The dream of a perfect Church - Emerging Church

[12centuries]

The editing in this video is quite poor. there is little coherence between the video snippets, and many of them are simply cut off in the middle of sentences.

[zeeman1992]

I LOVE TONY JONES!

[daveme7]

No wonder those in the emergent church do not believethe bible teaches truth-you can now believe what ever you want because if ths ebible does not teach truth-whatever you decide to believe is not sinful or reproached as sin. In other words, live however you want because if the bible does not matter, niether does your beliefs ofthe bible. Is it better to be relevant to God or to the world?

[john146only]

@daveme7 Evidently, before Hitler came to power the church in Germany went through the same thing and when he came there was but a small little group ( the remnant 4000 who said they would not go along with Hitler . Hitler took their names and threw them into the horror camps doing the same to them as the Jews and other political prisoners.) I forget the number of turn coats, 18 K or so that went along with Hitler, They taught that truth/morality come from us. This is not at all original!

[cats9900]

everyone except driscoll is peddling humanitarian bullcrap that has no power whatsoever to change anyone or anything. the emerging church will be dead in 10 years, and the real Christians who remain will cling to the doctrines of the church fathers and great men like Calvin and Spurgeon. New Calvinism is this generation's return to Jesus and, I think, the only hope for America's success as a nation.

[daveme7]

Do not ever ever claim you have truth-if you do, you are in sin

[cats9900]

@daveme7 where the HELL did you get that? oh, I answered my own question. Zing!

[kanenguez15]

anybody reading watching this garbage video, please get out of these sect called emerging village and go and read your bible and repent together with your leaders.

[zanaton]

@kanenguez15 thanks for your comment. I dont know if you watched the video, but it is not an ad for the emerging church, its only a presentation of different views about the emerging church. Some of the comments in the video are similar to your own. But I for one do not agree with you. I have by the way read my bible and repented and it caused me to draw closer to some of the ideas and lives represented in this video. So be carefull when asking people to read their bible:)

[john146only]

@zanaton I think you can easily cut to the chase and read Brian McLaren's A New Kind of Christianity and Jesus Secret Message and then look at history prior to WW 2 and what the church did co-opting with the Government and you will see a much more sinister plot and here we go around the rosey. Same deal, same outcome to have the church become less about Jesus, more about the social gospel, support the state and nationalism ( in this case globalism) as they try to recreate a new faith and utopia

[john146only]

@kanenguez15 I tried to stomach A New Kind of Christianity, by B McLaren and I just couldn't do it. My husband made it all the way through and flag a million pages that were heretical, inconsistent, illogical, irrational, foolish, lacking wisdom, full of examples of nonsense and straw men like crazy! IT was a horrible book, a horrible premise, written by a man making a lot of money of this garbage and it is sad! I think you can see the inception of the Revelation 17 whore who worships all.

[john146only]

@kanenguez15 I tried to stomach A New Kind of Christianity, by B McLaren and I just couldn't do it. My husband made it all the way through and flaged a million pages that were heretical, inconsistent, illogical, irrational, foolish, lacking wisdom, full of examples of nonsense and straw men like crazy! IT was a horrible book, a horrible premise, written by a man making a lot of money of this garbage and it is sad! I think you can see the inception of the Revelation 17 whore who worships all.

[BearGirl26]

Oh gosh, I wish there was an Emerging Church in my area. I love churches that encourage Biblical debates and questioning and all that. =D I have no idea why people are calling it a "cult" or claim that these people are of the devil. xD

[NewScarlett]

Sad enought, that you haven`t, Girl!

Take a Bible if you have one, and read it and than read and listen to Mac Lalls fals teachings, his esoteric and buddism religios-mix...

[jarrbear05]

The emergent church is like trying to nail jello to a wall...you can't define it and so you can't argue much against it. It ranges from McLaren (who calls God a "chick") to Rob Bell (who is smart enough to avoid labels, for fear of backlash from conservatives). It is at best a naive way to look at Christianity and at worse non-Christians who are destroying their religion. Mostly, it is conforming to the culture ("Christianity for a postmodern world"), dangerous unto itself.

[john146only]

@jarrbear05 Though they write books and construct a worldview with the names of their influences and they are not able to hide forever by obsuring their believes when they clearly define them in their speeches and writtings. Lables can be denied and some people lack critical thinking skills, but whether they refuse lables and play games with logic and reasoning, we still have the ability to understand why worldview they are touting. A New Spirituallity where all paths can lead to "god" is a strt

[NewScarlett]

The dreams of perfect church -emerging church - of McLaren and others will end with their waking up in HELL!

