Irshad Manji and Reza Aslan debating Muslim reform - 3

[arraba99]

Irishad does not have much to say. She regurgitates the same stuff again, again and again. She is looking for publicity. The only “qualification/credentials” she seems to have is that she is a lesbian who is attacking Islam, which she seems to know very little about. Although, she claims that she a Muslim.

[gobuddyboy]

Irshad is not so smart at all. She is stuck on her idea of the muslim world and she does want to even try to understand the real issue. She is only saying what appeals to already brainwashed Americans on Islam. Her quest for liberal reform of Islam just does not make any sense. She wants to change the Islam that terrorist follow but the problem is MAJORITY of the Muslims are already libreal. Than what is she trying to change? Islam needs no change but rather the few people-terrorist.

[MercuryAquarius]

Manji ahead of her time? Nope. She has izzy asper to thank for her lucrative job and lifestyle - not to mention her fancy bread and rich butter. izzy asper was manji's MAN.

There was a reason the late asper took her on.

Business as usual in the mainstream media.

[enigmafia89]

Irshad: a Muslim ahead of her time.

[annata12]

@enigmafia89 Not that hard if your goal is to be ahead of a seventh century ideology. But progress only comes from people who are ahead of the values and ideas of the 21st century

[ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz]

Irshad Manji= right type of muslim

Reza Aslan= wrong type of muslim

[Giagantus]

@ThatGuyWhoSucksBoobz = Right type of idiot.

[honidizzle]

It's ridiculous how biased the moderator is. He's clearly friends with Irshad Manji and his tone and condescension towards Reza is pretty obnoxious. He should leave his personal thoughts aside if he's going to take on the responsibility of moderating. Your job is to be objective.

[izzymohh]

i love listening to Reza, he makes so much sense, compare to this woman trying to sell her books

[MrLtk007]

@izzymohh

Reza has books to sell too..

[kufrtokufr]

WATCH IRSHAD MANJI GET OWNED:

---> /watch?v=fcoUtr1R8kc

[DreamFreedom1]

Regarding statements like that of shervman: you totally ignore the fact that other cultures have experienced equally or even more drastic economic and political developments, yet don't end up to be radical and irrational people that fail to take responsiblity for their fate. The birth rates in islamic countries alone would economically ruin America or Europe just to name one example

[countertreason]

what an idiot, Reza probably made that stupid anecdote from Iran up. I have met at least 20 Iranians in my lifetime and none of them are stupid enough to believe that the US, the only country in the world that separates church and state constitutionally, is a theocracy, especially compared to the Islamic Republic of Iran. What a fucking retarded thing to say. Goddamnit. He should be ashamed of himself.

Pat Robertson is less powerful than Ahmadinejad. Its a fact.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

Why are you so worried about people spreading the word of Jesus in the middle east??

Most people don't care about Afganistan at all. Just look how in Kabul yesterday 8 muslims were blown up by a car bomb

[fileboy2002]

I am not worried about it, frankly. The Middle East got the so-called "good news" hundreds of years before it arrived in the Americas. If they haven't been convinced by now, they're not gonna be. But you shuldn't ask me. You should ask the US military which, on paper, forbids efforts at conversion but ruens a blind eye to it in practice.

[mavaddat]

Ridiculous. Irshad Manji gives a very cogent argument for thinking that there are common negative elements within all Muslim countries, and Reza Aslan just blindly denies its conclusion -- without any argument whatsoever. How in the world does the OIC unanimously agreeing to stifle dissidents not say something about their common values? Reza Aslan is being disingenuous.

[RoseProphecy]

I do not hear this talk I have to visit it once more!But I just want 2 say this society of promoting my plagiarists & clones has gone too far!Both these people Irshad & Aslan have gained their information about reform of Islam from me for this is my pioneering work & scientific prophecy & D reason they R promoted so highly is because I have an ifluential promoter who has gone astray & stolen my life work & spread it while censoring & siencing me while I have guided D original reform group 10 yrs

[Nhurm]

Discussions of this nature, while interesting in the way discussions of methods crop management are interesting are akin to discussing what color to paint a burning house. The real problem is the base ignorance, superstition and tribalism that permeates societies and as long as peoples are indoctrinated with religious absolutism of any stripe there will be conflict.

