"He" did NOT pick an awkward place. Guys instinctually get chicks alone because it improves their chances. How many blokes go up to a girl and hit on them IN FRONT OF ALL HER girlfriends? None I know of... except overly brash idiots. Most guys try to engage a woman more personally because it improves their chances. I guess following evolution, human social evolution is now sexist.
No, RW is shit; plain and simple. She is a manipulative cunt. Tons of people inside the atheist community have sounded off on this "incident", BUT if any of them had any idea what this Skep"chick" is really doing... Every time I turn around she has a problem with a man (Brian Dunning)... Every time! Maybe she made up the whole elevator incident? Not to mention, there are a huge amount of women in the atheist community who have denounced her crap. She is a misandrist. Yes, she is. She hates men!
You sum it up so perfectly. I found my own way to handle with that issue: every time I see a woman, I run away screaming. Problem solved, no more charges since. Though now I scream a lot.
They use men's desire for sex to get ahead ...then try and hide all evidence of it. I pretty much agree here. Though Dawkins comment wasn't defending the guy so much as telling her to have some fucking context.
I don't even see why you SHOULD view someone as a 'whole human being' if all you want from them is sex... that's like viewing the chicken as a 'whole chicken being' when all we want is the meat. Why lie about it =/
One of my best friends actually epitomizes what you're talking about with being charming enough or attractive enough to get away with something your "average" guy would NEVER pull off.
The perspective given in this video mirrors that provided by Islam, namely that human nature boils down to the genitalia. In reality our power to control our impulses is absolute if we wish to exercise it. SolRosenberg84, being an atheist, does not realise this. Mohammed, whose licentiousness is a matter of public record, probably did realise but was too morally debased to do anything about it.
Sex is like comedy. Good comedy and bad comedy both come from the same place: trying to be funny. Well effective come-ons and creepy come-ons both come from the same place: trying to get some. If you swing, eventually you're going to strike out. Feminists want us all in the dugout, politely awaiting permission to come out and play.
Yeah, I hate to break it to a lot of feminists. Guys are sexualizing us from the time we leave the house to the time we get home (and sometimes later) without us even realizing it. Get over it.
I once had a male friend tell me that a guy doesn't waste their time getting platonically friendly with a woman unless he thinks she's fuckable.
All that said, that guy would have creeped me out, too. But I wouldn't have complained about being "sexualized". That's retarded.
@GodlessGirI "I once had a male friend tell me that a guy doesn't waste their time getting platonically friendly with a woman unless he thinks she's fuckable." well, that's not true. that guy may think that way, but he should speak for himself, not all men.
From what I gather, Dawkins is the one who started this mess by making an unnecessary comment about Muslima getting it worse than western women, in regards to Watson relating her experience in an elevator and her personal feelings regarding it. What Dawkins said may be true, but it's also akin to saying that people should not fight flu, beause there is AIDS. And that's simply ridiculous. It's only after this remark, that Watson blew up and made her comment about sexualization.
@SonnyGoten89 Yeah I agree that Dawkins point might have been better constructed but calling this sexualizing is like calling separate toilets sexism. Its a total non issue. I think that is what Dawkins tried to illustrate in his point.
@philateliceun I thought her reply with the whole sexualizing-thing (which was a bit overboard) was a REPLY to Dawkins's comment about Muslima (which was ridiculous to begin with), not the other way around.
Sex (and sexualizing) exists. Men and women address the issues of sex differently perhaps, but the sexualizing of the social situation should not constitute offensive behavior.
If someone proposes a sexual tryst, you can say "yes" or "no". The problem is if the person insists in spite of a clear "no". The proposition does not constitute an offense.
I think I've figured out the moral of this story.
Thesis: women shouldn't be sexually harassed.
Antithesis: what about hot men?
Synthesis: only objectify women when you can get away with it. If you're hot and can dismiss women but still make them swoon for you, no harm done, but if you're not, know that there's a natural female reaction for awkward male behavior: fear of rape. I know it's hierarchical and cruel, but men should simply know their limits. If you don't like it, learn some game.
A human being is by definition a sexual object; its a factor of our evolution.
Watson fails to understand the fundamental of human nature, as I've said it to many conservatives and neo-feminists past: people be fuckin'! She has a vagina, the guy (presumebly) had a penis. It's how it works; if she takes a situation like this--awkward as it is--to be such an extreme indicator of sexist piggery, then it makes me wonder how she ever gets intimate (and all of this is coming from a male feminist).
@AndrewTheEternal An asexual human being is still "designed" to be sexually attractive to other human beings, and will be seen as a sexual object by others, regardless of the innate sexuality of that particular person.
I'd also like to clarify what I mean by "object": an object is a corporeal thing that can be observed, not just a term for something that is an inanimate physical thing, and it is not necessarily devoid of innate animated qualities such as a mind and emotions.
Good-looking people often do have an unfair advantage in many circumstances. However, even if he looked like George Clooney, most sensible women would accurately surmise that a man who hit on them in an elevator at 4:30am was (a) socially inept or totally insensitive, (b) drunk or high, (c) making a last ditch play after being repeatedly turned down by women all evening, (c) a creep who was up to no good, or (e) all of the above. Gorgeous or homely, such a guy is obviously a bad risk.
WAIT ONE MINUTE!!! What about groupie women that chase and grab after male rock and movie stars trying to have sex with them? Why doesn't anyone talk about that? Is it okay for women to behave in this manner towards men??
First off, is this whole thing being blown out of proportion? Yes, imo. However with that said, RW has blogged in the past about sexism in the atheist/freethinking community like being interrupted, talked over, or having her looks discussed instead of the topic she was discussing. She has also been PM'd/e-mailed w/ threats of rape, esp. if she talks about women's issues. I doubt she rejected him b/c of his looks. More like propositioning her in an enclosed space w/ no egress.
if an ugly guys tries to hit on a girl at a bar they call him creepy and weird and are mean and rude and no one gives a shit. an ugly girl tries to hit on a guy and he says he's not interested, girls call him a shallow asshole.
I am a male. I have genitals which are made for reproduction so that the human race can survive, therefore somewhere in my mind I have the desire to have sex. I may have different parts than a female, but they are both meant for the same purpose. To say that a female never has a desire for sex, by that logic, is to say that she has no sexual organs or hormones, lol.
Modern day feminism is all about seeing men as a threat, so of course a guy talking to a feminist on an elevator is "sexualizing" her. :P Yes, there are men who rape and/or sexually assault us, but Ms Watson is so far up her ass just like all other radical feminists.
Watson and this guy had been drinking together in the bar for several hours (admittedly as part of a larger group) and had walked to the elevator together.
The issue that both you and Dawkins don't get is that women in the skeptical community are few and far between because as soon as a woman tries to join a skeptic group she gets hit on and sexualized. This scares them away or turns them off keeping the sex disparity between men and women high. Her opinions are no longer viewed the same way because she has tits. Watson has been championing this for a while. Dawkins doesn't know the whole story and made a joke and now is confused at the anger
But what *exactly* is she championing? "Don't, not even politely and respectfully, hit on kindred-spirited, like-minded women who's intelligence and sense of humor you admire, who you share similar interests and philosophical views with, who spend their private time in the same setting - no, hit on the random girl in the street - or else you're an objectifying, sexualizing creep"?
And also, is there any evidence that *this* is the reason why women are underrepresented here?
@NoNiceNameFound The elevator guy was just a hint of advice. She wasn't mad at him at all. The issue actually dug up another incident where a skeptical group with a panel of mostly men, shouted mockingly belittled a woman who had problems and talked to other women who had problems with sexism in the skeptical community. This skeptic group actually had a bet running on who could nail one of their fellow skeptics first. Their is residual emotion from that that Watson that Dawkin is unaware
@anubis2814 And by nail it was a guys only bet. I do think Watson over-reacted, but there is an actual problem with sexism in some skeptical communities.
I agree with all you say there, but here is my take: I'm subbed to rkwatson, skepchick and SGU. But I have to say that Watson seems to have descended into this brand of (ironically totally non-sceptical, dogmatic and unfalsifiable) feminism where everything is (hidden?) misogyny, it's really sad. The way she pushes her agenda grew more annoying over time imho and has now reached the level were she simply wants to destroy people who do not follow her (Stef McGraw, Richard Dawkins).
i tend to think this is more true then it's not. i've been on both ends of this subject and i find it a tad hyocritical the views that tend to be expressed on the subject not to mention immature.
