This is a choral that is called "der Passionzeit": that means this is a choral to play before easter, during the time of Passion. Is not a christmas song; In dir ist Freude is a christmas choral.
You people are very naive. You all seem to think a chorale prelude is a mood piece about the words in the title. Do you even know what a chorale prelude is and its function in the Lutheran liturgy of Bach's era? I suggest you look it up because you seem clueless. This chorale prelude is NOT about joy or the words "Jesus, my joy". It's about chorale hymn known as "Jesus, my joy." If you'd bother to read even the 1st verse of the hymn you'd see it's NOT about joy.
@philalire Do you really think this a mood piece about the words "Jesus, my joy"? Do you know what a chorale prelude is, how it was used? Please explain "the spirit of Christmas" and what the hymn "Jesu, meine Freude" has to do with "the spirit of Christmas." Before you answer, read the text of the hymn and tell me what it has tio do with Christmas. Did you know that the motet "Jesu, meine Freude" BBW 227 was composed for a funeral, not for Christmas?
This is the same chorale tune that was used in the motet of the same name, BWV 227. The text deals largely with the sorrows of a worldly life, and how Jesus can save one from such sorrows.
Here's the 1st stanza of the chorale: Jesus, my joy, pasture of my heart, Jesus, my adornment Oh, how long, Oh, how long has my heart been troubled and longing for you! Lamb of God, my bridegroom, without you nothing on earth is worthwhile to me. As you can see, the stanza is NOT about joy. It's about ANGUISH and LONGING. Do not lazily assume that the title of a chorale is the subject of the chorale.
This wonderful piece of Bach's organ works is entitled "Jesus, meine Freude"/ "Jesus, my joy". When I listen to it, I rather get the impression of "Jesus, my sorrow". Largo is the tempo, yes, but does that mean grievous, too?
I know what you mean. You're right it is "largo" and has a grievous tone. The point is that you don't have to translate it with "joy" but "Freude" in this case means "pleasure", "intimacy", "passion". This chorale prelude belongs to the christmas songs and that doesn't have anything in common what you meant with "joy".
Listen to BWV 615 in this one "Freude" has a different notion.
@toxiconegro No matter how you slice and dice it, "Freude" still means joy. "Jesu, meine Freude" is simply the title of the chorale being preluded. The title of a chorale is copied from the 1st line. But the sense and mood of the full text is anguish & longing, reflected in the repeating sigh motif in the counterpoints. Most modern listeners are clueless about the significance of this musical gesture. Bach's choice of contrapuntal motif is never arbitrary.
@QNWNENRNTNY The title of an organ chorale prelude is not invented. The title is simply copied taken from title of the chorale, and the title of a chorale is copied from the 1st verse of its 1st stanza.
Therefore, the title of a chorale will not necessarily match to the mood or topic of the text.
Neither the chorale tune (by Johann Crueger, 1653) nor the text (by Johann Franck, 1653) of the traditional Lutheran chorale "Jesu, meine Freude", sound particularly joyful, either!
@QNWNENRNTNY So I don't understand why you expect the chorale prelude to sound joyful merely because the word "joy" appears in the title of the chorale whose tune is not even joyful.
@QNWNENRNTNY Lutheran congregations of Bach's era were very familiar with the chorale "Jesu, meine Freude", and would have recognized the tune in this prelude.
You can have no real understanding what this chorale prelude is about without relating it to the complete chorale stanza (not just the 3-word title) and understanding the form & liturgical function of the organ chorale prelude, how chorales are named, and the liturgical function of the chorale.
@QNWNENRNTNY As I noted, this chorale is not about joy. It's about anguish and longing, conveyed by persistent sighing figure in the repeated motif of the counterpoints that accompany the chorale tune
@QNWNENRNTNY . You need to understand Baroque affections, rhetoric and musical expression to fully appreciate what's going on in the music. Lutheran congregations of Bach's era would have readily understood the significance of the sighing gestures in the counterpoints. You can't really grasp early music without regard to the aesthetics of the period.
