Kent versus Murray on Iran's Nuclear Ambitions

[rickelmonoggin]

I'm not, but you certainly seem to be my friend. Pearl Harbour was attacked in 1941. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed with nuclear weapons in 1945. There is also evidence that the US used 'battlefield' nuclear weapons in Iraq in the last decade.

I don't see how it matters if a country is nominally secular or not. I judge them ultimately on their actions.

[rickelmonoggin]

@rickelmonoggin As for Christians, if you're ignorant of the last 2000 years of murders, massacres, ethnic cleansings, invasions, etc etc carried out by them, then there is not a lot that I can do for you, apart from suggest that you read some history.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin You have a very vague and selective sense of history. This is an argument I encounter time and time again - people who are absolutely CERTAIN that Christianity has a history of violence unparalleled in other time or place. This is of course, ridiculous. Every society and culture has been responsible for violence and aggression but you paint a picture as Christians as sole perpetrators. This whole relativist argument is absurd and should be thrown in the trash where it belongs.

[rickelmonoggin]

@CMTours732 Well not really, it's you who has an extremely vague and selective view of history. It's incredible that you've manage to read about history without coming across any atrocities carried out by Christian nations.

Presumably you do what you've been doing tonight on this thread, and just go into denial about it.

The difference between me and you is that I'm willing to see all sides of an argument and confront the facts. You just believe what you want to believe.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin Actually, I didn't deny them at all. All I'm saying is that it's a moot point which bears no relevance. We're talking about Iran obtaining nuclear weapons, and somehow the history of Christianity is relevant? It's a typical debating tactic which changes the foundations of the argument by inserting some kind of moral relativism in an attempt to prove a point.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin Where the heart of the Islamic world today was once the heart of Christendom and was taken by conquest. The five holy sees of Christendom were Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Rome. The first four were all conquered by jihad armies and triumphalist Mosques built in the place of Churches and Basilicas. The history of Islam is one of violence, expansion and conquest, and the subduing of non-Muslims under the discriminatory 'dhimmi' status.

[rickelmonoggin]

@CMTours732 Once again, read you history, and you'll find that almost all nations and religious groups have done that at one stage or another.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin Rather than telling me to 'read you history' and making extremely vague references to pretty much nothing, why don't you make a real point?

[rickelmonoggin]

@CMTours732 Why don't you?

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin The bombs were dropped in order to end the war. My point is that you ignore Japanese aggression at Pearl Harbour which was the first provocation of the USA, and you also ignore how militarized Japan was or any of the atrocities committed by the Japanese. This whole argument is just astonishingly stupid and bears no relevance to the current situation in Iran and the Middle East. It's a secular nation and I don't see how Christianity has ANYTHING to do with it.

[rickelmonoggin]

@CMTours732 Actually, I didn't ignore Japanese aggression, I just don't agree that the mass slaugher of civilians is somehow 'just retaliation' against Japans attack against America's military installation at Pearl Harbour. The original point, however was simply to inform you that only the USA has ever actually been willing to use a nuclear bomb, so you should reflect on that before making accusations about anyone else.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin So? I was in a completely different time, place and circumstance - what relevance does this have to Iran? It's this ridiculous moral relativism - it's okay for Iran to get nukes because after all, America has them, and they actually used them, so whose to say?

I am far more concerned about an oppressive dictatorial Islamic theocracy which hates Israel and sponsors terrorists than the USA using nuclear weapons at this point in time.

[rickelmonoggin]

@CMTours732 So-you concede that Christians have carried out horrendous atrocities-that was my point.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin But a pointless concession. Christians have 'carried out horrendous atrocities'. Okay, here are your Nukes Iran.

[rickelmonoggin]

@CMTours732 Not pointless at all. It's important that you be made to face the truth about Christianity, and I applaud you for being big enough to do that.

[rickelmonoggin]

Respond to this video... Of course you're not concerned with the US attacking anyone. You don't mind other people being killed, oh no!

[rickelmonoggin]

By the standards that you set, no country is fit to have nuclear weapons. The Koran is no less violent in its teachings than are Christianity and Judaism, and religious extremists of those persuasions hold considerable power in those countries that already have nuclear weapons. So far you have failed to make a convincing case that Iranians are somehow less trustworthy than them-indeed you have simply drawn attention to the similarities between judeo-Christian fundamentalists and Islamic ones.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin 'The Koran is no less violent in its teachings than are Christianity and Judaism' This is an absolute load of rubbish. The Koran is FULL of violence; the violent verses supersede the peaceful ones, and the violent ones are more numerous. Chapter 9 outlines the relationship between believers and non-believers (incidentally the most violent and bellicose), and stipulates that it is the Muslims' duty to wage war (jihad) against the unbeliever until they covert or submit, paying the

[rickelmonoggin]

@CMTours732 You've not read the bible then?

