@Curseco somebody obviously isn't a very good philosopher. I give your comment an 0/5 for a lack of insight and the overall self-insecurity displayed by your reasoning. Someone that is confident in themselves would find this scene interesting rather than disturbing, it is just a game after all.
@picklemnstr11No, the events of *this* game were just a test. Shadow Moses was (probably) pretty much real, and the threat posed by Liquid and REX seemed to be genuine. Of course, knowing Kojima, he probably changed his mind about it later :D
Well, not *real* real. It was a game, after all, and this game cleverly comments on the relationship between a game and the player, something MGS4 failed to do... but whatever.
Um.. can anyone tell how to look for a video of part 0:50 where snake and campbell are talking? i remember seeing that scene in metal gear solid for the ps1 but i can't seem to find it...
Also, I think Rose's eyes turn white when JD calls you again halfway through the Solidus battle. I wonder if those convos have been uploaded here, because they contained more info on the subject.
Really interesting stuff. MGS4's retcons and other explanations kinda watered this scene down for me, but it's still very thought provoking... and stuff.
As much as I would like to believe that I'm qualified to rule myself, decide for myself and think for myself, sometimes I do wonder if the world would actually be better in the control of someone like The Patriots... but then, maybe humans will one day learn how to use their free will for good.
Thanks for sharing this! I love this scene but I don't really have the patience to wade through the more boring parts of MGS2 to get to this.
@Larrylarp You're welcome. Your comment pretty much sums up what I got out of the whole conversation and why I uploaded it. I personally don't think anyone completely rules themselves 100%, considering in some way or form, we look to others and follow the examples of those around us. Parents for instance.
I haven't uploaded the other relevant conversations on this channel, as I uploaded this mainly for the social commentary and not so much the in-game universe.
Raiden at the time was busy finding himself and who he truly is after years of being a tool for the Govt. Without Snake, who knows how the "simulation" would have ended.
Too bad MGS3-4 does away with all the lessons Snake and Raiden learned and almost all the mysticism in the series.
Our life recours into a system. We Born, we grow, we love, we believe, we reproduce, we diminuish, we die. We all keep doing this. It is foolish to think we break the System. Its the truth. Its what they say. The problem is that they forgot about "we resent". That's the feelings. Reports through-out history mention people that fought and won. They changed their plans. They changed them to befit their need, but that's their plan all along. I only have one last question: Who are they?
here's a detail people here are forgetting: JD, the patriot's AI, is corrupted here, the entire structure of it made a huge miscalculation, their entire way of thinking is part of that same corruption
What are you trying to say Roy, is it that us people as humans do not deserve to progress because we discovered who we were ment to become, and cover it up like a damn fairy tale?! That's like being in hell, and coming back worse because of our truth being found as a punishment to make that a sin. All that said and done, what's left for life to take as a role if everything we did is all a lie? Tell me just one thing that's not a lie, and I can take it all the way. (Insert response to continue)
I think this is being overthought. Whether or not JD can validate that the individual is insecure and uncertain of how to use the sudden freedom given due to the digital age, this does not give anything the right to take away the individual's freedom. JD's priorities lie in assuring society continues to progress as a species, but the priority of others may be freedom before this. Life is nothing without freedom, regardless of where it takes us, so I am glad they manage to stop the Patriots.
...because having the power to do something doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of that very act. Free will means simply the "freedom" to decide what to do with your own life and to chose what to think and accept. But because of that, humans become more and more corrupt with that power, because they feel somehow "superior" by that sense of freedom. Just as the AI said:
We haven't got the qualifications to decide for ourselves, simply because we take actions, without studying the outcome
Ya know, partially, the patriots are right; humans should stop abusing their free will to justify all their crimes and all the immorality they do. I completely agree with that, but still, they also try to rob people of their free will by controlling their very thoughts and actions. So basically, one really doesn't know what to decide; to live peacefully without free will, or to live like nowadays, but freely. As for me, humans should really consider the consequences of their own actions...
Wait a second... GW said here that they have proof that damage control is possible even in the most extreme circumstances, yet the Patriots' most valued and trusted man - Ocelot - is the one who leaks the test data for Metal Gear to the entire world. Moreover, after discovering the truth, Raiden is reluctant to follow orders. Is it possible that the entire conversation the Colonel has at the end of the game is completely untrue of the AI network?
I remember playing this game some years back and being blown away by this end sequence. In game it's exciting and interesting to think about but when you see these believes being acted upon in the real world it's a bit lame and ridiculous. All this talk of controlling peoples behaviors and actions. Military, espionage and politics... It all seems very childish. I saw someone mentioned the venus project here on the comments. The Venus Project makes sense. Our current system is outdated!
A system for controlling information and human thought to stimulate the evolution of the species. Well, we'd like mankind to release and focus its collective potential on relevant things. A bit like the goal of the Venus Project in terms of abolishing completely meaningless branches of thought and behaviour to which we are conditioned, the trash that the colonel/AI implies to. We'd need a system because it takes reaching serious self-awareness to do it, and everyone are not capable/willing. ???
can someone explain to me what the S3 plan really is because i played this game so many times and i still didnt get what they were saying about the S3 plan?
"Between stimulus and response, man has the freedom to choose."
With self awareness, we need not be controlled by our circumstances, or be determined by things like our genes, our parents, or even our environment.
We can be determined by these things, but it is 'our' choice to be so.
If our lives are a function of conditioning and conditions, it is because we have, by concious decision or by default chosen 2 empower these things to control us.
@iwildboy3 The main good characters of the story (Snake, Raiden, Otacon, Olga, Grey Fox, Johnny, Meryl, etc.) have all been completely lied to by everyone (the Patriots, their family in some cases, their commanders, the government, etc.). The story is basically seen through the eyes of a pawn on the great battlefield between greater figures. In fact at some point in the story (or rather throughout the whole story) the characters realize that they are just pawns. This is one of those moments.
a system built to ultimatley control human context.
Used to control ideologies, religious beliefs, and cultural beliefs.
In a world of the mass media, internet , I can see the point of Kojima's vision....
A system of control by regulating any at all information. Even if what was being erased was half truths and opinions, leaving nothing but the cold hard facts... well that is what Humanity is...half truths and opinions.
I hope im not the only one that PARTLY agrees with what the patrots are trying to do. I mean someone or something has to put a stop to the "half truths" and immorality that is spread by society and catalyzed by the digital age. But on the other side, who is in favor of an AI filtering and determining what is truth and isnt? Its a very controversial topic -_-
The intentions of such a role are fair, but it's too corruptible, in that it could be set to determine things we don't want in the end.
