John 6:28 They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”
Titus 3:4 But—“When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love, HE SAVED US, NOT BECAUSE OF THE RIGHTEOUS THINGS WE HAD DONE, but because of his mercy
CHAPTER 32 -- WE ARE JUSTIFIED NOT BY OUR OWN WORKS, BUT BY FAITH.
And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that FAITH through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Another point man is depraved to the point of being death to the things of the spirit, he can percieve but can't recieve, but man is not a rock bottom... Matthew 24:12 Lawlessness will increase in the end times which indicates we are not "totally depraved" we cannot accept Jesus unless He draws us John 12:32 He draws all men to Himself... 1 Tim 4:10 Savior of ALL men. 1 John 2:2 Propitiation for the WHOLE WORLD
@IamNOTlikeUnymore All that total depravity means is that EVERY PART OF US IS CORRUPTED not that we're as sinful as we could be. In fact, we're far from as sinful as we could because God keeps us restrained, so to speak or else civilization would be impossible. It does NOT mean that we're as sinful as we could be, or that we don't know right from wrong.
[John 3:36 36]"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not _OBEY_ the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." [Hebrews 5:9] And having been made perfect, He became to all those who _OBEY_ Him the source of eternal salvation. CONDITIONED UPON OBEDIENCE
@innocenceagain the elect haha only to them, calvinist stumble over the same thing Peter did or im pretty sure it was peter, remember He thought salvation was only to the jews, u guys do the same thing except say its only to the "elect" well to comfort you, you have absolutly no idea if u r elect or not, perhaps God decided He doesnt really like, maybe ur just "decieved into enlightenment" like in Hebrews 6:4-6
@IamNOTlikeUnymore we're stumbling because we believe only those saved by faith alone will be saved? We're only excluding the ones who of course go to hell, and the Bible never teaches universalism. actually, you can know you're elect. we wouldn't be told to make our calling and election sure if we couldn't know. that's an entire other discussion though. But, if I'm not elect, then I'm only going to receive the punishment I deserve, which of course is scary, but I can't protest.
there isn't one without the other, of course, but justification is by FAITH ALONE and saving faith is a faith that produces works (sanctification), but it is not by the works that we are saved but rather we continue to do works becase we ARE saved.
Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 5:1: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
There's a lot of concepts taught explicitly in Scripture without the terms we'd use.
Rom. 3:28--justified by FAITH and NOT works. If we are NOT justified by works, but rather by faith, then it's faith apart from works.
Justification is by faith, and works have no part. Sanctification is where works come in...without works, you have a dead faith. Dead faith is not saving faith. However, our works can do nothing to save us.
ah, yes. I knew it, I knew it, I KNEW IT! :p lol I suppose it's the result of a few months of constant discussion. LOL
It's faith alone though: otherwise it's our doings, not Gods...and it's clear that you are not justified by works. The only way to read the Scripture is to read it straight-forward when it says faith, but not works.
hahaha. You probably already know what I'm about to type. Aw, heck. Why don't I just hand over my account to you, let you type my responses for me, and we'll see how good you are at playing devil's advocate. :P Just kidding! lol
Again: demons don't have saving faith, nor do false prophets. There's a faith that saves, but saving faith isn't dead. Faith is more than intellectual assent.
I have some questions because i was introduced to calvinism a couple weeks ago, mainly perserverance of the saints, but from my biblical knowledge before calvinism, it would appear to be a huge contradictory of scriptures, ive studied into it more since then of course and i still see it as unbiblical . . . For example 1 Timothy 4:1
Are you saying that perseverance of the saints is unbiblical and qualifies as a doctrine of devils as per 1 Timothy 4:1?
Under careful biblical examination, Calvinism holds up. I thought Calvinism was unbiblical upon my first introduction of it, but after careful examination it was the only way to have the Scriptures NOT contradict, I was just an Arminian at the time and didn't know it. lol
@innocenceagain No hahaha not saying its a doctrine og devils lol, the part in the verse where " the Spirit expicitly says that in latter times some wil fall away from the faith, paying attention to decietful spirits and doctrines of demons. . . so it appears to be saying people who are saved can e decieved and fall away, or thts wat i get out of it. . . and theres alot of verses like it, that seem to teach the same concept . .
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Oooo...lol, sorry! well, Matthew 24:24 says "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, IF POSSIBLE, even the elect." My view on that is the ones that fall away are of those Christ NEVER knew.
Well first all Elect means is those who God foresaw would accept Him and perservere to the end, those who would be saved in the end, according to His foreknowledge. ( 1 peter 1-2 is a perfect example ) So based off that, theres still room for 1. people who truly believed but get caught up in sin or completely renounced God. 2. those who were never really saved... now since the bible uses fall away from the faith for example, how can u fall away from something you were never in ?
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Sorry I've been slow to answer, I've been a bit busy...lol Anyways, it almost sounds like you're arguing for predestination based on foreknowledge? Arminian view of predestination? I used that view once to avoid Calvinism actually...LOL.
@innocenceagain I was raised believing the Calvinist view of predestination and with eternal security, but i wasnt familiar with Calvinism itself or the 5 points but i would have probably agreed with all the points except Limited atonement.. I havnt really studied Arminianism to much so i dont know exactly wat they believe. . .
@IamNOTlikeUnymore I was raised more Arminian than Calvinist, going to mostly non-Calvinistic Baptist churches (even free will Baptist. lol) and Nazarene when I was little. I didn't realize Calvinism existed until I was around 13. Limited atonement is just as important as the other 4 points simply because if Jesus had died for ALL then ALL would be saved, otherwise Jesus died for the people in hell.
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Maybe just do a quick google search on the differences between Arminians and Calvinists? I was raised more Arminian...basically: arminians believe Christ died for all and it's man's choice (freewill) to believe or reject Him.
@innocenceagain As far as Unconditional Election goes If u read Acts 10:34 and Romans 2:11 it establishes the fact that God doesnt show partiality, and if u think about it, no matter how "merciful" of Him it was to go out of His way to save a group "the elect" from hell by His grace and sovereign will alone He would be showing partiality and He is not a partial.
@IamNOTlikeUnymore If you throw election out of the picture, well then you end up with a God that tries to save but often fails. Jesus saves, He doesn't just try to save. This doesn't mean that God is partial.
@innocenceagain No not at all u end up with a more loving God, who gives mercy to all, not just some, who gives grace to all not just some, and who is completely just and awesome. He doesnt fail at all it takes so much more sovereignty to work with free will than predestination because in the end He will be glorified and He will be victorious, Calvinism takes away from His sovereignty and His nature. Give me one good reason why election isnt partial?
@IamNOTlikeUnymore No you end up with a God who SAVES, not a God who often fails to save. As for the rest of that, God saves according to His will. I don't have time for a long answer, but read Romans 9.
Sorry, I've got to put this discussion with you on hold, I don't mean to but I have to.
I have been sick, and in 2 days I've got to have a oral surgery on my infected gum to remove a tooth fragment and worse: my grandmother was just diagnosed with lung cancer that may have already spread and an intestinal blockage and is having surgery in the morning. Depending on how that goes, I'm unsure as to how often I will be on youtube, but if anything I'm putting all discussions on hold until I can actually answer people. Sorry, but I hope you understand....
@innocenceagain Romans 9 is based of conditions, and nations as well, Read Jeremiah 18:4-10 and Isaiah 65:1-2,11-14, and 66:4 shows how its all based off of abiding, it shows how God is merciful and how salvation is conditional. feel better
@innocenceagain Its not about salvation haha and if u read Jeremiah 18:1-10 it shows how the molding is conditional upon our choices, He says salvation is to both the jew and the gentile anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord, and countless times, for all who believe, 1 Peter 1:1-2 elect according to foreknowledge it is about a straight forward as u can get
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Salvation IS only for those who believe but those who do not believe are in unbelief because they are not of the sheep (John 10:26). All who believe and are saved are of the elect.
Election is based only on the will of God and the basis of our election is not based on anything we've done or are going to do but rather it is based ONLY on the will of God for His own pleasure. Ephesians 1:5 states that we were predestined in accordance with His will for His pleasure.
For instance, Romans 9:11-13--Jacob and Esau--election wasn't based on the twins works but was predestined in order that God's purpose in election would stand and NOT by the (future) works of either of the twins. It's all dependent on God's mercy and not our works, because Romans 9:15-16 is clear that He has mercy on whom He will have mercy...it doesn't say He has mercy on those whom by their own works merit His mercy.
