Added: 3 years ago
From: broadsurf
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  • The modern Siamese looks nothing like the Siamese cats you see in Thailand.

  • แมวไทยวิเชียรมาศ น่ารักที่สุดในโลก

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  • As far as I am concerned its all in your personal taste, because the cat is the same in every body type. I personally like what is seen in the show hall now a days and have breed/showed in CFA to that type. But I started out years ago with the less typey look. I've had Siamese in my home for 42 years consistently. I now have one Oriental shorthair, one Colorpoint shorthair and a Siamese. No matter the color or body type they are all the same to me...wonderful, personable, loving cats. :-)

  • the really skinny ones are so ugly why would they ever breed them like that it doesnt even look like a cat anymore, the ones that are normal cat shaped look so much better

  • Sorry for double post.

    Remember in this photo of Tiam O'Shian IV he is sitting rather hunched up. and he's also a stud male with jowls. . There was a range of body type in the original Siamese imports and IMO the TICA Thai is within that range . I think the breeders (& I'm not one of them) studied the entire collection of early photos and descriptions, plus comments of cat fanciers who visited Thailand in the mid 20th century, plus the way the cats still look there today.

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  • @clevii what makes you so sure about the assumption that "wichien maats" are "the original" unaltered siamese. Maybe it is just a customary name for pointed, shorthair cats in that region. Has wichien maat been registered in any kind of cat registry before thai cats appeared. If so, how restrictively have wichien maats been breed in order to protect them from mixing with local moggies?

  • @theTeabag No there wasnt a registry in Siam/ Thailand . There are accounts that Wichien Maats were bred by upper class people there. But yes that is a term used for colorpoint cats & there were/are also random bred ones. The cats that became the foundation of the Siamese breed may have come from both. Similar issues of how one defines a breed would apply to any of the "natural breeds" . For photos of cats there both breeders' & moggies search "Native Siamese Cats Today" on Sarsenstone site

  • @clevii so basically the Thai cat is not exactly the old type true Siamese as initially intended but rather a mix of less extreme Siamese cats with colorpoint moggies fom thailand. I wonder how many (proportionally) Siamese and how many Wichien-Moggies were used to create the Thai.

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  • You raised a good point earlier that we don't know 100% how all the Wichien Maats imported to the West in the 19th & early 20th centuries compare to Wichien-Maats today . But there's been no pressure for the cats in Thailand to greatly change shape, & we can compare the collection of 1800s-1930s photos (unfortunately often front views that tend to flatten features -compare the 2 different photos of Champion Wankee) + early descriptions, such as the marten-like muzzle & long flat forehead. 

  • @theTeabag, Most of the TICA Thais are Siamese with pedigrees back to the 19th century, from lines that have not been bred to the more extreme conformation. There havent been a lot brought from Thailand, it's difficult & expensive; i think all but 2 were from established Thai breeders not "Wichien Moggies" LOL (BTW some of the 19th century foundation Siamese were bought from street vendors!.) The sire of the cat in the photo w/ purple BG is from the ChiangMai cattery of Ed & Malee Rose .

  • @clevii you write about the "established Thai breeders" but is there any local cat registry in Thailand where breeds have their names like in the West and most importantly you can trace individual cat's history many decades back? Is the ancestry investigated at all before allowing these cats into the Thai breed?

    my point is that the thai is a newly created mish-mash rather than what many breeders originally hoped it to be.

  • on the other hand you've got an organisation like "The Traditional Cat Association" which was supposed to protect these true lineages but I read that the greedy woman running it cares only about money and accepts cats in based solely on a photo. What a missed opportunity, isn it :( ? The worst thing is that she copyrights everything she can to prevent breeders with good intentions from doing the real work :(

  • @theTeabag No, they don't really have a functional registry in Thailand and i do wish they did. But neither was there a registry there when people started importing Wichien Maats to the UK in the 19th century. I think it is wildly exaggerating to call these cats a newly created mish-mash because of the inclusion of a few cats from Thailand who meet the standard, in order to expand a narrow gene pool.. It's not the same as using Western moggies with cobby bodies & double coats.

  • @clevii Wikipedia says: "The preferred Thai cat is 100% imported from Thailand" - this goes way beyond importing just "a few cats" to "expand a narrow gene pool". I bet this is not what the enthusiasts of old-style Siamese cat hoped for.