@marquee989 I missed the video before it was taken down, but she later commented that it was one where she was in agreement with Watson. Supposedly she was getting rape threats for it, and if that's the case, that's seriously fucked up.
My above comment is based on her coming out in agreement transphobe Oojamaflipper based on some "social constructionist" dogma she'd heard, and raising $14K for a "faith-based" anti-trafficking charity that's pretty sketchy.
There was a lot of Raeg going on after Watson's vid, but she didn't seem all that upset at that point. It sounded more like general How Not to Appear Creepy advice. Commenters started the escalation.
No, Watson started it by mentioning she didn't like it when men "sexualized" her.
I thought I made it clear why this term is quite bullshit laden in this video, but sometimes my ability to properly articulate my thoughts in speech can be limited. My mistake.
@SolRosenberg84 Haven't really seen much about "sexualisation" yet. Some, yes, but on my end of the intertubes it's been outweighed by talk of proper elevator etiquette and accusations of over-/under-reaction.
@SolRosenberg84 that's exactly my point. Everyone thinsk Watson was being so polite. It was quite the opposite, she seems to think she has some type of "privilege" where she doesn't get to be sexualized like every other human being on the planet
Spot on. When people complain about being sexualised, it's only because they're being sexualised by someone they don't find attractive. Unless someone is completely asexual, then everyone wants to be sexualised at some point. If Rebecca Watson had fancied the pants off the person propositioning her in the elevator, I strongly suspect we'd never had heard this story.
@Sigrhofundr I don't think so. If someone approaches me in a way that makes me uncomfortable, it doesn't really matter what their level of attractiveness is. In high school there was a guy that I thought was very handsome and interesting. I still felt uncomfortable when one day he came into a darkened classroom where I was alone and tried to flirt with me. After trying to politely diffuse his advances, his veiled verbal propositions quickly turned into him forcing his hands under my sweater.
@bowlsallbroken It potentially was the same thing right until it happened, and unless one has precognition, one cannot be certain that a case may turn either way.
So every time a man makes a pass at a woman, and the woman so happens to *not* be interested, she should assume it's going to turn into an assault. I'm really, really, glad I've not made many passes at disinterested women, otherwise I'd likely be a masher/rapist, right?
Women have to face the possibility of rape. If they don't know you, why *should* they assume you aren't a rapist, especially when your behavior so far is indistinguishable from one? Should every woman just throw caution to the wind just so you can have a chance to get your game on? Its not as if in most places raped women are blamed for the event, for being too slutty, or promiscuous... Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.
"If they don't know you, why *should* they assume you aren't a rapist, especially when your behavior so far is indistinguishable from one?"
No problem! Just denigrate a guy who made a pass and *didn't* rape you. After all, I'm sure he was a rapist in his heart. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been ugly or awkward.
"Should every woman just throw caution to the wind"
WTF does caution have to do with her bitching after the guy *didn't* touch her?
@bowlsallbroken She didn't call him a rapist though, did she? She said she was uncomfortable because of his actions. His action, to approach her at 4am in an empty elevator was the problem, not the rape that didn't occur.
No, she didn't call him a rapist. You're the one saying a pass is indistinguishable from the behavior of a rapist before he rapes and should be treated similarly. She may have been legitimately concerned that something was going to happen against her will, but walking around with that kind of assumption/fear is pathological and *not* ultimately his fault.
I concede he was probably creepy. What of it? Her need to publicly complain that he "sexualized" her is ridiculous.
@bowlsallbroken Where we disagree is that a) the pass itself was the problem, rather than its execution b) Rebecca didn't say it was his fault and c) the fear of sexual assault is not pathological if you actually read the rape statistics.
Statistics show that a large number of women are sexually assaulted within their lifetime. Yet you and I are very unlikely victims of rape. We don't need to think about it. They do.
@bowlsallbroken There is a difference between saying that someone somwhere might suffer from a pathological fear and stating that anyone that fears X must be mentally ill, especially when the numbers say that such fear might be justified.
In my opinion, focusing on this event is the red herring, as RW basically used it as an example, not specifically to castigate the guy and paint him a monster, but to make the point that there is still work to be done. The shitstorm followed by other people.
I understand what you're saying, but it really seems like you are defending letting an obsessive fear of *possible* rape become more important than the fact that the vast majority of men just aren't rapists. I'm using the term "pathological" here to describe a sociological phenomenon, not single anyone out as mentally ill.
Assuming that this guy should *have just assumed* she would be afraid of him is a little overboard. Again, I wonder if she was more afraid or just unattracted.
@bowlsallbroken And the point being made is your opinion that this is overboard may be due to the fact that your situation is different. You dont have to fear the possibility of rape. Furthermore, it is projected onto women that if they get raped, it was their fault for not being careful/chaste/proper/ a non-slut.
If he had approached her an hour earlier in the bar, it wouldnt have been an issue. That this guy appoached her at 4am when she was alone in an enclosed space is the whole point.
@Sigrhofundr -continued- Watson didn't feel uncomfortable for no reason. Many women are on heightened alert for that kinda stuff all the time. Such things aren't rare occurrences!
@guildpactminish I'm very sorry to hear about your experience, but would say that went way beyond mere sexualisation, so of course at that point the person's attractiveness is moot.
To be honest, when I first watched Watson's video, I thought there are too many variables we don't know about to judge the situation fully, like the guys general demeanor, if he was drunk or not, whether he invaded her personal space or kept to the far side of elevator.
I get what you're saying, but I simply can't see how women who fear all men they meet are likely rapists are any less sexist than, say, white people who fear all black people they meet are likely muggers are racist.
This isn't a matter of judgment, really, as people do not actively choose to have these fears. What I am saying is that they are largely irrational and pathological.
I will concede that an elevator ride is a bad place to try to pick-up, in general.
You forgot to mention that the societal system of courting that we have (Western civilization that is, or at least anglo-saxon culture, north america, england, etc.) has developed into a system where men have to initiate. Men have to put themselves out there first. Most American women will never stick their neck out to court a guy, ask for a number. So women play the "gotcha game" when they get hit on by undesirable men. Some women can be downright nasty about it. Sadly enough.
@DracoAquarian1 Here's the thing: There are two problems. A. Guys aren't mind readers, so there don't know if a girl is willing unless they ask. B. Girls aren't mind readers either, so they don't know if a guy is harmless or a potential rapist, until its too late.
I find it funny that the preferred solution for A is "give the boys a chance!" and for B "Suck it up and deal so we can solve A" This is the whole privilege situation in a nutshell.
After reading as much as I can about this bizarre situation, I’ve come to the conclusion that not only is Rebecca Watson a radical feminist, but she is also sexist. Yes, that’s right, sexist.
She seems to have pigeon-holed an enormous sector of the male population, i.e. the ugly ones, as being single-minded sex pests simply for the sheer effrontery of asking her out!
The sheer hypocrisy of her statement is quite staggering for someone who proclaims to be a ‘rational thinker’.
Rebecca Watson always creeped me out with her evil patriarchy obsession, but I ignored her until she gave a talk how the most pressing matter in the atheist community is... SEXISM... I mean.. really? I'm very well aware that being an atheist doesn't make you a lvl20 paladin of highest morals and defender of the Earth and Humanities, but seriously.. Sexism barely exists in the online atheist community..
Then she pulled this shit on Dawkins.. What a cunt.
I always thought she was cute and liked the idea of women being in the forefront of skepticism. If she can handle this mess in a reasonable way, I'd be happy. Unfortunately skepticism and feminism are incompatible perspectives. Feminism, much like religion, assumes a world view that cannot be disconfirmed (i.e. men are evil, women victims). A point that feminist skeptics ignore.
Agree 100% There are definately double standards there. If the hot guy hits on you its a plus and if the awkward guy hits on you its sexual harrassment.
Women has to know that this is true and why not take it all as a compliment. I have been hit on by other dudes. Im not gay but that excellent.
I know, right? One thing any reasonable, civilized, and cosmopolitan adult should be able to do is turn down a polite pass without getting his/her panties in a ridiculous wad.
What the hell has this world come to when someone can't even be politely interested in someone else, hell even openly *attracted*to them, without a call for fucking castration?
@bowlsallbroken And this is the problem right here. Watson: "Guys, this creeps me out, cool it" Response -"They'll castrate us!" Even figuratively, don't you see the difference in gravity?
Note: in your view he was "politely interested" she is calling for castration. Don't you think there is some bias showing there?
The reason Sol and I are complaining is her "sexualizing" bullshit and need to publicly complain - not her privately finding this guy creepy. Do you understand that men politely hitting on women *does not* make them a fucking assailant/rapist and that it is sexist to assume so?