@IamNOTlikeUnymore As for 1 Peter 1:1-2 (and similar verses, such as Romans 8:29), this isn't meaning that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of the future by looking in advace to see who will believe the gospel and then predestinatng them according to their own choices...logically, your view isn't even possible because if it were left to OUR choice we're ALL going to chose sin and death over righteousness and life because ...{cont.}
if it were left to OUR choice we're ALL going to chose sin and death over righteousness and life because we are all bound to our totally dead and depraved nature and bound to hell.
We can't use our free will to make a choice that our nature does not allow us to make, because we can only chose according to our natures--in the case of humans, that is to chose darkness over life. I do believe we have 'free will' in that we make choices. But our wills are not 'free', we are in bondage to sin.
@IamNOTlikeUnymore God chose to adopt His own before His own even were in existance..the elect's relationship with God existed before the elect themseleves existed. We follow God because He loves us, chose us, and elected us...not because we loved him first.
God has mercy on whom He will have mercy and the rest He leaves to their sin. And interestingly, almost as if it was EXPECTED we'd argue against the 'fairness of this' we come to "You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?. "
@IamNOTlikeUnymore So basically, if we believe it is because we are of the sheep. God doesn't base His decrees on His knowledge of the future...
I'm not saying God doesn't save those who seek Him or that He turns people away....and even IF you are right and God used foreknowledge to see who would be of the elect--the faith that God is foreseeing is still, in fact the faith which God Himself grants to us...
So, granted, perhaps God could look into the future and see that He will grant a particular person faith...so I suppose God could use foreknowledge to foresee whether or not it is in His decree to produce faith in someone, because obviously faith is from God because no one can come to Him unless drawn by the Father to do so (John 6:44, John 6:65, Philippians 1:29).
So...hmm...even if foreknowledge is a factor in election, it's still based on God's action and not ours, so your argument doesn't disprove my position. :)
Because ultimately, it's all His work and none of ours no matter how (biblically) you look at it.
The Westminster Confession of Faith; Chapter 3: OF GOD'S ETERNAL DECREE:
"1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation.
Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel."
@innocenceagain 2 Peter 2:1 false prophets denying the Master who BOUGHT them... Jesus died for the false prophets did u know that? 2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.... being called ( irresistable grace as u would put it, and being elected ) doesn't result in 100% salvation, theres things we need to do to ensure our election to stand.
Whoa, wow. Jesus died for the false prophets...really now? Do false prophets go to heaven? No...I'm pretty sure they are of the ones that Jesus will say "I never you" of. This is a very dangerous statement to make, because Jesus didn't die for anyone in hell! That is a ridiculous assumption because Jesus didn't spill a drop of blood in vain, and what is the point in Jesus paying the penalty only to require it to be paid of those He died for in hell?
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Now you're arguing for synergy--something not taught in sola scriptura.. Things we need to do to make our election stand? God saves us by faith alone, and there is nothing we can add to keep or lose our salvation. Examining your relationship with God is a completely different thing than trying to keep your Salvation.
@innocenceagain Ya Ephesians 1:5 isnt talking about individual people being elected, i dont even kinda get how someone can get individual unconditional election out of that... more like predestining, hmm lets try a whole race, like possibly the Gentiles and Jews? ya read Ephesians 3:3 through however much more verses it takes to get tht and if u dont ever get it, ur closed off to who God really is and His nature...
@IamNOTlikeUnymore I can't understand why you think God only elects nations and not individuals. That makes absolutely no sense. Israel is God's chosen nation, however God also extends mercy to His chosen who are Gentile as well. Elect Jews and Elect Gentiles. The Bible says He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Everything works out according to God's decrees and will, even the wicked for the day of destruction. Faith is the gift of God...who has faith? Nations, or individuals?
@innocenceagain do u even know where in the Old testament it talks about having mercy on whom He will? u should look at its original context, ill give u a hint, its in Exodus
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Oh, and I'm closed off to who God is and I don't ever get it?
Actually, I could reverse that statement. You're the one who doesn't seem to be 'getting it'. I'm not closed off to who God really is. God is sovereign, we are not. I don't think anyone truely understands all the ways of God. However, I was more 'closed off' to the nature of God back before I came to my current view of Him. So, interesting you'd say that...lol
@innocenceagain, funny u used to be an arminian, and i used to be a calvinist, what a coincidence, God is sovereign thats a fact, and it takes way more sovereignty away from God, to believe in calvinism and u dont even see it. Working all things according to ur will based off of foreknowledge seems more sovereingn than predestining everything according to His will... think bout it.
@IamNOTlikeUnymore At one point you were raised with the Calvinist view of predestination and eternal security but were not familiar with even the 5 points of Calvinism (even if you would have agreed with it)....after you first said you were just recently introduced to Calvinism...so while you may have held to a few Calvinistic patterns of thought, I'm not sure you'd have been considered a Calvinist. :p no offense. I used to go to Nazerine and Free Will Baptist churches and hate Calvinism...
@innocenceagain U didnt flippantly become a calvinist? it's not very hard to see when u open ur eyes that all 5 points are flawed, and LIMITED ATONEMENT is the most insulting point there is to God and His nature. Calvinism insults God, therefore it insults me
@IamNOTlikeUnymore lol...I had my eyes closed at first and couldn't' see the truth of Calvinism...or rather, the Bible. I was so hostile to Calvinsim that I owed the person who introduced me to it a major apology for the way I attacked him for telling the truth. Calvinism doesn't insult God, Arminianism exalts man and thus is insulting to me.
@innocenceagain im not an arminian first i just agree with them more, second in no way is man exalted, God gets all the glory and praise if someone accepts His gift, thats illogical to say someone gets exalted for accepting an undeserved gift
@innocenceagain 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
read all the verses in this chapter up to 10 really study verse 9 in particular
@innocenceagain and again However u put unconditional election, no matter how nice u make God sound, it makes Him partial, you see if God decides to pick you and no me just because He can, thats called partiality and now ur saying the bible contradicts itself, which isnt smart.
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Huh? Of course the Bible doesnt' contradict itself... No matter how you word it, you're putting man in control and God at our command.
Look, if you'd rather God left it up to us, then okay...however, again: we're all going to hell then.
@innocenceagain no calvinism contradicts the bible, esp limited atonement and Unconditional Election, and Irresistable rape, and Perseverance of the saints, i dont say total depravity because its partially right.... Not at all putting God at our command.
@innocenceagain Not at all the analogy works perfectly fine considering nowhere in the bible does it teach this, but anyways the "elect" person doesnt want to be saved at all, the irresistable grace, changes there heart and spiritual conditions when they are dead in there sins, and u and i can both agree someone who is spiritually dead does not want to be saved, so its spiritual rape.....
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Man is spiritually DEAD. Not sick, DEAD. Our wills are not free because they are in bondage to sin...thus our free wills are not 'free'. Since we're spiritually DEAD we can't decide to 'resurrect' ourselves. Also, natural man CANNOT understand the Gospel due to lack of spiritual discernment and "preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness"....
we cannot in any way contribute to our salvation anymore than Lazarus contributed to his physical reserrection. The Bible clearly teaches that we must be regenerate in order to belive...if we can on our own decide to belive without first being regenerated, then your order of regeneration after faith makes NO SENSE because if man is able to chose to believe to begin with, then he can, on his own decide to continue to believe on their own.
There's no purpose in it if the Holy Spirit regenerates us AFTER belief....we are regenerated in order to enable us to believe. If faith is possible without regeneration, then all of salvation: sanctification and glorification also are. If you say that men can begin the process of Salvation on their own, then why can they not finish what they began? The bible says it is GOD who began the good work in us, and not ourselves.
God does begin the work but at the same time it is very evident that He does this for everyone. John 16:8 the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. Conviction is what leads us to repentance.God gives everyone conviction and everyone the ability to repent. Acts 5:31 is repentance granted to Israel/ the jews. Acts 11:18 repentence granted to the Gentiles.through repentance comes the knowledge of the light. i wiuld still like an example of regeneration b4 belief
We're not good because of our sin...a sinner cannot randomly decide to be righteous (Jer. 13:3). It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to save ourselves...it's all God's work all for God's glory.You're basically arguing that we have merit outside of God...we do not all by our lonesome do ANYTHING (including making a 'choice' for Christ) that God rewards us for Salvation for.
