This is all pointless man, you can say science proves "God" does not exist, and others can say God Created science and Earth is just a test. of the emergency broadcast system
Try getting people to simply not act "insane" and play nice with each other. In the end we are all screwed
@ChairSpinnin None of my videos have ever stated that science has proved god does not exist. You obviously haven't watched any of my videos. I do not have as nihilistic of a view of humanity as you do. I would argue that it is never a waste of time to try to educate someone.
We, the godless, should not tell one another what tactics should or should not be used. All revolutionary movements have both moderate and extreme wings. The moderates generally inherit the victory, but it is only achieved with the help of the extreme wing.
As someone who believes in some God, I like that you have this video. I've also watched some of your other videos and find myself enjoying them, although I must admit that I will likely never abandon my belief in God. You stated it well to say that it is emotional, not logical. I try to be a logical person in most of my actions and beliefs, but when it gets to God, and only God (meaning not what religion tells me about science, morality, etc), I choose not to abandon that belief. Am I delusional
@TheFutureWon1 Not delusional in the sense that you share a commonality amongst people who are legally insane. But if you want to have a rational criteria for suspecting god exists, you had better have some convincing evidence. I've spent my life reviewing that evidence and remain unconvinced. Also, your claim that you 'will never' abandon your belief in god says to me that you are making an emotional decision, not a rational one- rationality changes in the face of new evidence.
Hmm. I've tried to have friendly debates with religious people, but it never seems to work, not that I was expecting some great conversion or anything, that very moment. The people I have debated with were usually friendly, nice, intelligent people. However, they have this peculiar way of arguing, of using bad analogies, and with a even a greater ignorance of important scientific theories than my own limited understanding.*
@kwolf71 *The flow of conversation often blocks me from trying to explain this to them. The major difficulty is this, that even in those kind of friendly debates, they will still think, probably implicitly to themselves, that no matter what I say to them, they will still have that emotional history and personal experiences with 'God', that I cannot 'undo'. In short, no matter what comes out of my mouth, they will still think their explanation for the universe is perfect, absolutely impervious.
@kwolf71 Your job shouldn't be to undo their beliefs. I think your job should be simply to demonstrate to them that their arguments are logically and scientifically invalid. At that point you can eventually point out that the root of their belief is in emotion, and continue by explaining that all people in different religions have the same emotional attachments to their own deities. Millions of people experience Vishnu and Allah yearly. Emotion is not reliable.
@kwolf71 Yeah of course, you cannot have a gentleman's argument with a theist because by virtue of believing in god they generally have no education, or gross misconceptions of science. They're fucking illiterate in any context that you could possibly have a logical debate on.
It is no question that being more polite is much more conducive to convincing people. However, when beliefs become tangibly destructive, the truth cannot help but feel insulting. As in, if you're a suicide bomber or an advocate for creationism (Kirk and Ray?), sorry, but public well-being take precedence over your emotions.
@SevenRiderAirForce Yes, and in the cases of extreme fundamentalism, like with terrorists, I'm going to quote V directly: "Violence can be used for good."
I have to say, since i came out as an Atheist, I nearly lost my wife of 20 years, many of my friends looked down on me, and my employment was not viewed as of significant value anymore. I was less of a person in theists' eyes. I was seen as a bad person of no moral value. I feel justified in my anger towards all religion. I am a bad person because i don't have your imaginary friend as my friend? Exposing the stupidity of religion though their holy books is the only way to get through to them
But you can be better than them, and demonstrate your superior morality, by not returning their pathetic scorn. Religion is hate-inspiring and divisive. The only way to show people that life is better without it, is to educate them. And you cannot educate anyone by bombarding them with anger. I am sorry for your loss, I truly understand what it feels like. Being an atheist is almost as bad as being gay, in the eyes of our society. It really is pathetic.
@BlueSpirals thanks but i dont really they are bad people just that religon is such a big part of their lives they wouldnt like me any less they just have a bias forced on them they really would not understand how some one that they like so much would act because all that they know is this bias that they know it is good to know that other people understand me
I completely agree with you BlueSpirals. I came to the same conclusion recently that the only way to go is to be as controlled and non aggressive as possible when you debate with a theist. I think we need to 'lead by example', the more they can see that we are moral and decent without religion the better for everyone.
@BlueSpirals I was only pointing out that you said we hate when really we try to be like Jesus and love. You're right that I have never read to whole Bible front to back. I want to know what you have to say, though. Definitely. Honestly, though, you make it really difficult to have a conversation.
Uhm, are you joking? Are you totally unaware that there are tons of christians who are incredibly violent and evil? Historically and contemporarily? The bible cultivates hatred, bigotry, racism, sexism, homophobia, and antisocial behavior. You are absolutely out of your mind if you think that all of the christians in the world who are BAD people are actually just trying to be like jesus.
You sound like a good person, much more so than the god portrayed in your book, and the ideals of your religion.
Out of the handful of little wisdomy bits in your scripture, hidden among the superstition and moral corruption of the savages who dreamed it all up, there is a personal favorite of mine: "By their fruits, ye shall know them." Keep this in mind, and take a long, hard look at your religion's history, and the behavior of your current religious leaders.
And atheists are not just as often grotesquely immoral? What do you say of the flock of modern Nazis touting their fascism and atheism with equal pride? Or the several that I've personally encountered calling for the genocide of Muslims or, equally as often, theists in their entirety?