Think of it like gun control, and the concept of firearm registration. The intentions are fair, but it's corruptible because it could seriously screw over countless other law-abiding gun-owners.
Sorry I couldn't come up with a more original comparison. xD
Yea in the end it would only lead to something we dont want. I guess societies immoralities and "half truths" are something we'll just have to live with -_-
Society's half-truths and immoralities are a pain in the ass to deal with in daily living, but for some reason, it seems better than being under the control of some God-like computer. We as humans have the right to determine things as we see fit, but our right also comes with great responsibility. And when it comes to "truth", we must look at both sides and come to our conclusions based on what we learn.
Use your power for the right things, at least the things you believe in.
Personally, I think many of those who truly understand the message (and based on some of the comments here, minus the tinfoils) agree with the original intentions of the Patriots. It's their methods that's another story.
Thinking about it, the AI was likely designed not to become corrupted as a human would if he or she was given that kind of power. This is why I don't believe individuals should decide for themselves what is right or wrong, as they can pick and choose what is and what isn't...
... to their convenience. It's too easily corruptible if not self-destructive.
And yet, the AI shows an almost human trait in allowing itself to still become corrupted as well. I guess what I'm saying is that humans, given that kind of power, would easily fall subject to corruption. And an AI designed to be superior and look over humans, ends up being corrupted as well.
But the way I see it, if we don't fight against corruption, immorality, deceit, and evil in their various forms, our...
...society will degenerate into something where something like this might be seen as a necessity and people will become dependant on something other than themselves when they don't want to suffer the consequences or failures of their actions.
So I'm not denying the possibility of this ever happening sometime to the human race. It's kind of fun to think about in a sense. The future, man vs. technology and all that good stuff.
@SestrenNK We'll do you enjoy your freedom and the ability to do what you want so far as you don't break the law? Is yes, then why would you want a big brother watching every move you make and dictating what you can and cannot do? These computers make a good point, but in the end isn't that the point of evolution? To grow and change over time without the need of sentient being or beings watching over us?
@Virgil077 Then youtube should be taken off the internet and dont worry. There are companies already taking control of the internet and they already have us by the balls in terms of lyfestyle...the world is just number on a screen for some people. And that some people just so happen to be our world leaders...ha...
This has to be the freakiest Codec call ever in the MGS series. It really makes me think about how I am, and how my own actions from the past to now have shaped me. I have to admit that I don't quite understand everything brought up in that conversation but some of the content has seeped through.
what campbell is saying could never happen because it doesnt account for the basic human instinct to attain power. The human species is anything but rational.
Moreover, the s3 system could never work because it doesnt allow humans to make mistakes. Without making mistakes, we would never learn and grow. This "context" would turn humans into nonviolent, rational machines.
If the world around you was developed by the S3 system, you couldnt tell between it and reality. You wouldnt be able to seek power if it disallowed it.
And that is the S3's purpose, to 'evolve' humanity beyond its violence and animalistic instincts. Either that, or we become what the patriots want us to.
I hate to admit it, but I thought a little less about the AI in MGS2. As it turns out, the AI was just a network that propagated itself via warfare, automatically adding funds to companies and figures tied to the military-industrial complex, using war as a means of economics. There seems to be a slight contradiction between the truth revealed in MGS4 and this conversation in MGS2.
However, I still find this conversation to be......life-changing.
I found myself thinking the same thing. But then again I did upload it for its social value. Still, I found what we learned in MGS4 to somewhat take away from what is said here. But this alone is still really good stuff.
No. The AI is saying that in the modern day society, thanks to the internet and other technologies, mankind is becoming more flawed, stunting humanities evolution, because so many wrong and biased points are made that other people will believe them, causing a shift in what is true and what isnt. In order to help solve this species wide problem, they plan to use the S3 system to control mankind and help it learn only their truth, so what the AI calls truth is known as the truth.
Or at least, thats the gist of it. The AI plans to control mankind to stop is from devolving socially, and while this is sensible, it means the AI can shape the truth and the times as it sees fit.
The Patriots' determination of one's fate doesn't come into play until nanomachines linked to the system are injected into people, though. When that happens, then life becomes an Orwellian wet-dream, where so much as thinking something could determine your fate in accordance to the computer's logic and protocols. And of course there are agents of The Patriots who could resort to blackmail and coercion, forcing people to live a certain way, or else those subjects are killed.
Oh. Well, unemployment always sucks balls. I speak from experience; I'm still unemployed.
All MGS4's talk about a war economy doesn't sound like a bad idea. I think we currently have one going on currently, with Blackwater Worldwide being the current most powerful PMC in the world.....and yet, we're still in an economic shit-hole. Damn. Dx
The Patriot AI is definitely far more complex than SkyNet. I was going to say something about SkyNet going online around '97 (if I remember correctly), and the Patriot AI being known around this decade or something, and how the technology would be more sophisticated between that time gap (SkyNet = simple, Patriots= complex), then I remembered WHEN Zero might've had the Patriot AI created and that would've made whatever I was thinking useless.
Sadly, I don't think it's ever specified what year Zero creates the AI network. All we know is that Zero commissions the development of the AI network after Big Boss leaves The Patriots (due to having been cloned). He was able to commission the AI's creation because he had, like, billions upon billions of dollars.
In comparison, SkyNet is just an AI created for self-defense. It went rampant when it gained such sentience, exterminating humanity because it perceived humans as threatening.
Acctuly the real Darpa Chief not the one you meet in the cell but the one Ocelot killed on Shadow Moses is Sigint the chill black dude on the radio in MGS3 who talks about guns and camos and such who happened to be a member of the patriots before all the members were killed or disbarred by Zero due to loyalty to Big Boss.
Not saying Zero had them killed but many left the organization after Big Boss and Zero began to have a war over the Boss and her vision for the world. They died when the members who were loyal to big boss began to come after Zero.
Fuck its so hard to understand so The NanoMachines injected in Snake was the FoxDie and in MGS4 snakes starts to die because of it and the nanomachines injected in snake is the same one that was inject to Phyco Mantis am i right?
Not exactly. Naomi developed a whole colony of nanomachines, many of which were designed to enhance Snake's performance in the field. Foxdie was just one part of that nanomachine injecction.
