So you don't have sex with animals, and the reason you don't because your god supposedly doesn't want that... and you say that with a straight face... *sigh*
Look at the comparison of states who are more atheist to those who are more religious. There is a constant pattern of more crime and lower IQ in the more religious states. Religion is ignorance.
The greatest atrocities in our history where committed behind religion or religious-like cults/followings.
It is a statistical fact: The more secular or non-religious a state or country, the less crime and higher education there is. Happiness is also higher. You are no better than any other idiot theist
@ImBackAJ20101 Actually you should realize that Communism is an Atheist state and has killed and oppressed more humans than any other system in the history of the world. Think Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin
@Bodhitharta That is the oldest and most false argument used against atheists (oldest in modern arguments). Surprised you left-out Hitler, he was fascist, but you might as well. Hitler was a Roman Catholic and talked about religion a lot. So I guess Christians are Nazis? Seems like a stupid equation but you just did that to Atheists. BTW, look at the dictators you just mentioned, all of which were NOT atheist and never called themselves as such, and their ruling was more of a cult-like control
@ImBackAJ20101 The argument is very real and yes they did identify themselves as Atheist and suppressed religion and in most cases outlawed it. If you knew history you would have an argument but you do not.
@Bodhitharta Did you even read anything about history? The Pope and Hitler signed a treaty when he came into power. Christian teaching was mandatory IN ALL German schools. they celebrated the popes birthday every year. On every germ officers belt buckle it said in German: "God is on our side" This is all fact. You are completely oblivious to history. And you misunderstood what I meant by states. I meant states in the USA. But if you want to talk about countries (continued)
@Bodhitharta You mentioned Stalin and communism being atheist. (and Mao). You then later equated atheists to communism/Stalin. Also, what data am I presenting that is assumption? It isnt. ANY STATISTICAL WEBSITE shows this. Its not trivial. Just google it and you will get dozens of respectable sources. Everything Ive said is basic, non-trivial fact or statistical report. You simply have nothing to say and thus the lack of any form of response. Thats fine though, I didn't expect much out of you.
@Bodhitharta Then we can do that too, the most educated and low crime countries are the worlds most secular or atheist/non- religious countries. So the stats mimic in US states and sovereign states as well.
Its ironic to tell me to do research when I present fact and you present false data on reality and our history. (continued)
@Bodhitharta And it does not matter if you are Christian, Jew or Muslim. In this video you talked about morality from the bible, so Im attacking you on that. And lastly, if you cannot see any argument that Im making, then you simply should not be posting videos on youtube and expect to make cogent defenses on what you say. Instead disable comments and just spew the shit you want to spew so people can ignore you.
@ImBackAJ20101 Yes, morality from the bible, so if you argue about Christians or others commiting more crimes it would still stand that the morality is valid and those who violate the moral code are criminals, so what is your actual argument?
@Bodhitharta My entire argument is that religion brings more crime, not less. It brings less education (in terms of IQ) not more. And its not assumption. The beauty in data is right there. Look up the past years polls, research and statistical analysis of education and crime in the USA and world-wide. There is a distinct and repeating pattern of secular or non-theist/atheist countries/states having less crime and more education. What morality do religious people have with these types of results?
@ImBackAJ20101 Then your argument is inappropriate because you are simply highlighting that crime is the essense of not following ones religion and your argument is against hypocrisy not morality or rule of law. To argue against religion you would have to argue against the tenants of such and not the lack of following the tenants, understand?
@Bodhitharta Im highlighting that it is illogical to argue that religion is needed for morality when the most religious populations are the most criminal.
@Bodhitharta Second, youre argument and more generally, religious peoples argument that Hitler/Stalin/Mao were atheist is false at best as I have given only a small amount of historical fact that shows otherwise. I cannot say that Stalin and Mao were Christian (incase of Mao it would be outright false), but Hitler was indeed a catholic and the Nazis army was a Christian army. Yet I would not say todays Christians are Nazis or equate to Nazis. (I know better) But where is morality from the bible
@Bodhitharta A few more things to note: Hitler was in fact a creationist using his quotes. He believed he was doing gods work by killing the Jews. (all his quotes). Mao abolished all religions to institute a cult/following of his own where he would be presented more of the god (just like the current state in North Korea). Stalin, although he hated religion, was in fact Christian in many ways. Told his family that Christ existed and had mixed beliefs between chrisitanity and non-theism(continued)
@Bodhitharta What Im saying is that there is a significant amount of people who do not believe in god but do not call themselves atheist. Heard of Nontheism?
@Bodhitharta which if anything resembles religion, not Atheism. You have to do better than the Stalin/Hitler fallacy here, or else all you look like is another pathetic theist. And yes, I am being aggressive because you are no different than the hundreds of other Christians Ive argued with on YT. You are very enlightened in your ignorance, good for you :)
@ImBackAJ20101 You haven't really presented an argument so we are not arguing quite yet, who siad I was even a Christian? Do your research first and then present a coherent argument.
@ImBackAJ20101 That is one of the most ignorant statements ever said. Remember the neutral non religious states that assisted Hitler in genocide? It was the religious that came and crushed hitlers army, you are surely ungrateful
@Bodhitharta Again, you clearly do not know much about history. If you want to equate all atheists to Stalin or Mao because you think those regimes where atheist (they weren't, and Im not making a blanket statement) Then I see no problem using your false logic against you and equate all Christians to Nazis because Hitler embraced and supported Christianity. Sounds stupid right? Right.
You need to do some more research on Stalin and Mao (and I mean more than just read a wikipedia page).
If you think morality comes from absolute standards, what sources are you drawing from to establish these absolute standards? The Bible simply cannot comprehensively lay out all that is moral or immoral. Not to mention it is laden with moral atrocities. If you choose to ignore or downplay these atrocities, you are using your own personal moral compass in the process to determine what you think is right and wrong, which contradicts the whole concept of absolute morality.
If you think morality comes from absolute standards, what sources are you drawing from to establish these absolute standards? The Bible does not comprehensively describe everything that is moral or immoral. Not to mention it is also laden with moral atrocities. And if you choose to ignore or downplay these atrocities, you are using your own personal moral compass in the process to decide what you think is right and wrong, which contradicts the whole concept of absolute morality.
@love153040game The Bible and other sources such as the Glorious Quran layout the standards of Morality and also demonstrates or explains what is immoral and yes this is absolute
@Bodhitharta It's fine that you look to the Bible and Quran for guidance. Some lessons in them transcend time and are useful and applicable today. However, I would hope that you do not endorse the entirety of these books. If indeed you do not, then the parts you deem "right" and "wrong" are somewhat arbitrary. It is not at all clear what the absolute morality is!
@Linkacious1 You have never learned morals they were passed down and if you are an atheist you can only have arbitrary morals, you do whatever "feels" right
@Bodhitharta Usually you learn from a teacher, ie parents. They taught me the basis of my morals, the rest you gain from society and life in general. Morals today are different from the time the bible was written, which is a good thing. The god of the bible is the same god that advocated slavery and stoning children as just two examples. I wouldn't say his morals were moral at all. Especially against homosexuality. That laughs in the face or morality and borders on intolerance!
@Linkacious1 As I said the farther you go away fro absolute morality the less likely you are to know what it looks like. Today Homosexuality is "cool", selling serious narcotics is also "cool" even general violence is "Cool" You speak of intolerance but tell me how much will you eventually tolerate?
@Linkacious1 I just want you to understand how you think, think about it people are very upset about the Muslim women covering themselves they call it abusive but pornography is loved and admired and it's everywhere to one degree or another.Just stop for a moment and think about what seems okay to you. We love privacy so much because we are so corrupt
@Bodhitharta Do you follow every rule in the bible or do you pick and choose? I can only assume you pick and choose, which says very little for the infallible word of your god. You should be beating your wife or killing her if she commits adultery. If your kids are unruly, they should also be stoned. This is old and new testament scripture. What morals does this show? There is an evolutionary explanation for altruism and our understanding of it progresses all the time.
So Half of Europe and over 80% of Swedens are imoral ? I was in Stocholm this summer and everybody was selfish Fun loving, pleasure seeking, animal fucking,homosexual communists. Oh, and they all have this strange two horns on a forehead....and they drink blood instead beer.
this is the most irrational rant ever. morals dont come from the bible or god, they were around alot longer than the ten commandments. morals come from humanism.
You really don't understand what I am saying. I am simply saying that without God a person's morals are arbitrary and arbitrary morals are immoral because they have no absolute standard
@Bodhitharta so, your saying a secular society has no morals or those morals are immoral? even though scandanavian countries have the lowest murder and crime rates in the entire world? morals are not arbitrary btw because there is a choice.
An overwhelming majority had in fact been baptized, and many had been confirmed or married in church.