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin (continued) jizya tax until they 'feel themselves subdued'. You clearly have no knowledge of the Koran, the Bible, or the Torah, and find that it suits your ridiculous agenda to lump them all together as equally violent. Sorry, but this is absurd. Not only do the teachings differ radically, but it was not Jews who flew planes into the twin towers or Christians who blew up the London underground buses. It is not Buddhists slaughtering Hindus in India or Animists in south Sudan.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin Those western countries are secular. There's simply no case for the ridiculous assertion that there's a bunch of wacko Christian fundamentalists who are going to start firing off nukes for the hell of it. Where does this come from? On the other hand, Iran is an Islamic theocracy, which is extremely hostile to Israel. It would not be in anyone's interests to allow them to obtain nukes.

[rickelmonoggin]

@CMTours732 For your information, Iran hasn't invaded anyone since the 18th century. The only country to ever use nuclear weapons in wartime is the USA. The lie that Christians aren't capable of horrendous violence themselves is easily disproven.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin Iran has changed a lot since 1979. Have you heard of the Iranian revolution? The USA is a secular constitution. Why does the USA using nuclear weapons in retaliation to Pearl Harbour somehow reflect badly on Christians in general? Are you stupid?

[rickelmonoggin]

If the Iranian leaders really didn't care about committing suicide then they could just have attacked other countries with the weapons that they already have. You have failed to present a convincing case that Iran wants to attack anyone.

[rickelmonoggin]

Big deal if Iran gets nukes.

North Korea has nukes and it's the craziest country in the world-yet even it hasn't fired them at anyone. I think it's foolish to suggest that just because Iran gets nukes it's going to use them; what possible reason have they got for using them?

[trailofdeadpeople]

@rickelmonoggin - there is a diference I'd say. North Korea is almost isolated, with China as its questionable ally. The 'demilitarized zone at the 38th parallel has US troops on guard - Kim Jong Il woldn't think of starting a conflict with them; as history often idicates leads to defeat. The Commnist Party also isn't interested in expansionism - it only wants to promote propoganda within it's own boarders (and done a pretty good job), ready for war shold it be "initiated" by the South.

[rickelmonoggin]

@trailofdeadpeople So much for your differences! All those things you claim for North Korea, apply equally to Iran:

Iran isn't interested in expansionism either. (It hasn't invaded anyone since the 18th century!)

If Iran were to attack anyone, it would likely end badly for it since it's surrounded by nuclear armed countries (Israel, Russia, as well as the US presence).

Ok, make the case that Iran would use nukes, but don't expect me to accept it without some strong proof backing your argument.

[trailofdeadpeople]

@rickelmonoggin - Iran on the other hand barely holds the mass support of its own country. The minority of stupid (but powerful and forceful) islamisists have explicitly stated their genocidal, antisemitic and expansionist agenda. Nuclear arms will not only put to bed the promising democratic movement in Iran, but undoubtedly blackmail the west in its disease-like imperialism of neighbouring states. Communists know the consequences - uneducated, superstitious loons do not.

[rickelmonoggin]

@trailofdeadpeople I don't see why it follows that obtaining nuclear weapons should stiffle the development of democracy in Iran. Having nuclear weapons didn't stop the communist government in Russia being deposed.

[lauraleesmithagain]

@rickelmonoggin I think we can both agree that the ideology that runs the Iranian Gov't is much more of a threat than Russia's communism. Islamists yearn to die in the name of allah. Palestine launches rockets into Isreal that compared to Isreal's firepower can be likened to sticks & stones. Yet they continue fighting and continue strapping bomb belts to themselves & to their children...Which they have many of because men can have up to 4 wives...so they never run out of kids to blow up.

[rickelmonoggin]

@lauraleesmithagain

No, I don't agree with that at all. Iran hasn't attacked anyone since the 18th century. Soviet Russia had an aggressive expansionist policy for much of its existence.

The incoherence and confusion of your argument is exemplified by the manner in which you move seamlessly between talking about the Iranians to talking about the Palestinians as if they are the same country.

[lauraleesmithagain]

@rickelmonoggin The weakness of YOUR argument can be seen by how much space u use to insult me rather than provide facts. Anyone that isn't a moron knows that the comparison between the two countries had to do with islam & not geography. And no matter how much you try to twist it- the fact is the Iran has publically denied the holocaust & has publically supported the annialation is Isreal...Those are not the kind of people u want having nukes. Period.

