Thai buddhism is declining cos monk's role can't improve morality in Thai. Why? simply cos in Thai, there's lack of bhikkhunisangha. 2004 Thai govn't set up 'Center for the Promotion of National Strength on Moral Ethics and Values' assist to promote morality. 2005 and after several years, they went to Taiwan Tzu Chi for studying. The foundation of Tzu Chi is a bhikkhuni, Master Cheng Yen and bhikkhunisanghan. Once there is great Thai bhikkhuni, that bhikkhuni can drive many people to do good.
Buddhist are humans. Can they get sick, disease, alzheimers, or dementia? Than they have limitations. Don't put them on such a high god-like plateau. Many monks are striving to be the best they can be, and pass this positive life on to you. Others may be rogue, and their interest for their own personal goals. But stay positive. Also, a President of a Buddhist society of monks is like putting an Orangutan in charge of Humans. Whose welfare does he serve?
Bhikkuni has its origin way back to the the time of the Buddha, and any attempt to restrict or impede their ordinations today, I believe, is contrary and inconsistent with his general teachings. I use the word general because a great deal of it was written down long after his death. Misogynistic behaviors is so un-enlightened and reflect the cultural barnacles that we have to put up with. BTW, bickering among the monks is nothing new. During the time of the Buddha, this also has been recorded.
it seems the European tradition of Enlightenment makes good European Buddhist martyrs... :) - like veracious monks, emancipated nuns, unfound tulkus...
I'm still confused. Why are women not allowed to ordain in Australia? Maybe in Thailand it's not practical for some reason but in Aus there is a big thing about gender equality. Why would ajahn chah objec to this happening in a county like Australia?
Obviously angry monks are not enlighten. Anger comes within and as monks, they should investigate that. The Buddha gave the tool (meditation) so use it. Feel hurt? Will, that's your hurt. Investigate that as well. Why do the monks want gratitude? Is it an ego building exercise? Don't chant the path. Walk it.
Dear Barbara, ehipasiko is a pseudo buddhist. I can read those words between the lines. Do not be trap by his/her innocence defending Thai buddhists. Thai Buddhists love and respect Ajahn Brhamavamso very much.
It is truly sad that such bigotry and even outright hatred can exist even among Theravadan Buddhist monks. I guess wherever there is organized religion, this is inevitable...?
I'm relatively uneducated, but it seems that Thailand's sex industry brings millions of western dollars into the Thai economy. If they can be prostitutes why can't they be nuns?
This is why as a South Asian Buddhist, I NO LONGER donate ANYTHING to dumb Buddhist monks in South Asia. I myself is South Asian and Buddhist core values are AGAINST the strict structural systems such as those of idiot monks in Theravada Buddhism. I practice Buddhism, but I am against dumb monks from South Asia. The whole point of I don't like religions like Catholicism with Pope as head is NOT to have anyone control Buddhism at the the first place.
Finally!!! Remind those who do not support that this is the year 2011!!! I'm a loyal listener and occasional supporter in Canada. Ajahn Brahm has a loyal listener base her in Vancouver Canada. He is the wisest voice I have found and hope he continues to teach for many many many many many many many more years to come. I am very in favour of the decision to ordain this nun. Congratulations on your courage to be the leader in change that is most appropriate for the time we are living in today. All
The bhikkhuni ordination resistence in Thailand purely related to Thai culture. Ajahn Chah was not one who supported female ordination in Thailand. For his own sake, it is best this "Australian" educate himself & refrain from making unsubstantiated allegations of "anger" and "ill-will" about monks. If this video was not sad, it would be amusing. Let go! Let go! Please mutually separate with the spirit of good-will & understanding of differences.
@BarbarraBay A big part of Buddhism is to speak the inconvenient truth. It's simply fallacious to claim that the Theravada nun lineage was severed and this lie is the only argument Thai folks have against bhikkhuni ordination. I've been to Thailand a number of times and I've see how unordained nuns live and it's repugnant. It's an autocratic patriarchal system that wrongly subjugates women and I'm glad that they're taking a stand for truth. Brahm is on the right side of history.
@ehipassiko I have also been to Thailand a number of times. Once lived in a bamboo shelter in a forest monastery any creature could crawl into. My drinking water came off the thatched roof into a clay jar. In a practise monastery, the folks live "low" & do all kinds of menial work. It is not about luxuries and privileges. However, this is primarily unrelated to the issue. In Thailand, both men & women are in the monastery for all sorts of reasons, the minority being for serious practice.
I guess that's the nature of samsara. You can't expect politicians and businesspeople—whether they wear robes or not—to support the Dhamma. They will always act based on greed, hatred, and delusion. If they were arahats, they wouldn't be running international organizations, trying to control what others think or do. All we can really do is make sure we don't waste too much time trying to learn about enlightenment from the obviously unenlightened.
Listening to Mr. Sheppard read his statement, I am reminded of a story Ajahn Brahm tells of the hated donkey who fell into the ditch and whose owner - instead of helping him out - covered him with shovel after shovel of dirt to get rid of him. In Ajahn Brahm's story, the donkey shook off each shovelful of dirt, stamped it into the ground, and continued doing so until he was high enough to free himself and walk away......
May the monks at Wat Pa Pong hear you with an open heart!
Ajahn Brahm and his teachings have become a great blessing in my life - he has added immensely to my understanding of Buddhism, and I support him now -
@BarbarraBay Ajahn Chah was ignorant of the the fact that the Theravada bhikkhuni lineage survived into the modern era before he died. Just because Ajahn Chah didn't have that knowledge doesn't mean that we shouldn't support Theravada bhikkhuni ordination now that the Theravada bhikkhuni lineage has been proven to exist.
@ehipassiko Sure. Ajahn Chah was "ignorant". As though you would know the mind of Ajahn Chah? Best one practises Dhamma rather than speak unsubstantiated words. The Buddha clearly said speaking that which one does not know to be true is false speech. Ajahn Brahm speaks of Ajahn Chah's "powers". If Ajahn Brahm speaks what is true, then Ajahn Chah was not ignorant of these things. But if what you say is true, then Ajahn Brahm speaks falsely.
@BarbarraBay You're arguing that it's unreasonable to conclude that Ajahn Chah didn't know about the Theravada bhikkhuni lineage that was substantiated after his death. You're literally demanding that we prove what a dead man knew before drawing reasoned conclusions based on known facts. This is known as an appeal to ignorance fallacy. You then went on to make an appeal to authority. Please address my argument honestly. Thanks!
@ehipassiko I told you. You do not know the mind of Ajahn. I do not know the mind of Ajahn Chah. Your opinion is mere speculation. It has no basis in reality. However, the recorded facts say Ajahn Chah said the conditions for women's practise should be "good enough". That is all. The conditions for practise are merely fourfold, namely, food (one or two meals before noon), clothing, shelter & medicine. That's it! As for practise, Ajahn Chah said this is to realise emptiness or ultimate truth
@BarbarraBay Do you really not see how sticking with an appeal to ignorance fallacy as an argument isn't useful? Your premise is that we cannot use known facts to make reasoned statements. Ajahn Chah died before it became known that there was a valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage. You're literally claiming that it's unreasonable to deduce that he didn't know about the valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage before it was discovered. Your argument is fallacious. Please address my premise honestly.
@ehipassiko As for practise, Ajahn Chah said this is to realise emptiness or ultimate truth. In ultimate truth, Ajahn Chah said there is not such thing as "monk", "nun", "layperson", "man", "woman", etc. These labels are merely conventions but they are not ultimate truth. The order of monks provides are vehicle to preserve the teachings but ordaining does not intrinsically provide a vehicle for enlightenment. To think so is delusion. Many people ordain and then disrobe.
@ehipassiko As I said initially, most of the thousands of men ordained in Thailand are so due to many cultural, economic, superstitious & moral reasons that are unrelated to practise for enlightenment. As one example, every Thai man once in his life becomes are monk for 3 months to learn about morals & how to be a good husband. The Thai culture does not need a female version of this. Such things have overloaded the Thai monastic system. It cannot cope with the addition of women to it.
@ehipassiko this Thai monastic system, that is overloaded, difficult to manage, that has tens of thousands, at times hundreds of thousands of monks in it, must be economically supported, yet it mostly serves a cultural & religious (superstitious) purpose. That women begin to use such a system for superstitious purposes would make it more difficult & close to impossible. You need to educate yourself rather than shooting emotion opinions off the hip, like the Aussie in the video
@BarbarraBay Claiming that the reason my opinion differs from yours is that I don't understand the Thai system seems a bit hubris to me. How would you happen to know how long I spent in Thailand? Again, my premise is this: Arguing against bhikkhuni ordination on the basis that Ajahn Chah didn't approve of it is an appeal to authority fallacy and is especially fallacious since he died before a valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage was discovered.
@ehipassiko I have already spoken Ajahn Chah's view. Ajahn Chah as an enlightened being understood Thai society and as a monk held the appropriate view for what is most beneficial for the Thai society at large. For Ajahn Brahm, as a Westerner, to lecture the Thai people, is simply moronic & grossly disrespectful. Such opinions are uninformed, misplaced & misguided. As I said, they are classic example of Western cultural imperialism & arrogance.
@ehipassiko You to not appear to be a nun. There are very few bhikkhunis in the world dedicated to enlightenment. The Thai sangha & Thai society at large do not want to introduce female ordination into their society. I have pointed out many valid reasons for this. Yet there are Thai women who are bhikkhunis. Women wishing to ordain have sufficient means to do so. Any motivated female practitioner has ample means to pursue the Buddhist path. This whole debate disrespects Thai society.