Though they denied most of the traditional teachings of Christianity, they called themselves Christians, and most were content to remain in the Danish National Church or the Church of Sweden, the traditional national branches of Lutheranism
@Bodhitharta no my friend, you dont have any idea. although approx 85% of Finn's, for example, sign up for Lutheran based church, it need not imply that a deep belief in the tenets of Martin Luther. they sign up usually to to obtain clergy for weddings and funerals. most scandinavian's are neither attached to or opposed to religion.
but besides that, you are saying that a secular society is incapable of reaching moral purity without "god", correct?
@aguteempasil so as I said it is not that they are nonreligious it is simply they are not fanatics and that's great! A secular society cannot reach moral purity because a secular society has arbitrary morals. If you think it through you will agree with me. For instance is homosexuality moral or consentual incest? Without me judging at all wouldn't this be morality whether some think it's good or bad? My only point was Morals come from set standards and not arbitrary ones.
If you use the Bible as a your guide to morality, then you are the morally bankrupt.
I choose to not harm others because it is simply wrong.
The bible condones slavery, child abuse, oppressing women. God commands sacrifice, genocide and murder.
But if you accept JC as your lord and savior, you are forgiven of all sins...except for one. Apostasy. You burn for denouncing him as the one true god.
Christianity is morally bankrupt because the Bible is.
Bodhitharta, why is fornication with animals wrong? If you answer that it is wrong because God says so, then that is in fact NOT an argument for proving said act wrong. If you give a valid, logical reason, then THAT is why it is wrong. Just because the Bible says that an act is immoral does not make it so. That is why saying that we can't have morality without God is so self-defeating, because if something is wrong, it is wrong for an actual REASON. Is it right for a reason or because I say so?
You cannot give a "reason" not to have sex with animals other than it has been deemed wrong to do. You sound very unintelligent. animals do not mind for the most part having sex with humans and even if they did if it wasn't wrong it wouldn't matter or not, you lack sense
Things that are considered to be moral or not have allways fluctuated, both among Christians and non-Christians through history. This generation has different morals then the next and so on. So even Christians don't have a fixed set of morals even though they have their Bible-manual. Morality is, was and allways will be decided by society, and not a religious book. [at least for the most part]
Conclusion: Society makes up what is morally correct or not, not "God" or the bible.
There are no distinctions between morality, you have one morality and that is the morality the society applies using borders that are not to be crossed. This was for the past 2000 years the morality, mostly, the Bible dictated. Morality is flexible and even within this period of Biblical morality at certain points witch hunting was ok, then it was not, slavery was ok, then it was not etc. So morality has ALLWAYS fluctuated and has NEVER been constant.
Once again you are a student, witch "hunting" was never okay, forced "slavery" was never okay but you simply guess all these things because you are unlearned.
Ok you want to discuss matters of FACT now? You're black but you sure don't THINK black saying slavery was never "ok". SURE it was ok up to the mid 19th century in south-america WTH are you talking about. EVEN THE BIBLE says slavery is ok. You want to change the defenition of a "FACT" just to make your claim true now? I'm a student and you're a "professor" so SHAME ON YOU for being a punching bag on the topic of evolution.
You misunderstand, servitude had a purpose but what I said was that slavery as practised by those who were oppressive was never okay. In history a person only became a slave by 2 ways their land was conquered violently and instead of killing everyone they were made servants until they became peart of the population or they people were poor and offered themselves for slavery, treatment of the poor is the judgment of their masters and that Judgement is judged by God Almighty, understand?
Yeah, I understand it's a nice description for slavery. Though slaves in the Americas were NOT poor nor did they lose their land, they were kidnapped. This concept of slavery WAS ok in your "Christian" nation up to the mid 19th century. This is a fact, it's not a point of discussion, that is A FACT. I thought it couldn't get any worse but then you bring up that discussion which isn't even a discussion to begin with. So morality IS flexible, which was the topic.
"Biblical morality is a constant in all religions based upon God Almighty"
The moral shift between the Old and New testament is apparent enough to render your statement ridiculously false. Furthermore, the splintering of sects of "All Mighty God" from the original orthodox Roman Catholic Church into all the various Protestant denominations and their re-worked moral standards is yet another. You go as far as to call Catholics "Atheist" in your rejection .
There is no shift from the OT to the NT and even Catholics and Protestants were not divided on basic morality, Protestants objected indulgences of the Catholic Church but I guess reading is a bit much for you, I love you anyway. Your a lovely woman.
OT on punishing a problem child: Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Compared to Jesus in the NT: "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone"
The lex talionis is found in three passages in the Old Testament (Ex. 21:23, 24; Lev. 24:19, 20; and Deut. 19:21) prescirbing "eye for eye" opposed to the NT Jesus who tells us to "turn the other cheek" I could go forever...
Ah! I see you misunderstand the scriptures most likely because you have never read them. In the OT it states that you should not exceed what has been meted out to you so NO MORE THAN an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth and then it tells you but it is even better to forgive.
Hosea 6:(King James Version) 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
You see, you did not know what the OT teaches nor do you understand the NT.
i understand it perfectly, & the OT is pretty gruesome. As a whole it is also poorly written & ambiguous allowing it to support just about any conclusion. This is a good reason reject it as a source of morality. Instead, one must approach with with thier own values in order to interpret. When all is said and done: Its a bronze aged book written by superstitious middle eastern goat herders. thou shalt give life for life foot for foot Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. God
So when someone steals from you , you don't want what they took returned? Are you being a Hypocrite? If someone killed your loved ones would you not want them to be killed? And, if you did not demand justice but instead chose to forgive them as an atheist why would you choose forgiveness?
No I would probably not want them killed because I'm not the person who could judge about taking a life or not. I'm an atheist and I can forgive people because it gives me satisfaction and when I make mistakes I would like to get a second chance too. This is why people forgive other people, because everybody deserves a second chance, not because a book says I should forgive. There are alot fo atheists who "forgive" other people for the wrong they do, and the reason is not the bible.
Then you are simply silly if there is no after life and no God then you would be stupid to forgive anyone for interfering with your One and Only life and that second chance could possible cause the death and injury of others. Taking God out of the equation your wisdom is foolishness.
"If someone killed your loved ones would you not want them to be killed? " There is a non mystical, non biblical way to answer this moral conundrum in a purely logical rational way. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind(Ghandi).
Family feuds in the south got out of hand not understanding this, until families fought without even remembering the original reason. Huck Fin can teach that better than the bible...(Mark Twain) In vengance dig a grave for 2-- chin. proverb. So who is silly?
Are you saying you need someone or something to tell you right from wrong? Wouldn't that mean you really don't have free will, because you will forever need to be told what to do. Are you truly saying Intelligence (the ability to reason, understand, and deduce solutions) was left out of God's equation?
Sure they spit initially into 2 over indulgences or more generally repentance and the churches corruption. Since then even more splinters have broken off & all of them believe themselves to be the exclusive holders of truth. Jehovah witnesses for example think all non JW are apostates outside "truth" and therefore can only be accidentally moral as true morality entails obedience 2 god & the 1 truth in good faith. Read MLs 4th thesis and the necessity of SELF HATE... a real christian value!
Self Hate is not taught in the Bible but perhaps one could say denying ones own selfishness to overide sinful impulses that harm others. Believers can be in any "religion" for true religion is the act of Doing what is Merciful and Compassionate and standing against oppression as oppression is worse than slaughter
Bofhi: "there is no incentive to be moral apart from believing in and wanting to please God."
Lol... so if we could convince Bodhi and his ilk that god wasn't real they'd be out raping children. He sees no incentive or inherent worth in abstaining from the act ITSELF. Thats scary shit.
Most of us aren't that dense or sociopathic. You just revealed yourself for the vile turd you are.
Actually people who don't believe are already raping children including priests which would have to be Atheists. So, yes People would be doing pretty much what they do now and yes If I didn't believe I would probably do whatever I thought was okay to do. Why wouldn't I want to? Don't you Covet, wouldn't you have sex with someones spouse if you were attracted to them?
I have never raped anyone and I'm an atheist and no I don't feelt he need to have sex with someone elses spouse.
I don't do these because personally I don't feel ok doing that. If you look at the bigger picture these are acts that hurt the society, and that's why they are not ok to do and that's the bottom reason why most people don't rape, though they all give the explanation they think it's "wrong". You see this kind of behaviour in the animal kingdom aswell.
You need to look up the word "Atheist" as you obviously don't understand its meaning. Priest are as theistic as it gets. You use the term to paint anyone u disagree with synonymously w/ "infidel" or "apostate". All Athiest are infidel apostates, not all infidel apostates are Atheist, you turd.
"I would probably do whatever I thought was okay to do."
Well then you are a retard with a broken moral compass and Im glad you have a prepackaged version of morality to assist your feeble mind.
These "morals" are just based off of the narrow mindedness of a cryptic book written ages ago in order to keep their people in line. Morals should be based off of what is acceptable at the time. The world is changing and more and more people are gaining personal rights and i don't think you Christians are ready for it.
