Regardless of whether or not I deny his existence, I am not logically bound to accept his existence without evidence. You are claiming he exists, and it is up to you to demonstrate that.
But, the Bible is not evidence of God. The Bible is the claim that God exists. You can't use the claim as the evidence. You must use sources external to the Bible. "Trying to prove God with the Bible is like trying to prove Superman with a comic book."
@TheSkepticalAtheist It's not up to me to prove that God exists, you've been given all you need to find out for yourself. You have been given the choice, it's up to you to find the truth.
The Bible isn't needed to prove God's existence, the world's full of evidence if you know what to look for.
You think to use logic to disprove God who gave us the laws of logic. Good luck.
Truth isn't bound by our standards, it stands on it's own, no matter what you choose to believe.
On the contrary. It is up to you to prove God exists, since you insist that he does. Logically speaking, the one making the claim has to prove that the claim is true. Until proof is provided, I am under no obligation whatsoever to accept it as true.
If you can say God exists without providing evidence, and that I must believe it, then I say you must believe in Unicorns and I'm not going to provide any evidence that they exist. There is no difference between the two scenarios.
So... Your opinion is that your opinion was not an opinion but a logical argument? What exactly was logical about it?
You assume that all crimes are finite yet you do not consider the possibility of infinite repercussions from certain crimes. Like turning your back on the one who has granted you salvation from your sin.
Do you really think it is unimportant to know all perspectives to make an informed decision? Not very wise.
Do I even have to claim you aren't as smart as God?
Okay, this whole argument is hypothetical in nature, because I'm granting you the idea that God even exists. So it's useless to try to say that some being that you can't even describe is "smarter" than me. You couldn't even know how "smart" this God is if you can't describe him.
Let's take one "crime" that your God believes is worthy of punishment FOREVER: eating shellfish. Oh yeah? That's worthy of being on fire for eternity? What perspective is this that you have?
Interesting thoughts though you make a mistake by comparing punishment to correct ones actions in this life to the final punishment at the end of this life.
The final punishment is not designed to correct our actions. You life is over, there is no second chance, that is why it is so important to get yourself right with God in this life.
God has given us all we need to find Him, the bible (His Word) as our guide, our law and Jesus as our Savior to cover us for our sins and show us the way.
@TheSkepticalAtheist So you, being less child like than your creator think you are in a good position to call his final judgement childish?
Hmmm... I think you comment suddenly carries little weight.
You are lacking the correct perspective.
"Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?" Isa 29:16
And what understanding do you have that God does not?
No perspective can justify infinite punishment for finite crimes. I can say with 100% confidence that I am morally superior to any being who could even contemplate punishing another for eternity for crimes committed within an 80-year time span.
And that Bible verse is a false analogy. Humans are not clay. They are not objects. They are moral agents, as is the god you believe exists. To use your analogy, god can treat us any way he wants and it's moral because we are just objects.
@TheSkepticalAtheist 'No perspective can justify infinite punishment for finite crimes.' And how can you make that assertion when you do not know all perspectives? Your opinion once again holds no weight.
You then state with 100% confidence your ignorance of crimes that have eternal consequences.
False analogy? No, false perception. It is a metaphorical statement to try help you understand your position. You the creation accusing the creator he does not understand.
It's not an opinion. It's a logical argument. Until you can demonstrate that it is Just to punish someone for eternity for a finite "crime," I'm left to assume that it is unjust and immoral. I don't need to know "all perspectives." I just need to you show me THE perspective that deems infinite punishment for ANYTHING is moral and, in fact, NECESSARY. I submit that you cannot demonstrate such a thing.
In fact, you will only appeal to "mystery," or claim I'm not "as smart as God."
If hell is the eternal separation from God & everything Good is from God, then i think that explains why hell is immoral. It might mean that there, people won't be in God's protection anymore and so what ever happens, it has nothing to do with God anymore. another point about vengeful punishment, i agree with that too but not because God want to revenge, but rather fallen angels that have tremendous hate for God take revenge thru tormenting the creature that God loves so much.
Great video! even there's such as thing as hell and eternal damnation is completely, immoral I don't think even the biggest scumbag deserves eternal hell(although he would deserves some punishment according to his actions).
I don't understand how anyone could look at it any other way. I can't see anyone really believing that some action one could take is deserving of spending eternity in conscious torment. It reminds me of Orwell's 1984. Doublethink. People can believe in love and mercy and forgiveness; and at the same time believe that a person could deserve eternal conscious torment for the slightest offense.
Entertaining two contradictory ideas, while believing them both to be equally true.
@takerhbkfa I do not think immoral is the correct term to use. How can it be immoral if it was set up by the one who created morals? God is the only one who is completely moral so how can he be immoral?
Your perception of morality is mistaken.
You are implying that you have better moral judgement than God who created morals.
The problem with debating Christians is you will deal with mostly Catholics or Protestants. They are very legalistic and like to precisely define everything about the Christian faith and break down the unkowables into phylosophies emerging from the medievil times.