@innocenceagain Physical death and Spiritual death are different in many ways, a spiritually dead man can percieve the things of the Spirit a dead man cannot percieve the things of the living, Lazarus is the worst analogy and i hear it so much its sad.... and after regeneration a man can decide to continue to believe or FALL AWAY the bible teaches falling away in depth and great detail
@IamNOTlikeUnymore no, a spiritually dead man cannot understand the things of God...they are foolish to him.
You're believing in a Jesus who needs your help, and cooperation. Sorry, but Jesus can keep you. Do you think Jesus died so that we would fall away? Nope.
@IamNOTlikeUnymore If you want to argue that God is a spiritual rapist, then you are arguing that God is unjust....
I don't recall reading that Jesus asked Lazarus for permission before he resurrected him...what if it was against the will of Lazarus to come forth from the dead?
@innocenceagain Regeneration happens as the bible says, after we look to Jesus. John 3:14 is a awesome pic of regeneration. Numbers 21:9 they look to the snake then the venom is removed, so it is with the cross, we look to Jesus then we are regenerated.. Ephesians 1:13 it happens after belief again
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Again, to natural man scripture is foolishness and thus we wouldn't even look to the Scriptures unless God had his hand in our doing so...we turn our eyes to the cross because He first loved us...not because we in our own goodness decided to do the right thing and do Jesus the favor of coming to Him.
@innocenceagain No i am not arguing that God is unjust, im telling u the nature of God, how calvinism describes it is UNJUST... The nature of God how the bible describes is absolutely JUSt and Impartial. Again with the Lazarus thing.. resurrecting Lazarus from the dead wasnt even a salvation issue so im not even gunna bother..
@IamNOTlikeUnymore the point still remains: if man is spiritually dead, he is DEAD. A spirtually dead man can raise himself up as well as a physically dead man can.
@innocenceagain Romans 2:15 the law is written on the heart of men...... through that God convicts us to Him, but some reject Him of there own choice not because He didn't hand pick them. Ephesians 1:13 Regeneration is the last thing that takes place, isnt that weird? sealed with the Holy Spirit = regeneration
@IamNOTlikeUnymore yes, but that doesn't mean that we obey that law. Does everyone follow through with their convictions? No. But see, the elect are drawn by irresistible grace...and yes, when we reject God it IS by our own choice. Didn't I already say that our natural choice is to reject God?
Huh? We're sealed and guaranteed Salvation when we believe. Elect are surely going to believe.
@innocenceagain Man written teachings in no way end this because biblically u are wrong. First off i assume you didn't read about the potter in Jeremiah 18 because it shows how the molding is CONDITIONAL. Matthew 11:28 come to me ALL who are weary. Ezekiel 33:11 God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and commands them to turn from There ways. CONDITION and LOVE
reformed {DOT} org/documents / wcf_ with _proofs / fix the link go to CH 3. Verse references. Enjoy.
Yeah, I've read all of Jeremiah, for your information. and i did go look it up. Salvation is conditional on sola fide and no more, and faith is granted to us by God. And yes, but remember that everything works out for the decree of God, even the day of destruction for the wicked...
@innocenceagain Lets say someone is drowning and someone is on a boat, the person on the boat is God, and the person in the water is in desperate need of saving... God throws a rope to the guy and He grabs it and doesnt drown, how does that put God at man's command, God gets all the praise and glory not the guy for simply holding on??? its the same concept and uve probably heard this before
@IamNOTlikeUnymore sinners don't realize they're 'drowning'...and so even though God demands Salvation be preached to all, and gives us all a conscious, we don't respond unless He changes our hearts. Your scenario wouldn't happen because the man would tell God he liked the water. :p God would first have to regenerate the man and show him he was drowning before the man would grab the rope...
@innocenceagain See right here "God would first have to regenerate the man and show him he was drowning before the man would grab the rope" with the analogy u left what the bible says and placed what u think, in its place.....Give me a verse that shows regeneration before belief please =D
@innocenceagain yes um He does have to draw us, but drawing and regenration are 2 different things, He draws all men to Him, so when He does the drawing that is the point where we are able to accept Him, Yes we are made alive in Christ by grace. now if u read ephesians 2:8 For by Grace you have been saved through FAITH... so we are made alive in Christ through grace which is through faith. so faith and grace both came before the Being made alive haha
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Sorry if its unclear how i worded it Grace then faith, then regeneration, thats biblically how it lines up in this verse in ephesians
"The decrees of God are His eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His will, whereby, for His own glory, he hath fore-ordained whatsoever comes to pass."
@innocenceagain where does it say he fore-ordained whatsoever to come to pass in the bible? i can agree He works all things for His glory, but that means is through His sovereignty and foreknowledge not of force..
@innocenceagain See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. Colossians 2:8
@IamNOTlikeUnymore yeah, but I'm not trying to take you captive through philosophy and empty deception through the tradition of men...I'm trying to show you clear scriptural truth, and a MONTH later we're still going around in circles. I'm starting to think the verses about avoiding vain quarrels apply here because so far, this entire discussion is proving to be unprofitable.
@innocenceagain empty deception through tradition of men is a perfect description of calvinism, i dont know a better way to puut it myself personally. its only unprofitable because ur not looking for context, the first verse u gave me for regeneration seemed to prove ur point until, well u read a little more of the context
@IamNOTlikeUnymore tradition of men? there is no tradition of men. It's scripture and scripture alone. I'm not a Calvinist based on what man, or what any man did. I'm not a Calvinist because of John Calvin...I'm Reformed because that is the clear teaching of Scripture. Seeing as how I became a Calvinist through reading no writings of men but only the Bible and trying to argue against that and didn't read the reformers and become edified by it until AFTER I was a convinced Calvinist....
I'm not taking anything out context, in fact in order to come to any other conclusion that that God decrees all things and that God saves us all by Himself is only possible by taking scripture out of context.
@IamNOTlikeUnymore anyways, I've said all I know to say to you...I'm holding on to the truths of God's word, and I pray you will also see them. At this point I think it's best that we agree to disagree, because there is nothing more to say that hasn't been said and ....
also because I really am doing a horrible job of keeping up with this at the moment. Unfortunately, my grandmother was just diagnosed with stage 3 cancer in her lymph nodes, spine and lungs and we're waiting to see if it's spread to her brain before we know if there is any hope of treatments. She is sick....
I'm dealing with that among other things, and this entire thing is time consuming so at the moment I see no further reason to go around in theological circles repeating ourselves...I don't feel as though it would be edifying to continue, unless you have specific questions...
@innocenceagain 2 Peter 3:9 God wishes NONE should perish but that ALL should come to repentence..... it doesnt say that He wishes for the ELect to be saved and the others to burn in Hell. 1 Timothy 2:4 God desires ALL to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth... and NO 1 Peter 1:2 says ELECT let me repeat ELECT according to foreknowledge, FOREKNOWLEDGE NOT predestination
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Yes, but again even the wicked's destruction is under His decree.
Even if it's based on foreknowledge, like I said before: God has to turn our hearts to Him, so if He looks into the future, the only thing He's looking at is whether or not He is going to have mercy on us or not.
@innocenceagain and again with romans 9 its not getting u anywhere it shows how conditional salvation is, if ur familiar with a 66 book bible, Esau never served Jacob thats common sense right there, its nations, and making a choice to accept Jesus is not a WORK...
@IamNOTlikeUnymore btw, I am slow to respond and I'm sorry. I've been kinda sick lately and I have been at doctors and I have to soon have some dental work that will probably not be awesome feeling so I'm not doing all that well with keeping up with comments/discussions. lol
@innocenceagain and i have never found a passage that legitimitely teaches unconditional election incase u have one u would lik to share . . . . and remember Proverbs 27:17 ona my favorite verses
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Predestination--election, is done by God's mercy. Not by us. (Romans 9:15-16). Romans 9:11--it doesn't say that God looked into the future and saw Jacob was good or bad...nor does it say that of Esau. Election is based on God's choice, not on what we will or will not do. So if God looks into the future to see whether or not we 'want' to be elected, that contridicts the fact that He doesn't base it on our works.
@innocenceagain God definitely created faith by all means, but biblically its something anyone can accept and any one can fall away from. Hebrews 6:4-6
@innocenceagain Jacob and Esau, that wsnt a salvation issue, and notice how it says the older will serve the younger. well if u go back to the story Esau never served Jacob, so that parts talking about the nations. He doesnt base it off works, He just knows how everything will play out, because He is all knowing. 9:15- God wants to have mercy on all Romans 11:32. . . He even has mercy on those who deny Him to a certain extent. - Romans 10:20-21.. . and 9:30-32 establishes a choice in faith. . .