[rickelmonoggin]

@lauraleesmithagain You seem a rather sensitive type. If you really can't bear criticism, I suggest you don't offer an opinion. Playing the victim really isn't going to impress anyone. the notion that anyone who disagrees with your world view is a peculiar notion.

Certainly, there's nothing intelligent about spreading scare stories such as you have done in your previous post.

[DancinJim]

@rickelmonoggin Sorry, but the other poster is absolutely correct. Iran is a danger. It is as obvious as the sun is to heatstroke. The Western world, for all its foibles, would not use a nuclear weapon unless attacked by someone else's nuclear weapon. They cannot trust a country like Iran to be that responsible. This is mainly because if we are honest, fanaticism in countries like this is dominant. They are not to be trusted.

[rickelmonoggin]

@DancinJim Iran hasn't attacked anyone since the 18th century. compare with other nuclear armed countries like the US, UK, France, Israel and China who have a massive record of belligerence in comparison-add to the fact that the US has actually USED nuclear weapons against another country.

The argument that Iran is somehow less trustworthy than any of the above countries can only be based on bigotry and racism.

[DancinJim]

@rickelmonoggin I think you're missing the point. It's not about whether Iran has attacked someone. It's about whether Iran is trustworthy; and there is no racism involved in this judgement of them. They are untrustworthy, they hold ideals that are incompatible and threatening to the Western world, their leader is closer to that of a dictator than a President; and their continuous refusal to conform to the International arms agreements casts utter doubt over their trustworthiness.

[DancinJim]

@rickelmonoggin Also, the fact is that Iran's leaders (and leaders of other still developing countries in their part of the world) are religious fanatics. It is not racist to point out that although many of the people living in Iran are good people, the fanatical approach their countries' leaders adopt is a danger, because they believe whatever they do is their God's will. That's a danger, as if they believe they will go to paradise, launching a nuke becomes less of a grave situation to them.

[rickelmonoggin]

@DancinJim If we're talking about the trustworthiness of Iran not to attack anyone, the fact that they haven't attacked anyone since the 18th century is perfectly pertinent.

There may well be no shortage of religious nutters in Iran-so what. The same can equally be said for other countries with nuclear weapons.

[DancinJim]

@rickelmonoggin It's just one aspect of a debate about their trustworthy nature; and in my opinion the least pertinent. Religious fanaticism is by far a more important factor - and this isn't just restricted to Iran. Any country that takes the violent passages in the Qu'ran so literally is a danger, and not just in terms of nuclear war. Religious fanaticism in government, or in public, always poses a huge threat.

[rickelmonoggin]

@DancinJim Do you seriously think that if Iran got a nuclear weapon it would immediately use it? They may be many things, but they aren't stupid. They know that that would simply guarantee their own annihilation. Note that North Korea is run by someone even more crazy than anyone in Iran, yet they haven't used their nukes that they actually have.

The reason Iran wants nuclear weapons is because it is the only thing that will guarantee their security against attacks by other countries.

[DancinJim]

@rickelmonoggin Your wording is very specific. I don't think they'd 'immediately' use it, but I do think they would be more likely to use one in the future. Any country where people live and die by the teachings of a violent religious text, is not fit to own a weapon that threatens the world's safety. As I said before, starting a nuclear war won't ring alarm bells to those who believe they will go to paradise, in the same way it would in the West. I don't think NK should be allowed WMDs either.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin Or based on the nutcases who run an oppressive Islamic theocracy and want to have Israel wiped off the map at any cost?

[rickelmonoggin]

@CMTours732 The claim that Iran wants Israel 'wiped off the map' has been debunked as no more than a piece of anti-Iranian propaganda. It's impossible to take you seriously if your argument is based on a lie.

[CMTours732]

@rickelmonoggin Iran have made their desire to destroy Israel repeatedly obvious, and they sponsor Hezbollah who shares that aim.

[aziz2085]

there is no country at present on this planet which adheres to strict islam law or interpertation, saudi arabia a great friend of america is almost never in the news and dont blame us blame your friends the americans who deliberately dont show there friends in bad light lol. pakistan and all other countries have a pop culture attitude to life, u have seen it but still insist on this notion of all muslims want sharia law lol. no education even if u have been to oxford.

[aziz2085]

muslim haters or islamic haters have failed to understand that more inocent muslims have died due to this war on terror than any other nationality from the west. but you want us to look at the 3000 who died in 911 what about the million plus in iraq. if the war in iraq is a fraud then every death is a responsibilty of the wests. im not gonna side with anyone on this issue.