Ancient Christianity (Eastern) teaches that hell is determined by the individual in Gods presence. Under the presence of God's love, the guilt of sinning against love, unrepented torments the individual.
I'm just coming from scriptural terms here.....but my hobby is Carl Jung..who's theme was to unite the two sides of the psyche. Long story but I was aware that I had two extreme sides long ago and almost committed suicide because of it.
I completely understand what you're saying, and I can see where you're coming from. But, for myself, I can in no way personally justify blood sacrifice as a reasonable price for sin, when God knew full well beforehand that sin would occur.
He couldn't be that short-sighted and immature. It just seems that for blood sacrifice to atone of evil acts, there has to be some reason that the spilling of blood is pleasing to God. He wouldn't demand it if He abhorred the idea of human suffering.
I don't do literal....just symbolic. Sin and sufferings symbols were needed to cause suffering only for the widening of conscious. Consciousness is made from a tension of opposites...so in Christian terms the law of sin was needed in order to bring us to state of righteousness.....which few partake of...
Nice observation of not being able to squirm our way out of the law! Which was the intent the whole time......in hopes that people would see that Christ came to fulfill the law. He met the requirements demanded by law; which was to keep it! Romans 4
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of god keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him! 1 John 5:18
By stating this, you are admitting that God created man knowing that he would sin. Not only that he had previous knowledge of sin, but also that God still was stirred to anger when it happened.
One could only conclude from this that God Himself is responsible for the existence of sin. Had He even considered the fact that people would inevitably be sent to Hell, the only responsible, moral thing to do would have been to not create humans in the first place.
He doesn't desire suffering, but all were held over as subjects of wrath in order that they may come to the knowledge of what Christ did for them...without the law of suffering of not being able to keep it...I was able to receive the greater purpose of what Christ did for me....to fulfill the law in order to make me clean!! There is no more sin!
You're missing the point. The point is that once you're in Hell, there is no chance to alter your behavior. Hell can't be considered "punishment" if there's no chance to change your behavior following the punishment. You're on fire forever.
"The point is that once you're in Hell, there is no chance to alter your behavior. Hell can't be considered "punishment" if there's no chance to change your behavior following the punishment."
VERY, VERY FEW people come out of jail or prison rehabilitated. Most come out with more anger and bitterness than when they went in. HELL IS NOT a place of rehabilitation. IT IS A PLACE OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.
But you're missing the point. The point of punishment is to rehabilitate. Whether or not it works is not the issue.
Hell cannot be defined as punishment because there is, again, no chance to alter the behavior in question. It isn't punishment, it's revenge. Revenge on man for behaving within the bounds of how he was created. God gave us Free Will and is seeking his revenge for us using it.
Give people the capability of acting a certain way, then get pissed off when they do. Sounds reasonable.
GOD TAKES NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED. He is not willing that any perish but that all come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9. It isnt Gods will that any should perish. God doesnt send anyone to Hell the same way a righteous Judge doesnt delight in sending anyone to prison. The criminals crime sends him to prison. The Judge merely executes justice. In the case of our Salvation, God prefers mercy over Judgment but if WE REFUSE His mercy we will get exactly what we choose and deserve.
I'm still not sure how you can justify this, after hearing what I've said about punishment, and what the purpose of punishment is. Would it not be enough to simply separate those who were "evil" from those who are "good," or "saved?"
This idea of eternal torment does not serve to teach a lesson, as they have no opportunity to modify their behavior following the punishment. It's simply a method of revenge-seeking, and this is not in line with the character of a God that I would ever worship.
The purpose of HELL is not to teach a lesson or rehabilitate. It is ETERNAL PUNISHMENT for those who reject God's gift of redemption. Your life is NOT ABOUT YOU. It has NEVER been about you. God CREATED you for His purpose. But instead, you have chosen to live in rebellion to God and to reject his gift of eternity with Him. Your life of SELFISHNESS will be Judged by Christ who died for you, not God. Your beef is not with God but with Christ.
Yet again, you don't understand the definition of punishment. Maybe you missed that entire section in my video.
Punishment is designed to correct behavior. If you are in Hell for eternity, there is no opportunity to correct the behavior... therefore, Hell is God's place of revenge. Childish and reprehensible. And if you sincerely believe what you're saying, I can comfortably say that my morals are far superior to yours.
What about those who are sent to prison for life? We would define that as punishment but there is no opportunity to correct behavior: no parol: no appeals.
How is this considered different from Hell? Im not one in favor of eternal punishment nor do I think It makes sense
Taking into account that we live in the physical world, we have certain limitations when it comes to criminals - especially those of the more violent type... murderers. Essentially, life without parole is our way of taking those who are dangerous to society and removing them.
What we don't do is lock people up somewhere and set them on fire. Any rational person knows that this, even temporarily, is not a just punishment for ANY crime. Yet, people can somehow justify this when God does it.
