He might think that there may only be microbes swimming around underneath the surface. But Alan Boss who wrote "We Are Not Alone" thinks that there might be shrimp sized creatures swimming around underneath the surface.
WheelSlip 8 I agree with you in part BUT Europa is WAY further away and we would have to dig through a lot of ice to find the life IF its there, mars exploration is less expensive its dollars and cents.
Mars is facinating but why in gods name are we exploring a dead planet and not the watery world of Europa? Enough of spending billions on a dead planet. Let's put our money in the real holy grail.
When the first life evolved on Earth there wasn't oxygen to begin with. So a paucity of oxygen doesn't preclude life evolving on Europa. It just precludes the level of organization that we're used to viewing on the macro scale in life.
@equallyeasilyfuqyou life can survive in the most unimaginable environments... including radiation, they have actually found tiny forms of life living in the core of a nuclear reactor....
That is true, on Earth you can find micro-organisms like bacteria and archaia in the most inhospitable places, inside rocks in the Antarctic, miles underground in coal mines, at the bottom of the oceans, etc., getting all their energy not from sunlight but geothermally from minerals. These anaerobic life forms are actually of the greatest interest to life's origin researchers and astrobiologists, because 4 billion years ago the earth was more like a volcanic hothouse without oxygen.
the earth is within the "habitable zone" of the sun. i can see what you're saying. life on different planets would be completely different than ours. perhaps it likes radiation?
It's "habitable" for us. But maybe for some "very efficient heat producing" creatures, it'd be damn too close to the sun.
ANd the sun is growing BTW. It means Earth was once too far from it to hold life as we know it and it also means in a distant future it will be too close to the sun to hold life as we know it.
The immense magnetic radiation field of Jupiter. The two Pioneer spacecrafts were equipped with radiation shielding more than adequate for it. They learned from the mistakes of the USSR actually, when the first Venera lander probes were sent down to Venus, and they all failed. The theories of the surface conditions didn't actually account for there being over 90 earth atmospheres at the surface. The gravitational and magnetic forces near Jupiter are huge.
@Simpson654 sorry, can you rephrase "The theories of the surface conditions didn't actually account for there being over 90 earth atmospheres at the surface."?
@Simpson654 also, the magnetic field may be huge, but there hasn't been any studies made that suggest magnetic fields affect the conditions of life for organisms. Not as far as I know anyways.
sure, they are more likely to be encountered than complex creatures but if there's really 100 kilometers of ocean than it is very possible that more complex forms of life exist down there.
unlikely, there wont be complex life there unless the ocean is very rich in nutrients plus the ice is unlikely to shield the ocean from all that solar radiation, its gonna be a much more hostile environment than on earth
uhhh, what? The ice is VERY likely to completely shield the ocean from surface radiation. you can stand above an operating nuclear reactor so long as it's under ~30 feet of water. 100% of the radiation flux at the surface of Europa INCLUDING the secondary muon flux is going to be blocked by the first 5Km of ice.
@10mintwo really? this is the sun we're talking about, many times more powerful than a nuclear reactor, and Europa doesnt have its own magnetic field to protect it like the earth does.surely radiation particles are so small they would get through much further than that without hitting an atoms nucleus?
ok, well why not actually look some of this up instead of, you know, guessing, because the points you raise in objection are irrelevant and rather silly. >> "Radiation effects on the surfaces of the Galilean satellites" subsection 20.4
im not trying to object, im just curious as you obviously know more about this than i do. do you think there is complex life down there? im studying a degree where this stuff is relevent so its worth me knowing.
Well, Richard Greenberg's paper from October "Vertical Transport through Europa's Crust: Implications for Oxidant Delivery and Habitability" shows that the ocean could be oxygen rich enough to support 3 megatons of fish, so why not?
There Is Life On Europa - I believe that ther is large life "animals" maybe eve intelligent life. The Goldylocks zone in the solar system is where life can live but what about one for galaxies too .
yupp, I think that was the point exactly: no photosynthesis, no way diversified multicellular aerobic life can develop unless there is some yet unknown biochemistry based on something other than carbon.