@innocenceagain Salvation is not based on works not saying that in the slightest, its based on belief, which is a choice and God knows who will come to Him, and who will reject Him.
Works are NOT automatically the RESULT of salvation. We don't become automatically saintly in all our actions. It is a lifelong struggle in which we must persever till the end if we want to be finally saved.
Matt 10:22 "He who perseveres till the end will be saved".
Note the future tense "will". If you're walking around believing you are finally saved, think again.
St Paul says "I am not conscious of anything against me, BUT I DO NOT THEREBY STAND ACQUITTED; The one who judges me is the Lord. THEREFORE, DO NOT MAKE ANY JUDGEMENT BEFORE THE APPOINTED TIME, until the Lord comes, for he will bring light to what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts...(1Cor 4:4-5)
@pbaylis1 Of course. But faith WILL produce works, of some sort. I'm not saying that we're going to reach instant perfection. There is no such thing as being 'saintly in all our actions' right away. There will always be struggles with sin throughout life.
But if you are really a Christian God will keep you, so you WILL persevere.
What do you make of Paul's statement: "I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not therefore stand acquitted; The one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do no make any judgement before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring light to what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts...(1Cor 4:4-5)
Only God knows the inner motives of a person--inner thoughts, attitudes, motives, etc. are not judge-able by man. Only God is able to praise or condemn since only He knows the intent.
Nothing about loss of eternal security. It's not contradicting the statements that promise us eternal life is eternal.
1Cor 4:4-5 shows that there is an appointed time for judgement to be made as to one's acquittal, and that time is the second coming of Christ. Until that time, Paul is not willing to call himself finally acquitted and saved. Nos, if the apostle Paul himself is not going to claim that he has already passed the final judgement and has been saved, do you think you are better than Paul?
Again: only God is the judge. When Paul said he is not conscious of anything faulty, is he talking of his personal life (about which he said he did the things he did not want to do and did not the things he did want), or his apostleship? God does see more clearly than we, and what we would consider clean is to Him as filthy.
"Papists abuse this passage for the purpose of shaking the assurance of faith, and truly, I confess, that if their doctrine were admitted, we could do nothing but tremble in wretchedness during our whole life. For what tranquillity could our minds enjoy if it were to be determined from our works whether we are well-pleasing to God?
I confess, therefore, that from the main foundation of Papists there follows nothing but continual disquietude for consciences; and, accordingly, we teach that we must have recourse to the free promise of mercy, which is offered to us in Christ, that we may be fully assured that we are accounted righteous by God. "-Calvin's Commentaries
This doesn't help your cause. You're simply showing Luther's inability to deal with the insecurity of a final judgement. Paul mentions this several times, e.g. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Paul deals with it. Luther can't.
By the way, I thought Calvinists were into "Predestination" and are never sure if they are one of the "chosen". How awful is that! I'd rather know that I could rely on the Mercy of God to forgive my daily sins if I confess and repent.
Paul would have been contradicting himself if he was implying our Salvation was to be lost, or something we ourselves must 'keep'.
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."-Philippians 2:12-13
In verse 12 he was telling them he wasn't going to be there with them, but to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. But then into verse 13 Paul assures them that it is GOD that works in them to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure. In other words, because God works in them they WILL accomplish salvation. It's not ourselves! Paul is saying, "you were obedient while I was present, now be obedient when I'm not here anymore."
Paul wasn't going to be present there forever, and thus they were 'on their own', with the Scripture. In other words: Paul's leadership isn't present. They were to work out their salvation but it was God who will WILL it and DO it. Paul was saying for us all to be obedient and to remain fearful of God.
for us all to be obedient and to remain fearful of God. Unsaved people have NO FEAR of God, saved people do. If unsaved people feared God, they would obey. Look throughout the Bible, when God manifested Himself to anyone, how'd they react? With fear and trembling! They held God in reverence and knew God didn't causally pause over sin.
The evidence of Salvation is that we keep the word of God and repent when we fail and don't just causally blow it off. Paul was speaking of Godly fear. To have sinned against the Holy God is a FEARFUL thing. Without His mercy we are an abomination to be cast into hell. But he is faithful and just to forgive!
innocenceagain "Luther? I never once quoted Luther. I quoted Calvin. :p You're just so anti-Luther than I guess you just attributed Calvin to Luther. lol "
Have you read the history of Luther? This was always a problem with him - inability to deal with the insecurity of having to wait for a final judgement. Calvin probably picked up on that.
@pbaylis1 Yes, of course I've read the history of Luther and I've even read some of Luther. Calvin did agree with Luther on many things, obviously.
Luther had the 'inability to wait for a final judgment' regarding SALVATION because Salvation is pre-ordained by God, and Salvation is assured to us that no one can pluck us out of the Father's hand...
So, what if you roll up to the pearly gates only to find that you were predestined for damnation. I think I'm starting to see how that might work. I've often wondered how the heck some of you rebels can be so stubborn in the face of absolute reason. I think this might have something to do with predestination - it's literally impossible for you to take in the truth because somehow you are ordained to live a lie and die that way. Might it be something along those lines?
@pbaylis1 Damnation is all that I deserve, grace is what keeps me from it. I recognize I have no claim to Heaven apart from Christ. If I go to hell, it's what I deserve, but I won't go to hell because of the atonement Christ made. But hypothetically, if I went to hell, I know I deserve it. But Christ atoned for me.
If one goes to hell, yes, it is what one surely deserves.
So, now, effectively what you're saying is that you are NOT certain of your salvation. Whereas before, when I asked you this question, you gave me a resounding yes! and complained that the RCC gives people complete insecurity about their salvation. Well, I feel VERY secure that, if I sin, I can be restored again by repentance. It is God's mercy that I rely on. But, you have NO IDEA how God has predestined you.
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HOW to DEBUNK the CATHOLIC CHURCH on "Sola Fide"
Jesus who is God and apostles taught FAITH ALONE
John 6:28 They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”
Titus 3:4 But—“When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love, HE SAVED US, NOT BECAUSE OF THE RIGHTEOUS THINGS WE HAD DONE, but because of his mercy
abukid 1 day ago
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TO ALL CATHOLIC PARISHIONERS
JUSTIN MARTYR preached FAITH ALONE
CHAPTER 32 -- WE ARE JUSTIFIED NOT BY OUR OWN WORKS, BUT BY FAITH.
And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that FAITH through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
abukid 1 day ago
Another point man is depraved to the point of being death to the things of the spirit, he can percieve but can't recieve, but man is not a rock bottom... Matthew 24:12 Lawlessness will increase in the end times which indicates we are not "totally depraved" we cannot accept Jesus unless He draws us John 12:32 He draws all men to Himself... 1 Tim 4:10 Savior of ALL men. 1 John 2:2 Propitiation for the WHOLE WORLD
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore All that total depravity means is that EVERY PART OF US IS CORRUPTED not that we're as sinful as we could be. In fact, we're far from as sinful as we could because God keeps us restrained, so to speak or else civilization would be impossible. It does NOT mean that we're as sinful as we could be, or that we don't know right from wrong.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore if Jesus died for the whole world, the whole world would be saved. Jesus doesn't try to save, Jesus saves.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
[John 3:36 36]"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not _OBEY_ the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." [Hebrews 5:9] And having been made perfect, He became to all those who _OBEY_ Him the source of eternal salvation. CONDITIONED UPON OBEDIENCE
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore and again, I'm just going to tell you the condition is met ONLY BY THE ELECT.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain the elect haha only to them, calvinist stumble over the same thing Peter did or im pretty sure it was peter, remember He thought salvation was only to the jews, u guys do the same thing except say its only to the "elect" well to comfort you, you have absolutly no idea if u r elect or not, perhaps God decided He doesnt really like, maybe ur just "decieved into enlightenment" like in Hebrews 6:4-6
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore we're stumbling because we believe only those saved by faith alone will be saved? We're only excluding the ones who of course go to hell, and the Bible never teaches universalism. actually, you can know you're elect. we wouldn't be told to make our calling and election sure if we couldn't know. that's an entire other discussion though. But, if I'm not elect, then I'm only going to receive the punishment I deserve, which of course is scary, but I can't protest.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore we don't merit Salvation because of obedience...
justification vs sanctification.
there isn't one without the other, of course, but justification is by FAITH ALONE and saving faith is a faith that produces works (sanctification), but it is not by the works that we are saved but rather we continue to do works becase we ARE saved.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Praise the Lord. I enjoyed this video. Good to see it has started some discussion.
