you are a heathen, larian. you go to hell and die. how dare you say such things about my god! my god is great and wonderful and is like batman. changes his voice for different people. instead of different settings.
I think the core problem here is we are trying to be demigods by attempting to understand God. That sounds pretty ridiculous to me. If, okay, if a god of any kind were to exist, the idea of a "god" is that it is above us or the "humans". If that is the case then how do we as humans fully grasp a "god"? We can't. With that said, yes I have heard God's response to my prayers. I can tell give you an example if you really want to know, but its rather long :P
@bballdragon5 I'm not sure you want to go down that road. If we are unable to understand God, as you claim, then I would posit we are completely unable to make any pronouncements at all about what he wants us to do. This relegates God to an ephemeral, unknown, and completely unknowable entity.
Placing God beyond the reach of human comprehension and logic leaves one in a bad position I'm afraid.
@Larian1975 I'm not sure if it leaves us in a bad position because it's just going back to where we started in the first place. Haha, I do give you some props cause my phrasing was probably not what I was trying to convey. Okay, so we can not make sense of God, but it does not mean we can't make any pronouncements. It clearly states in the Bible what we should do and not do. This gets into nitty gritty religious stuff, but God is not unknown, he reveals himself through Jesus.
@bballdragon5 Then what of other gods who are said to reveal themselves through their prophets, such as Allah, Osiris, and Mithra? Their holy texts are just as explicit as the Bible, but I'm going to guess that you do not put any stock in them.
As a side note, how do we know the Bible is even a factual account and not a work of fiction?
(I find myself enjoying this conversation as you strike me as being refreshingly "Christ-like" - a trait not common to Christians posting here I'm afraid.)
@Larian1975 True about the prophets, but I think a difference here is the trinity in which you have God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Calling Jesus a prophet would be making little his importance to Christianity...I mean the Truth that we as Christians believe in is that God sent Jesus into this world under a doctrine of love to die for us. For one, the Bible is a spiritual work, not a history textbook, If you check back at the historical record of the bible, it's pretty historically accurate.
@bballdragon5 Generally what the Bible tells us about is whether or not a certain city existed. Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed in a great fire, the existence of Miggido, and even Jericho we can find proof of. However I don't think we see evidence of the supernatural claims associated with them.
And what of the things the Bible says that there should be evidence of but isn't? Moses' 40 year wanderings come to mind. He's only mentioned in the bible and nowhere else. Not a trace to be found.
by the way, if you are truly seeking answers, you really should refrain from mocking the people you are asking.. it really becomes self-fulfilling when you say "i asked a tough question and nobody answered" if your question is riddled with mockery towards the people you want answering your questions.. unless of course, you dont really want an honest answer to your questions (which by the way, i find important to ask-- so no reason to stop asking, just do it more politely)
The question asked in the beginning of this video was of the type known as a rhetorical question. I was attempting to illustrate that these "personal relationships" could be nothing of the kind, and were in fact poetic nonsense. Such a "personal relationship" can only be imaginary.
If the Bible is to be believed, you should not have had "several" prayers answered, but instead had -all- of them answered. And it should not matter what you ask for.
thats not correct. the bible in no way describes God as a vending machine. look at all the examples of the great men of the bible.. many (all) went through great hardship. the bible does not say that we will receive everything we want.. Jesus Himself mentioned this. im not sure where you get this idea from. did you see the video i told you about? (the driscoll one)
secondly, it is only "impossible" because you cannot conceive of it, because in being an atheist you cannot break out of [contd]
that mindset and consider things outside of your atheist bubble. you realize this is exactly opposite to the scientific method, right?
and also, what is the point of asking such a question? this is not in the interest of exchange of ideas, rather just to mock those you disagree with.. venture a guess what this is called..
Matthew 21:22, John 16:23-24, and John 3:22 pretty much do describe God as a vending machine.
Regarding a bubble, could you be said to have a relationship with someone you've never met face to face, heard their voice, or carried on communication with other than imagining thoughts at one another? I would think not.
These videos are not intended to change a believer's mind. I know that nothing I say will have the slightest effect on your beliefs. I reach out to those who are sitting on [more]
matt21:22 is a conditional, John 16:23-24 says "in that day", what day is He talking about?? exactly.. and i think you typoed john3:22. whats the actual verse?
you and i have a relationship, right? all i have is a digital link between you and me.. typing. many others i dont even know what their face looks like. so even this conversation proves you wrong.
im not talking about changing a believers mind, im talking about open conversation. and yeah, exactly, [cont]
the fence, or are afraid to admit publicly that they do not buy into superstition.
Regarding what is possible to conceive of: You claim to possess mental faculties that I somehow do not. Quo Warranto: "By what right?" How do you figure this?
Finally, if you were wrong about your faith, how would you know? -Could- you know? Is there any way possible that you would even consider rethinking your beliefs? And if you're not willing, that would be the exact opposite of the scientific method.
you are picking what james white (if im not mistaken) refers to as "the low hanging fruit".. the people who can be led to believe anything.. whether its what i believe or what you believe.. so you bully them enough, and theyll join your side, cuz they never belonged to God anyways (which is what the bible says)
you are incapable of conceiving of the existence of God. therefore you cannot conceive of a God being able to do anything. QED.
I am amused, but not surprised, that quotations have been met with variations on "I just don't understand."
We indeed have a relationship. However you appear to have missed the part where I said "...heard their voice, or carried on communication with [each] other." This qualifies as communication.
Spare me the "low hanging fruit" stuff. This is exactly what churches have been doing since time immemorial. I specifically said I was reaching out to those who were afraid to come out. [more]
well, you have to read in context. anyone can misquote something and make it say something it is not. dont make a claim that is only supported by eisegesis.
yeah, ive never heard many people's voices.. not for that reason can i not have a relationship with them, nor does it mean they dont exist. yeah, and prayer and reading the bible is communication too. sort of like how you have some youtube channels with comments disabled. you can send messages, and then the person releases a video..
the fulfilled prophecies, 360+ in the person of Jesus alone, 190 of which cannot and could not have been fulfilled by anyone else. the fact that these prophecies were found in manuscripts dated 100 years before Jesus was born.. but, here comes the circular argumentation again.. wait for it.. wait for it..
"you are incapable of conceiving of the existence of God. therefore you cannot conceive of a God being able to do anything. QED."
You are arguing in a circle. Nothing has been demonstrated (as you claim) and no point has been made. This argument is perfectly analogous to "The sky is blue because blue is the color of the sky."
And why should we believe anything that is written in the bible?
perhaps directed at you, or whatever, but in application to all who see. this is the externally observable part of the relationship. the internally observable one is impossible for one who doesnt have the relationship to see. in the same way that you can safely assume i have a father, though you have never met me, or him.. and it would be quite ridiculous to deny that i have a father. so it is with denying there is a God.
no, its not circular, and im not using it as an argument for [cont]
anything other than the fact that YOU cannot conceive of it, therefore it is impossible for you to believe it, or believe any corollaries of it. its not a proof of anything, its just showing why you do not believe that God can do anything, because you refuse to acknowledge that God exists. this is circular. "you cannot communicate with God because i do not believe there is a God"
why should we believe? thats the best question youve asked so far. mainly because of all [..]
May I say that it is incredibly presumptuous of you to decide what I am capable of conceptualizing. It is also becoming increasingly apparent to me that you don't know what you're talking about in matters of logic and mathematics because you're using terms incorrectly. Please stop doing this.
Lastly, you've turned this "open discussion" into a preaching session. There can be no debate with dogma because dogma is impervious to reason. And you, sir, are handing me dogma by the fistful.
but i thought you said you werent interested in discussion anyways.
in any case, its not presumptuous because its how you stated your argument for what God can or cannot do as a function of your own personal belief regarding His existence.
im not sure what terms you say im not using correctly, or what dogma you are talking about (without of course, being hypocritical given your own "God does not exist, therefore.." dogma)
You know, it strikes me that I've been going about this whole thing the wrong way. Why don't you try finding out what it is that I believe instead of telling me things I've already heard elsewhere? Ask me how I account for some notion that you believe only religion can satisfy. You might be surprised at how consistent, honest, and approachable it all is.
actually i was going by what you state in this video only. you cannot conceive of having a relationship with a being you do not believe in. this is obvious. the problem is that you made a video mocking those who claim they have a relationship with said being. in other words, you find the concept so worthy of ridicule, because you cannot conceive of there being a personal creator God. if you thought it was possible, then why would you mock those who state it is true? see?