American Slavery was not the same as servitude by most cultures. Long ago most people volunteered to be slaves to benefit their families. It was seen as discraceful to treat your slaves unkind and many serves were treated like close family remembers.
I'm not questioning the bible's definition of a slave. Read it again. I am merely stating that we don't NEED a moral system written in stone. We as human beings are born with a moral incentive and thus can create a moral code on our own. No divine intervention required.
there is no incentive to be moral apart from believing in and wanting to please God. Immorality is natural as it is easier to steal from the weak than to earn, Easier to cheat on your spouse than to communicate effectively, easier not to share wealth than to give charity, easier to define your sexuality based on what feels good than what the intent of different sexes. Man without God is immoral.
Maybe some people don't think like you. I know I don't. Through all of my godlessness (and aprox. 10% of Americans) I'm not stealing from grandmas or running people down on the streets with my car. I MADE my own morals. I don't NEED to be tricked into fearing that some omniscient totalitarian "god" will send me to hell for it. This fear tactic used by Christians really pisses me off because it reminds me more and more of Nazi Germany. I'm a good person. I never needed god for that.
I can't tell you who God is sending to hell or if you are a good or bad person I am just telling you that the belief in God entails understanding that structure is the byproduct of an author and it is best to understand a system by listening to the one who designed it, God is real!
Bodhi is a defective Human being with a warped mind and an alternate reality. He is beyond rational discussion and any help. he cannot grasp the concepts of a moral sentiment and general good will. He admittedly needs fairy tales and ever-present threats to keep him from murder, theft and rape. We should be thankful that such a vile piece of shit has a mental cage in the form of Christianity.
'it is easier to steal from the weak than to earn"
Morality is also natural as it is easier to not have to worry about everyone stealing FROM you. You forget the other part of the equation that any rational mind would take into account. All societies have a moral sense and most lack YOUR god. Those of us who are not handicapped like you also have moral sentiments and emotional sympathy that aligns our actions to justice and morality. You are like an eternal child most of us have grown up.
You (re)define morality as rules given by a higher power. By that definition of course anyone that does not believe in that higher power does not see any reason to abide by those rules and are likely to violate some of them so they can't be moral.
But by this definition you would be immoral to anyone who beliefs in another higher power who has given a different set of rules to live by to it's followers.
ok your so full of shit lol, you assume your "version" is the best, how do you know its not a perversion of the real deal? after all theres 10000s of different bibles out there
also history shows morality came from mankind (study anciant rome)
owyeah and about the recipy: how do you know its a perversion? couldnt it be the other person is a better cook then you are? or a trained proffesional ...
Atheist's morals are the same as society's morals. It's a sociological thing, not religious. I know I can't go out and kill a person, and I also know that it is Immoral to do so. I know it is immoral, not because it is "in our hearts", but because society has taught us to value human life. Our society has laws forbidding the murder of others, thus making it enforced by formal punishment. Abiding by these norms are a key to keeping society. Religion only brings out wars and controversy.
If you get your morality from the bible, presumably you think that slavery is acceptable because Leviticus 25:44,45 states that "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves." and "You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country..." If you don't believe Leviticus to be true then by your logic you are perverting the bible.
The slaves would sell themselves, hence the term BUY instead of enslave by force such as in american slavery. Sometimes people would also agree to be a servant for a time in order to marry a daughter of someone or for their family to reap benefits.
hm you didnt really answer the qeustion there, we still dont know whether you think its moral or not, the answer offcourse is no, i hope you can share this view?
Ok, so by your line of logic: although humans are designed to see and hear, people that are deaf and blind are a perversion because they are different from the original? That's nice.
They are not deaf or blind by choice and yet they clearly incite feelings of gratefulness for those of us who are not deaf or blind and yet those who do not believe in God are far more blind and deaf. Those who are blind or deaf but Love God can see and hear much better if you only knew. The Almighty is Wise, Perfect in planning and Operation.
Exodus 31:15: Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Once again this was related to the Israelites as Jesus pointed out: The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. The Almighty made a severe punishment for those whom he had saved from slavery and yet disregarded His instruction because it was a sign of His existence even until this day. The Jews keep the Sabbath as a sign, understand?
30 'But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.'"
I'm glad that you agree with me on the fact that we should get our morals from the bible, but I have one question. I know Leviticus says that we should stone anyone who works on the sabbath, and i recently noticed that my neighbor works on the sabbath. Am I morally obliged to kill my neighbor, or is there some sort of authority figure who I can notify who will kill them? Thanks in advance for your response.
Man was not made for the sabbath, the sabbath was made for man and you will not find it written in the Bible that it is suitable for you to kill your neighbor because of him working on the sabbath
This is interesting. I have to disagree though. I do not believe it is right to have sex with an animal, I know this, yet I have no god. I know the diffrence between right and wrong, I am not a pleasure seeker. If something feels right it still may be wrong, true. This happens to everyone, ok so you as a Christian might do something wrong without knowing, and I as an atheist may do the same, or a Hindu or a Bhuddist or a Jew may do this to. Anyone can make mistakes, we are also human.
Atheists do not have any moral authority they can have sex with an animal or harm anyone or anything they can get away with because who is going to judge them? (God?)
So you need constant threat of punishment and promise of reward to restrain actions that would harm others?
Personally, I do not do any of these things because I would feel terrible, not because I am afraid of punishment. Even if I knew 100% I would never be punished, I would not do them, because I can empathize with the pain I am inflicting on another life form.
Apparently you must lack this ability empathize and must be forced to obey by fear of punishment promise of reward.
Why would you feel terrible, you don't have anyone to answer to, right? You are your own judge, right? If you did want to have sex with animals it would be your own choice and your business alone, right? I believe in God and I am answer to God alone.
Because I can understand from pain I have experienced that it would be causing another organism pain (because unwanted sex is a painful experience) and as a result I would choose not to partake in such an act.
Apparently you lack the ability to empathize with other creatures and need constant threat of punishment to prevent from causing harm to others. Because without god, you would be having sex with animals, correct?
This seems to be the only conclusion based on your premises.
Without God I have no idea what I would think is acceptable. You don't have a problem with homosexuality do you? so what about consentual sex with an animal in heat? What about having sex with your neighbors wife? What about bearing false witness to get someone in trouble so you can steal their possessions? You can do any of these things and there is no reason for you not to do them because you don't believe in any judge other than your own feelings, right?
What I am saying is morality is a byproduct of authority, if there is no authority then a persons morality is arbitrary i.e. meaningless as a criterion.
You think that because you obey that authority no matter what it says. But not killing because if you do, you're going to hell, doesn't make you a good person. You are not talking about morality here, you are talking about fear of punishment.
If you evite doing things just because you fear punishment you're the same asshole, just a coward one. Consider a rapist wanting to fuck a 10 year old child. Oh, he's a good person because he evites doing it not to be punished. What a nice guy.
Resisting evil is the same as doing good. Any thought can pop into any persons head but to have discipline, thought and control and do what is right is good indeed!
If I were saving a life of someone innocent I would lie and it would not be a sin. A sin is a transgression against God. Lying to someone who is not acting to the benefit of Godliness is merely misdirection.
The commandments are pretty clear. Thou shalt not bear false witness. It says nowhere that this is conditional. Calling a lie misdirection if it saves life is something you believe in that is not derived from religion. What if you were lying to save the life of a gay sex fiend or a blasphemer? Would that constitute a sin since you would be aiding god's enemies?
Bearing false witness is telling a lie about someone in order for them to be punished that is a big difference and no one should ever bear false witness for any reason.
Atheists also dont believe in objective morality like christians do, when we face a situation we draw upon our own personal experience and knowledge as well as our morals to determine how to react. Would you lie to save a life if faced with that choice? According to the bible that is still a sin.
Sex with animals is immoral and also ILLEGAL. I have no desire to do that, but then again I'm not from the south. Morals are derived from a variety of sources, mostly living in a society with other humans and learning what is and is not acceptable. If atheists have no reason to restrain themselves then why do nonbelievers make up 12% of the american population but one-tenth of one percent of the american prison population?
How can you say that sex with animals are immoral when an atheist believes that humans are part of the animal kingdom? Also criminality has nothing to do with morality, There is gay marriage allowed now in a few states that doesn't change its morality but it does alter its criminality, Marijuana is also legal in some places but there are many people arrested for its use in others. Morality is not always connected to criminality. Polygamy is illegal and there is no doubt that it is moral.
I believe an act is immoral if it harms others or the one who commits the act. That isn't the full extent of my morality, but it is the basis of it. Sex with an animal isn't consensual which means that it is abuse, much like child abuse. That's why it is immoral. The law, much like religion, isn't perfect because it is created and implemented by man, but the law does provide basic framework for morality and serves to protect individuals' rights.
