This is very interesting.Jesus is the name given to Gods son at his birth Matthew 1:25.How can Isaiah see Jesus before B.C.E.(Before christ era)Why didnt bible say Isaiah saw Jesus?You said Abraham ate with the lord,Genesis 18:1 Yahweh appeared to him among the big trees of mamre Gen.18:2 He ate with three men not the Lord.The trinity is a teaching of the Church.The bible does not teach the trinity.Thats the reason for our disagreement.Question.Can you find a scripture that mentions Trinty?
@313kaiser85 You said, "Why didnt bible say Isaiah saw Jesus?" It does in John 12:41. Some versions say Jesus (such as NIV) some use a pronoun, but it is clear who the pronoun is referring to.
It is clear that Yahweh is one of the three men talking and walking with Abraham in Genesis 18. If you don't see that it is due only to your traditions. Read the whole chapter. Abraham and Yahweh are having a conversation as they walk.
Are you asking whether the word "Trinity" appears in the Bible?
Thanks for the reply.Im happy to discuss Gods word.Obviously you are seeking Gods will and truth.John 12:41says Isaiah saw his glory.Isaiah 6:1 he saw Yahweh lifted up on a throne and had angels around him.God used visions to talk to the prophets.You mention the bible doesnt contradict itself,I totally agree.Exodus31:20God says"You are not able to see my face,because no man may see me and yet live" Moses,Isaiah,John and others saw Gods glory not his face.
@313kaiser85 In John 12:41, "His glory" is referring to the glory of Jesus. The pronoun throughout that passage is referring to Jesus. Therefore, when Isaiah saw Yahweh, he was seeing Jesus. Also, it's clear that your whole explanation is false, especially when Abraham spoke with and ate with Yahweh. This was clearly not a vision. Abraham saw Yahweh, yet no one has seen the Father. Either the Father is not Yahweh, or God is 1 being in at least 2 persons.
The bible refers to the Son of God many times.If God has a son.What is the sons name?Matthew 3:16,17 answers that question clearly.Jesus prayed many times while on earth John17:3.Who was he praying to obviously a higher power Yahweh, Jehovah or many just call him God.More evidence is Jesus died as a man a human sacrifice for all.Almighty God is the source of all life.Can he die?The bible says no.Dont beleive me read for yourself.
@313kaiser85 Your entire comment only shows that you have no understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. Furthermore, not a shred of it has anything to do with the video.
No one has seen the Father. People have seen Yahweh. What is your explanation of that? John's explanation of at least one instance is that Jesus is Yahweh (John 12:41).
Christ has come to me 7 times, awake too! Because I once cried and asked God to give me the Holy Spirit as I read and read .. and I woke up after three weeks of reading the Gospel and asking and having ZERO fun, ZERO music, TV, everything just to give God the time to see what happens, GUESS WHAT.. Jesus is REAL... and if YOU want proof... ASK for the HOLY SPIRIT from GOD in Jesus name WHILE you read the entire Gospel... and FINISH IT alone, till then, its your LAZINESS that keeps U from God!
also, you keep referring to "eternal hell" , most likely not knowing what that means, and you use it as though that is supposed to motivate people to go to church. if that is your motive, if you go to church because you dont want to go to hell, i got bad news for you, you are still going to go to hell since the motive to serve God HAS to be because you love Him .
Nobody has seen God at any time . The Bible mentions people seeing Him but then later mention that they saw an angel . Jesus isnt God because He wasnt all knowing as he stated himself , he died, he prayed, he himself had God , he feared, he was born, he was human .
Also, there is a great difference between visions/manifestations and Jesus. God made himself visible at times, but they were manifestations . Kind David wasnt "born again" and was saved
People saw Yahweh/the LORD in Genesis 18 and other places, but no one has seen the Father.
Philippians 2:7 says Jesus made Himself nothing. If He made Himself nothing, what was He before? Do you think it would be possible for your God to join His creation?
David went to Abraham's Bosom to await Jesus' sacrifice, and then He was lead to heaven. All of the Old Testament prophets are in heaven, including David (Matt. 8:11, Luke 13:28).
You need to read those verses in context. David was speaking prophetically of Jesus, and Peter was pointing out that those were Messianic prophecies of Jesus' resurrection, that weren't fulfilled in David's life. It has nothing to do with what you say.
David was a prophet (Acts 2:30). The prophets are in heaven. "...take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 8:11).
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in heaven, and so are the prophets (Luke 13:28).
the Bible plainly says that david is buried and dead till this day, and this is written way after Jesus died and resurrected . sorry, but you lose . your whole theology is based on one parable and on pagan doctrines of immortal souls . David also said that when people die, they can no longer praise God or remember Him because there is no thought in the grave, but according to you, david was still fully aware and alive and conscious at death and thus he COULD remember God and praise him
You're pronouncing me wrong without answering the objections? In Acts 2:25-28/Psalm 16:8-11, David said, "...you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay." Peter explains that David wasn't speaking about himself, but about the Messiah to come.
David's body is in the grave, but his soul is in heaven with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. How do you explain Matthew 8:11?
you must be new to Bible study. "nephesh" (soul) means "breathing creature" . David is no longer breathing and thus doesnt have a soul. When David was alive he WAS a soul. Animals are also referred to as souls in the Bible, yet you probably dont believe that animals have souls since you are the pamphlet stereotypical christian , i already know where you stan on 99 percent of the issues.
Can you provide an exegesis Matthew 8:11 and Luke 13:28 or not? It's Ok if you can't. There are plenty of puzzling scriptures. Just admit it, and try to find an explanation.
both of these verses are saying that some people will not be allowed into the wedding , which takes pace at the end . so thus proves nothing. i dont even know what you meant to prove by this
Both of these verses say Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of heaven. This refutes everything the Watchtower teaches about only 144k in heaven, and only 144k being born again. Furthermore, Luke 13:28 says that the prophets are in heaven, which includes David, which is what we've been talking about for 2 days.
1st. the verse is about a future event, so it doesnt prove that they are already in heaven.
2nd. even if Jesus wouldve taught that dead people continue being conscious, then believers of God wouldve had to not believe him since he would be contradicting scripture
3rd. what does the watch tower have to do with anything?
actually since i believe he died and rose from the dead and am baptized into his death , i am good since those are the requirements , but if YOU are wrong, you are an idolater and worship someone that isnt God. But if Jesus IS Yahweh of the Bible, which he cant be, then i would still be worshiping him since i worship the only One, the Most High God Yah . so if im wrong, it still doesnt matter, since i still meet the requirements and worship the real God, but if you are wrong, woe to you
If you don't worship Jesus, you aren't worshiping the correct God. If you don't believe Jesus is the I AM (ego eimi in Greek), you will die in your sins (John 8:24). Read it for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Do you have a Kingdom Interlinear?
well "ego eimi" doesnt mean Yahweh or God. when i say " i am going to the store" i am not claiming ot be deity.Not only is God's name not I AM , but even if it was, it would only be His name if spoken in hebrew . Also, the response God gave to moses, more accurately translates ""I-shall-be that I-shall-be." not " I am". If jesus clamed he was Yahweh, they wouldnve killed him for claiming to be the son of God
When Jesus said, "Before Abraham was born, I AM" that sentence doesn't make any grammatical sense. When we use the term "I am" we follow it with a noun, verb or an adjective, be it express or implied. Jesus didn't do that, and what he said makes no sense other than the fact that He was claiming to be the I AM.