@DominicBuchholz Atheists have a track record of NOT being as immoral as religious people, and I argue that the prison population supports this conclusion. Atheists have a disproportionally lower population in prisons than in society- it is the opposite for christians and other religious types. Almost every single Nazi was christian or catholic; much like ALL of western europe. At NO point did Nazis ever claim to be atheist. Atheists do not call for genocide, ever, I am certain you are lying.
Atheists have a track record of not being as immoral as religious people, and the prison population supports this. Atheists have a disproportionally small representation in prison- simply because atheists tend to be educated, and educated people tend not to be violent criminals. Nazis were Christian and Catholic, much like all of western europe. Are you unaware of how religious Germany is? Nazis and Hitler NEVER claimed they were atheists, lol.
Perhaps not - Neo-Nazis are, if I can rely on my (limited, in fairness.) experience, more often than they aren't, atheists. I'd recommend reading what *I* said - not responding to the dumb asses claiming Hitler was an atheist when you answer my comment. Besides that, evidently you're as ignorant as you perceive I am. Besides the point, fine, but there are more than a few atheists, or otherwise secularists, German or otherwise, that I could cite from the time.
@DominicBuchholz I've never met a neo nazi in my life, but I'm sure they're a bunch of assholes no matter what religion they are or arent. However, atheist neo-nazis do not gather their hatred from atheist 'doctrine'. There are no atheist ideals, there is no atheist culture. There are no atheist beliefs.
Also, I wrote my final political science report on Neo Nazism in America, and every single white-power gang I studied, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, called themselves christians.
@DominicBuchholz Furthermore, you should look up "Aryan Nation" on wikipedia, because that is the largest core of nazi hate-groups in America, and it even advertises itself as a Christian group.
And no, I'm not as ignorant as you think I am, you're just upset (as with many harmless religious people) that it is possible that religion can be interpreted to be violent (and is often so).
Thank you for telling me how I feel and why. Indeed, I was frightful for a moment that I might have been compelled to take you seriously, as a conversational partner.
As well, you're just upset because you've been betrayed as the secret Satanist Pagan Muslim Voudaoist that you are, like so many other impotent atheists peasants.
@DominicBuchholz Your opinions of atheists are irrelevant. I'm only stating facts; I can cite evidence for every claim I've made. Your initial conclusion was that atheists are equally as immoral as theists, yet you've provided zero evidence for this. You know some atheist neonazis? I sure as hell dont. Even if they exist, they don't draw their immoral behavior from atheism. Hitler was a vegetarian- he certainly didn't draw his hatred of jews from vegetarianism.
Hahahaha. You really couldn't see the concrete-thick, intentional irony of my prior statement? Persecution complexes certainly are a powerful sedative.
Hitler wasn't inspired by his vegetarianism to express the Holocaust, nor his religion, if you bother to study his life - not that I expect "doing the research" was ever much a priority to you. It came from . . .
@DominicBuchholz I've studied him pretty thoroughly, actually. I don't think he drew his hatred from religion. Although a lot of world-renowned scholars would disagree with me. And yes, the irony in your muslim statement was pretty obvious; that is not the sentence to which I am referring. I think you are a little lost.
Anyways, I still am not reading any point in your posts. What exactly are you trying to convince me of, and where is your evidence? Are you still on about atheist amorality?
I've asked you probably 12 times now, what specifically is your argument, and where is your evidence? Your hedge-hopping red herrings are not going to distract me and the readers of this conversation. I'm not concerned with Hitler, it seems that you and I totally agree on him, so I'm asking you to return to your original argument and present it with support. You seem to be desperately avoiding this?
@DominicBuchholz Research and peer review are highly valued in the scientific world. Both of those elements are discouraged in the religious world. If you are arguing from the position of theism, I'd say you really aren't in a position to assert I do not research anything. It's pretty obvious to me that you haven't seen any of my other religious videos, because most of them include a heavy amount of science.
You're inventing a link between science and atheism that, quite simply, doesn't exist. Besides that, like the fact or not, theists are just as free to choose as you are - we can follow the tenets or traditions and dogmas perceived thereas, or we can defy them.
There is a direct correlation between those who do not believe in god and those who are educated in science. More directly, almost 100% of all atheists accept the theory of evolution by natural selection. Atheists can support their claims with scientific evidence- yet you're telling me that I'm unconcerned with science or research, lol. I never said Hitler proves catholicism is evil. I do assert that there is plenty of evidence suggesting religion causes violence, though.
Fuck this. You're ridiculous. You're not even as much responding to what I say as clinging to a few, elected favorite words and warping what I said to suit your corridor of what your purported opposition is. Like responding to a man's argument with a rebuttal of what the man next to him said.
Besides that, no one is talking about science. We're talking about the fact that you're asserting that Hitler proves Catholicism is evil, but not vegetarianism as evil by the merits of I-said-so, and the fact that you lack even a rudimentary idea of Hitler's life and the architecture of his motivation. In its distilled essence, you're frankly abusing the example of Hitler for reasons I'm almost sure are the fact that you heard someone else cite him as arguments against religion.
@DominicBuchholz You are guilty of straw man right now. It's fairly clear that I never said any of the aforementioned things you've accused me of, and I never even insinuated that Adolph Hitler was a murderer because he was a catholic. However, I did remind you that the founder of Nazism was religious, and so were most of his followers, even today, in direct response to your accusation that atheists tend to be 'grotesquely' immoral.
As did you. I never said that atheists tend to be. I said as many atheists are immoral people as theists. If you perceive that as being that atheists tend to be grotesquely immoral, that's much more telling of your opinion of theists, than it is of mine regarding atheists.