LOL! no known organism can split water to get O2 for energy, especially without sunlight. the chemistry is impossible. Instead they use excess O2 that's been dissolved in water in the coastal regions because of photosynthesis. Ever heard of hypoxic (low-oxygen) areas where no organism can survive? Look up "oxygen cycle", dummy!
You are still dumm, micro organisms can create water from minerals and water and in our ocean there is still life very deep in ocean remember ? wfere sunlight and dissolved oxygen from atmosphere isn't at all remember?
Europa has a very tenuous atmosphere consisting mostly of oxygen. - oxygen on Europa likely originates when charged particles from the Sun hit water molecules on Europas surface. The water molecules are broken into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, and sometimes recombine to form hydrogen and oxygen gas. Hydrogen, being less dense than oxygen, escapes more easily from Europas surface. Over time, the preferential escape of hydrogen has left behind a ghostly atmosphere of oxygen.
LOL, O2 at 10^-11athmospheric pressure with mean surface temp of -160 C, very unlikely that the oceans dissolve that little O2 or that's enough 2 support life. What u have on EUR ocean at best is trace levels of O2 in the surface layers. On Earth the chem energy that support anaerobic bacteria around deep ocean vents cannot support multicellular life that feeds on it unless there is sufficient oxygen around them. On EUR there is no way that minuscule O2 can reach that deep or b that dense.
Well, if there is an oxygen in atmoshere, it is in the water also, remember the europa has big tides - water rises and drops all the time, what do you think is between ice and ocean? Oxygen maybe?
On earth you need a minimum of 2 ppm O2 dissolved in ocean water to support complex life. Ideally 6 ppm is necessary. You can't have that concentration in Europa's ocean since you don't have that quantity of O2 present in its atmosphere to begin with. Not even close!
Let me present these numbers in a little more user friendly manner 2 u: Europa's ocean volume is more than 2X Earth's ocean volume. Therefore in order to have the O2 concentration we have in our oceans you would need not only atmospheric pressures and temperatures that are close but also 2X the quantity of O2 we have on Earth.
The O2 in Europa's atmosphere however can only fill about a dozen football stadiums ;)
the highest form of life on Europa if anything is made of 1 celled endolithic organisms: a Subsurface Lithotrophic Microbial Ecosystem or SLIME ;)
This life is probably ubiquitous in the universe, it's probably present on Mars, Europa and in some comets and it's possible that such organisms started evolution on Earth. But none of them are multicellular.
He might think that there may only be microbes swimming around underneath the surface. But Alan Boss who wrote "We Are Not Alone" thinks that there might be shrimp sized creatures swimming around underneath the surface.
LifeIsABigPuzzle 9 months ago
WheelSlip 8 I agree with you in part BUT Europa is WAY further away and we would have to dig through a lot of ice to find the life IF its there, mars exploration is less expensive its dollars and cents.
Zurround100 1 year ago
Mars is facinating but why in gods name are we exploring a dead planet and not the watery world of Europa? Enough of spending billions on a dead planet. Let's put our money in the real holy grail.
WheelSlip8 1 year ago
@WheelSlip8 Big difference in distances as far as Mars and Jupiter goes.
Videos4USArmy 1 year ago
When the first life evolved on Earth there wasn't oxygen to begin with. So a paucity of oxygen doesn't preclude life evolving on Europa. It just precludes the level of organization that we're used to viewing on the macro scale in life.
walkedreader 1 year ago
super doku
m47orion 1 year ago
how can anything survive on europa when it's inside of jupiter's intense radiation field?
equallyeasilyfuqyou 2 years ago
@equallyeasilyfuqyou life can survive in the most unimaginable environments... including radiation, they have actually found tiny forms of life living in the core of a nuclear reactor....