@QNWNENRNTNY You also have to think of the theology of J.S. Bach. Christ is his joy, but there is always that little note of foreshadowing toward the cross. It's not so much sorrow here as a restrained or somber joy. Minor does *not* always equal sad. That's just the generic rule we tell kids to try to explain the difference because it's easier than explaining the relationship of half and whole steps in the diatonic scales.
@LocusIoannis You people are clueless. This piece isn't about the composer's personal theology. And you are very naive if you think this is a mood piece about the words "Jesus, my joy". It's CHORALE PRELUDE on the HYMN whose 1st line happens to be "Jesus, my joy." But the hymn is NOT about joy! READ IT! Verse 1 is about LONGING and ANGUISH. not joy! The SIGH MOTIF occurs througout the prelude! The same hymn is the basis of the FUNERAL motet "Jesu, meine Freude"!
@wcbroccoli You jump to conclusions due to an inability to comprehend the English language. No where did i say anything about a "mood piece." Secondly, you are naive if you believe a religious composer writing something like this would have no influences from his own life, especially his theology. And if you know only the first stanza of a chorale, do not presume to know its meaning. Read through to the last stanza. I am not incorrect, and you are simply trying to bully people on a website.
@LocusIoannis You have such a slavishly literal mind. I never said you used the words "mood piece."
But you were surely thinking it's a mood piece about joy when you tried to explain "Christ is his joy...It's not so much sorrow here as a restrained or somber joy. Minor does *not* always equal sad."
Such wishful nonsense.
Get a clue: Largo tempo and sigh motifs are NOT used to convey joy.
@wcbroccoli It's not slavishly literal; it's simply stating the facts. You made an accusation. I showed how you were incorrect in your assumption. You keep harping on this "mood piece" idea of yours as if it is pertinent. If I never said it, and you brought it up, there's no need for it to be repeated in the discussion. And you're incorrect in saying I was thinking it is a mood piece. Seriously, do some graduate work in the subject (music or theology) and we can talk. You're being childish.
@LocusIoannis You're being childish. From the outset you (and others) have tried to twist this chorale prelude-- despite its sigh motifs & largo tempo-- into a mood piece about joy simply because the title is "Jesus, my joy." No. It's about "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
@wcbroccoli Not "simply because." There was a lengthy and well-reasoned explanation of the *whole* chorale (all 6 verses) since you felt the need to ignore anything but that one phrase (in one verse) you keep quoting. If you choose not to read it or are incapable of understanding anything of it, it is not my problem. My time is too important to waste on the willfully and belligerantly ignorant. Tell you what, the last verse sums it up more than anything, and I'll give you a common translation:
@LocusIoannis Your lengthy and well-reasoned explanation of all 6 verses naively assumes a chorale prelude must be a theological summary of the entire hymn. It isn't.
The composer chooses which aspects of the text he depicts. In this case. he used sigh motifs and largo to depict the anguish & longing expressed by the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
Tell me how that does not say JOY IN SPITE OF PAIN. Tell me how pain is supposed to be the meaning in that rather than joy at pain holding no power because of Christ. You simply cannot, because you. are. wrong. The end. You are worth no more of my time.
@LocusIoannis By stating that you did not call it a "mood piece", you are being slavishly literal. I never accused you of calling it a mood piece. I said you're treating it as though it were a mood piece about joy simply because of the words in the title. Apparently you have nothing of substance to contribute to the discussion and choose to remain clueless and in denial.
@wcbroccoli It's as if you're too simple-minded to understand any of what I wrote. Tempo is incidentally set by the melody, not the harmonization/setting. Sigh motifs are used to indicate *either* tension of some sort, pain, or both. The fact that the choral is about joy IN SPITE OF PAIN means pain is associated with the choral, though not the point. Keep the caps in mind, as that's where your pain plays in. It is party to the point, not the point itself.
