Separation of Church and State

[kentuckyboychris]

Democrat are doing a grate job.



[NanoWombat]

Got to love politics in general, soo much backstabbing between parties over even the smallest things :(

[romansten9]

The founders attended church in the US Capitol building, wanted the Bible in schools (which continued for >150 years) and mixed church and state in countless other ways. Its absurd that they wanted separation.

The idea for the separation (as we know it today) began in 1947, and was a radical twisting of a letter by Jefferson. The letter was not even an official document, Jefferson was not even in the US when the 1st Amendment was written, and not ONE person present used that phrase.

[jmccu100]

thar all ass hols to me

[kavikarkaino]

Booooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!­!!!

[thatVeteran]

wow your very narrow minded and opinionated..

some of the same laws you label as "republican" were in fact championed by a democratic Congress..

the same congress that has the majority and makes the rules..

this is just complete propaganda.

and is aimed at uninformed and ignorant people..

I cant hold water to the truth..

give me one bill that was passed solely by republicans that limit your rights?

you cant..

[mallardhead]

Republican does not = religious & never has!

Fed Govt laws passed? NONE!

State laws? NONE R Constitutional.

We all know how unchanging and always correct Science is. brontosaurus?

ZERO laws.

Judges appointed... NONE go against the Constitution.

Can't impose views! It's un-Constitutional

Her family? LIE! Her husband insisted she be starved to death to legitimize living with another woman.

Not ALL stem cell research. Just the kind that kills the unborn. RUCannibals?

DEM LIES

[yorkbagel]

wait is somebody rejecting science on the basis of eggs? you my friend are awesome! Do I even want to ask you (willisboys2007) what you think about "good" cholesterol?

[blessedvic]

itry2brational: If any president writes a letter to another person does it automatically become government policy? Does the authority of the fed. gov. come from the Constitution or can any president write into the Constitution whatever he wants on his own?

[BeanGene]

The president is the Commander and Chief of the Army and Navy and the head of the Exectutive Branch. Exectutive orders are limited to the exectutive staff. Yes, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land any thing to the contrary notwithstanding. It is the only source of legal authority, unfortunately Americans have not found a effective way to constrain a government that no longer operates within its own legal bounds. No, the President has never Amended or chged the Constitution.

[blessedvic]

beangene:they are rhetorical questions.i was trying to get someone to see that a private letter is not the same as an official gov. letter.

[BeanGene]

Gotcha, never can tell who your talking to or how old they might be. Guess next time I'll check the profile....

[biped19]

Good post. Two words: States rights.

[willisboys2007]

the world was created by God not science I owe everything to him,computers are manmade not of God! why in thousands of years has the Bible never been disproved?it is accurate historically, archeology,and Scientifically. many things science has said has been way off base!

[Kingery4President]

What critical or pivotal elements have been proven accurate historically, archeologically, and scientifically?

I'm talking the essential elements of the religion.

Depending on which historical statistics you believe, much of the biblical stories originated in Egypt years before those recorded in Christian Bibles.

Can you provide proof to your claims?

The challenge is on.

[willisboys2007]

want to replace science with religion???? religion was first, historically even still not disproved, science has been proved wrong many times. don't believe, how many times has science said eggs were bad for your health, and then a year later ,good for your health, wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!

[itry2brational]

Practically speaking, you owe your LIFE to science. Everything surrounding you right now, you owe to science. The computer youre using, electricity, the medicine which allowed you to survive being born, antibiotics, your car(and gas), house, clothes, food, soap, toothpaste, furniture, roads, buildings, TVs, stereos, video games, and yes, even your copy of the Bible owes its existence to science.

If everything around me is all that science can get right, Im fine with that.

religion = 1st & worst

[blessedvic]

who invented science?I owe my life to Jesus Christ!

[itry2brational]

Man did.

You owe your life to your parents, if you want to get specific. And almost certainly science played a major part in your healthy birth.

[A4AgnstcFndmntlst]

Fine, next time you get sick pray, don't see a doctor.

[MegF142857]

Stem cell research is not illegal, but just not to have federal funding or tax dollars used. I would be pleased if all those believing in stem cell research to make private donations. Why wait for the government to take money from someone else that is ethically opposed for their religious reasons?