Forget it. It's like talking to a brick wall. The guy thinks that it would be just for an earthly judge to kill his son so a serial killer can go free.
When God gives us "free will", then it IS about us. Sorry. If your God wanted it to all about himself, he shouldn't have created anyone else. Your God is just a baby who can't stand that anybody disagrees with him. No amount of apologetics will make your God worthy of worship.
"When God gives us "free will", then it IS about us."
INCORRECT. God created you for HIS PURPOSE but you were given free will to reject Him. God doesn't care if you disagree with Him. You are under the false assumption that your life is somehow valuable to Him. I can assure you...it is not.
Buried underneath all of this pretentiousness and lame apologetics lies a very obvious, deep-seated desire to see other human beings suffer. Whether it's using God as an excuse or not, there is a lot of language here speaking of people as "worthless." But God supposedly cares so much for us that the very hairs of our head are numbered...
This contradicts bornagain001's idea that we are not valuable to God. Bornagain hates humanity and he salves his ego by wishing eternal suffering on others.
Your hairs are numbered. What does that have to do with the value of your life to God. God does love you enough to send HIS SON to die so that you do not have to. And since God is love ...love is always about relationships. If you have no personal relationship with Jesus Christ...your life has NO VALUE. 50 years from now...the odds are you will be dead. What value did the life of President Calvin Coolidge have on you....none..so your life will have even less value.
In the course of this discussion, we need to keep in mind a fact that I had mentioned in the very beginning of this video, which is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Bible actually teaches there is a place called "Hell," where people go to suffer for eternity.
I would challenge you, bornagain001, to show me specifically in the Bible where you believe the doctrine of eternal punishment stems from... citing specific Bible verses. I submit that you'll find none.
who CHOOSES to go to hell? Why would anyone CHOOSE to go? If we had FREEWILL, then why has there not been one person who has chosen NOT TO GO TO HELL? If you agree with the doctrine of man being "depraved" and "born within sin"; then you agree that there is no "freewill" (acting without: influence, prior causes, outside control, etc.) but, only being within the bounds of causality. How can you be CREATED FOR HIS PURPOSE and reject him, acting independently(from God's will?)?
And even to say that man is depraved, or born within sin doesn't really answer the question. To say that man IS something begs the question... how did man become that way? He was created that way. God created man depraved, within sin, or capable of sin.
So we're left with the vision of a God creating man with Free Will, perfectly capable of sin. Isn't it reasonable to believe that since man was created with the ability to sin, therefore man will sin? I consider it ignorant to believe otherwise.
wow. yes, very interesting angle there. never thought of it that way. very well said.(sorry, have stitches on left hand - hard 2 type) anyway, that is why I now like listening to L. Ray Smith. I don't agree w/ all he says, but he takes on things like this and subject matter you will never hear in today's churches( at least not in the logical manner like you are doing now)
man will sin. its whether he finds salvation, is the issue.
for a lot of people, Jesus is the only salvation, their sin is so great. and it is a very real salvation. it allows a rethinking of the purpose of life.
I understand what you're saying, but can you see where I'm coming from? My hope is that you can understand what my position is, and why I think the way I do about this.
Do you see why I might have a problem with God setting up a system of rules, then having to sacrifice Himself in order to create a loophole in those rules?
I was a Christian for a long time, and this particular issue was one of the things that I struggled with justifying. Why not just forgive people?
such is the imperfect, sporadic nature of human development. Jesus made the unfinished system complete. He unified the beginning to the end, creating an entire, fluid system of salvation. A complete unity.
We cant knock that! Surely you must see the benefits of this salvation? Do you not agree life is restored once a person comes to follow the Messianic teachings in Christ - and, through Him, of Moses?
But this unnecessary system was implemented to the detriment of all those who will spend eternity in eternal torment. Yeah, it might seem perfect for people who feel that they are destined to go to Heaven.
But, what about the people already in Hell? It's not such a perfect system for them. And for one to ascend into Heaven, to feel joy knowing what's happening to all of those in Hell... I don't care how good Heaven is. It could never make me forget about those suffering.
Homosexuals will be 'burnt with sulfur' - under any regime or law? Where did you come up with this? Science is beginning to show us that homosexuality is not a choice. And so, what you're saying is that God created homosexuals for the sole purpose of torturing them?
If God created the method of torture, He fully intended upon using it. And He knew that it would be inevitable that He would use it on people who had no choice but to be tortured eternally.Not a just situation
I do not believe it is a genetic thing at all. If it was a genetic thing, such people would not be born with the sexual organs they carry.
To say it is natural is a lie - stemming from Babylon and from the merchant. At the root of it you'll always find a disconnection from True Wisdom - and an embracing (consciously or unconsciously) of men's own corrupt supposed 'wisdom' - (PC) ; such wisdom comes not from a pure source.
You're free to disbelieve, but your denial of homosexuality as genetic has a severe problem. It fails to account for the fact that homosexuality is not unique to human beings. Many species of animals practice it as well.