[TissuePrices]

murray u muslim basher u not aware that israel is in the middle east and already has nukes and is illegla occupying its neighbours, if u werent such a muslim basher u could see this, tosser

[Hereticalable]

@TissuePrices - Call people Muslim basher as much as you like...the Koran has been bashing non-Muslims for 1400 years, Muslims have been killing non-Muslims for 1400 years...we're bashing back now and Muslims don't like it when we play by the same rules as them do they?

[TissuePrices]

zzzzzz

yes muslims have military bases in 64 ccountries, they occupy countries by force, they prop up dictators all over the world to suit them.................ur getting muslims confused with the usa

[Hereticalable]

The thing is...the West is objectively "better" the Islamic world. We invent medicines which all people benefit from. The Internet, jet engines and advanced farming. We give far more to charity than the Islamic world.

I'm generalising of course - but the fact is the Islamic world hasn't done anything to contribute to a better world since the late middle ages on any scale worth mentioning.

Oh and most of the middle east was previosly christian...Muslims occupied it, same with turkey and Iran.

[TissuePrices]

and whos fault is this? could it be the dictators america supports?

as christianity its a dying religion give it another 100yrs it wont be around, just a be remembered as a commerical scam

[Hereticalable]

@TissuePrices - it's America's fault that all of north africa was invaded and Islamified in the 8th century?

It's America's fault that the Turks annexed Greek speaking anatolia?

It's America's fault Arab Muslims invaded Iran and proceeded to destroy native Iranian culture and religion?

Don't get me wrong, I think America's support of some countries is wrong...but it's not America's fault the Islamic world hasn't invented anything meangful since the 1500s is it?

[TissuePrices]

pointless talking to a muslim basher, a complely irrational imbocile.

[Hereticalable]

@TissuePrices - "Muslim basher"? Why is it that we can criticise or even mock any other ideology on earth but as soon as you say something about Islam you're a Muslim basher or racist?

Seems more like a ploy to portray a black and white picture of the world with Muslims as perpetual victims and the big bad west as an evil empire than any kind of honest attempt to find the truth no matter how unpleasant or offensive.

What's an "imbocile" by the way?

[TissuePrices]

i call you a muslim basher, obviously the truth hurts

[Hereticalable]

I can see your intullectual honesty and debate skills far outweigh my own humble ability.

Can I call you names too or have you already "won"?

[TissuePrices]

lol you lost, thats the problem with muslim basher, they are irrational thinkers.

[Hereticalable]

I don't think you understand sarcasm...by name calling, poor spelling and stupid arguements you 'lost" before you started...

The mark of an educated mind is being able to entertain an idea without accepting it. You can't even hear debates about extreme forms of a religion without hurling abuse and calling people false names...this is the debate tactic of the imbecile and the uninformed.

To suggest that anyone who attacks an ideology is "irrational" says it all really...

[TissuePrices]

zzzz, more endless nonesense, typical brainwashed fox news listener.

[Hereticalable]

TissuePrices - you're the one displaying a brainwashed mentality not me. You haven't even responded in any meaningful way to anything I write - if anyone watches Fox News I'd say you fit the bill not me.

[TissuePrices]

haha u prick this comming from a guy supports the racist douglas murray.

[Hereticalable]

TissuePrices - it's obviously you're either retarded or perhaps still at school if you think Douglas Murray is racist.

I won't waste my time with you anymore...child.

[TissuePrices]

run away you coward, and while ur there try reading some of murrays stuff

hes a fan of gerd wilder a known islamaphobe, he himself says europe should be hostile towards muslims.

complete prick run like the bitch u are

[Hereticalable]

@TissuePrices - Being hostile to Islam as an ideology is not racism...racism is hating people simply because of their ancestry.

You're quite a nasty little person aren't you?

[TissuePrices]

zzzzz this is ur justfication for predjudice, and islam is a way of life not an ideology or did ur prejudice pinup murray teach u that aswell

[aziz2085]

its americas fault it invaded iraq and made a lie for the invasion. dont play clever coz americas penis is bigger than everyone elses. your a fool if to think americas or the wests favours upon man kind is an excuse for phoney wars for profits. free masons illuminati those are western secret society which western thinkers have said is responsible for more evil than islam. think again.

[Hereticalable]

aziz2085 - I was about to reply but then I saw you mentioned the freemasons and illuminati...I suppose next you will tell us about other "true" stories like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

I bet man never walked on the moon and the earth is hollow too right?

[aziz2085]

@Hereticalable , to be honest my point wasnt to raise this topic of masons etc, but to stress that if this was true as it is so documented over the decades, then all this historians who ever exposed this subject go easily and say that our present leaders and there tactics are soo evil that islam or its nations leaders are mere puppets of there master plan. which muslim leader is not controlled by the west. doesnt it occur u there is one pulling the shots.