Blessings in Christ alone.
James.
jamesglory1 1 year ago
@jamesglory1 Thank you James. :) I'm glad you enjoyed it. God bless you! :)
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Nowhere in the Bible does it claim that we are saved by faith alone.
That is a Protestant fable.
AegyptusAfricanus 1 year ago
Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 5:1: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Where in those passages does it say "faith alone?"
AegyptusAfricanus 1 year ago
There's a lot of concepts taught explicitly in Scripture without the terms we'd use.
Rom. 3:28--justified by FAITH and NOT works. If we are NOT justified by works, but rather by faith, then it's faith apart from works.
Justification is by faith, and works have no part. Sanctification is where works come in...without works, you have a dead faith. Dead faith is not saving faith. However, our works can do nothing to save us.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
I agree that faith alone isn't sufficient for salvation.
Again that was expected from me Eden ^^
lapkine77 1 year ago
ah, yes. I knew it, I knew it, I KNEW IT! :p lol I suppose it's the result of a few months of constant discussion. LOL
It's faith alone though: otherwise it's our doings, not Gods...and it's clear that you are not justified by works. The only way to read the Scripture is to read it straight-forward when it says faith, but not works.
...but you expected that from me, Lapkine.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Indeed :)
But that would give the question of demons, false prophets and such.
Ugh I should shut my big fat mouth. Plus, we already talked about this...OnO
lapkine77 1 year ago
@lapkine77 :)
hahaha. You probably already know what I'm about to type. Aw, heck. Why don't I just hand over my account to you, let you type my responses for me, and we'll see how good you are at playing devil's advocate. :P Just kidding! lol
Again: demons don't have saving faith, nor do false prophets. There's a faith that saves, but saving faith isn't dead. Faith is more than intellectual assent.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
...but that will soon take us back to the justification vs. sanctification discussion, that I already did a vid on ! LOL
innocenceagain 1 year ago
I have some questions because i was introduced to calvinism a couple weeks ago, mainly perserverance of the saints, but from my biblical knowledge before calvinism, it would appear to be a huge contradictory of scriptures, ive studied into it more since then of course and i still see it as unbiblical . . . For example 1 Timothy 4:1
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore I'm sorry, but I don't understand.
What are your questions? lol
Are you saying that perseverance of the saints is unbiblical and qualifies as a doctrine of devils as per 1 Timothy 4:1?
Under careful biblical examination, Calvinism holds up. I thought Calvinism was unbiblical upon my first introduction of it, but after careful examination it was the only way to have the Scriptures NOT contradict, I was just an Arminian at the time and didn't know it. lol
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain No hahaha not saying its a doctrine og devils lol, the part in the verse where " the Spirit expicitly says that in latter times some wil fall away from the faith, paying attention to decietful spirits and doctrines of demons. . . so it appears to be saying people who are saved can e decieved and fall away, or thts wat i get out of it. . . and theres alot of verses like it, that seem to teach the same concept . .
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Oooo...lol, sorry! well, Matthew 24:24 says "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, IF POSSIBLE, even the elect." My view on that is the ones that fall away are of those Christ NEVER knew.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Well first all Elect means is those who God foresaw would accept Him and perservere to the end, those who would be saved in the end, according to His foreknowledge. ( 1 peter 1-2 is a perfect example ) So based off that, theres still room for 1. people who truly believed but get caught up in sin or completely renounced God. 2. those who were never really saved... now since the bible uses fall away from the faith for example, how can u fall away from something you were never in ?
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Sorry I've been slow to answer, I've been a bit busy...lol Anyways, it almost sounds like you're arguing for predestination based on foreknowledge? Arminian view of predestination? I used that view once to avoid Calvinism actually...LOL.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain I was raised believing the Calvinist view of predestination and with eternal security, but i wasnt familiar with Calvinism itself or the 5 points but i would have probably agreed with all the points except Limited atonement.. I havnt really studied Arminianism to much so i dont know exactly wat they believe. . .
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore I was raised more Arminian than Calvinist, going to mostly non-Calvinistic Baptist churches (even free will Baptist. lol) and Nazarene when I was little. I didn't realize Calvinism existed until I was around 13. Limited atonement is just as important as the other 4 points simply because if Jesus had died for ALL then ALL would be saved, otherwise Jesus died for the people in hell.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Maybe just do a quick google search on the differences between Arminians and Calvinists? I was raised more Arminian...basically: arminians believe Christ died for all and it's man's choice (freewill) to believe or reject Him.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain As far as Unconditional Election goes If u read Acts 10:34 and Romans 2:11 it establishes the fact that God doesnt show partiality, and if u think about it, no matter how "merciful" of Him it was to go out of His way to save a group "the elect" from hell by His grace and sovereign will alone He would be showing partiality and He is not a partial.
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore If you throw election out of the picture, well then you end up with a God that tries to save but often fails. Jesus saves, He doesn't just try to save. This doesn't mean that God is partial.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain No not at all u end up with a more loving God, who gives mercy to all, not just some, who gives grace to all not just some, and who is completely just and awesome. He doesnt fail at all it takes so much more sovereignty to work with free will than predestination because in the end He will be glorified and He will be victorious, Calvinism takes away from His sovereignty and His nature. Give me one good reason why election isnt partial?
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore No you end up with a God who SAVES, not a God who often fails to save. As for the rest of that, God saves according to His will. I don't have time for a long answer, but read Romans 9.
Sorry, I've got to put this discussion with you on hold, I don't mean to but I have to.
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
I have been sick, and in 2 days I've got to have a oral surgery on my infected gum to remove a tooth fragment and worse: my grandmother was just diagnosed with lung cancer that may have already spread and an intestinal blockage and is having surgery in the morning. Depending on how that goes, I'm unsure as to how often I will be on youtube, but if anything I'm putting all discussions on hold until I can actually answer people. Sorry, but I hope you understand....
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Romans 9 is based of conditions, and nations as well, Read Jeremiah 18:4-10 and Isaiah 65:1-2,11-14, and 66:4 shows how its all based off of abiding, it shows how God is merciful and how salvation is conditional. feel better
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore God is indeed merciful. But honestly, those scriptures just make my view more solid from the way I see it.
God can pick and chose nations, but not the people who make up those nations?
thanks.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Its not about salvation haha and if u read Jeremiah 18:1-10 it shows how the molding is conditional upon our choices, He says salvation is to both the jew and the gentile anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord, and countless times, for all who believe, 1 Peter 1:1-2 elect according to foreknowledge it is about a straight forward as u can get
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Salvation IS only for those who believe but those who do not believe are in unbelief because they are not of the sheep (John 10:26). All who believe and are saved are of the elect.
Election is based only on the will of God and the basis of our election is not based on anything we've done or are going to do but rather it is based ONLY on the will of God for His own pleasure. Ephesians 1:5 states that we were predestined in accordance with His will for His pleasure.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore
For instance, Romans 9:11-13--Jacob and Esau--election wasn't based on the twins works but was predestined in order that God's purpose in election would stand and NOT by the (future) works of either of the twins. It's all dependent on God's mercy and not our works, because Romans 9:15-16 is clear that He has mercy on whom He will have mercy...it doesn't say He has mercy on those whom by their own works merit His mercy.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore As for 1 Peter 1:1-2 (and similar verses, such as Romans 8:29), this isn't meaning that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of the future by looking in advace to see who will believe the gospel and then predestinatng them according to their own choices...logically, your view isn't even possible because if it were left to OUR choice we're ALL going to chose sin and death over righteousness and life because ...{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
if it were left to OUR choice we're ALL going to chose sin and death over righteousness and life because we are all bound to our totally dead and depraved nature and bound to hell.
We can't use our free will to make a choice that our nature does not allow us to make, because we can only chose according to our natures--in the case of humans, that is to chose darkness over life. I do believe we have 'free will' in that we make choices. But our wills are not 'free', we are in bondage to sin.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore God chose to adopt His own before His own even were in existance..the elect's relationship with God existed before the elect themseleves existed. We follow God because He loves us, chose us, and elected us...not because we loved him first.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
God has mercy on whom He will have mercy and the rest He leaves to their sin. And interestingly, almost as if it was EXPECTED we'd argue against the 'fairness of this' we come to "You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?. "
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore So basically, if we believe it is because we are of the sheep. God doesn't base His decrees on His knowledge of the future...