As to prophecy, I believe we both agree that the Old Testament was written before the New Testament. It is far more likely that the authors of the New Testament -read- the Old Testament and wrote the fulfillment of said prophecies accordingly than to believe magical claims somehow came true.
You keep mentioning God. Which god? How do you account for the tens of thousands of gods man has invented and claimed were real? Worse, what if you've picked the wrong god?
well, we can pretty easily eliminate all those gods who have died (and stayed dead) in their own mythology (eg, zeus) any gods who no longer have a serious following (not to say its an issue of popularity, but a living god should make sure he has some subjects, if he has any power whatsoever of revealing himself). we can then get serious and eliminate any gods who predicted things that did not occur, since that would mean they are not aware of the future, and hence not all knowing..
John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. [ESV]
Psalm50:14 Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, and perform your vows to the Most High,and call upon me in the day of trouble;I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me."
Psalm50:16But to the wicked God says:"What right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenant on your lips?
17 For you hate discipline, and you cast my words behind you.18If you see a thief, you are pleased with him,and you keep company with adulterers.
God doesnt owe anyone an ear. it is us who owe God everything, and you arrogantly demand from God that He do according to your bidding? you have set up for yourself a different God to hate than the one of the bible
Um....I'm not quite sure how to respond to this...first of all...What the hell are you talking about? This made absolutely no since whatsoever. I my intellect has suffered a minute injury for having been subjected to this random drivel. If you care to actually address a point, please feel free. Otherwise spare us the rather disconcerting nonsense.
you say "likely" but instead you should write "easier for me to believe".. likelihood has nothing to do with truth.. if so, then you would have to throw all your beliefs out the window.. since it is logically impossible that everything we see came about from nothing, yet that is the basic atheistic tenet of belief, either that or the belief in infinite regress.. again, another logical impossibility
Yum...likelihood has everything to do with truth. If something is likely to be true...it is just that. And no, we do not throw our beliefs out the window unless they are show to be false via preponderance of the evidence at hand. Also, I am not aware of a single "atheist" who believes that everything came from nothing. Thus this certainly cannot be a basic tenet of atheistic "belief"... whatever that is. And please demonstrate that an infinite regress of causality is logically impossible.
wow, you managed to contradict yourself in the second sentence.
so, answer me this then, where did the universe come from? and saying "we dont know" will just be a cop out in refusal to acknowledge an infinite, eternal, intelligent, creative entity.. also known as the definition of God
Where did I contradict myself? I mean it does happen from time to time...but I am not seeing it here. So...I don't know is not a valid answer eh? Well how is that fair? 'Cause I don't know...and you don't either. I am guessing the universe always existed in some form or another. I see no reason to believe otherwise. I would LOVE to acknowledge a god. However, if one exist, it would seem that, for whatever reason, it is not making itself known.
you first said that likelihood has everything to do with truth. and then you said that you dont throw your beliefs out the window unless they are shown to be false via a _preponderance of evidence_.
it is not likely (as a matter of fact it is impossible) that the universe created itself or began existing spontaneously without cause, yet you believe this without ANY evidence! simply because you cannot acknowledge a Creator God!
the universe cannot have existed forever, thats an infinite regress
You must have misunderstood me. What I mean by this is that...well...I mean what I said. It would be irrational to dispatch an idea that is supported by available evidence. Such an idea is more likely true than not. If, however, new evidence shows that an idea is UNLIKELY to be true, then yes...it is rational to reevaluate the validity of said idea.
so im expecting you to drop your atheistic beliefs, given this.
unless you are just being idealistically dishonest.. ie, saying this is what should be the case, but when a concept or notion does not benefit you, suddenly the above doesnt apply. in other words, sure, you follow the "evidence" unless it means that you will have to face the justice of a fair and perfectly holy God at the end of your life.. and all that that implies
I would love to meet the god responsible for this existence. Though I fear he would have little interest in me.
You can expect whatever you like. My beliefs are not so much atheistic as they are...open. I have just woken up in the universe and really do not know much about it. I see no evidence for a god but then, one may not expect to as such an entity would likely be beyond bothering to dabble in our small corner of reality.
Is this the only reason you believe...fear of judgement?
fear is not a reason to believe, i dont believe in the boogie monster not because i am afraid, but rather because my other beliefs conflict with it.
the bible says that God is not just interested but highly involved in ALL of His creation. He gets mad, sad, and glad over the events that go on here.. He cares, its His creation after all.
a terrible reason not to believe in God is because you dont understand or /like/ what is going on in this earth.. the bible says that God doesnt like it eithe
I certainly do agree that fear is a terrible reason to believe in anything. Yoda was quite right regarding the eventual outcome of a fear.
If you don't mind me asking then, why do you believe in your god? As you pointed out, the bible describes a god that is highly involved in his creation... yet we cannot seem to observe this god.
I must disagree with you, as I understand you, regarding your last comment. Lack of evidence is a VERY good reason not to believe in something.
well i didnt say that lack of evidence isnt a good reason to not believe.. i said that not agreeing with what is going on in the world is not a reason to reject God.
do we agree on the infinite regress thing now?
i think its an excellent question to ask people why they believe. i think the worst thing an atheist can say is that there is no evidence, since clearly the existence of God is something "evident" to at least 98% of the population of earth. that its not sufficient for you is a
I don't think the existence of god is "evident" to anyone. Certainly not 98% of people on the planet though I do assume that was just a statistic made up off hand (98% of them are:)) I do not see any evidence for the christian god...however god in general is a very ill defined idea. I agree that asking people why they believe is a good thing...that is why I asked you. You certainly do not need to feel obligate to answer however.
ok, i have a few mins before i sleep... for the 98% yeah, it was clearly a made up stat.. i was being pretty generous allowing for a rough estimate of 140million people who do not believe in some form of divinity, im guessing its much much lower than that. evident in the sense of the phrase "it is evident to me that.." in other words, obvious, and clearly to be the case. there has yet to be found any population on earth, no matter how remote, that did not believe in some form of deity
the issue is not in believing in a deity, but rather in defining the identity of that deity.. and thats where the non-evident part comes in. but it can very easily be narrowed down to some form of monotheism by applying mere logic and putting some thought into it i wrote a pretty simple explanation of this on my site insaner dot and then com and then goto godproof on left hand side check it out and tell me what you think
Thus, failing to find any evidence for a particular idea is a good reason to at least remain highly skeptical of said idea. If, however, observation of the world around us brings forth evidence that contradicts an idea, this is a very good reason to reject the idea.
You never addressed the infinite regress thing...why would you think I would suddenly change my mind? Gesh...this is like talking to my wife! Sometimes I think half the conversation only occurs in her head!
different story. and perhaps a valid one, though i cannot acknowledge it as such, since i open my eyes and see everything that is and say "this cant just have come about on its own".. as you said you agree with, right?
the problem i see in atheists is that they have had really bad experiences with religious people (hey, as we all have) but the fact that there are evil people who say they know your dad does not mean your dad doesnt exist
but to answer your question, just seeing all of creation w
"but to answer your question, just seeing all of creation"
I think I know where you are coming from. However I must say that I do not see anything in the world that necessarily speaks to the existence of a god--certainly not any particular god.
was not enough to tell me /who/ God is.. only that there is a creative entity out there with the aforementioned properties. but the way i know that it is the God of the bible is in surveying the other belief systems.. what the claims are and what the outcome of those claims is.. in the bible, like i said, there are hundreds of claims made about the future.. claims which were fulfilled and are acknowledged by historians and scholars on both sides of the fence.. such as the historical person of
"there are hundreds of claims made about the future.. claims which were fulfilled and are acknowledged by historians and scholars on both sides of the fence"
Can you give any examples...I am not aware of any such predictions.
if you type "bible prophecies" in google, you will find more than i can list, many with precise dates etc..
also, i tried looking up historians who denied the historicity of Jesus and couldnt find more than a handful, and these, based on what i think we can conclude as mere wishful thinking.
the fact that many claiming messiahship arose in the time testifies to the expectation of a messiah due to the prophecies (daniel gave the exact year).. i guess you also saw zeitgeist.. dont get me started!
