TSR2 Destruction of the Prototypes

[brownjack56]

We here in America almost lost the B-1B the same way as the UK lost the TSR.2. President Carter cancelled the program, because he felt it wasn't "cost effective." Luckily for the USAF, a few flying prototypes were kept for testing and experimentation. Leave it to short-sighted politicians to screw the military. Our government is preparing to take between 600 billion and 1 trillion dollars from our military. They don't understand what that could end up doing to out country's security.

[dmax631]

all i can say is Fuck Labour

[mattsta1964]

One of the worst acts of industrial vandalism ever committed.

Dennis Healey, a founder member of the Bilderberg Group WAS responsible for this act or gross treason against the British nation.

An utter scumbag

[RATIONALMIND001]

The TSR2 was cancelled under pressure from the USA. They didn't want any competition for their F-111 and any escape of advanced technology to unfriendly countries. The fate of Canada's Avro Arrow was similar. All the aeronautical expertise left for the USA also.

[albion2742]

When this was cancelled to buy the American fighter as it was more cost effected.It turned out that after UK put the RR enginge in the US plane that ended up costing more than the TSR 2.

[zarquon53]

@omgitshardtofindID The TSR2 was designed to enter Russian Airspace in deep penetration missions at low level and then " Lob " a stand off nuclear bomb ( primitive cruise missle ) on to the target . Unfortunately , this scenario was rendered hopeless by the forthcoming airborne "look-down radars like the AWACs , which the Russians were believed to have in development too .

Hence the decision not to proceed , and the decision to destroy the very advanced platform so this could not be copied .

[easybeat]

And recently we've just seen Nimrods being publicly demolished...!

[SR71ABCD]

Destruction of the prototypes heh? I don't think so there's one one left at RAF Duxford.

[pg1171]

The US had a very big hand in most of the UK designs being scrapped, but THIS travesty should never have happened! It was like they were telling the rest of the UK aero industry, don't design anything else, or THIS will happen to YOU! Now they are having to co-operate with other countries just to get an aircraft designed! The awful economies over the last three decades haven't helped either.

[MrCayoCoco]

Reminds me of the Avro Arrow (CF 105) destruction.

[pg1171]

@MrCayoCoco Wonderful plane, and the US caused it to be dropped! Just the ol' US getting rid of competition! And yes, I DO live in the US.

[donzdonz]

Let's hope that when the official secrets act lapses on this horrid affair, that the truth comes out - and SHAMES those responsible for this ridiculour act of destruction !

[pidgin]

Heartbreaking

[macbrack04]

Absolutely disgraceful decision and actions...if not for the cancellation I would have been working on the TSR2 in service with the RAF....a beautiful aircraft that fitted the maxim 'if it looks right it is right'.....there should be legay accountability and redress against all politicians for their decisions.....

[RobertFm1]

My farther in law who worked on it (flight test) said the decision was criminal. Much the same decision on Concorde which he also worked on, in the end because the Americans wanted both.

[kevster755]

painfull!

[stnem1]

Yet another way our piss pot government gave in to the Yanks.

[giantafricansnails]

Who did this to the TSR-2? I am furious that the cancellation was not authorized. TSR-2 was not given a chance to compete, the F-111 aardvark was being developed in america, so obviously that would be better wouldn't it? Well, the TSR-2 was cancelled, and effort was put into F-111 before either were tested andwhen it was, guess what? it wasn't good enough for the RAF so they went for tornado instead. If given the chance, what could TSR-2 have done? What could it have been? What would it be?

[Firespectrum122]

It wasn't just the TSR-2 going up in smoke. It was Britain's air industry and place as as superpower. Gone.

[LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH]

@Firespectrum122 Sorry, disagree, we were well beyond being a superpower by 1965! lol WW1 & WW2 finished the UK off, that, and the huge debt we owed to the US broke the bank. It's been downhill all the way since the turn of the 20th century. America has had her day too, China is rapidly rising, by 2025 she will be a full blown superpower. By 2030, China will exceed US GDP. Uncle Sam's time as Top Dog has nearly run out, which ironically mirrors Britain's position by 1900-the US was rising then.

