Arkle 1965 Whitbread Gold Cup

[alipitogen]

I was born in 1963.When I was nine years of age I used to walk home from school with a chap called Liam who loved racing.He was a Pendil fan and I knew Captain Christy was better.Then I mentioned Arkle and he declared that Pendil was better than Himself too.Even at that age I knew that I couldn't really take this chap seriously any more. More years pass and it's Best Mate, now it's Kauto Star. At this stage it's a bit like the second coming. I'm one racing fan who knows how long the wait may be.

[Damotf]

i say if pat taffe really pushed arkle he coud have won by 50 lenghts

[pont123456789]

best horse ever been in my opinion

[thisiswho2]

Has the BBC ever covered the Whitbread Gold Cup or any Sandown Park meetings?

[rohansrider]

Hands and heels - no whip. Simply magnificent.

[alipitogen]

Look what happens at 2.32 in this video and then visit the YT video of Red Rum in the 1977 Grand National. There, at 4.54, you will see the exact same thing, a jockey on a horse that's trying to catch a legend looks over his shoulder and wonders can he stay second !

[pglogofilms]

I was at Sandown on this day, standing down at The Pond Fence with my father. Seeing Arkle from such close range left a lasting impression. There really will never be another.

[alipitogen]

Most racing folk accept that Arkle was the supreme chaser. Would anyone be surprised at my nomination for the second best ? Wait for it................Mill House! If they had not happened to coincide how many Gold Cups would he have won and how great would be the debate about the mythical dream encounter? Alas for the great Mill House the question was fully answered but for my money he got closer to Arkle at levels than any other we've seen would have. All the rest would race for 3rd.

[TissuePrices]

@alipitogen milhouse was a poor mans arkle in a very weak era, niether could live with kauto not even on their best day

[alipitogen]

@TissuePrices I know Kauto Star is a brilliant horse and I'm a fan.I would not like to see this happen but if they stuck 12 stone 7 pounds on Kauto's back and sent him around Fairyhouse in the Irish Grand National(see Arkle on yt in it) I know what would happen. Top chasers are now wrapped in cotton wool. Arkle was the greatest and the fact Mill House got so near to him at levels means that Kauto, Best Mate, even Captain Christy would have been out with the washing against both.

[TissuePrices]

@alipitogen your basing thisall on the notion that arkle beat great horeses, he didnt, he only facked 10 donkeys to his 3 gold cups, arkle the best of his time ahead of his time, but racing has moved on, kauto is the best, and hes not a specalist, ie he can do it over any distance, conditions, thats what makes him no1

[artexjohn]

I dont think you will, he was to good to be true.

[folkiekev]

When I hear that name ARKLE, the shivers just go up my spine - the greatest.

[footstatic]

my cousin trained arkle.

[alipitogen]

My best regards to you too, Tarqogan. I've often gone overboard too.I did so love Beef or Salmon but was he as good as I thought? I hope all of us enjoy a great Cheltenham this year. What I want to see is Denman and Kauto Star both at their best. If that happened my head would say Kauto and my heart Den.There's something about the big old-fashioned chasing battleship about him and I'd love if Kauto didn't quite get past him.They deseve two each anyway ..... maybe something else will win.

[tarqogan]

Isn't that strange? I was a fan of Beef and Salmon too. He had a horrible name ,but he was the type of chaser that appealed to me. Unfortunately he didn't seem to travel well. Every time he came over from Ireland he always disappointed; he just didn't seem to run up to his Irish form. I hoped that he might have been good enough to win a Gold Cup, but it was not to be. I just hope that he has a long a happy retirement now. Yes, I'm also looking forward to the clash between KS and Denman.

[alipitogen]

BoS was very easy to make excuses for, but I do think some were valid. He was surely injured in that first Gold Cup fall.Many horses had consistency and many had brilliance.Very few had both. And in saying that I know I have to remember the Golden Cygnets, Bright Highways, Killineys etc. of racing. Oh! and I forgot about Sea the Stars - just another great racing career cut short , cynically speaking ! I'm enjoying this , we'll have to disagree on something soon.