[aziz2085]

the words free masons are mere words the secrets are so well exposed that one could just analyze key events and there results to quiet easily say the west and its control over the east is merely for its gain and it would make a million poor to do it.

[aziz2085]

well then has either black africa invented anything, or south american catholic nations. if you have invented something its only based on technology, for example the buildings in dubai are made by the british architects but the buildings are put together by pakistani ,indian builders who are there. so both go hand in hand, the man who co invented the usb was a indian ie wasnt a muslim but belonged to the same gentic pool of pakistanis. america is secular not christian. u cant compare.

[Hereticalable]

aziz2085 - Actually there are a number of African descendant inventors and a number of Nobel prize winners from Latin America.

If you've ever been to Dubai you'll notice how they treat their labourers and how disgusting it is...and most of the buildings leak when it rains - it's a joke to be honest.

You can compare...secular, religious or whatever...you can compare cultures and ideologies.

[aziz2085]

@Hereticalable , those inventions are the good for the sake of mankind. but over the thousands of years of life on earth all races and people gave something to there people. i see over all achievements not a divine thing but a thing in where a human beings brain is used to advance. most techonology is from the 50's and if you had lcd tv's now theres a chance we could of had them in the 60's as we did have email.

[aziz2085]

@Hereticalable. yes your correct and this point i have raised as a muslim by my self. although for the born emirates there is all these things in which us both stress over. but it hasnt yet come to the freedom of its workers due to them not gaining citizenship. soon they will be sent back and this is why there treatment is this way.

[aziz2085]

the west is better of course it is according to you, the east was like the west and no im not talking gay rights sex and peace, but its economy. u need to get it and take history in place the east at its high was like the present day america. times do change but as they do we automatically do the worst thing and call undeveloped people muslim or non as half breeds. very very wrong, because let me tell u whether im rich or poor if i raise my kids properly that would be the best thing for me.

[aziz2085]

the jews bashed jesus saying hes a bastard and mary a whore, the christians bash the jews for killing christ, the crusaders massacred jews for a living to cleanse the earth from the jesus killers.

[dmlauffer]

Iraq was only a shit show because the news made it so. It was a surge that ultimately was successful and was based on reasonable suspicions that Saddam had WMD's. French, Israeli intelligence, CIA, MI6 all reported they had wmd's, they had been disarmed of WMD's in the past. What more can you really ask for? And we're not certain they don't exist, we just haven't found them. The world is a better place without Saddam Hussein and would be a better place if Iran does not have nukes.

[aziz2085]

suspicion million of people died. u bastard.

[dmlauffer]

@aziz2085

I don't know what you are replying to, its probably an old comment since i don't even remember watching this video.

[aziz2085]

america has fucked up soo many times..esepcially regards to sadam having wmd's. america is being totally prejudiced and just bullies people. if the public wish to play side with the biggest dick in the world then go for it, but dont think its right.

[Hereticalable]

aziz2085 - America also gave more than a billion dollars to the UN world food program....half a billion more than the richest countries like Saudi Arabia. And the UAE only gave $50,000...less than most of it's people earn in a year.

Keep right on America bashing - and ignore all the other problems in the world - it's easier that way and you don't have to think.

Also it's safer, Americans don't kill you for insulting their culture, politics or beliefs...unlike some other people do.

[aziz2085]

yeh america gave money okay good. the uae is an american and british play ground whos money is invested there the most, your gaining from the emirates more than you think. the damage has been done your imperial powers have put into play and no matter how hard mexico tries it wont be as powerful as canada even though its next door to the usa too.lol

[aziz2085]

i dont bash americans i dont bash citizens i only bash right from wrong, ask me about pakistan and i will give you a mamoth list of the wrongs, im not a biast prick. you need to get off your ass and understand you are one man not an entire nation, use justice to judge each individiaul thing.

[aziz2085]

your killing shit loads of inocents in pakistan by blind folding and letting drones to the job. what a fucken insult u kill one militant and thousands of inocents, women babies children and then u say its war on terror. at least the 911 hijackers knew there targets.

[TissuePrices]

no they kill you for oil, land, & resources, how noble

[capitalsho]

Kent definatly should be in a lunatic asylum.

[aziz2085]

america has 65,000 nuclear missiles and can bomb the earth 30 times.. iran may or may not have a missile why is america so uptight about iran having one.  this is saying whites and christians and jews can have a missile to fight you with but you cant have one to fight us with. nazism is returning in different shades.

[WiredDragoon]

Even during the height of the Cold War the US did not have thise many warheads. Yes, *warheads*, not missiles, there is a difference. Today, there are less than 21,000 warheads *worldwide*, meaning from all nuclear powers combined, and you'd be hard-pressed to have even a quarter of them on missiles. Get your fact straight.