[lavolvo]

Nooooooooooooooo...Baaaaasssta­aaaarrrrrrrrrrddddddddddddddss­sss!!!!!!

[WalthamstowLife]

We now know of course that the Labour government of the time were in the pockets fo the soviet union.

[projetociclone]

Incredible final story.

[hinkyponky]

It sounds suspiciously like cancelling the Miles .52 supersonic plane at 90% completion - with the Americans having access to all data and research - The Bell X1 supersonic aircraft looks remarkably similar - funny that

[pixelsilva]

Communist scavangers of the labourist party. Britanin never again embarked in a lone aeronautical project. All that followed: Concorde, Jaguar, Tornado, Harrier AV-8, Eurufighter, A-380... were developed with sharing venture. Britain lost the aeronautical supremacy, a must to be a global competitor.

It was a tecchnological harakiri. In order to give the TSR.2 contract they forced aircraft companies to merge, that way English Electric, Vikers, Armstrong. Siddeley, Bristol, etc. were doomed.

[duxberry1958]

labour shite

[Nickthebassist01]

Disgusting that this plane was cancelled. From what I've seen, read, and been told, it was just too good for its own good. Light years ahead of its day, and would probably still be in service today.

[viewson800]

you are totally correct. The Avro Arrow came to the same fate as the TRS-2, and those yank were to blame! Britain is not aloud to make any jet fighter superior to the US.

[Nickthebassist01]

We already did. It's called Eurofighter.

[loshasguy]

@Nickthebassist01 how true ! look up eurofighter vs raptor if you fancy a laugh the yanks dont like being shown up.

[bazzaah]

It was the beginning of the de-skilling of the British economy, something we have pursued with great vigour, bizarrely. A sad, shameful story.

[SAHBfan]

There's something not right about the "It's the Americans wot did it" argument. Why didn't they force the cancelletion of the Canberra, or the lightning,or the Hunter? All of which took international sales rom them. They ended up buying the Canberra themselves...

And why the total destruction thing? That has never been done before or since - it was bizarre.

I think there is a pretty big piece of the puzzle missing, without which it will never be completed.

[evilintel]

Different times, different players. By comparision of similar aircraft in their respective roles, TSR.2 was far more advance than was the US unfortunately adopted. US plicy after WWII left them without a decent strike plane, so they got Canberra, as an intrem measure. Lightning and Hunter were never serious threats because of typical British short range and high price. TSR.2 had the potential to deal a big blow to US superiority, and at a cheaper price.

[LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH]

@evilintel Sorry, you are wrong, TSR 2 was much more expensive than the F-111. It was the sheer cost of the machine that contributed to it's downfall. The country was nearly bankrupt, we couldn't afford it. In addition, we had just relinquished our Middle East commitments. It pains me to say it, but we actually didn't need TSR 2 any longer. Our sole role lay in NATO- Europe. As such, TSR 2 was over specified for a purely NATO role ie TACTICAL strike, as opposed to strategic strike. Sad but true.

[pg1171]

@LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH That's never stopped th US! I do agree though. The TSR2 was a magnificent aircraft, but way over-engineered for the specifications. A lot of aircraft today would have a tough time competing with it, I believe. I see the Typhoon II as a modern TSR2, although not as radically advanced for the time it was designed. RIP TSR2!

[viewson800]

The Avro Arrow also came to the same fate as the TRS-2. Those damn yanks again. Scared that the British would leave them in the dust in technology and sales. Those pushy bastards want to dominate everything. Stealing our best and bright engineers like Alan Brown, who was the chief engineer for the stealth F-117 fighter. YES, he was British and that's how stealth came to be, they won't admit that truth.

[tpsossff]

TSR2 was doomed anyway. It was too cumbersome. Look again at the rear landing gear. Anything other than a perfect landing would have broke it. Costs were spiralling and the airframe would have to have been hugely redesigned to correct the problem.

Like Blue Streak, this project was destined to become obsolete before it went into service.

