Pentecostalism and the Cessation of the Spirtual Gifts

[tassiespirit]

If "when perfection "comes means Christ returns then the "gifts"have not ceased yet, but they will then, thats the way I read it? Only Christ is perfect not the church. In Rom 11:29 it says that the "gifts" and " call" are irrevocable, then what gives ??? Christ has not removed the Holy Spirit, He is still with us and helping us til Christs' return, as our calling to spread the Word of God is still current.

[guidedbytruth]

We have not claimed that the church was perfect or that it has anything to do with the gifts ceasing. It is the Word of God that is perfect and when it came, the gifts did cease.

James 1:22-25 calls the Word perfect and he also likens it unto a mirror. It was when the perfect Word of God was complete that the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians were no longer given because they were no longer needed. All necessary prophecy, words of wisdom, etc were now recorded for us all to see.

[tassiespirit]

Thank you for the reply, just an observation, James was written before 1 Cor 13 and 14 and mentions us to DO not just HEAR the word of God, to look at the perfect Word of God ( and do it as Jesus told us to do); and does not refer to the finishing of the Spiritual Gifts . Since Paul was still telling the Corinthian church ( thats everyone) to use and desire certain gifts. And become mature like Christ - why would he do that if they were to cease. The Word is perfect but NOT FULLFILLED yet.

[guidedbytruth]

The Word is perfect but at the time the letter to the Corinthians was written, it was not yet complete. Now, the Word of God is COMPLETE and therefore the need for the gifts has ceased. Paul told them to seek certain gifts because at that time they could not read all the books of the Bible to find out how to become mature in Christ without them. Note that in the context of telling them to seek certain gifts he also warned them one day those gifts would not be available.

[tassiespirit]

thankyou for the feedback. It is good to hear what the Word of God says.

I agree that they will not be available in the future ( last part of your comment). In John 1:1 The Word was with God and the Word was God part - to means Jesus is the word - The perfect Word of God. We have the written Word of God. Put together in about 397 AD. When christ comes again all bets are off as we only need Him not the Holy Spirit which he left us to be wth us. HS is still with us. Thank you for your help.

[guidedbytruth]

Jesus was the Word made flesh, but the Scriptures are still the word of God and are what James was referring to which is obvious since he used the word "law" in the context of speaking about it. Paul never used the phrase Word of God, but said "THAT which is perfect" will come, meaning a thing, not who which is perfect, meaning a man. Your argument confuses me because to make it you suggest that the Scriptures are not the word of God and are also not perfect. Is that so?

[guidedbytruth]

The word used in Rom 11:29 translated irrevocable here means "without repentance" or "without regret" as we see when the NIV also translated that same word "leaves no regret" in 2 Cor 7:10. While it is clear that God does not regret giving any gift, the context is more closely speaking about the gift of salvation as the passage in the previous verse starts with "as far as the gospel is concerned." There are still gifts we are given, and salvation is the greatest of all of them.

[Iseeit4u]

Thank you and God bless you for this lesson! This is the best I have ever heard on this subject. I prayed for answers and have found them. I wanted to know if the gifts people claim to have were true or not, either way I just wanted to know God's will and was willing to accept whatever the message was. I feel so relieved and enlightened and know that I have what I need for salvation and to teach others in the Bible, I am not lacking the tools, just need to study more. God bless you!!!!

[filoIII]

hooey on the greek. give it to us in English . if it's perfect then you dont need the greek. either it IS perfect or it WAS perfect. which one is it? this will say alot about your theology.

[guidedbytruth]

The bible was inspired and written in the Greek. Not all things translate well into English, like the word agape translated merely as love for instance. The meaning is better understood by looking at the original language. The word in English does not tell us whether or not it speaking about a person or not but in the Greek the word has gender. By looking at the word in Greek we see it was not referring to a person and therefore was not referring to Jesus.

[slyhamster]

You know perfectly well that Paul is not referring to the Bible as perfection. He is referring to Christ's return. Paul had no part in assembling the books of the Bible besides writing a few. Its absurd for you to think he would alliterate to a compilation a bunch of old men would make in the future. There are more books than what are in the Bible. What of Enoch's book? He is REFERENCED as being inspired yet his work isn't included in the Old Testament. True perfection comes in Christ.