But, if you insist on denying reality and the findings of science, we don't have much else to discuss here. You can continue to believe despite what we know to be reality, but we will never see eye-to-eye because you aren't reasoning from reality.
Science is just compiled information and names for that information. I am not going to oppose 'science as a whole' but I will say that human relationships and the dynamics and problems of day to day life find more satisfaction and solution in scripture. The tenets of love God and love your neighbor can only lead to a robust spirit
Do you disagree that homosexuals get more or less 'lynched' globally? Is it taught?
Stoning disobedient children, killing witches and wizards, death to those who work on the Sabbath. From a book filled with such disregard for human life, one can only expect to find such nonsense as instructions to murder those whose sexual preference is different from the norm.
The whole thing is an excuse to justify racism, elitism and bigotry. The Bible literally instructs Christians to kill other human beings based upon how they were born. It's madness.
you misunderstand what the Gospel means. All those things you just mentioned as negatives, the Gospel SOLVES!
We should look at the bible whole as a long narrative from separation(the fall) to the eventual re-unification(the second coming). The whole of life fits somewhere within those two markers. Every life can be plotted somewhere between those two points. The AIM is unification! Nationalism or hatred are forms of duality. Jesus is unity. Hence, Savior! The solution.
Even if I were to grant you that point, you still would have to justify the idea that God, at that point in history, deemed it good that human beings keep slaves, kill disobedient children, witches, wizards, and those who work on the Sabbath.
Are we to just forget about that? Just give God a pass and say that we're just glad we didn't live through that? To say that Jesus solves that says nothing for those who had to live through such horrible times in the world's history.
I'll tell you, most of those things are only condemned because they lead people away from making God their number 1 - it is to PREVENT fragmentation. The results of fragmentation are dualities - and war.
The sabbath is established quite a way back in the bible, and is a mini form of nationalism. The Messiah did much to tackle and question the concept of the sabbath
GALATIANS 4
You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you
But you still haven't addressed my point. That God is our moral lawgiver, and He at one point thought slavery was a good thing, that the killing of human beings over trivial issues was a righteous act. Whether these things happen now, or in the past, they are still wrong.
And somehow all of this is solved by yet another murder (of Jesus)? It seems that God is obsessed with killing.
You didn't address the issue. You only responded with a Bible verse which appeals to fear.
2 Peter 3:9 is out of context. It says LONGSUFFERING TO USWARD, WILLING THAT NONE SHOULD PARISH... I.E, the people who become Christians! God chosen people! And since it's God's will, that WILL happen!
Tell the people how you think it would be just for an earthly judge to let his son get the death penalty so a serial killer could go free.
The bible is nothing more than an astrological literary hybrid and is nothing more than a plagiarized pagan and Egyptian theology. Christianity is nothing more than a Roman story that developed politically to control and enslave people.
I was curious what you meant when you were talking about man being broken and free will? A couple questions if you dont mind. Do you think, hypothetically, that adam and eve had free will? If not why? Do you think we have free will?
No, you grant me nothing. The fact that you choose to deny the existence of God does not alter the reality of His existence.
If you wish to learn about God, the Bible describes His characteristics quite eloquently.
Of course it would take time, effort & the desire to learn the truth.
Something I fear is a long way from your grasp.
Pride is blinding.
It is a shame that you spend so much of your time & energy trying (unsuccessfully) to disprove God, whom you do not believe in.
Ironic?
Sad...
pjumpy 7 months ago
@pjumpy
Regardless of whether or not I deny his existence, I am not logically bound to accept his existence without evidence. You are claiming he exists, and it is up to you to demonstrate that.
But, the Bible is not evidence of God. The Bible is the claim that God exists. You can't use the claim as the evidence. You must use sources external to the Bible. "Trying to prove God with the Bible is like trying to prove Superman with a comic book."
We seem to have different standards for truth.
TheSkepticalAtheist 7 months ago
@TheSkepticalAtheist It's not up to me to prove that God exists, you've been given all you need to find out for yourself. You have been given the choice, it's up to you to find the truth.
The Bible isn't needed to prove God's existence, the world's full of evidence if you know what to look for.
You think to use logic to disprove God who gave us the laws of logic. Good luck.
Truth isn't bound by our standards, it stands on it's own, no matter what you choose to believe.
Seek & you shall find.
pjumpy 7 months ago
@pjumpy
On the contrary. It is up to you to prove God exists, since you insist that he does. Logically speaking, the one making the claim has to prove that the claim is true. Until proof is provided, I am under no obligation whatsoever to accept it as true.
If you can say God exists without providing evidence, and that I must believe it, then I say you must believe in Unicorns and I'm not going to provide any evidence that they exist. There is no difference between the two scenarios.
TheSkepticalAtheist 7 months ago
So... Your opinion is that your opinion was not an opinion but a logical argument? What exactly was logical about it?
You assume that all crimes are finite yet you do not consider the possibility of infinite repercussions from certain crimes. Like turning your back on the one who has granted you salvation from your sin.