Ego eimi is the term used in the Septuagint, and Yahweh uses that term to describe Himself in more places than Exod 3. Jesus uses the term elsewhere as well.
i already explained that "I AM" isnt even a proper translation and it should be " I shall be that i shall be" and even if it was translated "i am" Jesus didnt say "i am that i am" . Alot of people say "ego eimi" are they all god ? ALso, Jesus got killed for saying he was the son of God. Jesus never claimed to be God , live with it . and even if he wouldve, then he later died, thus proving he wasnt God
well, peopel "worshipped" david and solomon aswell, but back then, that didnt mean you thought they were deity . By "worship" i meant the way its used in this day and age, as in to revere as a God , not simple "to do reverence" as it meant . Your god Jesus said that the would make people that call themselves jews and are not, worship at my feet . its the same greek word as the one used in your "proof text" προσκυνησωσιν.
All these scriptures, by the way they are handled and taken account for, are obsolete (much less to submit an innocent child having nothing to do with it all to it.)
How do you know you're not the one taking things out of context? If it's so obvious, you should be able to explain. If you're just shooting your mouth off, I'd appreciate you taking it someplace else.
Your credibility would go way up if you responded to the video. And I don't mean copying and pasting a Watchtower article. Put it in your own words.
Im not sure if there are websites regarding this but i went to a local library and dug deep. Search for "Tammuz symbol" or Tammuz ...and try to get alot of information...not just one source...
Tammuz, the false god, is mentioned in Ezekial Chapter 8... God said that in his house (2 Chronicles 2:1, destroyed by babylonians...restored by Cyrus thru Israelites (The book of Ezra) they mourn over the death of Tammuz, and had great detestable things inside his house and on gates and what not. This symbol, if you do research you might find it very interesting, was used in worship to Tammuz. But in Jehovah's law, Jehovah gave word concerning this (Exodus 20:4-6) ... "Tammuz Symbol"
Christians don't worship the cross. The cross may have been a pagan symbol, much like CT Russel's winged disc and the watchtower, but the Romans who executed Jesus were pagans. They wouldn't have hesitated to use a cross. There is a lot of medical, historical and biblical evidence for the cross.
The Watchtower depicts Jesus as having one nail through his hands, but the Bible says there were nails in his hands (John 20:25). With every picture they print, they're misrepresenting the Bible.
Some people dont worship the cross, some people bow to it, some people give praise to it, some people give praise near it, some people just worship God with it.
But all in all, making a carved image and placing it in places of worship for people to bow or praise...
Some Christians dont worship the cross, im Christian but Jehovah's Witness.... wait im getting off topic lol
I agree that people do sinful things with the cross. Nevertheless, the Romans were pagan, and they wouldn't have any qualms crucifying Jesus using a pagan symbol.
Aren't you offended by the Watchtower misrepresenting the Bible by showing Jesus being crucified with one nail through his hands?
I find that intresting, but not misrepresenting. Have you read the book "The Non-Christian Cross"? the author states the instrument used to kill Jesus, in the christian greek scriptures, is called stauros..which is an upright stake, pole or post. However, In John 20:25, it does say "nails" but keep in mind what was stated at deut 21:22, 23.. which paul quoted at Galatians 3:13, so would it be proper to display Jesus' death instrument, IN A PLACE OF WORSHIP or ANYWHERE, if it is a curse?
Misrepresentation means not represented accurately. If they show one nail in their illustrations, but the Bible says there were two nails, that is clearly a misrepresentation. Why doesn't that bother you?
Galatians 3:13/Deut 21:22-23 is the whole point of the gospel. God Himself died the most humiliating death possible. The infinite wrath of God was poured out. Do you believe in a Jesus that is adequate to pay an infinite penalty? Does it make sense that the greatest act of love was not perforemed by Yahweh, but by His created being (John 15:13)?
It's clear that the message of the cross is foolishness to you (1 Cor. 1:18). May I never boast of anything except the cross of Christ (Gal 6:14)
The cross still...is a pagan symbol..not may have been. God lets us know that it is detestable to his eyes (Ezek 8:14)....and we know, Jehovah hasnt changed...(Mal 3:6)...history proves that trees or wood was not abundant because they hardly grew in that land when Jesus was executed. Rather, Acts 5:30 tells us he hung on a stake, or tree. But that is not the case im making with you.. what im saying is that it is an idol too... and to have it in a place of worship is .... you tell me, what is it?
Why are you ignoring my questions? I've done my best to answer every single point you've discussed. I would ask the same in return.
Does it bother you that the Watchtower unrepentantly misrepresents the Bible every time they publish a picture with a single nail through both of Jesus' hands? Does it bother you that on the front of every Watchtower magazine is a pagan symbol or the books that Russell wrote all have pagan symbols (for Ra the Egyptian sun god) on them?
No, im sorry, my daughter woke when i tried to respond..6 hrs later i press post comment and refresh the page and you have a comment already... but to answer this question... It doesnt bother me regarding our saviour Jesus because its not misrepresenting, and what pagan symbol is on EVERY watchtower?
The Watchtower is a Masonic symbol used to represent Mary Magdalene. It is also used in witchcraft to represent the four elements, invoked during ritual to cast the magic circle. I'd post the website this came from with pictures of idols with WTs on them, but I don't think Youtube will allow it.
Russell's 1914 books were the winged, sun disc appears: The Divine Plan of the Ages, The Time is at Hand, etc.
The question I was mainly referring to was: Are you a child of God or of the devil?
Im a child of God, are you? If so, give me your thoughts on the two seeds, who are they, how did they orginate...etc.
As far as the Watchtower, i have no knowledge of these things as far as the "masonic symbol to represent mary magdalene", i would look it up in my own orginazation...(1 John 5:19) is why... but if my religion is false, its 99.9 percent truthful than any other religon.
I'm surprised by your answer. I have been reborn into God's family as His child. The WT teaches that only those who are born again (the 144k) are children of God. I can send you WT articles: g76 6/22 pp. 27-28 What Does It Mean to be "Born Again"? & g88 2/8 pp. 26-27 Who Are "Born Again"? if you don't have them.
I agree that only those who are born again are God's children (John 1:12-13, Romans 8:14-17) 1 John 3:10 says we're children of God or of the devil. There are no other possibilities.
I'm not sure what you're referring to as far as the 2 seeds.
The Bereans were commended for verifying what Paul said (Acts 17:11). How much more should you verify what the WT says with the Bible?
I think this whole pagan symbol thing is silly. My point is that you need to be as critical of your organization as you are of outsiders. We shouldn't lower our guard for anyone but verify what everyone says with God's word (2 Tim. 2:15).
Even if it was a torture stake, it is the symbol of the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:17, 18, Galatians 5:11, 6:12, 14, Eph. 2:16, Philippians 3:18, Colossians 2:14-15.
It is not a sin to have symbols in church. Church. I've never seen anyone worship a cross, but I'm not Catholic.
1 Corinthians 1:17,18 says "the torture stake of the christ not be made useless" meaning, preach so that others can inherit everlasting life and so that his death is not in vain. As well as most of the other scriptures you posted, for his death should not be neglected. Again, can a household not be defiled by certain objects or images? Can a household not be cursed by these things? How about a land? Deut 21:22, 23 states ....
"And in case there comes to be in a man a sin deserving the sentence of death, and he has been put to death, and you have hung him upon a stake, his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day, because something "accursed" of God is the one hung up; and you must not "defile" your soil, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance." So why not a church or a home? The apostle paul stated in Galatians 3:13 ....
"Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: "Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.""
So is it apporpriate for this? We do not need images to self or group apperciate the ransom sacrifice of our lord. Especially when we know what God thinks of it (Ezek 8:14) (2 Cor 6:14-17) Babylon the Great(hcruhc), get out of her and her lies she teach people (Rev 18:4)(Proverbs Chapter 7)
Jesus said in John 8:24 "You will die in your sins if you do not believe that i am he" Jesus is the "SON OF GOD" so since i believe that, thats who he is, i have a chance to be resurrected and not die in my sins. But to continue with JOHN CHAPTER 8, in verse 26 he says "he that sent me is true"... JESUS WAS SENT by whom? Verse 27 acknowledges it is the FATHER who has sent him. Again, How is Jesus God ALMIGHTY?