  • that IS way beyond! But that's not in the standard. It really says: "The ideal cat of this breed is a medium to slightly large, pointed cat of foreign type, descended from and resembling the indigenous pointed cats of Thailand" IOW the old type of Siamese. The imports really ARE just a few. The first Thai Supreme Grand Champion is 100% from old Western Siamese lines & is dual registered as Siamese . (my own cat ) My feelings re TICA Thai have much changed from when i first heard abt it.

  • @clevii how do you know the imports are just a few?How did you check this?

    Enthusiast of non-extreme siamese cats wanted to preserve their lineages - not to replace them. You might say colorpoints from thailand are the closest relatives but in fact 100 years of selective breeding in the West for traits other than just phenotype will be thrown away into the rubbish as the outcross progresses. don't get me wrong, thai may be the cutest creatures ever but it'll no longer be a Siamese cat.

  • @theTeabag I know about the imports because a year ago I finally decided to join PREOSSIA, the breed club that got the TICA Thai to championship and I've been pretty active, showing a Thai and meeting people & talking & have heard a lot about peoples cats. Re things besides phenotype, if you mean the famous personality & intelligence, I find there is a great emphasis on that. And they want the deeper blue eyes that Western breeders have selected for - that's in the standard.

  • @clevii are there any official statistics availble on the net?

  • BTW do "wichien-maats" get their pedigrees right away or do they have to wait 5 generations like it's done in other breeds?

  • I don't see it as replacing them at all but if you see it that way i can absolutely understand your passion about it because I too so much want them preserved. The people I have met who are involved in this do value that century of breeding & don t want to throw it out but want to preserve the old with some addition of genes from the original source b/c there's not a large population of authentic moderate Siamese.

    What traits do you think will be "thrown away into the rubbish" ?

  • @clevii for example the tame attitude. Western Siamese cats have undergone tougher selection for a domestic disposition than their stray counterparts in thailand.

  • @theTeabag And that human-oriented, social attitude is a crucial trait of the Siamese AND TICA Thai. (Read TICA Thai breed intro) There is no mass import of Thai strays going on. No mass anything but the Thai imports were almost all tame cats from breeders. The 2 cats of unknown origin I mentioned were living in someone's garden & are now at breeders on 2 continents. 1 in US & I hear he is super cuddly. He's just sired 2 litters ( they hope to get 1 or 2 breeding cats) & is being neutered.

  • @clevii BTW why are You deleting Your posts?

  • @theTeabag re post deletions The other day I accidentally posted 2 of the same post, ( For some reason it seemed like it didnt post so i try again and then the original one appears too.) I discovered that one could delete a post, so I deleted one. Then tonight looking at this thread I realised there were still 3 identical posts I had made a while ago when the same thing happened so I deleted 2 of them. I wasnt deleting things that there aren't still a copy of here.

  • @theTeabag part 2 For Natural Breeds non-pedigreed cats can be registered as the breed if they're from the region of origin AND meet the breed standard.

    10 yrs ago, before TICA accepted the Thai, 3 TICA Allbreed judges (incl a Siamese breeder), examined 2 imported Wichien Maats & allowed them to be registered as Siamese. One commented "They couldnt be anything BUT Siamese" & not long ago, CFA's Burmese Breed Council voted to register an imported Suphalak from Thailand as a Burmese.

  • @theTeabag pt 3 Breeders using a few imports from Thailand to add genetic diversity to the old style Siamese are in a way following in the footsteps of early Siamese breeders. Was Ch.Prestwick Perak any less a lovely example of a Siamese because her dam Puteh was a non-pedigreed import? But it is CRUCIAL to make a distinction between Wichien-maats, even Wichien-moggies & pointed Western moggies like one can register in TCA as "Traditional Siamese" w/ a photo and money

  • i have the apple head that is the earliest Siamese

  • Yes-I had a traditional at age 9 and bought a Modern at age 39 and breed Siamese.Major Tom owned by Valda McDermott was my last stud.He is more in line with traditionals and produces beautiful kittens.He is classified as a sealpoint siamese BY NSWCFA.Nothing else.

  • @katinasvenska yes seal point was the kind we had he was so nice lived to be 18 but by then his hair had turned greyish and he was blind from cataracts like a very old man, have heard some live upto 25

  • I have a modern siamese and could not understand why it looked different to the one i bought at age 39-I know now

  • modern siamese cat is so ugly, the traditional siamese "applehead" look so much nicer

  • @rostant999 I dont think that they are ugly at all. why do you think that?