@LocusIoannis The largo tempo was specified by the composer and has nothing to do with the hymn melody, already in slow notes as is common in a cantus firmus setting. A chorale prelude is not a theological exegesis. The composer chooses which aspect(s) of the text he depicts. In this setting he uses a sigh motif and largo to depict the anguish & longing expressed by the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
@wcbroccoli You're hopeless. Re-read what I said. You're ignoring the parts where I showed how joy is shown in words OTHER THAN "meine Freude." But you're a troll. Fuck off. Let me know when you have a degree in music, theology, or hell, even English. Then maybe a mature discussion can be had. I can't teach you how to read too. The information's all there. Stop being lazy and read it. Peace, you poor ignorant soul.
@LocusIoannis You're hopeless. Re-read what I wrote. You're ignoring the fact that
A chorale prelude is not a theological exegesis. The composer chooses which aspect(s) of the text he depicts. In this setting he uses a sigh motif and largo to depict the anguish & longing expressed by the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
@LocusIoannis If you actually have a degree in any of those fields (which I doubt), it hasn't helped you grasp this piece. A chorale prelude is not an exegesis of a chorale. The composer chooses which aspect(s) of the text he depicts. In this setting he uses a sigh motif, grating dissonances & largo tempo to express not joy (obviously), but anguish & longing in the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
@LocusIoannis The chorale "Jesus, my joy" is not about joy. There's no "foreshadowing" of the cross. While the chorale prelude is in the minor mode, the chorale tune is in the Dorian mode, not minor mode. (I hope you at least know the chorale tune is in the top line!) And the counterpoints (hope you know what that means) repeat a Baroque sigh motif, not a joy motif! Get a clue!
@wcbroccoli My comment about the minor mode was in response to someone else's. Once again you overlook something quite big in the reasoning for things being there. Secondly, thank you for the elementary (at best) descriptions of what a chorale prelude is. And it would be "the counterpoint," not "counterpoints." Now, you might have meant "voices," but I don't expect someone with your arrogance and minimal grasp of the subject to understand this.
@LocusIoannis What's got you panties in a twist is that I didn't overlook ANYTHING in criticizing your comments. Surely you don''t expect a dissertation on "chorale prelude" in YouTube comments. EACH of the 3 lower voices IS A counterpoint to the cantus firmus. "COUNTERPOINT: one or more independent melodies added above or below a given melody."
@wcbroccoli Also, the use of one particular "motif" does not set the meaning of a piece, nor exclude other possibilities. Once again, read the whole text, not just the first verse. You astound me at how much you pretend to know while knowing so little.
@LocusIoannis What makes you think I didn't read the "whole text"? You naively assume that the presence of the words "Jesus, my joy" at the beginning and end of the hymn force the conclusion that the chorale prelude depicts those 3 words. The sigh motif and dissonances convey not joy, but the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!". You are clearly clueless and trying to mask it by pretending I don't know what I'm taling about.
@wcbroccoli Your assumptions show your foolishness. I approach my argument from the theological statement of the whole chorale. You are at best an amateur musician with a passing knowledge of the baroque and no theological training whatsoever. You once again go to the first verse for your quote. You note that "Jesu, meine Freude" shows up at the end of the last stanza, but you fail to actually pay attention to the content or meaning of the words in general. Let me help you learn to read:
@wcbroccoli 1st verse: Anxiety that nothing on earth compares to the lyricist's joy (that is to say, Christ). Anxiety at being separated from that joy while on earth.
2nd: Christ's protection while they are separated.
3rd: Lyricist's steadfastness through trial because of surety of God's might.
4th: Nothing of this world, not even death takes focus from Christ's spiritual presence (Weg mit allen Schätzen)
5th: Bidding goodnight to the world and to life; death is nigh.
Having Christ as one's joy, there is no need to fear or submit to anything in the world. Christ, the master, the joy comes; God makes all ill into sweetness. With this knowledge, even in suffering and death, Christ makes all things joyful.
@wcbroccoli Now shut the hell up with your insistence on "the sigh motif." It's referring to pain, yes, but you miss the point entirely. That is that *the pain is meaningless because of Christ.* The pain and minor attitude is neither the focus of the music nor the text; they are incidental. If you knew jack about modes, you'd know that Dorian (1st mode) was often used because it was seen as having a lively and joyful quality that refreshes the sad, pained and disturbed. Get real, amateur.