[tarqogan]

I was devastated when Golden Cygnet was tragically killed in the Scottish Champion Hurdle. He had so much potential and would surely have run up a sequence in the Champion Hurdle. Killiney too promised so much. He was one of the best novice chases I have seen but, again, he was tragically killed. I know that Bright Highway won a Hennessy Gold Cup, but I don't know what happened to him after that. My two favourite horses of all time were before your time. Nicolaus Silver and Sea Bird II.

[alipitogen]

You're very kind to say that, Tarqogan. I'm very proud to receive a compilment like that from you. I think I can very safely return you the same compliment too. It's good to stand back a bit from the hype and think a little bit more about our subject. I can see that you do that.

[tarqogan]

It was meant as a compliment ,alipitogen, but it is quite obviously a fact too. I imagine we've both seen horses look like world beaters only to flop the next time they run. I have ,in the past ,jumped on the bandwagon and sung the praises of this or that horse only to end up with egg on my face when the horse in question didn't live up to my expectations. But as you have also found, alipitogen, with experience you begin to disregard the hype and take a more measured approach. Many thanks.

[alipitogen]

If you study Denman's win two years ago you will see that his gallop around the home turn was almost Arkle like in strength.However,he definitely began to tie up on the hill which allowed a probably under-form Kauto Star to gain on him. Arkle, however, would have been out of sight with the combined speed and gallop of both (and then some! )-and that is why at the home turn you could often see "Himself" having a wee look round to see if anything more interesting was happening!

[alipitogen]

I envy any racing fan who was cognizant in Arkle's time.I was born in '63 but I'm reduced to tears looking at the footage now. I'm proud to be a racing fan who's sensible enough to put him in his rightful place. He was like a comet that only turns up once in a thousand years.

[tarqogan]

alipitogen, that analogy of Arkle being like a comet which only appears once in a thousand years is absolutely brilliant! I wish I had thought of it. You are obviously a very knowledgeable racing fan and a 'thinker' who sees the whole picture. My sincere regards to you.

[alipitogen]

Regaining the Gold Cup is not such a distinction when you consider that you have to lose one to regain it. Arkle never needed to regain it and to be fair neither did Best Mate, but then, he never met a Denman.

[alipitogen]

I love Kauto Star, I would say he's much more deserving of comparison with Arkle than the over-hyped Best Mate. But if you really want to compare him to Arkle then stick 12 stone 7 pounds on his back in an Irish Grand National at Fairyhouse and we'll talk about it afterwards.  P.S. I'm glad that doesn't happen any more.

[tarqogan]

Yes, alipitogen, it is unfair to burden horses with the massive weights that they were expected to shoulder from the 1920's right through to the 1960's. I can remember seeing horses carrying 13 stone in the 1960's. I believe that those sort of weights probably contributed to the many injuries horses sustained at that time.

[foriamonlyahorse2]

Kauto Star was amazing in the King George.

However, Desert Orchid carried 12st 3lb in a very, very high class Racing Post handicap & beat top class Delius 8l giving 2 st. He beat the 3rd Seagram, by more than 20l giving 2.5st. At levels he too would have won by 30l+++. Both Delius & Seagram were better horses than the placed horses behind Kauto. That gives it some kind of perspective.

Arkle was superb, freak of a horse. Kauto is quite brilliant but bot quite Arkle class yet.

[tarqogan]

Check your facts before you make illogical statements, TissuePrices! Kauto Star has fallen on at least two occasions to my knowledge; Arkle NEVER fell in any of the races he contested. Every time you open your mouth to try to defend KS you just put your foot in it. You must hate the taste of shoe leather!

[TissuePrices]

no i am just making u look silly, u r in denial kauto is the best ever at all distances

[tarqogan]

Kauto Star is not called the White Knuckle Ride for nothing! His other nickname is The Blunderer. Arkle would have beaten KS on three legs.