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: the Dansbury letter that is the courts basis for the official reason for sep. of church&state was a private letter written by a private person to other private people. When did it become legal to use a private letter to create new government policies?

[itry2brational]

WRONG! It was extremely public and important. You know nothing about the history of the letter or the implication. How would a Presidential letter be considered private? No, Jefferson understood very well that his response would be taken very seriously. He had 2 member of his cabinet review it. Visit the Library of Congress website for more.

In those days, letters were "prime vehicles for the dissemination of partisan views." Madison used 'separation' in a veto message. Hardly private.

[blessedvic]

itry2brational: if you're referring to the Dansbury letter, it was written before Jefferson was elected president. He was still a private citizen.

[itry2brational]

Jefferson was President from March 4, 1801 to March 4, 1809.

The letter to the Danbury Baptists was sent January 1, 1802.

Wikipedia and the Library of Congress are good sites for this information.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: "The Federalist Papers", The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution.Also, when were the 9th and 10th amendments repelled?

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: the fact that abortion was created as a right has caused human life to become valued less than an animal's life. I object to public schools forcing liberal views on kids so that they grow up supporting the killing of millions of babies.

[GottOngeloof]

Liberal opinions, WTF is that? An opinion you don't agree with? So, you believe children should receive only one perspective in life and it must be a limited one at that. Your children must be highly intelligent. I could care less what my kids learn in school as long as it is based on facts, unlike that pseudo science the Christians are trying to cram down our kids throats. Give me a break.

Educate yourself and when you have some FACTS, get back with me. I've lost patience with your ignorance.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: kids in school should be taught the subjects the teachers are there to teach,not to indoctrinate kids into environmental,homosexual,socia­lists,anti-family agendas.

[GottOngeloof]

retarded.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: for over 150yrs. the Bible was used to teach the alphbet. Do you think those schools didn't know they were doing something illegal?

[GottOngeloof]

I am done talking to you. You are fucking retarded and know nothing of history, science or the Constitution. You are an obsessive personality that cannot look up information for yourself or accept information from others. So why waste people's time? You epitomize the word ignorant and I simply don't have time to educate you. You have the web at your fingertips.

[GottOngeloof]

Instead of looking for shit that supports your fucked view, try expanding your mind and tapping into reliable sources to get your information from. BYE!

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: my sources are the original documents and the founders.

[GottOngeloof]

With amendments or without? If without, then States rights are not addressed for they were written into the Bill of Rights. Are you aware the Constitution was only ratified because it was urgent to get a working government in place and that the intention was to have another convention to draw up a more complete Constitution, but this never took place? And if your sources are the founders, then tell me your source for their words. Mine are government documents on file for the public.

[GottOngeloof]

Insert in your address bar; hypertext transfer protocol, colon, followed by two backslashes, world wide web, and replace the word dot with a .

archives dot gov/historical-docs/

thomas dot loc dot gov

etext dot virginia dot edu/jefferson/quotations/

uschs dot org/Content/103 dot htm (please do have a go at this!)

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: answer my question. If you are correct it should be easy. If schools could use the Bible to teach reading and the alphabet for 150yrs. why is it unconstitutional today?

[GottOngeloof]

Philadelphia Bible riots, books were less available before (we now have text book publishers), and there were objections that forced the Supreme Court to address the issue and their ruling is law. Law is what the U.S. is built on. The principle that we may establish laws in order to live harmoniously. Read the preamble to the Constitution and the preamble to the Declaration of Independence. These explain the purpose before laying out the structure of how to achieve those goals.

[GottOngeloof]

We euthenize dogs at the HUMANE SOCIETY, where do you get that a human life is worth less than an animals? And where do you get off thinking you can tell a woman what she can do with her body. Animals ARE PROPERTY UNDER THE LAW, WOMEN AREN'T!

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: any female at almost whatever age can kill her baby with gov. protection. If someone kills his own dog for any reason of his choosing he can be prosecuted. Which has more protection?

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: my point on the witches was that that argument is grossly over made. I agree one death is too many but the Salem witch hunts were not as great as they are made out to be.BTW,do you support abortion?