i dont think anyone who takes that movie at face value can call himself someone who values the truth. a quick search on any of the points made in that movie (in its "christian" section) would see how incredibly inaccurate the claims are.. the boldest off the top of my head: saying that Jesus was born on the 25th of december.. holey wow.. awful scholarship.. and also the stuff claimed about mithra and horus.. honestly.. im sure if you type it up in google you might be embarrassed to see how much
garbage you actually took to be true without a second thought. the whole movie i was smacking my head.. i still cant believe people take any of it seriously.
anyways, to go back to the infinite regress.. (i will answer larian here too) nothing can spring into existence of itself.. not even God. this is called self-creation and is a logical impossibility.. ex nihilo nihil fit. you cant create anything if you dont exist, therefore you cant create yourself. if the universe sprang into existence--
it must necessarily have been caused outside of itself.. ie, there must be a cause to the universe. and that cause must be outside of time and outside of the bounds of space too, otherwise it would be begging the question (ie, pushing the question one step further back but not closer to the answer) this cause must be an intelligent/creative cause with the ability to create.. this implies personality (person-ness) and this is how we define God.. infinite, eternal, with the ability to create
if God were finite, or temporal, that means He necessarily would have a beginning, and that disqualifies Him as God... because if He had a beginning, either He self created (impossible) or He Himself was created by someone else (which would be begging the question.. and whoever created Him would therefore be God.. etc)
im still not sure if we agree on the infinite regress
Jesus. in whom, as i said, 360+ prophecies were fulfilled, 190 of which cannot be fulfilled by anyone else, ever. the historical person of Jesus is not denied by any serious scholar, and even jews acknowledge He existed, the only difference is they do not acknowledge Him as messiah, given His claims of deity (and even this was prophesied, that the messiah promised to the jews would be rejected by His own people and that God would raise for Himself a gentile nation of believers, which only occurs
The historical person of Jesus is most certainly denied quite vehemently by a large percentage of historians. This claim is just categorically false. There actually were a lot of "messiahs" during the time of christ. Many historians believe the jesus of the new testament is just a compilation of these men's stories. I find this suspect myself. I think the man, Jesus, probably existed. However it does seem evident that many of the stories were reattributed to him from earlier events.
with Jesus.. nobody else can ever fulfill that prophecy again. interestingly demonstrating how He indeed IS the messiah.
that is just the objective aspect of it, there is also the personal aspect of it. you see, i wasnt a christian till the age of 19.. i mightve been exposed to christian teachings, the bible etc.. but it wasnt until i applied the promises of the bible to my own life that there was ever any difference of any sort. Jesus says we must repent and believe, just as He said to lazarus
"get up and walk".. when lazarus was dead.. the point is that it was an impossible command to fulfill for a dead person.. UNLESS he was brought to life.. and thats the point. Jesus commanded it and it occurred, the same as how He commands us to repent, to turn away from our sins, but as people who are dead in their sins, this is impossible, unless it is by Jesus that we are brought to life in order to fulfill it. and thats what happened in my life. i heard the command to repent and responded
but because i had been brought back to life. but you know how people say they have "spiritual" experiences all the time.. and it really means nothing.. well, for me, i started seeing inexplicable things occurring in my life within a week of this event.. things outside of my control that reaffirmed what the bible promised time and time again.
the same way that anyone would be irrational to claim they have no father, despite never having physically met him, im at the same point with my God
sorry, some of my posts are cut abruptly because of the character count.. assume they follow each other..
i really have to continue this on monday, since i have something really urgent to do that i have sort of not done yet.. if i finish early i will continue answering your posts today.. but keep answering i will get back to your questions as soon as i can
I do not believe the universe sprang into existence without a cause. I am of the belief that the "universe" has always existed in some form. And again, I would love to acknowledge a god...I am very open to evidence regarding the existence of such an entity and would find this prospect fascinating. Stop asserting that I believe that which I do not. It if very offensive. And again I ask you to please demonstrate why an infinite regress in causality is not possible.
we cannot "add" events into the past.. as the past is passed. if an infinite regress were possible, we would never reach "now", because it would just be a constant string of events going on, and "now" would just be the end of that string.. but then it wouldnt be infinite, it would be finite.. there would be an end.. and that end would be "now".
if we cannot get past this basic point i cannot start providing any sort of evidence for you as we are not even operating by the same set of rules
Hey Larian...remember me? I thought so. and YES...God does answer Prayer. In my church alone I have seen the sick healed, LIVES TRANSFORMED , drug addicts forgiven and broken marriages healed. These MIRACLES only happen because the recipients have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the God who gave you life, sustains you every day and then you turn and mock Him. Those who distance themselves from God in this life will know what REAL DISTANCE is in the next.
They were into meth really bad and it was killing them. It was intervention by friends and family that got them off drugs and hard work that got them back on their feet.
NO. I'm not talking about someone who has kicked a drug habit..because that is not a transformation. I am talking about someone who kicked the drug habit and SURRENDERED their old life to Christ. The transformation which is so radical , you and all his friends make fun of him behind his back. The guy that was really bad at one time but now spends time studying God's Word and seeking God's direction in his life. THAT...my friend is an answer to someone's PRAYERS.
This is called begging the question, and it's a logical fallacy. You aren't willing to take any definition of a "transformed life" that does not include your particular brand of superstition.
And no, we do not make fun of them behind their back. We're proud of them. This might be hard for you to understand. Then again I've never seen you attempt to understand anything.
As for prayers, before you attempt to claim your Jesus had anything to do with this, you should know they're pagan.
and like i said, if there was an infinite number of events leading to now, we would never reach now. its impossible. therefore the universe had a beginning, just as time requires that first event to occur. and it must therefore have been caused externally, as nothing is capable of creating itself, not even God. and this external cause MUST be eternal (not bound by time) infinite (not bound by space) intelligent and capable of creating (otherwise nothing would exist)
Hate to jump in the middle of a conversation like this, but I just want to point out that you are in error about your notion of infinity. Mathematically, there have been an infinitely divisible number of events since the time I posted this and the time you read it.
Secondly, the infinite regress which you say is impossible would have to apply to any creator of the Universe, would it not? Occam's razor says we cut the creator part out.
hi larian, sadly i think you misunderstand the concept of infinite divisibility.. time is finite, the distance between two numbers is finite.. can be measured. that the space between them can be "divided infinitely" is not a true infinity.. the distance does not expand as you keep dividing, the distance remains the same, remains finite. and no, there were not an infinite amount of events between the two, it was still finite. no matter how small you make the distance between any two events--
they are still distinct, finite events, and the distance between the two is what we call "time".
occams razor says you must remove all unnecessary premises, whereas the cause for an event is a necessary premise. removing God would be a violation of occams razor
I misunderstand? Really now? I trust you will forgive me for finding that funny.
I can only tell you that here with regard to time and infinity you tread upon my professional expertise, and you are wrong.
As to necessary premises, Occam's razor applies. If God is the first cause of the Universe, then you are forced to admit that he himself had a cause. Doubtless you would argue that God is the uncaused cause, which is a logical fallacy. Specifically it is "Argument for Special Treatment."
God cannot have had a cause, if so, He would have had a beginning, and hence by definition that would make Him finite and temporal, which would then exclude Him from being the definition of God.. and whatever entity responsible for His existence, that would be defined as "God".. like i said, begging the question.
removing the uncaused cause would violate occams razor, as you are removing a necessary entity, which occams razor does not allow
Who is to say it wasn't the Universe which had no cause? This is by far the simplest explanation of the current state of affairs, and if true, could exist without a creator god. The god of Abraham is now an "entity which is multiplied beyond necessity" - the definition of Occam's razor. This is the simplest premise from which to begin. The postulation of an infinitely complex immortal creator merely confuses the issue.
the universe cant have had no cause since the universe is bound by space and time.. its made up of stuff and things happen in it. there must necessarily have been a first event.
also, why must God be infinitely complex? and wouldnt this statement, if you apply it to God, therefore also apply to your universe?
dont forget that occams razor is a principle, its not a law.
Yes, it is possible for the Universe to be infinitely complex depending on its size. If the Universe is infinite in size, then it follows that it is also infinite in complexity.
Further, since nothing can design a thing more complex than itself, (a maxim) God would have to be more complex than the Universe he designed.