Do you seriously misunderstand that I was using "castration" metaphorically? I can explain further if you're really that dense.
@bowlsallbroken Did you miss the point where I said "even figuratively" your comment is beyond anything Watson said?
The point you're missing is that you have the luxury of knowing you're not a rapist. She doesn't. Until she does, wouldn't it just be goddamn common courtesy not to approach her in a deserted elevator? She was in a bar just before, couldn't the guy have asked her there?
It seems you refuse to address my actual problem with her - here's a hint: it's not that she found the guy creepy or that she was a little afraid. Sol sums it up nicely in the video.
I'm using the word castration because Watson's objection seems to go beyond finding the guy's pass inappropriate in time/venue and extends to his expressing, or even having, a sexual view of her at all. Unless she's asexual, I'm sure there's at least one person she doesn't mind "sexualizing" her.
@cheeekamoomoo In her case, there was no physical contact. There was also no argument or pressure when she said no. In other words, he did what we women WANT a guy to do if the answer is no, accept it with no fuss. Yet, he's being seen as a harasser or even by some as a rapist.
@ScentedNectar everything you've said is conjecture motivated by your hate for rkwatson or women of her ilk: you don't don't know how inebriated he was, or if he was inebriated, or if he slurred his words, or if he pulled a long face and grumbled... in short, based on the scant amount of information you don't no shit, so don't invent shit, thanks
@userono I'm basing it on what she said and what was said afterwards. The story ended at her saying no. He accepted the no. Afterwards, the feminist blog community called it harassment & a rape threat. No invention on my part. Go read my blog. There are links to the 3 threads that Dawkins' comments were on, and where I was replying to all sorts of femtard twaddle. They were saying shit like all men are potential rapists, & that EG should have predicted her fear and not asked.
@userono Also, did you know that a couple years ago, Watson was posting that she LIKES occasional random advances from strangers? She just doesn't like it if they touch her or squish her up against windowless walls on trains, which is totally fair. EG did not touch or squish her, but her feminist ideology faith has taught her that he was now committing a thought crime ("sexualizing her") so therefore he's now tainted with man-sin, whereas before she might have enjoyed such an offer.
@ScentedNectar 1. yes, the level of vitriol over at pz's blog was unwarranted and batshit crazy! and the batshit crazy response that rkwatson received should have be directed at the gals over at pz'z blog, but rkwatson is one of those people that get on peoples nerves... i think it's the snozz
2. "Watson was posting that she LIKES occasional random advances from strangers" you emphasise LIKES which doesn't mean being followed into an elevator at 4am after she told the company she was in...
@userono cont. (and presumably elevator guy was amongst them) that she was exhausted and wanted to sleep
i would emphasise OCCASSIONAL, you know like "appropriate", like, you know, a burglar breaks into your house and wakes you up ISN'T appropriate even if he doesn't have rape on his mind
"oh, the poor burglar, let's all start a fund for him, because some members of the community have cast aspersions on him"
@userono 1. True at first, but she then joined in, fanned the flames with encouraging a juvenile Dawkins boycott, and she also got a bunch of assault survivors to do a letter writing campaign to him, so she's made it into a rape threat issue too.
@ScentedNectar 2. A stranger talking to you in an open-at-all-hours hotel with bars still open at 4am, in a public elevator (not her room) that likely has cameras as well, can't be compared to one's home where you really DO have a reason to fear if a stranger is suddenly in there waking you up to talk.
@ScentedNectar 1. i'm focusing on one video and not the wildfire that ensued when dawkin's decided to enter the fray, or what the hysteria over at pharyngula, because eveything becomes muddled and conflated and as far as i'm concerned are spin-off debates, so please keep my comments in the context of the video entitled "About Mythbusters, Robot Eyes, Feminism, and Jokes", ok
unless we e.g. specifically talk about dawkins involvement
@userono What? You were wanting to talk about Watson's involvement, so I let you know that she WAS involved beyond the initial video. Now you're saying you only want to talk about the video but nothing she said or did after? Forget it, that's not the full story. And how come the exception for discussing Dawkins?
@ScentedNectar 2. it's an analogy, and quite an accurate analogy if i may say, but analogies aren't really your thing, you have difficulty grasping them for some reason or you're being disingenuous
@userono Your analogy is just not a comparable one. Those are two very different circumstances under which one might find a stranger talking to you. Public elevator VS private home in bed.
No userono, whether he "followed" her to the elevator, or just happened to be in it is immaterial. Yes he planned to join her in the elevator. He planned (OMG!!!) to ask her to his room. So what!! It is still just an honest request. If she didn't want to do that she could and did say no.
There is no obnoxious crime here. It is not a BFD! You have a totally screwed up idea of human interaction if you think it is a crime to ask someone a question that they don't' want to be asked.
We don't know what he knew or remembered from her statements earlier in the evening. So that is irrelevant and hearsay at best. That is just based on Rebecca's biased recall of the the events. We haven't heard from the terribell person who had the audacity to ask a question in an elevator.
//whether he "followed" her to the elevator, or just happened to be in it is immaterial// sorry, dude, it makes a difference... he hung around waiting for her to leave and followed her... that's creepy, not rapey, just creepy
//Rebecca's biased recall// why are you casting aspersions regarding the veracity of her encounter? obviously, you have an axe to grind, so you're not exactly a pillar of impartiality yourself there tiger
@userono in conclusion, if new information comes to light, real information as opposed to self-serving speculation, well i'll have no choice but to change my mind, cheers
This video reminded me from something. I tend to debate a lot. Most people doesn't like it, but I remember once my female friends had conversation about how annoying part of me this was...
I don't recall how but at some point they said that if guy was hot they wouldn't even mind if guy debated a lot. And actually said that kind of guy would be very cool.
Isn't it enough for this guy to just get shot down? Does he really have to be humiliated?
Someone *respectfully*, and without abusing some sort of power over you or making you face a hostile environment, propositioning (adult) you isn't inherently insulting. Granted, if you aren't attracted to the person it may be uncomfortable, but they've done nothing wrong, per se.
100% correct that there are attractive/smooth guys who get rewarded for doing exactly what this guy is getting slammed for.
If the guy was more desirable absolutely things would've been different, the situation of being alone in an elevator be damned. Feminists can't admit that, because it opens the door to saying that you can't just refer back to an abstract theory of "gender privilege" to make sense of sexual interactions. Think of Kuhn and his idea of paradigms: there are a lot of difficulties that the Feminist paradigm can't accommodate, and because the paradigm is ideological it actively ignores some things.
Sol, you are so incredibly fucking great! I've thought a lot on this matter since I heard about it a few days ago. I had the feeling that I would like to respond, ask some questions, ask ms Watson what is ok for any guy to do, no matter his looks, if even asking for coffee (albeit in an awkward elevator) will make him an evil person. And then you come along and just blast down every single argument anybody ever uttered in this question, simply by telling it like it is. Cheers!
I agree with all your points but I still don't think anyone has elaborated on what Dawkin's point actually was with his remark. The dude wasn't trying to belittle allegations of sexism in the atheist community, he was reacting to the fact that Skepchicks experiences were far too petty in relation to the issues that she was actually slated to discuss at the conference and how it just came off as self serving to him... I actually was a lil neutral on this issue until I read her reaction (cont)
(cont) on her blog to D's remarks and man, my respect for her has taken a nose dive. She basically deemed Dawkins as irrelevant, old+dispensable, part of the old guard which should be changed immediately. Now whether RD is right or wrong here doesnt really matter. He could be superfucking wrong but that still shouldnt have baring on the merit of all he's done outside of this incident. And 4 her to basically call for a RD boycott and claim that his remarks were born out of sexism is BS.
@vadimcream Dawkins elaborated on the Pharyngula threads that he was comparing a large bad to a ZERO bad, something I totally agree with. Most people are saying that he was brushing off a lesser bad, but there was actually NO bad. Her decline of the coffee offer was accepted without fuss.
I have 2 blog articles on this if anyone wants to see them.
scentednectar (dot) blogspot (dot) com or click the link on my channel page profile.
The real problem is that we are not just human beings, but animals. Males think about sex more because we are naturally prone to it. While females tend to nest, and seek out a good strong mate (yes, this mate does tend to be an asshole in MOST cases) all a male wants (biologically) is to spread his... genes as often as he can to increase his bloodline.