So you're saying that the only thing that keeps you from having sex with animals, killing, raping, and marrying a man is the fear of eternal soul torture? To me that's a depressing view of humanity. Everyone has morals, ours are just derived from a different source than yours. Try to learn a little more about atheism before making another middle school level argument that has no merit.
this guy is an idiot...look at all the christian and muslim rapists, murderers and criminals in america's prisons...they're religious, but behind bars.
I wonder how many these "True" believers are. Also how can you judge someone, that he/she is not a believer. Its a relationship with god and that person, not yours.
No, you cannot say that because being an atheist has no bearing on morality at all nor is it a "moral" philosophy it is simply a lack of belief in God which includes the lack of belief in any absolute moral authority.
They have abandoned their religion by their acts although some may realize this and repent but an atheist has nothing to repent from and therefore is doomed to Hell!
This is absolutely rubbish. I know many atheists who all have a "moral code" and live in a set way.
Your failure here is assuming that atheists can't define good and evil, which for you is what morality revolves around. Good and evil don't exist, and morality doesn't necessarily need to revolve around those two concepts.
There are numerous ways that one can define a situation, action or behaviour as "right and wrong", and none of those ways relate to the concepts of 'good and evil'.
You shouldn't make videos. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Morality is genetically hardwired in the human mind. Also homosexuality is largely a result of a genetic predisposition. And if the only thing stopping you from raping animals is the bible, you are fucked up. Seek help. And I could go into some of the barbaric lessons of the bible and that there is a far greater percentage of the Christian population in prison than that of atheists but that is all well known.
Morality cannot be hardwired, if it was everyone would be moral in the same way. There are no practicing Christians that practice evil so you are incorrect. Titles mean nothing you are what you do.
Actually, they wouldn't be the same. That is where genetic diversity comes into play. But some aspects of morality are nearly universal such as the aversions to murder, incest, and thievery. But diversity in genetics and in thought make exceptions of all things.
And the idea that Christians who do evil things are not really Christians is crap. If they believe in Christianity, they are Christian. And the fact that they still do evil despite that shows the uselessness of that belief system.
religion doesn't give us morals it teaches a set of ideas (some being incredibaly insane) that if you didn't follow the demanded punishment is usually death and damnation (Meaning the people should kill the sinner, usually via stoning, and the God(s) of that faith should damn them). That being the case how can you call religious practice or ideals moral? At least athists can think for themselves and decide wots right and wots wrong, that is true morality! Being able to say wot is right n wrong.
Thats not true at all! Research the concept of universal morality and cultural relativism. We don't get our moral from a book but rather our genetic makeup and the people around us. Over 200 years ago Christians would have me burned at the stake because of there interpretation of the bible, the same on you read i might add. As we evolve as a people so does the interpretation of the bible. They would probably burn you for how incredibly liberal you are in comparison to them. Respond back...
what differences animal sex with same sex sex?....... dude homosexual couples love each other, and taking advantage of someones or somethings stupidity and innocence to rape it its just wrong.... by the way not all atheist think homosexuality its ok.... prostitution its not ok like the bible sez
Sex with animals? Are you kidding? Atheists don't suggest any such disgusting things. We are also not "pleasure seekers," we just know that things that feel good are not naturally "evil" as religion would have us believe.
To think you have a 'higher' morality because you believe in an afterlife is just absurd. Human kind, as social animals, will always maintain morals to control people. This is a biological and cultural drive, no gods required.
An atheist could not say what is good or bad because they have no moral authority, so if they wanted to have sex with an animal to them it would not be wrong because they have no set morality, they can do whatever they "feel" like doing.
Your assumption is ridiculous, I'll just be that honest with you.
Being an atheist, not having a godly father figure looking over our shoulder, does not mean we will become deviants. Our society and culture is important to us, and we wouldn't want to engage in such taboo activities, or we will be expelled from our societies for it.
Morality is not a sub-form of religion. In fact, atheists/non-religious people have lower divorce, incarceration, and abortion rates than religious people.
Atheists don't believe in being called a "deviant" or anything being called "taboo" wouldn't you call homosexuality, normal? Homosexuality and Beastiality are both immoral for those who believe in morality.
I'd really love to know how you 'know' what atheists supposidely believe, being religious yourself. You don't know, you are making ASSUMPTIONS.
Yes, atheists like to fit into their culture/society just as well as anyone else, and not do extremely taboo things. Homosexuals don't believe their conduct is deviancy from the norm since its documented that most all mammals have homosexual encounters. Beastiality however, is just disgusting, any GOOD person will tell you that, all morals aside.
dude homosexual couples fuck each other cuz they luv each other, zoophiles just take advantage of an animal's stupidity to rape it....and ur not supposed to do to others what you don't want for urself
So can you! just interpret the scriptures different. You can justify killing me and deadlychinchilla just because we oppose your religious views. I'm not saying you would, I'm just saying anyone can. Read my comment above.
religious folk say that if ur an atheist u hav no morals & it doesnt matter 2 u if some1 walked in2 a room & shot every1. in fact they would find this even more despicable than a christian because christians view this life as just a stepping stone 2 a magical heaven 4 all eternity. atheists r realists bcuz they accept just how precious this 1 life is and dont squander it
Atheists make up only 0.2% of the prison population in the US.
declanp1 9 months ago
So you don't have sex with animals, and the reason you don't because your god supposedly doesn't want that... and you say that with a straight face... *sigh*
jerrypz 11 months ago
@jerrypz do you have sex with animals and if not why not?
Bodhitharta 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Bodhitharta No i don't have sex animals. The reason I only have sex with those who I am attracted to, which happens to be human females.
Do you have sex with animals. If not why not? More importantly, how is that reason linked to Christianity?
jerrypz 11 months ago
Look at the comparison of states who are more atheist to those who are more religious. There is a constant pattern of more crime and lower IQ in the more religious states. Religion is ignorance.
The greatest atrocities in our history where committed behind religion or religious-like cults/followings.
It is a statistical fact: The more secular or non-religious a state or country, the less crime and higher education there is. Happiness is also higher. You are no better than any other idiot theist
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 Actually you should realize that Communism is an Atheist state and has killed and oppressed more humans than any other system in the history of the world. Think Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta That is the oldest and most false argument used against atheists (oldest in modern arguments). Surprised you left-out Hitler, he was fascist, but you might as well. Hitler was a Roman Catholic and talked about religion a lot. So I guess Christians are Nazis? Seems like a stupid equation but you just did that to Atheists. BTW, look at the dictators you just mentioned, all of which were NOT atheist and never called themselves as such, and their ruling was more of a cult-like control
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 The argument is very real and yes they did identify themselves as Atheist and suppressed religion and in most cases outlawed it. If you knew history you would have an argument but you do not.
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta Did you even read anything about history? The Pope and Hitler signed a treaty when he came into power. Christian teaching was mandatory IN ALL German schools. they celebrated the popes birthday every year. On every germ officers belt buckle it said in German: "God is on our side" This is all fact. You are completely oblivious to history. And you misunderstood what I meant by states. I meant states in the USA. But if you want to talk about countries (continued)
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 I didn't mention hitler you did, just like you assumed I was christian
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta You mentioned Stalin and communism being atheist. (and Mao). You then later equated atheists to communism/Stalin. Also, what data am I presenting that is assumption? It isnt. ANY STATISTICAL WEBSITE shows this. Its not trivial. Just google it and you will get dozens of respectable sources. Everything Ive said is basic, non-trivial fact or statistical report. You simply have nothing to say and thus the lack of any form of response. Thats fine though, I didn't expect much out of you.
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta Then we can do that too, the most educated and low crime countries are the worlds most secular or atheist/non- religious countries. So the stats mimic in US states and sovereign states as well.
Its ironic to tell me to do research when I present fact and you present false data on reality and our history. (continued)
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 False again, plus you gave no data, only assumptions
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta And it does not matter if you are Christian, Jew or Muslim. In this video you talked about morality from the bible, so Im attacking you on that. And lastly, if you cannot see any argument that Im making, then you simply should not be posting videos on youtube and expect to make cogent defenses on what you say. Instead disable comments and just spew the shit you want to spew so people can ignore you.
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 Yes, morality from the bible, so if you argue about Christians or others commiting more crimes it would still stand that the morality is valid and those who violate the moral code are criminals, so what is your actual argument?
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta My entire argument is that religion brings more crime, not less. It brings less education (in terms of IQ) not more. And its not assumption. The beauty in data is right there. Look up the past years polls, research and statistical analysis of education and crime in the USA and world-wide. There is a distinct and repeating pattern of secular or non-theist/atheist countries/states having less crime and more education. What morality do religious people have with these types of results?
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 Then your argument is inappropriate because you are simply highlighting that crime is the essense of not following ones religion and your argument is against hypocrisy not morality or rule of law. To argue against religion you would have to argue against the tenants of such and not the lack of following the tenants, understand?