Pwner0770 2 years ago
@Pwner0770
That is true, on Earth you can find micro-organisms like bacteria and archaia in the most inhospitable places, inside rocks in the Antarctic, miles underground in coal mines, at the bottom of the oceans, etc., getting all their energy not from sunlight but geothermally from minerals. These anaerobic life forms are actually of the greatest interest to life's origin researchers and astrobiologists, because 4 billion years ago the earth was more like a volcanic hothouse without oxygen.
Simpson654 1 year ago
@equallyeasilyfuqyou Well, let's put it this way... Say something lives on Europa and knows about Earth :
- How can something live on a planet so close to the sun ?
- How can something live with such a high gravity ?
Life is not as fragile as you may think.
Quartrez 2 years ago
I meant "Strong gravity" of course...
Quartrez 2 years ago
the earth is within the "habitable zone" of the sun. i can see what you're saying. life on different planets would be completely different than ours. perhaps it likes radiation?
equallyeasilyfuqyou 2 years ago
It's "habitable" for us. But maybe for some "very efficient heat producing" creatures, it'd be damn too close to the sun.
ANd the sun is growing BTW. It means Earth was once too far from it to hold life as we know it and it also means in a distant future it will be too close to the sun to hold life as we know it.
Quartrez 2 years ago
what radiation field...?
Hemitris 2 years ago
@Hemitris
The immense magnetic radiation field of Jupiter. The two Pioneer spacecrafts were equipped with radiation shielding more than adequate for it. They learned from the mistakes of the USSR actually, when the first Venera lander probes were sent down to Venus, and they all failed. The theories of the surface conditions didn't actually account for there being over 90 earth atmospheres at the surface. The gravitational and magnetic forces near Jupiter are huge.
Simpson654 1 year ago
@Simpson654 sorry, can you rephrase "The theories of the surface conditions didn't actually account for there being over 90 earth atmospheres at the surface."?
Hemitris 1 year ago
@Simpson654 also, the magnetic field may be huge, but there hasn't been any studies made that suggest magnetic fields affect the conditions of life for organisms. Not as far as I know anyways.
Hemitris 1 year ago
why are they only talking about micro-organisms?
sure, they are more likely to be encountered than complex creatures but if there's really 100 kilometers of ocean than it is very possible that more complex forms of life exist down there.
i hope we discover it fast.
Sarnarath 2 years ago
unlikely, there wont be complex life there unless the ocean is very rich in nutrients plus the ice is unlikely to shield the ocean from all that solar radiation, its gonna be a much more hostile environment than on earth
maff77 2 years ago
uhhh, what? The ice is VERY likely to completely shield the ocean from surface radiation. you can stand above an operating nuclear reactor so long as it's under ~30 feet of water. 100% of the radiation flux at the surface of Europa INCLUDING the secondary muon flux is going to be blocked by the first 5Km of ice.
10mintwo 2 years ago
@10mintwo really? this is the sun we're talking about, many times more powerful than a nuclear reactor, and Europa doesnt have its own magnetic field to protect it like the earth does.surely radiation particles are so small they would get through much further than that without hitting an atoms nucleus?
maff77 2 years ago
ok, well why not actually look some of this up instead of, you know, guessing, because the points you raise in objection are irrelevant and rather silly. >> "Radiation effects on the surfaces of the Galilean satellites" subsection 20.4
10mintwo 2 years ago
im not trying to object, im just curious as you obviously know more about this than i do. do you think there is complex life down there? im studying a degree where this stuff is relevent so its worth me knowing.
maff77 2 years ago
Well, Richard Greenberg's paper from October "Vertical Transport through Europa's Crust: Implications for Oxidant Delivery and Habitability" shows that the ocean could be oxygen rich enough to support 3 megatons of fish, so why not?