As to the cause of the Universe, nobody knows. Not me, not you, not anybody else. But for everything we *do* know, God doesn't seem to fit in anywhere other than a fantasy.
but do you see what you are doing? you are stating the universe can be infinitely complex, whereas God cannot. this is getting us closer to the source of your atheism.
you state that nothing can design a thing more complex than itself, i dont think this can be proven. it doesnt make sense to me at all unless we define what complexity means.
and your third part is where you shed final light on the source of your atheism, which is what i had pointed out 3months ago... you refuse to acknowledge
You are putting words in my mouth. It was *you* sir, who asked why God must be infinitely complex, and I quote:
"also, why must God be infinitely complex?"
This is dirty and underhanded.
Also, you do not appear to understand the definition of an axiom (Which I mistakenly called a maxim - I was tired).
Regarding honest scholarship, you take quite a few liberties with knowledge of my education and background. You insinuate that I have decided to cast off gods out-of-hand because (more)
yes, i asked why God must be infinitely complex, you stated then that the reason was because He had to be more complex than the universe, stating that this was an axiom (the rules of the game, with no need to be proven) but its not an agreed upon one. i dont see why this must be.
i also dont see why you accuse me of being dirty and underhanded. if you misunderstood me, (or i you) thats one thing, but dont accuse me. this is a civil discussion, lets both be reasonable.
take liberties with knowledge of your education, i have no knowledge of your education, all i know is based on what you write here.. i made an educated guess/conclusion based on that, but im not assuming this out of just assumption.
I was essentially bored one day. This is as foolish as it is wrong. If I were so inclined, (and had more than 500 characters) I could explain to you in detail why I reject the notion of gods. Unfortunately, experience has taught me that you would likely be unwilling to hear the answer.
Therefore, you may go on believing whatever you want about me. However this "debate" is nearing its end. Note how we have gone from discussing God ...to ad hominem aganst me and dissecting my life.
not sure where you think i have offended you, but let me assure you, that wasnt my intent. and yes, i actually would be interested in knowing why you reject God, this is the kind of thing i find interesting.. but i also understand its really personal and intimate and understand if you do not want to share. to be honest, i have yet to encounter a person who labels themselves an atheist who was not in some way egregiously wronged by someone who labeled themselves a believer,or life in general
"i actually would be interested in knowing why you reject God, this is the kind of thing i find interesting."
People reject God because of the particular SIN which consumes them. It may be pornography, an immoral sexual relationship, alcohol, addiction to gambling, the sin of PRIDE, SELFISHNESS, BITTERNESS etc. We are all born as atheists. None of us know God when we are born but those who seek Him...God has promised to reveal Himself.
romans3:10 As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.
@insaner169 That's the thing though, the universe can be infinitely complex without a static beginning or ending. You stated earlier that it has to have a beginning because it is bound by space and time which is a contradiction in its own. For one, time is a man made creation; second, space is matter... which I don't see why it binds the universe to a beggining.
As for the god thing, its used as a way to cheat death as well as answer questions that seem to immense for the human mind to grasp.
any such evidence that can show that there is a creator God, you discard as fantasy. this is not true, honest, scholarship.
you had some bad experiences with people who claimed to be of faith in God, and you associated the two together. therefore, the easiest way to deal with it is to simply say "therefore, there is no God". its an easy way to cope, but its not a truthful one. if you then deny this, think about how many times you have made reference to the "bad things theists do", crusades etc
This is just categorically false. By this same reasoning no atom would ever emit a photon and no finite amount of time would ever pass nor would anything ever transverse a finite distance. We exist "NOW" by definition. This is the point from which we are currently observing the universe. We have fare to feeble an understanding of the nature of time to make any more detailed assertions
So taken to its logical conclusion, you must conclude that there is no such thing as eternity. When we die and go to heaven, we will only get to spend a short time there before... what? Time comes to an end? Then what do we do? By all your prior arguments, we must then exist either outside of space and time, experiencing all of eternity in one single, boring moment, or we simply must cease to exist. By default, these amount to the same thing. There can be no more experience.
no, time can go on indefinitely, just not into the past.. the future can be infinite.. but at any point, even within that infinite continuum, the past must be finite.
its only the infinite regress that is impossible, because you cannot "add" events to the past, only to the present/future..
You keep claiming I am making the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, and I wish you'd stop doing it. I am not saying "I don't understand how God can exist, therefore he doesn't." I am saying that God, as Christianity has defined him, is logically impossible and plainly invented. I am saying that this god is self-contradictory, and I am saying that there is no evidence for his being real, and quite a bit to suggest that he's not.
and then remove all the gods who in their own mythology are not creators (ie, pretty much all greek gods other than chronos or thesis, depends on which tradition you follow).. a god must be self-existent, or else he isnt really a god.
that leaves us slim-pickins, basically the monotheistic gods.. of which we have less than you can count on one hand. if we then select only gods that made claims of the future that DID come true, we are left with only a single one. guess which one.
I am trying to guess but I can't...I am not aware of ANY god who has made any claims whatsoever with regards to the future...and certainly non that have come true. Please enlighten me!
from around 2000 years to about 400 years before Christ was born, there were hundreds of predictions made, also called prophecies. 360+ were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ alone (including the exact date He appears).. with 190 of which that cannot be fulfilled by another person in history, ever. there are many many other prophecies, including the destruction of the temple, and even the recent forming of the state of israel.. and these are just to name a few of the fulfilled prophecies
hey, ill answer this video here, since i just saw it.
yeah! ive had several prayers answered, some within seconds if i remember correctly. its why i live in the country i live in, and am married to the woman i married, and etc.. im not the only one, i know lots of people who have had also, several prayers answered.
in regards to prayers getting answered, look up mark driscolls video on prayer "what have you stopped praying about"..
Hi Larian1975. Like your videos. Great stuff.
Futureplanet 3 months ago
you are a heathen, larian. you go to hell and die. how dare you say such things about my god! my god is great and wonderful and is like batman. changes his voice for different people. instead of different settings.
goobergelslady 6 months ago
I have had many prayers answered, including healing for myself and others. I don't like your irreverent attitude.
jbooks888 6 months ago
@jbooks888 Good.
You have a wonderful day now.
Larian1975 6 months ago
I think the core problem here is we are trying to be demigods by attempting to understand God. That sounds pretty ridiculous to me. If, okay, if a god of any kind were to exist, the idea of a "god" is that it is above us or the "humans". If that is the case then how do we as humans fully grasp a "god"? We can't. With that said, yes I have heard God's response to my prayers. I can tell give you an example if you really want to know, but its rather long :P
bballdragon5 10 months ago
@bballdragon5 I'm not sure you want to go down that road. If we are unable to understand God, as you claim, then I would posit we are completely unable to make any pronouncements at all about what he wants us to do. This relegates God to an ephemeral, unknown, and completely unknowable entity.
Placing God beyond the reach of human comprehension and logic leaves one in a bad position I'm afraid.
Larian1975 10 months ago
@Larian1975 I'm not sure if it leaves us in a bad position because it's just going back to where we started in the first place. Haha, I do give you some props cause my phrasing was probably not what I was trying to convey. Okay, so we can not make sense of God, but it does not mean we can't make any pronouncements. It clearly states in the Bible what we should do and not do. This gets into nitty gritty religious stuff, but God is not unknown, he reveals himself through Jesus.
bballdragon5 10 months ago
@bballdragon5 Then what of other gods who are said to reveal themselves through their prophets, such as Allah, Osiris, and Mithra? Their holy texts are just as explicit as the Bible, but I'm going to guess that you do not put any stock in them.
As a side note, how do we know the Bible is even a factual account and not a work of fiction?
(I find myself enjoying this conversation as you strike me as being refreshingly "Christ-like" - a trait not common to Christians posting here I'm afraid.)
Larian1975 10 months ago
@Larian1975 True about the prophets, but I think a difference here is the trinity in which you have God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Calling Jesus a prophet would be making little his importance to Christianity...I mean the Truth that we as Christians believe in is that God sent Jesus into this world under a doctrine of love to die for us. For one, the Bible is a spiritual work, not a history textbook, If you check back at the historical record of the bible, it's pretty historically accurate.
bballdragon5 9 months ago
@bballdragon5 Generally what the Bible tells us about is whether or not a certain city existed. Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed in a great fire, the existence of Miggido, and even Jericho we can find proof of. However I don't think we see evidence of the supernatural claims associated with them.