@ehipassiko It does not matter how long you spent in Thailand. The evidence presented in your reasonings shows your mind has not perceived the reality of Thai culture & especially the INTRINSIC role of family values & gender roles & how these are nurtured. You believe you are being open minded but the truth is you are being narrow minded. Your mind is blinded by its own rigid opinions about "gender equality" that have arisen in respect to another culture.
@BarbarraBay Another red herring. Here's my premise for the 4th time: Arguing against bhikkhuni ordination on the basis that Ajahn Chah didn't approve of it is an appeal to authority fallacy and is especially fallacious since he died before a valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage was discovered.
@ehipassiko So to educate yourself, simply start with Wikipedia 'Buddhism in Thailand'. It states, for example, "Temporary ordination is the norm among Thai Buddhists. Young men in Thailand who have undergone ordination are seen as being more suitable partners for marriage; unordained men are euphemistically called 'raw', while those who have been ordained are said to be 'cooked'. A period as a monk is a prerequisite for many positions of leadership within the village hierarchy."
@ehipassiko As shown in Wikipedia, it is Thai women that wish to ensure their sons & prospective husbands be good husbands. The ordinary Thai woman has a very strong sense of morality & her maternal needs thus wants a husband who has been trained in morals & who respects elder monks (who can later counsel him when married). Thai women want men to go thru monastic training for the purpose of helping good marriages but obviously & correctly do not see a need for women to do this.
@ehipassiko To end, whilst your home page shows you to be an activist for various gender issues, which may be worthy cause, & whilst I enjoyed listening to Ziggy Stardust again, your activism in the relation to the bhikkhuni matter in respect to Thai society is uninformed, misplaced & misguided. It is a classic example of Western cultural imperialism & arrogance. Thai & Western cultures have the opposite gender dynamics. All the best.
@BarbarraBay Again, you've sidestepped dealing with my premise with yet another fallacious argument. This time you've used a red herring. Here's my premise for the 3rd time: Arguing against bhikkhuni ordination on the basis that Ajahn Chah didn't approve of it is an appeal to authority fallacy and is especially fallacious since he died before a valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage was discovered.
@ehipassiko My view is not fallacious. There has been no recent discovery of a Theravada bhikkhuni lineage. It has always been known the Mahayana lineage was born from the former Theravada lineage. But the Thai Sangha chooses to not recognise this. Why? Because, as I said, repeatedly, the Thai monastic system has evolved into something much more than a meditation system. The monastic system is now something cultural. So the Thais will always block it by not recognising the Mayanana nuns.
@BarbarraBay "My view is not fallacious. There has been no recent discovery of a Theravada bhikkhuni lineage." Okay. At this point I have to call BS. You claim that your statements are not fallacious and in the very next sentence you make a claim that's demonstrably wrong. Either you're ignorant about some important facts or obtuse. There is an unbroken Theravada - NOT Mahayana - bhikkhuni lineage.
@ehipassiko Please. There is no unbroken Theravada lineage. There was the original Theravada lineage which later ordained bhikkhunis in the Mahayana schools. Then the Theravada lineage ended but the Mahayana bhikkhuni lineage continued. Thus in recent years, the first Theravada bhikkhunis received their ordination through the Mahayana bhikkhunis (in either Hong Kong or Taiwan).
@ehipassiko Again, the Wikipedia can serve as a means of education. In the topic of "Bhikkhuni", it states: "The only transmission line of ordination that still exists is the Dharmagupta transmission line, which allows the ordination of nuns in China, Taiwan, Korea and Vietnam."
@BarbarraBay Using Wiki as your main source of info is dubious at best. Catherine de Alvis (who became Bhukkuni Sudharmachari) ordained as a Theravada Bhukkuni in 1905 by taking linage from Burma. On top of that Theravada Bhikkhunis gave ordination to 300 Chinese women in 433 CE. That Bhukkuni linage was returned to Sri Lanka in 1988.
@ehipassiko Two sources: (1) For hundreds of years Sri Lanka did not have women ordained until 1905 when
Catherine de Alvis initiated the ten-precept nuns having taken the lineage from Burma. It was not until 1988 that the first group of Sri Lankan ten-precept nuns received full ordination from the Chinese lineage in L.A.
@BarbarraBay Yes, the so-called "Chinese lineage" IS the Theravada Bhikkhuni lineage from 433 CE. Even if the transmission of the Bhikkhuni lineage to Nanking never happened, did the Buddha not say "Bhikkhus, I allow bhikkhus to ordain bhikkhunis"? Either the linage can be clearly traced or it can't. If it can, then linage exists. If it can't (which it can) the Buddha explicitly gives permission to bhikkhus to ordain bhikkhunis. So, what's the problem (other than Sangha Act)?
@ehipassiko Traditionally, Theravada does not recognise anything Mahayana. In their eyes, Mahayana was a "schism". However, nothing we have discussed diminishes the utter absurdity of this imbicilic Australian moron in the video. Contrary, to what he said, the Thai people & monks do not have "ill-will", "anger" or "sexism". The Thai monastic system is simply not designed for women. I told you already, if Thai monasticism was only for dedicated meditation then there would be no Thai resistence.
@BarbarraBay Yes, the first line of the Sangha Act makes it very clear that monastic life is for men only in Thailand. In the rest of the world, that is known as sexism. Clearly women want to live the ordained life in Thailand, but they are barred... even when there are 100s of Theravada Bhikkhuni right now throughout the world. There exists a very clear Theravada Bhikkhuni leniage and the Buddha states that monks can ordain nuns. What's the issue, other than a Thai laws written by men for men?
@ehipassiko Being simply "a job", the bhikkhuni issue has the same relevence as the Western fight for equal opportunities in the work place. There is nothing spiritual about it. It is simply the fight to give women the right to earn money & secular power from Buddhism. That is all. This whole affair has nothing to with enlightenment or spiritual practise. It is just spiritual materialism. These realities are not grounds to stop female ordination. But they just characterise its trivialness.
@ehipassiko I have already explainted to you the traditional Thai gender role models & how the universal ordination of men supports Thai family values. That women ordain in the West, for example, is fine. I have no disagreement because the Western monastic system is pure, that is, being something both small & devoted solely to meditation practise, study & teaching. But I have explained to you in Thailand it is different. So stop your Western imperialism commenting on Thai law.
If you have no problem with women ordaining in the west what's your problem with the BSWA? All they want is the right to do things their way, according to their conscience and their interpretation of the vinaya; and to be able to retain friendly links with people who have been their friends in the past. Instead the Wat Pah Pong people seem to be demanding that all the monks associated with them refuse to visit or talk to the BSWA people, which seems petty and hateful.
@ehipassiko How can you regard yourself to be Buddhist (with the name "Ehipassiko") when you work in the manner of a Western imperialist, similar to a colonialist or a Christian missionary, to think you can dictate to Thai people about Thai law? Ajahn Brahm was born from Thai Buddhism. I myself am 100% indebted to Thai Buddhism for my spiritual life. Your posts are disrespectful & the behaviour of Brahm's followers is ungrateful. This ingratitude is why the Thai monks trashed Ajahn Brahm
@ehipassiko To Thais, there is nothing worse, barbaric, ignorant, uncultured & moronic that being ungrateful. The Ajahn Chah monks trashed & ridiculed Ajahn Brahm for his lack of gratitude. The Buddha taught the most basic level of right understanding (samma ditthi) is gratitude; to understand our life has benefactors. Ajahn Brahm was expelled from his Thai tradition, which his fine. Ajahn Brahm & this followers should simply carry on with their own affairs & stay out of Thai affairs
If the Thai monastic system is not designed for women then why should it not change? Women are half of the human population after all. If monasticism has something very valuable to offer, then why should it not be open to all humans??
@ehipassiko To end, you have disregarded everything I have said about Thai culture so you can continue your obsessed Western imperialistic crusade. Try to recognise the reality of Thai society & the role monasticism plays in it. The Buddha said a wise person has seven qualities, which includes understanding other societies. If you understood the reality of ENLIGHTENMENT, you would understand this matter is essentially unimportant. To ordain offers secular status, that is all.
@BarbarraBay What reason can you give me that would make me conclude that you know more about Thai women than the Thai women I know? What reason can you give me that would make me conclude that you know more about Theravada Bhikkhuni than the Theravada Bhikkhuni I know? Having an opinion is one thing, thinking that your opinion can't be any less than the best is what is known as hubris. Also, IMHO playing the "Western imperialism" card is lame.
@ehipassiko I am not "playing" any card. There is no "hubis". I reiterate for a last time, your behaviour & opinions are of a cultural imperialist. Your incapacity to see that is fatal. Enjoyed the chat & enjoyed Ziggy Stardust (oooh yeah). Bye
@ehipassiko In the world today there are many enlightened liberated beings who are laypeople. Ordaining simply provides an economically supported environment for dedicated practitioners. It also provides the ideal sphere for those who wish to dedicate their lives to propaganting (teaching) Buddhism. Apart from that, it does not guarantee enlightenment. Buddhist monasticism is the social relationship where monks & nuns give teachings in return for their material needs. It is simply "a job".
@ehipassiko (2) Miss Catherine de Alwis who went to Burma and got ordained there as a Junior Nun without Higher Ordination. She came back to Sri Lanka in 1903 and founded the Dasa Sil Mata order of Buddhist nuns.
@nealezumm hi. personally, I do not regard lineage as important. but lineage is "the rules". in Theravada Buddhism and possibly the other Buddhist schools, each monk or nun that is ordained must be able to trace their ordination back to the Buddha. there must be an unbroken line going back to the Buddha who did the original ordinations. sounds stupid? i can only agree. but the matter of lineage is not the point of my comments. I am just responding to the video that is demonising Thai society
@nealezumm for example, one post here states: "It is truly sad that such bigotry and even outright hatred can exist even among Theravadan Buddhist monks."
such a comment is 100% delusional. it is truely sad. no real Buddhist would ever make such a comment without fully investigating the facts. the Thai view has nothing to do with "bigotry" or "hatred".
this issue has ignited the typical Western cultural imperialism & arrogance.