[aziz2085]

who said yours are correct. america has more nukes than anybody.

[WiredDragoon]

Stop talking out of your arse. The nation with the largest nuclear stockpile always has been and still is the Russian Federation, their stockpile being larger than that of the US and EVERY OTHER NUCLEAR POWER COMBINED. And, quite frankly, I'd really like you to explain me how non-proliferation relates to Nazism...^^

[1q2w3e2w3e4r]

lol @ shiftstart failing to be coherent. i think he got a bit excited writing his 50 comments....

[jedipauly]

I want Iran to get and use the bomb. Then we can nuke the shit out of all of them, Arabia Iran etc. There is no such thing as an innocent. Kill all the fuckers and let Allah sort them out! This is the position of the US and it's military. It's not mine, but it is the view of many generals. Just thought I would clear that up.

[aziz2085]

murray has the same view so whats the use in talking civalised, lets all be animals. religion isnt the criterion for good its humanity,

[popinjay3000]

iran 3rd world?? has anyone been to iran?

[redcollargedeon]

I have a coworker who came from Iran two years ago. He told me the average iranian never noticed the SANCTIONS imposed on Iran because...

THEY'RE STILL POOR AND HAVE NO JOBS.

But since I've never been there myself, you can call me racist right now and be done with it.

[shiftstart]

At some point in time you need to ask exactly how he falls in the conservative spectrum. Politically? Socially? If this man is the authority on morality, let him justify the process of nuclear first strike on a 3rd world country like Iran.

[Writer9107]

The fact that Iran is 3rd world country has nothing to do with whether we should consider striking their facilities. We only want to get rid of the nuclear facilties; who said anytihng about nuking Iran? You're putting words in Mr. Murray's mouth.

[shiftstart]

This wasn't his only opinion expressed publicly. Its sheer imperialism at its best when you try to force a 3rd world country under your military might. And do you believe by striking their nuclear facilities people won't get killed? How much of a Christian are you to even think about preemptive strike on a country? On this stage you are promoting aggression and war in the name of a radical ideology which is the most ungodly at best.

[Writer9107]

Actually, I'm not much of a Christian at all. I'm a Deist. I can tell now -- you're one of them Bible-thumping paleocons. Peh, you're just spouting scary words -- "ungodly" -- ooh, that brings me chills. Grow up.

[shiftstart]

That's what I figured a Deist. Another words you're a secularist pretending to be a Christian. No wonder you have no objections with warmongering just convince the world that you believe in God but do the Devils work. How far has the apple fallen from this tree. Anyone who needs to grow up is you. What's sad is you'll preach war but when it comes to fighting it you'll cower like your buddy Dougy here.

[shiftstart]

I'm not a big fan of this douche bag. He speaks like a realist but acts like an idealist. People who act on ideology are not to be trusted one bit. They just don't have any substance. My I also remind you that neo-cons are rooted to the old left ideology which strongly believes in a collectivist mindset and expansion and use of government power.

[Writer9107]

You say people "who act on ideology are not to be trusted one bit", but, whether you admit it or not, absolutely everyone acts on ideology. Our Founding Fathers were idealists. The Allies were idealist. The Nazis were idealist. Everyone is idealist.

[shiftstart]

I disagree. Our founding fathers were realists not idealists. After the British were kicked out of U.S. they didn't sit around and idealize how to conquer England or occupy the world. They new realistically they had achieved their goals of getting their independence. As for the Nazis and the communists well...they were idealists and look what they did to the world.

[Writer9107]

There are good idealists and bad idealists. Neoconservatism is not imperialism; read some neoconservative literature.

[shiftstart]

No thanks. Neo-conservatism is an abomination and has no place in the world of man. It's philosophically goes against rational and realism.

[weikko79]

Please elaborate.

[shiftstart]

The idea of making the world safer for Democracy is rooted from Trotsky's never ending revolution. It doesn't really answer what happens after the revolution has ended. Under whose flag are we suppose to fall under? (Globally that is). If you suggest everyone goes home after the revolution has ended or the world is "safer" for Democracy then what guarantee can anyone give that it truly is? Men inherently are violent, even when it comes to trying to make the world safer for Democracy.

[aziz2085]

there is always issues its all bs

[shiftstart]

So the big question is who makes certain that after the never ending revolution finally ends, people will be following a westernized philosophical view? U.S.? British? NATO? U.N? If it falls under one country lets call it imperialism. If it falls under U.N., let's call it one world government. People like Dough Murray are manifesto of the old left. They don't sit around and try to explain the aftermath they just ramble on of a utopian society something Carl Marx use to write.