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta Im highlighting that it is illogical to argue that religion is needed for morality when the most religious populations are the most criminal.
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta Second, youre argument and more generally, religious peoples argument that Hitler/Stalin/Mao were atheist is false at best as I have given only a small amount of historical fact that shows otherwise. I cannot say that Stalin and Mao were Christian (incase of Mao it would be outright false), but Hitler was indeed a catholic and the Nazis army was a Christian army. Yet I would not say todays Christians are Nazis or equate to Nazis. (I know better) But where is morality from the bible
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta When so much data and recent historical events show otherwise?
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta A few more things to note: Hitler was in fact a creationist using his quotes. He believed he was doing gods work by killing the Jews. (all his quotes). Mao abolished all religions to institute a cult/following of his own where he would be presented more of the god (just like the current state in North Korea). Stalin, although he hated religion, was in fact Christian in many ways. Told his family that Christ existed and had mixed beliefs between chrisitanity and non-theism(continued)
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 You still don't have a valid argument, What are you arguing against Christianity or Morality?
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta So to say any of these dictators were Atheist is disingenuous and ignorant.
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 No, it is to actually say that they didn't believe in God because that is what they said just like you
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta Someone not believing in god does not mean they are Atheist. its not that easy to label someone an Atheist.
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 A=No Theos=god Yes it is really easy because that is what it means
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta What Im saying is that there is a significant amount of people who do not believe in god but do not call themselves atheist. Heard of Nontheism?
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta which if anything resembles religion, not Atheism. You have to do better than the Stalin/Hitler fallacy here, or else all you look like is another pathetic theist. And yes, I am being aggressive because you are no different than the hundreds of other Christians Ive argued with on YT. You are very enlightened in your ignorance, good for you :)
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 You haven't really presented an argument so we are not arguing quite yet, who siad I was even a Christian? Do your research first and then present a coherent argument.
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta PS. You ignored my original comment completely. And I dont blame you, you have no argument.
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 Actually I didn't
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@ImBackAJ20101 That is one of the most ignorant statements ever said. Remember the neutral non religious states that assisted Hitler in genocide? It was the religious that came and crushed hitlers army, you are surely ungrateful
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta Again, you clearly do not know much about history. If you want to equate all atheists to Stalin or Mao because you think those regimes where atheist (they weren't, and Im not making a blanket statement) Then I see no problem using your false logic against you and equate all Christians to Nazis because Hitler embraced and supported Christianity. Sounds stupid right? Right.
You need to do some more research on Stalin and Mao (and I mean more than just read a wikipedia page).
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
Comment removed
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
If you think morality comes from absolute standards, what sources are you drawing from to establish these absolute standards? The Bible simply cannot comprehensively lay out all that is moral or immoral. Not to mention it is laden with moral atrocities. If you choose to ignore or downplay these atrocities, you are using your own personal moral compass in the process to determine what you think is right and wrong, which contradicts the whole concept of absolute morality.
love153040game 1 year ago
@love153040game What moral atrocities?
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
If you think morality comes from absolute standards, what sources are you drawing from to establish these absolute standards? The Bible does not comprehensively describe everything that is moral or immoral. Not to mention it is also laden with moral atrocities. And if you choose to ignore or downplay these atrocities, you are using your own personal moral compass in the process to decide what you think is right and wrong, which contradicts the whole concept of absolute morality.
love153040game 1 year ago
@love153040game The Bible and other sources such as the Glorious Quran layout the standards of Morality and also demonstrates or explains what is immoral and yes this is absolute
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta It's fine that you look to the Bible and Quran for guidance. Some lessons in them transcend time and are useful and applicable today. However, I would hope that you do not endorse the entirety of these books. If indeed you do not, then the parts you deem "right" and "wrong" are somewhat arbitrary. It is not at all clear what the absolute morality is!
love153040game 1 year ago
@love153040game Actually it does describe everything that is moral or immoral. If you read about Atrocities in what way are they moral or immoral?
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
I think I'd rather be an atheist and follow my learned morals, than go by the 'morals' described in the bible!
Linkacious1 1 year ago
@Linkacious1 You have never learned morals they were passed down and if you are an atheist you can only have arbitrary morals, you do whatever "feels" right
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta Usually you learn from a teacher, ie parents. They taught me the basis of my morals, the rest you gain from society and life in general. Morals today are different from the time the bible was written, which is a good thing. The god of the bible is the same god that advocated slavery and stoning children as just two examples. I wouldn't say his morals were moral at all. Especially against homosexuality. That laughs in the face or morality and borders on intolerance!
Linkacious1 1 year ago
@Linkacious1 As I said the farther you go away fro absolute morality the less likely you are to know what it looks like. Today Homosexuality is "cool", selling serious narcotics is also "cool" even general violence is "Cool" You speak of intolerance but tell me how much will you eventually tolerate?
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Linkacious1 I just want you to understand how you think, think about it people are very upset about the Muslim women covering themselves they call it abusive but pornography is loved and admired and it's everywhere to one degree or another.Just stop for a moment and think about what seems okay to you. We love privacy so much because we are so corrupt
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Linkacious1 What learned morals? You mean arbitrary morals, right?
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta Do you follow every rule in the bible or do you pick and choose? I can only assume you pick and choose, which says very little for the infallible word of your god. You should be beating your wife or killing her if she commits adultery. If your kids are unruly, they should also be stoned. This is old and new testament scripture. What morals does this show? There is an evolutionary explanation for altruism and our understanding of it progresses all the time.
ImBackAJ20101 1 year ago
So Half of Europe and over 80% of Swedens are imoral ? I was in Stocholm this summer and everybody was selfish Fun loving, pleasure seeking, animal fucking,homosexual communists. Oh, and they all have this strange two horns on a forehead....and they drink blood instead beer.
Aleksamson 1 year ago
this is the most irrational rant ever. morals dont come from the bible or god, they were around alot longer than the ten commandments. morals come from humanism.
aguteempasil 1 year ago
@aguteempasil
You really don't understand what I am saying. I am simply saying that without God a person's morals are arbitrary and arbitrary morals are immoral because they have no absolute standard
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta so, your saying a secular society has no morals or those morals are immoral? even though scandanavian countries have the lowest murder and crime rates in the entire world? morals are not arbitrary btw because there is a choice.
aguteempasil 1 year ago
@aguteempasil
You totally have no idea about scandanavia:
An overwhelming majority had in fact been baptized, and many had been confirmed or married in church.
Though they denied most of the traditional teachings of Christianity, they called themselves Christians, and most were content to remain in the Danish National Church or the Church of Sweden, the traditional national branches of Lutheranism
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
@Bodhitharta no my friend, you dont have any idea. although approx 85% of Finn's, for example, sign up for Lutheran based church, it need not imply that a deep belief in the tenets of Martin Luther. they sign up usually to to obtain clergy for weddings and funerals. most scandinavian's are neither attached to or opposed to religion.
but besides that, you are saying that a secular society is incapable of reaching moral purity without "god", correct?
aguteempasil 1 year ago
@aguteempasil so as I said it is not that they are nonreligious it is simply they are not fanatics and that's great! A secular society cannot reach moral purity because a secular society has arbitrary morals. If you think it through you will agree with me. For instance is homosexuality moral or consentual incest? Without me judging at all wouldn't this be morality whether some think it's good or bad? My only point was Morals come from set standards and not arbitrary ones.
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
OH NOES
I just made a perverted cake...
tastes quite good though
looks like there's no problem with being homosexual
but maybe I'm just confused, beccause I'm an atheist and I do think I'm a moral person
Leti460 1 year ago
You basis for your morality is completely circular.
You say it comes from the bible but that's just your opinion.
shlockofgod 1 year ago
If you use the Bible as a your guide to morality, then you are the morally bankrupt.
I choose to not harm others because it is simply wrong.
The bible condones slavery, child abuse, oppressing women. God commands sacrifice, genocide and murder.
But if you accept JC as your lord and savior, you are forgiven of all sins...except for one. Apostasy. You burn for denouncing him as the one true god.
Christianity is morally bankrupt because the Bible is.
OneSoullessAtheist 1 year ago
Bodhitharta, why is fornication with animals wrong? If you answer that it is wrong because God says so, then that is in fact NOT an argument for proving said act wrong. If you give a valid, logical reason, then THAT is why it is wrong. Just because the Bible says that an act is immoral does not make it so. That is why saying that we can't have morality without God is so self-defeating, because if something is wrong, it is wrong for an actual REASON. Is it right for a reason or because I say so?
Humpipe 2 years ago
You cannot give a "reason" not to have sex with animals other than it has been deemed wrong to do. You sound very unintelligent. animals do not mind for the most part having sex with humans and even if they did if it wasn't wrong it wouldn't matter or not, you lack sense
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
@Humpipe
Makes no sense if you were a child and your mother said it is not allowed to call her by her first name it would be wrong to do so, period.