*SPOILER*If you know who major zero is, well he made the patriots and put big boss' body on life support and connected his mind with the 4 parts of the patriots.Big Mama and Ocelot retreived his body and used parts of liquid and solidus to rebuild his body but when they put liquids body parts in him the fox die in liquid's blood was carried over to big bosses body.This why in MGS4 when snake is in the cemetary about to shoot himself big boss stops him.
what i find more interesting, is that the manipulation of events they did in the following years, was the living proof they wanted to make the world an estereotypical happy world (i'm talking about mgs)
kojima made the mgs games too realistic, mgs4 was about war economy, and as a creepy coincidence, here in the real world, economics are going pretty bad, i repeat, that's a creepy coincidence
i wonder if any of you played again mgs1, i did and i started to understand more mgs2
Well, let's see... I first played it back in 2002 (although it's not mentioned, this is from the XBox version of Substance), and I was 18 then. I wasn't really confused, but it didn't really sink in either. Only late last year I ran into part of the video again, then it kicked in, and I was 23 then. A lot of things change between those years.
Overall I think it's difficult to understand without really stepping into the real world, getting a real job or keeping current with world events.
The existence of the Patriots was easy to understand, perhaps too easy, but the comparisons to real life such as criminals rights, individuality and responsibility, it only kicked in recently. And that's what makes the message that much stronger. And the fact that Hideo got that across without bringing up certain events or pointing fingers, that's something.
ahh i see cool i've played this game so many times over and over again and im still trying to understand the meaning of this whole conversation im 18 right now so maybe when im older ill get it more. oh and i was wondering about this, did they change the dialog in this conversation from the ps2 version to substance? cause im not sure but to me it seems like they added some more to it did they?
I know it's easy to think you know a lot when you're 18, but you're still in your teens, too. I think until you really learn what kind of people are out there, what goes on in the world and why, put your foot in the ground and encounter the people the Patriots mention, then it all makes perfect sense. Of course, not one person's life experiences are the same. It could take longer if you're sheltered, not that I consider that a bad thing at all.
As for the dialogue, I know the video this is a response to was cut short, and that was downloaded from another website, but I doubt it's longer (unless some PS2 owners can correct me on this). If anything, dialogue was cut from this game; specifically anything that mentioned PS2 controls like R1, L2 and the face buttons since the XBox controller doesn't have those buttons. Other than that, the story should've been unchanged.
Ahhhh ok, well i still got a ways to go then. oh and why JFK for the title what does that mean doese it have anythhing to do with MGS4 if it does than dont tell me i still havent finished it since i lack a PS3 but whats with the name???? i was wondering what it was when i came across it last night but it was this conversation i remember this game started to scare me a little back when i first played it the colonel's codec call were freaky haha
JFK is the name of the AI that's talking to Raiden. At least that's what it was called in the Document of MGS2, and that's what I'm going by.
In MGS4, however, it was retconned and renamed JD, standing for John Doe. It leads the other Patriot AIs: GW, TJ, TR, and AL; the initials of the presidents on Mount Rushmore.
I was 16 when I first witnessed this conversation. There were times when I would go back to listen to it over and over again. It's disturbing, and has the potential to change a person's life, or at least his outlook, assuming that person is open-minded. At the very least, the whole conversation is food for thought; that's what my mom said when I showed this to her (yes, yes; I showed my own mother this sequence xD ).
"Terrorism is just a word to make you scared so they do whatever they want."
Ladies and gentlemen, proof of an idiot Kool-Aid drinking tool who listens to things and believes them without thought. How about you tell that to people who have migrated to the states from war-torn countries or those fighting in them? Or how about other countries who are also battling terrorism in that region of the world? It's not just America and her allies fighting it, you twit.
Thank you. Americans in particular are oblivious to the objective views of other countries. And even worse, while Americans rant about how awful they have it here, they fail to realize that some countries to live in are much worse in terms of social condition. And I speak from experience; I've seen things in South America and Mexico that you, my fellow Americans, wouldn't believe. I was very young then, but I remember how it felt.
You're absolutely right. Throughout my life I've told myself that no matter how bad a day is and how rough life seems to be from work or school, there are people out there in third world who are suffering worse, will always have it worse and never know what it's like to have the same freedom we do. It really disgusts me to know there are people around me who take their freedom for granted and act as if they have all the world's answers when they haven't seen poverty up close and personal.
That should say "third world countries". But even then I've always found myself exposed in some way or form of people living harsher lives in worse conditions, and unlike America where you could be born in the slums and grow up to be a successful businessman, there are places in the world where people will never have that luxury in their lives. Heck, some people manage to live contently with that. I agree with you that Americans in these times are completely blind to this fact. Especially now.
Y'know, I really don't understand why you have to fight Solidus. He wants to take out the Patriots and I'm all for that! I'm with Solidus here! Why on Earth do I have to fight him, then? Raiden doesn't seem to be too big a fan of the Patriots either, so why not combine efforts?
Just finished my second play through the game tonight. Wasn't creepy as the first time, over a year ago, and since I knew what to expect (total weirdness) I could focus more on what was being said. Fascinating and extremely relevant... but, still, at the end of the day I want to be the one who gets to wade through the crap on the Internet and decide what's important.
Wow, I played MGS4 when it first came out and I was 11. And haven't played it since past roughly half way through the plant chapter cause I don't like replaying games especially older ones. And now that I watch this, I wonder what everyone is so confused about with the Patriots? It all seems pretty clear to me what Arsenal Gear was for and the entire Plant Chapter mission. People always talk about all the plot holes in MGS, but really it feels just like a few odd ends that need to be tired off.
The La Li Lu Le Lo was the original name for the Philosophers, but Zero adopted that "codename" when he created the Patriots. People working for the Patriots can't say "Patriot", so they say La Li Lu Le Lo instead. Except for Drebin. He could say Patriot, but I'm not sure why.
This has been flagged as spam show
They believe evolution is a good thing. To destroy their argument you must attack this belief. It's not difficult.
NewJokerSMILE 1 week ago
Does anyone know if the music playing from 00:00 to 00:30 has a name?
Mufufuf 1 month ago in playlist Metal Gear Solid
Because of this codec, I give this game 8.5 instead of full 9. This codec call is so disturbing and depressing.
Curseco 2 months ago
@Curseco somebody obviously isn't a very good philosopher. I give your comment an 0/5 for a lack of insight and the overall self-insecurity displayed by your reasoning. Someone that is confident in themselves would find this scene interesting rather than disturbing, it is just a game after all.
arkwrestling145 1 month ago
it crushed me to know shadow moses was just a test D:
picklemnstr11 3 months ago
@picklemnstr11No, the events of *this* game were just a test. Shadow Moses was (probably) pretty much real, and the threat posed by Liquid and REX seemed to be genuine. Of course, knowing Kojima, he probably changed his mind about it later :D
Well, not *real* real. It was a game, after all, and this game cleverly comments on the relationship between a game and the player, something MGS4 failed to do... but whatever.