[asjounior]

this bitch is fkin stupid.

[blackmore4]

I suspect she has a better idea of how to spell the word 'fucking'.

So would you care to expand on your mumble? I doubt you would really. Or more to the point, could.

[ElysiumIncognita]

The last minute of Aslan was absolutely beautiful!

"Oh, Pat Robertson has wayyyyy more power than Ahmedinijad."

[GODSjudgment]

all of islam is evil ,it is not from GOD it is from hell the devil wrote the koran ,it is worse than pigs blood . but that is what all of islam is covered in pigs blood ,unholy crap .not one word true in it only lies and evil

[NefeshChaim]

It seems to me Muslims are a lot like Jews in a certain respect, they are very reluctant to talk about internal problems within their community among outsiders. Neither of them discuss how much of the fanaticism and hateful ideology stems from islamic teachings rather they attribute it to social conditions, therefore in a way absolving responsibility.

[fileboy2002]

Christians are no different.

True, few Christians are suicide bombers (though a few are pretty enthusiastic clinic bombers). But why should they be? They have the US military to mete out violence for them. And no group of people in the US is more reliably pro-war than fundamentalist Christians.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

Christians are no different.

You know how many people have been killed in clinc bombings??? 9

TODAY in Ingushetia Nazran 20 people were murdered by a sucide bomber.

[fileboy2002]

My point was Christianity does not inure people from hate and violence. Today's Christian afantics don't need to blow themselves up--the have the US military to blow things up for them. And no one is more reliably pro-war than evangelical Christians.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

When was the last time the US military went about forcing people to convert???

That is unless your talking about Democracy.

[fileboy2002]

Actually, US military personnel are trying to convert Muslims to Christianity right now. Its been all over the news--where have you been? In fact, you can find footage of a video proving this on you tube. Search for "US troops urged to share faith in Afghanistan." You'll be surprised.

But you're right: for the mosty part the military just kills Muslims, it doesn't convert them.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

A person who is in the military might try to convert a muslim, athiest, Jew etc etc

The US military doesn't.

And I could point out that US military personal in the Middle east have also converted to islam.

The free flow of ideas and so forth.

[fileboy2002]

How would you feel about an army from a Muslim majority country invading the US, then setting out to convert Americans to Islam? I'll bet you'd object--and you'd be right. Why shouldn't they?

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

You mean the way they are doing it now???

[fileboy2002]

So far as I know, the US has not been invaded by a Muslim majority country. And I think I would have noticed.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

Their are over 5 million muslims in the USA RIGHT NOW!!!!

[fileboy2002]

Oh for Budda's sake, do you not know the difference between immigrants and invaders? If not, ask an Iraqi.

Anyway, I think the number is closer to 10 million. I grew in a largely Muslim neighborhood in Chicago (mostly Pakistanis). Believe me, once you get to know a few real Muslim's, you'll get over this Muslims = terrorists attitude (I hope).

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

What do you think they would say if 1 million Christians immigrated to Saudi Arabia??

It isn't even legal for a non muslim to enter Mecca.

[fileboy2002]

I cannot imagine why 1 million Christians would immigrate to Saudi Arabia.

But if they did, they would comprise a mass migration, not a military invasion. For a military invasion, you need an army. Why is that hard to understand?

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

I can't imagine anyone immigrating to Suadi Arbia.

How ever an army does not an invasion make.

[fileboy2002]

Actually, the overwhelming majority of people living in Saudi are immigrants, mostly from other part of the Muslim world.

Sorry, but when an army invades a country that's an "invasion."

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

I am sorry perhaps you are using the word differntly that I am.

An invasion is an any entry into an area not previously occupied by, (bikers, nerds or in this case Muslims)

[fileboy2002]

But that stretches the definition of "invasion" to the point where it can mean almost anything. When American expatriots form colonies in places like San Miguel de Allende, Mexico or Phuket, Thailand, are they "invading" those countries?

According to your definition, yes. There didn't used to be Americans living in San Miguel. Now there are. And that makes them invaders?

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

That is the start of an invasion.

See how San Fransicko went from being Part of Spain, then Mexico then the USA and now look at the place!