10mintwo 2 years ago
Put up the rest of the lecture! Fantastic work
xbitteryouthx 3 years ago
whats gona happen to our magnetic field when we pass thru the galactic plane in 2012?
matshroom 3 years ago
theoreticly , it might change our magnetic orientation
AnarchyAlleyCat 3 years ago
this is great. can you please post #3 and more...
thanks
waxlyricalman 3 years ago
There Is Life On Europa - I believe that ther is large life "animals" maybe eve intelligent life. The Goldylocks zone in the solar system is where life can live but what about one for galaxies too .
n8dogg3000 3 years ago
not possible. multicellular organisims need oxygen, no oxygen on europa.
madashelldude 3 years ago 2
Europa does have an atmosphere consisting of oxygen...
schuf1 3 years ago
yupp, I think that was the point exactly: no photosynthesis, no way diversified multicellular aerobic life can develop unless there is some yet unknown biochemistry based on something other than carbon.
szatmar666 3 years ago
You are dumb, Water contains oxygen - H2o remember?
Greenvalds 3 years ago
LOL! no known organism can split water to get O2 for energy, especially without sunlight. the chemistry is impossible. Instead they use excess O2 that's been dissolved in water in the coastal regions because of photosynthesis. Ever heard of hypoxic (low-oxygen) areas where no organism can survive? Look up "oxygen cycle", dummy!
szatmar666 3 years ago
You are still dumm, micro organisms can create water from minerals and water and in our ocean there is still life very deep in ocean remember ? wfere sunlight and dissolved oxygen from atmosphere isn't at all remember?
Greenvalds 3 years ago
sorry, create oxygen :)
And in our ocean in deep areas oxygen isn't the prime source for energy, but vulcanic activity, remember?
Greenvalds 3 years ago
If Europa has an iron core how would there be any vulcanic activity, considering if it is not like our own core?
DickHowdy 2 years ago
Europa has a very tenuous atmosphere consisting mostly of oxygen. - oxygen on Europa likely originates when charged particles from the Sun hit water molecules on Europas surface. The water molecules are broken into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, and sometimes recombine to form hydrogen and oxygen gas. Hydrogen, being less dense than oxygen, escapes more easily from Europas surface. Over time, the preferential escape of hydrogen has left behind a ghostly atmosphere of oxygen.
Greenvalds 3 years ago
LOL, O2 at 10^-11athmospheric pressure with mean surface temp of -160 C, very unlikely that the oceans dissolve that little O2 or that's enough 2 support life. What u have on EUR ocean at best is trace levels of O2 in the surface layers. On Earth the chem energy that support anaerobic bacteria around deep ocean vents cannot support multicellular life that feeds on it unless there is sufficient oxygen around them. On EUR there is no way that minuscule O2 can reach that deep or b that dense.
szatmar666 3 years ago
Well, if there is an oxygen in atmoshere, it is in the water also, remember the europa has big tides - water rises and drops all the time, what do you think is between ice and ocean? Oxygen maybe?
Greenvalds 3 years ago
On earth you need a minimum of 2 ppm O2 dissolved in ocean water to support complex life. Ideally 6 ppm is necessary. You can't have that concentration in Europa's ocean since you don't have that quantity of O2 present in its atmosphere to begin with. Not even close!
szatmar666 3 years ago
Let me present these numbers in a little more user friendly manner 2 u: Europa's ocean volume is more than 2X Earth's ocean volume. Therefore in order to have the O2 concentration we have in our oceans you would need not only atmospheric pressures and temperatures that are close but also 2X the quantity of O2 we have on Earth.
The O2 in Europa's atmosphere however can only fill about a dozen football stadiums ;)
szatmar666 3 years ago
btw, just 1 last question: why did you think they sell air pumps with fish bowls?! ;)
szatmar666 3 years ago
the highest form of life on Europa if anything is made of 1 celled endolithic organisms: a Subsurface Lithotrophic Microbial Ecosystem or SLIME ;)
This life is probably ubiquitous in the universe, it's probably present on Mars, Europa and in some comets and it's possible that such organisms started evolution on Earth. But none of them are multicellular.
szatmar666 3 years ago
Hey, thanks for the link. This is awesome.
Keep up the good work my friend.
Clausfarre 3 years ago 2