I'm not saying God doesn't save those who seek Him or that He turns people away....and even IF you are right and God used foreknowledge to see who would be of the elect--the faith that God is foreseeing is still, in fact the faith which God Himself grants to us...
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
So, granted, perhaps God could look into the future and see that He will grant a particular person faith...so I suppose God could use foreknowledge to foresee whether or not it is in His decree to produce faith in someone, because obviously faith is from God because no one can come to Him unless drawn by the Father to do so (John 6:44, John 6:65, Philippians 1:29).
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
So...hmm...even if foreknowledge is a factor in election, it's still based on God's action and not ours, so your argument doesn't disprove my position. :)
Because ultimately, it's all His work and none of ours no matter how (biblically) you look at it.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore I'm just going to end this:
The Westminster Confession of Faith; Chapter 3: OF GOD'S ETERNAL DECREE:
"1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation.
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel."
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain 2 Peter 2:1 false prophets denying the Master who BOUGHT them... Jesus died for the false prophets did u know that? 2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.... being called ( irresistable grace as u would put it, and being elected ) doesn't result in 100% salvation, theres things we need to do to ensure our election to stand.
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore like PERSEVERE.. not works, its not of works... accepting, believing and persevering.
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore
Whoa, wow. Jesus died for the false prophets...really now? Do false prophets go to heaven? No...I'm pretty sure they are of the ones that Jesus will say "I never you" of. This is a very dangerous statement to make, because Jesus didn't die for anyone in hell! That is a ridiculous assumption because Jesus didn't spill a drop of blood in vain, and what is the point in Jesus paying the penalty only to require it to be paid of those He died for in hell?
Cont.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Now you're arguing for synergy--something not taught in sola scriptura.. Things we need to do to make our election stand? God saves us by faith alone, and there is nothing we can add to keep or lose our salvation. Examining your relationship with God is a completely different thing than trying to keep your Salvation.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Ya Ephesians 1:5 isnt talking about individual people being elected, i dont even kinda get how someone can get individual unconditional election out of that... more like predestining, hmm lets try a whole race, like possibly the Gentiles and Jews? ya read Ephesians 3:3 through however much more verses it takes to get tht and if u dont ever get it, ur closed off to who God really is and His nature...
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore I can't understand why you think God only elects nations and not individuals. That makes absolutely no sense. Israel is God's chosen nation, however God also extends mercy to His chosen who are Gentile as well. Elect Jews and Elect Gentiles. The Bible says He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Everything works out according to God's decrees and will, even the wicked for the day of destruction. Faith is the gift of God...who has faith? Nations, or individuals?
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain do u even know where in the Old testament it talks about having mercy on whom He will? u should look at its original context, ill give u a hint, its in Exodus
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Oh, and I'm closed off to who God is and I don't ever get it?
Actually, I could reverse that statement. You're the one who doesn't seem to be 'getting it'. I'm not closed off to who God really is. God is sovereign, we are not. I don't think anyone truely understands all the ways of God. However, I was more 'closed off' to the nature of God back before I came to my current view of Him. So, interesting you'd say that...lol
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain, funny u used to be an arminian, and i used to be a calvinist, what a coincidence, God is sovereign thats a fact, and it takes way more sovereignty away from God, to believe in calvinism and u dont even see it. Working all things according to ur will based off of foreknowledge seems more sovereingn than predestining everything according to His will... think bout it.
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore At one point you were raised with the Calvinist view of predestination and eternal security but were not familiar with even the 5 points of Calvinism (even if you would have agreed with it)....after you first said you were just recently introduced to Calvinism...so while you may have held to a few Calvinistic patterns of thought, I'm not sure you'd have been considered a Calvinist. :p no offense. I used to go to Nazerine and Free Will Baptist churches and hate Calvinism...
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore no, it doesn't. Believe me, this is the point I've thought the most about. I didn't flippantly become a Calvinist. lol
What you're saying makes God dependent on OUR CHOICES when God is in fact in charge and we are under the decree of His choices.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain U didnt flippantly become a calvinist? it's not very hard to see when u open ur eyes that all 5 points are flawed, and LIMITED ATONEMENT is the most insulting point there is to God and His nature. Calvinism insults God, therefore it insults me
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore lol...I had my eyes closed at first and couldn't' see the truth of Calvinism...or rather, the Bible. I was so hostile to Calvinsim that I owed the person who introduced me to it a major apology for the way I attacked him for telling the truth. Calvinism doesn't insult God, Arminianism exalts man and thus is insulting to me.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain im not an arminian first i just agree with them more, second in no way is man exalted, God gets all the glory and praise if someone accepts His gift, thats illogical to say someone gets exalted for accepting an undeserved gift
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@innocenceagain so i went to the site and well all the verses are either severely out of context or disprove ur own doctrine
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore lol, okay then. if you say so.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain I say so, but u prolly knew i would
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore lol yeah, but whatever. it's all in contest and non contradicting. you probably knew i'd say that.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
read all the verses in this chapter up to 10 really study verse 9 in particular
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore 2Pe 1:10 is one of the verses on the site used out of context, go figure
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@innocenceagain i was expecting u to say context, but u threw me off with the contest part =P curve ball
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@innocenceagain lol, context. i'm multitasking (i'm trying to hold a contest...) and erm...whoops.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain and again However u put unconditional election, no matter how nice u make God sound, it makes Him partial, you see if God decides to pick you and no me just because He can, thats called partiality and now ur saying the bible contradicts itself, which isnt smart.
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Huh? Of course the Bible doesnt' contradict itself... No matter how you word it, you're putting man in control and God at our command.
Look, if you'd rather God left it up to us, then okay...however, again: we're all going to hell then.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain no calvinism contradicts the bible, esp limited atonement and Unconditional Election, and Irresistable rape, and Perseverance of the saints, i dont say total depravity because its partially right.... Not at all putting God at our command.
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore it doesn't contridict the Bible....but...uhm...irresistible rape?
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain oh ya sorry irresistible rape- is like spiritual rape by force, against will, its the equivalent to irresistable grace
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore
...I don't think you understand the concept of irresistible grace.
It's not 'force'.
The elect WANT and DESIRE to be saved.
(whereas with rape, you don't want or desire to be raped...obviously).
The reprobate DON'T want to be saved.
I find your analogy to be insulting to the word of God......
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Not at all the analogy works perfectly fine considering nowhere in the bible does it teach this, but anyways the "elect" person doesnt want to be saved at all, the irresistable grace, changes there heart and spiritual conditions when they are dead in there sins, and u and i can both agree someone who is spiritually dead does not want to be saved, so its spiritual rape.....
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Man is spiritually DEAD. Not sick, DEAD. Our wills are not free because they are in bondage to sin...thus our free wills are not 'free'. Since we're spiritually DEAD we can't decide to 'resurrect' ourselves. Also, natural man CANNOT understand the Gospel due to lack of spiritual discernment and "preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness"....
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
we cannot in any way contribute to our salvation anymore than Lazarus contributed to his physical reserrection. The Bible clearly teaches that we must be regenerate in order to belive...if we can on our own decide to belive without first being regenerated, then your order of regeneration after faith makes NO SENSE because if man is able to chose to believe to begin with, then he can, on his own decide to continue to believe on their own.
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
There's no purpose in it if the Holy Spirit regenerates us AFTER belief....we are regenerated in order to enable us to believe. If faith is possible without regeneration, then all of salvation: sanctification and glorification also are. If you say that men can begin the process of Salvation on their own, then why can they not finish what they began? The bible says it is GOD who began the good work in us, and not ourselves.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
God does begin the work but at the same time it is very evident that He does this for everyone. John 16:8 the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. Conviction is what leads us to repentance.God gives everyone conviction and everyone the ability to repent. Acts 5:31 is repentance granted to Israel/ the jews. Acts 11:18 repentence granted to the Gentiles.through repentance comes the knowledge of the light. i wiuld still like an example of regeneration b4 belief
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
We're not good because of our sin...a sinner cannot randomly decide to be righteous (Jer. 13:3). It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to save ourselves...it's all God's work all for God's glory.You're basically arguing that we have merit outside of God...we do not all by our lonesome do ANYTHING (including making a 'choice' for Christ) that God rewards us for Salvation for.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Physical death and Spiritual death are different in many ways, a spiritually dead man can percieve the things of the Spirit a dead man cannot percieve the things of the living, Lazarus is the worst analogy and i hear it so much its sad.... and after regeneration a man can decide to continue to believe or FALL AWAY the bible teaches falling away in depth and great detail
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore no, a spiritually dead man cannot understand the things of God...they are foolish to him.