@sensori PZ's was even worse. After the 3 threads that had Dawkins' comments in them, where everyone called men potential rapists ad nauseum, he posted a 4th article with comments off this time, that had a link to an article that people had been pushing for days, all about how and why we should think of every man as a potential rapist. Instead of practically saying it like Plait did, he was outright saying it.
awkward place? please! I had "some" at funerals... that's awkward. I love the double standard that some women have on the issue. "I am just in a tight cocktail dress, with half of my boobs exposed, perfumed, hair industrially processed, makeup and no ring in my finger... but if you somehow desire me, you make me feel like a sexual object." - the only thing the guy can be accused is of having no game
Ya, I've thought that BOTH sides were wrong on multiple points. I actually disliked it when Rebecca tried to say that men who write her pms where they describe their sexual fantasies to her, is somehow "sexist:" NO ITS FUCKING NOT! Yes it's inappropriate, but it aint fucking sexist what so ever. If a male or female wrote Richard Dawkins a pm full of their sexual fantasies, would it be sexist? FUCK NO! What if a female sent Rebecca a sexual pm? Would it be sexist? NO! PERIOD, so that pissed meoff
This whole thing has pissed me off for the past few days because of the same reason that I fucking hate news stories about shit that never fucking happened, but COULD OF. This entire thing is a non issue. Dawkin's talked about some guy smearing bubble gum in his hair, and Richard just stood there and waited until he could get out. Compare that to this Rebecca story, guy tries to pick her up, failed, THE END. The only difference is the situation.
If this had happened at lets say....11 in the afternoon, while she was sober this could also not be an issue, this entire thing would of never happened. So I just find this a absurd issue to even discuss. I would much rather us talk about the sexist in our fold who want Rebecca to 'shut up" when ever she talks about sexism and does her feminist talks. I enjoyed her feminist talks and I think it's important, not this bullshit and I am talking to BOTH groups, to Reb and Rich.
The best argument against Rebecca's bullshit argument is Elvis Presley.
TONS of women were "sexualizing" him. Gender is fucking irrelevant, and it would be special pleading for Rebecca to say 'well it's different for a women, so it's sexist" Call is wrong, call it inappropriate, call it sick, call it absurd, but you can't fucking call it sexist and be taken seriously. I also I dont doubt poems did get you laid 3 times.
@bamboo4tameshigiri whoa too stoned to type (stay away from the synthetics kids) 3 GIRLS. Poems got me laid with 3 different girls but I was also young an stupid, etc.
I agree with everything you said. I wonder if its just because we're men that we see things this way. I'm only saying that because I haven't heard a woman come to our defense on this subject yet.
@bravesirrobin8 I do. And so do some others. I'm in total agreement with Dawkins' comments and consider Watson's event to have been a non-event. The guy accepted 'no' with no fuss. That is EXACTLY what us women have been wanting in response to a 'no' answer, isn't it? This Elevator Guy should be held up as a good example, not a bad one.
Laci has a video on her LaciGreen channel called "Dating a stranger" in which she gives advice to people on what technique works best when approaching a stranger and asking the out. She cant really make a video like that & then complain when somebody tries to do it. Maybe if that guy had watched her video he'd have been more successful eh?
@bowlsallbroken What the fuck? It's not possible to know for certain beforehand. Every guy who asks a girl out is a rapist? Dude, go smoke some more crack.
Sol make an update video man are you dead??
aducksecho 1 month ago
@aducksecho
Not dead, just busy.
Fucking life.
SolRosenberg84 1 month ago
Im a little late to watch some of these. Really like the content though. Too bad almost all the videos hes responding to are taken down :(
SkeetYaOnFace9 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
i can See why she likes you :D
(after 57 seconds)
GoodByeKyle 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
"your human beens , you wanna fuck each other get over it" made my day
mitchalot 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
Man, it's been a while since I watched this guy.........YOUR LIKE THE BROTHER I NEVER HAD!!!!!
gaobreaker 2 months ago
Shut up you dickhead, suck a cock!
MrMelstro 3 months ago
"He" did NOT pick an awkward place. Guys instinctually get chicks alone because it improves their chances. How many blokes go up to a girl and hit on them IN FRONT OF ALL HER girlfriends? None I know of... except overly brash idiots. Most guys try to engage a woman more personally because it improves their chances. I guess following evolution, human social evolution is now sexist.
DRAKULU 4 months ago
No, RW is shit; plain and simple. She is a manipulative cunt. Tons of people inside the atheist community have sounded off on this "incident", BUT if any of them had any idea what this Skep"chick" is really doing... Every time I turn around she has a problem with a man (Brian Dunning)... Every time! Maybe she made up the whole elevator incident? Not to mention, there are a huge amount of women in the atheist community who have denounced her crap. She is a misandrist. Yes, she is. She hates men!
DRAKULU 4 months ago
You've just discussed what is observed in nature when it comes to animals in the wild and that is; women choose their mates, not the men.
truvelocity 4 months ago
You sum it up so perfectly. I found my own way to handle with that issue: every time I see a woman, I run away screaming. Problem solved, no more charges since. Though now I scream a lot.
grinfcked 5 months ago
I agree 100%. Sexual harassment laws seem to only be in place to protect you from ugly people. If he was attractive, it wouldn't be a problem.
DblOSmith 5 months ago
you are a fucking genius!
gandalfdensvarte 7 months ago
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They use men's desire for sex to get ahead ...then try and hide all evidence of it. I pretty much agree here. Though Dawkins comment wasn't defending the guy so much as telling her to have some fucking context.
unassumption 7 months ago
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I don't even see why you SHOULD view someone as a 'whole human being' if all you want from them is sex... that's like viewing the chicken as a 'whole chicken being' when all we want is the meat. Why lie about it =/
unassumption 7 months ago
Girl brags about her hotness by complaining about a creepy guy hitting on her - is there anything more commonplace then that?.
Why did Richard Dawkins get involved in this? He must have been out of his mind.
DejectedPanda 7 months ago
One of my best friends actually epitomizes what you're talking about with being charming enough or attractive enough to get away with something your "average" guy would NEVER pull off.
TheBananamanAssassin 7 months ago
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Yeah, what exactly did Laci Green say? I'm assuming that she is an agreement with Watson...
marquee989 7 months ago
The perspective given in this video mirrors that provided by Islam, namely that human nature boils down to the genitalia. In reality our power to control our impulses is absolute if we wish to exercise it. SolRosenberg84, being an atheist, does not realise this. Mohammed, whose licentiousness is a matter of public record, probably did realise but was too morally debased to do anything about it.
atticana 7 months ago
Sex is like comedy. Good comedy and bad comedy both come from the same place: trying to be funny. Well effective come-ons and creepy come-ons both come from the same place: trying to get some. If you swing, eventually you're going to strike out. Feminists want us all in the dugout, politely awaiting permission to come out and play.
stopcicles 7 months ago
How dare he follow his human instinct.
brongarago 7 months ago
very true!
FactVsReligion 7 months ago
Wow... you are so insightful about women. NOT!
MegF142857 7 months ago
Yeah, I hate to break it to a lot of feminists. Guys are sexualizing us from the time we leave the house to the time we get home (and sometimes later) without us even realizing it. Get over it.
I once had a male friend tell me that a guy doesn't waste their time getting platonically friendly with a woman unless he thinks she's fuckable.
All that said, that guy would have creeped me out, too. But I wouldn't have complained about being "sexualized". That's retarded.
GodlessGirI 7 months ago
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@GodlessGirI "I once had a male friend tell me that a guy doesn't waste their time getting platonically friendly with a woman unless he thinks she's fuckable." well, that's not true. that guy may think that way, but he should speak for himself, not all men.
robokill387 4 months ago
From what I gather, Dawkins is the one who started this mess by making an unnecessary comment about Muslima getting it worse than western women, in regards to Watson relating her experience in an elevator and her personal feelings regarding it. What Dawkins said may be true, but it's also akin to saying that people should not fight flu, beause there is AIDS. And that's simply ridiculous. It's only after this remark, that Watson blew up and made her comment about sexualization.
SonnyGoten89 7 months ago
@SonnyGoten89 Yeah I agree that Dawkins point might have been better constructed but calling this sexualizing is like calling separate toilets sexism. Its a total non issue. I think that is what Dawkins tried to illustrate in his point.
philateliceun 7 months ago
@philateliceun I thought her reply with the whole sexualizing-thing (which was a bit overboard) was a REPLY to Dawkins's comment about Muslima (which was ridiculous to begin with), not the other way around.
SonnyGoten89 7 months ago
ARE YOU HITTING ON LACI???!!!