[fileboy2002]

But that isn't how it started. First, the area was conquered by Spain and made part of Mexico; Mexico fought for and won independence from Spain, so it became part of Mexico; the US invaded Mexico in 1847 and annexed most of California, making it part of the Us. At every step, you had armies battling each other over territory. That is nowhere near the same thing as immigration.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

For the most part Mexico didn't really invade San Fransico or for that matter Spain.

Spain just moved people there and set up shop. Mexico stole the land by defualt.

[fileboy2002]

I didn't say Mexico invaded San Francisco or Spain. I said that when Mexico gained its independence from Spain, San Francisco suddenly became Mexican territory. Why is this so hard to understand?

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy200

Those are examples of land that was taken over by migration only

[fileboy2002]

What are examples of it? And what does "taken over" mean? Try to answer using a little more detail, please.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

For example the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth rock (not with an army) but settlers within decades they were encroaching on lands that had for centuries been hunting grounds for the natives.

The same applies to certain areas of the USA. Areas that are now full of racist Hispanics that are literally pushing blacks out of their own neighborhoods

[fileboy2002]

The biggest obstacle to black Americans being able to live where they want is and always have been white Americans, not Latinos. As soon as a few blacks move into a neighborhood, whites flee, along with businesses, public services, etc. "Their own neighborhood?" Do you ever stop to think about WHY blacks and whites are so segregated. Sorry, but I am picking up from some of the things you say that you believe a lot of far-right B.S.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

Very intresting. So any speaking ill of Hispanics (of which I am hispanic) you think is far right B.S??

That is instresting considering

federal prosecutors said that " hispanic street gangs targeted African-American gang rivals and other blacks in a campaign of neighborhood "cleansing,"

Google the story in the LA TIMES

Latino gang tried to force blacks out

[fileboy2002]

Ethnic conflicts exist and often play out in fights over living space. There's nothing new about it, not even the "cleansing" part.

But these problems are far less severe in the US than, say, in parts of central Africa or the former Yugoslavia, where they are still finding mass graves. That's my point. Los que llaman la imigracion de latinos al EU una reconquista estan locos. No tienen nigun sentido de historia ni de las realidades del mundo. Me entiendes?

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

Pues claro que entiendo con una madre espanola te parece poco. ;)

But the facts are what they are. Hispanics are moving in and trying to change the face of the USA. Not for the better.

[fileboy2002]

Hispanics are no more trying to "change the face of the USA" than anyone else has. They have, but how can you say it's all been for the worse? What kind of place do you live in? I ask because I live in Chicago. When I go to the grocery store, I might hear 7 or 8 different languages. But so what? It's always been that way for me. And I am still here, living my life. The world hasn't ended. Are you one of those uppity Spaniards who hates Latin Americans? I don't get it.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

May people have changed the face of the USA some for the better others for the worse.

Do I hate Hispanics??? No my wife is from Mexico. Sure I get angry if she spends too much on a pair of shoes but other than that no.

Now just explain how a society can function when its citizens can't understand each other

[fileboy2002]

Are you talking about language? The unifying power of language is overstated. Most countires in the world are multilingual, as are most people. Europeans typically speak at least two languages, people in places like India and Africa speak 3 or 4. Multilingualism doesn't create problems. Forced monolingualism does, however. In any case, English is the dominant language here and will continue to be. Most Latinos favor English by the 2nd generation.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

Did you know English is the offical language in 45 nations. The USA isn't one of those nations!

Over rated??

I guess someone has to pick crops and dig ditches. I for one don't like the idea of so many Hispanics as 2nd class citizens. But then again it really isn't any of my buisness

[fileboy2002]

The US has no official language. There was an attempt, back in the 18th century, to declare an official language for the US. It was scuttled by its proponents once they realized that had a vote been permitted, the official language might well have turned out to be German!

I don't know what you mean when you say it's none of your business. The best thing about the Us if the idea of equality and justice. That ought to be something of convern to everyone.

[CandelarioGaIvan]

fileboy2002

And I live in Houston Texas, matter of fact most of the people I grew up with were 1st or 2nd generation Mexicans

[fileboy2002]

Well, I live in Chicago. We have the 2nd largest Mexican immigrant population in the US (after LA).

[fileboy2002]

Incidently, I didn't understand your last point. What is it I will see if I look at San Francisco?