You're believing in a Jesus who needs your help, and cooperation. Sorry, but Jesus can keep you. Do you think Jesus died so that we would fall away? Nope.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore If you want to argue that God is a spiritual rapist, then you are arguing that God is unjust....
I don't recall reading that Jesus asked Lazarus for permission before he resurrected him...what if it was against the will of Lazarus to come forth from the dead?
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Regeneration happens as the bible says, after we look to Jesus. John 3:14 is a awesome pic of regeneration. Numbers 21:9 they look to the snake then the venom is removed, so it is with the cross, we look to Jesus then we are regenerated.. Ephesians 1:13 it happens after belief again
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Again, to natural man scripture is foolishness and thus we wouldn't even look to the Scriptures unless God had his hand in our doing so...we turn our eyes to the cross because He first loved us...not because we in our own goodness decided to do the right thing and do Jesus the favor of coming to Him.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain No i am not arguing that God is unjust, im telling u the nature of God, how calvinism describes it is UNJUST... The nature of God how the bible describes is absolutely JUSt and Impartial. Again with the Lazarus thing.. resurrecting Lazarus from the dead wasnt even a salvation issue so im not even gunna bother..
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore the point still remains: if man is spiritually dead, he is DEAD. A spirtually dead man can raise himself up as well as a physically dead man can.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Romans 2:15 the law is written on the heart of men...... through that God convicts us to Him, but some reject Him of there own choice not because He didn't hand pick them. Ephesians 1:13 Regeneration is the last thing that takes place, isnt that weird? sealed with the Holy Spirit = regeneration
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore yes, but that doesn't mean that we obey that law. Does everyone follow through with their convictions? No. But see, the elect are drawn by irresistible grace...and yes, when we reject God it IS by our own choice. Didn't I already say that our natural choice is to reject God?
Huh? We're sealed and guaranteed Salvation when we believe. Elect are surely going to believe.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Man written teachings in no way end this because biblically u are wrong. First off i assume you didn't read about the potter in Jeremiah 18 because it shows how the molding is CONDITIONAL. Matthew 11:28 come to me ALL who are weary. Ezekiel 33:11 God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and commands them to turn from There ways. CONDITION and LOVE
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore LOL...man written teachings? Okaaaay.
reformed {DOT} org/documents / wcf_ with _proofs / fix the link go to CH 3. Verse references. Enjoy.
Yeah, I've read all of Jeremiah, for your information. and i did go look it up. Salvation is conditional on sola fide and no more, and faith is granted to us by God. And yes, but remember that everything works out for the decree of God, even the day of destruction for the wicked...
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Lets say someone is drowning and someone is on a boat, the person on the boat is God, and the person in the water is in desperate need of saving... God throws a rope to the guy and He grabs it and doesnt drown, how does that put God at man's command, God gets all the praise and glory not the guy for simply holding on??? its the same concept and uve probably heard this before
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore sinners don't realize they're 'drowning'...and so even though God demands Salvation be preached to all, and gives us all a conscious, we don't respond unless He changes our hearts. Your scenario wouldn't happen because the man would tell God he liked the water. :p God would first have to regenerate the man and show him he was drowning before the man would grab the rope...
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain See right here "God would first have to regenerate the man and show him he was drowning before the man would grab the rope" with the analogy u left what the bible says and placed what u think, in its place.....Give me a verse that shows regeneration before belief please =D
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Ephesians 2:4-5, John 6:63-65.
If we can't believe without God allowing us to, then surely He has to allow us to before we believe...
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain yes um He does have to draw us, but drawing and regenration are 2 different things, He draws all men to Him, so when He does the drawing that is the point where we are able to accept Him, Yes we are made alive in Christ by grace. now if u read ephesians 2:8 For by Grace you have been saved through FAITH... so we are made alive in Christ through grace which is through faith. so faith and grace both came before the Being made alive haha
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Sorry if its unclear how i worded it Grace then faith, then regeneration, thats biblically how it lines up in this verse in ephesians
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@innocenceagain tell me what is the decree of God? from ur perspective?
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore
"The decrees of God are His eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His will, whereby, for His own glory, he hath fore-ordained whatsoever comes to pass."
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain where does it say he fore-ordained whatsoever to come to pass in the bible? i can agree He works all things for His glory, but that means is through His sovereignty and foreknowledge not of force..
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@innocenceagain See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. Colossians 2:8
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore yeah, but I'm not trying to take you captive through philosophy and empty deception through the tradition of men...I'm trying to show you clear scriptural truth, and a MONTH later we're still going around in circles. I'm starting to think the verses about avoiding vain quarrels apply here because so far, this entire discussion is proving to be unprofitable.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain empty deception through tradition of men is a perfect description of calvinism, i dont know a better way to puut it myself personally. its only unprofitable because ur not looking for context, the first verse u gave me for regeneration seemed to prove ur point until, well u read a little more of the context
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore tradition of men? there is no tradition of men. It's scripture and scripture alone. I'm not a Calvinist based on what man, or what any man did. I'm not a Calvinist because of John Calvin...I'm Reformed because that is the clear teaching of Scripture. Seeing as how I became a Calvinist through reading no writings of men but only the Bible and trying to argue against that and didn't read the reformers and become edified by it until AFTER I was a convinced Calvinist....
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore taking verses out of context is how false gospels get started... like Mormans and James 2
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore ....Mormonism? lol
I'm not taking anything out context, in fact in order to come to any other conclusion that that God decrees all things and that God saves us all by Himself is only possible by taking scripture out of context.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore anyways, I've said all I know to say to you...I'm holding on to the truths of God's word, and I pray you will also see them. At this point I think it's best that we agree to disagree, because there is nothing more to say that hasn't been said and ....
innocenceagain 1 year ago
also because I really am doing a horrible job of keeping up with this at the moment. Unfortunately, my grandmother was just diagnosed with stage 3 cancer in her lymph nodes, spine and lungs and we're waiting to see if it's spread to her brain before we know if there is any hope of treatments. She is sick....
innocenceagain 1 year ago
I'm dealing with that among other things, and this entire thing is time consuming so at the moment I see no further reason to go around in theological circles repeating ourselves...I don't feel as though it would be edifying to continue, unless you have specific questions...
God bless.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain 2 Peter 3:9 God wishes NONE should perish but that ALL should come to repentence..... it doesnt say that He wishes for the ELect to be saved and the others to burn in Hell. 1 Timothy 2:4 God desires ALL to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth... and NO 1 Peter 1:2 says ELECT let me repeat ELECT according to foreknowledge, FOREKNOWLEDGE NOT predestination
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Yes, but again even the wicked's destruction is under His decree.
Even if it's based on foreknowledge, like I said before: God has to turn our hearts to Him, so if He looks into the future, the only thing He's looking at is whether or not He is going to have mercy on us or not.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain and again with romans 9 its not getting u anywhere it shows how conditional salvation is, if ur familiar with a 66 book bible, Esau never served Jacob thats common sense right there, its nations, and making a choice to accept Jesus is not a WORK...
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore that still doesn't mean the God didn't chose Jacob over Esau....
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain It doesnt mean alot of things and unconditional election is one of those things it does not mean....
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore btw, I am slow to respond and I'm sorry. I've been kinda sick lately and I have been at doctors and I have to soon have some dental work that will probably not be awesome feeling so I'm not doing all that well with keeping up with comments/discussions. lol
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain and i have never found a passage that legitimitely teaches unconditional election incase u have one u would lik to share . . . . and remember Proverbs 27:17 ona my favorite verses
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@IamNOTlikeUnymore Predestination--election, is done by God's mercy. Not by us. (Romans 9:15-16). Romans 9:11--it doesn't say that God looked into the future and saw Jacob was good or bad...nor does it say that of Esau. Election is based on God's choice, not on what we will or will not do. So if God looks into the future to see whether or not we 'want' to be elected, that contridicts the fact that He doesn't base it on our works.