[guidedbytruth]

Of course if you fail to recognize that the Scriptures are either perfect or complete you will disagree with us. That is an argument AGAINST Pentecostalism! They have nothing to base their beliefs on because they look OUTSIDE of Scripture for what they believe. If they admit the Scriptures are both complete and perfect they must admit their doctrines are false. James tells us, like Paul did, that the Word is PERFECT (James 1:22-25) and that it is the mirror through which we view ourselves.

[slyhamster]

Ah the word isn't perfect until it is complete. Who said God's word is restricted to the books in the Bible? Besides that... back to the movie's reference of Corinthians 13:8.  Have tongues ceased? No. Has knowledge vanished? No. In fact, the human race knows more today than it ever has. Anyways I'll leave it at that.

[guidedbytruth]

Because God does not speak to us through prophecy anymore.

Heb 1:1 In the PAST God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets...but IN THESE LAST DAYS he has spoken to us by his Son

Then it tells us how we know what His Son said.

Heb 2:3...was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

Only books by the apostles would complete the NT because only they were alive to hear the Son. Acts 1 tells us an apostle must have been present from Jesus' baptism to His ascension.

[slyhamster]

I'm sorry.. but are you refuting all of the apostles prophesies? Thats heavy. I am getting too emotionally involved in this debate. I'm sorry, I can't continue, because I'll get mad and that isn't what I was trying to accomplish by posting here anyways. God Bless.

[guidedbytruth]

We are not refuting the prophecies of the NT apostles at all. The spiritual gifts were given to verify their message was from God.

Heb 2:3 This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

1 Cor 12:12 The things that mark an apostle — signs, wonders and miracles

Visit our website if you want to learn more.

[guidedbytruth]

The context of 1 Corinthians 13 is the gifts. Knowledge has not ceased, but the GIFT of knowledge has. Of course we still gain knowledge but we gain it through the Scripture not through some miraculous gift. Prophecy is not still given because we have something more certain, the Word of God (2 Peter 1:19). The word "tongue" literally means language and of course there will always be languages to communicate with. What we don't have is the GIFT of tongues to speak a language we do not know.

[mlculwell]

Yes, the scriptures are complete and no, it is not an argument against Pentecostals. The perfect(telio) is not the completed cannon, even if were speaking of the completion of the word, we still have the word of God and differing beliefs in multiple denominations. You believe in the trinity in which the scriptures do not say anything about. maybe you would like to discuss that?

[guidedbytruth]

Complete means that we have all the information we need (all necessary parts), therefore there is no longer a need for spiritual gifts. We now gain wisdom and knowledge from the Bible, which you admit is "complete" and therefore has all that we need.

Complete does not mean that people will be in agreement about what it says, only that all the information is there. The fact that the Bible warns us that people will stray from sound doctrine does not mean that our doctrine is not yet complete.

[zeph317]

Very good job answering these weak arguments. I appreciate your logic and reasoning ability. I have just came out of a pentecostal led program (who by the way, said that it was not pentecostal but non-denominational) and was trying to be open to tongues and such, but it never settled peacefully with me. I was in a constant state of alertness; alerting me that something here is amiss. Thanks for clearing things up for me in this regard.

[guidedbytruth]

We have addressed the trinity in an article on our website. Please visit guidedbytruth(dot)com if you truly desire to see the Scriptural support for the doctrine of the trinity and a response to the 60 Oneness Questions about it. Look for the topic "Oneness" to find the information you seek.

[parakeethands]

Christ and His Word are One. Christ = perfection, Scripture = perfection. Knowledge of Christ is knowledge of Scripture, knowledge of Scripture is knowledge of Christ. :)

[guidedbytruth]

Yes God's Word was complete when it was written and recorded by the men God inspired. Man had access to God's Word long before we had the printing press. According to your theory here Jesus didn't have any way to read the Old Testament if the Bible was not widely distributed until a millennium after his death! That argument is simply absurd and historically inaccurate.

In 2 Peter 3:16 we see Peter speaking about Paul's letter and already calling it among others as "Scripture."

[guidedbytruth]

This was in response to a comment left by BrotherMurray which was accidentally deleted. It had said:

Context, context, context, context.

When that which is perfect comes? The 7th day? ITS CHRIST'S MILLENIAL REIGN!

To support your denominations' lack of the Holy Ghost, you have to say that tongues ended 100 AD, YET the Bible was not widely distributed till over a millenium later! So did tongues continue in the places where the Bible was not distributed?

Repent.