[TissuePrices]

its ok i know u will never admit it , but deep down u know kauto is the best

[tarqogan]

I have, finally, realised what you are trying to do on these posts. You are really an Arkle fan, but in order to keep this debate going you are playing devil's advocate so that you can gauge how few people support KS. I think the ratio is one in 50,000.

[TissuePrices]

lol arkle is a donkey

[tarqogan]

Well it takes one to know one,doesn't it , TissuePrices?

[tarqogan]

How come you haven't responded to my last post . Hit a raw nerve with the remark about the donkey, have I ,TissuePrices?

[TissuePrices]

lol u trying to change the subject, just admit it, admit kauto is the best

[tarqogan]

I don't know what you're taking, Neddy,but it's definitely scrambled your brains, but on second thoughts you really don't need to take anything to achieve that effect. As for The Blunderer, well there's no guarantee that he'll get round in the Gold Cup.

[TissuePrices]

lol only horse EVER to REGAIN the gold cup, EVER

[tarqogan]

Arkle won three Gold Cups in succession and would have won a fourth if he hadn't broke a bone in his foot when running in the King George. Arkle was NEVER beaten when he ran in the Gold Cup, unlike The Blunderer.

[TissuePrices]

werent u the clown who said kauto wasnt even the best horse in his yard, what say yee now?

[tarqogan]

What I said ,Neddy, if you care to read my post again, was if The Blunderer had to concede 16lbs to Denman that Denman would bury him. So what do I care if Denman unseated McCoy today. The Blunderer and Denman fall or unseat their rider, Arkle NEVER did. Now,Neddy , get back in your pram and play with your toys.

[tarqogan]

I think that it is extremely revealing that in all the posts here on YouTube, there is just ONE solitary dissenting voice who believes that Kauto Star is better chaser than Arkle was. Whilst that person , as deluded as he undoubtedly is, is perfectly entitled to his opinion. However he must surely realise that his is a voice in the wilderness and no-one else shares that opinion.

[MrPapaBill]

Arkle broke Sandown's £m chase course record by 17 seconds, when conceding 16Ilbs to his great rival, Mill House.

Can you imagine Kauto Star trying to concede that amount of weight to Denman.

Just wouldn't happen.

Arkle was a freak - the greatest of all.

[tarqogan]

Once again,MrPapaBill, you've hit the nail right on the head! Have you noticed that nearly everyone concurs with your assessment and are of perfectly sound mind? It is just the odd one or two who are completely NON COMPOS MENTIS!

[TissuePrices]

and how often does kauto run at sandown?

kauto smashed arkles king geore record.

arkle is a great, but not the greatest, kauto is

[tarqogan]

When did Kauto Star last carry 12stone 7lbs and break a course record which, incidentally, has stood for 44 years. ? Kauto Star AND Denman are great ,but not in the same league as Arkle. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see Denman turn over Kauto Star AGAIN in the forthcoming Gold Cup!

[TissuePrices]

kauto is high class horse he does not do handicaps, he does grade1s and he wins them emhpahtically

as for denman i think thats just wishful thinking on your part, ur hoping somone can beat kauto so that u've got someone on ur side in the arkle/kauto debate

kauto is 6/4 i suggest you lump on him, he will take denman to the cleaners

[tarqogan]

You should be taking stronger medication for that complaint of yours!

[DonaldKiddick]

I'm not an avid Arkle fan, but can appreciate him for what he was, and that is a freak of nature. They even had to change the rules of racing to accommodate him. That said, I am a big Denman fan, and consider him the better, even if only slightly, of Kauto Star. On a left hand track Denman will always beat Kauto Star (health problems aside). At Kempton over 3 miles then Kauto would prevail. Come March, and both turn up 100%, then there can only be one outcome, and that is a Denman win.