@LocusIoannis Call it a sigh motif or a pain motif, but don't call it a joy motif. The point is that this chorale prelude is not depicting joy. Only a naive listener would assume this is a mood piece about the words in the title.
@wcbroccoli I used neither "joy motif" nor "mood piece" to describe it. The piece has a mood, but all pieces do. You are the obsessing over motifs, taking incidental musical details and making them the sole factor in analysis. That's bad musicianship. You overlooked the choral, its melody's mode's meaning, and its words in your haste to criticize. You focused on the pain depicted by your "sigh motif" to exclusion of all else, like that the pain doesn't matter because of "meine Freude."
@wcbroccoli I'm missing no point. You're repeating that over and over as if it is the point. But no one has ever disagreed with you that that is true. You're grasping to one of the few things you said that is true and that no one contradicted in hopes of appearing correct all along. Come on; this is how small children argue. Congrats! You figured out where some of the incidental dissonances came from; that has nothing to do with the overall character of the choral.
@wcbroccoli By the way: your first statement there is a non sequitur. You're talking about qualities of songs written in the mode; I was talking about the mode itself. Those drinking songs fit the description of the mode I gave as much as the over-arching meaning of the choral. Your example of drinking songs actually kind of bolsters what I said earlier about the feeling (and consensus thereabout) of Dorian.
@wcbroccoli And no, that's not what the choral is about. That's a small part of a metaphor contained within 1/6 of the choral. But once again, you're trying to argue theology on this one with a theologian. You're in over your head.
This is a choral that is called "der Passionzeit": that means this is a choral to play before easter, during the time of Passion. Is not a christmas song; In dir ist Freude is a christmas choral.
PerfekteWagnerianer 1 month ago
What a wonderful channel with the music to follow as well. (Some of the scores are a tone lower but that doesn't really make any difference.)
zamyrabyrd 5 months ago
You people are very naive. You all seem to think a chorale prelude is a mood piece about the words in the title. Do you even know what a chorale prelude is and its function in the Lutheran liturgy of Bach's era? I suggest you look it up because you seem clueless. This chorale prelude is NOT about joy or the words "Jesus, my joy". It's about chorale hymn known as "Jesus, my joy." If you'd bother to read even the 1st verse of the hymn you'd see it's NOT about joy.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
I'am agree with this interpretation: it's in correlation with the spirit of the Christmas time and the Mottet BWV 227.
philalire 1 year ago
@philalire Do you really think this a mood piece about the words "Jesus, my joy"? Do you know what a chorale prelude is, how it was used? Please explain "the spirit of Christmas" and what the hymn "Jesu, meine Freude" has to do with "the spirit of Christmas." Before you answer, read the text of the hymn and tell me what it has tio do with Christmas. Did you know that the motet "Jesu, meine Freude" BBW 227 was composed for a funeral, not for Christmas?
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
This is the same chorale tune that was used in the motet of the same name, BWV 227. The text deals largely with the sorrows of a worldly life, and how Jesus can save one from such sorrows.
b0ttomzone 1 year ago
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
This wonderful piece of Bach's organ works is entitled "Jesus, meine Freude"/ "Jesus, my joy". When I listen to it, I rather get the impression of "Jesus, my sorrow". Largo is the tempo, yes, but does that mean grievous, too?
QNWNENRNTNY 2 years ago
I know what you mean. You're right it is "largo" and has a grievous tone. The point is that you don't have to translate it with "joy" but "Freude" in this case means "pleasure", "intimacy", "passion". This chorale prelude belongs to the christmas songs and that doesn't have anything in common what you meant with "joy".
Listen to BWV 615 in this one "Freude" has a different notion.
Thanks for being critically and for commenting
toxiconegro 2 years ago 4
@toxiconegro No matter how you slice and dice it, "Freude" still means joy. "Jesu, meine Freude" is simply the title of the chorale being preluded. The title of a chorale is copied from the 1st line. But the sense and mood of the full text is anguish & longing, reflected in the repeating sigh motif in the counterpoints. Most modern listeners are clueless about the significance of this musical gesture. Bach's choice of contrapuntal motif is never arbitrary.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@QNWNENRNTNY The title of an organ chorale prelude is not invented. The title is simply copied taken from title of the chorale, and the title of a chorale is copied from the 1st verse of its 1st stanza.