@ehipassiko Trust me. And also trust the Thai Sangha. If the Thai monastic system was not what it is today and was purely an institution for meditation practise, there would be 90% less monks in Thailand and the Thai Sangha would not oppose female ordination. Ajahn Brahm was nurtured by the Thai system. The Thai sytem is not sexist and not demonic. Now please, wake up! Bye
Its very sad to see such wise people pulled into politics and power struggles, they forget their own teachings. We are all human though. You can do little more than apologize, extend your hand in friendship and hope for forgiveness.
I don't understand. What exactly does this mean? I live in the state of Tennessee, USA, so I'm not up to date on what has been going on at the Buddhist Society of Western Australia.
I have been listening to Ajahn Brahms' videos for the last 3-4 years. Ajahn Brahm is the reason why I chose to learn more about Buddhism at this time. I find great comfort in his talks and support his style of teaching. Politics & hierarchy in religion only serves to destroy it. Please, do not let this happen!
One other quick point. The Buddha said that all conditioned systems are subject to impermanence, to change. The ordination process is a conditioned one. The conditions are in fact the very heart of the issue. Am I wrong then to say that the ordination rules and traditions are impermanent and therefore according tot he Buddha's own teachings, must change?
They don't want to let girls into their tree house, but good spiritual company is 100% of the holy life. These ignorant fools have only 50%
@AmishFighterPilot Just to share one point. The Buddha's teachings deal with the state of the human conditions and mind. In my opinion, these are universal truth, which can be applied at any time and place, unless the state of the human mind undergoes a dramatic evolution (not likely). What is impermanent is the rules (and traditions), which is formulated initially by the Buddha and by later monks, to facilitate the skilful practice of the Dharma. These rules can be carefully changed, if needed.
The Buddha defied convention. The Buddha tried many paths, and then the Buddha ultimately defined his own path. The Buddha also taught that you too can be everything he was and is. So does this not logically mean that we too are supposed to question convention, question which path we take? I do not remember reading a single example anywhere in the suttas where the Buddha discouraged independent thinking. By obsessing over technicalities these monks are foolishly limiting their own thinking.
I've learned allot from the Buddha's teachings, and I'll continue to study them, and practice these teachings, as I find them beneficial. But it's really things like these, ''religious attitudes'' which shy me away from calling myself a Buddhist, applying that label to myself, I can't do it like this. Perhaps that's a healthier way to approach spirituality though, if people were not so attached to labels and rules, they could practice more honestly too.
I think this is a great test for Wat Pah Pong to show if they are spiritually advanced enough to handle the situation in the right way what of course will lead to peace and harmony in the community and beeing a good example to all the other conflicts that are happening in the world.
Ajahn Brahm, I support you!!! all the buddha go through a lots of hardship, but I know you will treat this as the breeze in the spring...some are jealous the best...the work you've done is grand and priceless...you are a live buddha...keep going Ajahn!!! love you! love your work! love your words!!
Ajahn Brahm, I support you!!! all the buddha go through a lots of hardship, but I know you will treat this as the breeze in the spring...some are jealous the best...the work you've done is grand and priceless...you are a live buddha...keep going Ajahn!!! love you! love your work! love your words!!
I feel very bad for the Wat Pah Pong assoc. It must be difficult to live in a way that contradicts what they have devoted their life to. On a positive note, it is good that Ajahn Brahm has brought this inconsistency to light. It is a great opportunity for Wat Pah Pong become one with their beliefs.
Is Wat Pah Pong sexism ? Perhaps, it is their culture ? It is their problem... And they are not Buddha any way... So why worry ??? :) Just forget about them... and be happy :)
@g9688823 I know right. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. It makes their journey to be enlighten that much more difficult, the drama they have to deal with regarding how things should be run.
I found him brill seemed to talk sense so the news of this is shocking, I thought Buddha teaches peace and kindness and freedom of mind so is a shame.
@sticksanddrums1 & @sticksanddrums1 it's not what Ajahn Brahm did, it's just the politics surrounding the religion. Like any religion it is "organized." Unfortunately for us human, as we grew in masses, we need to be organized. To understand the whole thing, jao (you) will have to investigate beyond theses videos and see the rituals of the religion itself, see the morning chantings, the one meal a day before noon, the festivities, the alms given, the funeral services, etc...
@silkcat51 that's the flawed of being human. remember not every monk is enlighten, they are students to the path of enlightenment...I'm not even close to being a layman, just an observant Laotian-American born into theravada buddhist communities. Laotian Buddhist societies across the US have their on going shares of scandals as we blogs.
Well, I do know the difference. Being an American, being a woman, I certainly know what pure, plain, blind sexism is. I am Buddhist. And it certainly does Not belong in Buddhism.
@oranjjjggg "To understand the whole thing, jao (you) will have to investigate beyond theses videos and see the rituals of the religion itself, see the morning chantings, the one meal a day before noon, the festivities, the alms given, the funeral services, etc..."
I too support Ajahn Brahm and BSWA's position. But I'm also saddened by aspects of BSWA's response when I feel it contains ill-will in accusing the other side of immorality with pretty harsh criticism (calling behaviour deplorable/fundamentalist/angry/war-like). I think just sticking to facts instead of subjective/emotive language would be more skillful and in tune with a spirit of harmony & peace that BSWA also wants to cultivate.
I am a member of the BSWA and I do not necessarily agree with everything Dennis Sheppard has said but I agree with the bulk of it. I agree, it does sound a little subjective/emotive at parts, but it is easy to see why - it is obviously an issue which Dennis cares about deeply and he is saddened to see what has happened. It must be hard to president of the BSWA considering recent events. I wouldn't want to be in his position. He is only human, trying his best.
@GuyC7 hi Guy. how are you friend? nice to see you here, waiving the colours! Go the Eagles! West Coast! Aussie Aussie Aussie, oi, oi, oi ! Do you know the story of Ian Cairns, the West Oz surfer, who nearly lost his life in the 1970s in Hawaii due to his cultural ignorance? Do you really believe the WPP monks have "anger" and "ill-will"? Do you believe Ajahn Chah would have supported Ajahn Brahm? Education is the key friend rather than blind faith. This is what the Buddha taught.
@GuyC7 The bhikkhuni issue has a long history in Thailand. Ajahn Chah is on the record as stating the conditions for female practitioners need be "good enough", that is all; that the goal of practise is to realise emptiness; that in realising emptiness, there is no "man", no "woman", no "monk", no "nun", no "householder". Ajahn Chah is on the record as stating he did not regard female ordination as necessary.
@GuyC7 Hi Guy. Do you regard Mr Sheppard's behaviour an example of divisive speech & such a terrible thing to see? As a collegue, would you exhort Mr Sheppard to: "Please stop this divisive speech, it is such a terrible thing to see"? I can only recommend you "Australians" educate yourselves. A good start is the following essay, which can be found on the internet: "Kobe University Repository: Dhammamata: Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's notion of motherhood in Buddhist women practitioners". With metta
@Hammersley1967 What jao (you) hear from these videos are the gained wisdom of learning to live a peaceful human existence. The religion part of being Buddhist is the daily routine of praying and chanting in the pali language. The cultural and traditional part is what the society has evolved to tailor around the buddhist monks, such as the festivities and rituals. Just my thoughts and observations from someone that grew up first hand knowing the later part.
"The religion part of being Buddhist is the daily routine of praying and chanting in the pali language."
So, it's not an essential part of the Dharma...
A superfluous set of rituals that may be slightly helpful in that it reinforces the "importance" of the Eightfold Noble Path (for those who need that sort of thing)...
@Hammersley1967 The Dharma is what we want to hear from a holy person that does the religious part for us. Our lives are troubled in one way or another, we run to a holy person like Ajahn Brahm that does the chanting of the pali routinely every morning and night, hence he is more holier than jao and I. We can hit the bottles, eat 5 meals a day, and tried to sleep with another man's wife and cried about why our life is troubled, because we are only human with flaws. (I)8_)~
Agreed to every words jao (you) are saying. It is unBuddhist of those monks. They are doing this, however, not because they are being unBuddhist. It's because of their deep rooted cultures and traditions. Buddhism in the West can take roots, just don't export the deep cultures and traditions of where it came from. I am Laotian-American. Theravada Buddhism came to the West with us the past 30+ years. It is hard to understand Buddhism underneath the thick layers of cultures and traditions.
@JaoStudio1 I just contradicted myself. They are being unBuddhist. Still they are doing it because of the age old tradition of Patriarchal organization of the way the religion has been organized. I doubted that it is anything new that nuns are being ordained. It probably happened before and there are probably sisterhood buddhist monks out there as we speaks. Have your say and just part way, it is best for both sides.
It is such a shame when supposedly advanced practitioners of the middle way are unable to look at their own emotional responses and so condemn others based on their own fears and insecuirities.
Ajahn Brahm should just ignore these frightened people...
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” - Buddha
Isn't this exactly the attitude that Ajahn Brahm took?
@supatipanno -re. 'the rules of the Forest Sangha' -in terms of Vinaya, the only extra rules a particular sangha can make are katikas, e.g. 'we agree to go for alms at xx time', and then it's only a dukkata to break it if the monk had agreed to the katika. It's not allowable by Vinaya to make extra rules other than katikas about trivial matters, to do so is an offence itself, and to disregard invalid extra rules is no offence. The Thai side makes noise about 'Vinaya' but actually doesn't read it
Before I disrobed in 2007, I was involved with the research now published by Bh Sujato supporting the case for revival of the bhikkhuni ordination. We started discussing that research with the Thai side more than ten years ago, and they have never attempted to read it or respond reasonably or engage with the arguments from Dhamma-Vinaya at all. They make a few inaccurate allusions to D-V, but never actually relying on D-V, in practice they rely on traditionalism, hierarchy, coercion + ignorance.