[TissuePrices]

denman will always win? how on earth can you say denman is a better horse when kauto has a higher rating? and has won more yet they are the same age? even if denman wins which he wont he still wont be better then kauto

[raborian]

you just said that kauto is the greatest yet he is rated 21 lbs inferior to arkle.. make ur mind up son ;)

[TissuePrices]

the rating timeform gave were obviously not accurate, timeform didnt even care about jumps when they started

[tarqogan]

So, TissuePrices, are you saying that if there were a race today such as the Hennessy Gold Cup and BOTH Arkle and Kauto Star were entered in it ,the handicapper would frame the race so that Kauto Star would be giving weight to Arkle? If that is what you are saying then I could guarantee that not one of today's handicappers would retain their jobs for long.

[tarqogan]

Can you please explain to me why you post here on a forum where everyone firmly believes ,and rightly so, that Arkle is a much better chaser than Kauto Star, and yet I can only find one comment from you on ALL the Kauto Star forums. That's odd coming from someone who professes to be such a huge fan of KS and yet CONSTANTLY posts on an forum where EVERYONE is pro Arkle. If you purpose is to try and convert people over to the KS camp then you're not having much success are you?

[TissuePrices]

go to kauto king geore win many ppl suporting kauto there,

i made one comment on here, you responded so im giving you the answer, obviously the truth i speak is hurting you, you know deep down kauto is the best, but your such an avid arkle can you cant bring yourself to say it, so now you want to stop posting cos the truth hurts?

[tarqogan]

Obviously you can't come up with a convincing enough explanation to the question I asked you and now you resort to waffling. I have a strong suspicion that you don't believe what you say in your support of KS. It doesn't make sense to me that someone would bang on about a horse on a forum where EVERYONE else supports the other horse . I've said it before,TissuePrices, and I'll repeat it; you are mixed up and sadly deluded.

[tarqogan]

Yes, TissuePrices, many OTHER people ARE supporting Kauto Star, but not YOU!

[raborian]

fuckin hell u really are deluded or else just a pathetic attempt for a wind up merchant or else mentally ill... just caught wind of your nacarat comment there.. hahahahahahah!!!!

pls confirm that this is a joke!! as for your remark regarding racing has moved on from handicaps to grade 1s, well yes it has but the horses haven't! if arkle had as many shoe in conditions races to run in as kauto has today he'd of walked them by 30 lengths EVERY time ,

[TissuePrices]

anyone who thinkgs arkle could have beaten caught and given him 2stone is the deluded one, arkle rating has been hyped up.

[tarqogan]

TissuePrices,I'm certain that you are a very nice guy, but I 'm afraid you are wrong if you believe that Kauto Star could beat Arkle at level weights or even in receipt of a stone. I think a 2 stone concession MIGHT have been a problem for Arkle. Just imagine the damage Arkle would do to the average opposition, KS and Denman apart, he would encounter today if he were competing in all those easy grade one races instead of having to make massive weight concessions to all his opponents.

[raborian]

when did i ever say that arkle would definitely do that.. all i ever said was that arkle is the greatest!.. which he is!! check out his record.. he won 2 gold cups on the bridle by 20 + 30 lenghts for starters.. get back to me when kauto does that..

[TissuePrices]

well if u believe arkles rating then you belive he will beat kauto by 2stone which is what the ratings say

[raborian]

no, its 21lbs which roughly translates as a 15 lenghts win for arkle on level weights.. one can never be totally sure to the lb how accurate these ratings are and of course they will never meet as they're from different generations but kauto would definitely have a chance against arkle in receipt of 21 lbs!! all sorts of things would come into it .. jumping.. trip.. ground! no 2 races are ever the same.. ya just never know!!!

[raborian]

the only level weight argument involving arkle up for debate is the flyingbolt one.. (also trained by tom dreaper and officially rated 2 lb inferior to "himself") .. some close form lines involving" height o fashion" suggest he might have had his measure, but they were kept apart so we'll never know for definite..