[tpsossff]

Don't blame Labour ....... The Yanks were actually impressed with the defence the Labour party put in place.

But TSR2 was seen as a threat to the US defense industry, not the plane itself but the management systems that were fast evolving in British industry and we had to be kept in line if the Yanks were to continue our insurance policy.

They let GB and France build Concord though, mainly because the French were not endebted to them and did not give a fig about the Americans.

[viewson800]

Nice comment. It tells the real truth about our relationship with the US. Usually, people or individuals who needed to be kept in line as you elequently put, suggests that the recipients are usually smarter than they are or in debted. That's why they ended up with our best Engineers (eg, Alan Brown (skunkworks, Lockheed)) and all our ground breaking technology from the end of WW2 to the present, (eg The magnatron, the Movable rear wing). They had'nt a clue what they were doing and still don't!

[LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH]

@viewson800 Agreed. We even broke the sound barrier for them! They lied to the British gov when they offered a deal whereby we handed over all our secret research data, in return for a promised joint project. WIthin three weeks of handing over our files, the duplicious Yank bastards cancelled the deal. They STOLE our research. As you say, how 'odd' that the Bell X-1 appears to be a carbon copy of the Miles M52. They had to use rockets to break the barrier! lol Germany put Man On The Moon too!

[helimeal]

Vote Labour

OUT!

[WinchesterRanger]

Dennis Healey was the most destructive and despicable politician that the UK ever had.

I would not believe him if he sat on a stack of bibles, the man is the vilest of creatures.

[gilliguts]

This aircraft died due to british incompitence. Thou I notice how they like to blame it on the Americans.

[evilintel]

There's a lot of truth the the US being involved in it being scrapped...and this is coming from an American. Or have you not noticed the UK (conviniently) bought F-4s' and C-130s', when their own companies had equal, homemade designs that were completely ignored? The US had a BIG hand in getting this machine canned, because they knew TFX would never sell if it had any competition.

[swanseauk]

@evilintel Briton was not the only country to suffer this fate in thier aircraft research due to american underhanded policies. Search for info on the Canadian AVRO ARROW project. Superb aircraft that suffered the same fate as the TSR2.

[macbrack04]

@evilintel Totally agree...I ended up working on the re-engined FGR2 Phantom and should have been working on the TSR2 in RAF Service....the americans had a dirty hand in this and other UK aviation cancellations...Comet, Trident, Viscount, Blue Steel etc etc...

[zarquon53]

@macbrack04 and dont forget the mysterious crash and end of the "Optica" programme , the little plane that could do the survelliance work of a helicopter at a third of the price - who has the biggest Helicopter industry ?

[pyromohanzed]

All that pollution caused by the burning too! People should develop airplanes for fun and scientific purposes, not for the government or air force, let them deal with it on their own. companies should NEVER sell to a government.

[Ifuckingh8you]

Can somebody please tell me the name of this documentary?

[MarcJboy]

Heard mention that the scrap was used for washing machines - what an ironic ending.

[Keizerdraak]

...The Gripen is good (lightweight), but 2 heavyweights is too much. And Europe is lacking a heavy bomber, has a shortage on transport capability (yes, the A400 is almost 30 yrs old -on paper!), and no CV(N)s (except for the CdG). All European countries were simply whipped in the 50s by the US, and are still in that position. The next step must really be a common foreign and defense policy, or we remain lackies!

[Keizerdraak]

And it might be the case that international programs werre the way of the future, as far as European countries are concerned, most of them are not too succesful or efficient either, and leave serious gaps in capability. That partly has to do with the fact that Britain mentally is closer to the US than to Europe, but economically, military and politically is more closer to Europe. Hence, the Eurofighter, Rafale AND Gripen...

[Keizerdraak]

...The sad thing, of course, is that the US promises turned out to be a disappointment at best. And for the longer term, it wrecked British (military) aviation industry; installing RR-engines in F-4s is simply a waste of resources and money (better spent on TSR2!). Then again, the TSR.2 was an extremely advanced concept, and I honestly doubt whether the entire package really would have worked. But British aviation industry deserved a far more glorious ending than this.