Again, Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. How does one person submitting themselves to another make them an inferior being?
There is only one God. Jesus cannot be a god, for that would mean there are two gods. If you believe the NWT verson of John 1:1, you are a polytheist, and you can't even reconcile the first commandment.
1 Cor 8:5, 6 states "For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."
This clearly gives evidence who the TRUE GOD is, however there are many gods. Jesus is a MIGHTY GOD, however ALMIGHTY he is not.
1 Cor. 8:4 says there is only one God, and the idols are nothing. My car could become my idol god, but it doesn't posess divinity. There are dozens of verses that say there is only one God, and the polytheism you espouse is the hallmark of paganism.
There is one Lord, the Father (Deut 10:17), and the Son (1 Cor 8:6). There is one God, the Father (John 17:3), and the Son (John 20:28). Why do you deny the Lordship of the Father?
I believe the Father is the Mighty God (Isaiah 10:21).
Wait what! JW's dont believe in many gods. We believe and worship only one true GOD, JEHOVAH. The thing is we know there are many gods however, only one TRue...THAT WE WORSHIP. We give praise only to JEHOVAH. We acknowledge and RESPECT Jehovah's son, JESUS CHRIST ransom sacrifice for all mankind. Im sorry, i get so offended when people "believe" witnesses of Jehovah worship many Gods...or they deny Christ...thats all lies. What you say is true regarding making television, cars, games, etc a god.
Furthermore, because we acknowledge there are many gods, does not mean we worship them..for example, you may already know Satan is considered a god (2 cor 4:4, 1 john 5:19) who rules this world but there is one Soverign LORD/GOD, Jehovah(the father)(Ex 6:3, Psalms 83:18, Isaiah 12:2 KJV) who we worship, and there is one Lord, Christ Jesus (the son) who we apperciate for the repurchase of all mankind.
What is confusing is you say we deny the LORDSHIP of the father, when that is who we worship
Whats even more confusing is that John 17:3 says (to some extent) "This means everlasting life, taking in the knowledge of the only true GOD, and the one who you sent forth, Jesus Christ" To those who are trinitarian(that dont realize that polytheism is what they portray) I ask, How can Jesus, send Jesus? for it says "everlasting life means taking in the knowledge of the True GOD, "AND" the one "YOU SENT FORTH", JESUS CHRIST"... Then ISAIAH 10:21 relates back to the first prophecy (GEN 3:15)
John 17:3 NWT is further evidence of your paganism. The purpose of gnosticism, and the occult is to take in knowledge.
The Bible speaks of knowing God and being known by Him-not gaining knowledge.
You don't understand the Trinity. The Father and the Son aren't the same. They're distinct. The Father sent Jesus. This is consistent with the Trinity.
Isaiah 10 refers to Yahweh as the Mighty God. Isaiah 9 refers to Jesus as the Mighty God. Why isn't Isaiah a blasphemer in your mind?
In Isaiah 10:21, This Mighty God, is Jesus Christ. Not Jehovah God. For Jehovah is ALMIGHTY. Did Jesus not descend from Jacob? (Matthew 1:2, 16) Was he not the remnant or "second adam" of Israel ?(isaiah 65:9) Was he not foretold by Jehovah as his seed in the first prophecy and theme of the bible? (Gen 3:15)
Even if you say Yahweh isn't the Mighty God in Isaiah 10, He is referred to as the Mighty God many times. Joshua 22:22, Job 36:5, Psalm 50:1, Luke 22:69, etc. There is only one Mighty God. I find it silly to argue with someone who pretends to believe the Bible that there is more than one Mighty God.
I don't know whether you're planning on continuing the conversation, but I hope that you won't give up on me with the excuse that you don't want to cast pearls before swine. The Bible describes a reasonable and logical faith, and if your faith doesn't stand up to scrutiny, we know that it's wrong.
I'd love to hear back from you with some reasonable explanation of how Abraham saw Yahweh, but no one has seen the Father, or any other topic you'd like to discuss.
Nah, i was just tied up with family life... Got a 8 month old daughter. So if im two or three days with no response, dont worry, i'll eventually see your message and respond. May i ask what religion are you? Because the bible does speak of faith, and also the bible speaks of religion. Throughout every book of the bible, God plainly describes how he should be worshiped. Are you familiar with the false god Tammuz and his symbols or images?
Yes. One of those crazy people who has been born again into the family of God as an adopted child (John 1:12-13). Have you been reborn as a child of God or do you remain a child of the devil (1 John 3:10)?
The only reasonable JW response I've heard to that arguent is that they had the same hope as Old Testament believers. But that argument failed when I pointed out that they're in heaven (Matthew 8:11, Luke 13:28), not paradise earth.
Well remember "everyone" who lived before Christ came to earth as a sacrifice, never had the chance to goto heaven. Matthew 8:11 & Luke 13:28 states they will have a chance to recline at the table with Abraham...etc...in the "Kingdom of Heaven"... that does not mean they are in Heaven... Remember OUR LORDS PRAYER? Let your kingdom come...Let your will be done on earth and heaven. That Kingdom establishes itself on earth as well... But back to the Christ. Before him deathruled as king.....
But because of Jehovah's underserved kindness he gave his son to the world to repurchase us from death, so that many can have an opportunity to live in a world free from sin (Ps 37:11). God's original purpose was for man to take care of and live forever on the earth, not to live..die..then goto heaven (Gen 1:28). Jesus also opened the door for mankind to have an opportunity to rule as kings and preist in heaven, but only 144,000 (Rev 7:4)....read ROMANS 5:12 to CHapter 6...
Without being born again, you will not see the kindgom of God (John 3:3). I'll go with your definition of the kingdom, but that means you're not going to paradise earth (God's kingdom) without being born again.
Old Testament believers went to Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22) until after Christ's sacrifice.
I agree. They went to Abraham's bosom, which is the paradise portion of Hades. After Jesus' resurrection, He led captives in his train to heaven (Eph. 4:8-11, Ps 68:18). Those people appeared to many (Matt 27:50-53), Jesus proclaimed the gospel to them (1 Peter 3:18-19), and even the thief on the cross was going to be with Jesus that day in paradise (Luke 23:43).
So, are you a child of God, or a child of the devil?
The fact that, THE FATHER IS GOD, THE SON IS JESUS.... its misleading to believe that Jesus, our saviour, the means for us to be resurrected into paradise, is GOD. If that was the case, Those who support the very idea would be in a sense saying... "Jesus is God, however the father is Greater than Jesus. THUS saying, GOD HAS SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIM"....WHICH WE ALL KNOW TO BE MISLEADING SO.... STICK WITH TRUTH.
If Jesus is not God, I am an idolater (and so are the angels in Hebrews 1:6, and everyone in heaven in Revelation 5:11-14). If Jesus is God, and you deny His position, you are an antichrist (1 John 2:22, 4:3). If you don't have a proper understanding of who Jesus is, you will die in your sins (John 8:24).
he pleaded with God saying in Ex 33:18, please cause me to see your "Glory" (meaning LET ME SEE YOU) but in verse 20 he gives his answer. Numbers 12:6-8 you gave your own answer to Abraham's vision of God in verse 6. However, Moses still did not see God, he saw a thick cloudy gloom and not Glory.....
I think i get why so many are confused about this... Isaiah 6:1.. Isaiah was given a vision, "IN A DREAM"... No man has seen God, in a PHYSICAL SENSE. John 6:46 well yes, we agree except on....