[kopkingstevie]

You do know the reason there is a handicap system today is because of arkle he was so good they had to re write the handicapper , If arkle were to go up against kauto star today he would distroy him, arkles handicap rating has been gone over time and time again and they do not have a reason to change it arkle won on the flat over less than a mile so he has serious speed and he had the stamina to go 3 miles he was a freak and all ways will be the greatest ever

[TissuePrices]

arkle rating is being revied, because it is dubious, he cant be kauto giving him 2stone, in my opnion he would not get with in 2 furlongs of kauto

[kopkingstevie]

well your opinion is wrong very wrong in my opinion denman is a better horse than kauto star and if paul nicholls and ruby walsh cant seperate denman and kauto how can you even think that kauto would beat arkle, when you watch these videos arkle has 2 stone more on his back than these horses so imagine what he would have done on leven weights arkle still holds the track record round sandown with 12 stone on his back

[kopkingstevie]

The racing authorities in Ireland took the unprecedented step in the Irish Grand National of devising two weight systems — one to be used when Arkle was running and one when he wasn't. Arkle won the 1964 race by only one length but he carried two and half stones more than his rivals. do you think kauto star could do that ?Dont think so

[kopkingstevie]

Besides winning three consecutive Cheltenham Gold Cups (1964, 1965, 1966) and the 1965 King George VI Chase Arkle triumphed in a number of important handicap chases including the 1964 Irish Grand National (under 12-0) , the 1964 and 1965 Hennessy Gold Cups (both times under 12-7), the 1965 Gallagher Gold Cup (conceding 16 lb to Mill House and breaking the course record by 17 seconds),

[TissuePrices]

in other words he beat one horse?

arkle was the best of his time no doubt, and yes he is one of the the greats, but he would have no chance against kauto

arkle vs kauto match better

arkle 8/1 kauto 1/20

[kopkingstevie]

ha ur such an idiot your not even worth talking to!arkle beat the best horse in england who was rated 191 that is mill house kautos best rating is 192 arkle is rated 212 kauto isnt even the best horse in paul nicholls yard never mind better than arkle

[TissuePrices]

umm kauto is the best today, his rating + his cv proves it

as for arkle rating, u not been listening have u? his rating is so dubious that it going to be reviwed, the results will be published in may.

typical arkle fan always cheering on denman just becos deep down u know kauto would batter arkle, so you just want someoone to beat him. it aint gonna happen, kauto is the best to date

[kopkingstevie]

i think you have been living under a rock arkles rating has been reviewed several time in the last 10 years and they actually were going to put it up so if they are going to review it again it may go up.Denmans cv is actually more impressive than kauto stars denmans win in this years hennessy carrying top weight and beating last years english national and irish national winners and what a friend who came 2nd has won a group 1 since who has kauto beat imperieal commander ? catch a grip

[tarqogan]

You are proving to everyone just how little you really know about horse racing TissuePrices, by making totally ludicrous and asinine statements which only you believe. Kauto Star good horse that he is, beats a moderate horse 36 lengths and everyone is calling him a world beater. The horse he beat, Madison de Berlais was trounced at Cheltenham a couple of weeks ago by other moderate chasers. Wake up and face facts KS is bottom of the Championship compared to Arkle's top of the Premiership.

[TissuePrices]

cheltenham is not madison track everyone knows that

madison is a grade one winner, and hes won a hennessy hes no mug.

arkle was a poor jumper and couldnt hack it in todays class

[tarqogan]

All you ever do in these posts is contradict yourself, TissuePrices. You have stated that handicaps are beneath KS and then in the next breath you are banging Madison de Berlais' drum for winning the Hennessy Gold Cup ( which is a handicap). You really haven't got a clue, have you, TissuePrices? All you have done is make yourself look very silly.

[tarqogan]

Kauto Star will NEVER be required to concede weight to horses of the calibre of Denman simply because he is not up to it. A fully fit Denman would BURY Kauto Star in receipt of 16lbs,but , of course. that will never be allowed to happen.

[TissuePrices]

kauto only runs grade1s thats what all the top horse today bar denman do.

racing has moved on from arkles days its not about handicaps its about grade1s.