Larrylarp 2 months ago
Um.. can anyone tell how to look for a video of part 0:50 where snake and campbell are talking? i remember seeing that scene in metal gear solid for the ps1 but i can't seem to find it...
Mustadio 3 months ago
@Mustadio If I remember correctly that's the mission briefing, which isn't seen within the main game itself.
SestrenNK 3 months ago
@SestrenNK THANK YOU, it was exactly what i was looking for THUMB UP 4 U SIR!
Mustadio 3 months ago
Also, I think Rose's eyes turn white when JD calls you again halfway through the Solidus battle. I wonder if those convos have been uploaded here, because they contained more info on the subject.
Really interesting stuff. MGS4's retcons and other explanations kinda watered this scene down for me, but it's still very thought provoking... and stuff.
Larrylarp 3 months ago
As much as I would like to believe that I'm qualified to rule myself, decide for myself and think for myself, sometimes I do wonder if the world would actually be better in the control of someone like The Patriots... but then, maybe humans will one day learn how to use their free will for good.
Thanks for sharing this! I love this scene but I don't really have the patience to wade through the more boring parts of MGS2 to get to this.
Larrylarp 3 months ago
@Larrylarp You're welcome. Your comment pretty much sums up what I got out of the whole conversation and why I uploaded it. I personally don't think anyone completely rules themselves 100%, considering in some way or form, we look to others and follow the examples of those around us. Parents for instance.
I haven't uploaded the other relevant conversations on this channel, as I uploaded this mainly for the social commentary and not so much the in-game universe.
SestrenNK 3 months ago
when i watched this i nearly lost my shit, i was like
"sweet fucking christ on a fucking pogo stick"
shit rocked what i knew of MGS
xxdomoxxkunxx 3 months ago
IMHO MGS2 is the closest a video game has come to art.
DigitalAgeGrunt 4 months ago
Sick writing in this game
MyGrassIsGreenest 4 months ago
The funny thing is that this created by man.
Headshotthegame 4 months ago
Their argument is interesting, but not infallible. It's a shame Raiden just sits there and says "Huh? What? What do you mean?"
IWILLEATYOUHEAD 4 months ago
@IWILLEATYOUHEAD
Raiden at the time was busy finding himself and who he truly is after years of being a tool for the Govt. Without Snake, who knows how the "simulation" would have ended.
Too bad MGS3-4 does away with all the lessons Snake and Raiden learned and almost all the mysticism in the series.
Anontalkwarrior 4 months ago
@IWILLEATYOUHEAD
TBF after all this mind fuck has happend hes proboly not thinking straight.
coolsomeXD 3 months ago
KOJIMA DID 9/11
FriedrichAndrew 4 months ago
@FriedrichAndrew And I thought it was Zero the whole time. I am shock.
SestrenNK 4 months ago
@FriedrichAndrew that explains the cut content from metal gear solid 2..
grikuomega 3 months ago
I will never question why Raiden loses his shit after this game again.
robbyalp 4 months ago
Reminds me of football and how coaches always said " dont think just do what we tell you and you'll win"
Cloud1997FF7 4 months ago
@Cloud1997FF7 In football it makes sense. The game is as much an exercise in knowing what your teammates are going to do as it is in athleticism.
dclimez 4 months ago
Wow. This was like a vocal essay. Breathtaking!
hotelmario510 6 months ago
"Rose -- does she actually exist?"
"Of course I do, Jack!
You have to beLIEve me!"
Deep.
ELCNUmorFnaMehT 6 months ago
Our life recours into a system. We Born, we grow, we love, we believe, we reproduce, we diminuish, we die. We all keep doing this. It is foolish to think we break the System. Its the truth. Its what they say. The problem is that they forgot about "we resent". That's the feelings. Reports through-out history mention people that fought and won. They changed their plans. They changed them to befit their need, but that's their plan all along. I only have one last question: Who are they?
SnowSniper98 7 months ago
Very good story line.
Nacluw 8 months ago
here's a detail people here are forgetting: JD, the patriot's AI, is corrupted here, the entire structure of it made a huge miscalculation, their entire way of thinking is part of that same corruption
roler42 9 months ago
when does this codec call occur?
Fr0zen14 9 months ago
@Fr0zen14 Right before the final battle. Codec call, minor cutscene, fight.
SestrenNK 9 months ago
@SestrenNK that's MGS2 in a nutshell
xNotverynicex 4 months ago
the fallens are in control , thats crazy
Amezz55 9 months ago
patriots4lyfe
lostone982 10 months ago
P.S. I just go along with what's on video, not to sell a friggin theory. If this helps, good. If not, nice knowing you guys.
zehawk 10 months ago
What are you trying to say Roy, is it that us people as humans do not deserve to progress because we discovered who we were ment to become, and cover it up like a damn fairy tale?! That's like being in hell, and coming back worse because of our truth being found as a punishment to make that a sin. All that said and done, what's left for life to take as a role if everything we did is all a lie? Tell me just one thing that's not a lie, and I can take it all the way. (Insert response to continue)
zehawk 10 months ago
I think this is being overthought. Whether or not JD can validate that the individual is insecure and uncertain of how to use the sudden freedom given due to the digital age, this does not give anything the right to take away the individual's freedom. JD's priorities lie in assuring society continues to progress as a species, but the priority of others may be freedom before this. Life is nothing without freedom, regardless of where it takes us, so I am glad they manage to stop the Patriots.
phantomstrider8 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
What about Bioshock or AVATAR
tell me your views of it though your video 'Metal Gear Solid 2 - Full JFK/JD Codec Conversation "?
TheMobius999 11 months ago
@TheMobius999 No.
SestrenNK 11 months ago
I like to think an A.I. would be considerably more reliable than human governance. It's a preferable existance, at least IMO.
Fatman311 11 months ago
...because having the power to do something doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of that very act. Free will means simply the "freedom" to decide what to do with your own life and to chose what to think and accept. But because of that, humans become more and more corrupt with that power, because they feel somehow "superior" by that sense of freedom. Just as the AI said:
We haven't got the qualifications to decide for ourselves, simply because we take actions, without studying the outcome
supereldinho 1 year ago
Ya know, partially, the patriots are right; humans should stop abusing their free will to justify all their crimes and all the immorality they do. I completely agree with that, but still, they also try to rob people of their free will by controlling their very thoughts and actions. So basically, one really doesn't know what to decide; to live peacefully without free will, or to live like nowadays, but freely. As for me, humans should really consider the consequences of their own actions...
supereldinho 1 year ago
Wait a second... GW said here that they have proof that damage control is possible even in the most extreme circumstances, yet the Patriots' most valued and trusted man - Ocelot - is the one who leaks the test data for Metal Gear to the entire world. Moreover, after discovering the truth, Raiden is reluctant to follow orders. Is it possible that the entire conversation the Colonel has at the end of the game is completely untrue of the AI network?
