Personal Liberty and the Public Option - Thomas Murray

[nasaguy]

(Continued) Instead of "individual mandate", he prefers the term "universal participation". But participation implies voluntary action, which is the opposite of a mandate. It creates the ILLUSION that we all care about each other, but its not real. And private dollars sunk into a health insurance pool are still private, but he characterizes them as community dollars to justify government control of them. This man is the most dangerous kind of liar the kind that doesnt know he is lying.

[nasaguy]

Im sure this man means well, but he's still flat wrong. He has misunderstood what "freedom" is. Freedom is you living your life the way you want, without others standing in your way. It does NOT that you have to help ME so *I* can live my life the way *I* want. Then my freedom comes only at your expense, and thats morally wrong. But he doesn't care about that distinction. (continued next comment)

[alvincay100]

Yeah, but if we bankrupt ourselves then nobody can have liberty either. The USA is already in debt enough and a public option is sure to increase that.

[welkinator]

Yes, I agree with other posters here; where did he get this concept of "community money"?

What community put out their work effort for currency and then donated the money to communal health care?

I sure didn't sign up for such a community; did you?

...welkinator

[caltrop69]

All I ever hear when I listen to these immoral bastards talk about health care is, "Let me steal your money and give it to someone else."

[Hellooo20]

Socialism FTW!!!

[rebharath]

dude reminds me of gorbachev

[yoshi3329]

More socialist dribble. Ugh.

[freesk8]

Murray is a collectivist who is promoting socialism using the language of freedom and choice.

Govt monopoly health care, which is the real goal here, will make the poor much worse off than they are now.

[marsCubed]

Do not go and twist my words.

It is the right who speak of 'evil doers' and urgency to compete, terror of faiure that you need to rationalize letting others die.

because they can't afford to live in your system,

You are a miserable penny counter, it makes you feel clever, because it is all you know.

conservatism is boring.

nothing but shopping and greed.

it is empty, no solutions.

the bubble popped.

conservatism was a myth,

even Adam Smith argued for equality.

[Bobbiethejean]

Yes, congress is wasteful with our tax dollars. That can be solved by the American people getting up off their lazy asses and demanding some respect as well as accountability.

But you want to be "left alone," eh? Let's see how you like it when you have no airplanes, no roads, no public schools, no FDA, no traffic lights, no running water, no electricity, and no military protection. Gee, that sounds an awful like Somalia which happens to be a 3rd world hellhole. Coincidence? No.

[marsCubed]

Oh the old FED Jewish banking conspiracy again.

And you say you are not far right?

when are people like you going to wake up. the conspiracy is the conspiracy.

Alex Jones led the anti war movement into obscurity. people pulling your strings are same oil corps, they even have you singing global warming is 'conspiracy'.

You are a disgrace to your country IMO.

[marsCubed]

justone', that statement is ridiculous to anyone outside of your very small circle.

The rest of the planet has sees the USA as very conservative state. healthcare is an example.

The USA, with President Obama is saner and more together than it has seemed in decades.

Nobody is out to kill you. we are all in the same boat.

balanced economy, good to people, do what works.

yours is ranting conservative dogma.

it belongs in the age of empire and in trade wars.

not in regular trade, esp not healthcare

[Bobbiethejean]

This isn't about dumb people having more children than they can afford. It's about the fact that 64% of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills and 78% of those people HAD health insurance. THAT is what it's about.

Furthermore, there are MANY more reasons children end up on the streets than "stupid parents." And even still, is "stupid parents" a reason to let children die? In America? Really? Aren't we supposed to be that shining city on the hill?

[ls1z28chris]

This video is about a health care debate in America, and you are rambling about taxes going to jews. lol

I think we should abandon Israel, but what the fuck does that, or Henry fucking war criminal Kissinger have to do with health care?

[ls1z28chris]

Everyone who opposes government health care is not a neo-con.

[ls1z28chris]

You are bitching and moaning about having to spend money to stay alive, calling it wage slavery? You've got to be fucking kidding me, man. Your logic can be applied to anything, including food. I need calories from food to make my body work. I have to pay for food with money. Wage slavery!

Absolutely insane.

[marsCubed]

justonemorename, If we invest in people properly, we can eliminate most crime. That is freedom for everybody.