No, your initial argument can be stylized as such: "Non-religious people tend to be equally immoral as religious people." Then you tried to support this claim with anecdotal evidence regarding your acquaintanceship with some atheist 'neo nazis'. I reminded you that both contemporary and historically, nazis tend to be religious. Your EXACT WORDS were, "grotesquely immoral". Those are NOT my words, nor my perception.
@BlueSpirals: Oh, the false dichotomy between "science" and "religion" and you use THAT as an argument?
If you'd be more educated in history, you'd know that science and religion are non-exclusive and that much of the past great scientific discoveries were made by believers and that currently there's a vast array of scientists who have a belief and are good scientists.
That you in your mind falsely equate science with atheism/naturalism doesn't mean it is actually true.
@Barachem Sorry, is this an old argument we were having? I dont recall to what you are referring in your accusation. I never said science and religion are mutually exclusive, and would never say that. The majority of the world is christian, and so are many scientists (probably not a majority, however). What my arguments mainly concern is that the VAST majority of scientists accept Evolution above creation. (Many evolutionists still believe in god.) MANY scientists are atheists, however.
@BlueSpirals: My mistake, i misinterpreted your comment there, sorry for the confusion.
I know that many if not the majority of scientists accept evolution above creation and no, it's not because they have weighed the options evenly.
It's because evolution is the only thing that is taught in science books and it is not questioned when scientists begin their jobs, because an overwhelming majority of scientists have other specializations than the theory of evolution.
@Barachem Do you understand that Evolution is taught in science books because it has survived scientific scrutiny for over 200 years? It is the only factually supported scientific explanation for the variation and history of biological life on earth. Intelligent Design has not withstood scientific inquiry, and thus is not taught in science books.
They're not interested in researching evolution, because it is not their job, they accept it as truth already and why would they sink their precious free time in researching evolution more?
As a former atheist and evolutionist in the Netherlands, i became a christian and logically i saw and still see the theory of evolution as incompatible with my faith.
I know that here ToE is taught in high schools and that after that it is not taught again.
@Barachem It is my job, and their job, to research evolution. That is what evolutionary biologists do (Im an undergraduate). Is it any coincidence that people who actually have researched evolution accept it, and people who don't know anything about it dont? Evolution has been scientifically proven to be true, thus rendering your faith incompatible with reality. This is why science and religion are (sometimes) mutually exclusive. I hope you are not offended, I'm just stating the facts.
@BlueSpirals: In fact it is society that has shaped most scientists to be pro-ToE, because most people in today's western societies are raised and educated in a learning environment that heavily promotes evolution.
In such it's no wonder that most scientists in the western world are evolutionists.
In the end it is clear that ToE permeates western societies and thus explains the high percentage of evolutionists among scientists.
It's a case of cultural conformation, not individuals researching.
@Barachem You are grossly misinformed. Evolution is STILL one of the most heavily-researched aspects of science on the face of the planet. Princeton, Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, and Berkeley all have evolutionary biology research facilities. Do you actually think the best universities in the world are making this shit up?
@BlueSpirals Well I'm not going to go through the video again and point out things to argue about if there are any. It just seems your view on Christianity is like the last sentence you said about hate. There are people of every religion who hate and fear(Atheists too). In Christianity it's SUPPOSED to be the opposite. Love instead of hate. Jesus didn't hate and so neither are Christians. It's just a fraction of people who are like that and I'd say most of them, from my experience, aren't so.
@BlueSpirals The last sentence you said is what I pointed out. Okay, well lets say Jesus was just a completely made up person thrown into the Bible. Christians are still going to try and be like that. I don't see an issue with it.. Have you ever seen Peaceful Warrior or read the book(you should)? It's not religious at all, but it does say that Jesus was a peaceful warrior. Religious or not, that's the kind of person people should aim to be.
When did I ever say that jesus was the cause of these problems? He's one of the very few somewhat humane people in the bible (except in a few instances). I take it you have never read the bible in your life, because you seem to be totally unaware of the horrific stories and commandments within it.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
As for the penalties for being an atheist, you deserve both, you disgusting, immoral, unethical heretic.
Everything you say is so untrue, yet you wrap it in this cute, intelligent-looking package only to lead everyone down the path to sin.. you people make me sick
All hail our lord, Jesus Christ, and may he continue to smite sinners like you, amen
I like your message and couldn't agree with it more, but I'm not angry at people for having a belief in a god. I mock and put the religious people down because they invade my world with their drivel and force their beliefs on me through laws that are passed. Stay out of my life and I will stay out of theirs.
You see I have NO compassion for ignorance in the name of a god! No Obama peace prize here!
I don't face ridicule at my school, even though it is mostly Muslim. What's my secret?
There's a gifted program at my school where most people are atheist, some agnostic, a few deist, even less people religious. Sometimes you are even ridiculed if you are religious.
The rest of the school is religious,mostly. So I first tell them I'm in the gifted program, and then I tell them I'm atheist... problem solved.
2- I convince them I'm very intelligent and then they don't question me.
Unfortunately talking to theists calmly and rationally usually doesn't work as most theists can never be calm or rational about it. Religion is just another form of delusion/mental illness. Have you ever tried to tell a crazy person that their crazy? It doesn't work.