And what of the things the Bible says that there should be evidence of but isn't? Moses' 40 year wanderings come to mind. He's only mentioned in the bible and nowhere else. Not a trace to be found.
Larian1975 9 months ago
by the way, if you are truly seeking answers, you really should refrain from mocking the people you are asking.. it really becomes self-fulfilling when you say "i asked a tough question and nobody answered" if your question is riddled with mockery towards the people you want answering your questions.. unless of course, you dont really want an honest answer to your questions (which by the way, i find important to ask-- so no reason to stop asking, just do it more politely)
insaner169 2 years ago
The question asked in the beginning of this video was of the type known as a rhetorical question. I was attempting to illustrate that these "personal relationships" could be nothing of the kind, and were in fact poetic nonsense. Such a "personal relationship" can only be imaginary.
If the Bible is to be believed, you should not have had "several" prayers answered, but instead had -all- of them answered. And it should not matter what you ask for.
Larian1975 2 years ago
thats not correct. the bible in no way describes God as a vending machine. look at all the examples of the great men of the bible.. many (all) went through great hardship. the bible does not say that we will receive everything we want.. Jesus Himself mentioned this. im not sure where you get this idea from. did you see the video i told you about? (the driscoll one)
secondly, it is only "impossible" because you cannot conceive of it, because in being an atheist you cannot break out of [contd]
insaner169 2 years ago
that mindset and consider things outside of your atheist bubble. you realize this is exactly opposite to the scientific method, right?
and also, what is the point of asking such a question? this is not in the interest of exchange of ideas, rather just to mock those you disagree with.. venture a guess what this is called..
insaner169 2 years ago
Matthew 21:22, John 16:23-24, and John 3:22 pretty much do describe God as a vending machine.
Regarding a bubble, could you be said to have a relationship with someone you've never met face to face, heard their voice, or carried on communication with other than imagining thoughts at one another? I would think not.
These videos are not intended to change a believer's mind. I know that nothing I say will have the slightest effect on your beliefs. I reach out to those who are sitting on [more]
Larian1975 2 years ago
matt21:22 is a conditional, John 16:23-24 says "in that day", what day is He talking about?? exactly.. and i think you typoed john3:22. whats the actual verse?
you and i have a relationship, right? all i have is a digital link between you and me.. typing. many others i dont even know what their face looks like. so even this conversation proves you wrong.
im not talking about changing a believers mind, im talking about open conversation. and yeah, exactly, [cont]
insaner169 2 years ago
the fence, or are afraid to admit publicly that they do not buy into superstition.
Regarding what is possible to conceive of: You claim to possess mental faculties that I somehow do not. Quo Warranto: "By what right?" How do you figure this?
Finally, if you were wrong about your faith, how would you know? -Could- you know? Is there any way possible that you would even consider rethinking your beliefs? And if you're not willing, that would be the exact opposite of the scientific method.
Larian1975 2 years ago
you are picking what james white (if im not mistaken) refers to as "the low hanging fruit".. the people who can be led to believe anything.. whether its what i believe or what you believe.. so you bully them enough, and theyll join your side, cuz they never belonged to God anyways (which is what the bible says)
you are incapable of conceiving of the existence of God. therefore you cannot conceive of a God being able to do anything. QED.
i was not brought up with these beliefs. so yes.
insaner169 2 years ago
I am amused, but not surprised, that quotations have been met with variations on "I just don't understand."
We indeed have a relationship. However you appear to have missed the part where I said "...heard their voice, or carried on communication with [each] other." This qualifies as communication.
Spare me the "low hanging fruit" stuff. This is exactly what churches have been doing since time immemorial. I specifically said I was reaching out to those who were afraid to come out. [more]
Larian1975 2 years ago
well, you have to read in context. anyone can misquote something and make it say something it is not. dont make a claim that is only supported by eisegesis.
yeah, ive never heard many people's voices.. not for that reason can i not have a relationship with them, nor does it mean they dont exist. yeah, and prayer and reading the bible is communication too. sort of like how you have some youtube channels with comments disabled. you can send messages, and then the person releases a video..
insaner169 2 years ago
the fulfilled prophecies, 360+ in the person of Jesus alone, 190 of which cannot and could not have been fulfilled by anyone else. the fact that these prophecies were found in manuscripts dated 100 years before Jesus was born.. but, here comes the circular argumentation again.. wait for it.. wait for it..
insaner169 2 years ago
"you are incapable of conceiving of the existence of God. therefore you cannot conceive of a God being able to do anything. QED."
You are arguing in a circle. Nothing has been demonstrated (as you claim) and no point has been made. This argument is perfectly analogous to "The sky is blue because blue is the color of the sky."
And why should we believe anything that is written in the bible?
Larian1975 2 years ago
perhaps directed at you, or whatever, but in application to all who see. this is the externally observable part of the relationship. the internally observable one is impossible for one who doesnt have the relationship to see. in the same way that you can safely assume i have a father, though you have never met me, or him.. and it would be quite ridiculous to deny that i have a father. so it is with denying there is a God.
no, its not circular, and im not using it as an argument for [cont]
insaner169 2 years ago
anything other than the fact that YOU cannot conceive of it, therefore it is impossible for you to believe it, or believe any corollaries of it. its not a proof of anything, its just showing why you do not believe that God can do anything, because you refuse to acknowledge that God exists. this is circular. "you cannot communicate with God because i do not believe there is a God"
why should we believe? thats the best question youve asked so far. mainly because of all [..]
insaner169 2 years ago
May I say that it is incredibly presumptuous of you to decide what I am capable of conceptualizing. It is also becoming increasingly apparent to me that you don't know what you're talking about in matters of logic and mathematics because you're using terms incorrectly. Please stop doing this.
Lastly, you've turned this "open discussion" into a preaching session. There can be no debate with dogma because dogma is impervious to reason. And you, sir, are handing me dogma by the fistful.
Larian1975 2 years ago
but i thought you said you werent interested in discussion anyways.
in any case, its not presumptuous because its how you stated your argument for what God can or cannot do as a function of your own personal belief regarding His existence.
im not sure what terms you say im not using correctly, or what dogma you are talking about (without of course, being hypocritical given your own "God does not exist, therefore.." dogma)
insaner169 2 years ago
You know, it strikes me that I've been going about this whole thing the wrong way. Why don't you try finding out what it is that I believe instead of telling me things I've already heard elsewhere? Ask me how I account for some notion that you believe only religion can satisfy. You might be surprised at how consistent, honest, and approachable it all is.
Larian1975 2 years ago
actually i was going by what you state in this video only. you cannot conceive of having a relationship with a being you do not believe in. this is obvious. the problem is that you made a video mocking those who claim they have a relationship with said being. in other words, you find the concept so worthy of ridicule, because you cannot conceive of there being a personal creator God. if you thought it was possible, then why would you mock those who state it is true? see?
insaner169 2 years ago
As to prophecy, I believe we both agree that the Old Testament was written before the New Testament. It is far more likely that the authors of the New Testament -read- the Old Testament and wrote the fulfillment of said prophecies accordingly than to believe magical claims somehow came true.
You keep mentioning God. Which god? How do you account for the tens of thousands of gods man has invented and claimed were real? Worse, what if you've picked the wrong god?
Larian1975 2 years ago
well, we can pretty easily eliminate all those gods who have died (and stayed dead) in their own mythology (eg, zeus) any gods who no longer have a serious following (not to say its an issue of popularity, but a living god should make sure he has some subjects, if he has any power whatsoever of revealing himself). we can then get serious and eliminate any gods who predicted things that did not occur, since that would mean they are not aware of the future, and hence not all knowing..
insaner169 2 years ago
And we can eliminate any gods who do not answer when called upon....at least those that claim they will. There goes the christian god!
goobergel 2 years ago
John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. [ESV]
Psalm50:14 Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, and perform your vows to the Most High,and call upon me in the day of trouble;I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me."
insaner169 2 years ago
Psalm50:16But to the wicked God says:"What right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenant on your lips?
17 For you hate discipline, and you cast my words behind you.18If you see a thief, you are pleased with him,and you keep company with adulterers.