Bodhitharta 1 year ago
Things that are considered to be moral or not have allways fluctuated, both among Christians and non-Christians through history. This generation has different morals then the next and so on. So even Christians don't have a fixed set of morals even though they have their Bible-manual. Morality is, was and allways will be decided by society, and not a religious book. [at least for the most part]
Conclusion: Society makes up what is morally correct or not, not "God" or the bible.
Subher0 2 years ago
No, you are just talking about societal morality not Biblical Morality. Biblical morality is a constant in all religions based upon God Almighty
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
There are no distinctions between morality, you have one morality and that is the morality the society applies using borders that are not to be crossed. This was for the past 2000 years the morality, mostly, the Bible dictated. Morality is flexible and even within this period of Biblical morality at certain points witch hunting was ok, then it was not, slavery was ok, then it was not etc. So morality has ALLWAYS fluctuated and has NEVER been constant.
Subher0 2 years ago
Once again you are a student, witch "hunting" was never okay, forced "slavery" was never okay but you simply guess all these things because you are unlearned.
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
Ok you want to discuss matters of FACT now? You're black but you sure don't THINK black saying slavery was never "ok". SURE it was ok up to the mid 19th century in south-america WTH are you talking about. EVEN THE BIBLE says slavery is ok. You want to change the defenition of a "FACT" just to make your claim true now? I'm a student and you're a "professor" so SHAME ON YOU for being a punching bag on the topic of evolution.
Subher0 2 years ago
You misunderstand, servitude had a purpose but what I said was that slavery as practised by those who were oppressive was never okay. In history a person only became a slave by 2 ways their land was conquered violently and instead of killing everyone they were made servants until they became peart of the population or they people were poor and offered themselves for slavery, treatment of the poor is the judgment of their masters and that Judgement is judged by God Almighty, understand?
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
Yeah, I understand it's a nice description for slavery. Though slaves in the Americas were NOT poor nor did they lose their land, they were kidnapped. This concept of slavery WAS ok in your "Christian" nation up to the mid 19th century. This is a fact, it's not a point of discussion, that is A FACT. I thought it couldn't get any worse but then you bring up that discussion which isn't even a discussion to begin with. So morality IS flexible, which was the topic.
Subher0 2 years ago
What Christian nation? America was never mapped out as a christian nation if it were there would be no freedom of religion.
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
Maybe there was a misunderstanding but was and is America not a Christian dominant nation?
Subher0 2 years ago
"Biblical morality is a constant in all religions based upon God Almighty"
The moral shift between the Old and New testament is apparent enough to render your statement ridiculously false. Furthermore, the splintering of sects of "All Mighty God" from the original orthodox Roman Catholic Church into all the various Protestant denominations and their re-worked moral standards is yet another. You go as far as to call Catholics "Atheist" in your rejection .
Malbrojia 2 years ago
There is no shift from the OT to the NT and even Catholics and Protestants were not divided on basic morality, Protestants objected indulgences of the Catholic Church but I guess reading is a bit much for you, I love you anyway. Your a lovely woman.
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
OT on punishing a problem child: Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Compared to Jesus in the NT: "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone"
The lex talionis is found in three passages in the Old Testament (Ex. 21:23, 24; Lev. 24:19, 20; and Deut. 19:21) prescirbing "eye for eye" opposed to the NT Jesus who tells us to "turn the other cheek" I could go forever...
Malbrojia 2 years ago
Ah! I see you misunderstand the scriptures most likely because you have never read them. In the OT it states that you should not exceed what has been meted out to you so NO MORE THAN an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth and then it tells you but it is even better to forgive.
Hosea 6:(King James Version) 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
You see, you did not know what the OT teaches nor do you understand the NT.
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
i understand it perfectly, & the OT is pretty gruesome. As a whole it is also poorly written & ambiguous allowing it to support just about any conclusion. This is a good reason reject it as a source of morality. Instead, one must approach with with thier own values in order to interpret. When all is said and done: Its a bronze aged book written by superstitious middle eastern goat herders. thou shalt give life for life foot for foot Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. God
Malbrojia 2 years ago
So when someone steals from you , you don't want what they took returned? Are you being a Hypocrite? If someone killed your loved ones would you not want them to be killed? And, if you did not demand justice but instead chose to forgive them as an atheist why would you choose forgiveness?
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
No I would probably not want them killed because I'm not the person who could judge about taking a life or not. I'm an atheist and I can forgive people because it gives me satisfaction and when I make mistakes I would like to get a second chance too. This is why people forgive other people, because everybody deserves a second chance, not because a book says I should forgive. There are alot fo atheists who "forgive" other people for the wrong they do, and the reason is not the bible.
Subher0 2 years ago
Then you are simply silly if there is no after life and no God then you would be stupid to forgive anyone for interfering with your One and Only life and that second chance could possible cause the death and injury of others. Taking God out of the equation your wisdom is foolishness.
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
"If someone killed your loved ones would you not want them to be killed? " There is a non mystical, non biblical way to answer this moral conundrum in a purely logical rational way. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind(Ghandi).
Family feuds in the south got out of hand not understanding this, until families fought without even remembering the original reason. Huck Fin can teach that better than the bible...(Mark Twain) In vengance dig a grave for 2-- chin. proverb. So who is silly?
Malbrojia 2 years ago
Are you saying you need someone or something to tell you right from wrong? Wouldn't that mean you really don't have free will, because you will forever need to be told what to do. Are you truly saying Intelligence (the ability to reason, understand, and deduce solutions) was left out of God's equation?
UrDevilsAdvocate 2 years ago
Sure they spit initially into 2 over indulgences or more generally repentance and the churches corruption. Since then even more splinters have broken off & all of them believe themselves to be the exclusive holders of truth. Jehovah witnesses for example think all non JW are apostates outside "truth" and therefore can only be accidentally moral as true morality entails obedience 2 god & the 1 truth in good faith. Read MLs 4th thesis and the necessity of SELF HATE... a real christian value!
Malbrojia 2 years ago
Self Hate is not taught in the Bible but perhaps one could say denying ones own selfishness to overide sinful impulses that harm others. Believers can be in any "religion" for true religion is the act of Doing what is Merciful and Compassionate and standing against oppression as oppression is worse than slaughter
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
Bofhi: "there is no incentive to be moral apart from believing in and wanting to please God."
Lol... so if we could convince Bodhi and his ilk that god wasn't real they'd be out raping children. He sees no incentive or inherent worth in abstaining from the act ITSELF. Thats scary shit.
Most of us aren't that dense or sociopathic. You just revealed yourself for the vile turd you are.
Malbrojia 2 years ago
Actually people who don't believe are already raping children including priests which would have to be Atheists. So, yes People would be doing pretty much what they do now and yes If I didn't believe I would probably do whatever I thought was okay to do. Why wouldn't I want to? Don't you Covet, wouldn't you have sex with someones spouse if you were attracted to them?
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
I have never raped anyone and I'm an atheist and no I don't feelt he need to have sex with someone elses spouse.
I don't do these because personally I don't feel ok doing that. If you look at the bigger picture these are acts that hurt the society, and that's why they are not ok to do and that's the bottom reason why most people don't rape, though they all give the explanation they think it's "wrong". You see this kind of behaviour in the animal kingdom aswell.
Subher0 2 years ago
You need to look up the word "Atheist" as you obviously don't understand its meaning. Priest are as theistic as it gets. You use the term to paint anyone u disagree with synonymously w/ "infidel" or "apostate". All Athiest are infidel apostates, not all infidel apostates are Atheist, you turd.
"I would probably do whatever I thought was okay to do."
Well then you are a retard with a broken moral compass and Im glad you have a prepackaged version of morality to assist your feeble mind.
Malbrojia 2 years ago
These "morals" are just based off of the narrow mindedness of a cryptic book written ages ago in order to keep their people in line. Morals should be based off of what is acceptable at the time. The world is changing and more and more people are gaining personal rights and i don't think you Christians are ready for it.
Xzazazazia 2 years ago
That makes no sense because what you are essentially saying is any evil thing we all agree on becomes moral.
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
Yes, I am saying that. We can agree that the bible doesn't say slavery is bad, but somehow us mere humans came to that conclusion. How is that?
Xzazazazia 2 years ago
American Slavery was not the same as servitude by most cultures. Long ago most people volunteered to be slaves to benefit their families. It was seen as discraceful to treat your slaves unkind and many serves were treated like close family remembers.
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
I'm not questioning the bible's definition of a slave. Read it again. I am merely stating that we don't NEED a moral system written in stone. We as human beings are born with a moral incentive and thus can create a moral code on our own. No divine intervention required.
Xzazazazia 2 years ago
there is no incentive to be moral apart from believing in and wanting to please God. Immorality is natural as it is easier to steal from the weak than to earn, Easier to cheat on your spouse than to communicate effectively, easier not to share wealth than to give charity, easier to define your sexuality based on what feels good than what the intent of different sexes. Man without God is immoral.