  • @IcyHot311 we had an applehead simaese cat the more natural looking type and he looked a lot better, this newer breeder version is so scrawny, almost like that cat in the austin power's movie. do you have one of these newer type siamese cats?

  • @rostant999 yeah i have a newer siamese cat. they are pretty skinny and stuff, but he is really healthy and strong. they arent "scrawny". I think all siamese cats are beautiful.

  • This is all confusing.

    TICA renamed Siamese cat to "Thai cat" and encourages outrcrossing them to "indigenous pointed cats from Thailand to preserve a healthy gene pool". I wonder what are these "indigenous pointed cats".

    On the other hand we have TCA governed by eccentric person who introduced 2 new breeds:

    -the Traditional Siamese and

    -Classic Siamese

  • It is confusing because the cat fancy has totally messed it up. They bred super skinny Siamese cats (modern Siamese) and then refusing to recognise the traditional appearance they decided to breed something in between. The Thai cat is in between the traditional and the modern in my view. Thai cat breeders say that their cat is the way the cat looked in Siam. I say it is not.

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  • I've found out You wrote informative articles about the issue.

  • well i am thai and siamese cat is from my country and we call it Vichianmart...many cat breeds are from thailand...siamese cat can find in the hight moutain here especially in the north...and the siamese kitten i have it' was born from the mother cat which is not siamnese.siamese blood is deep in the nomal thai cat breeding

  • I have the traditional and she is the best cat we ever owned.

  • "Thai Cat"? You have got to be kidding, F that S, there is no way I'm not calling a REAL Siamese a Siamese. Breeders are idiots, leave it to humans to ruin all kinds of cat and dog breeds, causing them medical problems, etc., in the name of fame, money, prestige, and snobbery.

  • Very informative video, thanks for posting.

  • There are several variations, apple head, wedge head, traditional, modern..blah, blah...4 recognized colors in the CFA..Seal, Chocolate, Blue & Lilac or Frost Points...one of the oldest breeds in recorded history dating back to the "Cat Book of Poems" in the 12th. century...great cats, lots of "chi".

  • Don't 4get lynx point.

  • Wow... my Burmese looks very much like the traditional ones here, especially the one on 2.31.

    I prefer this look - if the South East Asian cats had "naturally" through evolution come to the look of the "modern Siamese", I d like their look. However the breeding into extremes has a Frankenstein component to me. I do believe hereditary illnesses are willingly accepted for ambition and success reasons. That is cruel.

    And keeping the traditionally Siamese cat away from the public eye is a shame!!

  • me 2

  • Thank you so much for posting this video. Not many people realize the change show breeders have caused in the Siamese cat.  I love traditional siamese and I hope this video will educate people about the Thai cat.

  • the classic one that u call Siamese cat(this one in disney cartoon) in thai we call "VICHIANMART" and the "thai cat" the grey one, we call "SEE SAWARD"

  • what do u mean by "siamese cat" look alike "thai cat" its the same thing. Siam = thailand, so siamese cat = thai cat

  • ya but apparently cat breeder establishment has not allowed the more naturally looking cats to run under "Siamese". They want their own creation (the very skinny artificial looking) to be the standard for the breed "Siamese".

    Probably has to do with money and power circles within breeder associations and competitions.

    So they artificially created a split with a name change that makes no sense, as the video uploader suggested anyway.. a "compromise" with the breeder establishment I guess.

  • It wasn't an evolution but rather a human engineered mutation.

  • @staghammer

    Humans tend to mess everything up with their strange preference of appearance on animals. Why not just leave them be the way nature made them in the first place! The old fashioned siamese cat is a really beautiful and natural looking cat. It was ruined by stupid people who made it look "weird" and less like the beautiful cat it originally was over the years. I would get an old type siamese, but they are very hard to find anywhere.

  • @staghammer I agree it they didnt naturally evolve like this it was all humans breeding them like that. but i wouldnt call it a mutation because they are still beautiful.

  • Thank you for this video~ I too have a traditional Siamese as part of our family. We were fortunate to find her and have her. To think she was abandon as a kitten of only a few weeks

  • very nice! :)

  • Thanks for the comment. The history of the Siamese cat is contentious and disputed but I am sure that I am correct. Sorry about the voice!

  • There's not wrong with the voice. I've always liked Siamese cats--and even Thai cats too. :)

    Good job!

  • Thanks for the comment. Appreciated

  • Very interesting seeing the evolution of the breed! 5*****

  • Thanks for the info.

  • My pleasure. Thanks for the early comment.

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