[Keizerdraak]

British aviation industry was on a high roll since WW2. Unfortunately, that same conflict bankrupted the economy. Although I (being a Dutch military historian) believe the 57 White Paper was misused as a scapegoat to simply axe it all, and the cancelation of the TSR was a grave mistake (but not the only one-> look at British carriers, the P.1154 and others), there simply wasnt any money left, and US promises (and pressure!) were the final nail on the coffin...

[gerry941]

I returned from RAF Germany in 1968 to join RAF Coningsby. This was to be the 1st TSR2 base. Within our part of the Electronics Block we found some cupboards already containing TSR2 spares. That's how far the programme was advanced!

In his day Healey (now a Lord for goodness sake!) often used the expression "Silly Billy". I can think of a few more choice epithets to describe and his ilk in Wilson's government. But do go and see a TRS2 at RAF Cosford museaum - then weep!

[helimeal]

Criminal.

[kirkjamestkirk]

How could someone obey such a stupid order! [It's impossible to destroy something you've worked on so hard]

[alexgets98]

The root of all this is the labour goverment and of course, the americans!!!

[xfire7]

The person or persons should be tried for treason

[lOmnivoreSobriquet]

This sorcery.

I swear you it is sorcery, in action, I smell it. Small wonder they refuse to revel who personnally ordered that. Some 'informal circle', you can bet.

I'm a multiple decades aviation enthousiast, French, and I can tell you this is the worst display of steadfast inversion of any state logics at its most basic, involved in an aviation program, anywhere anytime.

Add to that then, the 'ceremony', the meaningful sacrifice. This is beyond the rest, remains way up a leading ignominy.

[mph7]

Gets me fuckin madd, and i mean mad. the bloody stupid british way of letting others push us around. look at us now full of druggies pakkis and niggers. Britian used to be GREAT. Full of great minds and great people who built this aircraft, nothing good will come out of the Uk again...Ive moved to australia.

[9256steven]

I think we can safely say that the TSR2 fell foul to the fears of the US military and banker (illuminati)

If It wasn't for the French, the US wouldn't have let us have the Concord, even If it did have an 'e' on the end!

[swisstestpilot]

To Stop a Project is one thing,is one thing..may a ti was necesary (in the Eyes of the responsibal person at that time.... but i think it was wrong the TSR2 was perfect).

BUt to destroy everything was wrong and not necesary ..this realy smell like coruption. trye to hide that the TSR2 was truhly at the top of Aviationknowhow

[swinkyuk]

Politicians, bent, untrustworthy and incompetent. Everytime they interfere with a project, civil or millitary, it turns into a disaster.

[raynus1]

Shades of the Canadian CF-105 Arrow. Similar story. Same fate.

[lOmnivoreSobriquet]

Yes !

I've thought of that too. However, politics bullying aviation program with competing self satisfaction in blatent incompetence, has to remain a classic vision of Occidental 20th century...

That some of these symbolic and large program were used to 'sacrifice' entire nation potential however, has to be more 'rare'.

One cannot imagine a king or any well governed nation crushing their courntries' finest workmanships and efforts in such a humiliating way.

[bobbynogs17]

I once spoke to a chap who worked on this aircraft, and he told me that a lot of the brains behind it up and left the country after this and sadly some ended there lives. A very sad part of our history , when becoming ashamed of being British became part of our culture that still lives today.

[digglyda]

When I was at college in the mid-late 1980's some of the old Engineering lecturers had been involved in the TSR.2 project. They were bitter on the subject to say the least.

[supressorgrid]

A liberal in the classic sense is indeed a modern conservative.

[SAHBfan]

The Americans, Healey, Jenkins & Wilson have all been repeatedly blamed here and on other TSR2 threads.But there was one other villian who I haven't seen mentioned, yet. There was a journalist for the Economist called Mary Goldring who, keen to make a name for herself, was extremely anti the TSR-2 and did a great deal to try & convince the public that it was an overpriced disaster. She said the same about Concorde and boasts today about how she was right.

Well, with the TSR-2 she was WRONG.