Sweet dreams, McLaren...

[zanaton]

I would like to quote something Mclaren wrote a couple days ago about people who write the way you do.

"What do you do with this kind of talk in the name of Jesus Christ and "righteous Christians?" Only one thing: don't respond to hate with hate, disdain with disdain, insult with insult, damnation with damnation ... but receive every "hit" with love and respond with love and blessing.When I do so, I realize that this person loves God (as he/she understands God)" Grace to you!

[NewScarlett]

No, zanato....this means people, who are no christians. McLaren calls himself a christian. He is a kind of antichrist, and his way is much worser, than the way of an atheist or something. He practise esoteric, magic and buddhism. And in the name of the Lord as a christian I have to say it clearly!! I personaly would like to wish him all the worsest things, but as a christ, I do not...! I hope, he comes to see the wrong teaching of himself and turnes to Jesus.

[zanaton]

Thanks for your thoughts. My understanding of antichrist as you call Mclaren is someone who is against Christ...Anti Christ. My understanding of Mclaren is that he is very for christ. He loves christ, he promotes Christ and works for the advancement of Gods kingdom here on earth. I would take a closer look at his teaching, I cant find any basis for your arguments in Mclarens though and teachings. Anyways, thanks for your thoughts and comments. Peace and Grace to you!

[NewScarlett]

Sorry, but I haven't got the time to give some of the most known nubiblical words of McLall to you. But you can search yourself, there are al lot of books about EC and I have heard a line of serious pastors to this theme just a week ago. MC Lall believes not in Jesus al the ONLY Way. he is a kind of ersoteric pope. If you call yourself a chirst, you would see it...

[john146only]

@zanaton Anti means against & in place of. Read all the things that BL has written including A New Kind of Christianity. The Jesus that he desires is anything but the one that scripture portrays. He is constructing through his own subjective, flawed human perception a new Christianity w/ a new Christ, who's an imposter,& against the authentic one. He/they is being used to draw hearts& minds away in the pursuit of a man-made government socialistic utopia that will fail as shown in Rev, esp ch 17.

[john146only]

@NewScarlett I think it makes perfect sense that the Whore that John say in that vision in Revelation 17 that is called the Mother of HArlots and is covered with names are all the names of the false gods that all the world worships IN the name of Jesus, like the Emergent church is fashioning as they construct Missional thinking or bring the false back into the melting pot and calling it holy. I think you are correct in your assesments & I think many today are tares & not wheat. BL is antichrist

[stonissecond]

you pharisee!

[NewScarlett]

is that all people like Mc Lall and you have to say...? How poor! lol!!

Read the bible and books from your Mc Lall and others, and you will perhaps - if you are a christian - see the mistakes and Antichrist-esoteric behavior of shit Emenergent Church.

[bcullimore]

You attack the Emergent Church for being un-Christian and it's "antichrist-esoteric behaviour", yet you swear in the process of doing so? Please, less hypocrisy.

[NewScarlett]

I dont give a damn about you boy and other boys and gays from emergent ....to hell with emergent - self choosen lol.

[bcullimore]

Wow. I'm in absolute shock. I shall pray for you NewScarlett and hope to God that you can learn to love and understand, like you should.

God bless!

[razzzrally]

Rob Bell: Faith without works is dead, but Works without faith is also dead, just like it is useless to shovel dirt around the base of that three like you were doing. You can be 10x times better then Mother Theresa in your works, but if you dont have faith in Jesus Christ, it is useless. Tony Jones: Fashion a beautiful Christianity? The only beauty in christinanity is Christ & His love expressed on the cross for us sinners. That's enough to motivate me for all the rest of my life.Dont need couch

[greatsea]

There is an evangelical semiotic barrier between non-Christians and Christ that is blocking the way. What emergents have done is declare a moratorium on standard rhetoric, not because it's not true, but because it has become needlessly obstructionist. The Son of God clears away these stones and says follow me, uncompromising as ever. The way is still narrow, just not narrow-minded. But emergents do need to beware of pride and license. Uncle Screwtape is not just a fictional character.

[BloodStainedLamb]

The emerging church is a dangerous movement for the following reasons: first they teach Universalism which means everybody goes to heaven. Secondly they teach there is no hell. Thirdly they believe that the atonement isn't the main message of Jesus. Fourthly they believe the Bible to be incomprehensible. fifthly they believe homosexuality to be fine and feel that the book of Romans should be taken out of our Bibles. This isn't Christianity!