[GottOngeloof]

Any killing is what it is made out to be: Murder! Do you not comprehend that? Or murder by persecution is okay?

I am a woman, what the hell do you think?

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: any killing is murder? apparantly not!

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: when were the 9th and 10th amendments overturned?

[GottOngeloof]

I'm not sure how you are reading the 9th Amendment, but it secures the rights given you in the previous, in other words ANY NOT LISTED!

As to the 10th, The powers NOT delegated to the United States by the Constitution, NOR prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

This means: the Constitution is the SUPREME LAW OF THIS LAND as I said. A State may not enact laws that violate ANY stated right or Article within this codex.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: the 9th and 10th amend. were meant to insure the fed. gov. would not become more powerful than the states. The Constitution limits the powers of the fed. gov. The "SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND" is the people.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: I agree a woman has a right to choose. She has the right to choose wheather or not to get pregnant.

[GottOngeloof]

As you have the choice not to fuck her.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: correct, the creation of a baby is also the responsiblity of the man also.However, let the woman decide to kill their baby and the man has no rights at all.

[GottOngeloof]

The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness by Professors Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore. It can be previewed on Google Books. Blessed Vic, get a blessed education. You can pervert history for your own use, that is what we call propaganda, but history remains unchanged dear. The truth is out there.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloofd: I am all for the fed. gov. being neutral in matters of religion. But I also believe if a state,city,or locality wants to display their religious beliefs it's none of the fed. gov.'s business.

[GottOngeloof]

As you stated, why should the tax payers pay to post your belief when there are many people in this country who do not share it? Do you know what it costs to hire a mason to carve a relief on a building???

[GottOngeloof]

Separation of Church and State (the Establishment clause) was to protect those who believed as well as those who didn't. The founders had many different beliefs, their unifying principle was to overthrow oppression, not impose their own form of it. See the Bible Riots of Philadelphia, is that what the founders intended?

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: 1st;there is nowhere in the constitution the "separation of church and state",2nd; the 1st amendment was intended to keep the fed. gov. from interfering in religion, not the other way around.

[GottOngeloof]

1st, no establishment of religion blows your second argument out of the water.

[hornedbeast91]

we should have seperation of church and state for if religion is allowed in gov't then that opens a pathway to a state wide religion

[virgin4lyfe]

vote democrat if you want to opress religion and move towards a new world order!

[blessedvic]

syrinx: where did you get info that said W.Virginia did not mention God? It's not very reliable. I also find it amusing that it's ok to be a deist just don't be a Christian.

[GottOngeloof]

It's okay to be a Christian. It is NOT okay to shove your belief on others, or change history to suit your own purpose. Maybe you should practice your religion and be an example of it so others may follow (John 13:15), or pray in the closet (Matt 6:1-8) so you do not behave as the hypocrites do. You might try following the Beatitudes a bit more.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: "don't shove your belief on others". Kind of like liberals who force taxpayers to pay for babies to be killed. Kind of like when liberals force people to accept behavior that is an abomination. Kind of like global warming propaganda,gun propaganda,liberal propaganda. Why don't you read the last verses of Matthew ch. 28.

[GottOngeloof]

Liberals can go to far, just as conservatives can, but the point is ALL people are free. A woman choosing what to do with her own body is no concern of yours, how does it affect you or harm you, except for in your own mind based off your own interpretation of your religious beliefs? Some Christians believe a woman has the right to choose, the same way they believe God gave humans free will. How many abortions are paid for off the tax payers tit? Ridiculous argument!!!

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: how much money does planned parenthood get from the gov.? Also,your argument about a woman and her body is the same as a slave holder arguing for the right to his property.

[GottOngeloof]

A woman's body isn't property of another. The protection fell under the right to privacy sweetheart. See Roe v Wade. A lot less than it cost to engrave just the DC with the religious motifs there. Take the walking tour, it's now supposed to prove Christianity was intended. Tell me, where was Poseidon in the Bible?