I don't want to come across as being rude or negative.. but I felt like there was a lot of ignorance in that video.. and in your videos you use the same tone of voice, so I can't tell if you're kidding or not. @.@
Sorry, but you can't reform a Christian, especially if they have raised children in Christianity. They have to want to know the truth and they have to be in a position to deal with the lies they have accepted and told others.
The first step of wisdom is to call things by their proper name. We do this for those that are not yet blinded by religious dogma. The future decline of religion belongs to the young that are still moldable.
We arent trying to reform christians- they have to reform themselves. And what the hell are you talking about, THOUSANDS of religious people abandon their religion each year. MOST atheists were religious at one point.
With any important issue, argument, debate etc it is sometimes necessary to control emotions such as anger in order to be effective. I agree.
BUT!...FAITH for example is not a virtue. It would be wrong for me to say otherwise. To respect a belief that has no supporting evidence and is often contrary to well known facts is irresponsible.
The evolution vs creation argument is ridiculous. A little anger, ridicule, etc is required(especially in the US) Creationist garbage needs to be dealt with now
That's why religion is so effective. It changes a persons reality and perception of all incoming information.
Catholics defend the church even with the mass-pedophilia.
Evangelicals defend their leaders even through scandal and criminal convictions.
The powers that be encourage religion because it creates fearful, obedient slaves. And from what I've seen, America gave the green-light to religinuts over 60 years ago. No turning back now.
You are missing the point. These catholics are so stalwart in their support of their religion and corrupted church, yes, BUT IT IS FOR EMOTIONAL REASONS. If you introduce them to logic, some of them begin to view their lives more rationally- and thus reasoning triumphs.
I can appreciate your "try a gentler approach"...but it doesn't work. In reality, nothing does. I don't think there is anything anyone could say to a "believing" theist to make them say "huh..I might be wrong".
We're "the evil ones trying to trick them"...remember?
No one can talk a crackhead into quiting their drug, and no one can talk a religious addict into quiting theirs. Addicts have to want to quit on their own.
For the most part, even if their pastor/priest said "it's all bogus"....
I wonder at times whether or not the methods of philosophical debate that I use when engaging in conversations with creationists is fundamentally wrong. After all, I am attempting to reason, with an unreasonable individual, by definition. I have discovered that inciting, or finding, doubt within my opponent, as it invariably exists within them, aside from the most religious of individuals, is often the quickest way to destroy their poor arguments.
If you've figured out a way to generate doubt within someone someone brainwashed by religion, I'd really like to hear how you went about it.
I've tried every way I can think of, and the only response I've gotten back is amazing mental gymnastics to remain ignorant. If anything, my attempts have only entrenched their psychosis...exact opposite of my intentions :/
Humans are adept at deluding themselves- but they are NOT unreasonable. I bet at one point, you believed in god, just as I did. We both woke up. It is never, ever a waste of time trying to educate a religious person on the philosophy of reason. Even if they tell you it's a waste.
Sorry I disagree with you. Theist will never be changed; it is however their teen age children that can be turned more reasonable side of atheism. As they search far and wide for answers the further the argument goes the better. Such as nonstampcollectors collection of cartoons which are very good yet still poke fun at theist. Good luck on your arguments with the entrenched theist. However I believe its like arguing with a bat-shit crazed lunatic. Good luck with that.
Well said.
mrstewartosborne 1 month ago
This is all pointless man, you can say science proves "God" does not exist, and others can say God Created science and Earth is just a test. of the emergency broadcast system
Try getting people to simply not act "insane" and play nice with each other. In the end we are all screwed
ChairSpinnin 1 year ago
@ChairSpinnin None of my videos have ever stated that science has proved god does not exist. You obviously haven't watched any of my videos. I do not have as nihilistic of a view of humanity as you do. I would argue that it is never a waste of time to try to educate someone.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago 2
We, the godless, should not tell one another what tactics should or should not be used. All revolutionary movements have both moderate and extreme wings. The moderates generally inherit the victory, but it is only achieved with the help of the extreme wing.
stevehayes13 1 year ago
As someone who believes in some God, I like that you have this video. I've also watched some of your other videos and find myself enjoying them, although I must admit that I will likely never abandon my belief in God. You stated it well to say that it is emotional, not logical. I try to be a logical person in most of my actions and beliefs, but when it gets to God, and only God (meaning not what religion tells me about science, morality, etc), I choose not to abandon that belief. Am I delusional
TheFutureWon1 1 year ago
@TheFutureWon1 Not delusional in the sense that you share a commonality amongst people who are legally insane. But if you want to have a rational criteria for suspecting god exists, you had better have some convincing evidence. I've spent my life reviewing that evidence and remain unconvinced. Also, your claim that you 'will never' abandon your belief in god says to me that you are making an emotional decision, not a rational one- rationality changes in the face of new evidence.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
Hmm. I've tried to have friendly debates with religious people, but it never seems to work, not that I was expecting some great conversion or anything, that very moment. The people I have debated with were usually friendly, nice, intelligent people. However, they have this peculiar way of arguing, of using bad analogies, and with a even a greater ignorance of important scientific theories than my own limited understanding.*
kwolf71 1 year ago
@kwolf71 *The flow of conversation often blocks me from trying to explain this to them. The major difficulty is this, that even in those kind of friendly debates, they will still think, probably implicitly to themselves, that no matter what I say to them, they will still have that emotional history and personal experiences with 'God', that I cannot 'undo'. In short, no matter what comes out of my mouth, they will still think their explanation for the universe is perfect, absolutely impervious.
kwolf71 1 year ago
@kwolf71 Your job shouldn't be to undo their beliefs. I think your job should be simply to demonstrate to them that their arguments are logically and scientifically invalid. At that point you can eventually point out that the root of their belief is in emotion, and continue by explaining that all people in different religions have the same emotional attachments to their own deities. Millions of people experience Vishnu and Allah yearly. Emotion is not reliable.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@kwolf71 Yeah of course, you cannot have a gentleman's argument with a theist because by virtue of believing in god they generally have no education, or gross misconceptions of science. They're fucking illiterate in any context that you could possibly have a logical debate on.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
Very interesting.