[tarqogan]

Yawn.. Yawn... Yawn.

[sirreghead]

Arkle would give a stone to Denman and Kauto star,and still beat them.

[TissuePrices]

arkle wouldnt beat nacarat nevermind kauto

[tarqogan]

I'm on to you, TissuePrices, you are simply taking the mickey. After all,nobody could be THAT stupid!

[julzyboy1973]

@TissuePrices

Bet you think that Lennox Lewis would have beaten Muhammad Ali aswell.

[TissuePrices]

reckon mike tyson would have beaten him

[tukoramerez]

Apart from reputation I dont have a great knowledge of ARKLE but old school tell me he was in another league, From the race I just watched I would say ARKLE jumped for fun and was probably rarely tested unless giving lumps of weight, Not many horses jump for fun around Sandown / this fella looks better than what I have heard / a real privalege to watch !!!

[markobaggio]

oh and while i think of it, the track record he set?..it still stands!!!,,4o years on Arkle is STILL the fastest horse around sandown, and he did it with 12/7 on his back, first run of the season *no warm up race around exeter or naas!* and it was that Gallagher gold cup that Mill House was set alight by D.Nicholson and set a furious gallop on 2nd circuit making every fence a winning post!, yet Arkle strollled up and pulverised em all by 20 lengths!!!...again Best Mate/Kauto/Denman?? hahaahha

[foriamonlyahorse]

No question that Arkle was the best ever chaser but to belittle those other brave horses with childish comments like 'hahaha' I mean you are clearly NO racing fan.

Best Mate a gutsy three time Gold Cup winner...Denman an outstanding winner of a Gold Cup & a Henessey & the wonderfully classy & tough Kauto Star who put in a truly amazing performance in this years cup....get a life markobaggio...

[tarqogan]

Best Mate, Denman, Kauto Star, Desert Orchid, One Man and a host of others I hope I will be forgiven for omitting to mention are and were GREAT steeplechasers, there is no argue whatsoever about that. I, personally, wouldn't dream of belittling the achievements of these magnificent chasers. I derive just as much pleasure watching the modern day greats as I did when watching the exploits of Arkle, Mill House and Flyingbolt way back in the 1960's.

[markobaggio]

foriamonlyahorse listen am laughing at the so called racing fans who tried to compare those horses with @himself@ not the horses themselves, so you best get a life my lad........racing fan?..been watching since 1967, first race i ever saw was foinavon's national..hooked ever since, grandfather and uncle trained in ireland for years...so perhaps you can tell me how long YOU have been a @fan@??... now please get a life ;)

[markobaggio]

the ultimate horse,,his performance in 65 in the gallagher gold cup is even more astonishing, 12/7 on his back and he broke the track record by 17 seconds, i have seen the footage once shown on channel4 apparantly rte tv still have it somewhere ,,absolutely breathkaing performance......kauto star/denman??...dont make me laugh!! hahahaha

[marsvltor2]

Remember - in Arkle's heyday, there were two handicaps in operation, depending on if Himself was running. Under normally handicapping, EVERY other horse would have been out of the handicap... THAT is class of a differentr order...

[turnpike01]

The best horse EVER.He was clever and only did what was necessary.Thank you VERY much for sharing with us something that will never be forgotten.Lucky Pat Taaffe is riding him again in heaven.

[2gther4ever]

Arkle, The Champion!

[mayes2777]

no true but form shows that flying bolt would of beat arkle they raced against same horses and flying bolt gave more weight and won by further so if u go on form which every 1 does its a fact but we will never find out !!!

[mayes2777]

flying bolt was better!!!

[francilius]

If that is your opinion, fair enough. However if it is an assertion then  you cannot possibly have the proof to substantiate that claim as Arkle and Flyingbolt never met in a competitive race.

[anglopp]

An awesome animal, will we ever see another one like him.

[francilius]

Arkle was giving a huge amount of weight to Brasher,but the result of the race was never in doubt. Arkle really was a truly amazing horse,a freak of nature.