[supressorgrid]

Didnt the liberals in Britain do the same to guns?Confiscated then immediatly destroyed them so as no future govt might give them back?

[theredraven]

No, that was Labour. What Labour practice is different to liberalism. Liberalism would probably support the freedom of the individual to own a gun.

[bluecats]

There is a theory that the socialist Labour govt gave in to Soviet pressure. The likes of Dennis Healey can never be trusted.

[peepeevagi]

Then again, it's kinda scary to imagine a world with it.

Who knows.

It could have been the literal final straw that brought on global nuclear holocaust.

Divine stake.

[wittmann]

The F-14 tomcat parts and planes have suffered the same fate...

[cavalier080854]

At lest the Tomcats had a good lease of service before destruction. TSR 2 only had one plane that was built and flew, the second plane would have flown the very day it was cancelled, but was refused even that flight. The only good thing, if you can call it that, is that it was saved and is now in a museum, if it had flown it would have been destroyed along with its sister plane. TSR 2 R.I.P..

[badvidsfromgermany]

Hey, I like planes, too, but you're acting almost as if they burned people there.

[ladymaud100]

Oh no we are not! It is a question of national pride in that we were the best then - we built the very best aeroplanes before anyone else only to have it all conspiracy destroyed by conspiracy politics and a government that had no pride in its country's achievements. So now all we are are lackeys of Europe and America all because of politics. Its a very sad state of affairs.

[DarkLordDiablos]

The American's knew that we had built Aerial Greatness which could out perform that piece of shit they call the F-111 Aardvark not to mention out sell it and so they played the old

"You still owe us money from WW2 so instead of us asking for it all back and maybe bankrupting you, you can just totally destroy that new plane of yours so it doesn't compete with out piece of crap." card and we agreed like a bunch of pussies.

After all we could have made a shit load with this plane if it was sold.

[theredraven]

The F-111 was a good plane. Not a piece of shit. Don't blame the Americans for Harold Wilson & his cronie Callaghan being cheapskates who wanted to do defence on the cheap rather than invest the money into a good project like the TSR 2.

[FallenPhoenix86]

The 111 eventually matured into a very potent aircraft, however the early models were outright disasters. The TSR2 Prototype could do things the 111 and Tornado can only dream of. Imagine a TSR2 with the years of operational experience and subsequent developments. If the Prototype can outperform the E model 111 what does that say of the Early 111's

It is entirley plausible the US had a hand in the death of the TSR2, just look at the F-104 fiasco, bribary and corruption of the highest order.

[LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH]

@DarkLordDiablos I used to subscribe to your theory, however, it is not accurate. The US actually brokered a deal whereby we could buy the F-111, which was much cheaper than TSR 2, on credit. In effect, the US offered us a ten year installment deal. McNamara was very keen for Britain to maintain it's Middle East commitments and he knew the RAF would require a strategic strike aircraft. There is NO proof that the US applied pressure to scrap TSR 2. Read Tim McLelland's latest book about TSR 2!

[DarkLordDiablos]

@LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH Why would we need the F-111 when we had the TSR-2?

The F-111 was no where near as good or able to do what the TSR-2 could.

As for you saying theres no proof, ofcourse theres no proof, all the proof is locked away where only those who have signed the Official Secrets Act can view it.

Its blantantly obvious they had some involvement as not only was it cancelled but all the plans were also destroyed so we couldn't re-built it at a later date which is all the proof you need.

[LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH]

@DarkLordDiablos On paper, the projected costs of the F-111 were much cheaper than those associated with TSR 2. Whilst the F-111 was not as advanced as TSR, it would have provided the RAF with an adequate aircraft capable of carrying out low level interdiction. The cash strapped Labour gov viewed F-111 as sensible proposition, especially given the fact that the US offered a ten year credit deal. As it turned out, the costs of F-111 soared. T.B.C

[LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH]

@LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH Whilst there does appear to be plenty of circumstancial evidence that the US played a part in TSR 2's downfall, there appears to be a woeful lack of hard evidence, as you suggest, that could be due to the Official Secrets Act.....Either way, I think the loss of TSR 2 did untold damage to our aviation industry & we are still suffering the consequences. It is immensely frustrating to think we built such an awesome aircraft, and due to bungling & lack of confidence, we lost her.