It is no question that being more polite is much more conducive to convincing people. However, when beliefs become tangibly destructive, the truth cannot help but feel insulting. As in, if you're a suicide bomber or an advocate for creationism (Kirk and Ray?), sorry, but public well-being take precedence over your emotions.
SevenRiderAirForce 1 year ago
@SevenRiderAirForce Yes, and in the cases of extreme fundamentalism, like with terrorists, I'm going to quote V directly: "Violence can be used for good."
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
I have to say, since i came out as an Atheist, I nearly lost my wife of 20 years, many of my friends looked down on me, and my employment was not viewed as of significant value anymore. I was less of a person in theists' eyes. I was seen as a bad person of no moral value. I feel justified in my anger towards all religion. I am a bad person because i don't have your imaginary friend as my friend? Exposing the stupidity of religion though their holy books is the only way to get through to them
realoldguy1969 1 year ago
But you can be better than them, and demonstrate your superior morality, by not returning their pathetic scorn. Religion is hate-inspiring and divisive. The only way to show people that life is better without it, is to educate them. And you cannot educate anyone by bombarding them with anger. I am sorry for your loss, I truly understand what it feels like. Being an atheist is almost as bad as being gay, in the eyes of our society. It really is pathetic.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
if some of my friends found out that i was ana ateist they would never treat me the same
PIKLEWEAZL95 1 year ago
@PIKLEWEAZL95 your friends are bad people, not you. make no mistake.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago 7
@BlueSpirals thanks but i dont really they are bad people just that religon is such a big part of their lives they wouldnt like me any less they just have a bias forced on them they really would not understand how some one that they like so much would act because all that they know is this bias that they know it is good to know that other people understand me
PIKLEWEAZL95 1 year ago
Lol V. Good film. 8D
/trollcomment
CorneliusOrnitier 1 year ago
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Abuse claims sweep Catholic Church in Europe
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allreligionskill 1 year ago
I completely agree with you BlueSpirals. I came to the same conclusion recently that the only way to go is to be as controlled and non aggressive as possible when you debate with a theist. I think we need to 'lead by example', the more they can see that we are moral and decent without religion the better for everyone.
fishypaw 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals I was only pointing out that you said we hate when really we try to be like Jesus and love. You're right that I have never read to whole Bible front to back. I want to know what you have to say, though. Definitely. Honestly, though, you make it really difficult to have a conversation.
tiffarooroo 1 year ago
Uhm, are you joking? Are you totally unaware that there are tons of christians who are incredibly violent and evil? Historically and contemporarily? The bible cultivates hatred, bigotry, racism, sexism, homophobia, and antisocial behavior. You are absolutely out of your mind if you think that all of the christians in the world who are BAD people are actually just trying to be like jesus.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals Have you lost your marbles?
tiffarooroo 1 year ago
Whether or not you want to admit it, religious people are sometimes grotesquely immoral. Open your eyes.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals There are, and it makes the people who aren't so look bad.
tiffarooroo 1 year ago
@tiffarooroo
You sound like a good person, much more so than the god portrayed in your book, and the ideals of your religion.
Out of the handful of little wisdomy bits in your scripture, hidden among the superstition and moral corruption of the savages who dreamed it all up, there is a personal favorite of mine: "By their fruits, ye shall know them." Keep this in mind, and take a long, hard look at your religion's history, and the behavior of your current religious leaders.
Anon11674 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals
And atheists are not just as often grotesquely immoral? What do you say of the flock of modern Nazis touting their fascism and atheism with equal pride? Or the several that I've personally encountered calling for the genocide of Muslims or, equally as often, theists in their entirety?
DominicBuchholz 1 year ago
@DominicBuchholz Atheists have a track record of NOT being as immoral as religious people, and I argue that the prison population supports this conclusion. Atheists have a disproportionally lower population in prisons than in society- it is the opposite for christians and other religious types. Almost every single Nazi was christian or catholic; much like ALL of western europe. At NO point did Nazis ever claim to be atheist. Atheists do not call for genocide, ever, I am certain you are lying.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
Atheists have a track record of not being as immoral as religious people, and the prison population supports this. Atheists have a disproportionally small representation in prison- simply because atheists tend to be educated, and educated people tend not to be violent criminals. Nazis were Christian and Catholic, much like all of western europe. Are you unaware of how religious Germany is? Nazis and Hitler NEVER claimed they were atheists, lol.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals
Perhaps not - Neo-Nazis are, if I can rely on my (limited, in fairness.) experience, more often than they aren't, atheists. I'd recommend reading what *I* said - not responding to the dumb asses claiming Hitler was an atheist when you answer my comment. Besides that, evidently you're as ignorant as you perceive I am. Besides the point, fine, but there are more than a few atheists, or otherwise secularists, German or otherwise, that I could cite from the time.