What the Thai side are doing is actually sambhoga-samvasa-patikkhepa = objection to communion by commensality, which is only supposed to be applied to monks of different communion who are acting in bad faith, not making a genuine attempt to argue their case clearly and reasonably and aiming to resolve it. In this case they should only be objecting to communion by doing sanghakamma together, because the Australian monks are very definitely acting in good faith in the disagreement.
It's all sad, but I think this is still just the end of the beginning of the process that has started. The revival of the full ordination for nuns is just a stimulus, the underlying disagreement is a fundamentally different idea of what should be the source of authority that unites the Buddhist community -Thai tradition, hierarchy and abbots vs. radically orthodox Dhamma and Vinaya. Both sides have a lack of clarity about D-V, but the Australian side is basically in the right.
And because the Buddha allowed women in the priesthood, he also stands for classical Buddhism versus the renegade patriarchal Buddhism that's discarded Buddha's timeless wisdom.
I think the truth can never be know for sure, for the person will ill intention can always coat a thick layer of fresh paint over a tainted wall. The only way to tell is to touch our heart and know who are the ones creating differences and unhappiness, and the one who promotes harmony, peace and forgiveness. Namaste. (-/|\-)
While I am sorry to hear such a negative response towards the ordination, I am thrilled that it occurred. It marks a huge difference between old school Buddhist practices and a western Buddhism, one that I believe is taking Buddhism overall in a positive direction.
I am not sure what the Wat Pah Pong folks think they are accomplishing. By issuing edicts, imposing sanctions, and generally throwing a fit, they are only demonstrating that they - presumably senior monks with decades of study of Buddhism under their belts - are far from enlightenment. And this would be so regardless of which side is correct on the underlying issue.
Really sad about this - Ajahn Brahm is a teacher of exceptional ability - I am sure he will take this in his stride - I sense some jealousy here? This is Kali Yuga - the modes of passion and ignorance (Raja and Tamas Gunas) predominate, and Buddhist monks are not immune. There have always been women renunciates - and in the Eastern Buddhism . .
@ironflea It was not so much the Bhikkunis themselves. You cannot have females living in the same monastery grounds where male monks live. It will not work and I cannot explain the dynamics and disasters in the space allowed by YT. Even though i have deep respect for Ajahn Brahm he definately erred in this regard and broke the rules of the Forest Sangha.
@supatipanno -a) they're not in the same monastery, the nunnery is on the other side of Perth about 3hrs away. b) actually one of the rules for bhikkhunis is that they have to spend the vassa somewhere near enough to a suitable monk to give them a fortnightly ovada, so not too far away either.
Ajahn Brahm will always have my support.....his ideas is more to modern times. Whatever one do one will have also faced criticism....even Buddha had enemies.
@5755mettateoh Ajahn Brahm is creating religious cult. How do I know? By your post. Ajahn Brahm is not the Buddha. There is simply a disagreement here. The majority of the Thai people and monks do not want women to ordain. There are a number of cultural reasons for this. Ajahn Chah would have disagreed with the actions of Ajahn Brahm. Every comment here, that exalts Ajahn Brahm and disparages other monks is far from the Dhamma.
@5755mettateoh I also support the bhikkhuni ordination, in principle. But I do not support the expectations that the Thai Sangha should agree with this. Ajahn Brahm is not a fool. Ajahn Brahm clearly understood his actions would cause schism. So please, may those here, who are blindly attached to Ajahn Brahm, without understanding Thai culture, let go of your worldly attachments, as the Buddha taught.
Wat Pah Pong should response to this video or explain itself so that both sides can better understand about each other and remedy the situation. Looking at it positively, this is the perfect opportunity to put the Dharma into actual practice for both sides. In general, a real Buddhist (monks, nuns and lay people) is one who puts the Dharma into daily practice, rather than just plain talk, reading (of the sutta) and preaching with no real actions. We must all talk the talk and walk the walk!
It is relay disheartening to hear that Buddhist people are acting like children,Buddhism is about every one and showing love and compassion to all no matter if you share the same views or not. That is why many westerner are getting in to Buddhism, Buddhism was meant to grow and change with the people who it comes in to contact with. I hope that this can be solved and no one is hurt.
This is truly a sad thing. It makes me question if the monks at Wat Pah Pong are Buddhists at all. I am not naive enough to think there would be no politics at all in any group. That is just human nature. All of this seems to go against the basic nature of Buddhism. I can only hope things get worked out. Thank you Ajhan Brahm for being who you are.
@sashazeitlich dear, your views are clouded in personal subjectiveness. do not take this to heart. you are just an ordinary person. yet u are judging Thai monks falsely. this is bad for your mind. this is purely a cultural matter. i recommend to listen to the Yuttadhammo video on the same subject. he gives the opinion of a senior Thai monk about how the Thai monastic system is "heavily burdened". If you have never lived in Thailand, you cannot know the varied roles the monastery plays
@sashazeitlich hi. the video was called: "Resistance to Ordination of Women". A search shows it has been made private. Why? It attracted many comments about some of YD's personal opinions. However, what was valuable was the opinion of the senior Thai monk. If you send a private message to YuttaDhammo, he may allow you to view it. But as I said, my view is it is unwise to get mentally & emotionally involved in the bhikkhuni matter. I have lived in Thailand. Monasteries are not just for meditation
This reminds me a bit of Christian organizations rejecting members who accept homosexuality as something that is normally found in life and not a mental illness.
The best thing those rejected Christians have done is to create communities that can accept their beliefs and life styles.
Best of luck to your peace efforts, though I think you may be talking to a brick wall.
Its such a shame that sometimes tradition gets in the way of Truth. Religeon should adapt to the environment, or else it will go extinct. Ajahn Brahm is one of the most kindest person Ive seen. He has done nothing but shown western people the better side of Buddhism.
@Priddik, I agree with your positive view of Ajahn Brahm.
But it should be noted that the Buddha did allow women to be ordained, and is said to be the first religion to have allowed such equality. So Ajahn does not stand against genuine Buddhist tradition!
Stay strong and keep to the right path! THANK YOU for standing for equality! The Thai female monastic is just sad. I've been to Thailand and I've seen the way those unordained nuns live. It's just wrong and I'm embarrassed by the behavior of Wat Pah Pong monks!
Green Energy for World Peace, is the theme for the novel, "With These Eyes", written by Horst Steiner.
PeaceWithTheseEyes 3 weeks ago
Thai buddhism is declining cos monk's role can't improve morality in Thai. Why? simply cos in Thai, there's lack of bhikkhunisangha. 2004 Thai govn't set up 'Center for the Promotion of National Strength on Moral Ethics and Values' assist to promote morality. 2005 and after several years, they went to Taiwan Tzu Chi for studying. The foundation of Tzu Chi is a bhikkhuni, Master Cheng Yen and bhikkhunisanghan. Once there is great Thai bhikkhuni, that bhikkhuni can drive many people to do good.
cittamagga 1 month ago
Buddhist are humans. Can they get sick, disease, alzheimers, or dementia? Than they have limitations. Don't put them on such a high god-like plateau. Many monks are striving to be the best they can be, and pass this positive life on to you. Others may be rogue, and their interest for their own personal goals. But stay positive. Also, a President of a Buddhist society of monks is like putting an Orangutan in charge of Humans. Whose welfare does he serve?
orbstats 3 months ago
Bhikkuni has its origin way back to the the time of the Buddha, and any attempt to restrict or impede their ordinations today, I believe, is contrary and inconsistent with his general teachings. I use the word general because a great deal of it was written down long after his death. Misogynistic behaviors is so un-enlightened and reflect the cultural barnacles that we have to put up with. BTW, bickering among the monks is nothing new. During the time of the Buddha, this also has been recorded.
ThePeteBkk 5 months ago
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This is sad .. I support you BSWA and Ajahn Brahm!
MissSatyaDanu 8 months ago
it seems the European tradition of Enlightenment makes good European Buddhist martyrs... :) - like veracious monks, emancipated nuns, unfound tulkus...
Averyunknownpoet 9 months ago
If women can't ordain, then why should men be allowed to? Especially if you take emptiness into consideration, why does it matter if a woman ordains?
allchangesintime 9 months ago 2
I'm still confused. Why are women not allowed to ordain in Australia? Maybe in Thailand it's not practical for some reason but in Aus there is a big thing about gender equality. Why would ajahn chah objec to this happening in a county like Australia?
allchangesintime 9 months ago
I support you BSWA and Ajahn Brahm!
Dragonflyneroli 10 months ago
Obviously angry monks are not enlighten. Anger comes within and as monks, they should investigate that. The Buddha gave the tool (meditation) so use it. Feel hurt? Will, that's your hurt. Investigate that as well. Why do the monks want gratitude? Is it an ego building exercise? Don't chant the path. Walk it.
thirakut 10 months ago 7
This european guy is trying to trash the tradition, l feel like history is repeating itself.
Sunray2live 10 months ago
Hey ...Shouldnt you lot be meditating?
findlaymcarthur 10 months ago
Dear Barbara, ehipasiko is a pseudo buddhist. I can read those words between the lines. Do not be trap by his/her innocence defending Thai buddhists. Thai Buddhists love and respect Ajahn Brhamavamso very much.