Therefore, the title of a chorale will not necessarily match to the mood or topic of the text.
Neither the chorale tune (by Johann Crueger, 1653) nor the text (by Johann Franck, 1653) of the traditional Lutheran chorale "Jesu, meine Freude", sound particularly joyful, either!
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@QNWNENRNTNY So I don't understand why you expect the chorale prelude to sound joyful merely because the word "joy" appears in the title of the chorale whose tune is not even joyful.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@QNWNENRNTNY Lutheran congregations of Bach's era were very familiar with the chorale "Jesu, meine Freude", and would have recognized the tune in this prelude.
You can have no real understanding what this chorale prelude is about without relating it to the complete chorale stanza (not just the 3-word title) and understanding the form & liturgical function of the organ chorale prelude, how chorales are named, and the liturgical function of the chorale.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@QNWNENRNTNY As I noted, this chorale is not about joy. It's about anguish and longing, conveyed by persistent sighing figure in the repeated motif of the counterpoints that accompany the chorale tune
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@QNWNENRNTNY . You need to understand Baroque affections, rhetoric and musical expression to fully appreciate what's going on in the music. Lutheran congregations of Bach's era would have readily understood the significance of the sighing gestures in the counterpoints. You can't really grasp early music without regard to the aesthetics of the period.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@QNWNENRNTNY You also have to think of the theology of J.S. Bach. Christ is his joy, but there is always that little note of foreshadowing toward the cross. It's not so much sorrow here as a restrained or somber joy. Minor does *not* always equal sad. That's just the generic rule we tell kids to try to explain the difference because it's easier than explaining the relationship of half and whole steps in the diatonic scales.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis You people are clueless. This piece isn't about the composer's personal theology. And you are very naive if you think this is a mood piece about the words "Jesus, my joy". It's CHORALE PRELUDE on the HYMN whose 1st line happens to be "Jesus, my joy." But the hymn is NOT about joy! READ IT! Verse 1 is about LONGING and ANGUISH. not joy! The SIGH MOTIF occurs througout the prelude! The same hymn is the basis of the FUNERAL motet "Jesu, meine Freude"!
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli You jump to conclusions due to an inability to comprehend the English language. No where did i say anything about a "mood piece." Secondly, you are naive if you believe a religious composer writing something like this would have no influences from his own life, especially his theology. And if you know only the first stanza of a chorale, do not presume to know its meaning. Read through to the last stanza. I am not incorrect, and you are simply trying to bully people on a website.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis You have such a slavishly literal mind. I never said you used the words "mood piece."
But you were surely thinking it's a mood piece about joy when you tried to explain "Christ is his joy...It's not so much sorrow here as a restrained or somber joy. Minor does *not* always equal sad."
Such wishful nonsense.
Get a clue: Largo tempo and sigh motifs are NOT used to convey joy.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli It's not slavishly literal; it's simply stating the facts. You made an accusation. I showed how you were incorrect in your assumption. You keep harping on this "mood piece" idea of yours as if it is pertinent. If I never said it, and you brought it up, there's no need for it to be repeated in the discussion. And you're incorrect in saying I was thinking it is a mood piece. Seriously, do some graduate work in the subject (music or theology) and we can talk. You're being childish.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis You're being childish. From the outset you (and others) have tried to twist this chorale prelude-- despite its sigh motifs & largo tempo-- into a mood piece about joy simply because the title is "Jesus, my joy." No. It's about "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
Not "Freude." Get a clue.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli Not "simply because." There was a lengthy and well-reasoned explanation of the *whole* chorale (all 6 verses) since you felt the need to ignore anything but that one phrase (in one verse) you keep quoting. If you choose not to read it or are incapable of understanding anything of it, it is not my problem. My time is too important to waste on the willfully and belligerantly ignorant. Tell you what, the last verse sums it up more than anything, and I'll give you a common translation:
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis Your lengthy and well-reasoned explanation of all 6 verses naively assumes a chorale prelude must be a theological summary of the entire hymn. It isn't.