DominicBuchholz 1 year ago
@DominicBuchholz I've never met a neo nazi in my life, but I'm sure they're a bunch of assholes no matter what religion they are or arent. However, atheist neo-nazis do not gather their hatred from atheist 'doctrine'. There are no atheist ideals, there is no atheist culture. There are no atheist beliefs.
Also, I wrote my final political science report on Neo Nazism in America, and every single white-power gang I studied, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, called themselves christians.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@DominicBuchholz Furthermore, you should look up "Aryan Nation" on wikipedia, because that is the largest core of nazi hate-groups in America, and it even advertises itself as a Christian group.
And no, I'm not as ignorant as you think I am, you're just upset (as with many harmless religious people) that it is possible that religion can be interpreted to be violent (and is often so).
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals
Thank you for telling me how I feel and why. Indeed, I was frightful for a moment that I might have been compelled to take you seriously, as a conversational partner.
As well, you're just upset because you've been betrayed as the secret Satanist Pagan Muslim Voudaoist that you are, like so many other impotent atheists peasants.
DominicBuchholz 1 year ago
@DominicBuchholz Your opinions of atheists are irrelevant. I'm only stating facts; I can cite evidence for every claim I've made. Your initial conclusion was that atheists are equally as immoral as theists, yet you've provided zero evidence for this. You know some atheist neonazis? I sure as hell dont. Even if they exist, they don't draw their immoral behavior from atheism. Hitler was a vegetarian- he certainly didn't draw his hatred of jews from vegetarianism.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals
Hahahaha. You really couldn't see the concrete-thick, intentional irony of my prior statement? Persecution complexes certainly are a powerful sedative.
Hitler wasn't inspired by his vegetarianism to express the Holocaust, nor his religion, if you bother to study his life - not that I expect "doing the research" was ever much a priority to you. It came from . . .
DominicBuchholz 1 year ago
@DominicBuchholz I've studied him pretty thoroughly, actually. I don't think he drew his hatred from religion. Although a lot of world-renowned scholars would disagree with me. And yes, the irony in your muslim statement was pretty obvious; that is not the sentence to which I am referring. I think you are a little lost.
Anyways, I still am not reading any point in your posts. What exactly are you trying to convince me of, and where is your evidence? Are you still on about atheist amorality?
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
I've asked you probably 12 times now, what specifically is your argument, and where is your evidence? Your hedge-hopping red herrings are not going to distract me and the readers of this conversation. I'm not concerned with Hitler, it seems that you and I totally agree on him, so I'm asking you to return to your original argument and present it with support. You seem to be desperately avoiding this?
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals
. . . experiences in his early childhood and cultural schisms that fostered a deep-seated, xenophobic and strongly nationalistic hatred for the Jews.
DominicBuchholz 1 year ago
@DominicBuchholz Research and peer review are highly valued in the scientific world. Both of those elements are discouraged in the religious world. If you are arguing from the position of theism, I'd say you really aren't in a position to assert I do not research anything. It's pretty obvious to me that you haven't seen any of my other religious videos, because most of them include a heavy amount of science.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals
You're inventing a link between science and atheism that, quite simply, doesn't exist. Besides that, like the fact or not, theists are just as free to choose as you are - we can follow the tenets or traditions and dogmas perceived thereas, or we can defy them.
DominicBuchholz 1 year ago
There is a direct correlation between those who do not believe in god and those who are educated in science. More directly, almost 100% of all atheists accept the theory of evolution by natural selection. Atheists can support their claims with scientific evidence- yet you're telling me that I'm unconcerned with science or research, lol. I never said Hitler proves catholicism is evil. I do assert that there is plenty of evidence suggesting religion causes violence, though.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals
Fuck this. You're ridiculous. You're not even as much responding to what I say as clinging to a few, elected favorite words and warping what I said to suit your corridor of what your purported opposition is. Like responding to a man's argument with a rebuttal of what the man next to him said.
DominicBuchholz 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals
Besides that, no one is talking about science. We're talking about the fact that you're asserting that Hitler proves Catholicism is evil, but not vegetarianism as evil by the merits of I-said-so, and the fact that you lack even a rudimentary idea of Hitler's life and the architecture of his motivation. In its distilled essence, you're frankly abusing the example of Hitler for reasons I'm almost sure are the fact that you heard someone else cite him as arguments against religion.
DominicBuchholz 1 year ago
@DominicBuchholz You are guilty of straw man right now. It's fairly clear that I never said any of the aforementioned things you've accused me of, and I never even insinuated that Adolph Hitler was a murderer because he was a catholic. However, I did remind you that the founder of Nazism was religious, and so were most of his followers, even today, in direct response to your accusation that atheists tend to be 'grotesquely' immoral.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals
As did you. I never said that atheists tend to be. I said as many atheists are immoral people as theists. If you perceive that as being that atheists tend to be grotesquely immoral, that's much more telling of your opinion of theists, than it is of mine regarding atheists.
DominicBuchholz 1 year ago
No, your initial argument can be stylized as such: "Non-religious people tend to be equally immoral as religious people." Then you tried to support this claim with anecdotal evidence regarding your acquaintanceship with some atheist 'neo nazis'. I reminded you that both contemporary and historically, nazis tend to be religious. Your EXACT WORDS were, "grotesquely immoral". Those are NOT my words, nor my perception.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals: Oh, the false dichotomy between "science" and "religion" and you use THAT as an argument?
If you'd be more educated in history, you'd know that science and religion are non-exclusive and that much of the past great scientific discoveries were made by believers and that currently there's a vast array of scientists who have a belief and are good scientists.