Abraham did not see Jehovah directly (Ex 33:20) Jehovah may have appeared to him in a dream, with a supernatural display of glory or by means of an angelic messenger or representative. (Compare Genesis 18:1-3, 28:10-15...with Leviticus 9:4, 6, 23, 24) When Jehovah appeared to Moses, his glory was o so magnificent that in Exodus 24:1, they bow down from a distance.. but in verse 11 "they got a vision" thus not clearly seeing him. Moses was greater than those in verse 1 of chapter 24, and yet...
The Bible tells us when someone seeing God is a dream (Genesis 28:12). When someone actually sees Yahweh, it says so (Isaiah 6:5 Genesis 18:1). Anyone reading Genesis 18 without an agenda knows that Yahweh walked, talked and ate with Abraham face to face. To deny it is to twist the Bible to fit your ideas. You must be honest and let God's word inform your views, not the other way around.
So are we to ignore certain scriptures and only apply scriptures to fit our ideas? Are we to look at Exodus 33:20 and say that it doesnt apply, or God is a lie, because we know for a fact that Jehovah was "literally seen" walking, talking, and eating with Abraham? ...never may that be. Jehovah is not man so that he lies (Numbers 23:19), however, he is righteous and Good. Jesus himself said to a certain man. "Why do you call me good? No one is good except one, GOD" (Luke 18:18-19)
There you go again. You're forcing your interpretation on Genesis 18 because of your presuppositions. Yahweh walked, talked and ate with Abraham, and you are unable to even cope with what the Bible says. It's obvious that you can't reconcile your beliefs with the Bible. Does that mean you stubbornly persist in forcing your beliefs on the Bible? Humble yourself and submit yourself to the clear teaching of the Bible.
Are you familiar with the account of Jesus and the army officer? (Luke Chapter 7) Well the officer slave was sick and the officer felt he was not worthy to have Jesus in his home. In verse 8, he similarly dipicted Jesus' position to Jehovah God. He said "I too am a man placed under authority(Jesus under Jehovah's soverign), having soldiers(Higher than Angels but commanding them) under me..... In response Jesus goes on to say "I tell you, Not even in Israel have I found so great a faith"
If I submit myself to my employer, and do what he tells me to do, does that mean he is a superior being? He is human; I am human, and we are equal. Jesus submits to His Father, but that doesn't mean they aren't equal. In fact, they are equal (John 5:18). Matthew 23:11 says the servant is the greatest among us.
my brother, equal in soverignty? John 14:28 Jesus states the Father being GREATER than him. Greater how? John 20:17 Jesus states "I am ascending to my Father, and your Father, to "MY GOD" and your God. If Jesus is God, does that mean that Jesus has a head or a God that he worships? 1 Cor. 11:3 states "The head of every man is Christ.. the head of Christ is God"
Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. He willingly submits to the Father. You're going to have to explain why one person submitting to another makes that person an inferior being.
1 Cor 15:25-28: For he(JESUS) must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] "subjected all things under his(JESUS) feet." But when he says that 'all things have been subjected,' it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.
I've noticed that you approach the Scriptures with a lot of presuppositions. You should let the Bible speak for itself, rather than interpreting it through your presuppositions.
Verse 28 continue: But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
"But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
Is Jesus not already subjected (v.27)? So then, why does scripture say in v.28 "*then* the Son himself will be made subject to him"?
dude this is deep!! Good work may The LORD bless you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you something else you know that?! lol to all the readers Christ is LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just found something else interesting. Who did Isaiah see in Isaiah 6? He saw the LORD Almighty (Jehovah) being worshipped by angels. In John 12:38-41, John quotes Isaiah 6, and says Isaiah saw Jesus in verse 41.
Isaiah saw Jehovah in Isaiah 6. In John 12:41, it says he saw Jesus.
Abrahm didn't just see of Jehovah. He ate with and talked with Jehovah. You should read Genesis 18, and be honest with yourself. Your eternity depends on it.
I don't understand how John 3:16 goes against the accepted Christian doctrine of eternal torment. Eternal hell is found in Daniel 12:2, 2 Thess 1:8-9, Rev 14:11, etc. Hell is a result of God's holiness and justice. It also shows the magnitude of Jesus' sacrifice.
The Doctrine of everlasting torment, depends on us humans, having a natural immortality. John 3:16, tells us, however, that Immortality is a gift from God, IF we believe in Him. It also states, that the wicked, will perish, that is be destroyed. 1 tim 1:17 and 1 tim 6:15-17, further states, that God is the only Immortal, meaning that the dead, sleep in their graves, until the ressurection. 1 thes 4:13-18.
Dan 12:2, does not say everlasting torment, but contempt or aversion. 2 thes 1:8-9, mentiones everlasting destruction. Rev 14:11 is indeed interesting, requires a longer study to understand those parts. However, Rev 21:4 "No more pain, sorrow, tears.." I believe, Jeremiah spoke of an unquenceble fire, that stopped to burn, sodom and gomorra is good examples of eternal fire aswell, burned until everything was gone.
This is very interesting.Jesus is the name given to Gods son at his birth Matthew 1:25.How can Isaiah see Jesus before B.C.E.(Before christ era)Why didnt bible say Isaiah saw Jesus?You said Abraham ate with the lord,Genesis 18:1 Yahweh appeared to him among the big trees of mamre Gen.18:2 He ate with three men not the Lord.The trinity is a teaching of the Church.The bible does not teach the trinity.Thats the reason for our disagreement.Question.Can you find a scripture that mentions Trinty?
313kaiser85 5 months ago
@313kaiser85 You said, "Why didnt bible say Isaiah saw Jesus?" It does in John 12:41. Some versions say Jesus (such as NIV) some use a pronoun, but it is clear who the pronoun is referring to.
It is clear that Yahweh is one of the three men talking and walking with Abraham in Genesis 18. If you don't see that it is due only to your traditions. Read the whole chapter. Abraham and Yahweh are having a conversation as they walk.
Are you asking whether the word "Trinity" appears in the Bible?
bsp256 5 months ago
Thanks for the reply.Im happy to discuss Gods word.Obviously you are seeking Gods will and truth.John 12:41says Isaiah saw his glory.Isaiah 6:1 he saw Yahweh lifted up on a throne and had angels around him.God used visions to talk to the prophets.You mention the bible doesnt contradict itself,I totally agree.Exodus31:20God says"You are not able to see my face,because no man may see me and yet live" Moses,Isaiah,John and others saw Gods glory not his face.
There is no mention of trinity in bible
313kaiser85 5 months ago
@313kaiser85 In John 12:41, "His glory" is referring to the glory of Jesus. The pronoun throughout that passage is referring to Jesus. Therefore, when Isaiah saw Yahweh, he was seeing Jesus. Also, it's clear that your whole explanation is false, especially when Abraham spoke with and ate with Yahweh. This was clearly not a vision. Abraham saw Yahweh, yet no one has seen the Father. Either the Father is not Yahweh, or God is 1 being in at least 2 persons.
bsp256 5 months ago
The bible refers to the Son of God many times.If God has a son.What is the sons name?Matthew 3:16,17 answers that question clearly.Jesus prayed many times while on earth John17:3.Who was he praying to obviously a higher power Yahweh, Jehovah or many just call him God.More evidence is Jesus died as a man a human sacrifice for all.Almighty God is the source of all life.Can he die?The bible says no.Dont beleive me read for yourself.
313kaiser85 5 months ago
@313kaiser85 Your entire comment only shows that you have no understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. Furthermore, not a shred of it has anything to do with the video.