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
Maybe some people don't think like you. I know I don't. Through all of my godlessness (and aprox. 10% of Americans) I'm not stealing from grandmas or running people down on the streets with my car. I MADE my own morals. I don't NEED to be tricked into fearing that some omniscient totalitarian "god" will send me to hell for it. This fear tactic used by Christians really pisses me off because it reminds me more and more of Nazi Germany. I'm a good person. I never needed god for that.
Xzazazazia 2 years ago
I can't tell you who God is sending to hell or if you are a good or bad person I am just telling you that the belief in God entails understanding that structure is the byproduct of an author and it is best to understand a system by listening to the one who designed it, God is real!
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
Bodhi is a defective Human being with a warped mind and an alternate reality. He is beyond rational discussion and any help. he cannot grasp the concepts of a moral sentiment and general good will. He admittedly needs fairy tales and ever-present threats to keep him from murder, theft and rape. We should be thankful that such a vile piece of shit has a mental cage in the form of Christianity.
Malbrojia 2 years ago
'it is easier to steal from the weak than to earn"
Morality is also natural as it is easier to not have to worry about everyone stealing FROM you. You forget the other part of the equation that any rational mind would take into account. All societies have a moral sense and most lack YOUR god. Those of us who are not handicapped like you also have moral sentiments and emotional sympathy that aligns our actions to justice and morality. You are like an eternal child most of us have grown up.
Malbrojia 2 years ago
I knew this was going to be a great video when I saw it only had one star. This is a result of Atheist vote-bots.
Great points. Great vid.
Five stars!
cooIbreeze 2 years ago
Amen to that!
Bodhitharta 2 years ago
You (re)define morality as rules given by a higher power. By that definition of course anyone that does not believe in that higher power does not see any reason to abide by those rules and are likely to violate some of them so they can't be moral.
But by this definition you would be immoral to anyone who beliefs in another higher power who has given a different set of rules to live by to it's followers.
Alfred2101 3 years ago
ok your so full of shit lol, you assume your "version" is the best, how do you know its not a perversion of the real deal? after all theres 10000s of different bibles out there
also history shows morality came from mankind (study anciant rome)
owyeah and about the recipy: how do you know its a perversion? couldnt it be the other person is a better cook then you are? or a trained proffesional ...
an00bish 3 years ago
Atheist's morals are the same as society's morals. It's a sociological thing, not religious. I know I can't go out and kill a person, and I also know that it is Immoral to do so. I know it is immoral, not because it is "in our hearts", but because society has taught us to value human life. Our society has laws forbidding the murder of others, thus making it enforced by formal punishment. Abiding by these norms are a key to keeping society. Religion only brings out wars and controversy.
bigndirk 3 years ago
Morality does not equal laws of society. It is not against the law to have sex with someone elses wife, however it is immoral.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
human law isnt perfect, imagine having to write tons of laws, each being i dont know how many pages long, mistakes are bound to happen
anyway this huy said it comes from human nature and society.
each person from birth has a set of morals, which grow untill he/she dies.
what their morals are depends on what they percieve and when
how else are there difference in morality in cristianity, islam, atheism, america, europe, africa, etc.?
an00bish 3 years ago
So if you are collecting firewood, you should be killed?
That's your morality from the bible.
latuman 3 years ago
If you get your morality from the bible, presumably you think that slavery is acceptable because Leviticus 25:44,45 states that "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves." and "You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country..." If you don't believe Leviticus to be true then by your logic you are perverting the bible.
EvilUmpire 3 years ago
The slaves would sell themselves, hence the term BUY instead of enslave by force such as in american slavery. Sometimes people would also agree to be a servant for a time in order to marry a daughter of someone or for their family to reap benefits.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
hm you didnt really answer the qeustion there, we still dont know whether you think its moral or not, the answer offcourse is no, i hope you can share this view?
an00bish 3 years ago
Ok, so by your line of logic: although humans are designed to see and hear, people that are deaf and blind are a perversion because they are different from the original? That's nice.
RoselTea 3 years ago
They are not deaf or blind by choice and yet they clearly incite feelings of gratefulness for those of us who are not deaf or blind and yet those who do not believe in God are far more blind and deaf. Those who are blind or deaf but Love God can see and hear much better if you only knew. The Almighty is Wise, Perfect in planning and Operation.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
This pertains to the Israelites.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
sorry, not leviticus, i meant Exodus.
Exodus 31:15: Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
brutalsheldon 3 years ago
Once again this was related to the Israelites as Jesus pointed out: The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. The Almighty made a severe punishment for those whom he had saved from slavery and yet disregarded His instruction because it was a sign of His existence even until this day. The Jews keep the Sabbath as a sign, understand?
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
i dont think you understand the fact that at the time only isrealites believed in the biblical god
so the term isrealites was an easy way to indicate his followers
now that its spread however it can reasonably be said that it applies to every of his followers
still havent heard of anyone being smitten (isrealite or otherwise) for working on a sabbath lol
an00bish 3 years ago
30 'But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.'"
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
I'm glad that you agree with me on the fact that we should get our morals from the bible, but I have one question. I know Leviticus says that we should stone anyone who works on the sabbath, and i recently noticed that my neighbor works on the sabbath. Am I morally obliged to kill my neighbor, or is there some sort of authority figure who I can notify who will kill them? Thanks in advance for your response.
brutalsheldon 3 years ago
Man was not made for the sabbath, the sabbath was made for man and you will not find it written in the Bible that it is suitable for you to kill your neighbor because of him working on the sabbath
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
This is interesting. I have to disagree though. I do not believe it is right to have sex with an animal, I know this, yet I have no god. I know the diffrence between right and wrong, I am not a pleasure seeker. If something feels right it still may be wrong, true. This happens to everyone, ok so you as a Christian might do something wrong without knowing, and I as an atheist may do the same, or a Hindu or a Bhuddist or a Jew may do this to. Anyone can make mistakes, we are also human.
Illusenfan35 3 years ago
Your an atheist it can't be "wrong" for you to have sex with an animal.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
In your statement you claim morality is "not to do harm to each other."
You then claim that doesn't make sense because one could have sex with other organims/"animals" morally.
It seems to me having sex with an unwilling un consenting organism would be harming another organism/"animal". Hence, it would not be moral.
Even according to your own premises (i.e. non divine premises) this action has been deemed immoral without the need for intervention to a deity.
Brasky0 3 years ago
Atheists do not have any moral authority they can have sex with an animal or harm anyone or anything they can get away with because who is going to judge them? (God?)
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
So you need constant threat of punishment and promise of reward to restrain actions that would harm others?
Personally, I do not do any of these things because I would feel terrible, not because I am afraid of punishment. Even if I knew 100% I would never be punished, I would not do them, because I can empathize with the pain I am inflicting on another life form.
Apparently you must lack this ability empathize and must be forced to obey by fear of punishment promise of reward.
Brasky0 3 years ago
Why would you feel terrible, you don't have anyone to answer to, right? You are your own judge, right? If you did want to have sex with animals it would be your own choice and your business alone, right? I believe in God and I am answer to God alone.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
Because I can understand from pain I have experienced that it would be causing another organism pain (because unwanted sex is a painful experience) and as a result I would choose not to partake in such an act.
Apparently you lack the ability to empathize with other creatures and need constant threat of punishment to prevent from causing harm to others. Because without god, you would be having sex with animals, correct?
This seems to be the only conclusion based on your premises.
Brasky0 3 years ago
Without God I have no idea what I would think is acceptable. You don't have a problem with homosexuality do you? so what about consentual sex with an animal in heat? What about having sex with your neighbors wife? What about bearing false witness to get someone in trouble so you can steal their possessions? You can do any of these things and there is no reason for you not to do them because you don't believe in any judge other than your own feelings, right?
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
Do you mean that without faith there is no possible ethics?
That's so fucking stupid!
Sandude 3 years ago
What I am saying is morality is a byproduct of authority, if there is no authority then a persons morality is arbitrary i.e. meaningless as a criterion.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
You think that because you obey that authority no matter what it says. But not killing because if you do, you're going to hell, doesn't make you a good person. You are not talking about morality here, you are talking about fear of punishment.
Sandude 3 years ago 2
If you fear punishment it shows you believe in doing what is not punishable.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
If you evite doing things just because you fear punishment you're the same asshole, just a coward one. Consider a rapist wanting to fuck a 10 year old child. Oh, he's a good person because he evites doing it not to be punished. What a nice guy.
Sandude 3 years ago
Resisting evil is the same as doing good. Any thought can pop into any persons head but to have discipline, thought and control and do what is right is good indeed!