-A Thai Buddhist.
beruangah 10 months ago
It is truly sad that such bigotry and even outright hatred can exist even among Theravadan Buddhist monks. I guess wherever there is organized religion, this is inevitable...?
nunyabidnez2011 10 months ago
I'm relatively uneducated, but it seems that Thailand's sex industry brings millions of western dollars into the Thai economy. If they can be prostitutes why can't they be nuns?
jovius34 10 months ago
@jovius34 because that then impedes them from being prostitutes, for one
daveyork0 10 months ago
Donate only to young monks in Asia and NOT to the so called WISE losers in temples in South Asia!!!
mssca 10 months ago
This is why as a South Asian Buddhist, I NO LONGER donate ANYTHING to dumb Buddhist monks in South Asia. I myself is South Asian and Buddhist core values are AGAINST the strict structural systems such as those of idiot monks in Theravada Buddhism. I practice Buddhism, but I am against dumb monks from South Asia. The whole point of I don't like religions like Catholicism with Pope as head is NOT to have anyone control Buddhism at the the first place.
mssca 10 months ago
This is about the fkin nice women monk center thing??
This world is total shit..
Karma teaches these violence mongers against women's rights a lesson.
IloveJesusYesId0 10 months ago
Finally!!! Remind those who do not support that this is the year 2011!!! I'm a loyal listener and occasional supporter in Canada. Ajahn Brahm has a loyal listener base her in Vancouver Canada. He is the wisest voice I have found and hope he continues to teach for many many many many many many many more years to come. I am very in favour of the decision to ordain this nun. Congratulations on your courage to be the leader in change that is most appropriate for the time we are living in today. All
tinafanforlife73 10 months ago
The bhikkhuni ordination resistence in Thailand purely related to Thai culture. Ajahn Chah was not one who supported female ordination in Thailand. For his own sake, it is best this "Australian" educate himself & refrain from making unsubstantiated allegations of "anger" and "ill-will" about monks. If this video was not sad, it would be amusing. Let go! Let go! Please mutually separate with the spirit of good-will & understanding of differences.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay A big part of Buddhism is to speak the inconvenient truth. It's simply fallacious to claim that the Theravada nun lineage was severed and this lie is the only argument Thai folks have against bhikkhuni ordination. I've been to Thailand a number of times and I've see how unordained nuns live and it's repugnant. It's an autocratic patriarchal system that wrongly subjugates women and I'm glad that they're taking a stand for truth. Brahm is on the right side of history.
ehipassiko 10 months ago
@ehipassiko I have also been to Thailand a number of times. Once lived in a bamboo shelter in a forest monastery any creature could crawl into. My drinking water came off the thatched roof into a clay jar. In a practise monastery, the folks live "low" & do all kinds of menial work. It is not about luxuries and privileges. However, this is primarily unrelated to the issue. In Thailand, both men & women are in the monastery for all sorts of reasons, the minority being for serious practice.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
I guess that's the nature of samsara. You can't expect politicians and businesspeople—whether they wear robes or not—to support the Dhamma. They will always act based on greed, hatred, and delusion. If they were arahats, they wouldn't be running international organizations, trying to control what others think or do. All we can really do is make sure we don't waste too much time trying to learn about enlightenment from the obviously unenlightened.
DauphinSuppleChirp 10 months ago
Listening to Mr. Sheppard read his statement, I am reminded of a story Ajahn Brahm tells of the hated donkey who fell into the ditch and whose owner - instead of helping him out - covered him with shovel after shovel of dirt to get rid of him. In Ajahn Brahm's story, the donkey shook off each shovelful of dirt, stamped it into the ground, and continued doing so until he was high enough to free himself and walk away......
May the monks at Wat Pa Pong hear you with an open heart!
nalaka220 10 months ago
Ajahn Brahm and his teachings have become a great blessing in my life - he has added immensely to my understanding of Buddhism, and I support him now -
joy945 10 months ago
I doubt Ajahn Chah would be happy to see this :(
allchangesintime 10 months ago 5
@allchangesintime Ajahn Chah did not support female ordination. If he was alive today, he would not be supporting Ajahn Brahm.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Ajahn Chah was ignorant of the the fact that the Theravada bhikkhuni lineage survived into the modern era before he died. Just because Ajahn Chah didn't have that knowledge doesn't mean that we shouldn't support Theravada bhikkhuni ordination now that the Theravada bhikkhuni lineage has been proven to exist.
ehipassiko 10 months ago
@ehipassiko Sure. Ajahn Chah was "ignorant". As though you would know the mind of Ajahn Chah? Best one practises Dhamma rather than speak unsubstantiated words. The Buddha clearly said speaking that which one does not know to be true is false speech. Ajahn Brahm speaks of Ajahn Chah's "powers". If Ajahn Brahm speaks what is true, then Ajahn Chah was not ignorant of these things. But if what you say is true, then Ajahn Brahm speaks falsely.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay You're arguing that it's unreasonable to conclude that Ajahn Chah didn't know about the Theravada bhikkhuni lineage that was substantiated after his death. You're literally demanding that we prove what a dead man knew before drawing reasoned conclusions based on known facts. This is known as an appeal to ignorance fallacy. You then went on to make an appeal to authority. Please address my argument honestly. Thanks!
ehipassiko 10 months ago
@ehipassiko I told you. You do not know the mind of Ajahn. I do not know the mind of Ajahn Chah. Your opinion is mere speculation. It has no basis in reality. However, the recorded facts say Ajahn Chah said the conditions for women's practise should be "good enough". That is all. The conditions for practise are merely fourfold, namely, food (one or two meals before noon), clothing, shelter & medicine. That's it! As for practise, Ajahn Chah said this is to realise emptiness or ultimate truth
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
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@BarbarraBay Do you really not see how sticking with an appeal to ignorance fallacy as an argument isn't useful? Your premise is that we cannot use known facts to make reasoned statements. Ajahn Chah died before it became known that there was a valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage. You're literally claiming that it's unreasonable to deduce that he didn't know about the valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage before it was discovered. Your argument is fallacious. Please address my premise honestly.
ehipassiko 10 months ago
@ehipassiko As for practise, Ajahn Chah said this is to realise emptiness or ultimate truth. In ultimate truth, Ajahn Chah said there is not such thing as "monk", "nun", "layperson", "man", "woman", etc. These labels are merely conventions but they are not ultimate truth. The order of monks provides are vehicle to preserve the teachings but ordaining does not intrinsically provide a vehicle for enlightenment. To think so is delusion. Many people ordain and then disrobe.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko As I said initially, most of the thousands of men ordained in Thailand are so due to many cultural, economic, superstitious & moral reasons that are unrelated to practise for enlightenment. As one example, every Thai man once in his life becomes are monk for 3 months to learn about morals & how to be a good husband. The Thai culture does not need a female version of this. Such things have overloaded the Thai monastic system. It cannot cope with the addition of women to it.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko this Thai monastic system, that is overloaded, difficult to manage, that has tens of thousands, at times hundreds of thousands of monks in it, must be economically supported, yet it mostly serves a cultural & religious (superstitious) purpose. That women begin to use such a system for superstitious purposes would make it more difficult & close to impossible. You need to educate yourself rather than shooting emotion opinions off the hip, like the Aussie in the video
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Claiming that the reason my opinion differs from yours is that I don't understand the Thai system seems a bit hubris to me. How would you happen to know how long I spent in Thailand? Again, my premise is this: Arguing against bhikkhuni ordination on the basis that Ajahn Chah didn't approve of it is an appeal to authority fallacy and is especially fallacious since he died before a valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage was discovered.
ehipassiko 10 months ago
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@ehipassiko I have already spoken Ajahn Chah's view. Ajahn Chah as an enlightened being understood Thai society and as a monk held the appropriate view for what is most beneficial for the Thai society at large. For Ajahn Brahm, as a Westerner, to lecture the Thai people, is simply moronic & grossly disrespectful. Such opinions are uninformed, misplaced & misguided. As I said, they are classic example of Western cultural imperialism & arrogance.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko You to not appear to be a nun. There are very few bhikkhunis in the world dedicated to enlightenment. The Thai sangha & Thai society at large do not want to introduce female ordination into their society. I have pointed out many valid reasons for this. Yet there are Thai women who are bhikkhunis. Women wishing to ordain have sufficient means to do so. Any motivated female practitioner has ample means to pursue the Buddhist path. This whole debate disrespects Thai society.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko It does not matter how long you spent in Thailand. The evidence presented in your reasonings shows your mind has not perceived the reality of Thai culture & especially the INTRINSIC role of family values & gender roles & how these are nurtured. You believe you are being open minded but the truth is you are being narrow minded. Your mind is blinded by its own rigid opinions about "gender equality" that have arisen in respect to another culture.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
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@BarbarraBay Another red herring. Here's my premise for the 4th time: Arguing against bhikkhuni ordination on the basis that Ajahn Chah didn't approve of it is an appeal to authority fallacy and is especially fallacious since he died before a valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage was discovered.
ehipassiko 10 months ago
@ehipassiko So to educate yourself, simply start with Wikipedia 'Buddhism in Thailand'. It states, for example, "Temporary ordination is the norm among Thai Buddhists. Young men in Thailand who have undergone ordination are seen as being more suitable partners for marriage; unordained men are euphemistically called 'raw', while those who have been ordained are said to be 'cooked'. A period as a monk is a prerequisite for many positions of leadership within the village hierarchy."