[sanandreas6]

so what if there is 5 million muslims, did any of them come to your doorstep? Why are there soomany non-muslims in dubai? same thing

[CandelarioGaIvan]

sanandreas6

They seem to be worried about Americans in the middle east.

Are you saying that such ideas can only exist in one direction???

Millions of people can come to the USA so long as not a single america doesn't touch some holy city in the middle east??

[beteltree]

Aslan wins this round I think as his is a more nuanced argument if somewhat meandering. Manji is as ever herself -- and therefore strong in delivery. So far, it seems to me their views are not necessarily in conflict but are rather complementary. No reason each should not grab a different corner of the "muslim voice" soap box.

[saqib09]

Aslan knows what hes talking about. If this is a debate, sounds like it is, they should have brought someone who has enough intellectual capacity (or mental range if u like) to debate the guy.

[indusdolphin]

in 4:20 Aslan deflects Manji's argument that Muslims themselves have committed atrocities against Muslims in history by saying that other socieities and religions have done the same thing, but other religions are not under discussion, Islam is. Aslan commits a fallacy.

[seamr05]

I saw your comment before I reached 4:20don't think he deflects it, but merely tries to put place things into the right proportions. Because ( the way I understood it) she basically said that every act of violence committed in the muslim world can be related back 1400 years. This is a one-dimensional argument, considering that every war did not have it's root in religion.

[hansgruber81]

The problem I have with Irshad is that she makes superficial claims and somehow extrapolates them to apply to everything she sees as negative. Reza provides a much more elucidating arguement based on facts and evidence rather than generalization and conjecture.

[mrdhikrbeads]

Irshad tried to back up her claim of how monolithic Islam is with some flimsy evidence. If she wants to be convincing, she should stear away from debating with scholars, and stich preach to her choir.

[mrdhikrbeads]

I meant "....stich to preaching to her choir"

[Katharsis2006]

Reza Aslan seems like a pretty reasonable person. It seems Irshad Manji just wants to blame religion for almost any problem a muslim country faces, while these same problems are prevalent in a lot of other developing nations that are non-muslim. This just seems to be a significant misunderstanding of world politics as a whole. I still have to watch the rest of the debate however, so my opinion might change.

[shervman]

I can't believe Irshad is failing to see Reza's point, that you need economic and political development until people can focus on having prosperous lives.

How can you expect Sudanese people who've been living in desert with NOTHING literally to focus on prosperity and religious identity when most of them have to focus the majority of their time on survival. You need other kinds of development before you can focus on the rosy side of religion and spirituality.

[countertreason]

@shervman The same way that western Europe went from poor backward societies to the richest and most powerful societies in the world. Cultivate a better attitude toward one another and the world and work hard. Don't agitate the big dog who could rip you to shreds. Stop stealing from your fellow man.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

@shervman yes but underdeveloped religious ideas aren't going to help them develop politically and economically. You cannot hope to have a modern economy with half the population, (women) excluded for religious reasons. You also can't have a modern state in which religion is imposed upon people. The primary function of secularism isn't to limit religion, its to protect people's right to independent religious opinion. Which allows for religions like Islam to evolve to fit modernity.

[annata12]

@shervman How can you have economic and political development if you already have the perfect word of god in the form of a 7th century tribal ideology? Those things don't come from nothing, do you expect the Amish to create Computers, doe science and so forth? You need education and the institutions to support those structures. It's not magic, contrary to what your religion tells you.

[MissAPierce]

@shervman History doesn't support your and Reza's argument. Modes of thought and behavior don't change when things are good. The biggest and most effective revolutions in government and religion came about due to suffering; it's when poverty and violence are rampant that people realize the true nature of the totalitarian regime, religious or otherwise, that's causing it, and change. But usually they first need to see evidence of something better to strive for.

Go Irshad!

[minhuna]

What Irshad says is fair enough but I think she is only kissing ass!! Sorry kissing up!!

[ParadiseDestroyed]

Pat Robertson may have more power than Aminijad but the Ayatollah Khamenei has far, far, far more power than Pat Robertson could ever dream of.

A better comparison would have been Pat Robertson and Ayatollah Khamenei and you'll see that Pat Robertson has little power compared to the Ayatollah.