[goinghome83]

Hello guided by truth. It is unfortunate that you do not live up to your name. =) You are clearly twisting this passage in I Corinthians 13 to fit your theology. The crux of the question from this verse is: "When will these gifts that are spoken of cease?" You are asserting that the gifts cease at the completion of the canon. The Bible does not say this. Read the passage in context please.

[guidedbytruth]

The Bible says the gifts WILL cease and it says it will happen when perfection comes. This is in reference to the Bible which is indeed perfect. What this passage does NOT say is that the gifts will cease when Jesus returns again. What it does tell us is that they WILL cease and they will do so during the life of the church here on earth. There would be no point in warning the church of their cessation otherwise.

[superkal2006]

people who have not recieved the baptism in the holy ghost have nothing to say that god approves of. they are nothing better than over abundant doctrinal fillabusters

[superkal2006]

well, if your gonna fight, lets fight. 1. believers in Jesus Christ are people who have been baptised in the Holy Ghost. 2. a person who has been baptised in the holy ghost speaks in tongues (that person has recieved the dorea of god and not specific charismas). and 3. if you have not recieved the baptism in the Holy ghost, your not born again and not saved........... remember foolish dispensationist doctrines stop at the walls of the sects that spawn them........

[guidedbytruth]

We are not here to fight, we are here to share truth of which we have Scripture to back up what we say. Not one verse in the bible says that all believers will speak in tongues. In fact, it quite clearly that only some will do so.

1 Cor 12:7-10

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To ONE there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom...to ANOTHER speaking in different kinds of tongues...

NIV

[Wbeliever7]

misinterpretation

[guidedbytruth]

Instead, let's be Scriptural.

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven...Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

1 John 4:1 do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

[familyoffaithchurch]

Just read I Corinthians 1:4-7: "I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

It is simple.

The gifts stop when Jesus comes.

His Kingdom is "that which is perfect".

The gifts will be here until the end.

[guidedbytruth]

As it was pointed out a few comments earlier, the word translated as "coming" is the Greek word "apokalupsis" which means "revelation." This same word is used in Revelation 1:1.

1 Cor 1:7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the REVELATION of our Lord Jesus Christ, NASU

Rev 1:1 The REVELATION of Jesus Christ NASU

When John finished writing the book of Revelation the written Word was complete and we had what Paul waited for the "apokalupsis of our Lord Jesus Christ."

[familyoffaithchurch]

The application of the "apokalupsis" rendered by the translators is "the coming", not "the book of Revelation".

What we have is a desired view, and the willingness to search for a way to conclude.

Completion of the Bible? No.

Listen to the references used to discard the gifts, they are all out of context. Even the approach given at 9:00 that "when these gifts cease, we will have the perfect thing". this has the end of gifts bringing the word. Ignorance, plain and simple.

[guidedbytruth]

No, it is people who deny the cessation of the gifts who ignore clear Scripture and it's context.

Are you denying that what John wrote was the "Revelation Of Jesus Christ" as John said it was in Revelation 1:1? Because that word for Revelation there was the very same word that Paul used in 1 Corinthians 1:7.

Are you denying that the Word of God is perfect? James refers to God's Word as perfect in James 1:26. That is the exact same word Paul used for perfect in 1 Corinthians 13:10.

[familyoffaithchurch]

The Word is absolutely perfect, but is not the "Revelation" of Jesus Christ, a more proper rendering would be "The Apocalypse of jesus Christ", His return.

What John has titled as his book the Revelation of Jesus Christ speaks to things that are, and will be.

Jesus has not been clearly revealed to the world in the sense of the Book of Revelation, which pertains to the events surrounding the end and Christs return. The gifts will be here until Jesus Comes.

[guidedbytruth]

The word "apokalupsis" was not rendered by all translators as "coming".

Some translations that render the word "apokalupsis" as "revelation" are the NIV, NKJV, ASB, NASB, NASU, YLT.

It is obvious that these translations are correct because the Greek word "apokalupsis" means "disclosure of truth, instruction."

This word is used 18 times in the Bible and in the KJV this word was rendered as "revelation" 12 times and this is the only time the KJV rendered it as "coming."

[C3henille]

I love this video.

[bg4u2]

Paul did NOT say they would SOON end....only that they would someday end.

The Bible is perfect....and it is the Bible that tells us not come behind in ANY gift while wait for the return of Jesus.

That completely conflicts with waiting for the completion of the Canon of Scripture. So is the Perfect SAcripture right?