[shiftstart]

The world is clearly black and white to people like Murray. Rational and realism is the last of his problem. He will not explain why we shouldn't do but rather why we should do. After all it's easier to push a glass of the counter and break it then ask why you about to break it are. The difference between Marx and the greater society versus Murray is the class system. Murray some how still believe in the class structure but Marx did not.

[redcollargedeon]

Bullies don't stop unless you physically stop them. Name-calling doesn't stop a bully.

Hitler could have been stopped much sooner and many millions of lives would have been saved.

[shiftstart]

Hitler could have been stopped much sooner? I think not. Like today's U.S., Germany was getting great deal of international funding for his coming war. The intention wasn't to stop Hitler until the war was very much underway. After all once you prop up one country the investors could now prop another country to defeat the big "bully". In the end millions die but few investors become billionaires. I highly recommend getting a job in the banking industry since you get to have the last laugh.

[WiredDragoon]

I'd really like to see sources for the claim that the Reich "was getting great deal of international funding for the [] coming war".

[shiftstart]

WiredDragoon,

After WW1, the Treaty of Versailles virtually had made Germany a bankrupt nation. If Germany were to pay off (taking into account inflation) it would have taken Germany until 1988 to pay it off. It wasn't till 1932 same time as Hitler and the Nazis that the treaty was removed. There are countless books as to who financed Hitlers. I suggest you do your own research. The Rothschild of England as well as industrial leaders like Henry Ford, Prescott Bush and average citizens.

[aziz2085]

prescott allowed the deal of supplying arms to hitler, hitler gaining power was funded by jewish bankers, how on earth did he manage to finance his projects from measily tax payers money. the same organisations who financed the iraq also helped hitler, helping hitler managed to throw out the comfortable jews of germany who didnt wish to go to a place called israel as they lived in germany for decades.

[Writer9107]

douglas murray rocks! If I were a British citizen, I'd elect him to be PM!

[rambo26]

I'm undecided about action to take, but using force to defend our moral superiority should not be ruled out

[jackiebaron]

Douglas Murray is an gutless, effette little schoolboy always willing to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood. I can just see him in his bedroom pulling the wings off flies and doing his best Hitler impersonations in the mirror and vowing sweet revenge on his classmates for ridiculing him before mummy calls him down to tea. Wanker!

[Chordiegurl]

Oh my you are right - he's a real life Severus Snape!

[h1satsu]

Douglas Murray is superb.

[d1974]

I think you are a fool if you can't discern that nowadays saying something like what Murray is saying is very hazardous to one's life and limb.

You should envy the size of his balls.

[aziz2085]

murray hasnt any balls, murray is supporting the very thing he hates on the iranian side.

[d1974]

Please explain

[aziz2085]

ok there is no way u can kill 1 billion muslims nor does the west wish to. its western imperialism at its best to extend ones empire but at what cost. most wars the past 30 years have been bullying tactics. and when one issues ends another will begin. the west has exellent media which can alter any perception, i mean you dont actually belive the middle east is a different planet do u where ppl lack feelings and human characteristics.

[d1974]

I happen to live in the ME and I know more than I would like about its inhabitants. I see you perceive the world's history as an aggressive, expansionist west vs victimized Islamic world.

You could not be more mistaken, I'm afraid, but I guess it has something to do with your education and the society you came from- a society that self criticism is not one of its strong points.

Hope some day you'll learn to see things as they are and not as your culture wants u 2 c them.

[aziz2085]

im from great britain and im not botherd about debating religion because in islam it says before you engage in religious debate one should look upon himself on what he does in his religion. as i said im a owner of a limited company i enggae with jews christians all the time. this is reality the religion doesnt make u good humanity does. i see some west vs islamic world but not all. how can i attack my friends my teachers my colleuges. not all germans are nazis is the way i see things.

[WiredDragoon]

The West's "excellent media" is, as proven by truly countless studies, dominantly left-wing and as such not really easily manipulated into any kind of jingoistic sentiment. And what's with the "1 billion muslims" thing?

[aziz2085]

the wests media isnt excellent its a very big powerful tool which has developed its foundation with the likes of cnn fox. and we all know who runs these. not all media is bad but when its to do with the government then it becomes there tool. media it self was boosted to great heights firstly to benefit the governence of governments. when party funders are from the same sources you become dependent on them. this is why all political parties r the same coz there funders r the same.

[WiredDragoon]

Turner runs CNN and Murdoch runs Fox. And how exactly is the media the tool of "the government"? 90% of the time the government is walking on eggshells *because* of the media's influence. Do you really think there would have been the massive dissent at home and the massively negative reporting about the conflict in Iraq if the media was under any kind of serious government control? Come on, you're surely smarter than that!?