Do you really think it is unimportant to know all perspectives to make an informed decision? Not very wise.
Do I even have to claim you aren't as smart as God?
That's a gimme...
pjumpy 7 months ago
@pjumpy
Okay, this whole argument is hypothetical in nature, because I'm granting you the idea that God even exists. So it's useless to try to say that some being that you can't even describe is "smarter" than me. You couldn't even know how "smart" this God is if you can't describe him.
Let's take one "crime" that your God believes is worthy of punishment FOREVER: eating shellfish. Oh yeah? That's worthy of being on fire for eternity? What perspective is this that you have?
TheSkepticalAtheist 7 months ago
Interesting thoughts though you make a mistake by comparing punishment to correct ones actions in this life to the final punishment at the end of this life.
The final punishment is not designed to correct our actions. You life is over, there is no second chance, that is why it is so important to get yourself right with God in this life.
God has given us all we need to find Him, the bible (His Word) as our guide, our law and Jesus as our Savior to cover us for our sins and show us the way.
pjumpy 8 months ago
@pjumpy
So you're basically saying that Hell is a place for eternal revenge. How child-like. God's going to "get us back" for being bad.
TheSkepticalAtheist 8 months ago
@TheSkepticalAtheist So you, being less child like than your creator think you are in a good position to call his final judgement childish?
Hmmm... I think you comment suddenly carries little weight.
You are lacking the correct perspective.
"Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?" Isa 29:16
And what understanding do you have that God does not?
pjumpy 8 months ago
@pjumpy
No perspective can justify infinite punishment for finite crimes. I can say with 100% confidence that I am morally superior to any being who could even contemplate punishing another for eternity for crimes committed within an 80-year time span.
And that Bible verse is a false analogy. Humans are not clay. They are not objects. They are moral agents, as is the god you believe exists. To use your analogy, god can treat us any way he wants and it's moral because we are just objects.
TheSkepticalAtheist 8 months ago
@TheSkepticalAtheist 'No perspective can justify infinite punishment for finite crimes.' And how can you make that assertion when you do not know all perspectives? Your opinion once again holds no weight.
You then state with 100% confidence your ignorance of crimes that have eternal consequences.
False analogy? No, false perception. It is a metaphorical statement to try help you understand your position. You the creation accusing the creator he does not understand.
You do NOT understand.
pjumpy 8 months ago
@pjumpy
It's not an opinion. It's a logical argument. Until you can demonstrate that it is Just to punish someone for eternity for a finite "crime," I'm left to assume that it is unjust and immoral. I don't need to know "all perspectives." I just need to you show me THE perspective that deems infinite punishment for ANYTHING is moral and, in fact, NECESSARY. I submit that you cannot demonstrate such a thing.
In fact, you will only appeal to "mystery," or claim I'm not "as smart as God."
TheSkepticalAtheist 7 months ago
If hell is the eternal separation from God & everything Good is from God, then i think that explains why hell is immoral. It might mean that there, people won't be in God's protection anymore and so what ever happens, it has nothing to do with God anymore. another point about vengeful punishment, i agree with that too but not because God want to revenge, but rather fallen angels that have tremendous hate for God take revenge thru tormenting the creature that God loves so much.
Itiya86 11 months ago
Great video! even there's such as thing as hell and eternal damnation is completely, immoral I don't think even the biggest scumbag deserves eternal hell(although he would deserves some punishment according to his actions).
takerhbkfan 1 year ago
@takerhbkfan
I don't understand how anyone could look at it any other way. I can't see anyone really believing that some action one could take is deserving of spending eternity in conscious torment. It reminds me of Orwell's 1984. Doublethink. People can believe in love and mercy and forgiveness; and at the same time believe that a person could deserve eternal conscious torment for the slightest offense.
Entertaining two contradictory ideas, while believing them both to be equally true.
TheSkepticalAtheist 1 year ago
@takerhbkfa I do not think immoral is the correct term to use. How can it be immoral if it was set up by the one who created morals? God is the only one who is completely moral so how can he be immoral?
Your perception of morality is mistaken.
You are implying that you have better moral judgement than God who created morals.
Sorry, I don't buy it...
pjumpy 8 months ago
Christians are sadomasochists.
Beeza2996 2 years ago
The problem with debating Christians is you will deal with mostly Catholics or Protestants. They are very legalistic and like to precisely define everything about the Christian faith and break down the unkowables into phylosophies emerging from the medievil times.
Ancient Christianity (Eastern) teaches that hell is determined by the individual in Gods presence. Under the presence of God's love, the guilt of sinning against love, unrepented torments the individual.
orthodox4eva 2 years ago
I'm just coming from scriptural terms here.....but my hobby is Carl Jung..who's theme was to unite the two sides of the psyche. Long story but I was aware that I had two extreme sides long ago and almost committed suicide because of it.
jungian9111 2 years ago
I completely understand what you're saying, and I can see where you're coming from. But, for myself, I can in no way personally justify blood sacrifice as a reasonable price for sin, when God knew full well beforehand that sin would occur.