ChaosScourge777 1 year ago
seriously it all sounds true in the real world
TheOtaku143110 1 year ago
"It's about respecting the will of others, and believing in your own." - Big Boss
derekxnl 1 year ago
this could of made a good book
Sanders1521 1 year ago
That was one of my favorite lines "Are beloved monsters, enjoy yourselves" gives me the chills every time i hear it
McRip45 1 year ago
@McRip45 i know and it will be fight to the death that part
557011 1 year ago
I remember playing this game some years back and being blown away by this end sequence. In game it's exciting and interesting to think about but when you see these believes being acted upon in the real world it's a bit lame and ridiculous. All this talk of controlling peoples behaviors and actions. Military, espionage and politics... It all seems very childish. I saw someone mentioned the venus project here on the comments. The Venus Project makes sense. Our current system is outdated!
albertohogan 1 year ago
Respond to this video... i know rose is in mgs4 and all that, but i cant be the only 1 that noticed the capital LIE in beLIEve.
darianman567 1 year ago
"Our beloved monsters -- enjoy yourselfs."
for some reason I cant help but think about the world leaders, or politics.
VenomLeon 1 year ago
A system for controlling information and human thought to stimulate the evolution of the species. Well, we'd like mankind to release and focus its collective potential on relevant things. A bit like the goal of the Venus Project in terms of abolishing completely meaningless branches of thought and behaviour to which we are conditioned, the trash that the colonel/AI implies to. We'd need a system because it takes reaching serious self-awareness to do it, and everyone are not capable/willing. ???
kalington 1 year ago
Roy looks like he has body parts chopped off
(Nose and Eyes)
Was he real or was it just a imposter?
trem7469 1 year ago
"Oh really?" Love that line
colm0156 1 year ago
can someone explain to me what the S3 plan really is because i played this game so many times and i still didnt get what they were saying about the S3 plan?
garyoable 1 year ago
I want to leave a message. I hope it useful:
"Between stimulus and response, man has the freedom to choose."
With self awareness, we need not be controlled by our circumstances, or be determined by things like our genes, our parents, or even our environment.
We can be determined by these things, but it is 'our' choice to be so.
If our lives are a function of conditioning and conditions, it is because we have, by concious decision or by default chosen 2 empower these things to control us.
1984Turley 1 year ago
@1984Turley And that is what creates the: I cant do that excuse. We can do whatever the hell we want...if we want it.
thehornypuppy 1 year ago
Hideo Kojima is really the Shakespeare of our time.
kuwerlin 1 year ago
wow he was lied to the whole time like snake was. whew i played this and didnt sleep at all that night!
iwildboy3 1 year ago
@iwildboy3 The main good characters of the story (Snake, Raiden, Otacon, Olga, Grey Fox, Johnny, Meryl, etc.) have all been completely lied to by everyone (the Patriots, their family in some cases, their commanders, the government, etc.). The story is basically seen through the eyes of a pawn on the great battlefield between greater figures. In fact at some point in the story (or rather throughout the whole story) the characters realize that they are just pawns. This is one of those moments.
kuwerlin 1 year ago
the S3 plan is big shell shadowing the Shadow Moses incdient (2005) after the REX development by the US ARMY
scyther821 1 year ago
@scyther821 not really after or about the REX development
scyther821 1 year ago
and too bad they retconned all this out later. poo.
selphiexfairy 1 year ago
i give props to Raiden for even understanding half of that. DDDDDDDDDDDDD:
selphiexfairy 1 year ago
Kojima is too freakin smart. My brain hurts....ow.
Rudyauto 1 year ago
Can you imagine having every one of your flaws picked out and told to you in detail?
merrett 1 year ago
@merrett You just need a mirror...
thehornypuppy 1 year ago
I have never even listened to this before... wow
Fraga1ma 1 year ago
Our beloved monsters -- enjoy yourselves.
podtech115 1 year ago
this is the shit....if only more poeple won this game and took this literally
MindMystic 1 year ago
i always thought this was kind of simplistic
the games are great though
smoekdacheeb 2 years ago
Everytime I see this, my hairs on the back of my neck stand up and I get all tingly lol.
GDWGlos 2 years ago
when the evil person says "believe in me" he says lie in the middle look "beLIEve" thats a big fat lie u cant believe in her
chimera5x2 2 years ago
Gosh, its so scary....
a system built to ultimatley control human context.
Used to control ideologies, religious beliefs, and cultural beliefs.
In a world of the mass media, internet , I can see the point of Kojima's vision....
A system of control by regulating any at all information. Even if what was being erased was half truths and opinions, leaving nothing but the cold hard facts... well that is what Humanity is...half truths and opinions.
We kill for PEACE.
slobergoof 2 years ago
Always loved this part so deep.
greatjellybean 2 years ago
I think this conversation cemented my already deep love for the MGS series.
ForcheAlex 2 years ago
This is such a smart, badass game. Its a shame that no one else tries to make there games thought-provoking like this.
catstomp500 2 years ago
Our beloved Monsters, Enjoy Yourselves!!
creepy!!
najolesor 2 years ago
wow this is my favorite game in yet, i never took time to make of all the thing that are being said in the " enjoy my beloved monster".
Nintendose 2 years ago
Lol, I freaked out with that thing.
KilliKilliPower 2 years ago
i cannot grasp the ture for of this conversation ................ WAIT!!!
booyah344 2 years ago
am i the only one not pissing myself over the "beLIEve me" line by 'Rose'? it's the AI anyways..
WOCEinyourgrill 2 years ago
3:48 Of course I exist Jack !! You HAVE to beLIEve me !! LMFAO I TOTALLY forgot about that shit, fucking bitch wahahahah
mistamontiel 2 years ago
I hope im not the only one that PARTLY agrees with what the patrots are trying to do. I mean someone or something has to put a stop to the "half truths" and immorality that is spread by society and catalyzed by the digital age. But on the other side, who is in favor of an AI filtering and determining what is truth and isnt? Its a very controversial topic -_-
Virgil077 2 years ago
The intentions of such a role are fair, but it's too corruptible, in that it could be set to determine things we don't want in the end.
Think of it like gun control, and the concept of firearm registration. The intentions are fair, but it's corruptible because it could seriously screw over countless other law-abiding gun-owners.