[aziz2085]

@WiredDragoon , for someone who doesnt realise that both fox news and cnn are not only owned by zionists, plz note i didnt say zionist jews i said zionist. the whole issue and point of the war in iraq is to ensure the safety of israel and to increase the life of western imperialism. now if thats a bad thing only the people on the opposite side are saying. but if your an american and a israeli sympathiser of course these 2 causes are justified even if iraq was a fraud.

[WiredDragoon]

Please explain to me how bankrupting the sole remaining *Western* superpower increases the life of *Western Imperialism*, I'd really like to hear your explanation for that one. And the invasion of Iraq was to help Israel's security? How, exactly? You do realize the Israelis did not consider Iraq any kind of a serious threat after 1991? Think what you may about Israeli intelligence services, but one can hardly call them deaf and blind.

[aziz2085]

@WiredDragoon ...does money exist recession and the war cost 1 billion a day. give me a break now i know paper money is a joke. iraq was to convert from dollars to euro. not to mention takign control of the price of oil. im not no articulate historian but i do know iraq is hell of alot worse and this is what my kurdish friends say who are enemies of sadamm.

[WiredDragoon]

Your comment doesn't make any sense, so I will repeat my question: How does bankrupting the sole remaining *Western* superpower increase the life of *Western Imperialism*? How does driving the price of oil through the roof support *Western Imperialism* even though it's the highly developed Western economies who suffer the most from high gasoline and transport prices? I would respect you more, if you for once tried to answer my question and did not change the topic all the time!

[aziz2085]

because the west isnt bankrupt. when sadamm was going to stop the export of oil america went to attack him and i remember bill maher also stating we attacked sadam becoz oil was our economic life life which he was going to end. so if the price of oil is high its not the arabs selling it high its western governments selling it high to its people and making more money from it. no matter how high oil has always sold in the west because people need it.

[aziz2085]

now whether this was the right or wrong answer to your question is this really going to take u away that the mess in iraq and afghanistan is all down to america. if im a good person but im evil outside does it make it better than im mommys good little boy in doors lol....this your peoples problem u forget the root cause and stray from the subjects of the cause.

[JohananRaatz]

That is why we need to simply bomb the facilities and perhaps the capital and be done with it. I would like to set up a new government in Iran like we have in Iraq but frankly we don't have the money for it right now. Just bomb it, and let what happens happen.

[barkingbasher]

well no wonder you're anti religion being a Hindu.

[Sutapas]

Murray is a throwback colonialist arsehole. He's the British NeoCon and a self-proclaimed Zionist! It was US/UK colonial policies which dispossessed the Palestinians. In the 1980s the Zionists wanted India's help to bomb Pak nuclear sites which would have started a war! The West helped the Zionist settler colonialists get nuclear weapons for itself and the Zionists collaborated with their fellow Apartheid regime on nukes. The hypocrisy over Zionism in the West is nauseating.

[barkingbasher]

What is wrong with being a Zionist?

All your islamic brothers go on their Haj to the most racist country on Earth Saudi Arabia.

[Sutapas]

Funny,

I am a Hindu not a Muslim and ferociously anti-religious. Zionism is settler-colonialism as American Jew Maxime Rodinson and others have noted. The Europeans forced the Arabs to pay for European anti-Semitism so Truman could get the Jewish vote in the 1948 US election. The "UN vote" split on racial lines and Truman armtwisted Haiti etc. to win!

[Chordiegurl]

He is a git - I wish he wasn't so gorgeous though. I completely disagree with ALL his policies (not that he has many) and views. I love the eyebrow too - I'm trying to train myself to raise mine... unsuccessfully...

[proudredhead]

Mr Murray do you have any idea what would happen to the thousands of British Soldiers in the South of Iraq if we attacked Iran?.

[ronaldinhollew]

Douglas Murray is the most irritating arse of an Eton stereotype! He's a completely unlikeable, wound-up prat who thinks far too highly of himself! He considers himself a cultured expert on everything!

Last night on Question Time he was confronted by Adam Price and Lord Hurd (intelligence). His inability to pronounce Plaid Cymru highlighted his ignorance! "I'm not taking lectures from Plaid Cymru!" He should, they're obviously far more pleasing on the ear than his mindless rants!

[uibalex]

I like him he's funny. Got to love that eyebrow! THE MAN THE MYTH THE LEGEND DOUGLAS MURRAYYYYYYYYYY.

[gnrdude]

yes I do say these chaps need to bloody relax & have tea & crumpets.