That you in your mind falsely equate science with atheism/naturalism doesn't mean it is actually true.
Barachem 1 year ago
@Barachem Sorry, is this an old argument we were having? I dont recall to what you are referring in your accusation. I never said science and religion are mutually exclusive, and would never say that. The majority of the world is christian, and so are many scientists (probably not a majority, however). What my arguments mainly concern is that the VAST majority of scientists accept Evolution above creation. (Many evolutionists still believe in god.) MANY scientists are atheists, however.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals: My mistake, i misinterpreted your comment there, sorry for the confusion.
I know that many if not the majority of scientists accept evolution above creation and no, it's not because they have weighed the options evenly.
It's because evolution is the only thing that is taught in science books and it is not questioned when scientists begin their jobs, because an overwhelming majority of scientists have other specializations than the theory of evolution.
Barachem 1 year ago
@Barachem Do you understand that Evolution is taught in science books because it has survived scientific scrutiny for over 200 years? It is the only factually supported scientific explanation for the variation and history of biological life on earth. Intelligent Design has not withstood scientific inquiry, and thus is not taught in science books.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals: But can we blame them?
They're not interested in researching evolution, because it is not their job, they accept it as truth already and why would they sink their precious free time in researching evolution more?
As a former atheist and evolutionist in the Netherlands, i became a christian and logically i saw and still see the theory of evolution as incompatible with my faith.
I know that here ToE is taught in high schools and that after that it is not taught again.
Barachem 1 year ago
@Barachem It is my job, and their job, to research evolution. That is what evolutionary biologists do (Im an undergraduate). Is it any coincidence that people who actually have researched evolution accept it, and people who don't know anything about it dont? Evolution has been scientifically proven to be true, thus rendering your faith incompatible with reality. This is why science and religion are (sometimes) mutually exclusive. I hope you are not offended, I'm just stating the facts.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals: In fact it is society that has shaped most scientists to be pro-ToE, because most people in today's western societies are raised and educated in a learning environment that heavily promotes evolution.
In such it's no wonder that most scientists in the western world are evolutionists.
In the end it is clear that ToE permeates western societies and thus explains the high percentage of evolutionists among scientists.
It's a case of cultural conformation, not individuals researching.
Barachem 1 year ago
@Barachem You are grossly misinformed. Evolution is STILL one of the most heavily-researched aspects of science on the face of the planet. Princeton, Harvard, Cambridge, Oxford, and Berkeley all have evolutionary biology research facilities. Do you actually think the best universities in the world are making this shit up?
BlueSpirals 1 year ago 2
@BlueSpirals Well I'm not going to go through the video again and point out things to argue about if there are any. It just seems your view on Christianity is like the last sentence you said about hate. There are people of every religion who hate and fear(Atheists too). In Christianity it's SUPPOSED to be the opposite. Love instead of hate. Jesus didn't hate and so neither are Christians. It's just a fraction of people who are like that and I'd say most of them, from my experience, aren't so.
tiffarooroo 1 year ago
Okay, if you're not going to point out where you disagree with me, then why bother telling me you disagree?
You dont know what Jesus was really like. Nobody does. We know so little about him, and holy scripture is quite inaccurate.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
@BlueSpirals The last sentence you said is what I pointed out. Okay, well lets say Jesus was just a completely made up person thrown into the Bible. Christians are still going to try and be like that. I don't see an issue with it.. Have you ever seen Peaceful Warrior or read the book(you should)? It's not religious at all, but it does say that Jesus was a peaceful warrior. Religious or not, that's the kind of person people should aim to be.
tiffarooroo 1 year ago
When did I ever say that jesus was the cause of these problems? He's one of the very few somewhat humane people in the bible (except in a few instances). I take it you have never read the bible in your life, because you seem to be totally unaware of the horrific stories and commandments within it.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
As for the penalties for being an atheist, you deserve both, you disgusting, immoral, unethical heretic.
Everything you say is so untrue, yet you wrap it in this cute, intelligent-looking package only to lead everyone down the path to sin.. you people make me sick
All hail our lord, Jesus Christ, and may he continue to smite sinners like you, amen
Fetusmilkshake 1 year ago
@Fetusmilkshake When you call him disgusting and such, you only help prove what he says.
tiffarooroo 1 year ago
beautifully said!
heatherlynblue 1 year ago
I like your message and couldn't agree with it more, but I'm not angry at people for having a belief in a god. I mock and put the religious people down because they invade my world with their drivel and force their beliefs on me through laws that are passed. Stay out of my life and I will stay out of theirs.
You see I have NO compassion for ignorance in the name of a god! No Obama peace prize here!
Good day to all the freethinkers of the world!
allreligionskill 1 year ago
I agree, we should take the higher ground while still not giving undue respect to ancient bronze aged myths. Find a balance.
buckfushes 1 year ago
I'm typically treated with a look of disgust if I tell someone I'm an atheist, or try to talk about my atheism.
People tend to look down at me if I even bring it up, especially in the Religious Community.
They may not come out and say it, but I now that, in certain cases, I'm thought of as an ignorant fool if I talk about atheism.
I'm troublesome, I think, because I represent what they fear: Liberation from their promise in the afterlife, and fearlessness of hell.
Atheism: No God...
heretic98 1 year ago
@heretic98
I don't face ridicule at my school, even though it is mostly Muslim. What's my secret?
There's a gifted program at my school where most people are atheist, some agnostic, a few deist, even less people religious. Sometimes you are even ridiculed if you are religious.
