gigapixels and a bigger SD card will buy us happiness and it fundamentally will not. It will just keep us grasping for the latest and greatest model. We are led to believe that owning a Jag will bring us social and sexual success, and the only reason it might is because we are led to believe that, so we value people who own Jags as successes.

[Rybot9000]

I say, it all comes back to the basic values of a culture. Historically, the USA valued equal human rights to life and liberty, but it has become increasingly about financial, social and sexual success and individiual identity and less about human equality. If that is the foundational value of a culture, then it can only expect to give birth to an ego-centric citizenry that will be grasping for power.

[MotionFur]

"It probably will"

That's the main reason i'm an anti-statist. It seams clear to me that if there is a state, it will eventually collapse the economy under it, or oppress the people so bad they revolt and war blah blood blah blah.

If there's only a 50/50, or 20/80 chance at a stateless society actually being sustained. I'd take it.

[Rybot9000]

I think you will find that the chance is more like 0.000000001% that a stateless society would work. Chances are humans would lose all sense of cohesion and public duty and resort back to public beheadings and stonings. Without a proper authoritive institution people descend into violence and... anarchy. I say, all systems would work, communism, capitalism, anarchism, if humans were not human. But because we are, there is no perfect answer to the imperfect human. We need a balance.

[MotionFur]

I don't think it is that low of a chance. Essentially every person needs a "religion." Eh? A set of beliefs and ethics and whatnot? A rallying point like socialism or christianity?

Public duty? Government kills the idea of civil duty as far as I can tell. Loo

[Rybot9000]

Well, the mind evolves from infancy to adulthood and the truly mature mind does not need a code such as religion, but for many infantile minds it keeps them from egregious acts. Its an upward progression from simplistic idealism to mature realism that we all undertake individually with the guidance of our culture. I'm also sure we'll be arguing our differences to our graves and none of us will epitomize sanity.

[horny4bears]

bah,infantile mind,can not be used in that setup. Children do fine with out religion indoctrination. Infact i'd argue they do better,since the whole undoing what was once set in place for mind control,does not need to be undone.IF IT CAN EVER BE

As for sanity, science is well on the way to do it,as the neural networks of the minds mysteries are mapped out

how did this turn into theocracy 101,I was learning more reasons to be against min. wage inc.,besides feeling less valuable for my skills

[MotionFur]

Well, the word 'religion' is being used in a more flexible sense.

[horny4bears]

After seeing part 2, I face palmed myself. In seeing how religion entered into the scene 8P

[Rybot9000]

Children are introduced to concepts usually with fables. Some religions are like fables for adults.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of how neural networks work. If scholarpedia is anything to go by. It seems to affirm my position that people understand concepts by gradual adjustment of representations. A neural network has to be trained to represent its stimuli, the brain/mind consisting of meta-representations. Thus its a clumsy progression from infancy to adulthood.

[Rybot9000]

Neural networks learn to represent concepts artificially by adjusting their synaptic weights and organizing themselves. This happens according to Hebb's Law, essentially "cells that fire together wire together". So as a brain experiences reality it gradually tunes its perception to reality. The brain's reward system activates when it makes correct predictions based on accurate models. If a model is incorrect it tends to result in failure and thus punishment (discomfort).

[Rybot9000]

Consequently people tend to settle into belief systems, models of reality which have predictive or self-assuring qualities to them. The Holy Bible as an example of such a model of reality feeds into the desires of the human ego. To be like Gods amongst animals, rather than just animals. If you ask me that is the whole point of it, its not anything special. It provides a bunch of riddles and parables that are immediately attractive to the infant. People don't like graphs and 8 hour lectures.

[Rybot9000]

They turn away from it, fight against it. People are very needy and self-absorbed. They are attracted to ideas that puff themselves up. Such people are not going to be interested in anything neuroscience has to say. Even that the Bible itself speaks of humans as dust and vapor. Eternal life is an illusive concept juxtaposed by bleak descriptions of humans. Simultaneously we are described as marvelous and wretched. You can see whatever you want in it, and its kind of great literature in that way.

[horny4bears]

hmmm.. yeps, ok. that I'll nod along with you on. I just have a hare trigger, when I see the amount of damage these children can cause before they finally can fire the synaptic junction to face palm themselves, at how foolish it was to take a fable seriously. (once more, if they ever can reach that conclusion)

I have yet to be treated as wretchedly by any other culture, like the people from the abrahamic gods.Not saying its impossible for others to do that; just havnt had the...experience, yet.

[MotionFur]

"Government regulations serve as an honor code"

Yep, the code of get the hell out of the country if you want to be successful. This nation we live in, that used to have the fastest trains, the tallest buildings, the longest bridges, and the most rapidly increasing quality of life is not becoming second banana to the countries that are willing to allow more econimic freedom. But at least we have "honor."

[Rybot9000]

That's fairly presumptuous, Canada has minimum wage laws, and far more market regulations, public health services and the like. Canada ranks well above the USA on any measure of prosperity. Canada also has a fairly tall CN tower.

[AnarchistOpposition]

Wage laws are almost certainly a negative in a truely free capitalist society, but what about one such as ours that is dominated by corporations? This is what I was refering to as the other edge of the double edged sword. If there were no minimum wage laws, corporations would surely benefit enourmously. For example, in my old town, walmart closed out all other competing stores so that it was the only choice for jobs, that would have been worse without minimum wage. Overall you are correct tho xD

[MotionFur]

Even in our society, the effects of minimum wage laws are on the whole, bad.

Walmart was the only choice for jobs? Must have been a tiny town. As far as i understand, a single walmart is only going to [directly] employ 100-400 people.

[AnarchistOpposition]

On the whole yes, altho they do limit corporate power to a very small extent, which I vastly appreciate. (altho it isnt worth all the negatives)

Not the only Job choice persay, but the only general store, clothing store, grocery store, gas station, etc. Well, there was also a sam's club... but... same company xD

and no, When I lived there it was imbetween 3000 and 3500