No one has seen the Father. People have seen Yahweh. What is your explanation of that? John's explanation of at least one instance is that Jesus is Yahweh (John 12:41).
bsp256 5 months ago
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Harold Camping was RIGHT about May 21, click on my channel to see...
youneekk 7 months ago
John 4:24 (King James Version) 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus/God is a Spirit the word Manufested in the flesh the second Adam
bleedingcry 9 months ago
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John 4:24 (King James Version) 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
bleedingcry 9 months ago
Very good!
abbyguy 9 months ago
Christ has come to me 7 times, awake too! Because I once cried and asked God to give me the Holy Spirit as I read and read .. and I woke up after three weeks of reading the Gospel and asking and having ZERO fun, ZERO music, TV, everything just to give God the time to see what happens, GUESS WHAT.. Jesus is REAL... and if YOU want proof... ASK for the HOLY SPIRIT from GOD in Jesus name WHILE you read the entire Gospel... and FINISH IT alone, till then, its your LAZINESS that keeps U from God!
JesusGaveMeNewSoul 1 year ago
@JesusGaveMeNewSoul When you say, "read the entire Gospel," what are you referring to? When Jesus came to you what did He tell you?
bsp256 1 year ago
also, you keep referring to "eternal hell" , most likely not knowing what that means, and you use it as though that is supposed to motivate people to go to church. if that is your motive, if you go to church because you dont want to go to hell, i got bad news for you, you are still going to go to hell since the motive to serve God HAS to be because you love Him .
pianokid100 3 years ago
What do I care whether people go to church? I want them to be born again. Are you born again, or are you a child of the devil?
bsp256 3 years ago
Nobody has seen God at any time . The Bible mentions people seeing Him but then later mention that they saw an angel . Jesus isnt God because He wasnt all knowing as he stated himself , he died, he prayed, he himself had God , he feared, he was born, he was human .
Also, there is a great difference between visions/manifestations and Jesus. God made himself visible at times, but they were manifestations . Kind David wasnt "born again" and was saved
pianokid100 3 years ago
People saw Yahweh/the LORD in Genesis 18 and other places, but no one has seen the Father.
Philippians 2:7 says Jesus made Himself nothing. If He made Himself nothing, what was He before? Do you think it would be possible for your God to join His creation?
David went to Abraham's Bosom to await Jesus' sacrifice, and then He was lead to heaven. All of the Old Testament prophets are in heaven, including David (Matt. 8:11, Luke 13:28).
I look forward to your response. Are you a JW?
bsp256 3 years ago
ORLY ?
acts 2:34
"For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,"
acts 2:29
"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
pianokid100 3 years ago
You need to read those verses in context. David was speaking prophetically of Jesus, and Peter was pointing out that those were Messianic prophecies of Jesus' resurrection, that weren't fulfilled in David's life. It has nothing to do with what you say.
David was a prophet (Acts 2:30). The prophets are in heaven. "...take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 8:11).
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in heaven, and so are the prophets (Luke 13:28).
bsp256 3 years ago
the Bible plainly says that david is buried and dead till this day, and this is written way after Jesus died and resurrected . sorry, but you lose . your whole theology is based on one parable and on pagan doctrines of immortal souls . David also said that when people die, they can no longer praise God or remember Him because there is no thought in the grave, but according to you, david was still fully aware and alive and conscious at death and thus he COULD remember God and praise him
pianokid100 3 years ago
You're pronouncing me wrong without answering the objections? In Acts 2:25-28/Psalm 16:8-11, David said, "...you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay." Peter explains that David wasn't speaking about himself, but about the Messiah to come.
David's body is in the grave, but his soul is in heaven with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. How do you explain Matthew 8:11?
bsp256 3 years ago
you must be new to Bible study. "nephesh" (soul) means "breathing creature" . David is no longer breathing and thus doesnt have a soul. When David was alive he WAS a soul. Animals are also referred to as souls in the Bible, yet you probably dont believe that animals have souls since you are the pamphlet stereotypical christian , i already know where you stan on 99 percent of the issues.
pianokid100 3 years ago
Can you provide an exegesis Matthew 8:11 and Luke 13:28 or not? It's Ok if you can't. There are plenty of puzzling scriptures. Just admit it, and try to find an explanation.
bsp256 3 years ago
both of these verses are saying that some people will not be allowed into the wedding , which takes pace at the end . so thus proves nothing. i dont even know what you meant to prove by this
pianokid100 3 years ago
Both of these verses say Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of heaven. This refutes everything the Watchtower teaches about only 144k in heaven, and only 144k being born again. Furthermore, Luke 13:28 says that the prophets are in heaven, which includes David, which is what we've been talking about for 2 days.
bsp256 3 years ago
1st. the verse is about a future event, so it doesnt prove that they are already in heaven.
2nd. even if Jesus wouldve taught that dead people continue being conscious, then believers of God wouldve had to not believe him since he would be contradicting scripture
3rd. what does the watch tower have to do with anything?
pianokid100 3 years ago
Telling someone they lose doesn't make it so. You should be searching for the truth, but you haven't responded to my objections.
If you're wrong about who Jesus is, you're going to spend eternity in hell. Please think this through and give a rational response.
bsp256 3 years ago
actually since i believe he died and rose from the dead and am baptized into his death , i am good since those are the requirements , but if YOU are wrong, you are an idolater and worship someone that isnt God. But if Jesus IS Yahweh of the Bible, which he cant be, then i would still be worshiping him since i worship the only One, the Most High God Yah . so if im wrong, it still doesnt matter, since i still meet the requirements and worship the real God, but if you are wrong, woe to you
pianokid100 3 years ago
Your reasoning is lacking.
If you don't worship Jesus, you aren't worshiping the correct God. If you don't believe Jesus is the I AM (ego eimi in Greek), you will die in your sins (John 8:24). Read it for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Do you have a Kingdom Interlinear?
bsp256 3 years ago
well "ego eimi" doesnt mean Yahweh or God. when i say " i am going to the store" i am not claiming ot be deity.Not only is God's name not I AM , but even if it was, it would only be His name if spoken in hebrew . Also, the response God gave to moses, more accurately translates ""I-shall-be that I-shall-be." not " I am". If jesus clamed he was Yahweh, they wouldnve killed him for claiming to be the son of God
pianokid100 3 years ago
When Jesus said, "Before Abraham was born, I AM" that sentence doesn't make any grammatical sense. When we use the term "I am" we follow it with a noun, verb or an adjective, be it express or implied. Jesus didn't do that, and what he said makes no sense other than the fact that He was claiming to be the I AM.
Ego eimi is the term used in the Septuagint, and Yahweh uses that term to describe Himself in more places than Exod 3. Jesus uses the term elsewhere as well.
bsp256 3 years ago
i already explained that "I AM" isnt even a proper translation and it should be " I shall be that i shall be" and even if it was translated "i am" Jesus didnt say "i am that i am" . Alot of people say "ego eimi" are they all god ? ALso, Jesus got killed for saying he was the son of God. Jesus never claimed to be God , live with it . and even if he wouldve, then he later died, thus proving he wasnt God
pianokid100 3 years ago
i worship the same one that your god Jesus, worshipped
pianokid100 3 years ago
I worship the same God that the angels worship at the Father's command (Hebrews 1:6).
bsp256 3 years ago
well, peopel "worshipped" david and solomon aswell, but back then, that didnt mean you thought they were deity . By "worship" i meant the way its used in this day and age, as in to revere as a God , not simple "to do reverence" as it meant . Your god Jesus said that the would make people that call themselves jews and are not, worship at my feet . its the same greek word as the one used in your "proof text" προσκυνησωσιν.
pianokid100 3 years ago
All these scriptures, by the way they are handled and taken account for, are obsolete (much less to submit an innocent child having nothing to do with it all to it.)
AAVista 3 years ago
I don't understand what you're getting at. Maybe you can rephrase your comment.