God doesnt owe anyone an ear. it is us who owe God everything, and you arrogantly demand from God that He do according to your bidding? you have set up for yourself a different God to hate than the one of the bible
insaner169 2 years ago
Um....I'm not quite sure how to respond to this...first of all...What the hell are you talking about? This made absolutely no since whatsoever. I my intellect has suffered a minute injury for having been subjected to this random drivel. If you care to actually address a point, please feel free. Otherwise spare us the rather disconcerting nonsense.
goobergel 2 years ago
you say "likely" but instead you should write "easier for me to believe".. likelihood has nothing to do with truth.. if so, then you would have to throw all your beliefs out the window.. since it is logically impossible that everything we see came about from nothing, yet that is the basic atheistic tenet of belief, either that or the belief in infinite regress.. again, another logical impossibility
insaner169 2 years ago
Yum...likelihood has everything to do with truth. If something is likely to be true...it is just that. And no, we do not throw our beliefs out the window unless they are show to be false via preponderance of the evidence at hand. Also, I am not aware of a single "atheist" who believes that everything came from nothing. Thus this certainly cannot be a basic tenet of atheistic "belief"... whatever that is. And please demonstrate that an infinite regress of causality is logically impossible.
goobergel 2 years ago
wow, you managed to contradict yourself in the second sentence.
so, answer me this then, where did the universe come from? and saying "we dont know" will just be a cop out in refusal to acknowledge an infinite, eternal, intelligent, creative entity.. also known as the definition of God
insaner169 2 years ago
Where did I contradict myself? I mean it does happen from time to time...but I am not seeing it here. So...I don't know is not a valid answer eh? Well how is that fair? 'Cause I don't know...and you don't either. I am guessing the universe always existed in some form or another. I see no reason to believe otherwise. I would LOVE to acknowledge a god. However, if one exist, it would seem that, for whatever reason, it is not making itself known.
goobergel 2 years ago
you first said that likelihood has everything to do with truth. and then you said that you dont throw your beliefs out the window unless they are shown to be false via a _preponderance of evidence_.
it is not likely (as a matter of fact it is impossible) that the universe created itself or began existing spontaneously without cause, yet you believe this without ANY evidence! simply because you cannot acknowledge a Creator God!
the universe cannot have existed forever, thats an infinite regress
insaner169 2 years ago
You must have misunderstood me. What I mean by this is that...well...I mean what I said. It would be irrational to dispatch an idea that is supported by available evidence. Such an idea is more likely true than not. If, however, new evidence shows that an idea is UNLIKELY to be true, then yes...it is rational to reevaluate the validity of said idea.
goobergel 2 years ago
so im expecting you to drop your atheistic beliefs, given this.
unless you are just being idealistically dishonest.. ie, saying this is what should be the case, but when a concept or notion does not benefit you, suddenly the above doesnt apply. in other words, sure, you follow the "evidence" unless it means that you will have to face the justice of a fair and perfectly holy God at the end of your life.. and all that that implies
insaner169 2 years ago
I would love to meet the god responsible for this existence. Though I fear he would have little interest in me.
You can expect whatever you like. My beliefs are not so much atheistic as they are...open. I have just woken up in the universe and really do not know much about it. I see no evidence for a god but then, one may not expect to as such an entity would likely be beyond bothering to dabble in our small corner of reality.
Is this the only reason you believe...fear of judgement?
goobergel 2 years ago
fear is not a reason to believe, i dont believe in the boogie monster not because i am afraid, but rather because my other beliefs conflict with it.
the bible says that God is not just interested but highly involved in ALL of His creation. He gets mad, sad, and glad over the events that go on here.. He cares, its His creation after all.
a terrible reason not to believe in God is because you dont understand or /like/ what is going on in this earth.. the bible says that God doesnt like it eithe
insaner169 2 years ago
I certainly do agree that fear is a terrible reason to believe in anything. Yoda was quite right regarding the eventual outcome of a fear.
If you don't mind me asking then, why do you believe in your god? As you pointed out, the bible describes a god that is highly involved in his creation... yet we cannot seem to observe this god.
I must disagree with you, as I understand you, regarding your last comment. Lack of evidence is a VERY good reason not to believe in something.
goobergel 2 years ago
well i didnt say that lack of evidence isnt a good reason to not believe.. i said that not agreeing with what is going on in the world is not a reason to reject God.
do we agree on the infinite regress thing now?
i think its an excellent question to ask people why they believe. i think the worst thing an atheist can say is that there is no evidence, since clearly the existence of God is something "evident" to at least 98% of the population of earth. that its not sufficient for you is a
insaner169 2 years ago
I don't think the existence of god is "evident" to anyone. Certainly not 98% of people on the planet though I do assume that was just a statistic made up off hand (98% of them are:)) I do not see any evidence for the christian god...however god in general is a very ill defined idea. I agree that asking people why they believe is a good thing...that is why I asked you. You certainly do not need to feel obligate to answer however.
goobergel 2 years ago
ok, i have a few mins before i sleep... for the 98% yeah, it was clearly a made up stat.. i was being pretty generous allowing for a rough estimate of 140million people who do not believe in some form of divinity, im guessing its much much lower than that. evident in the sense of the phrase "it is evident to me that.." in other words, obvious, and clearly to be the case. there has yet to be found any population on earth, no matter how remote, that did not believe in some form of deity
insaner169 2 years ago
the issue is not in believing in a deity, but rather in defining the identity of that deity.. and thats where the non-evident part comes in. but it can very easily be narrowed down to some form of monotheism by applying mere logic and putting some thought into it i wrote a pretty simple explanation of this on my site insaner dot and then com and then goto godproof on left hand side check it out and tell me what you think
insaner169 2 years ago
Thus, failing to find any evidence for a particular idea is a good reason to at least remain highly skeptical of said idea. If, however, observation of the world around us brings forth evidence that contradicts an idea, this is a very good reason to reject the idea.
You never addressed the infinite regress thing...why would you think I would suddenly change my mind? Gesh...this is like talking to my wife! Sometimes I think half the conversation only occurs in her head!
goobergel 2 years ago
different story. and perhaps a valid one, though i cannot acknowledge it as such, since i open my eyes and see everything that is and say "this cant just have come about on its own".. as you said you agree with, right?
the problem i see in atheists is that they have had really bad experiences with religious people (hey, as we all have) but the fact that there are evil people who say they know your dad does not mean your dad doesnt exist
but to answer your question, just seeing all of creation w
insaner169 2 years ago
"but to answer your question, just seeing all of creation"
I think I know where you are coming from. However I must say that I do not see anything in the world that necessarily speaks to the existence of a god--certainly not any particular god.
goobergel 2 years ago
was not enough to tell me /who/ God is.. only that there is a creative entity out there with the aforementioned properties. but the way i know that it is the God of the bible is in surveying the other belief systems.. what the claims are and what the outcome of those claims is.. in the bible, like i said, there are hundreds of claims made about the future.. claims which were fulfilled and are acknowledged by historians and scholars on both sides of the fence.. such as the historical person of
insaner169 2 years ago
"there are hundreds of claims made about the future.. claims which were fulfilled and are acknowledged by historians and scholars on both sides of the fence"
Can you give any examples...I am not aware of any such predictions.
goobergel 2 years ago
if you type "bible prophecies" in google, you will find more than i can list, many with precise dates etc..
also, i tried looking up historians who denied the historicity of Jesus and couldnt find more than a handful, and these, based on what i think we can conclude as mere wishful thinking.
the fact that many claiming messiahship arose in the time testifies to the expectation of a messiah due to the prophecies (daniel gave the exact year).. i guess you also saw zeitgeist.. dont get me started!
insaner169 2 years ago
i dont think anyone who takes that movie at face value can call himself someone who values the truth. a quick search on any of the points made in that movie (in its "christian" section) would see how incredibly inaccurate the claims are.. the boldest off the top of my head: saying that Jesus was born on the 25th of december.. holey wow.. awful scholarship.. and also the stuff claimed about mithra and horus.. honestly.. im sure if you type it up in google you might be embarrassed to see how much
insaner169 2 years ago
garbage you actually took to be true without a second thought. the whole movie i was smacking my head.. i still cant believe people take any of it seriously.