STOP IT, YOU CRUMB BUM!!! :P
AtomicDaytime 7 months ago
Thumbs upped this video right after your statement at 1:40
homie3626 7 months ago
Sex (and sexualizing) exists. Men and women address the issues of sex differently perhaps, but the sexualizing of the social situation should not constitute offensive behavior.
If someone proposes a sexual tryst, you can say "yes" or "no". The problem is if the person insists in spite of a clear "no". The proposition does not constitute an offense.
drfoxcourt 7 months ago
epic video. thank you
BillKiernan 7 months ago
I think I've figured out the moral of this story.
Thesis: women shouldn't be sexually harassed.
Antithesis: what about hot men?
Synthesis: only objectify women when you can get away with it. If you're hot and can dismiss women but still make them swoon for you, no harm done, but if you're not, know that there's a natural female reaction for awkward male behavior: fear of rape. I know it's hierarchical and cruel, but men should simply know their limits. If you don't like it, learn some game.
ConscientiousMind 7 months ago
boobs AND a hole......high standards!
OLTEK1 7 months ago
A human being is by definition a sexual object; its a factor of our evolution.
Watson fails to understand the fundamental of human nature, as I've said it to many conservatives and neo-feminists past: people be fuckin'! She has a vagina, the guy (presumebly) had a penis. It's how it works; if she takes a situation like this--awkward as it is--to be such an extreme indicator of sexist piggery, then it makes me wonder how she ever gets intimate (and all of this is coming from a male feminist).
niriop 7 months ago
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@niriop 'A human being is by definition a sexual object; its a factor of our evolution.'
Unless you deny that asexual human beings exist, this is not true.
AndrewTheEternal 7 months ago
@AndrewTheEternal An asexual human being is still "designed" to be sexually attractive to other human beings, and will be seen as a sexual object by others, regardless of the innate sexuality of that particular person.
I'd also like to clarify what I mean by "object": an object is a corporeal thing that can be observed, not just a term for something that is an inanimate physical thing, and it is not necessarily devoid of innate animated qualities such as a mind and emotions.
niriop 7 months ago
Good points. Yeah, what if the guy in the elavator had been George Clooney or David Beckham, would she consider them sleeze bags?
bonnie43uk 7 months ago
The Goddamn cunt got to sit next to Richard Dawkins even though she obviously can't grasp the concept of human evolution.
AronRa and Richard Dawkins, please don't poison your conference tables with unreasonable-agenda-pushing whores like that ever again.
Rebecca, the NEXT time I find you in an elevator, I'm gonna shove my COCK down your throat.
lotanddaughters 7 months ago
@lotanddaughters
Using hateful language like that doesn't make a point, you just come off as a troll.
silvertube52 7 months ago
@silvertube52 What's wrong with being a troll?
marquee989 7 months ago
I accept this as a rant, as I am sure there was hyperbole snuck in here, but the final sentence was as good as it gets.
supafly345 7 months ago
Laci lost hundreds of subscribers due to her last stupid video. Including my own subscription.
FaganRoberts 7 months ago
Good-looking people often do have an unfair advantage in many circumstances. However, even if he looked like George Clooney, most sensible women would accurately surmise that a man who hit on them in an elevator at 4:30am was (a) socially inept or totally insensitive, (b) drunk or high, (c) making a last ditch play after being repeatedly turned down by women all evening, (c) a creep who was up to no good, or (e) all of the above. Gorgeous or homely, such a guy is obviously a bad risk.
wavymavy 7 months ago
WAIT ONE MINUTE!!! What about groupie women that chase and grab after male rock and movie stars trying to have sex with them? Why doesn't anyone talk about that? Is it okay for women to behave in this manner towards men??
cain825 7 months ago
First off, is this whole thing being blown out of proportion? Yes, imo. However with that said, RW has blogged in the past about sexism in the atheist/freethinking community like being interrupted, talked over, or having her looks discussed instead of the topic she was discussing. She has also been PM'd/e-mailed w/ threats of rape, esp. if she talks about women's issues. I doubt she rejected him b/c of his looks. More like propositioning her in an enclosed space w/ no egress.
TheRecoveringZombie 7 months ago
if an ugly guys tries to hit on a girl at a bar they call him creepy and weird and are mean and rude and no one gives a shit. an ugly girl tries to hit on a guy and he says he's not interested, girls call him a shallow asshole.
kiddhitta 7 months ago
I completly agree with you, it seems that the guy had no game and he fucked up.
menonfire12 7 months ago
Great point!!!
cain825 7 months ago
I am a male. I have genitals which are made for reproduction so that the human race can survive, therefore somewhere in my mind I have the desire to have sex. I may have different parts than a female, but they are both meant for the same purpose. To say that a female never has a desire for sex, by that logic, is to say that she has no sexual organs or hormones, lol.
BokuWaJShi 7 months ago
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BokuWaJShi 7 months ago
Modern day feminism is all about seeing men as a threat, so of course a guy talking to a feminist on an elevator is "sexualizing" her. :P Yes, there are men who rape and/or sexually assault us, but Ms Watson is so far up her ass just like all other radical feminists.
gir908922 7 months ago
Watson and this guy had been drinking together in the bar for several hours (admittedly as part of a larger group) and had walked to the elevator together.
HConstantine 7 months ago
The issue that both you and Dawkins don't get is that women in the skeptical community are few and far between because as soon as a woman tries to join a skeptic group she gets hit on and sexualized. This scares them away or turns them off keeping the sex disparity between men and women high. Her opinions are no longer viewed the same way because she has tits. Watson has been championing this for a while. Dawkins doesn't know the whole story and made a joke and now is confused at the anger
anubis2814 7 months ago
@anubis2814
But what *exactly* is she championing? "Don't, not even politely and respectfully, hit on kindred-spirited, like-minded women who's intelligence and sense of humor you admire, who you share similar interests and philosophical views with, who spend their private time in the same setting - no, hit on the random girl in the street - or else you're an objectifying, sexualizing creep"?
And also, is there any evidence that *this* is the reason why women are underrepresented here?
NoNiceNameFound 7 months ago
@NoNiceNameFound The elevator guy was just a hint of advice. She wasn't mad at him at all. The issue actually dug up another incident where a skeptical group with a panel of mostly men, shouted mockingly belittled a woman who had problems and talked to other women who had problems with sexism in the skeptical community. This skeptic group actually had a bet running on who could nail one of their fellow skeptics first. Their is residual emotion from that that Watson that Dawkin is unaware
anubis2814 7 months ago
@anubis2814 And by nail it was a guys only bet. I do think Watson over-reacted, but there is an actual problem with sexism in some skeptical communities.
anubis2814 7 months ago
@anubis2814
I agree with all you say there, but here is my take: I'm subbed to rkwatson, skepchick and SGU. But I have to say that Watson seems to have descended into this brand of (ironically totally non-sceptical, dogmatic and unfalsifiable) feminism where everything is (hidden?) misogyny, it's really sad. The way she pushes her agenda grew more annoying over time imho and has now reached the level were she simply wants to destroy people who do not follow her (Stef McGraw, Richard Dawkins).
NoNiceNameFound 7 months ago
i tend to think this is more true then it's not. i've been on both ends of this subject and i find it a tad hyocritical the views that tend to be expressed on the subject not to mention immature.
TheBadcop69 7 months ago
I see the Laci Green video is down.
She's been getting some much-deserved flak lately for jumping into issues without really knowing what she's talking about.
iamcuriousblue 7 months ago 2
@iamcuriousblue Yeah, what exactly did Laci Green say? I'm assuming that she is an agreement with Watson...
marquee989 7 months ago
@marquee989 I missed the video before it was taken down, but she later commented that it was one where she was in agreement with Watson. Supposedly she was getting rape threats for it, and if that's the case, that's seriously fucked up.
My above comment is based on her coming out in agreement transphobe Oojamaflipper based on some "social constructionist" dogma she'd heard, and raising $14K for a "faith-based" anti-trafficking charity that's pretty sketchy.
iamcuriousblue 7 months ago
There was a lot of Raeg going on after Watson's vid, but she didn't seem all that upset at that point. It sounded more like general How Not to Appear Creepy advice. Commenters started the escalation.
Fjarhultian 7 months ago 2
@Fjarhultian
No, Watson started it by mentioning she didn't like it when men "sexualized" her.
I thought I made it clear why this term is quite bullshit laden in this video, but sometimes my ability to properly articulate my thoughts in speech can be limited. My mistake.
SolRosenberg84 7 months ago 5
@SolRosenberg84 Haven't really seen much about "sexualisation" yet. Some, yes, but on my end of the intertubes it's been outweighed by talk of proper elevator etiquette and accusations of over-/under-reaction.