[blessedvic]

utube won't let me do them all together so I'll try them one at a time.1-the BABY the woman is carrying is not her property anymore than a slave is the property of the master.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof:2-show me where in the Constitution the "right to privacy" exists. Do you also the "right" of a man to beat his wife as long as it's private and in the bedroom?

[GottOngeloof]

Straw man.

[blessedvic]

3)roe v wade, just like dred scott, is an abomination created out of thin air by the court.

[GottOngeloof]

red herring.

[blessedvic]

4)gottongeloof: do you support dred scott since it was approved by the court?

[blessedvic]

5) how much does the killing of millions of babies cost? Do you believe the founders of this country meant for abortion to be a "right"?

[GottOngeloof]

Fuck Right!!! As if they would know what that was. But they did mean for people to be free of oppressive fucktards as yourself. How's Ken, oh moral one?

[blessedvic]

syrinx:West Virginia 1872, Preamble- Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God...

[GottOngeloof]

West Virginians were Deists. Massachusettans were Puritans like yourself. They were responsible for the Witch Hunts of Salem and declared Benjamin Franklin was a sorcerer for creating the lightning rod.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: show documentation of exactly how many "witches" were executed. ALL West

Virginians were deists? Also I am not puritan although I wish the most liberal state in the country was.

[GottOngeloof]

One was too many. What kind of person are you that would downplay the persecution and execution of innocent people who were killed in the name of a warped religious belief!!!

[subzero961]

I generally view republicans and democrats as 2 sides of the same coin. But I think there will be drastic improvements in separation of church and state under the democrats. For one they dont have the backing of angry fundies.

[blessedvic]

What a bunch of crap.

[Syrinx69]

The Bible? Yes, it is.

[LeftField3]

Im voting republican.

why you ask?

-democrats are soft on terrorism

-support gays, and their agenda

-I am a christian just as most of our founding fathers were who not in one document said anything about separation of chrch and state.

[rkzenrage]

In Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, an agreement signed between the United States and the Muslim region of North Africa in 1797 after negotiations concluded by George Washington (the document, which was approved by the Senate, manyh of whom were founding fathers at the time, in accordance with Constitutional law, and then signed by John Adams), it states flatly, "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." signed by John Adams

[rkzenrage]

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries"

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -James Madison

[Awesomebox360]

-Not True, The Republicans (in the 90's) said we Democrats were TO HARD on Terrorism (Republicans said we shouldn't attack Bin Ladin before 9-11)

-You mean the agenda of EQUALITY. Bigot.

-Actually the Constitution says the U.S. has a Separation of Church and State.

[StoogeWatcher]

Someone "equality" in the liberal agenda does not include Christians and Jews. Pretty ironic, since the same libs who defend Islamic radicals are unaware that groups like Hezbollah kill people for being homosexual.

And here's another way gays get special treatment: Jesse Dirkhising, A 13-year-old killed by two gay men, yet his murder went ignored by the NAMBLA-loving leftists and the media.

[elmosfire1212]

It explicitly declares a separation of Church and state you idiot. It just doesn't say it in those exact words, but it definitely does say it.

[Syrinx69]

-IOW, Democrats do not support illegal wars

-I.E. Support the agenda of Life Liberty and The pursuit of Happiness

-The Founding Fathers were Deists and Unitarians who penned Seperation of Church and State in The Constitution. Not one document mentions Jesus, The Bible or Christianity as a founding element of this country.

[blessedvic]

syrinx: the aclu today would tell deists and unitarians they couldn't pray.Most founders were Christians. They didn't put Christianity in the Constitution because the states already did that. Every state in the union mentions God in their constitutions.

[Syrinx69]

West Virginia does not. Tennessee's only mentions "Lord" in the context of dates.

The others may mention God but they don't mention Jesus, The Bible or Christianity. "God" "Creator" "God Almighty" etc are neutral and not the exclusive property of Christianity. Most founders were Deists/Unitarian. This is a fact whether you accept it or not.

If you wish to get properly educated I invite you to the infidels-dot-org forums.

[blessedvic]

syrinx: I've seen your website. I don't think much of it. Why don't you try "tektonics dot org"

[blessedvic]

syrinx: when any document mentions "Lord" which Lord do you think they are referring to?

[GottOngeloof]

The one of nature. Look up Deism.