What are your spiritual beliefs? Are you an atheist, JW, Christian?
bsp256 3 years ago
Not everything in the Bible should be taking literally. Trinitarians are always taking things out of context.
The things that should be literal, they take as metaphors, The things that are metaphors they'll take as literal.
Just try and reason from the Scriptures, maybe things will make some sense.
epic103 3 years ago
How do you know you're not the one taking things out of context? If it's so obvious, you should be able to explain. If you're just shooting your mouth off, I'd appreciate you taking it someplace else.
Your credibility would go way up if you responded to the video. And I don't mean copying and pasting a Watchtower article. Put it in your own words.
bsp256 3 years ago
Holy! Twisting of the Scriptures Batman.
epic103 3 years ago
Who is twisting what Scripture? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
bsp256 3 years ago
Im not sure if there are websites regarding this but i went to a local library and dug deep. Search for "Tammuz symbol" or Tammuz ...and try to get alot of information...not just one source...
willhedoright 3 years ago
Tammuz, the false god, is mentioned in Ezekial Chapter 8... God said that in his house (2 Chronicles 2:1, destroyed by babylonians...restored by Cyrus thru Israelites (The book of Ezra) they mourn over the death of Tammuz, and had great detestable things inside his house and on gates and what not. This symbol, if you do research you might find it very interesting, was used in worship to Tammuz. But in Jehovah's law, Jehovah gave word concerning this (Exodus 20:4-6) ... "Tammuz Symbol"
willhedoright 3 years ago
Christians don't worship the cross. The cross may have been a pagan symbol, much like CT Russel's winged disc and the watchtower, but the Romans who executed Jesus were pagans. They wouldn't have hesitated to use a cross. There is a lot of medical, historical and biblical evidence for the cross.
The Watchtower depicts Jesus as having one nail through his hands, but the Bible says there were nails in his hands (John 20:25). With every picture they print, they're misrepresenting the Bible.
bsp256 3 years ago
Some people dont worship the cross, some people bow to it, some people give praise to it, some people give praise near it, some people just worship God with it.
But all in all, making a carved image and placing it in places of worship for people to bow or praise...
Some Christians dont worship the cross, im Christian but Jehovah's Witness.... wait im getting off topic lol
willhedoright 3 years ago
I agree that people do sinful things with the cross. Nevertheless, the Romans were pagan, and they wouldn't have any qualms crucifying Jesus using a pagan symbol.
Aren't you offended by the Watchtower misrepresenting the Bible by showing Jesus being crucified with one nail through his hands?
bsp256 3 years ago
I find that intresting, but not misrepresenting. Have you read the book "The Non-Christian Cross"? the author states the instrument used to kill Jesus, in the christian greek scriptures, is called stauros..which is an upright stake, pole or post. However, In John 20:25, it does say "nails" but keep in mind what was stated at deut 21:22, 23.. which paul quoted at Galatians 3:13, so would it be proper to display Jesus' death instrument, IN A PLACE OF WORSHIP or ANYWHERE, if it is a curse?
willhedoright 3 years ago
Misrepresentation means not represented accurately. If they show one nail in their illustrations, but the Bible says there were two nails, that is clearly a misrepresentation. Why doesn't that bother you?
bsp256 3 years ago
Galatians 3:13/Deut 21:22-23 is the whole point of the gospel. God Himself died the most humiliating death possible. The infinite wrath of God was poured out. Do you believe in a Jesus that is adequate to pay an infinite penalty? Does it make sense that the greatest act of love was not perforemed by Yahweh, but by His created being (John 15:13)?
It's clear that the message of the cross is foolishness to you (1 Cor. 1:18). May I never boast of anything except the cross of Christ (Gal 6:14)
bsp256 3 years ago
The cross still...is a pagan symbol..not may have been. God lets us know that it is detestable to his eyes (Ezek 8:14)....and we know, Jehovah hasnt changed...(Mal 3:6)...history proves that trees or wood was not abundant because they hardly grew in that land when Jesus was executed. Rather, Acts 5:30 tells us he hung on a stake, or tree. But that is not the case im making with you.. what im saying is that it is an idol too... and to have it in a place of worship is .... you tell me, what is it?
willhedoright 3 years ago
Why are you ignoring my questions? I've done my best to answer every single point you've discussed. I would ask the same in return.
Does it bother you that the Watchtower unrepentantly misrepresents the Bible every time they publish a picture with a single nail through both of Jesus' hands? Does it bother you that on the front of every Watchtower magazine is a pagan symbol or the books that Russell wrote all have pagan symbols (for Ra the Egyptian sun god) on them?
bsp256 3 years ago
No, im sorry, my daughter woke when i tried to respond..6 hrs later i press post comment and refresh the page and you have a comment already... but to answer this question... It doesnt bother me regarding our saviour Jesus because its not misrepresenting, and what pagan symbol is on EVERY watchtower?
willhedoright 3 years ago
The Watchtower is a Masonic symbol used to represent Mary Magdalene. It is also used in witchcraft to represent the four elements, invoked during ritual to cast the magic circle. I'd post the website this came from with pictures of idols with WTs on them, but I don't think Youtube will allow it.
Russell's 1914 books were the winged, sun disc appears: The Divine Plan of the Ages, The Time is at Hand, etc.
The question I was mainly referring to was: Are you a child of God or of the devil?
bsp256 3 years ago
Im a child of God, are you? If so, give me your thoughts on the two seeds, who are they, how did they orginate...etc.
As far as the Watchtower, i have no knowledge of these things as far as the "masonic symbol to represent mary magdalene", i would look it up in my own orginazation...(1 John 5:19) is why... but if my religion is false, its 99.9 percent truthful than any other religon.
willhedoright 3 years ago
I'm surprised by your answer. I have been reborn into God's family as His child. The WT teaches that only those who are born again (the 144k) are children of God. I can send you WT articles: g76 6/22 pp. 27-28 What Does It Mean to be "Born Again"? & g88 2/8 pp. 26-27 Who Are "Born Again"? if you don't have them.
I agree that only those who are born again are God's children (John 1:12-13, Romans 8:14-17) 1 John 3:10 says we're children of God or of the devil. There are no other possibilities.
bsp256 3 years ago
I'm not sure what you're referring to as far as the 2 seeds.
The Bereans were commended for verifying what Paul said (Acts 17:11). How much more should you verify what the WT says with the Bible?
I think this whole pagan symbol thing is silly. My point is that you need to be as critical of your organization as you are of outsiders. We shouldn't lower our guard for anyone but verify what everyone says with God's word (2 Tim. 2:15).
bsp256 3 years ago
Even if it was a torture stake, it is the symbol of the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:17, 18, Galatians 5:11, 6:12, 14, Eph. 2:16, Philippians 3:18, Colossians 2:14-15.
It is not a sin to have symbols in church. Church. I've never seen anyone worship a cross, but I'm not Catholic.
bsp256 3 years ago
1 Corinthians 1:17,18 says "the torture stake of the christ not be made useless" meaning, preach so that others can inherit everlasting life and so that his death is not in vain. As well as most of the other scriptures you posted, for his death should not be neglected. Again, can a household not be defiled by certain objects or images? Can a household not be cursed by these things? How about a land? Deut 21:22, 23 states ....
willhedoright 3 years ago
"And in case there comes to be in a man a sin deserving the sentence of death, and he has been put to death, and you have hung him upon a stake, his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day, because something "accursed" of God is the one hung up; and you must not "defile" your soil, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance." So why not a church or a home? The apostle paul stated in Galatians 3:13 ....
willhedoright 3 years ago
"Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: "Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.""