The composer chooses which aspects of the text he depicts. In this case. he used sigh motifs and largo to depict the anguish & longing expressed by the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
I'm very sorry you cannot grasp this.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis You may need a translation, but I don't.
I understand German.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli Go away, mournful spirits,
for my joyful master,
Jesus, now enters in.
For those who love God
even their afflictions
become pure sweetness.
Even if here I must endure shame and disgrace,
even in suffering you remain,
Jesus, my joy.
Tell me how that does not say JOY IN SPITE OF PAIN. Tell me how pain is supposed to be the meaning in that rather than joy at pain holding no power because of Christ. You simply cannot, because you. are. wrong. The end. You are worth no more of my time.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis By stating that you did not call it a "mood piece", you are being slavishly literal. I never accused you of calling it a mood piece. I said you're treating it as though it were a mood piece about joy simply because of the words in the title. Apparently you have nothing of substance to contribute to the discussion and choose to remain clueless and in denial.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli It's as if you're too simple-minded to understand any of what I wrote. Tempo is incidentally set by the melody, not the harmonization/setting. Sigh motifs are used to indicate *either* tension of some sort, pain, or both. The fact that the choral is about joy IN SPITE OF PAIN means pain is associated with the choral, though not the point. Keep the caps in mind, as that's where your pain plays in. It is party to the point, not the point itself.
How can you be this dense and arrogant?
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis The largo tempo was specified by the composer and has nothing to do with the hymn melody, already in slow notes as is common in a cantus firmus setting. A chorale prelude is not a theological exegesis. The composer chooses which aspect(s) of the text he depicts. In this setting he uses a sigh motif and largo to depict the anguish & longing expressed by the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
How can you not grasp this?
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli You're hopeless. Re-read what I said. You're ignoring the parts where I showed how joy is shown in words OTHER THAN "meine Freude." But you're a troll. Fuck off. Let me know when you have a degree in music, theology, or hell, even English. Then maybe a mature discussion can be had. I can't teach you how to read too. The information's all there. Stop being lazy and read it. Peace, you poor ignorant soul.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LocusIoannis You're hopeless. Re-read what I wrote. You're ignoring the fact that
A chorale prelude is not a theological exegesis. The composer chooses which aspect(s) of the text he depicts. In this setting he uses a sigh motif and largo to depict the anguish & longing expressed by the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
How can you not graps this?
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
Comment removed
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis If you actually have a degree in any of those fields (which I doubt), it hasn't helped you grasp this piece. A chorale prelude is not an exegesis of a chorale. The composer chooses which aspect(s) of the text he depicts. In this setting he uses a sigh motif, grating dissonances & largo tempo to express not joy (obviously), but anguish & longing in the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!"
Sorry you can't you grasp this.
Be gone.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis The chorale "Jesus, my joy" is not about joy. There's no "foreshadowing" of the cross. While the chorale prelude is in the minor mode, the chorale tune is in the Dorian mode, not minor mode. (I hope you at least know the chorale tune is in the top line!) And the counterpoints (hope you know what that means) repeat a Baroque sigh motif, not a joy motif! Get a clue!
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli My comment about the minor mode was in response to someone else's. Once again you overlook something quite big in the reasoning for things being there. Secondly, thank you for the elementary (at best) descriptions of what a chorale prelude is. And it would be "the counterpoint," not "counterpoints." Now, you might have meant "voices," but I don't expect someone with your arrogance and minimal grasp of the subject to understand this.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis What's got you panties in a twist is that I didn't overlook ANYTHING in criticizing your comments. Surely you don''t expect a dissertation on "chorale prelude" in YouTube comments. EACH of the 3 lower voices IS A counterpoint to the cantus firmus. "COUNTERPOINT: one or more independent melodies added above or below a given melody."