Fjarhultian 7 months ago
@SolRosenberg84 that's exactly my point. Everyone thinsk Watson was being so polite. It was quite the opposite, she seems to think she has some type of "privilege" where she doesn't get to be sexualized like every other human being on the planet
qtzlctl2012 7 months ago
@SolRosenberg84
I'm so glad I'm gay so that I don't have to deal with such inherent inequality between partners. Just listening to this shit is annoying.
FluidDeconstructor 7 months ago 3
Spot on. When people complain about being sexualised, it's only because they're being sexualised by someone they don't find attractive. Unless someone is completely asexual, then everyone wants to be sexualised at some point. If Rebecca Watson had fancied the pants off the person propositioning her in the elevator, I strongly suspect we'd never had heard this story.
Sigrhofundr 7 months ago 3
@Sigrhofundr I don't think so. If someone approaches me in a way that makes me uncomfortable, it doesn't really matter what their level of attractiveness is. In high school there was a guy that I thought was very handsome and interesting. I still felt uncomfortable when one day he came into a darkened classroom where I was alone and tried to flirt with me. After trying to politely diffuse his advances, his veiled verbal propositions quickly turned into him forcing his hands under my sweater.
guildpactminish 7 months ago
@guildpactminish
"him forcing his hands under my sweater."
I'm sorry that happened to you, but you do realize this isn't remotely the same thing at all, right?
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken It potentially was the same thing right until it happened, and unless one has precognition, one cannot be certain that a case may turn either way.
Cafeeine 7 months ago
@Cafeeine
So every time a man makes a pass at a woman, and the woman so happens to *not* be interested, she should assume it's going to turn into an assault. I'm really, really, glad I've not made many passes at disinterested women, otherwise I'd likely be a masher/rapist, right?
In-fucking-sanity.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken Completely over your head.
Women have to face the possibility of rape. If they don't know you, why *should* they assume you aren't a rapist, especially when your behavior so far is indistinguishable from one? Should every woman just throw caution to the wind just so you can have a chance to get your game on? Its not as if in most places raped women are blamed for the event, for being too slutty, or promiscuous... Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.
Cafeeine 7 months ago
@Cafeeine
"If they don't know you, why *should* they assume you aren't a rapist, especially when your behavior so far is indistinguishable from one?"
No problem! Just denigrate a guy who made a pass and *didn't* rape you. After all, I'm sure he was a rapist in his heart. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been ugly or awkward.
"Should every woman just throw caution to the wind"
WTF does caution have to do with her bitching after the guy *didn't* touch her?
"women are blamed"
Relevance?
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken She didn't call him a rapist though, did she? She said she was uncomfortable because of his actions. His action, to approach her at 4am in an empty elevator was the problem, not the rape that didn't occur.
Cafeeine 7 months ago
@Cafeeine
No, she didn't call him a rapist. You're the one saying a pass is indistinguishable from the behavior of a rapist before he rapes and should be treated similarly. She may have been legitimately concerned that something was going to happen against her will, but walking around with that kind of assumption/fear is pathological and *not* ultimately his fault.
I concede he was probably creepy. What of it? Her need to publicly complain that he "sexualized" her is ridiculous.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken Where we disagree is that a) the pass itself was the problem, rather than its execution b) Rebecca didn't say it was his fault and c) the fear of sexual assault is not pathological if you actually read the rape statistics.
Statistics show that a large number of women are sexually assaulted within their lifetime. Yet you and I are very unlikely victims of rape. We don't need to think about it. They do.
Cafeeine 7 months ago
@Cafeeine
"the fear of sexual assault is not pathological"
Are you seriously asserting that there is no point/degree/circumstance where this would be pathological rather than functional?
Again, I think this is a bit of a red herring and isn't really where my beef with her lies, but I'm nonetheless interested in what you have to say.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken There is a difference between saying that someone somwhere might suffer from a pathological fear and stating that anyone that fears X must be mentally ill, especially when the numbers say that such fear might be justified.
In my opinion, focusing on this event is the red herring, as RW basically used it as an example, not specifically to castigate the guy and paint him a monster, but to make the point that there is still work to be done. The shitstorm followed by other people.
Cafeeine 7 months ago
@Cafeeine
I understand what you're saying, but it really seems like you are defending letting an obsessive fear of *possible* rape become more important than the fact that the vast majority of men just aren't rapists. I'm using the term "pathological" here to describe a sociological phenomenon, not single anyone out as mentally ill.
Assuming that this guy should *have just assumed* she would be afraid of him is a little overboard. Again, I wonder if she was more afraid or just unattracted.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken And the point being made is your opinion that this is overboard may be due to the fact that your situation is different. You dont have to fear the possibility of rape. Furthermore, it is projected onto women that if they get raped, it was their fault for not being careful/chaste/proper/ a non-slut.
If he had approached her an hour earlier in the bar, it wouldnt have been an issue. That this guy appoached her at 4am when she was alone in an enclosed space is the whole point.
Cafeeine 7 months ago
@Sigrhofundr -continued- Watson didn't feel uncomfortable for no reason. Many women are on heightened alert for that kinda stuff all the time. Such things aren't rare occurrences!
guildpactminish 7 months ago
@guildpactminish I'm very sorry to hear about your experience, but would say that went way beyond mere sexualisation, so of course at that point the person's attractiveness is moot.
To be honest, when I first watched Watson's video, I thought there are too many variables we don't know about to judge the situation fully, like the guys general demeanor, if he was drunk or not, whether he invaded her personal space or kept to the far side of elevator.
Sigrhofundr 7 months ago
@JohnHenryAlex
I get what you're saying, but I simply can't see how women who fear all men they meet are likely rapists are any less sexist than, say, white people who fear all black people they meet are likely muggers are racist.
This isn't a matter of judgment, really, as people do not actively choose to have these fears. What I am saying is that they are largely irrational and pathological.
I will concede that an elevator ride is a bad place to try to pick-up, in general.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
Good video. I only agree with 0.00 - 5.12 though. ( :D )
Zenithstrife 7 months ago 4
You forgot to mention that the societal system of courting that we have (Western civilization that is, or at least anglo-saxon culture, north america, england, etc.) has developed into a system where men have to initiate. Men have to put themselves out there first. Most American women will never stick their neck out to court a guy, ask for a number. So women play the "gotcha game" when they get hit on by undesirable men. Some women can be downright nasty about it. Sadly enough.
Nice topic
DracoAquarian1 7 months ago
@DracoAquarian1 Here's the thing: There are two problems. A. Guys aren't mind readers, so there don't know if a girl is willing unless they ask. B. Girls aren't mind readers either, so they don't know if a guy is harmless or a potential rapist, until its too late.
I find it funny that the preferred solution for A is "give the boys a chance!" and for B "Suck it up and deal so we can solve A" This is the whole privilege situation in a nutshell.
Cafeeine 7 months ago
I'm pretty sure Rebecca Watson is a lesbian, so it wouldn't have mattered how charming the guy was.
Square peg - round hole, so to speak. Otherwise, good points.
eequalsfb 7 months ago
Your logic is undeniable, Sol.
MagnusIan 7 months ago
You are so right lol
ateopuertorico 7 months ago
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. One woman's creeper is another woman's romantic.
TruthBeyond 7 months ago
@TruthBeyond Interesting quote :)
menonfire12 7 months ago
After reading as much as I can about this bizarre situation, I’ve come to the conclusion that not only is Rebecca Watson a radical feminist, but she is also sexist. Yes, that’s right, sexist.
She seems to have pigeon-holed an enormous sector of the male population, i.e. the ugly ones, as being single-minded sex pests simply for the sheer effrontery of asking her out!
The sheer hypocrisy of her statement is quite staggering for someone who proclaims to be a ‘rational thinker’.
karadan100 7 months ago 19
@karadan100
Rebecca Watson always creeped me out with her evil patriarchy obsession, but I ignored her until she gave a talk how the most pressing matter in the atheist community is... SEXISM... I mean.. really? I'm very well aware that being an atheist doesn't make you a lvl20 paladin of highest morals and defender of the Earth and Humanities, but seriously.. Sexism barely exists in the online atheist community..