[reformedcalvinist216]

paul tells the church to be lacking in no gift until the coming (apokalupsis-revelation) of jesus christ, who will confirm (stabilize) you until the end (the return/judgement)

the order is clear, the charismatic gifts to speak the word of god, until that which is perfect (complete...which is the apokalupsis) then after this comes the end.

1 cor 1:7 supports the cessationist position, even when the opponent of the cessation of charismatic gifts attempts to use 1:cor 1:7 as a straw man argument.

[bg4u2]

Wait....you said Paul stopped utilizing the gifts while still alive, but he admonished the churches not to do exactly what you claim he did....1 Cor.1:7

[reformedcalvinist216]

1 cor 1:7...the term "coming" is the greek "apokalupsis", which means the revelation of Christ. paul uses this term in similar fashion in galatians 1:12, referring to the word of god given unto him on the road to damascus. whenever paul is referring to the literal "return" of jesus, he uses the greek word "parousia", not apokalupsis. 1 corinthians 1:7 actually supports the cessation position, by paul's telling the church to be lacking in no gift until the "revelation" of christ; the scripture

[bg4u2]

We have the Bible but it does not make us perfect....that is still coming....when He shall apear...

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Also, campare to 1 Cor. 1:7

We know the gifts will end, but what Scripture do you have for that being the Canon of Scripture.

[reformedcalvinist216]

bg4u2....

2 Timothy 3:15-17

"scripture is able to make a man wise unto salvation"

"scripture is god-breathed"

"scripture is given.....that the man of God may be PERFECT"

[bg4u2]

"That which is to come" is not Jesus....but rather when WE are changed into perfection, when we see Christ.

[reformedcalvinist216]

do you not see christ when you read the scriptures?

[glenbruner2525]

Dont you think that if there was a cessation of the gifts that God would have made it clearer, like (they are going to STOP when the last Apostle dies or something like that? 532,000,000 Spirit Filled Christians worldwide are not Wrong?

[guidedbytruth]

Read Hebrews 2:1-4. Those who heard him were the apostles who already confirmed their message through signs and wonders. We no long have apostles or the need for such confirmations, we have something better - the complete written Word of God. Also, truth is not determined by numbers. Regardless of how "many" people are doing it does not make it Biblical.

[jterry316]

guidedbytruth- Amen and thank you for posting this. God bless you.

[reformedcalvinist216]

he did say they would stop...in fact, He said they would cease.  very clear.

strength is definitely found in numbers...but truth is not.

[Progamble]

Are millions of Catholics wrong? Are millions of Buddhists wrong? What about Muslims? could millions of them be wrong? Numbers do not prove or disprove an argument. Let me ask u are millions of Reformed Christians wrong?

[rafawarrior]

Matthew 22:14

"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

[FirebrandNIRE]

The Greek reads something like " When that which is completed and given or supplied" which I believe is the compilation of Holy Writ.

[Grillsy87]

Nice use of propaganda.

Perhaps you could grab a dictionary or some "I Can Read Books" and you may better understand that scriptures that you are using.

"That which is perfect" is refering to the return of Jesus when we will be made perfect hence "face to face" (look at the greek).

Why deny the gifts? When there is NO evidence of cessation?

I'm sorry that you have been brainwashed by impassionate cessationist Christians.

Next time use your scripture in context and do better research.

[guidedbytruth]

Please visit our website where we address these passages in great detail; where we also provide extensive evidence for the cessation of the gifts.

[TheJamieShow]

no evidence... except the fact that no one has the gifts today. i know many many Christians, and none have any of the gifts. the only time you hear about it is from the pentecostal church.

[CDM1MDC]

Why use the NIV as a reference when its well known if its perverse interpretation of GODS word

[guidedbytruth]

It is not a perverse interpretation but a faithful translation. We would encourage you to truly research this issue.

[VashZaStampede]

thank you for this wonderful presentation. I was always confused on this subject of the gifts of the Spirit but now it's all very clear to me. thank you and God bless you!

[TheExpositor]

Nah, they always interrupt. But, there's not interpreter. I feel you Smush

[smush13]

Good video. Tongues are gone they are not being used like they were used in the bible. They just babble.

There is never an Interrupter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dbzgtcrazy]

that was very clear and likely the best interpretation/connection of passages of scripture concerning the special gifts of the Spirit I have heard or read as of yet. Thank you!