[Adelina1389]

Amen! God bless you for telling the truth! People do not play with the truth-your eternity is in danger!

[bcullimore]

For starters, you do realise that the early church taught Universal Reconciliation? I don't blame you for the views you hold, I blame the messy and hate-filled modern Christianity that 99% of "Christians" follow. We need to take Christianity back to what it was at the beginning and begin asking questions and learning once again.

[BloodStainedLamb]

"For starters, you do realise that the early church taught Universal Reconciliation?"

Who..?

[bcullimore]

Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian, for example.

Four of the six theological schools of thought in ancient Christendom supported universalism. It can be said that universalism was the primary doctrine of the church before it was forcibly stamped out by the Catholic Church in the sixth century.

[BloodStainedLamb]

Do you believe that Christ is subordinate to God and do you believe in the incarnation of Christ?

[bcullimore]

This isn't about me, I'm afraid. Let's stay on topic, please!

[BloodStainedLamb]

(1.)

The reason I asked you if you believed that Christ is subordinate to God and whether you agreed that the incarnation of Christ never happened is because these are a few more heretical teachings that the Church fathers you listed believed at the time. Most of the contemporaries of Clement of Alexandria, Origen, St. Gregory etc.., completely disagree with them on this. These church fathers included Justin Martyr, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Tertullian to name a few. See the link I sent you.

[BloodStainedLamb]

(2.)

You also need to take into consideration that at this time the biblical canon had not yet been formed and Im sure you can imagine how much easier it would be to hold to a Universalist view without the book of Revelation.

[BloodStainedLamb]

(3.)

I can understand why people want to believe that everybody goes to heaven. The doctrine of hell is the most difficult doctrine Christians face. I dont like it at all, it depresses me. But just because something is hard to deal with it doesnt make it not true. There are many church fathers who had peculiar doctrines, but this is why they were weeded out and excommunicated. Telling people that hell does not exist is Satans job.

[BloodStainedLamb]

(4.)

I suggest that you listen to the free seminary courses I sent you on church history which might help you understand the subject a little more. Telling people that there is no hell because a few of the Church fathers thought so is extremely dangerous for your welfare and the welfare of those people no matter how comforting it may sound.

[BloodStainedLamb]

(5.)

Does not the doctrine of there being no hell completely minimize the atonement of Christ? If there is no hell then why the hell follow Christ? Its a free pass to ignore the 10 Commandments, live as you wish and reap the benefits of salvation.

[BloodStainedLamb]

(6.)

Concerning in your comments about todays messy and hate filled modern Christianity. I can understand why one would make such a comment. I agree that there are many Christians who live as though they are hate filled by freely condemning people to hell. But if they were actually in the Word they would quickly realize they are only condemning themselves and the Bible speaks clearly that it is not for man to judge who goes to heaven or hell but it is God who is judge.

[BloodStainedLamb]

(7.)

We need to take Christianity back to what it was at the beginning and begin asking questions and learning once again.

Are you aware of how many different denominations of Christianity there is? This was the problem before the Catholic Church took control. And now after the Reformation we are back to where we were before. You have more freedom now with all the writings from church history and a full biblical canon than any of the early Church fathers did.

[BloodStainedLamb]

(8.)

Theologians have been studying church history for years and yet they all seem to miss Unitarian theology. Are you suggesting that they are all stupid hate filled Christians foaming at the mouth because they love the thought of people in torment forever? Are they all holding fast to a conspiracy to scare people into religion? Or could be that the doctrine of hell is biblical and Jesus wanted us to know that it was a consequence for unrighteous living?

[daveme7]

@BloodStainedLamb Yes, he was subordinate to God. Some have a hard time with this and when seeing the scriptures should ot. In many passages especially Philippians 2 speaks of humbeling oneself when it is not wrong to claim equality-Christ as our example to esteem those weaker, not as smart or whatever comparisons if you want to be like Christ-those not as good for whatever reason are to be lifted above ourselves and be of no reputation. Saying this, I think this is a boit doifferent then what

[daveme7]

@BloodStainedLamb When seeing Philippians 2, I think what you are stating is not the same as where I am going but some how-I can only think of PHi 2 teaching Christ humbled himself whenhe was in fact equal with God. Sorry, seeing this, thisis what I think of andam sure you had a different ideal of equality and probably Trinitarian beliefs which I also believe.