Sorry I couldn't come up with a more original comparison. xD
dave55811 2 years ago
Yea in the end it would only lead to something we dont want. I guess societies immoralities and "half truths" are something we'll just have to live with -_-
Virgil077 2 years ago
Society's half-truths and immoralities are a pain in the ass to deal with in daily living, but for some reason, it seems better than being under the control of some God-like computer. We as humans have the right to determine things as we see fit, but our right also comes with great responsibility. And when it comes to "truth", we must look at both sides and come to our conclusions based on what we learn.
Use your power for the right things, at least the things you believe in.
dave55811 2 years ago
"Use your power for the right things, at least the things you believe in."
Amen to that.
SestrenNK 2 years ago
Personally, I think many of those who truly understand the message (and based on some of the comments here, minus the tinfoils) agree with the original intentions of the Patriots. It's their methods that's another story.
Thinking about it, the AI was likely designed not to become corrupted as a human would if he or she was given that kind of power. This is why I don't believe individuals should decide for themselves what is right or wrong, as they can pick and choose what is and what isn't...
SestrenNK 2 years ago
... to their convenience. It's too easily corruptible if not self-destructive.
And yet, the AI shows an almost human trait in allowing itself to still become corrupted as well. I guess what I'm saying is that humans, given that kind of power, would easily fall subject to corruption. And an AI designed to be superior and look over humans, ends up being corrupted as well.
But the way I see it, if we don't fight against corruption, immorality, deceit, and evil in their various forms, our...
SestrenNK 2 years ago
...society will degenerate into something where something like this might be seen as a necessity and people will become dependant on something other than themselves when they don't want to suffer the consequences or failures of their actions.
So I'm not denying the possibility of this ever happening sometime to the human race. It's kind of fun to think about in a sense. The future, man vs. technology and all that good stuff.
SestrenNK 2 years ago
@SestrenNK thats real talk its kinda scary but needs 2 b adressed
smitty20789 1 year ago
@SestrenNK Even through this an old topic, but what about free will? I like the idea of a reliable leader that is incorruptible.
surshot56 11 months ago
@surshot56 "but what about free will?" Hmm? What about it?
SestrenNK 11 months ago
@SestrenNK We'll do you enjoy your freedom and the ability to do what you want so far as you don't break the law? Is yes, then why would you want a big brother watching every move you make and dictating what you can and cannot do? These computers make a good point, but in the end isn't that the point of evolution? To grow and change over time without the need of sentient being or beings watching over us?
surshot56 11 months ago
@surshot56 "do you enjoy your freedom and the ability to do what you want so far as you don't break the law?"
Yes, although I wouldn't word it as what I "want". More of what I need.
"Is yes, then why would you want a big brother watching every move you make and dictating what you can and cannot do?"
... and when did I ever say this?
"To grow and change over time without the need of sentient being or beings watching over us?"
If all men were saints we would need no rules or laws to govern us.
SestrenNK 11 months ago
@Virgil077 Then youtube should be taken off the internet and dont worry. There are companies already taking control of the internet and they already have us by the balls in terms of lyfestyle...the world is just number on a screen for some people. And that some people just so happen to be our world leaders...ha...
thehornypuppy 1 year ago
"You have to beLIEve me!"
The Rose is a lie
drillcatownz 2 years ago
1:42
"All the others remember what they were, and pay for it daily."
Out of curiosity, is it right that they endure it on a daily basis? Or is it irrelevant to The Patriots in the end? :/
dave55811 3 years ago
LOLZ I NEED SCISSORS 61
steveharley0345 3 years ago
This has to be the freakiest Codec call ever in the MGS series. It really makes me think about how I am, and how my own actions from the past to now have shaped me. I have to admit that I don't quite understand everything brought up in that conversation but some of the content has seeped through.
UNBTFFAN 3 years ago
what campbell is saying could never happen because it doesnt account for the basic human instinct to attain power. The human species is anything but rational.
Moreover, the s3 system could never work because it doesnt allow humans to make mistakes. Without making mistakes, we would never learn and grow. This "context" would turn humans into nonviolent, rational machines.
jfh06d 3 years ago
If the world around you was developed by the S3 system, you couldnt tell between it and reality. You wouldnt be able to seek power if it disallowed it.
And that is the S3's purpose, to 'evolve' humanity beyond its violence and animalistic instincts. Either that, or we become what the patriots want us to.
Fatman311 3 years ago
I hate to admit it, but I thought a little less about the AI in MGS2. As it turns out, the AI was just a network that propagated itself via warfare, automatically adding funds to companies and figures tied to the military-industrial complex, using war as a means of economics. There seems to be a slight contradiction between the truth revealed in MGS4 and this conversation in MGS2.
However, I still find this conversation to be......life-changing.
dave55811 2 years ago
I found myself thinking the same thing. But then again I did upload it for its social value. Still, I found what we learned in MGS4 to somewhat take away from what is said here. But this alone is still really good stuff.
SestrenNK 2 years ago
That whole speech I found to be slightly confusing. Is this AI saying he's trying to protect those who can't tell falsehoods from realism?
Firestorm2900 3 years ago
No. The AI is saying that in the modern day society, thanks to the internet and other technologies, mankind is becoming more flawed, stunting humanities evolution, because so many wrong and biased points are made that other people will believe them, causing a shift in what is true and what isnt. In order to help solve this species wide problem, they plan to use the S3 system to control mankind and help it learn only their truth, so what the AI calls truth is known as the truth.
Fatman311 3 years ago
Or at least, thats the gist of it. The AI plans to control mankind to stop is from devolving socially, and while this is sensible, it means the AI can shape the truth and the times as it sees fit.
Fatman311 3 years ago
Excellent answer.
SestrenNK 3 years ago
Have to admit that it's better than the concept of SkyNet.
Or is it? o.o'
dave55811 2 years ago
Its more intellectual and peaceful, so I like to think so.
Plus it doesnt annihilate the rest of the world or its other creatures living on it as well
Fatman311 2 years ago
The Patriots' determination of one's fate doesn't come into play until nanomachines linked to the system are injected into people, though. When that happens, then life becomes an Orwellian wet-dream, where so much as thinking something could determine your fate in accordance to the computer's logic and protocols. And of course there are agents of The Patriots who could resort to blackmail and coercion, forcing people to live a certain way, or else those subjects are killed.
dave55811 2 years ago
I cant really comment, the concept of a world controlled by a system of absolute order and control is a bit too advanced for me to consider.
God, I need to play MGS4.