Then she pulled this shit on Dawkins.. What a cunt.
d3st88 7 months ago 2
@d3st88
I always thought she was cute and liked the idea of women being in the forefront of skepticism. If she can handle this mess in a reasonable way, I'd be happy. Unfortunately skepticism and feminism are incompatible perspectives. Feminism, much like religion, assumes a world view that cannot be disconfirmed (i.e. men are evil, women victims). A point that feminist skeptics ignore.
silvertube52 7 months ago 12
Agree 100% There are definately double standards there. If the hot guy hits on you its a plus and if the awkward guy hits on you its sexual harrassment.
Women has to know that this is true and why not take it all as a compliment. I have been hit on by other dudes. Im not gay but that excellent.
CognosSquare 7 months ago
@CognosSquare
I know, right? One thing any reasonable, civilized, and cosmopolitan adult should be able to do is turn down a polite pass without getting his/her panties in a ridiculous wad.
What the hell has this world come to when someone can't even be politely interested in someone else, hell even openly *attracted*to them, without a call for fucking castration?
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken And this is the problem right here. Watson: "Guys, this creeps me out, cool it" Response -"They'll castrate us!" Even figuratively, don't you see the difference in gravity?
Note: in your view he was "politely interested" she is calling for castration. Don't you think there is some bias showing there?
Cafeeine 7 months ago
@Cafeeine
Oh fuck me!
The reason Sol and I are complaining is her "sexualizing" bullshit and need to publicly complain - not her privately finding this guy creepy. Do you understand that men politely hitting on women *does not* make them a fucking assailant/rapist and that it is sexist to assume so?
Do you seriously misunderstand that I was using "castration" metaphorically? I can explain further if you're really that dense.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken Did you miss the point where I said "even figuratively" your comment is beyond anything Watson said?
The point you're missing is that you have the luxury of knowing you're not a rapist. She doesn't. Until she does, wouldn't it just be goddamn common courtesy not to approach her in a deserted elevator? She was in a bar just before, couldn't the guy have asked her there?
Cafeeine 7 months ago
@Cafeeine
It seems you refuse to address my actual problem with her - here's a hint: it's not that she found the guy creepy or that she was a little afraid. Sol sums it up nicely in the video.
I'm using the word castration because Watson's objection seems to go beyond finding the guy's pass inappropriate in time/venue and extends to his expressing, or even having, a sexual view of her at all. Unless she's asexual, I'm sure there's at least one person she doesn't mind "sexualizing" her.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
The original rebecca Watson vid can be found here:
watch?v=uKHwduG1Frk
karadan100 7 months ago
I've had unwanted physical contact (to quote..... Shrek.) from a few males and it's a terrible rotten feeling.
Unwelcome advances happen. Why freak out??
cheeekamoomoo 7 months ago
@cheeekamoomoo In her case, there was no physical contact. There was also no argument or pressure when she said no. In other words, he did what we women WANT a guy to do if the answer is no, accept it with no fuss. Yet, he's being seen as a harasser or even by some as a rapist.
ScentedNectar 7 months ago 11
@ScentedNectar everything you've said is conjecture motivated by your hate for rkwatson or women of her ilk: you don't don't know how inebriated he was, or if he was inebriated, or if he slurred his words, or if he pulled a long face and grumbled... in short, based on the scant amount of information you don't no shit, so don't invent shit, thanks
userono 7 months ago
@userono I'm basing it on what she said and what was said afterwards. The story ended at her saying no. He accepted the no. Afterwards, the feminist blog community called it harassment & a rape threat. No invention on my part. Go read my blog. There are links to the 3 threads that Dawkins' comments were on, and where I was replying to all sorts of femtard twaddle. They were saying shit like all men are potential rapists, & that EG should have predicted her fear and not asked.
ScentedNectar 7 months ago
@userono Also, did you know that a couple years ago, Watson was posting that she LIKES occasional random advances from strangers? She just doesn't like it if they touch her or squish her up against windowless walls on trains, which is totally fair. EG did not touch or squish her, but her feminist ideology faith has taught her that he was now committing a thought crime ("sexualizing her") so therefore he's now tainted with man-sin, whereas before she might have enjoyed such an offer.
ScentedNectar 7 months ago
@ScentedNectar 1. yes, the level of vitriol over at pz's blog was unwarranted and batshit crazy! and the batshit crazy response that rkwatson received should have be directed at the gals over at pz'z blog, but rkwatson is one of those people that get on peoples nerves... i think it's the snozz
2. "Watson was posting that she LIKES occasional random advances from strangers" you emphasise LIKES which doesn't mean being followed into an elevator at 4am after she told the company she was in...
userono 7 months ago
@userono cont. (and presumably elevator guy was amongst them) that she was exhausted and wanted to sleep
i would emphasise OCCASSIONAL, you know like "appropriate", like, you know, a burglar breaks into your house and wakes you up ISN'T appropriate even if he doesn't have rape on his mind
"oh, the poor burglar, let's all start a fund for him, because some members of the community have cast aspersions on him"
userono 7 months ago
@userono 1. True at first, but she then joined in, fanned the flames with encouraging a juvenile Dawkins boycott, and she also got a bunch of assault survivors to do a letter writing campaign to him, so she's made it into a rape threat issue too.
cont...
ScentedNectar 7 months ago
@ScentedNectar 2. A stranger talking to you in an open-at-all-hours hotel with bars still open at 4am, in a public elevator (not her room) that likely has cameras as well, can't be compared to one's home where you really DO have a reason to fear if a stranger is suddenly in there waking you up to talk.
ScentedNectar 7 months ago
@ScentedNectar 1. i'm focusing on one video and not the wildfire that ensued when dawkin's decided to enter the fray, or what the hysteria over at pharyngula, because eveything becomes muddled and conflated and as far as i'm concerned are spin-off debates, so please keep my comments in the context of the video entitled "About Mythbusters, Robot Eyes, Feminism, and Jokes", ok
unless we e.g. specifically talk about dawkins involvement
userono 7 months ago
@userono What? You were wanting to talk about Watson's involvement, so I let you know that she WAS involved beyond the initial video. Now you're saying you only want to talk about the video but nothing she said or did after? Forget it, that's not the full story. And how come the exception for discussing Dawkins?
ScentedNectar 7 months ago
@ScentedNectar 2. it's an analogy, and quite an accurate analogy if i may say, but analogies aren't really your thing, you have difficulty grasping them for some reason or you're being disingenuous
userono 7 months ago
@userono Your analogy is just not a comparable one. Those are two very different circumstances under which one might find a stranger talking to you. Public elevator VS private home in bed.
ScentedNectar 7 months ago
@ScentedNectar check out the false impression you get from SolRosenberg84's description of the encounter: "the guy next to her in the elevator"
no, numbnuts, the guy followed her into the elevator after she said she was tired and wanted to go to bed
userono 7 months ago
@userono
No userono, whether he "followed" her to the elevator, or just happened to be in it is immaterial. Yes he planned to join her in the elevator. He planned (OMG!!!) to ask her to his room. So what!! It is still just an honest request. If she didn't want to do that she could and did say no.
There is no obnoxious crime here. It is not a BFD! You have a totally screwed up idea of human interaction if you think it is a crime to ask someone a question that they don't' want to be asked.
silvertube52 7 months ago
@uerono
Well no.
We don't know what he knew or remembered from her statements earlier in the evening. So that is irrelevant and hearsay at best. That is just based on Rebecca's biased recall of the the events. We haven't heard from the terribell person who had the audacity to ask a question in an elevator.
silvertube52 7 months ago
@silvertube52
//whether he "followed" her to the elevator, or just happened to be in it is immaterial// sorry, dude, it makes a difference... he hung around waiting for her to leave and followed her... that's creepy, not rapey, just creepy
//Rebecca's biased recall// why are you casting aspersions regarding the veracity of her encounter? obviously, you have an axe to grind, so you're not exactly a pillar of impartiality yourself there tiger
userono 7 months ago
@userono in conclusion, if new information comes to light, real information as opposed to self-serving speculation, well i'll have no choice but to change my mind, cheers
userono 7 months ago
This video reminded me from something. I tend to debate a lot. Most people doesn't like it, but I remember once my female friends had conversation about how annoying part of me this was...
I don't recall how but at some point they said that if guy was hot they wouldn't even mind if guy debated a lot. And actually said that kind of guy would be very cool.
Do they even realise what they are saying?
Tespri 7 months ago
I've never heard of any man complaining about being asked out by a girl.
karadan100 7 months ago
Great as always Sol.
Still loving your style.
karadan100 7 months ago
Isn't it enough for this guy to just get shot down? Does he really have to be humiliated?
Someone *respectfully*, and without abusing some sort of power over you or making you face a hostile environment, propositioning (adult) you isn't inherently insulting. Granted, if you aren't attracted to the person it may be uncomfortable, but they've done nothing wrong, per se.