So is it apporpriate for this? We do not need images to self or group apperciate the ransom sacrifice of our lord. Especially when we know what God thinks of it (Ezek 8:14) (2 Cor 6:14-17) Babylon the Great(hcruhc), get out of her and her lies she teach people (Rev 18:4)(Proverbs Chapter 7)
willhedoright 3 years ago
Jesus said in John 8:24 "You will die in your sins if you do not believe that i am he" Jesus is the "SON OF GOD" so since i believe that, thats who he is, i have a chance to be resurrected and not die in my sins. But to continue with JOHN CHAPTER 8, in verse 26 he says "he that sent me is true"... JESUS WAS SENT by whom? Verse 27 acknowledges it is the FATHER who has sent him. Again, How is Jesus God ALMIGHTY?
willhedoright 3 years ago
Again, Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. How does one person submitting themselves to another make them an inferior being?
There is only one God. Jesus cannot be a god, for that would mean there are two gods. If you believe the NWT verson of John 1:1, you are a polytheist, and you can't even reconcile the first commandment.
bsp256 3 years ago
1 Cor 8:5, 6 states "For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."
This clearly gives evidence who the TRUE GOD is, however there are many gods. Jesus is a MIGHTY GOD, however ALMIGHTY he is not.
willhedoright 3 years ago
1 Cor. 8:4 says there is only one God, and the idols are nothing. My car could become my idol god, but it doesn't posess divinity. There are dozens of verses that say there is only one God, and the polytheism you espouse is the hallmark of paganism.
There is one Lord, the Father (Deut 10:17), and the Son (1 Cor 8:6). There is one God, the Father (John 17:3), and the Son (John 20:28). Why do you deny the Lordship of the Father?
I believe the Father is the Mighty God (Isaiah 10:21).
bsp256 3 years ago
Wait what! JW's dont believe in many gods. We believe and worship only one true GOD, JEHOVAH. The thing is we know there are many gods however, only one TRue...THAT WE WORSHIP. We give praise only to JEHOVAH. We acknowledge and RESPECT Jehovah's son, JESUS CHRIST ransom sacrifice for all mankind. Im sorry, i get so offended when people "believe" witnesses of Jehovah worship many Gods...or they deny Christ...thats all lies. What you say is true regarding making television, cars, games, etc a god.
willhedoright 3 years ago
"JW's dont believe in many gods...The thing is we know there are many gods..."
???
fairwhether1 3 years ago
Furthermore, because we acknowledge there are many gods, does not mean we worship them..for example, you may already know Satan is considered a god (2 cor 4:4, 1 john 5:19) who rules this world but there is one Soverign LORD/GOD, Jehovah(the father)(Ex 6:3, Psalms 83:18, Isaiah 12:2 KJV) who we worship, and there is one Lord, Christ Jesus (the son) who we apperciate for the repurchase of all mankind.
What is confusing is you say we deny the LORDSHIP of the father, when that is who we worship
willhedoright 3 years ago
Whats even more confusing is that John 17:3 says (to some extent) "This means everlasting life, taking in the knowledge of the only true GOD, and the one who you sent forth, Jesus Christ" To those who are trinitarian(that dont realize that polytheism is what they portray) I ask, How can Jesus, send Jesus? for it says "everlasting life means taking in the knowledge of the True GOD, "AND" the one "YOU SENT FORTH", JESUS CHRIST"... Then ISAIAH 10:21 relates back to the first prophecy (GEN 3:15)
willhedoright 3 years ago
John 17:3 NWT is further evidence of your paganism. The purpose of gnosticism, and the occult is to take in knowledge.
The Bible speaks of knowing God and being known by Him-not gaining knowledge.
You don't understand the Trinity. The Father and the Son aren't the same. They're distinct. The Father sent Jesus. This is consistent with the Trinity.
Isaiah 10 refers to Yahweh as the Mighty God. Isaiah 9 refers to Jesus as the Mighty God. Why isn't Isaiah a blasphemer in your mind?
bsp256 3 years ago
In Isaiah 10:21, This Mighty God, is Jesus Christ. Not Jehovah God. For Jehovah is ALMIGHTY. Did Jesus not descend from Jacob? (Matthew 1:2, 16) Was he not the remnant or "second adam" of Israel ?(isaiah 65:9) Was he not foretold by Jehovah as his seed in the first prophecy and theme of the bible? (Gen 3:15)
willhedoright 3 years ago
Even if you say Yahweh isn't the Mighty God in Isaiah 10, He is referred to as the Mighty God many times. Joshua 22:22, Job 36:5, Psalm 50:1, Luke 22:69, etc. There is only one Mighty God. I find it silly to argue with someone who pretends to believe the Bible that there is more than one Mighty God.
bsp256 3 years ago
I don't know whether you're planning on continuing the conversation, but I hope that you won't give up on me with the excuse that you don't want to cast pearls before swine. The Bible describes a reasonable and logical faith, and if your faith doesn't stand up to scrutiny, we know that it's wrong.
I'd love to hear back from you with some reasonable explanation of how Abraham saw Yahweh, but no one has seen the Father, or any other topic you'd like to discuss.
bsp256 3 years ago
Nah, i was just tied up with family life... Got a 8 month old daughter. So if im two or three days with no response, dont worry, i'll eventually see your message and respond. May i ask what religion are you? Because the bible does speak of faith, and also the bible speaks of religion. Throughout every book of the bible, God plainly describes how he should be worshiped. Are you familiar with the false god Tammuz and his symbols or images?
willhedoright 3 years ago
I'm a born again Christian.
I'm not familiar with Tammuz. You can give me a website to look at if you like.
bsp256 3 years ago
Aww i see, born again Non-denominational?
willhedoright 3 years ago
Yes. One of those crazy people who has been born again into the family of God as an adopted child (John 1:12-13). Have you been reborn as a child of God or do you remain a child of the devil (1 John 3:10)?
The only reasonable JW response I've heard to that arguent is that they had the same hope as Old Testament believers. But that argument failed when I pointed out that they're in heaven (Matthew 8:11, Luke 13:28), not paradise earth.
bsp256 3 years ago
Well remember "everyone" who lived before Christ came to earth as a sacrifice, never had the chance to goto heaven. Matthew 8:11 & Luke 13:28 states they will have a chance to recline at the table with Abraham...etc...in the "Kingdom of Heaven"... that does not mean they are in Heaven... Remember OUR LORDS PRAYER? Let your kingdom come...Let your will be done on earth and heaven. That Kingdom establishes itself on earth as well... But back to the Christ. Before him deathruled as king.....
willhedoright 3 years ago
But because of Jehovah's underserved kindness he gave his son to the world to repurchase us from death, so that many can have an opportunity to live in a world free from sin (Ps 37:11). God's original purpose was for man to take care of and live forever on the earth, not to live..die..then goto heaven (Gen 1:28). Jesus also opened the door for mankind to have an opportunity to rule as kings and preist in heaven, but only 144,000 (Rev 7:4)....read ROMANS 5:12 to CHapter 6...
willhedoright 3 years ago
Without being born again, you will not see the kindgom of God (John 3:3). I'll go with your definition of the kingdom, but that means you're not going to paradise earth (God's kingdom) without being born again.
Old Testament believers went to Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22) until after Christ's sacrifice.
bsp256 3 years ago
Again, How can anyone goto Heaven before Jesus came to earth, and returned to Heaven(John 3:13)? That repurchase (Ephes. 1:7) wasnt established.
willhedoright 3 years ago
I agree. They went to Abraham's bosom, which is the paradise portion of Hades. After Jesus' resurrection, He led captives in his train to heaven (Eph. 4:8-11, Ps 68:18). Those people appeared to many (Matt 27:50-53), Jesus proclaimed the gospel to them (1 Peter 3:18-19), and even the thief on the cross was going to be with Jesus that day in paradise (Luke 23:43).