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko As shown in Wikipedia, it is Thai women that wish to ensure their sons & prospective husbands be good husbands. The ordinary Thai woman has a very strong sense of morality & her maternal needs thus wants a husband who has been trained in morals & who respects elder monks (who can later counsel him when married). Thai women want men to go thru monastic training for the purpose of helping good marriages but obviously & correctly do not see a need for women to do this.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko To end, whilst your home page shows you to be an activist for various gender issues, which may be worthy cause, & whilst I enjoyed listening to Ziggy Stardust again, your activism in the relation to the bhikkhuni matter in respect to Thai society is uninformed, misplaced & misguided. It is a classic example of Western cultural imperialism & arrogance. Thai & Western cultures have the opposite gender dynamics. All the best.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Again, you've sidestepped dealing with my premise with yet another fallacious argument. This time you've used a red herring. Here's my premise for the 3rd time: Arguing against bhikkhuni ordination on the basis that Ajahn Chah didn't approve of it is an appeal to authority fallacy and is especially fallacious since he died before a valid Theravada bhikkhuni lineage was discovered.
ehipassiko 10 months ago
@ehipassiko My view is not fallacious. There has been no recent discovery of a Theravada bhikkhuni lineage. It has always been known the Mahayana lineage was born from the former Theravada lineage. But the Thai Sangha chooses to not recognise this. Why? Because, as I said, repeatedly, the Thai monastic system has evolved into something much more than a meditation system. The monastic system is now something cultural. So the Thais will always block it by not recognising the Mayanana nuns.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay "My view is not fallacious. There has been no recent discovery of a Theravada bhikkhuni lineage." Okay. At this point I have to call BS. You claim that your statements are not fallacious and in the very next sentence you make a claim that's demonstrably wrong. Either you're ignorant about some important facts or obtuse. There is an unbroken Theravada - NOT Mahayana - bhikkhuni lineage.
ehipassiko 10 months ago
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MrZebos 10 months ago
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@ehipassiko Please. There is no unbroken Theravada lineage. There was the original Theravada lineage which later ordained bhikkhunis in the Mahayana schools. Then the Theravada lineage ended but the Mahayana bhikkhuni lineage continued. Thus in recent years, the first Theravada bhikkhunis received their ordination through the Mahayana bhikkhunis (in either Hong Kong or Taiwan).
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko Again, the Wikipedia can serve as a means of education. In the topic of "Bhikkhuni", it states: "The only transmission line of ordination that still exists is the Dharmagupta transmission line, which allows the ordination of nuns in China, Taiwan, Korea and Vietnam."
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Using Wiki as your main source of info is dubious at best. Catherine de Alvis (who became Bhukkuni Sudharmachari) ordained as a Theravada Bhukkuni in 1905 by taking linage from Burma. On top of that Theravada Bhikkhunis gave ordination to 300 Chinese women in 433 CE. That Bhukkuni linage was returned to Sri Lanka in 1988.
ehipassiko 10 months ago
@ehipassiko Two sources: (1) For hundreds of years Sri Lanka did not have women ordained until 1905 when
Catherine de Alvis initiated the ten-precept nuns having taken the lineage from Burma. It was not until 1988 that the first group of Sri Lankan ten-precept nuns received full ordination from the Chinese lineage in L.A.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Yes, the so-called "Chinese lineage" IS the Theravada Bhikkhuni lineage from 433 CE. Even if the transmission of the Bhikkhuni lineage to Nanking never happened, did the Buddha not say "Bhikkhus, I allow bhikkhus to ordain bhikkhunis"? Either the linage can be clearly traced or it can't. If it can, then linage exists. If it can't (which it can) the Buddha explicitly gives permission to bhikkhus to ordain bhikkhunis. So, what's the problem (other than Sangha Act)?
ehipassiko 10 months ago
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BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko Traditionally, Theravada does not recognise anything Mahayana. In their eyes, Mahayana was a "schism". However, nothing we have discussed diminishes the utter absurdity of this imbicilic Australian moron in the video. Contrary, to what he said, the Thai people & monks do not have "ill-will", "anger" or "sexism". The Thai monastic system is simply not designed for women. I told you already, if Thai monasticism was only for dedicated meditation then there would be no Thai resistence.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Yes, the first line of the Sangha Act makes it very clear that monastic life is for men only in Thailand. In the rest of the world, that is known as sexism. Clearly women want to live the ordained life in Thailand, but they are barred... even when there are 100s of Theravada Bhikkhuni right now throughout the world. There exists a very clear Theravada Bhikkhuni leniage and the Buddha states that monks can ordain nuns. What's the issue, other than a Thai laws written by men for men?
ehipassiko 10 months ago
@ehipassiko Being simply "a job", the bhikkhuni issue has the same relevence as the Western fight for equal opportunities in the work place. There is nothing spiritual about it. It is simply the fight to give women the right to earn money & secular power from Buddhism. That is all. This whole affair has nothing to with enlightenment or spiritual practise. It is just spiritual materialism. These realities are not grounds to stop female ordination. But they just characterise its trivialness.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko I have already explainted to you the traditional Thai gender role models & how the universal ordination of men supports Thai family values. That women ordain in the West, for example, is fine. I have no disagreement because the Western monastic system is pure, that is, being something both small & devoted solely to meditation practise, study & teaching. But I have explained to you in Thailand it is different. So stop your Western imperialism commenting on Thai law.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay
If you have no problem with women ordaining in the west what's your problem with the BSWA? All they want is the right to do things their way, according to their conscience and their interpretation of the vinaya; and to be able to retain friendly links with people who have been their friends in the past. Instead the Wat Pah Pong people seem to be demanding that all the monks associated with them refuse to visit or talk to the BSWA people, which seems petty and hateful.
oliveranthonyrowland 8 months ago
@ehipassiko How can you regard yourself to be Buddhist (with the name "Ehipassiko") when you work in the manner of a Western imperialist, similar to a colonialist or a Christian missionary, to think you can dictate to Thai people about Thai law? Ajahn Brahm was born from Thai Buddhism. I myself am 100% indebted to Thai Buddhism for my spiritual life. Your posts are disrespectful & the behaviour of Brahm's followers is ungrateful. This ingratitude is why the Thai monks trashed Ajahn Brahm
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Are you a Thai Buddhst woman?
ehipassiko 10 months ago
@ehipassiko To Thais, there is nothing worse, barbaric, ignorant, uncultured & moronic that being ungrateful. The Ajahn Chah monks trashed & ridiculed Ajahn Brahm for his lack of gratitude. The Buddha taught the most basic level of right understanding (samma ditthi) is gratitude; to understand our life has benefactors. Ajahn Brahm was expelled from his Thai tradition, which his fine. Ajahn Brahm & this followers should simply carry on with their own affairs & stay out of Thai affairs
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay
If the Thai monastic system is not designed for women then why should it not change? Women are half of the human population after all. If monasticism has something very valuable to offer, then why should it not be open to all humans??
orlando098 8 months ago
@ehipassiko To end, you have disregarded everything I have said about Thai culture so you can continue your obsessed Western imperialistic crusade. Try to recognise the reality of Thai society & the role monasticism plays in it. The Buddha said a wise person has seven qualities, which includes understanding other societies. If you understood the reality of ENLIGHTENMENT, you would understand this matter is essentially unimportant. To ordain offers secular status, that is all.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay What reason can you give me that would make me conclude that you know more about Thai women than the Thai women I know? What reason can you give me that would make me conclude that you know more about Theravada Bhikkhuni than the Theravada Bhikkhuni I know? Having an opinion is one thing, thinking that your opinion can't be any less than the best is what is known as hubris. Also, IMHO playing the "Western imperialism" card is lame.
ehipassiko 10 months ago 3
@ehipassiko I am not "playing" any card. There is no "hubis". I reiterate for a last time, your behaviour & opinions are of a cultural imperialist. Your incapacity to see that is fatal. Enjoyed the chat & enjoyed Ziggy Stardust (oooh yeah). Bye
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko In the world today there are many enlightened liberated beings who are laypeople. Ordaining simply provides an economically supported environment for dedicated practitioners. It also provides the ideal sphere for those who wish to dedicate their lives to propaganting (teaching) Buddhism. Apart from that, it does not guarantee enlightenment. Buddhist monasticism is the social relationship where monks & nuns give teachings in return for their material needs. It is simply "a job".
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko (2) Miss Catherine de Alwis who went to Burma and got ordained there as a Junior Nun without Higher Ordination. She came back to Sri Lanka in 1903 and founded the Dasa Sil Mata order of Buddhist nuns.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Why is lineage so important? Enlighten me. (I truly don't want to get into an argument - I would just like get the point.)
nealezumm 10 months ago
@nealezumm hi. personally, I do not regard lineage as important. but lineage is "the rules". in Theravada Buddhism and possibly the other Buddhist schools, each monk or nun that is ordained must be able to trace their ordination back to the Buddha. there must be an unbroken line going back to the Buddha who did the original ordinations. sounds stupid? i can only agree. but the matter of lineage is not the point of my comments. I am just responding to the video that is demonising Thai society
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Thanks for the clear explanation. "An unbroken line going back to the Buddha" - nice thought.
nealezumm 10 months ago
@nealezumm for example, one post here states: "It is truly sad that such bigotry and even outright hatred can exist even among Theravadan Buddhist monks."
such a comment is 100% delusional. it is truely sad. no real Buddhist would ever make such a comment without fully investigating the facts. the Thai view has nothing to do with "bigotry" or "hatred".
this issue has ignited the typical Western cultural imperialism & arrogance.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@ehipassiko Trust me. And also trust the Thai Sangha. If the Thai monastic system was not what it is today and was purely an institution for meditation practise, there would be 90% less monks in Thailand and the Thai Sangha would not oppose female ordination. Ajahn Brahm was nurtured by the Thai system. The Thai sytem is not sexist and not demonic. Now please, wake up! Bye
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
Why are some of the monks at wat pah pong so mean? It is dharma that is most important.
allchangesintime 10 months ago
Its very sad to see such wise people pulled into politics and power struggles, they forget their own teachings. We are all human though. You can do little more than apologize, extend your hand in friendship and hope for forgiveness.