[AkAlpinista]

@DarkLordDiablos My father flew F model Varks in the late 80s and early 90s -- and he loved them. The F-111 matured into an excellent aircraft.

Of course, the key word there is "matured." No one can argue that the Vark was a better design than the TSR 2 back at the outset. Short story: this is a damned infuriating video to watch.

[DarkLordDiablos]

@AkAlpinista You said it yourself Matured and then proceeded to say it was a better aircraft.

The TSR2 was better the the F-111 but a large margin, as it was a grear aircraft from the start and would have continued to get better and better as the years went on.

By the time the F-111 matured in into a great aircraft the TRS2 would have been even better.

[3L3CTR0static]

I mean this is how it works, u build something really amazing , absolutely advanced at it's timeand america will take it or order to destroy it. Because they are afraid thats it, I mean the german aircraft in the 40's was so advanced that we are still using some of the stuff invented at this time nowadays. What happened? The yanks have stolen all the patents and said they invented everything. And i'm talkin bout serious advanced technology not only in the aircraft

[PMN42]

Red hot pokers are too good for the wankers who ordered this.

[jezzer1969]

Healey is a founder member of the Bilderberg group. He's a freemason and did what the Americans told him

[avroken]

Why was this project so hated by the government? why was the prototype destroyed?

why were all the jigs, computers and records destroyed

[otester]

Evil Labour party.

[MrMoorkey]

The TSR2 was destroyed, murdered some say, because the American's made a deal with the Labour Govt to terminate the program in favour of a modified F111. Of course, once the TSR2 was termianted, we were left floundering as our F111 variant was also cancelled.

[1981rocketman1981]

Is it just me or can everyone ells see the bull-shit come out of Lord Healey's mouth!...

[cavalier080854]

The trouble with politicians is not what they say (which is usually nothing, or only their point of view), but what they don't say (so they can say they have'nt lied). He mentions Jenkins and himself as the only two people who could order its destruction, but what about Wilson? As Prime Minister he could have ordered its destruction, if this is so then what Healey is saying is true. To quote a later saying "You are being conservative with the truth".

[Reichsfuhrer1979]

@cavalier080854

And seeing how PM Wilson was a Communist spy who nearly had his ass couped by Lord Mountbatten, I guess we have our guilty party. That bastard should have hanged.

[lfstweak420]

Fuk Lord Healey, even if he didn't order it, he can still keep it... It'll be a wonderful aircraft even till now. Fancy him being a Minister of Defense...

[nighttrain1067]

Sickening footage.These aircraft would have been awesome!

[Rufus3698]

"mainly because it would have been faster, more manouverable and was more technologically advanced than anything the f****g Americans produced and they didn't like it."

The UK threw away a world class aerospace industry with both hands, ENTIRELY due to the policies of leftist politicians. Maybe when enough people own up to that fact and stop blaming "THE AMERICANS", there will be some true settling of accounts with the heirs of those policies. The list is long and infamous.

[randomusernamemygod]

It is actually, it was a major competitor for the F-111. Dont forget the UK still owed the US a great deal of money for the overpriced materials sent to Britain during WW2.

[10Cnote]

01:41 who is that man?

[cavalier080854]

Thats Stephen Hastings, Conservative MP and director of Handley Page, who wrote the first book on the TSR2 destruction, "The Murder of TSR2". A very difficult book to obtain now, as it was published in 1966 for 35shillings (£1.75). He was one of a small number of Conservative MP's in April 1965 who talked to Roland Beaumont, and in his book was stunned by the magnitude of what was lost. 206 pages of pure gold.

[updougdown]

Imagine all the skills and dedicated time that went into the production of these aircraft? The subsequent destruction only goes to show generally what the british government feels about its country's abilities. Politicians = death.

[PoweredByNamahage]

Mottainai!