Education is the freedom for your kids to pick and choose a job, to live amongst educated people.

flexible economy and informed democracy.

America is beautiful, a sunny afternoon, paper-boy ringing a bell, smiles on people's faces.kid on skates.

new innovation, good work, stunning country,

What happened to it is called neglect.

money is like manure, it is no good if it is all in one spot

[ls1z28chris]

None of what you've written has anything to do with freedom.

The problem with America isn't neglect. It is a pervasive and growing attitude that everyone is owed something simply on account of existing. The only thing you are owed, in America, are the basic rights protected by our Constitution, and equality under that law. Other than that, you are entitled to nothing. The problem is that people think now they're entitled to health care, a job, housing, college, cars, TVs, etc.

[marsCubed]

I am not going to interpret your constitution for you,

A political document of such note, and which lies a the foundation of the American state, is really for those Americans who are entitled to vote to decide. that is why you have representation and to manage whatever taxes you deem necessary.

My comment is labelled opinion.

My opinion is that conservatism is neglect, It is conservatism's most striking feature.

In some kind of bizarre proof of concept ritual,

America pays big.

[Mastikator]

Freedom from consequences is not freedom.

[marsCubed]

Someone is dying and in pain. there is a table with some medicine on it which would cure them,

what do you do?

I would give them the medicine.

If I didn't, I would not be a human being.

It is a human right to have medicines and treatments which will pick you up again.

it is only human.

[marsCubed]

Conservative ideology does not apply to health where numbers are people.

Keep your penny pinching corps away from people's families and lives.

Healthcare is a right in the UK, not a privilege for the few.

People become prisoners to their wage just to stay alive in the USA.

Healthcare is free. there is no test.

That is the principle it was founded on.

How many times do you need to hear this?

dying or being in pain, while there is medicine there that could help you.

Is a human right!

[GOPsithlord]

Prisoner to a...wage? Marxist terminology? That can't be taken seriously.

Health care is not a "right" and people die by the bushel waiting for care that they will never get in the public system in the UK.

[marsCubed]

If the USA taxed the same as Europe, every American would be $11,000 better off during the Bush years.

Think of how many new businesses that could have started.

or education it could have paid for.

or lost homes

The principle is that you take some of the cream and spread it around.

That you invest too. This is not taxing regular Americans, this is taxing the richest few % more.

Tax the rich. it evens it out some more and Everybody does better. pick people up.

Northern Europe has next to no crime

[JAROSLAVAGINA]

not necessarily. taxation also suppresses innovation, and investment. Tax cuts are also what pulled us out of the previous recession.

[GOPsithlord]

Soaking the rich will do little else than deter them from employing others or for that matter investing in their communities. Class warfare on the top 1% will not cover the costs and that's the dirty secret proponents of the public option won't tell you. In the end it's not really an "option". The population will have to pay into an inefficient system they ultimately do not want.

[marsCubed]

All I am saying is that in the UK where I am, I, like everybody else are really happy with public healthcare.

It is not perfect, but private is still there for those who want perks and plastic surgery.

But if you or anybody you know, anyone in your family, get ill, it is all free. That is a lovely way to live, it truly is liberating.

Sweden and Norway have the highest taxes in the world. and the WEALTHIEST populations in the world.

Investment pays. educated people are difficult to push around.

[marsCubed]

That was slightly misleading, In the UK plastic surgery is obviously all free too.

The thing which you will probably have to pay for in the UK is totally unnecessary things like boob jobs. unless you are really messed up about it.

But of course, you could get that anyway privately.

It lifts people up, whole families go down through debt otherwise.. just because a loved child is ill.

that is so appalling IMO

America you have to do this, it is a good thing.

Go for the public option.

It's brilliant

[GOPsithlord]

Sweden and Norway are also sitting on a few billion dollars in oil they refuse to exploit and have an astronomical tax rate Americans would never accept.

[Bobbiethejean]

I didn't say all Americans are 100% go-fuck-yourself. I meant that it is the prevailing attitude among many conservatives, and it seems to be.

[fdny9682]

If we could all pursue any field we wanted without consequence(example an artist) Than overnight you would have 50 million new artists. I wouldnt fight fires anymore I'd paint pictures. The problem with his perversion of freedom is it comes at the cost of others

[marsCubed]

justonemorename, I am in the UK, I am NOT a number!