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Even if God DOES look into the future and see faith--it's the faith that God created, not faith that man mustered up himself.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
@innocenceagain God definitely created faith by all means, but biblically its something anyone can accept and any one can fall away from. Hebrews 6:4-6
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Jacob and Esau, that wsnt a salvation issue, and notice how it says the older will serve the younger. well if u go back to the story Esau never served Jacob, so that parts talking about the nations. He doesnt base it off works, He just knows how everything will play out, because He is all knowing. 9:15- God wants to have mercy on all Romans 11:32. . . He even has mercy on those who deny Him to a certain extent. - Romans 10:20-21.. . and 9:30-32 establishes a choice in faith. . .
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
@innocenceagain Salvation is not based on works not saying that in the slightest, its based on belief, which is a choice and God knows who will come to Him, and who will reject Him.
IamNOTlikeUnymore 1 year ago
Woohoo Eden ! You just broke the jackpot !
:D :D :D
lapkine77 1 year ago
:D HOWSO?! :D
innocenceagain 1 year ago
BECOZ THAR R LODZ OV CUMMINTS DERE ;D
lapkine77 1 year ago
@lapkine77 I KNOW, RITE?!
innocenceagain 1 year ago
YOO DOO ?
:C
lapkine77 1 year ago
@lapkine77 YEAH! I have 256 Comments!
Ohwait. I'm commenting! #257 ftw! yeah!
so yeah, I think I know dat. :p
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Works are NOT automatically the RESULT of salvation. We don't become automatically saintly in all our actions. It is a lifelong struggle in which we must persever till the end if we want to be finally saved.
pbaylis1 2 years ago
Matt 10:22 "He who perseveres till the end will be saved".
Note the future tense "will". If you're walking around believing you are finally saved, think again.
St Paul says "I am not conscious of anything against me, BUT I DO NOT THEREBY STAND ACQUITTED; The one who judges me is the Lord. THEREFORE, DO NOT MAKE ANY JUDGEMENT BEFORE THE APPOINTED TIME, until the Lord comes, for he will bring light to what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts...(1Cor 4:4-5)
pbaylis1 2 years ago
@pbaylis1 Of course. But faith WILL produce works, of some sort. I'm not saying that we're going to reach instant perfection. There is no such thing as being 'saintly in all our actions' right away. There will always be struggles with sin throughout life.
But if you are really a Christian God will keep you, so you WILL persevere.
innocenceagain 2 years ago
@innocenceagain. Do you think you are already saved or not?
pbaylis1 2 years ago
@pbaylis1
Yes.
innocenceagain 2 years ago
@innocenceagain What if you commit adultery or murder? Do you think you will lose that salvation?
pbaylis1 1 year ago
@innocenceagain.
What do you make of Paul's statement: "I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not therefore stand acquitted; The one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do no make any judgement before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring light to what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts...(1Cor 4:4-5)
pbaylis1 1 year ago
Only God knows the inner motives of a person--inner thoughts, attitudes, motives, etc. are not judge-able by man. Only God is able to praise or condemn since only He knows the intent.
Nothing about loss of eternal security. It's not contradicting the statements that promise us eternal life is eternal.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
1Cor 4:4-5 shows that there is an appointed time for judgement to be made as to one's acquittal, and that time is the second coming of Christ. Until that time, Paul is not willing to call himself finally acquitted and saved. Nos, if the apostle Paul himself is not going to claim that he has already passed the final judgement and has been saved, do you think you are better than Paul?
pbaylis1 1 year ago
Again: only God is the judge. When Paul said he is not conscious of anything faulty, is he talking of his personal life (about which he said he did the things he did not want to do and did not the things he did want), or his apostleship? God does see more clearly than we, and what we would consider clean is to Him as filthy.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Or, as Calvin better said it:
"Papists abuse this passage for the purpose of shaking the assurance of faith, and truly, I confess, that if their doctrine were admitted, we could do nothing but tremble in wretchedness during our whole life. For what tranquillity could our minds enjoy if it were to be determined from our works whether we are well-pleasing to God?
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
I confess, therefore, that from the main foundation of Papists there follows nothing but continual disquietude for consciences; and, accordingly, we teach that we must have recourse to the free promise of mercy, which is offered to us in Christ, that we may be fully assured that we are accounted righteous by God. "-Calvin's Commentaries
First Epistle to the Corinthians (Volume XX)
innocenceagain 1 year ago
This doesn't help your cause. You're simply showing Luther's inability to deal with the insecurity of a final judgement. Paul mentions this several times, e.g. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Paul deals with it. Luther can't.
By the way, I thought Calvinists were into "Predestination" and are never sure if they are one of the "chosen". How awful is that! I'd rather know that I could rely on the Mercy of God to forgive my daily sins if I confess and repent.
pbaylis1 1 year ago
lol. Luther? I never once quoted Luther. I quoted Calvin. :p You're just so anti-Luther than I guess you just attributed Calvin to Luther. lol
The Bible says to work OUT never does it say to work FOR.
Yeah, we're into predestination, but we're also into perseverance of the saints and have belief in eternal security.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Paul would have been contradicting himself if he was implying our Salvation was to be lost, or something we ourselves must 'keep'.
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."-Philippians 2:12-13
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
In verse 12 he was telling them he wasn't going to be there with them, but to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. But then into verse 13 Paul assures them that it is GOD that works in them to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure. In other words, because God works in them they WILL accomplish salvation. It's not ourselves! Paul is saying, "you were obedient while I was present, now be obedient when I'm not here anymore."
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Paul wasn't going to be present there forever, and thus they were 'on their own', with the Scripture. In other words: Paul's leadership isn't present. They were to work out their salvation but it was God who will WILL it and DO it. Paul was saying for us all to be obedient and to remain fearful of God.
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
for us all to be obedient and to remain fearful of God. Unsaved people have NO FEAR of God, saved people do. If unsaved people feared God, they would obey. Look throughout the Bible, when God manifested Himself to anyone, how'd they react? With fear and trembling! They held God in reverence and knew God didn't causally pause over sin.
{cont.}
innocenceagain 1 year ago
The evidence of Salvation is that we keep the word of God and repent when we fail and don't just causally blow it off. Paul was speaking of Godly fear. To have sinned against the Holy God is a FEARFUL thing. Without His mercy we are an abomination to be cast into hell. But he is faithful and just to forgive!
innocenceagain 1 year ago
innocenceagain "Luther? I never once quoted Luther. I quoted Calvin. :p You're just so anti-Luther than I guess you just attributed Calvin to Luther. lol "
Have you read the history of Luther? This was always a problem with him - inability to deal with the insecurity of having to wait for a final judgement. Calvin probably picked up on that.
pbaylis1 1 year ago
@pbaylis1 Yes, of course I've read the history of Luther and I've even read some of Luther. Calvin did agree with Luther on many things, obviously.
Luther had the 'inability to wait for a final judgment' regarding SALVATION because Salvation is pre-ordained by God, and Salvation is assured to us that no one can pluck us out of the Father's hand...
innocenceagain 1 year ago
So, what if you roll up to the pearly gates only to find that you were predestined for damnation. I think I'm starting to see how that might work. I've often wondered how the heck some of you rebels can be so stubborn in the face of absolute reason. I think this might have something to do with predestination - it's literally impossible for you to take in the truth because somehow you are ordained to live a lie and die that way. Might it be something along those lines?
pbaylis1 1 year ago
@pbaylis1 Damnation is all that I deserve, grace is what keeps me from it. I recognize I have no claim to Heaven apart from Christ. If I go to hell, it's what I deserve, but I won't go to hell because of the atonement Christ made. But hypothetically, if I went to hell, I know I deserve it. But Christ atoned for me.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
If one goes to hell, yes, it is what one surely deserves.
So, now, effectively what you're saying is that you are NOT certain of your salvation. Whereas before, when I asked you this question, you gave me a resounding yes! and complained that the RCC gives people complete insecurity about their salvation. Well, I feel VERY secure that, if I sin, I can be restored again by repentance. It is God's mercy that I rely on. But, you have NO IDEA how God has predestined you.
pbaylis1 1 year ago
I never once said what you said I said, I answered your question on the basis of your belief being true--it was a HYPOTHETICAL answer.
If eternal security isn't true--IF--and I go to hell, it's what I deserve.
However, I do have eternal security based on nothing I've done and so I'm not going to hell.
innocenceagain 1 year ago
Yes, it was Saunders who gave the resounding "Yes!". Maybe you two are from different denominations. Why can't you just get along.
What you're say