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
If I were saving a life of someone innocent I would lie and it would not be a sin. A sin is a transgression against God. Lying to someone who is not acting to the benefit of Godliness is merely misdirection.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
The commandments are pretty clear. Thou shalt not bear false witness. It says nowhere that this is conditional. Calling a lie misdirection if it saves life is something you believe in that is not derived from religion. What if you were lying to save the life of a gay sex fiend or a blasphemer? Would that constitute a sin since you would be aiding god's enemies?
litegrey 3 years ago
Bearing false witness is telling a lie about someone in order for them to be punished that is a big difference and no one should ever bear false witness for any reason.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
Atheists also dont believe in objective morality like christians do, when we face a situation we draw upon our own personal experience and knowledge as well as our morals to determine how to react. Would you lie to save a life if faced with that choice? According to the bible that is still a sin.
litegrey 3 years ago
Sex with animals is immoral and also ILLEGAL. I have no desire to do that, but then again I'm not from the south. Morals are derived from a variety of sources, mostly living in a society with other humans and learning what is and is not acceptable. If atheists have no reason to restrain themselves then why do nonbelievers make up 12% of the american population but one-tenth of one percent of the american prison population?
litegrey 3 years ago
How can you say that sex with animals are immoral when an atheist believes that humans are part of the animal kingdom? Also criminality has nothing to do with morality, There is gay marriage allowed now in a few states that doesn't change its morality but it does alter its criminality, Marijuana is also legal in some places but there are many people arrested for its use in others. Morality is not always connected to criminality. Polygamy is illegal and there is no doubt that it is moral.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
I believe an act is immoral if it harms others or the one who commits the act. That isn't the full extent of my morality, but it is the basis of it. Sex with an animal isn't consensual which means that it is abuse, much like child abuse. That's why it is immoral. The law, much like religion, isn't perfect because it is created and implemented by man, but the law does provide basic framework for morality and serves to protect individuals' rights.
litegrey 3 years ago
So you're saying that the only thing that keeps you from having sex with animals, killing, raping, and marrying a man is the fear of eternal soul torture? To me that's a depressing view of humanity. Everyone has morals, ours are just derived from a different source than yours. Try to learn a little more about atheism before making another middle school level argument that has no merit.
litegrey 3 years ago
I am saying thank God He taught humans that those things are not good to do.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
this guy is an idiot...look at all the christian and muslim rapists, murderers and criminals in america's prisons...they're religious, but behind bars.
nagyac0 3 years ago
This is where you are wrong, no True believer is one who does crimes against the Lord.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
I wonder how many these "True" believers are. Also how can you judge someone, that he/she is not a believer. Its a relationship with god and that person, not yours.
kais3rz3r0 3 years ago
You believe what you do and it is not me who judges but the person who lacks judgement that doesn't believe.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
We can also say that, a criminal who is an atheist is not a True atheist. True atheist have morals even without god.
kais3rz3r0 3 years ago
No, you cannot say that because being an atheist has no bearing on morality at all nor is it a "moral" philosophy it is simply a lack of belief in God which includes the lack of belief in any absolute moral authority.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
They have abandoned their religion by their acts although some may realize this and repent but an atheist has nothing to repent from and therefore is doomed to Hell!
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
For some reason I have morals, though you say that I dont have them. I think about the other people, not the punisher skydaddy.
kais3rz3r0 3 years ago
Of course having sex with animals is immoral! I'm an atheist by the way, why is it, because the animal is being forced.
I'm completely sure my ethics are much more complex than yours.
rasaerul0l 3 years ago
This is absolutely rubbish. I know many atheists who all have a "moral code" and live in a set way.
Your failure here is assuming that atheists can't define good and evil, which for you is what morality revolves around. Good and evil don't exist, and morality doesn't necessarily need to revolve around those two concepts.
There are numerous ways that one can define a situation, action or behaviour as "right and wrong", and none of those ways relate to the concepts of 'good and evil'.
sameel3 3 years ago
You shouldn't make videos. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Morality is genetically hardwired in the human mind. Also homosexuality is largely a result of a genetic predisposition. And if the only thing stopping you from raping animals is the bible, you are fucked up. Seek help. And I could go into some of the barbaric lessons of the bible and that there is a far greater percentage of the Christian population in prison than that of atheists but that is all well known.
SumerianSentinel 3 years ago
Morality cannot be hardwired, if it was everyone would be moral in the same way. There are no practicing Christians that practice evil so you are incorrect. Titles mean nothing you are what you do.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
Actually, they wouldn't be the same. That is where genetic diversity comes into play. But some aspects of morality are nearly universal such as the aversions to murder, incest, and thievery. But diversity in genetics and in thought make exceptions of all things.
And the idea that Christians who do evil things are not really Christians is crap. If they believe in Christianity, they are Christian. And the fact that they still do evil despite that shows the uselessness of that belief system.
SumerianSentinel 3 years ago
Also, Raptor Jesus loves you, but I think you need to improve your intelligence.
UNGlancer 3 years ago
tl;dr
sage
UNGlancer 3 years ago
religion doesn't give us morals it teaches a set of ideas (some being incredibaly insane) that if you didn't follow the demanded punishment is usually death and damnation (Meaning the people should kill the sinner, usually via stoning, and the God(s) of that faith should damn them). That being the case how can you call religious practice or ideals moral? At least athists can think for themselves and decide wots right and wots wrong, that is true morality! Being able to say wot is right n wrong.
billjohn69 3 years ago
The "original" method of reproduction is asexual, by your definition, being heterosexuality is a perversion. You really don't make a lot of sense.
pietzsche 3 years ago
Dude you should just shut the fuck up.you broke ass "suge knight".
petersalaz 3 years ago
It must be true otherwise you wouldn't get upset.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
you dont make a whole lotta sense you know that?
itsuyo211 3 years ago 3
Thats not true at all! Research the concept of universal morality and cultural relativism. We don't get our moral from a book but rather our genetic makeup and the people around us. Over 200 years ago Christians would have me burned at the stake because of there interpretation of the bible, the same on you read i might add. As we evolve as a people so does the interpretation of the bible. They would probably burn you for how incredibly liberal you are in comparison to them. Respond back...
jagmaster666 3 years ago
Genetics have no inherent morality and people "interpreting" the scripture instead of living by it as it is, is also immoral.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
what differences animal sex with same sex sex?....... dude homosexual couples love each other, and taking advantage of someones or somethings stupidity and innocence to rape it its just wrong.... by the way not all atheist think homosexuality its ok.... prostitution its not ok like the bible sez
TuttiOfruti 3 years ago
Sex with animals? Are you kidding? Atheists don't suggest any such disgusting things. We are also not "pleasure seekers," we just know that things that feel good are not naturally "evil" as religion would have us believe.
To think you have a 'higher' morality because you believe in an afterlife is just absurd. Human kind, as social animals, will always maintain morals to control people. This is a biological and cultural drive, no gods required.
DeadlyChinchilla 3 years ago
An atheist could not say what is good or bad because they have no moral authority, so if they wanted to have sex with an animal to them it would not be wrong because they have no set morality, they can do whatever they "feel" like doing.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
Your assumption is ridiculous, I'll just be that honest with you.
Being an atheist, not having a godly father figure looking over our shoulder, does not mean we will become deviants. Our society and culture is important to us, and we wouldn't want to engage in such taboo activities, or we will be expelled from our societies for it.
Morality is not a sub-form of religion. In fact, atheists/non-religious people have lower divorce, incarceration, and abortion rates than religious people.
DeadlyChinchilla 3 years ago
Atheists don't believe in being called a "deviant" or anything being called "taboo" wouldn't you call homosexuality, normal? Homosexuality and Beastiality are both immoral for those who believe in morality.
Bodhitharta 3 years ago
I'd really love to know how you 'know' what atheists supposidely believe, being religious yourself. You don't know, you are making ASSUMPTIONS.
Yes, atheists like to fit into their culture/society just as well as anyone else, and not do extremely taboo things. Homosexuals don't believe their conduct is deviancy from the norm since its documented that most all mammals have homosexual encounters. Beastiality however, is just disgusting, any GOOD person will tell you that, all morals aside.
DeadlyChinchilla 3 years ago
dude homosexual couples fuck each other cuz they luv each other, zoophiles just take advantage of an animal's stupidity to rape it....and ur not supposed to do to others what you don't want for urself
TuttiOfruti 3 years ago
Seriusly.... are you fucking retarded?
KingStoph 3 years ago
So can you! just interpret the scriptures different. You can justify killing me and deadlychinchilla just because we oppose your religious views. I'm not saying you would, I'm just saying anyone can. Read my comment above.
jagmaster666 3 years ago
religious folk say that if ur an atheist u hav no morals & it doesnt matter 2 u if some1 walked in2 a room & shot every1. in fact they would find this even more despicable than a christian because christians view this life as just a stepping stone 2 a magical heaven 4 all eternity. atheists r realists bcuz they accept just how precious this 1 life is and dont squander it
liber8me 3 years ago
man i hate to comment twice. Please do not quite your day job!
Seeknolig 3 years ago