He couldn't be that short-sighted and immature. It just seems that for blood sacrifice to atone of evil acts, there has to be some reason that the spilling of blood is pleasing to God. He wouldn't demand it if He abhorred the idea of human suffering.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
I don't do literal....just symbolic. Sin and sufferings symbols were needed to cause suffering only for the widening of conscious. Consciousness is made from a tension of opposites...so in Christian terms the law of sin was needed in order to bring us to state of righteousness.....which few partake of...
jungian9111 2 years ago
Nice observation of not being able to squirm our way out of the law! Which was the intent the whole time......in hopes that people would see that Christ came to fulfill the law. He met the requirements demanded by law; which was to keep it! Romans 4
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of god keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him! 1 John 5:18
jungian9111 2 years ago
By stating this, you are admitting that God created man knowing that he would sin. Not only that he had previous knowledge of sin, but also that God still was stirred to anger when it happened.
One could only conclude from this that God Himself is responsible for the existence of sin. Had He even considered the fact that people would inevitably be sent to Hell, the only responsible, moral thing to do would have been to not create humans in the first place.
Does God desire to see suffering?
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
He doesn't desire suffering, but all were held over as subjects of wrath in order that they may come to the knowledge of what Christ did for them...without the law of suffering of not being able to keep it...I was able to receive the greater purpose of what Christ did for me....to fulfill the law in order to make me clean!! There is no more sin!
jungian9111 2 years ago
man was NEVER created imperfect! Was he? Didn't he became imperfect on earth?
Come on! The individual has ABSOLUTELY the chance to correct his actions! By repentance and humility. Chastity.
Why would you DO a video like this?
This makes me feel so sad! What grudges do you bear with Holy Law?
What message do you bring?
Do you have one?
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
@AwaitingSecondComing
You're missing the point. The point is that once you're in Hell, there is no chance to alter your behavior. Hell can't be considered "punishment" if there's no chance to change your behavior following the punishment. You're on fire forever.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
@TheSkepticalAtheist
Oh.... I SEE...
My bad
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
"The point is that once you're in Hell, there is no chance to alter your behavior. Hell can't be considered "punishment" if there's no chance to change your behavior following the punishment."
VERY, VERY FEW people come out of jail or prison rehabilitated. Most come out with more anger and bitterness than when they went in. HELL IS NOT a place of rehabilitation. IT IS A PLACE OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.
bornagain001 2 years ago
But you're missing the point. The point of punishment is to rehabilitate. Whether or not it works is not the issue.
Hell cannot be defined as punishment because there is, again, no chance to alter the behavior in question. It isn't punishment, it's revenge. Revenge on man for behaving within the bounds of how he was created. God gave us Free Will and is seeking his revenge for us using it.
Give people the capability of acting a certain way, then get pissed off when they do. Sounds reasonable.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
GOD TAKES NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED. He is not willing that any perish but that all come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9. It isnt Gods will that any should perish. God doesnt send anyone to Hell the same way a righteous Judge doesnt delight in sending anyone to prison. The criminals crime sends him to prison. The Judge merely executes justice. In the case of our Salvation, God prefers mercy over Judgment but if WE REFUSE His mercy we will get exactly what we choose and deserve.
bornagain001 2 years ago
I'm still not sure how you can justify this, after hearing what I've said about punishment, and what the purpose of punishment is. Would it not be enough to simply separate those who were "evil" from those who are "good," or "saved?"
This idea of eternal torment does not serve to teach a lesson, as they have no opportunity to modify their behavior following the punishment. It's simply a method of revenge-seeking, and this is not in line with the character of a God that I would ever worship.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
The purpose of HELL is not to teach a lesson or rehabilitate. It is ETERNAL PUNISHMENT for those who reject God's gift of redemption. Your life is NOT ABOUT YOU. It has NEVER been about you. God CREATED you for His purpose. But instead, you have chosen to live in rebellion to God and to reject his gift of eternity with Him. Your life of SELFISHNESS will be Judged by Christ who died for you, not God. Your beef is not with God but with Christ.
bornagain001 2 years ago
Yet again, you don't understand the definition of punishment. Maybe you missed that entire section in my video.
Punishment is designed to correct behavior. If you are in Hell for eternity, there is no opportunity to correct the behavior... therefore, Hell is God's place of revenge. Childish and reprehensible. And if you sincerely believe what you're saying, I can comfortably say that my morals are far superior to yours.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
What about those who are sent to prison for life? We would define that as punishment but there is no opportunity to correct behavior: no parol: no appeals.
How is this considered different from Hell? Im not one in favor of eternal punishment nor do I think It makes sense
let me know what you think.
silvermage87 2 years ago
Taking into account that we live in the physical world, we have certain limitations when it comes to criminals - especially those of the more violent type... murderers. Essentially, life without parole is our way of taking those who are dangerous to society and removing them.