KamikazeKenny81 10 months ago
So much for Buddhist compassion.... this is about bullying and jealousy!! Shame on them!!
bugatti103 10 months ago
I don't understand. What exactly does this mean? I live in the state of Tennessee, USA, so I'm not up to date on what has been going on at the Buddhist Society of Western Australia.
I have been listening to Ajahn Brahms' videos for the last 3-4 years. Ajahn Brahm is the reason why I chose to learn more about Buddhism at this time. I find great comfort in his talks and support his style of teaching. Politics & hierarchy in religion only serves to destroy it. Please, do not let this happen!
pixygiggles 10 months ago
I miss you AB. You helped and comforted me. It makes no sense to remove someone so beneficial to others. With love and respect ...a single mom.
newday0531 11 months ago
One other quick point. The Buddha said that all conditioned systems are subject to impermanence, to change. The ordination process is a conditioned one. The conditions are in fact the very heart of the issue. Am I wrong then to say that the ordination rules and traditions are impermanent and therefore according tot he Buddha's own teachings, must change?
They don't want to let girls into their tree house, but good spiritual company is 100% of the holy life. These ignorant fools have only 50%
AmishFighterPilot 11 months ago
@AmishFighterPilot Just to share one point. The Buddha's teachings deal with the state of the human conditions and mind. In my opinion, these are universal truth, which can be applied at any time and place, unless the state of the human mind undergoes a dramatic evolution (not likely). What is impermanent is the rules (and traditions), which is formulated initially by the Buddha and by later monks, to facilitate the skilful practice of the Dharma. These rules can be carefully changed, if needed.
thomaser82 11 months ago
The Buddha defied convention. The Buddha tried many paths, and then the Buddha ultimately defined his own path. The Buddha also taught that you too can be everything he was and is. So does this not logically mean that we too are supposed to question convention, question which path we take? I do not remember reading a single example anywhere in the suttas where the Buddha discouraged independent thinking. By obsessing over technicalities these monks are foolishly limiting their own thinking.
AmishFighterPilot 11 months ago 3
I've learned allot from the Buddha's teachings, and I'll continue to study them, and practice these teachings, as I find them beneficial. But it's really things like these, ''religious attitudes'' which shy me away from calling myself a Buddhist, applying that label to myself, I can't do it like this. Perhaps that's a healthier way to approach spirituality though, if people were not so attached to labels and rules, they could practice more honestly too.
nijuusei 11 months ago 3
Thank you Ajahn.
BrotherHueGioi 11 months ago
I think this is a great test for Wat Pah Pong to show if they are spiritually advanced enough to handle the situation in the right way what of course will lead to peace and harmony in the community and beeing a good example to all the other conflicts that are happening in the world.
Mindstar11 11 months ago
support Ajahn Brahm!! Karma will get them....
kuochi1 11 months ago
Ajahn Brahm, I support you!!! all the buddha go through a lots of hardship, but I know you will treat this as the breeze in the spring...some are jealous the best...the work you've done is grand and priceless...you are a live buddha...keep going Ajahn!!! love you! love your work! love your words!!
kuochi1 11 months ago
Ajahn Brahm, I support you!!! all the buddha go through a lots of hardship, but I know you will treat this as the breeze in the spring...some are jealous the best...the work you've done is grand and priceless...you are a live buddha...keep going Ajahn!!! love you! love your work! love your words!!
kuochi1 11 months ago
I feel very bad for the Wat Pah Pong assoc. It must be difficult to live in a way that contradicts what they have devoted their life to. On a positive note, it is good that Ajahn Brahm has brought this inconsistency to light. It is a great opportunity for Wat Pah Pong become one with their beliefs.
dscottwheeler 11 months ago
Is Wat Pah Pong sexism ? Perhaps, it is their culture ? It is their problem... And they are not Buddha any way... So why worry ??? :) Just forget about them... and be happy :)
g9688823 11 months ago
@g9688823 I know right. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. It makes their journey to be enlighten that much more difficult, the drama they have to deal with regarding how things should be run.
JaoStudio1 11 months ago
I found him brill seemed to talk sense so the news of this is shocking, I thought Buddha teaches peace and kindness and freedom of mind so is a shame.
All the best to Ajahn Brahm
PaganWalker 11 months ago
@sticksanddrums1 & @sticksanddrums1 it's not what Ajahn Brahm did, it's just the politics surrounding the religion. Like any religion it is "organized." Unfortunately for us human, as we grew in masses, we need to be organized. To understand the whole thing, jao (you) will have to investigate beyond theses videos and see the rituals of the religion itself, see the morning chantings, the one meal a day before noon, the festivities, the alms given, the funeral services, etc...
JaoStudio1 11 months ago
This is absurd. These buddhists all caught up in ego-- for shame. Ajahn Brahm will have my support always.
silkcat51 11 months ago
@silkcat51 that's the flawed of being human. remember not every monk is enlighten, they are students to the path of enlightenment...I'm not even close to being a layman, just an observant Laotian-American born into theravada buddhist communities. Laotian Buddhist societies across the US have their on going shares of scandals as we blogs.
JaoStudio1 11 months ago
@JaoStudio1
Well, I do know the difference. Being an American, being a woman, I certainly know what pure, plain, blind sexism is. I am Buddhist. And it certainly does Not belong in Buddhism.
silkcat51 11 months ago
can someone tell me in brief what exactly Ajahn Brahm did to cause his home monestary to excommunicate him?
To my understand, he ordained nuns? how is this wrong? And how does it cause such intense ill will from his former friends?
Sorry, I just can't seem to grasp what is going on, any help would be appreciated:)
oranjjjggg 11 months ago
@oranjjjggg "To understand the whole thing, jao (you) will have to investigate beyond theses videos and see the rituals of the religion itself, see the morning chantings, the one meal a day before noon, the festivities, the alms given, the funeral services, etc..."
JaoStudio1 11 months ago
Support Ajahn Brahm!!!!!
arev1977 11 months ago
I too support Ajahn Brahm and BSWA's position. But I'm also saddened by aspects of BSWA's response when I feel it contains ill-will in accusing the other side of immorality with pretty harsh criticism (calling behaviour deplorable/fundamentalist/angry/war-like). I think just sticking to facts instead of subjective/emotive language would be more skillful and in tune with a spirit of harmony & peace that BSWA also wants to cultivate.
euug 11 months ago
@euug Hi Euug,
I am a member of the BSWA and I do not necessarily agree with everything Dennis Sheppard has said but I agree with the bulk of it. I agree, it does sound a little subjective/emotive at parts, but it is easy to see why - it is obviously an issue which Dennis cares about deeply and he is saddened to see what has happened. It must be hard to president of the BSWA considering recent events. I wouldn't want to be in his position. He is only human, trying his best.
Metta,
Guy
GuyC7 11 months ago
@GuyC7 hi Guy. how are you friend? nice to see you here, waiving the colours! Go the Eagles! West Coast! Aussie Aussie Aussie, oi, oi, oi ! Do you know the story of Ian Cairns, the West Oz surfer, who nearly lost his life in the 1970s in Hawaii due to his cultural ignorance? Do you really believe the WPP monks have "anger" and "ill-will"? Do you believe Ajahn Chah would have supported Ajahn Brahm? Education is the key friend rather than blind faith. This is what the Buddha taught.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Hi Barbarra,
I am good, how are you?
What about Ian Cairns?
I don't know what Ajahn Chah would or wouldn't have supported, I never even met him.
Metta,
Guy
GuyC7 10 months ago
@GuyC7 The bhikkhuni issue has a long history in Thailand. Ajahn Chah is on the record as stating the conditions for female practitioners need be "good enough", that is all; that the goal of practise is to realise emptiness; that in realising emptiness, there is no "man", no "woman", no "monk", no "nun", no "householder". Ajahn Chah is on the record as stating he did not regard female ordination as necessary.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@GuyC7 Hi Guy. Do you regard Mr Sheppard's behaviour an example of divisive speech & such a terrible thing to see? As a collegue, would you exhort Mr Sheppard to: "Please stop this divisive speech, it is such a terrible thing to see"? I can only recommend you "Australians" educate yourselves. A good start is the following essay, which can be found on the internet: "Kobe University Repository: Dhammamata: Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's notion of motherhood in Buddhist women practitioners". With metta
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Hi Barbarra,
I believe that Dennis makes it clear that he wishes for the people involved to live in harmony, so I do not see it as divisive speech.
I will have a look at the essay you have mentioned, thanks.
Metta,
Guy
GuyC7 10 months ago
I take the point about the "cultural differences" between the West (Australia) and the East (Thailand).
It has always been a ridiculous notion and practice - receiving the Dharma in dead foreign languages and alien cultural context.
If we are Westerners, then it is only common sense that we receive and practice the Dharma in western language and culture.
However, has anyone on the Australian side of this disagreement bothered to ponder the point of view and reasons of the Wat Pah Pong Sangha?
Hammersley1967 11 months ago
@Hammersley1967 What jao (you) hear from these videos are the gained wisdom of learning to live a peaceful human existence. The religion part of being Buddhist is the daily routine of praying and chanting in the pali language. The cultural and traditional part is what the society has evolved to tailor around the buddhist monks, such as the festivities and rituals. Just my thoughts and observations from someone that grew up first hand knowing the later part.
JaoStudio1 11 months ago
@JaoStudio1
"The religion part of being Buddhist is the daily routine of praying and chanting in the pali language."
So, it's not an essential part of the Dharma...
A superfluous set of rituals that may be slightly helpful in that it reinforces the "importance" of the Eightfold Noble Path (for those who need that sort of thing)...