Fatman311 2 years ago
If you can get your hands on it, play it. But be careful of MGO; it's addicting. o.o'
dave55811 2 years ago
I lack a PS3, and a job to acquire a PS3.
Searching for the latter, damn this economic crisis.
Fatman311 2 years ago
Oh. Well, unemployment always sucks balls. I speak from experience; I'm still unemployed.
All MGS4's talk about a war economy doesn't sound like a bad idea. I think we currently have one going on currently, with Blackwater Worldwide being the current most powerful PMC in the world.....and yet, we're still in an economic shit-hole. Damn. Dx
dave55811 2 years ago
lol yeah, a war economy would work, provided the wars didnt take place anywhere near me
Fatman311 2 years ago
Oh, right. :/ And while war is good business, the picture obviously isn't pretty.
dave55811 2 years ago
The Patriot AI is definitely far more complex than SkyNet. I was going to say something about SkyNet going online around '97 (if I remember correctly), and the Patriot AI being known around this decade or something, and how the technology would be more sophisticated between that time gap (SkyNet = simple, Patriots= complex), then I remembered WHEN Zero might've had the Patriot AI created and that would've made whatever I was thinking useless.
SestrenNK 2 years ago
Sadly, I don't think it's ever specified what year Zero creates the AI network. All we know is that Zero commissions the development of the AI network after Big Boss leaves The Patriots (due to having been cloned). He was able to commission the AI's creation because he had, like, billions upon billions of dollars.
In comparison, SkyNet is just an AI created for self-defense. It went rampant when it gained such sentience, exterminating humanity because it perceived humans as threatening.
dave55811 2 years ago
darpa chief was actuly decoy octopys
kurush117k 3 years ago
*Spoilers
Acctuly the real Darpa Chief not the one you meet in the cell but the one Ocelot killed on Shadow Moses is Sigint the chill black dude on the radio in MGS3 who talks about guns and camos and such who happened to be a member of the patriots before all the members were killed or disbarred by Zero due to loyalty to Big Boss.
antiHJB 3 years ago
Spolier one more time*
Not saying Zero had them killed but many left the organization after Big Boss and Zero began to have a war over the Boss and her vision for the world. They died when the members who were loyal to big boss began to come after Zero.
antiHJB 3 years ago
Fuck its so hard to understand so The NanoMachines injected in Snake was the FoxDie and in MGS4 snakes starts to die because of it and the nanomachines injected in snake is the same one that was inject to Phyco Mantis am i right?
ZenNeonRazor 3 years ago
Not exactly. Naomi developed a whole colony of nanomachines, many of which were designed to enhance Snake's performance in the field. Foxdie was just one part of that nanomachine injecction.
BeastOfMetal1989 3 years ago
Yes, because Foxdie was part of that nanomachine injection.
BeastOfMetal1989 3 years ago
they did just to recreate shadow moses jsut to be brief
snake saved the president of arms tech
raiden saved the president of the US
both presidents died that along with the rest of the big shell incident was made up by the patriots what dey didn't plan was haivng snake there
roler42 3 years ago
*SPOILER*If you know who major zero is, well he made the patriots and put big boss' body on life support and connected his mind with the 4 parts of the patriots.Big Mama and Ocelot retreived his body and used parts of liquid and solidus to rebuild his body but when they put liquids body parts in him the fox die in liquid's blood was carried over to big bosses body.This why in MGS4 when snake is in the cemetary about to shoot himself big boss stops him.
flaminanuses 3 years ago
LOL
makes NO fucking sense.
And its weird cos ive played the rest of the MGS games, and those were all also batshit crazy
Fatman311 3 years ago
Flaminanuses is telling the truth. it may sound crazy, but thats Kojimas genious storytelling
MattMatsuda123 3 years ago
what i find more interesting, is that the manipulation of events they did in the following years, was the living proof they wanted to make the world an estereotypical happy world (i'm talking about mgs)
kojima made the mgs games too realistic, mgs4 was about war economy, and as a creepy coincidence, here in the real world, economics are going pretty bad, i repeat, that's a creepy coincidence
i wonder if any of you played again mgs1, i did and i started to understand more mgs2
roler42 3 years ago
So how old were when you understood all this???
JUJUBEAN88 3 years ago
Well, let's see... I first played it back in 2002 (although it's not mentioned, this is from the XBox version of Substance), and I was 18 then. I wasn't really confused, but it didn't really sink in either. Only late last year I ran into part of the video again, then it kicked in, and I was 23 then. A lot of things change between those years.
Overall I think it's difficult to understand without really stepping into the real world, getting a real job or keeping current with world events.
SestrenNK 3 years ago
The existence of the Patriots was easy to understand, perhaps too easy, but the comparisons to real life such as criminals rights, individuality and responsibility, it only kicked in recently. And that's what makes the message that much stronger. And the fact that Hideo got that across without bringing up certain events or pointing fingers, that's something.
SestrenNK 3 years ago
ahh i see cool i've played this game so many times over and over again and im still trying to understand the meaning of this whole conversation im 18 right now so maybe when im older ill get it more. oh and i was wondering about this, did they change the dialog in this conversation from the ps2 version to substance? cause im not sure but to me it seems like they added some more to it did they?
JUJUBEAN88 3 years ago
I know it's easy to think you know a lot when you're 18, but you're still in your teens, too. I think until you really learn what kind of people are out there, what goes on in the world and why, put your foot in the ground and encounter the people the Patriots mention, then it all makes perfect sense. Of course, not one person's life experiences are the same. It could take longer if you're sheltered, not that I consider that a bad thing at all.
SestrenNK 3 years ago
As for the dialogue, I know the video this is a response to was cut short, and that was downloaded from another website, but I doubt it's longer (unless some PS2 owners can correct me on this). If anything, dialogue was cut from this game; specifically anything that mentioned PS2 controls like R1, L2 and the face buttons since the XBox controller doesn't have those buttons. Other than that, the story should've been unchanged.
SestrenNK 3 years ago
Ahhhh ok, well i still got a ways to go then. oh and why JFK for the title what does that mean doese it have anythhing to do with MGS4 if it does than dont tell me i still havent finished it since i lack a PS3 but whats with the name???? i was wondering what it was when i came across it last night but it was this conversation i remember this game started to scare me a little back when i first played it the colonel's codec call were freaky haha
JUJUBEAN88 3 years ago
JFK is the name of the AI that's talking to Raiden. At least that's what it was called in the Document of MGS2, and that's what I'm going by.
In MGS4, however, it was retconned and renamed JD, standing for John Doe. It leads the other Patriot AIs: GW, TJ, TR, and AL; the initials of the presidents on Mount Rushmore.