anyways, to go back to the infinite regress.. (i will answer larian here too) nothing can spring into existence of itself.. not even God. this is called self-creation and is a logical impossibility.. ex nihilo nihil fit. you cant create anything if you dont exist, therefore you cant create yourself. if the universe sprang into existence--
insaner169 2 years ago
it must necessarily have been caused outside of itself.. ie, there must be a cause to the universe. and that cause must be outside of time and outside of the bounds of space too, otherwise it would be begging the question (ie, pushing the question one step further back but not closer to the answer) this cause must be an intelligent/creative cause with the ability to create.. this implies personality (person-ness) and this is how we define God.. infinite, eternal, with the ability to create
insaner169 2 years ago
if God were finite, or temporal, that means He necessarily would have a beginning, and that disqualifies Him as God... because if He had a beginning, either He self created (impossible) or He Himself was created by someone else (which would be begging the question.. and whoever created Him would therefore be God.. etc)
im still not sure if we agree on the infinite regress
insaner169 2 years ago
Jesus. in whom, as i said, 360+ prophecies were fulfilled, 190 of which cannot be fulfilled by anyone else, ever. the historical person of Jesus is not denied by any serious scholar, and even jews acknowledge He existed, the only difference is they do not acknowledge Him as messiah, given His claims of deity (and even this was prophesied, that the messiah promised to the jews would be rejected by His own people and that God would raise for Himself a gentile nation of believers, which only occurs
insaner169 2 years ago
The historical person of Jesus is most certainly denied quite vehemently by a large percentage of historians. This claim is just categorically false. There actually were a lot of "messiahs" during the time of christ. Many historians believe the jesus of the new testament is just a compilation of these men's stories. I find this suspect myself. I think the man, Jesus, probably existed. However it does seem evident that many of the stories were reattributed to him from earlier events.
goobergel 2 years ago
with Jesus.. nobody else can ever fulfill that prophecy again. interestingly demonstrating how He indeed IS the messiah.
that is just the objective aspect of it, there is also the personal aspect of it. you see, i wasnt a christian till the age of 19.. i mightve been exposed to christian teachings, the bible etc.. but it wasnt until i applied the promises of the bible to my own life that there was ever any difference of any sort. Jesus says we must repent and believe, just as He said to lazarus
insaner169 2 years ago
"get up and walk".. when lazarus was dead.. the point is that it was an impossible command to fulfill for a dead person.. UNLESS he was brought to life.. and thats the point. Jesus commanded it and it occurred, the same as how He commands us to repent, to turn away from our sins, but as people who are dead in their sins, this is impossible, unless it is by Jesus that we are brought to life in order to fulfill it. and thats what happened in my life. i heard the command to repent and responded
insaner169 2 years ago
but because i had been brought back to life. but you know how people say they have "spiritual" experiences all the time.. and it really means nothing.. well, for me, i started seeing inexplicable things occurring in my life within a week of this event.. things outside of my control that reaffirmed what the bible promised time and time again.
the same way that anyone would be irrational to claim they have no father, despite never having physically met him, im at the same point with my God
insaner169 2 years ago
What kind of things?
goobergel 2 years ago
sorry, some of my posts are cut abruptly because of the character count.. assume they follow each other..
i really have to continue this on monday, since i have something really urgent to do that i have sort of not done yet.. if i finish early i will continue answering your posts today.. but keep answering i will get back to your questions as soon as i can
insaner169 2 years ago
Have a great night! It was nice talking with you. My Horus be with you:)
goobergel 2 years ago
I do not believe the universe sprang into existence without a cause. I am of the belief that the "universe" has always existed in some form. And again, I would love to acknowledge a god...I am very open to evidence regarding the existence of such an entity and would find this prospect fascinating. Stop asserting that I believe that which I do not. It if very offensive. And again I ask you to please demonstrate why an infinite regress in causality is not possible.
goobergel 2 years ago
we cannot "add" events into the past.. as the past is passed. if an infinite regress were possible, we would never reach "now", because it would just be a constant string of events going on, and "now" would just be the end of that string.. but then it wouldnt be infinite, it would be finite.. there would be an end.. and that end would be "now".
if we cannot get past this basic point i cannot start providing any sort of evidence for you as we are not even operating by the same set of rules
insaner169 2 years ago
This is the "naked assertion" fallacy. You have not shown why it is impossible for the Universe to begin existing without cause.
Larian1975 2 years ago
Hey Larian...remember me? I thought so. and YES...God does answer Prayer. In my church alone I have seen the sick healed, LIVES TRANSFORMED , drug addicts forgiven and broken marriages healed. These MIRACLES only happen because the recipients have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the God who gave you life, sustains you every day and then you turn and mock Him. Those who distance themselves from God in this life will know what REAL DISTANCE is in the next.
bornagain001 2 years ago
I have seen all those things happen without prayer or divine intervention too.
Larian1975 2 years ago
Have you? Please tell me about the last TRANSFORMED LIFE you witnessed and what caused them to dramatically change?
bornagain001 2 years ago
They were into meth really bad and it was killing them. It was intervention by friends and family that got them off drugs and hard work that got them back on their feet.
Larian1975 2 years ago
NO. I'm not talking about someone who has kicked a drug habit..because that is not a transformation. I am talking about someone who kicked the drug habit and SURRENDERED their old life to Christ. The transformation which is so radical , you and all his friends make fun of him behind his back. The guy that was really bad at one time but now spends time studying God's Word and seeking God's direction in his life. THAT...my friend is an answer to someone's PRAYERS.
bornagain001 2 years ago
This is called begging the question, and it's a logical fallacy. You aren't willing to take any definition of a "transformed life" that does not include your particular brand of superstition.
And no, we do not make fun of them behind their back. We're proud of them. This might be hard for you to understand. Then again I've never seen you attempt to understand anything.
As for prayers, before you attempt to claim your Jesus had anything to do with this, you should know they're pagan.
Larian1975 2 years ago
and like i said, if there was an infinite number of events leading to now, we would never reach now. its impossible. therefore the universe had a beginning, just as time requires that first event to occur. and it must therefore have been caused externally, as nothing is capable of creating itself, not even God. and this external cause MUST be eternal (not bound by time) infinite (not bound by space) intelligent and capable of creating (otherwise nothing would exist)
ie, the definition of God
insaner169 2 years ago
Hello Insaner169
Hate to jump in the middle of a conversation like this, but I just want to point out that you are in error about your notion of infinity. Mathematically, there have been an infinitely divisible number of events since the time I posted this and the time you read it.
Secondly, the infinite regress which you say is impossible would have to apply to any creator of the Universe, would it not? Occam's razor says we cut the creator part out.
Here's to ya' Goob.
Larian1975 2 years ago
hi larian, sadly i think you misunderstand the concept of infinite divisibility.. time is finite, the distance between two numbers is finite.. can be measured. that the space between them can be "divided infinitely" is not a true infinity.. the distance does not expand as you keep dividing, the distance remains the same, remains finite. and no, there were not an infinite amount of events between the two, it was still finite. no matter how small you make the distance between any two events--
insaner169 2 years ago
they are still distinct, finite events, and the distance between the two is what we call "time".
occams razor says you must remove all unnecessary premises, whereas the cause for an event is a necessary premise. removing God would be a violation of occams razor
insaner169 2 years ago
I misunderstand? Really now? I trust you will forgive me for finding that funny.
I can only tell you that here with regard to time and infinity you tread upon my professional expertise, and you are wrong.
As to necessary premises, Occam's razor applies. If God is the first cause of the Universe, then you are forced to admit that he himself had a cause. Doubtless you would argue that God is the uncaused cause, which is a logical fallacy. Specifically it is "Argument for Special Treatment."
Larian1975 2 years ago
God cannot have had a cause, if so, He would have had a beginning, and hence by definition that would make Him finite and temporal, which would then exclude Him from being the definition of God.. and whatever entity responsible for His existence, that would be defined as "God".. like i said, begging the question.
removing the uncaused cause would violate occams razor, as you are removing a necessary entity, which occams razor does not allow
insaner169 2 years ago
Who is to say it wasn't the Universe which had no cause? This is by far the simplest explanation of the current state of affairs, and if true, could exist without a creator god. The god of Abraham is now an "entity which is multiplied beyond necessity" - the definition of Occam's razor. This is the simplest premise from which to begin. The postulation of an infinitely complex immortal creator merely confuses the issue.