The rest of the school is religious,mostly. So I first tell them I'm in the gifted program, and then I tell them I'm atheist... problem solved.
2- I convince them I'm very intelligent and then they don't question me.
showABCshow 1 year ago
I'm far out of school, but I know what you are saying. I don't face ridicule either. That isn't my problem.
The thing is that most people look down on atheists as being snide or condescending.
I have nothing to complain about though, there are much more important stereotypes for people to overcome than the "snide atheist" stereotype.
My original comment was just a remark on the general opinion some people hold about atheists, and my guess as to why.
Thank you for your comment though.
heretic98 1 year ago
@heretic98
why should others put you down when the most important thing that you own is your pride and opinion
religious people love it when they are in control and only wish to impose there beliefs on others who do not wish to be annoyed with this junk
that is why we need to get tough and fight off these religious nut jobs with logic and common sense
if you don't then we might as well give up now
riotguards 1 year ago
Thanks for the comment :o)
I agree completely.
heretic98 1 year ago
Unfortunately talking to theists calmly and rationally usually doesn't work as most theists can never be calm or rational about it. Religion is just another form of delusion/mental illness. Have you ever tried to tell a crazy person that their crazy? It doesn't work.
deadite33 1 year ago
So have you tried screaming at a crazy person? Does that work much better?
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
I'm not saying that speaking to them uncalmly works any better I'm saying nothing works with those kinds of people.
deadite33 1 year ago
I assume you were born atheist then?
You never believed in god, then changed your mind?
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
No I've never believed in god
deadite33 1 year ago
I don't want to come across as being rude or negative.. but I felt like there was a lot of ignorance in that video.. and in your videos you use the same tone of voice, so I can't tell if you're kidding or not. @.@
tiffarooroo 1 year ago
I have dry humor, and I speak very low because usually when I make these videos, my room mates are asleep.
Please inform me of what exactly I am ignorant of- I am very excited to learn.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
Sorry, but you can't reform a Christian, especially if they have raised children in Christianity. They have to want to know the truth and they have to be in a position to deal with the lies they have accepted and told others.
The first step of wisdom is to call things by their proper name. We do this for those that are not yet blinded by religious dogma. The future decline of religion belongs to the young that are still moldable.
Fletch6 1 year ago 3
We arent trying to reform christians- they have to reform themselves. And what the hell are you talking about, THOUSANDS of religious people abandon their religion each year. MOST atheists were religious at one point.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
With any important issue, argument, debate etc it is sometimes necessary to control emotions such as anger in order to be effective. I agree.
BUT!...FAITH for example is not a virtue. It would be wrong for me to say otherwise. To respect a belief that has no supporting evidence and is often contrary to well known facts is irresponsible.
The evolution vs creation argument is ridiculous. A little anger, ridicule, etc is required(especially in the US) Creationist garbage needs to be dealt with now
richdorks73 1 year ago 3
...a theist would just think "Satan got to them".
That's why religion is so effective. It changes a persons reality and perception of all incoming information.
Catholics defend the church even with the mass-pedophilia.
Evangelicals defend their leaders even through scandal and criminal convictions.
The powers that be encourage religion because it creates fearful, obedient slaves. And from what I've seen, America gave the green-light to religinuts over 60 years ago. No turning back now.
TheHigherVoltage 1 year ago 8
You are missing the point. These catholics are so stalwart in their support of their religion and corrupted church, yes, BUT IT IS FOR EMOTIONAL REASONS. If you introduce them to logic, some of them begin to view their lives more rationally- and thus reasoning triumphs.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
I can appreciate your "try a gentler approach"...but it doesn't work. In reality, nothing does. I don't think there is anything anyone could say to a "believing" theist to make them say "huh..I might be wrong".
We're "the evil ones trying to trick them"...remember?
No one can talk a crackhead into quiting their drug, and no one can talk a religious addict into quiting theirs. Addicts have to want to quit on their own.
For the most part, even if their pastor/priest said "it's all bogus"....
TheHigherVoltage 1 year ago 2
@ TheHigherVoltage and the video in general.
I wonder at times whether or not the methods of philosophical debate that I use when engaging in conversations with creationists is fundamentally wrong. After all, I am attempting to reason, with an unreasonable individual, by definition. I have discovered that inciting, or finding, doubt within my opponent, as it invariably exists within them, aside from the most religious of individuals, is often the quickest way to destroy their poor arguments.
GodofCider 1 year ago
@GodofCider
If you've figured out a way to generate doubt within someone someone brainwashed by religion, I'd really like to hear how you went about it.
I've tried every way I can think of, and the only response I've gotten back is amazing mental gymnastics to remain ignorant. If anything, my attempts have only entrenched their psychosis...exact opposite of my intentions :/
If you got something that's worked, please share!
TheHigherVoltage 1 year ago
Humans are adept at deluding themselves- but they are NOT unreasonable. I bet at one point, you believed in god, just as I did. We both woke up. It is never, ever a waste of time trying to educate a religious person on the philosophy of reason. Even if they tell you it's a waste.
BlueSpirals 1 year ago
Sorry I disagree with you. Theist will never be changed; it is however their teen age children that can be turned more reasonable side of atheism. As they search far and wide for answers the further the argument goes the better. Such as nonstampcollectors collection of cartoons which are very good yet still poke fun at theist. Good luck on your arguments with the entrenched theist. However I believe its like arguing with a bat-shit crazed lunatic. Good luck with that.
SuperAgnostic1 1 year ago 3