So, are you a child of God, or a child of the devil?
bsp256 3 years ago
The fact that, THE FATHER IS GOD, THE SON IS JESUS.... its misleading to believe that Jesus, our saviour, the means for us to be resurrected into paradise, is GOD. If that was the case, Those who support the very idea would be in a sense saying... "Jesus is God, however the father is Greater than Jesus. THUS saying, GOD HAS SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIM"....WHICH WE ALL KNOW TO BE MISLEADING SO.... STICK WITH TRUTH.
JEHOVAH IS GOD
JESUS IS GOD's SON
PEACE!
willhedoright 3 years ago
If Jesus is not God, I am an idolater (and so are the angels in Hebrews 1:6, and everyone in heaven in Revelation 5:11-14). If Jesus is God, and you deny His position, you are an antichrist (1 John 2:22, 4:3). If you don't have a proper understanding of who Jesus is, you will die in your sins (John 8:24).
Do you think you're a good person?
bsp256 3 years ago
he pleaded with God saying in Ex 33:18, please cause me to see your "Glory" (meaning LET ME SEE YOU) but in verse 20 he gives his answer. Numbers 12:6-8 you gave your own answer to Abraham's vision of God in verse 6. However, Moses still did not see God, he saw a thick cloudy gloom and not Glory.....
I think i get why so many are confused about this... Isaiah 6:1.. Isaiah was given a vision, "IN A DREAM"... No man has seen God, in a PHYSICAL SENSE. John 6:46 well yes, we agree except on....
willhedoright 3 years ago
Thanks for responding to this video. It's taken JWs months to respond, and I appreciate the time you've taken.
bsp256 3 years ago
Abraham did not see Jehovah directly (Ex 33:20) Jehovah may have appeared to him in a dream, with a supernatural display of glory or by means of an angelic messenger or representative. (Compare Genesis 18:1-3, 28:10-15...with Leviticus 9:4, 6, 23, 24) When Jehovah appeared to Moses, his glory was o so magnificent that in Exodus 24:1, they bow down from a distance.. but in verse 11 "they got a vision" thus not clearly seeing him. Moses was greater than those in verse 1 of chapter 24, and yet...
willhedoright 3 years ago
The Bible tells us when someone seeing God is a dream (Genesis 28:12). When someone actually sees Yahweh, it says so (Isaiah 6:5 Genesis 18:1). Anyone reading Genesis 18 without an agenda knows that Yahweh walked, talked and ate with Abraham face to face. To deny it is to twist the Bible to fit your ideas. You must be honest and let God's word inform your views, not the other way around.
bsp256 3 years ago
So are we to ignore certain scriptures and only apply scriptures to fit our ideas? Are we to look at Exodus 33:20 and say that it doesnt apply, or God is a lie, because we know for a fact that Jehovah was "literally seen" walking, talking, and eating with Abraham? ...never may that be. Jehovah is not man so that he lies (Numbers 23:19), however, he is righteous and Good. Jesus himself said to a certain man. "Why do you call me good? No one is good except one, GOD" (Luke 18:18-19)
willhedoright 3 years ago
There you go again. You're forcing your interpretation on Genesis 18 because of your presuppositions. Yahweh walked, talked and ate with Abraham, and you are unable to even cope with what the Bible says. It's obvious that you can't reconcile your beliefs with the Bible. Does that mean you stubbornly persist in forcing your beliefs on the Bible? Humble yourself and submit yourself to the clear teaching of the Bible.
bsp256 3 years ago
""Why do you call me good? No one is good except one, GOD" (Luke 18:18-19)"
willhe, is Jesus good?
fairwhether1 3 years ago
Are you familiar with the account of Jesus and the army officer? (Luke Chapter 7) Well the officer slave was sick and the officer felt he was not worthy to have Jesus in his home. In verse 8, he similarly dipicted Jesus' position to Jehovah God. He said "I too am a man placed under authority(Jesus under Jehovah's soverign), having soldiers(Higher than Angels but commanding them) under me..... In response Jesus goes on to say "I tell you, Not even in Israel have I found so great a faith"
willhedoright 3 years ago
If I submit myself to my employer, and do what he tells me to do, does that mean he is a superior being? He is human; I am human, and we are equal. Jesus submits to His Father, but that doesn't mean they aren't equal. In fact, they are equal (John 5:18). Matthew 23:11 says the servant is the greatest among us.
bsp256 3 years ago
my brother, equal in soverignty? John 14:28 Jesus states the Father being GREATER than him. Greater how? John 20:17 Jesus states "I am ascending to my Father, and your Father, to "MY GOD" and your God. If Jesus is God, does that mean that Jesus has a head or a God that he worships? 1 Cor. 11:3 states "The head of every man is Christ.. the head of Christ is God"
willhedoright 3 years ago
Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. He willingly submits to the Father. You're going to have to explain why one person submitting to another makes that person an inferior being.
bsp256 3 years ago
1 Cor 15:25-28: For he(JESUS) must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] "subjected all things under his(JESUS) feet." But when he says that 'all things have been subjected,' it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.
willhedoright 3 years ago
I've noticed that you approach the Scriptures with a lot of presuppositions. You should let the Bible speak for itself, rather than interpreting it through your presuppositions.
bsp256 3 years ago
Verse 28 continue: But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
willhedoright 3 years ago
"But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
Is Jesus not already subjected (v.27)? So then, why does scripture say in v.28 "*then* the Son himself will be made subject to him"?
fairwhether1 3 years ago
dude this is deep!! Good work may The LORD bless you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you something else you know that?! lol to all the readers Christ is LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sraxone 3 years ago
I just found something else interesting. Who did Isaiah see in Isaiah 6? He saw the LORD Almighty (Jehovah) being worshipped by angels. In John 12:38-41, John quotes Isaiah 6, and says Isaiah saw Jesus in verse 41.
bsp256 4 years ago
he saw of jehovah not his exact apperance
swikmasta 4 years ago
Isaiah saw Jehovah in Isaiah 6. In John 12:41, it says he saw Jesus.
Abrahm didn't just see of Jehovah. He ate with and talked with Jehovah. You should read Genesis 18, and be honest with yourself. Your eternity depends on it.
bsp256 4 years ago
Very well presented arguments. Also, look in 2 Tim 1:9, where Paul states, that Christ existed before Time began. Cant be much clearer than that.
However, when you speak of Eternal Hell, do you mean eternal torment? If so, consider John 3:16.
God Bless.
Mekelsior 4 years ago
Thanks for 2 Tim. 1:9, and your comment.
I don't understand how John 3:16 goes against the accepted Christian doctrine of eternal torment. Eternal hell is found in Daniel 12:2, 2 Thess 1:8-9, Rev 14:11, etc. Hell is a result of God's holiness and justice. It also shows the magnitude of Jesus' sacrifice.
Can you explain what you mean?
bsp256 4 years ago
The Doctrine of everlasting torment, depends on us humans, having a natural immortality. John 3:16, tells us, however, that Immortality is a gift from God, IF we believe in Him. It also states, that the wicked, will perish, that is be destroyed. 1 tim 1:17 and 1 tim 6:15-17, further states, that God is the only Immortal, meaning that the dead, sleep in their graves, until the ressurection. 1 thes 4:13-18.
Mekelsior 4 years ago
Dan 12:2, does not say everlasting torment, but contempt or aversion. 2 thes 1:8-9, mentiones everlasting destruction. Rev 14:11 is indeed interesting, requires a longer study to understand those parts. However, Rev 21:4 "No more pain, sorrow, tears.." I believe, Jeremiah spoke of an unquenceble fire, that stopped to burn, sodom and gomorra is good examples of eternal fire aswell, burned until everything was gone.
Mekelsior 4 years ago
Good video brother! Thanks for the time and study you have put it with this.
Shazoolo 4 years ago