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli Also, the use of one particular "motif" does not set the meaning of a piece, nor exclude other possibilities. Once again, read the whole text, not just the first verse. You astound me at how much you pretend to know while knowing so little.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis What makes you think I didn't read the "whole text"? You naively assume that the presence of the words "Jesus, my joy" at the beginning and end of the hymn force the conclusion that the chorale prelude depicts those 3 words. The sigh motif and dissonances convey not joy, but the words "Ach wie lang, ach lange ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!". You are clearly clueless and trying to mask it by pretending I don't know what I'm taling about.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli Your assumptions show your foolishness. I approach my argument from the theological statement of the whole chorale. You are at best an amateur musician with a passing knowledge of the baroque and no theological training whatsoever. You once again go to the first verse for your quote. You note that "Jesu, meine Freude" shows up at the end of the last stanza, but you fail to actually pay attention to the content or meaning of the words in general. Let me help you learn to read:
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli 1st verse: Anxiety that nothing on earth compares to the lyricist's joy (that is to say, Christ). Anxiety at being separated from that joy while on earth.
2nd: Christ's protection while they are separated.
3rd: Lyricist's steadfastness through trial because of surety of God's might.
4th: Nothing of this world, not even death takes focus from Christ's spiritual presence (Weg mit allen Schätzen)
5th: Bidding goodnight to the world and to life; death is nigh.
And last but not least
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli Weicht, ihr Trauergeister,
Denn mein Freudenmeister,
Jesus, tritt herein.
Denen, die Gott lieben,
Muß auch ihr Betrüben
Lauter Zucker sein.
Duld ich schon hier Spott und Hohn,
Dennoch bleibst du auch im Leide,
Jesu, meine Freude.
Having Christ as one's joy, there is no need to fear or submit to anything in the world. Christ, the master, the joy comes; God makes all ill into sweetness. With this knowledge, even in suffering and death, Christ makes all things joyful.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli Now shut the hell up with your insistence on "the sigh motif." It's referring to pain, yes, but you miss the point entirely. That is that *the pain is meaningless because of Christ.* The pain and minor attitude is neither the focus of the music nor the text; they are incidental. If you knew jack about modes, you'd know that Dorian (1st mode) was often used because it was seen as having a lively and joyful quality that refreshes the sad, pained and disturbed. Get real, amateur.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis Call it a sigh motif or a pain motif, but don't call it a joy motif. The point is that this chorale prelude is not depicting joy. Only a naive listener would assume this is a mood piece about the words in the title.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli I used neither "joy motif" nor "mood piece" to describe it. The piece has a mood, but all pieces do. You are the obsessing over motifs, taking incidental musical details and making them the sole factor in analysis. That's bad musicianship. You overlooked the choral, its melody's mode's meaning, and its words in your haste to criticize. You focused on the pain depicted by your "sigh motif" to exclusion of all else, like that the pain doesn't matter because of "meine Freude."
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@LocusIoannis And drinking songs were often in dorian, but that doesn't mean every song in dorian is a drinking song.
We don't need an extensive exegesis of the chorale to understand it's about
"Ach wie lang, ach lange Ist dem Herzen bange und verlangt nach dir!". Hence, the sigh motif and dissonances.
The point you're missing is that it's naive to assume that a chorale prelude is a mood piece about the words in the title.
Amateur or not, I still know what I'm talking about.
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli I'm missing no point. You're repeating that over and over as if it is the point. But no one has ever disagreed with you that that is true. You're grasping to one of the few things you said that is true and that no one contradicted in hopes of appearing correct all along. Come on; this is how small children argue. Congrats! You figured out where some of the incidental dissonances came from; that has nothing to do with the overall character of the choral.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli By the way: your first statement there is a non sequitur. You're talking about qualities of songs written in the mode; I was talking about the mode itself. Those drinking songs fit the description of the mode I gave as much as the over-arching meaning of the choral. Your example of drinking songs actually kind of bolsters what I said earlier about the feeling (and consensus thereabout) of Dorian.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
@wcbroccoli And no, that's not what the choral is about. That's a small part of a metaphor contained within 1/6 of the choral. But once again, you're trying to argue theology on this one with a theologian. You're in over your head.
LocusIoannis 1 year ago
Comment removed
wcbroccoli 1 year ago
@QNWNENRNTNY No tempo could give that joy to this.
dolofonos 2 months ago