[Karadauk]

Unfortunately the blame lies fairly and squarely on Harold Wilson and his Government. Their spendthrift ways led the British Government to go cap in hand to the IMF and the price for the Americans agreeing to bail out the Labour Government was that the TSR2 had to go to protect the American aircraft industry. It remains one of the darkest periods of Labour Government in this country.

[fister69]

what a crying shame 20 years ahead of its time and better than any thing the yanks had at the time i think thats why it was destroyed it frightend the yanks so they convinced the powers that be buy our icbm`s planes are old hat if the shoe was on the other foot etc.....

[Max724]

Definately mate! But our Tornado GR4 & F3 are derived from the TSR2! With our pilots (who don't happen to take drugs to keep them awake...unlike the spams), we have the best Air Force in the world. Slight difference too...we don't bomb our Allies!!!

[10Cnote]

But now we don't our airforce has been reduced because the "New Labour" government we have now is and has been destroying our once great Airforce to make sure that no part of this country's history or heritage is left behind!

[Max724]

Well said...this was unbelieveable when the order was given...mainly because it would have been faster, more manouverable and was more technologically advanced than anything the f****g Americans produced and they didn't like it. So a lot of money was exchanged hand to cancel this project, just so the yanks could feed their ego's as they completed their F-111. Unfortunately, it pains me to admit that the yanks aren't the only retards. WTF was our government playing at?!?!?!

[kevster755]

Criminal indeed!!

[keegan773]

We had a world beater and what happened. The pinko politicians kissed the great big Russian arse and at the same time caved into pressure from the American defense industry. These are the sort of people who are still fiddling their expenses.

[MrHoppyX]

Surely there should be a criminal investigation. Cancelling the project was at best naiive, but destroying all the work seems pointless. Must have been heartbreaking to anyone working on the project. This happened before I was born but I still find it hard to watch. We were the best in the world, but someone just chucked it all in the bin.

[betterave434]

Very similar ending to the Avro CF-105 Arrow... sad indeed!

[mobius1aic]

Yes yes very VERY sad. Two planes that would've been the best in their field.....that never got to see the light of service, really terrible.....

[607136]

Guys I think this says it all, look what they did to Frank Whittle. When the 50 year seal comes of the official records I wonder what they will say. When we wanted the upgrade codes for the Chinook the yanks said the same thing - National Security - Do as we tell you not do as we do!!!

[apswrittle]

Wilson, Jenkins and Healey should've been shot for canceling TSR2. I would say that these twatts took a 'kick-back' from the yanks who did steel our technology. The typical fucked up labour government hadn't got a clue about planes, technology or anything else come to that. What a fantastic achievement this whole project was, a fabulous looking aircraft light years ahead of it's time. I hope all labour MP's burn as well as the TSR2 remains, they certainly won't be remembered for as long.

[DuffySAS]

The Yanks clearly gained inspiration form this Aircraft with the Vigilante. It would have destroyed the American Aircraft trade because the TSR2 was actually cheaper than the F111 which was shit anyway. We have some of the Worlds greatest talent but the government keeps putting them down. Just look at the American SST project, was a complete disaster because they received no help from us or the French. When they go it alone the Yanks often fuck up. Even the new F-35 has British Aerospace input.

[JMACSJM]

typical american way of doing things.steal every body elses idea then say that they invented it

[utopiaboy]

If you like the conspiracy on this plane, then look at the Miles M52 story if you can find it. Miles designed this aircraft so that it could break the sound barrier. Unfortunately, the designs were borrowed by the americans and then the project was cancelled. If you look at the design it looks very much like the bell x1. mmmmm Strange one that!!!!

Conspiracy, at the highest level. PROJECT CANCELLED.

[cavalier080854]

The designs weren't borrowed, under an agreement of mutual knowledge, we gave them all our info on sound barrier problems and solutions(approx 7 years) under the understanding they will show theirs. After 14 days, no info, we asked and got the reply "sorry, national security no go". Amongst the info given was no tail flaps, just single rotating tail gear. As seen on the M52. Something the yanks say is their invension.