100% correct that there are attractive/smooth guys who get rewarded for doing exactly what this guy is getting slammed for.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago 3
sorry, bongs...hahaha
Wally773MTG 7 months ago
Nice bong
Wally773MTG 7 months ago
If the guy was more desirable absolutely things would've been different, the situation of being alone in an elevator be damned. Feminists can't admit that, because it opens the door to saying that you can't just refer back to an abstract theory of "gender privilege" to make sense of sexual interactions. Think of Kuhn and his idea of paradigms: there are a lot of difficulties that the Feminist paradigm can't accommodate, and because the paradigm is ideological it actively ignores some things.
STigg2011 7 months ago
Do a Blog TV if you can.
Sulcuscentralis 7 months ago
You are so AWESOME! Post more videos!
TheJuliusJT 7 months ago
Sol, you are so incredibly fucking great! I've thought a lot on this matter since I heard about it a few days ago. I had the feeling that I would like to respond, ask some questions, ask ms Watson what is ok for any guy to do, no matter his looks, if even asking for coffee (albeit in an awkward elevator) will make him an evil person. And then you come along and just blast down every single argument anybody ever uttered in this question, simply by telling it like it is. Cheers!
BoyKissBoy 7 months ago
I agree with all your points but I still don't think anyone has elaborated on what Dawkin's point actually was with his remark. The dude wasn't trying to belittle allegations of sexism in the atheist community, he was reacting to the fact that Skepchicks experiences were far too petty in relation to the issues that she was actually slated to discuss at the conference and how it just came off as self serving to him... I actually was a lil neutral on this issue until I read her reaction (cont)
vadimcream 7 months ago 2
(cont) on her blog to D's remarks and man, my respect for her has taken a nose dive. She basically deemed Dawkins as irrelevant, old+dispensable, part of the old guard which should be changed immediately. Now whether RD is right or wrong here doesnt really matter. He could be superfucking wrong but that still shouldnt have baring on the merit of all he's done outside of this incident. And 4 her to basically call for a RD boycott and claim that his remarks were born out of sexism is BS.
vadimcream 7 months ago 2
@vadimcream Dawkins elaborated on the Pharyngula threads that he was comparing a large bad to a ZERO bad, something I totally agree with. Most people are saying that he was brushing off a lesser bad, but there was actually NO bad. Her decline of the coffee offer was accepted without fuss.
I have 2 blog articles on this if anyone wants to see them.
scentednectar (dot) blogspot (dot) com or click the link on my channel page profile.
ScentedNectar 7 months ago 3
Honestly, I don´t sexualize men! (I´m a lesbian) ;-)
kirafan68 7 months ago
@kirafan68
Aha! So you "sexualize" women, you dirty misogynist, you!
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
i agree the guy had no game
jmm1233 7 months ago
The real problem is that we are not just human beings, but animals. Males think about sex more because we are naturally prone to it. While females tend to nest, and seek out a good strong mate (yes, this mate does tend to be an asshole in MOST cases) all a male wants (biologically) is to spread his... genes as often as he can to increase his bloodline.
skywize 7 months ago
Phil Plaits blog post about this was horrible. Practically saying that all men are potential rapists.
sensori 7 months ago
@sensori PZ's was even worse. After the 3 threads that had Dawkins' comments in them, where everyone called men potential rapists ad nauseum, he posted a 4th article with comments off this time, that had a link to an article that people had been pushing for days, all about how and why we should think of every man as a potential rapist. Instead of practically saying it like Plait did, he was outright saying it.
ScentedNectar 7 months ago
Not important.
TheEnglishAthiest 7 months ago
awkward place? please! I had "some" at funerals... that's awkward. I love the double standard that some women have on the issue. "I am just in a tight cocktail dress, with half of my boobs exposed, perfumed, hair industrially processed, makeup and no ring in my finger... but if you somehow desire me, you make me feel like a sexual object." - the only thing the guy can be accused is of having no game
shadman1911 7 months ago
Ya, I've thought that BOTH sides were wrong on multiple points. I actually disliked it when Rebecca tried to say that men who write her pms where they describe their sexual fantasies to her, is somehow "sexist:" NO ITS FUCKING NOT! Yes it's inappropriate, but it aint fucking sexist what so ever. If a male or female wrote Richard Dawkins a pm full of their sexual fantasies, would it be sexist? FUCK NO! What if a female sent Rebecca a sexual pm? Would it be sexist? NO! PERIOD, so that pissed meoff
jay666KJ 7 months ago
@jay666KJ
This whole thing has pissed me off for the past few days because of the same reason that I fucking hate news stories about shit that never fucking happened, but COULD OF. This entire thing is a non issue. Dawkin's talked about some guy smearing bubble gum in his hair, and Richard just stood there and waited until he could get out. Compare that to this Rebecca story, guy tries to pick her up, failed, THE END. The only difference is the situation.
jay666KJ 7 months ago
@jay666KJ
If this had happened at lets say....11 in the afternoon, while she was sober this could also not be an issue, this entire thing would of never happened. So I just find this a absurd issue to even discuss. I would much rather us talk about the sexist in our fold who want Rebecca to 'shut up" when ever she talks about sexism and does her feminist talks. I enjoyed her feminist talks and I think it's important, not this bullshit and I am talking to BOTH groups, to Reb and Rich.
jay666KJ 7 months ago
@jay666KJ FYI: Poems got me laid 3 times
bamboo4tameshigiri 7 months ago
@bamboo4tameshigiri
The best argument against Rebecca's bullshit argument is Elvis Presley.
TONS of women were "sexualizing" him. Gender is fucking irrelevant, and it would be special pleading for Rebecca to say 'well it's different for a women, so it's sexist" Call is wrong, call it inappropriate, call it sick, call it absurd, but you can't fucking call it sexist and be taken seriously. I also I dont doubt poems did get you laid 3 times.
jay666KJ 7 months ago
@bamboo4tameshigiri revisions: Not 3 times- 2 GIRLS
bamboo4tameshigiri 7 months ago
@bamboo4tameshigiri whoa too stoned to type (stay away from the synthetics kids) 3 GIRLS. Poems got me laid with 3 different girls but I was also young an stupid, etc.
bamboo4tameshigiri 7 months ago
I agree with everything you said. I wonder if its just because we're men that we see things this way. I'm only saying that because I haven't heard a woman come to our defense on this subject yet.
bravesirrobin8 7 months ago 3
@bravesirrobin8
I've met at least two in person during a philosophy class in which feminism was discussed.
SolRosenberg84 7 months ago
@SolRosenberg84 I feel like raping Watson for all of her feminist whining.
RomansPwnedJesus 7 months ago
@RomansPwnedJesus
ya, guys like you are the problem, not men who took a awkward point in time to try and pick someone up.
So thanks for pointing out what is more important.
jay666KJ 7 months ago
@jay666KJ BOO HOO HOO!
RomansPwnedJesus 7 months ago
@SolRosenberg84 finally ive been waiting for more videos. thanks:)
AAljin 7 months ago
@bravesirrobin8 I do. And so do some others. I'm in total agreement with Dawkins' comments and consider Watson's event to have been a non-event. The guy accepted 'no' with no fuss. That is EXACTLY what us women have been wanting in response to a 'no' answer, isn't it? This Elevator Guy should be held up as a good example, not a bad one.
ScentedNectar 7 months ago
Laci has a video on her LaciGreen channel called "Dating a stranger" in which she gives advice to people on what technique works best when approaching a stranger and asking the out. She cant really make a video like that & then complain when somebody tries to do it. Maybe if that guy had watched her video he'd have been more successful eh?
Coughlan616 7 months ago 4
@Coughlan616 Everywhere you go you're like a fountain of rationality that shows hypocrisy how stupid it really is.
ScreamingBloodyGore 7 months ago
@ScreamingBloodyGore
Suck hole.
Textra1 7 months ago
@Textra1 Umadbro?
ScreamingBloodyGore 7 months ago
@Coughlan616
The secret, you see, is to *know* for certain beforehand that your target will be interested. Otherwise, you're a likely rapist for even trying.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken What the fuck? It's not possible to know for certain beforehand. Every guy who asks a girl out is a rapist? Dude, go smoke some more crack.
tml4873 7 months ago
@tml4873
You fail at recognizing over-the-top sarcasm, my friend.
bowlsallbroken 7 months ago
@bowlsallbroken Victim of Poe's Law. Apologies.
tml4873 7 months ago