I am a free man, here is how free I am, I do not have to worry about medical expenses. EVER.

My whole life I have had free, excellent healthcare.

It is regularly voted what we are most proud of as a nation. And if you want to go private, where they grade you by income, then you still can.

But do not try and push your stupid numbering insult onto others.

Don't be a corporate arse sucker.

[JAROSLAVAGINA]

the problem we have is that health insurance is tied to employement. if you want costs to drop, and you to reduce the problems with "pre-existing conditions" then make it a system where individuals buy coverage individually, not through their employer.

[greenhell666]

couldnt agree more, all that right wing liberty and freedom talk is completely fake

north american individualism is sickening

[Bobbiethejean]

It's not even individualism so much as go-fuck-yourselfism.

Single mother got cancer? Go fuck yourself. Bankrupted paying for treatment? Go fuck yourself. Wound up on the street because of it? Go fuck yourself. What happens to the children? Go fuck yourself.

The conservative answer to everything seems to be go fuck yourself.

[JAROSLAVAGINA]

the liberal answer is "we can't afford it? fuck it!"

[Bobbiethejean]

Politicians in general are money-grubbing slime-shits. But if you actually look at people, real people, most want healthcare reform, including republicans and independents.

[Luinreg]

Except most people know that nothing is truly free and in the case of health care the money is going to come out of an increase of taxes.

Could you imagine how much small business men can exercise their business's profits by investing in itself if they did not have to pay for their employee's health insurance?

Could you imagine knowing that even without a job that you are still paying for your health insurance and able to focus your attention not on health bills?

[ls1z28chris]

Another liberal asshat who thinks that "freedom" means getting free shit like healthcare or housing.  *yawn*

[Bobbiethejean]

Another unconscionable conservative who thinks it's perfectly okay to let children die in the streets because their parents couldn't afford healthcare.

Inhuman, indecent, immoral.

[ls1z28chris]

1) I'm not a conservative.

2) You know damn good and well that the debate about a public option is not about finding a way to provide health care to uninsured children in poverty.

3) I'd rather our taxes go to free abortions for the poor than free health care.

4) I'm not in the habit of having babies I cannot afford. Take your assertions of immorality and slap it on the poor people who keep popping out babies with no real expectation of being able to provide for them.

[Bobbiethejean]

1.) Ok.

2.) It's about making sure people have affordable healthcare.

3.) What you really mean: "go fuck yourselves."

4.) Death, cancer, fire, flood, car accident, illness, hurricane, tornado, earthquake, Alzheimer's etc. It's not about "having too many kids" and it's horridly classist to say so.

5.) We don't. That's a ludicrous mischaracterization, or as I like to call it, strawmangling. 64% of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills and 78% of those HAD health insurance.

[marsCubed]

Now I know you are a loony, In Europe we have left parties, real ones arguing for things like better wages.

You are the one doing the obscuring, Trying to persuade less educated people with rants, of things which are clearly against people's interest.

And why? because that is what you stand for, like a sports team, inequality.

The obscenity of poverty, and it isn't even for the benefit of the few now.

because USA is left behind. the stupid and sick one which spent it all on holidays for the rich

[Bobbiethejean]

Is this directed at me? Wtf?

[ls1z28chris]

2) Then why bring up poor children and then call me inhuman? (That's a rhetorical question. I know why. I'm not going to engage in a debate over emotion.)

3) No, what I mean is that I'll pay to have your kid aborted now so that I don't have to "abort" him when he's a teenager, or pay for his stay in a wonderful American penitentiary. Poor people who can't afford kids and don't want them should be able to get abortions.

[ls1z28chris]

4 & 5) So then why are you asking for a government run health insurance scheme that would pay for routine things like eye exams and visits to the doctor for the cold? If what you're worried about is bankruptcy from unplanned serious, catastrophic illness, why not simply have government subsidize those rare (statistically) cases that exhaust a health care plan and then that person's net worth? Why an NHS style entity rather than a type of "gap protection" for people?

[ls1z28chris]

5) Nothing you said answers the question of why liberals thing "freedom" means "free shit." The rest of us understand pretty easily that freedom means the freedom to live how you choose without your rights being trampled by the state. It doesn't mean freedom to take what you need from someone else when your irresponsible decision making kicks you in the cunt.