[cavalier080854]

If the M52 did fly it would have taken off and landed under its own power, not by being dropped from a bomber (which is a bit of a cheat) to break the sound barrier.

[terencehooper]

independence from yanks,tanks guns and thanks-enter the re-emergent-quote-g wker bush-of old europe!where dooes his rednecks claim their origins?!

[cavalier080854]

Their origins are the good old USofA, except on photo calls etc, when they come from Ireland or Scotland. I wonder why none of them come from England?

[HeavensGremlin]

lol...... I'd noticed that too, - glad I'm not the only one.

[GRAHAMAUS]

It should now be possible to find out "whodunnit" as all the papers have been released to the National Archives at Kew under the 30 year rule. Unfortunately the relevant papers haven't (yet) been digitised and are no online, but they are listed in the catalogue so someone ought to go and get a reader's ticket. There's probably a book in it for whoever bothers!

[cavalier080854]

I wouldn't hold your breath on that. Some info will be released, maybe nearly all. But

Cabinet rulings on difficult matters can be withheld for 50,75,100 years or even never. This is especially true when ministers are still alive, even if they are retired or in the Lords (same thing). This stops later governments snipeing at each other.

[daytona6man]

I met Roland Beaumont in 1995 & he was gracious enough to spare me 10 minutes of his time which we spent talking about the TSR2. How many times have we as a country scrapped world beating designs with the excuse of cost, or over-run of time. We were lucky that in the 1930's a woman called Lady Lucy Houston wrote a cheque for £100,000 & gave it to Supermarine to develope the Spitfire. A friend of mine was made redundant from BAE a couple of years ago & he couldn't wait to go.

[terencehooper]

what resulted from the ashes of tsr2,was its offspring the english electric lightning-arguably the best interceptor of its day

[cavalier080854]

I agree with your opinion of the Lightning as an interceptor, but the Lightning had already been developed when TSR2 was being designed. An F5 Lightning was used as camera plane in the test flights of TSR2, so it cannot be an offspring.

[supermajor1962]

how can you get that so wrong?

[Neanderthalmanny]

The UK government at the time was run by absolute dick heads. We stole a march on the yanks in both military (TSR2) and commercial aviation (VC-10) then lost it. Is that a fookin coincidence or what? At least the legacy of the TSR is that its engines went on (in modified form) to power the Concorde.

[cavalier080854]

In typical british shortsighted pennypinching fashion, after the cancellation, for a fixed price of £1.5m, a further 100hr of testing was proposed to help with the costs for Concorde development. It was turned down as too much, resulting in massive overspend.

[terencehooper]

tsr2-to advanced-to expensive and scrapped-lock stock and barrel to yank demands 4 more loans to a bankrupt cousin!

[cavalier080854]

I totally agree. Yanks didn't let us off WW2 payments for goods, which we only just finished paying, this debt has been used repeatedly to influence british policies, Suez comes to mind as an example.

[gixergs]

At least we were left a couple of airframes the Arrow was just wiped away completely. Very sad if they didn't want them as aeroplanes then they could of used them as art

[dbarl64]

Dont know but the US XB 70 also kinda met the same fate and the XF180

The similarity is is that they were all painted white and looking pretty

Concorde ...again White

[dbarl64]

A super crying shame

[cavalier080854]

Do you detect a note of similarity between the destruction of TSR2 and tha AVRO ARROW? Jigs, drawings, aircraft etc. I see the smoking gun in the americans hands for the destruction of both of them. Both Canada and UK had Labour parties at the relevant time and both caved in under pressure. America must have the best even if it means sticking the boot into its friends.

[HeavensGremlin]

Labour has always sold out. I think that the smoking gun here though is the 'moneyfingers'. It's not US military policies per-se, just the HUGE financial interests behind them. The survival of Israel is living proof.

[wibblefoof]

yes however, the AVRO Arrow did exist ... look at the iron Curtain and see the similarities of what it could have been ... I think it was the Mig-29 FoxBat ... mach 3 capable .. didpite the criminal acts of the destruction of these wonderful concepts, the cold war spies did manage to pass on some infomation and Russia did show us what we could have had