SestrenNK 3 years ago
ahh ok thanks for responding to all these comments. god i love Hideo Kojima!!!! this is such a great game!
JUJUBEAN88 3 years ago
I was 16 when I first witnessed this conversation. There were times when I would go back to listen to it over and over again. It's disturbing, and has the potential to change a person's life, or at least his outlook, assuming that person is open-minded. At the very least, the whole conversation is food for thought; that's what my mom said when I showed this to her (yes, yes; I showed my own mother this sequence xD ).
dave55811 2 years ago
"Terrorism is just a word to make you scared so they do whatever they want."
Ladies and gentlemen, proof of an idiot Kool-Aid drinking tool who listens to things and believes them without thought. How about you tell that to people who have migrated to the states from war-torn countries or those fighting in them? Or how about other countries who are also battling terrorism in that region of the world? It's not just America and her allies fighting it, you twit.
SestrenNK 3 years ago
Thank you. Americans in particular are oblivious to the objective views of other countries. And even worse, while Americans rant about how awful they have it here, they fail to realize that some countries to live in are much worse in terms of social condition. And I speak from experience; I've seen things in South America and Mexico that you, my fellow Americans, wouldn't believe. I was very young then, but I remember how it felt.
dave55811 2 years ago
You're absolutely right. Throughout my life I've told myself that no matter how bad a day is and how rough life seems to be from work or school, there are people out there in third world who are suffering worse, will always have it worse and never know what it's like to have the same freedom we do. It really disgusts me to know there are people around me who take their freedom for granted and act as if they have all the world's answers when they haven't seen poverty up close and personal.
SestrenNK 2 years ago
That should say "third world countries". But even then I've always found myself exposed in some way or form of people living harsher lives in worse conditions, and unlike America where you could be born in the slums and grow up to be a successful businessman, there are places in the world where people will never have that luxury in their lives. Heck, some people manage to live contently with that. I agree with you that Americans in these times are completely blind to this fact. Especially now.
SestrenNK 2 years ago
Michael Moore is a liar, don't trust him. Watch the movie "Manufacturing dissent" and you might learn something.
darthrevan6 3 years ago
some people don't deserve the right to free speech
nitrohedgehog 3 years ago
I always got confused with Rose at the part where the AI goes "You have to beLIEve me".
That made the whole thing a mindf*ck for me on my first playthrough.
Wilkopops 3 years ago
OMG!!! "Raiden, you have to beLIEve me!"
???
TomGal1240 3 years ago
O.o
These two videos = MIND. F**K.
I was all like, WTF IZ THS WOMG I CANT UNDERSTAND.
DaRemixBoi 3 years ago
holy fuking shit! 4:18
gungwat 3 years ago
What are you taking about!?
What they are taking is controlling humans!
There taking about controlling what we watch,eat ,and do!
And they call it "protecting the masses"
that is the biggest piece of bull shit i have ever heard in my life!!
gohanRULEZ 3 years ago
When 'Rose' says 'you have to beLIEve me' it says LIE in believe.
mister69moko 3 years ago
Dude, I don't get it, not even a bit, isn't that mean I'm stupid? But seriously,whuaa?
scion1337 3 years ago
yes, be you am a stupey.
grammar be not so good, for you no card read good.
IT'S CURNS STUPID!
tjbenji 3 years ago
So it was the AI's communicating through the image of Campell and Rosemary to Raiden?
plus, holy crap that was freaky with roses eyes....
Spartanz1170 3 years ago
Y'know, I really don't understand why you have to fight Solidus. He wants to take out the Patriots and I'm all for that! I'm with Solidus here! Why on Earth do I have to fight him, then? Raiden doesn't seem to be too big a fan of the Patriots either, so why not combine efforts?
TheMarioBros 3 years ago
Maybe because he's the one trying to kill you?
SestrenNK 3 years ago
It's what we need...a La Li Lu Le Lo...
KissMeImPunk 3 years ago
Cattle? Getting urge to make bad GEKKOs joke...
Just finished my second play through the game tonight. Wasn't creepy as the first time, over a year ago, and since I knew what to expect (total weirdness) I could focus more on what was being said. Fascinating and extremely relevant... but, still, at the end of the day I want to be the one who gets to wade through the crap on the Internet and decide what's important.
Reichu 3 years ago
Hideo predicted the future. This is all true. Right down to recreating the past. We are all cattle!
Tebor2 3 years ago
At least he's not a Freemason.
KissMeImPunk 3 years ago
This game is pure genius. Hideo thought out EVERY single detail in his series.
chris37363 3 years ago
MGS SERIES RULES!!!! LUVIN MGS4!!!!
alirocker08 3 years ago
beLIEve me. Get it? LIE? Get it?
Great game.
Smann54 3 years ago
yo-yah dood i caught that
H3llian667 3 years ago
La li lu le lo! LA LI LU LE LO! Please?
kingtom 3 years ago
Wow, I played MGS4 when it first came out and I was 11. And haven't played it since past roughly half way through the plant chapter cause I don't like replaying games especially older ones. And now that I watch this, I wonder what everyone is so confused about with the Patriots? It all seems pretty clear to me what Arsenal Gear was for and the entire Plant Chapter mission. People always talk about all the plot holes in MGS, but really it feels just like a few odd ends that need to be tired off.
ERGLupin 3 years ago
Eh.... This game is MGS2... Not MGS4, dummy :P
Erhm. The Patriots are truly deep. After MGS4 (the 'real' one released 'yesterday') you relise what the patriots are.
jerrylionheart 3 years ago
OMG I WANNA KNOW!!!!! :O
Neigeblackswan 3 years ago
I can send you a message?
jerrylionheart 3 years ago
..Who is the true La Li Lu Le Lo? Weren't they the AI, while the real La Li Lu Le Lo were dead over hundreds of years ago? Tell me damnit!
KissMeImPunk 3 years ago
do u really wanna no? cuz wat i will tell u is a huge spoiler. i mean huge!!
kelphelp 3 years ago
*SPOILER*
The La Li Lu Le Lo was the original name for the Philosophers, but Zero adopted that "codename" when he created the Patriots. People working for the Patriots can't say "Patriot", so they say La Li Lu Le Lo instead. Except for Drebin. He could say Patriot, but I'm not sure why.
Short answer: La Li Lu Le Lo = Patriots
TheMarioBros 3 years ago
listen to what he says in the end if u dont get it reply and ask
kjoana 3 years ago
If you people don't understand this by now you only got a week left before Metal Gear Solid 4, get ready people...........
SimpleParadox08 3 years ago