What we don't do is lock people up somewhere and set them on fire. Any rational person knows that this, even temporarily, is not a just punishment for ANY crime. Yet, people can somehow justify this when God does it.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
Forget it. It's like talking to a brick wall. The guy thinks that it would be just for an earthly judge to kill his son so a serial killer can go free.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
When God gives us "free will", then it IS about us. Sorry. If your God wanted it to all about himself, he shouldn't have created anyone else. Your God is just a baby who can't stand that anybody disagrees with him. No amount of apologetics will make your God worthy of worship.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
"When God gives us "free will", then it IS about us."
INCORRECT. God created you for HIS PURPOSE but you were given free will to reject Him. God doesn't care if you disagree with Him. You are under the false assumption that your life is somehow valuable to Him. I can assure you...it is not.
bornagain001 2 years ago
Buried underneath all of this pretentiousness and lame apologetics lies a very obvious, deep-seated desire to see other human beings suffer. Whether it's using God as an excuse or not, there is a lot of language here speaking of people as "worthless." But God supposedly cares so much for us that the very hairs of our head are numbered...
This contradicts bornagain001's idea that we are not valuable to God. Bornagain hates humanity and he salves his ego by wishing eternal suffering on others.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
Your hairs are numbered. What does that have to do with the value of your life to God. God does love you enough to send HIS SON to die so that you do not have to. And since God is love ...love is always about relationships. If you have no personal relationship with Jesus Christ...your life has NO VALUE. 50 years from now...the odds are you will be dead. What value did the life of President Calvin Coolidge have on you....none..so your life will have even less value.
bornagain001 2 years ago
In the course of this discussion, we need to keep in mind a fact that I had mentioned in the very beginning of this video, which is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Bible actually teaches there is a place called "Hell," where people go to suffer for eternity.
I would challenge you, bornagain001, to show me specifically in the Bible where you believe the doctrine of eternal punishment stems from... citing specific Bible verses. I submit that you'll find none.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
You're right!
Have a look here: watch?v=p3updz1KalQ
NoHellForeverandever 2 years ago
"You are under the false assumption that your life is somehow valuable to Him. I can assure you...it is not."
And then the contradiction
"God does love you enough to send HIS SON to die so that you do not have to."
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
who CHOOSES to go to hell? Why would anyone CHOOSE to go? If we had FREEWILL, then why has there not been one person who has chosen NOT TO GO TO HELL? If you agree with the doctrine of man being "depraved" and "born within sin"; then you agree that there is no "freewill" (acting without: influence, prior causes, outside control, etc.) but, only being within the bounds of causality. How can you be CREATED FOR HIS PURPOSE and reject him, acting independently(from God's will?)?
val5214 2 years ago
And even to say that man is depraved, or born within sin doesn't really answer the question. To say that man IS something begs the question... how did man become that way? He was created that way. God created man depraved, within sin, or capable of sin.
So we're left with the vision of a God creating man with Free Will, perfectly capable of sin. Isn't it reasonable to believe that since man was created with the ability to sin, therefore man will sin? I consider it ignorant to believe otherwise.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
wow. yes, very interesting angle there. never thought of it that way. very well said.(sorry, have stitches on left hand - hard 2 type) anyway, that is why I now like listening to L. Ray Smith. I don't agree w/ all he says, but he takes on things like this and subject matter you will never hear in today's churches( at least not in the logical manner like you are doing now)
val5214 2 years ago
man will sin. its whether he finds salvation, is the issue.
for a lot of people, Jesus is the only salvation, their sin is so great. and it is a very real salvation. it allows a rethinking of the purpose of life.
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
@AwaitingSecondComing
I understand what you're saying, but can you see where I'm coming from? My hope is that you can understand what my position is, and why I think the way I do about this.
Do you see why I might have a problem with God setting up a system of rules, then having to sacrifice Himself in order to create a loophole in those rules?
I was a Christian for a long time, and this particular issue was one of the things that I struggled with justifying. Why not just forgive people?
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
@TheSkepticalAtheist
such is the imperfect, sporadic nature of human development. Jesus made the unfinished system complete. He unified the beginning to the end, creating an entire, fluid system of salvation. A complete unity.
We cant knock that! Surely you must see the benefits of this salvation? Do you not agree life is restored once a person comes to follow the Messianic teachings in Christ - and, through Him, of Moses?
People need forgiveness AFTER they know sin!
Salvation is beautiful!
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
@AwaitingSecondComing
But this unnecessary system was implemented to the detriment of all those who will spend eternity in eternal torment. Yeah, it might seem perfect for people who feel that they are destined to go to Heaven.
But, what about the people already in Hell? It's not such a perfect system for them. And for one to ascend into Heaven, to feel joy knowing what's happening to all of those in Hell... I don't care how good Heaven is. It could never make me forget about those suffering.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
which came first, the chicken or the egg?
torment or God's laws?
The breathed Word of God is condensed wisdom. And it would be relevant even in absence of the bible.