[daveme7]

@bcullimore When Alexander and Antioch were sacked seeing many persecuted by Roman emporers(before Constatine's supposed conversion) as much has been lost because of this. Of course me, I wander why a restorationist viewpoint is taight when only Cults for the most purpose use this method so as to claim the bible today does not teach the originally given gospel as everyone points to Catholicism and restpored in this day and age-can never think of the emergent church nothing less than a cult

[KnowWhatIsTrue]

Emergent philosophy is witchcraft - At it's core is rebellion against The Word of God (Jesus). It's blaspheme

[zanaton]

Hi there KnowWhaIsTrue,Thanks for your comment. what exactly is witchcraft, and what is blaspheme?

[Adelina1389]

Amen!! I agree-I am sure that God agrees to-the Bible agrees with it, too!

[jarrbear05]

I'm being "straightforward" as well. When you leave it open to interpretation whether Jesus is the only way to heaven, you are NOT a Christian. It dismisses what Christianity means. Jesus didn't agree with the Pharisees theologically...he blatantly told them they were wrong and misinterpreting God's laws. "The Sabbath if made for man, man is not made for the Sabbath."

[zanaton]

good thanks. Here you can find some thoughts of where the theology and ideas of the Emerging church first started.Way back to a disciple of Polycarp who again was the disciple of John,the discipe of Jesus. Would love to hear your thoughts on some of the concepts presented. danielkorolcom/blog/?p=166 (you need to put in the dot before the com:))

[jarrbear05]

"I am the way and the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but through me"??? Wow! Arrogant. Absurd. But He was speaking the truth. You can't just tell people "Jesus is who the Bible says He is"...that is the Christian version of post-modernism.

[zanaton]

Thanks again for your comments.Jesus certainly was at times straightforward, but I wouldn't agree on calling "straightforward" for arrogant. Jesus never used the word garbage on anyone's religious view, what he did however was,react against"in a very strong manner"the way people lived out their religious views.Jesus believed pretty much the same stuff the pharisees believed theologically,but he certainly didn't agree with how they lived their lives and how they expected others to live like them.

[jarrbear05]

My view is that Jesus is the sole and only way to heaven. This is what the Bible says...to not believe it is fine, but don't call yourself a Christian. It's fine for them to have a different view, but when a view assumes leadership position in the Church and waters down Christian beliefs, it is hurting it. Jesus certainly WOULD and DID call many different views garbage; and I'm sure that He and his followers were called arrogant and worse.

[jarrbear05]

What a bunch of garbage. First, our purpose here is what the Bible says...but mostly it IS to be "aliens" to the world and to save as many as we can. Second, you can't just say "Jesus is who the Bible says he is" because people don't know what that is. The emerging church needs to acknowledge that Jesus is the sole and only way to heaven; this is arrogant, but that is what He said, and that is who he is.

[zanaton]

Thanks for your comment. I would suggest that, the fact that people have a different view than you(now I didnt really get what your view was)should be stimulating and good for you and them. But the moment you call other peoples view garbage kind of makes it hard for those people to be able to talk back to you. If you want to follow Jesus, which seems a wish of yours, then being arrogant as you call yourself probably is not the first or best place to start.

/Daniel

[BloodStainedLamb]

hi Daniel,

Do you hold the view that Jesus is not the only way to eternal salvation? Would you agree that a good Buddhist has just as much as a chance to get to heaven as a Bible believing Christian?

[kingdomtheology]

good question, i think that the real question is, did Jesus come to atone us from our personal sin, or did he come to usher in the kingdom of God(heaven on earth), and while doing so he conquered the power of sin and death?

[daveme7]

@kingdomtheology Sorry for taking so long. The first prophesy of Christ came immidiately at the fall of Adam and Eve. Most prophecies in the old testament are about the death of Christ for sins. His very appearing as a God-Man(between this and the bible as the only ideal of incarnation taught in nthe bible) is very specific to the ideal of taking the wrath of sin for us. There was no other purpose so as to bring in his kingdom and by the way took the wrath of God for sin.

[daveme7]

@kingdomtheology Of course when Christ taught in Mark 1:15 seeing John the forunner preaching the remission of sins and repentance. When Christ came, he was baptized(maybe a foreshadow as the God-Man he would die on the cross). When John was jailed, Christ announced his kingdom by preaching to repent and believe the gospel. So when Christ appears and announces his kingdom, I am trying to figure out where his kingdom has nothing to do with the gospel of Christ. Christ came to ssave sinners!