[GottOngeloof]

Which do you think? Certainly not yours. You really must educate yourself.

[elbethere]

Only some were christians. Others were deists, and some (like jefferson) doubted the divinity of christ.

[GottOngeloof]

You are incorrect. You need to view the biographies of your founders in the National Archives. God of nature in most cases, not God of man. Besides, the U.S. Constitution also states that no state may enact laws that violate the U.S. Constitution. We are not a collection of separate sovereignties. Thus The UNITED States of America.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: The states were not allowed to violate the original Constitution. The original Constitution only gave the fed. gov. very limited powers thus leaving most power with each state so that the people of each state could decide how they should live.

[GottOngeloof]

And just what were those rights? The rights that affected all women? I hardly think so. The reason civil rights are not in the hands of the states is because ALL Americans are entitled to these rights. If we'd done as you believe, the South would still be segregated! The original Constitution did not contain the Bill of Rights. But the was meant to be amended to suit men as times changed. To do otherwise was oppression. Look up your founders words. They are where I told you before to look.

[GottOngeloof]

And you apparently are forgetting Article I, Section 8, paragraph 18.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: the Bill of Rights does not give people one single right. The founders understood that rights come from God. The Bill of Rights is meant to limit the fed. gov. as to what it is allowed to do.

[GottOngeloof]

Absolutely fucking BULLSHIT! National Archives baby!!!

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: try actually reading the Bill of Rights.Every one says either "Congress shall make no law" or "the right of the people shall not". Try reading where Jefferson said "all men are endowed by their creator with certain inaliable rights". People get their rights from God not government,BABY.

[blessedvic]

syrinx: democrats voted for the war. Only when times get hard they tend to desert their country.

[GottOngeloof]

"It is, indeed, of little consequence who governs us, if they sincerely and zealously cherish the principles of union and republicanism (this means freedom, the right to govern oneself)." --Thomas Jefferson to Henry Dearborn. Jefferson was a Democratic Republican. Get a history book. Or go to the National Archives.

[GottOngeloof]

Please use your search engine to find the article, 'The Conservative Case for Voting Democrat.' It is put out by the CATO Institute. A good conservative such as yourself should be aware of them. Also see, 'Why the Right Is Wrong for America' By Michael Lind, The Conservative Case Against GEORGE W. BUSH By William Bryk, 'Where the Right Went Wrong' Patrick J. Buchanan, 'Even Conservatives Are Wondering: Is Bush One of Us?'in The Nation Magazine.

[blessedvic]

syrinx: where exactly does it say "sep.of church&state" in the constitution?

[elbethere]

It does not. However, it is alluded to in the establishment clause of the first amendment, and elaborated on in the private leters of our founders.

[GottOngeloof]

It is clarified in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists. Who unlike you, understood this protected their right as well as others.

[blessedvic]

gottongeloof: when did a private letter written yrs. after the Constitution become an official government document?

[GottOngeloof]

When the Supreme Court chose to use ALL of the records in the Thomas Library, Library of Congress and the National Archives to determine what the founders intent was. They are public documents.

[StoogeWatcher]

Are you libs planning to protest in Minnesota over the impending Sharia? Oh that's right, Democrats hate Christianity! And hte only reason libs didn't defend Terri Schiavo is because she wasn't a gangbanger, terrorist, or cop-killer!

[Awesomebox360]

You really know nothing about Democrats, AND you should NOT be aloud to vote because of you're highly ignorant views.

[elmosfire1212]

Actually, most Democratic Senators, ordinary people and representatives are Christians dumb-dumb. I'm not, but I certainly don't HATE Christians...What makes you think we would? It's just Christian creation 'science' we hate, or the Christian hatred of homosexuals.

[BeatBuddy]

Especially with stem cell research, the rest of the world looks upon Americans as stupid, and they're right.

[hughmurris]

i agree. But you all didnt mention that under the guise of the Faith Based Initiative, this administration has given millions to their favored religious cronies.

[swedeboy1]

I'm voting Democrat...again.

[AbsolutelyNothingTHB]

Not so Good THIS TIME!

AbsolutelyNothingTHB