Larian1975 2 years ago
the universe cant have had no cause since the universe is bound by space and time.. its made up of stuff and things happen in it. there must necessarily have been a first event.
also, why must God be infinitely complex? and wouldnt this statement, if you apply it to God, therefore also apply to your universe?
dont forget that occams razor is a principle, its not a law.
insaner169 2 years ago
Yes, it is possible for the Universe to be infinitely complex depending on its size. If the Universe is infinite in size, then it follows that it is also infinite in complexity.
Further, since nothing can design a thing more complex than itself, (a maxim) God would have to be more complex than the Universe he designed.
As to the cause of the Universe, nobody knows. Not me, not you, not anybody else. But for everything we *do* know, God doesn't seem to fit in anywhere other than a fantasy.
Larian1975 2 years ago
but do you see what you are doing? you are stating the universe can be infinitely complex, whereas God cannot. this is getting us closer to the source of your atheism.
you state that nothing can design a thing more complex than itself, i dont think this can be proven. it doesnt make sense to me at all unless we define what complexity means.
and your third part is where you shed final light on the source of your atheism, which is what i had pointed out 3months ago... you refuse to acknowledge
insaner169 2 years ago
You are putting words in my mouth. It was *you* sir, who asked why God must be infinitely complex, and I quote:
"also, why must God be infinitely complex?"
This is dirty and underhanded.
Also, you do not appear to understand the definition of an axiom (Which I mistakenly called a maxim - I was tired).
Regarding honest scholarship, you take quite a few liberties with knowledge of my education and background. You insinuate that I have decided to cast off gods out-of-hand because (more)
Larian1975 2 years ago
yes, i asked why God must be infinitely complex, you stated then that the reason was because He had to be more complex than the universe, stating that this was an axiom (the rules of the game, with no need to be proven) but its not an agreed upon one. i dont see why this must be.
i also dont see why you accuse me of being dirty and underhanded. if you misunderstood me, (or i you) thats one thing, but dont accuse me. this is a civil discussion, lets both be reasonable.
you keep saying that i
insaner169 2 years ago
take liberties with knowledge of your education, i have no knowledge of your education, all i know is based on what you write here.. i made an educated guess/conclusion based on that, but im not assuming this out of just assumption.
insaner169 2 years ago
I was essentially bored one day. This is as foolish as it is wrong. If I were so inclined, (and had more than 500 characters) I could explain to you in detail why I reject the notion of gods. Unfortunately, experience has taught me that you would likely be unwilling to hear the answer.
Therefore, you may go on believing whatever you want about me. However this "debate" is nearing its end. Note how we have gone from discussing God ...to ad hominem aganst me and dissecting my life.
Foul.
Larian1975 2 years ago
not sure where you think i have offended you, but let me assure you, that wasnt my intent. and yes, i actually would be interested in knowing why you reject God, this is the kind of thing i find interesting.. but i also understand its really personal and intimate and understand if you do not want to share. to be honest, i have yet to encounter a person who labels themselves an atheist who was not in some way egregiously wronged by someone who labeled themselves a believer,or life in general
insaner169 2 years ago
"i actually would be interested in knowing why you reject God, this is the kind of thing i find interesting."
People reject God because of the particular SIN which consumes them. It may be pornography, an immoral sexual relationship, alcohol, addiction to gambling, the sin of PRIDE, SELFISHNESS, BITTERNESS etc. We are all born as atheists. None of us know God when we are born but those who seek Him...God has promised to reveal Himself.
bornagain001 2 years ago
except:
romans3:10 As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.
insaner169 2 years ago
@insaner169 CORRECT.... JOHN 1:12
bornagain001 2 years ago
@insaner169 - Thats just fixing the loop holes they left....
TheChemicMedic 1 year ago
@insaner169 That's the thing though, the universe can be infinitely complex without a static beginning or ending. You stated earlier that it has to have a beginning because it is bound by space and time which is a contradiction in its own. For one, time is a man made creation; second, space is matter... which I don't see why it binds the universe to a beggining.
As for the god thing, its used as a way to cheat death as well as answer questions that seem to immense for the human mind to grasp.
TheChemicMedic 1 year ago
any such evidence that can show that there is a creator God, you discard as fantasy. this is not true, honest, scholarship.
you had some bad experiences with people who claimed to be of faith in God, and you associated the two together. therefore, the easiest way to deal with it is to simply say "therefore, there is no God". its an easy way to cope, but its not a truthful one. if you then deny this, think about how many times you have made reference to the "bad things theists do", crusades etc
insaner169 2 years ago
if there is an infinite number of events leading to now, then we will never reach "now", by definition..
insaner169 2 years ago
This is just categorically false. By this same reasoning no atom would ever emit a photon and no finite amount of time would ever pass nor would anything ever transverse a finite distance. We exist "NOW" by definition. This is the point from which we are currently observing the universe. We have fare to feeble an understanding of the nature of time to make any more detailed assertions
goobergel 2 years ago
no, on the contrary. ONLY a finite of time could lead to "now", and NOT an infinite amount. thats why an infinite regress is impossible
insaner169 2 years ago
So taken to its logical conclusion, you must conclude that there is no such thing as eternity. When we die and go to heaven, we will only get to spend a short time there before... what? Time comes to an end? Then what do we do? By all your prior arguments, we must then exist either outside of space and time, experiencing all of eternity in one single, boring moment, or we simply must cease to exist. By default, these amount to the same thing. There can be no more experience.
Larian1975 2 years ago
no, time can go on indefinitely, just not into the past.. the future can be infinite.. but at any point, even within that infinite continuum, the past must be finite.
its only the infinite regress that is impossible, because you cannot "add" events to the past, only to the present/future..
insaner169 2 years ago
That's a bold assertion. How can you know this? Prove it to me.
Larian1975 2 years ago
which part?
insaner169 2 years ago
Prove to me that the future can be infinite, yet the past must be finite. Thus far you have only provided this as a naked assertion.
Larian1975 2 years ago
You keep claiming I am making the "argument from ignorance" fallacy, and I wish you'd stop doing it. I am not saying "I don't understand how God can exist, therefore he doesn't." I am saying that God, as Christianity has defined him, is logically impossible and plainly invented. I am saying that this god is self-contradictory, and I am saying that there is no evidence for his being real, and quite a bit to suggest that he's not.
Larian1975 2 years ago
and then remove all the gods who in their own mythology are not creators (ie, pretty much all greek gods other than chronos or thesis, depends on which tradition you follow).. a god must be self-existent, or else he isnt really a god.
that leaves us slim-pickins, basically the monotheistic gods.. of which we have less than you can count on one hand. if we then select only gods that made claims of the future that DID come true, we are left with only a single one. guess which one.
insaner169 2 years ago
I am trying to guess but I can't...I am not aware of ANY god who has made any claims whatsoever with regards to the future...and certainly non that have come true. Please enlighten me!
goobergel 2 years ago
from around 2000 years to about 400 years before Christ was born, there were hundreds of predictions made, also called prophecies. 360+ were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ alone (including the exact date He appears).. with 190 of which that cannot be fulfilled by another person in history, ever. there are many many other prophecies, including the destruction of the temple, and even the recent forming of the state of israel.. and these are just to name a few of the fulfilled prophecies
insaner169 2 years ago
yet you cannot point toward any documentation that any of these events actually took place.....
goobergel 2 years ago
im also not sure how you conclude that the God of the bible is logically impossible, and even contradictory. can you elaborate?
insaner169 2 years ago
hey, ill answer this video here, since i just saw it.
yeah! ive had several prayers answered, some within seconds if i remember correctly. its why i live in the country i live in, and am married to the woman i married, and etc.. im not the only one, i know lots of people who have had also, several prayers answered.
in regards to prayers getting answered, look up mark driscolls video on prayer "what have you stopped praying about"..
insaner169 2 years ago
This was funny! Great Job!
twoonbiscayne 2 years ago
How do you black out the background so nicely....?
goobergel 2 years ago
I did it by astute choice of lighting and digital enhancement of the signal contrast and color balance. It took some work to get straight.
Larian1975 2 years ago
grace...I said it...whacha gonna do about. OUCH!...FUCk....why!...what did I ever...okay...don't answer that...
goobergel 2 years ago
You never disappoint me goobergel.
Larian1975 2 years ago
I have a personal relationship with christ...we are uber tight....He holds my penis when I pee...
goobergel 2 years ago
Yes...God has asked me to assrape you...I have declined....
goobergel 2 years ago