Homosexuals will be 'burnt with sulfur' - under any regime or law.
These laws are not come BEFORE the torment - they are an ANSWER to ESCAPE the torment - which torment is ingrained into human existence itself.
And I don't think the point is to 'forget suffering'! Jesus' message is exactly the opposite! i.e. to help!
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
@AwaitingSecondComing
Homosexuals will be 'burnt with sulfur' - under any regime or law? Where did you come up with this? Science is beginning to show us that homosexuality is not a choice. And so, what you're saying is that God created homosexuals for the sole purpose of torturing them?
If God created the method of torture, He fully intended upon using it. And He knew that it would be inevitable that He would use it on people who had no choice but to be tortured eternally.Not a just situation
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
@TheSkepticalAtheist
Where did I come up with it? Look around you.
I do not believe it is a genetic thing at all. If it was a genetic thing, such people would not be born with the sexual organs they carry.
To say it is natural is a lie - stemming from Babylon and from the merchant. At the root of it you'll always find a disconnection from True Wisdom - and an embracing (consciously or unconsciously) of men's own corrupt supposed 'wisdom' - (PC) ; such wisdom comes not from a pure source.
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
@AwaitingSecondComing
You're free to disbelieve, but your denial of homosexuality as genetic has a severe problem. It fails to account for the fact that homosexuality is not unique to human beings. Many species of animals practice it as well.
But, if you insist on denying reality and the findings of science, we don't have much else to discuss here. You can continue to believe despite what we know to be reality, but we will never see eye-to-eye because you aren't reasoning from reality.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
@TheSkepticalAtheist
We could say the same thing about each other!
Science is just compiled information and names for that information. I am not going to oppose 'science as a whole' but I will say that human relationships and the dynamics and problems of day to day life find more satisfaction and solution in scripture. The tenets of love God and love your neighbor can only lead to a robust spirit
Do you disagree that homosexuals get more or less 'lynched' globally? Is it taught?
Jesus saves.
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
@AwaitingSecondComing
Stoning disobedient children, killing witches and wizards, death to those who work on the Sabbath. From a book filled with such disregard for human life, one can only expect to find such nonsense as instructions to murder those whose sexual preference is different from the norm.
The whole thing is an excuse to justify racism, elitism and bigotry. The Bible literally instructs Christians to kill other human beings based upon how they were born. It's madness.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
@TheSkepticalAtheist
you misunderstand what the Gospel means. All those things you just mentioned as negatives, the Gospel SOLVES!
We should look at the bible whole as a long narrative from separation(the fall) to the eventual re-unification(the second coming). The whole of life fits somewhere within those two markers. Every life can be plotted somewhere between those two points. The AIM is unification! Nationalism or hatred are forms of duality. Jesus is unity. Hence, Savior! The solution.
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
@AwaitingSecondComing
Even if I were to grant you that point, you still would have to justify the idea that God, at that point in history, deemed it good that human beings keep slaves, kill disobedient children, witches, wizards, and those who work on the Sabbath.
Are we to just forget about that? Just give God a pass and say that we're just glad we didn't live through that? To say that Jesus solves that says nothing for those who had to live through such horrible times in the world's history.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
@TheSkepticalAtheist
I'll tell you, most of those things are only condemned because they lead people away from making God their number 1 - it is to PREVENT fragmentation. The results of fragmentation are dualities - and war.
The sabbath is established quite a way back in the bible, and is a mini form of nationalism. The Messiah did much to tackle and question the concept of the sabbath
GALATIANS 4
You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
@AwaitingSecondComing
But you still haven't addressed my point. That God is our moral lawgiver, and He at one point thought slavery was a good thing, that the killing of human beings over trivial issues was a righteous act. Whether these things happen now, or in the past, they are still wrong.
And somehow all of this is solved by yet another murder (of Jesus)? It seems that God is obsessed with killing.
You didn't address the issue. You only responded with a Bible verse which appeals to fear.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
Comment removed
AwaitingSecondComing 2 years ago
2 Peter 3:9 is out of context. It says LONGSUFFERING TO USWARD, WILLING THAT NONE SHOULD PARISH... I.E, the people who become Christians! God chosen people! And since it's God's will, that WILL happen!
Tell the people how you think it would be just for an earthly judge to let his son get the death penalty so a serial killer could go free.
JonathanClement140 2 years ago
The bible is nothing more than an astrological literary hybrid and is nothing more than a plagiarized pagan and Egyptian theology. Christianity is nothing more than a Roman story that developed politically to control and enslave people.
Nationalist64 2 years ago
Free will is a big question. Maybe I'll end up doing a video on that next. Personally, I've not found free will a compelling case.
I'm not a fan of determinism, but I don't see how we can avoid it.
TheSkepticalAtheist 2 years ago
I was curious what you meant when you were talking about man being broken and free will? A couple questions if you dont mind. Do you think, hypothetically, that adam and eve had free will? If not why? Do you think we have free will?
silvermage87 2 years ago