Hammersley1967 11 months ago
@Hammersley1967 The Dharma is what we want to hear from a holy person that does the religious part for us. Our lives are troubled in one way or another, we run to a holy person like Ajahn Brahm that does the chanting of the pali routinely every morning and night, hence he is more holier than jao and I. We can hit the bottles, eat 5 meals a day, and tried to sleep with another man's wife and cried about why our life is troubled, because we are only human with flaws. (I)8_)~
JaoStudio1 11 months ago
@JaoStudio1
"Ajahn Brahm that does the chanting of the pali routinely every morning and night, hence he is more holier than jao and I"
I don't follow the connection between "chanting of the pali routinely every morning and night" and him being "more holier than jao and I".
What does the recitation of a foreign and dead language have to do with being "holy"?
I only take instruction (in English) from monastics because they have traversed much further along the Eightfold Noble Path than I have.
Hammersley1967 11 months ago
Agreed to every words jao (you) are saying. It is unBuddhist of those monks. They are doing this, however, not because they are being unBuddhist. It's because of their deep rooted cultures and traditions. Buddhism in the West can take roots, just don't export the deep cultures and traditions of where it came from. I am Laotian-American. Theravada Buddhism came to the West with us the past 30+ years. It is hard to understand Buddhism underneath the thick layers of cultures and traditions.
JaoStudio1 11 months ago
@JaoStudio1 I just contradicted myself. They are being unBuddhist. Still they are doing it because of the age old tradition of Patriarchal organization of the way the religion has been organized. I doubted that it is anything new that nuns are being ordained. It probably happened before and there are probably sisterhood buddhist monks out there as we speaks. Have your say and just part way, it is best for both sides.
JaoStudio1 11 months ago
It is such a shame when supposedly advanced practitioners of the middle way are unable to look at their own emotional responses and so condemn others based on their own fears and insecuirities.
Ajahn Brahm should just ignore these frightened people...
jagara1 11 months ago 2
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” - Buddha
Isn't this exactly the attitude that Ajahn Brahm took?
Ephemerance 11 months ago 2
I am behind BSWA and Ajahn Brahm 100%!
IWantSoundKnowledge 11 months ago 3
Ajahn Brahm, we got your back no matter what!
pragzter 11 months ago 2
@supatipanno -re. 'the rules of the Forest Sangha' -in terms of Vinaya, the only extra rules a particular sangha can make are katikas, e.g. 'we agree to go for alms at xx time', and then it's only a dukkata to break it if the monk had agreed to the katika. It's not allowable by Vinaya to make extra rules other than katikas about trivial matters, to do so is an offence itself, and to disregard invalid extra rules is no offence. The Thai side makes noise about 'Vinaya' but actually doesn't read it
kesterratcliff1 11 months ago
Before I disrobed in 2007, I was involved with the research now published by Bh Sujato supporting the case for revival of the bhikkhuni ordination. We started discussing that research with the Thai side more than ten years ago, and they have never attempted to read it or respond reasonably or engage with the arguments from Dhamma-Vinaya at all. They make a few inaccurate allusions to D-V, but never actually relying on D-V, in practice they rely on traditionalism, hierarchy, coercion + ignorance.
kesterratcliff1 11 months ago
What the Thai side are doing is actually sambhoga-samvasa-patikkhepa = objection to communion by commensality, which is only supposed to be applied to monks of different communion who are acting in bad faith, not making a genuine attempt to argue their case clearly and reasonably and aiming to resolve it. In this case they should only be objecting to communion by doing sanghakamma together, because the Australian monks are very definitely acting in good faith in the disagreement.
kesterratcliff1 11 months ago
It's all sad, but I think this is still just the end of the beginning of the process that has started. The revival of the full ordination for nuns is just a stimulus, the underlying disagreement is a fundamentally different idea of what should be the source of authority that unites the Buddhist community -Thai tradition, hierarchy and abbots vs. radically orthodox Dhamma and Vinaya. Both sides have a lack of clarity about D-V, but the Australian side is basically in the right.
kesterratcliff1 11 months ago
Is this the reason Ajahn Brahm's last few lectures about "hissing" and when not to be passive?
Politics is rampant in all religion; this is a clear example.
Ephemerance 11 months ago
Ajahn Brahm is an icon of modern Buddhism!
And because the Buddha allowed women in the priesthood, he also stands for classical Buddhism versus the renegade patriarchal Buddhism that's discarded Buddha's timeless wisdom.
iamgoddard 11 months ago 2
I think the truth can never be know for sure, for the person will ill intention can always coat a thick layer of fresh paint over a tainted wall. The only way to tell is to touch our heart and know who are the ones creating differences and unhappiness, and the one who promotes harmony, peace and forgiveness. Namaste. (-/|\-)
TenzinKSG 11 months ago
remember that this is only one side of the argument.
let us stay neutral and let these supposed holy and enlightened monks carry on with their squabbles. In reality they are no different than children.
Jackthemeat 11 months ago
While I am sorry to hear such a negative response towards the ordination, I am thrilled that it occurred. It marks a huge difference between old school Buddhist practices and a western Buddhism, one that I believe is taking Buddhism overall in a positive direction.
Thaibebop 11 months ago
Compulsion is the weapon of a sinking power-oriented structure.
Don't worry. Be faithful.
tonadachi 11 months ago
Weren't all allowed the grace of forgiveness? Sad times ahead. Only seek the wisdom of the buddha and endure.
guteatinmonkey 11 months ago
Secret meetings...god I thought we'd moved on from all this...sad sad sad.
supersezza 11 months ago
Misogynistic views are defined as 'hatred' and just aren't acceptable in our modern society.
supersezza 11 months ago
I am not sure what the Wat Pah Pong folks think they are accomplishing. By issuing edicts, imposing sanctions, and generally throwing a fit, they are only demonstrating that they - presumably senior monks with decades of study of Buddhism under their belts - are far from enlightenment. And this would be so regardless of which side is correct on the underlying issue.
sonoki82 11 months ago
Really sad about this - Ajahn Brahm is a teacher of exceptional ability - I am sure he will take this in his stride - I sense some jealousy here? This is Kali Yuga - the modes of passion and ignorance (Raja and Tamas Gunas) predominate, and Buddhist monks are not immune. There have always been women renunciates - and in the Eastern Buddhism . .
georgiegirlize 11 months ago 13
I don't understand, just what did the bikkunis do to gain the ire of wat pang pong monks? Can somebody please elaborate the situation to me?
ironflea 11 months ago 2
@ironflea It was not so much the Bhikkunis themselves. You cannot have females living in the same monastery grounds where male monks live. It will not work and I cannot explain the dynamics and disasters in the space allowed by YT. Even though i have deep respect for Ajahn Brahm he definately erred in this regard and broke the rules of the Forest Sangha.
supatipanno 11 months ago
@supatipanno -a) they're not in the same monastery, the nunnery is on the other side of Perth about 3hrs away. b) actually one of the rules for bhikkhunis is that they have to spend the vassa somewhere near enough to a suitable monk to give them a fortnightly ovada, so not too far away either.
kesterratcliff1 11 months ago
Ajahn Brahm will always have my support.....his ideas is more to modern times. Whatever one do one will have also faced criticism....even Buddha had enemies.
5755mettateoh 11 months ago 32
@5755mettateoh Ajahn Brahm is creating religious cult. How do I know? By your post. Ajahn Brahm is not the Buddha. There is simply a disagreement here. The majority of the Thai people and monks do not want women to ordain. There are a number of cultural reasons for this. Ajahn Chah would have disagreed with the actions of Ajahn Brahm. Every comment here, that exalts Ajahn Brahm and disparages other monks is far from the Dhamma.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
@5755mettateoh I also support the bhikkhuni ordination, in principle. But I do not support the expectations that the Thai Sangha should agree with this. Ajahn Brahm is not a fool. Ajahn Brahm clearly understood his actions would cause schism. So please, may those here, who are blindly attached to Ajahn Brahm, without understanding Thai culture, let go of your worldly attachments, as the Buddha taught.
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
this is really sad. * * Raised Hands ** You have my support Ajahn Brahm...
may the monks of Wat Pah Pong be able to find peace
toastybeer 11 months ago 2
This saddens me greatly. 2 thoughts are the middle path and the cessation of suffering.
Kyuslydian 11 months ago
Wat Pah Pong should response to this video or explain itself so that both sides can better understand about each other and remedy the situation. Looking at it positively, this is the perfect opportunity to put the Dharma into actual practice for both sides. In general, a real Buddhist (monks, nuns and lay people) is one who puts the Dharma into daily practice, rather than just plain talk, reading (of the sutta) and preaching with no real actions. We must all talk the talk and walk the walk!
thomaser82 11 months ago 2
It is relay disheartening to hear that Buddhist people are acting like children,Buddhism is about every one and showing love and compassion to all no matter if you share the same views or not. That is why many westerner are getting in to Buddhism, Buddhism was meant to grow and change with the people who it comes in to contact with. I hope that this can be solved and no one is hurt.
SukiOwari 11 months ago
This is truly a sad thing. It makes me question if the monks at Wat Pah Pong are Buddhists at all. I am not naive enough to think there would be no politics at all in any group. That is just human nature. All of this seems to go against the basic nature of Buddhism. I can only hope things get worked out. Thank you Ajhan Brahm for being who you are.
With Metta,
P. Rouillard
sashazeitlich 11 months ago 2
@sashazeitlich dear, your views are clouded in personal subjectiveness. do not take this to heart. you are just an ordinary person. yet u are judging Thai monks falsely. this is bad for your mind. this is purely a cultural matter. i recommend to listen to the Yuttadhammo video on the same subject. he gives the opinion of a senior Thai monk about how the Thai monastic system is "heavily burdened". If you have never lived in Thailand, you cannot know the varied roles the monastery plays
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@BarbarraBay Thank you I will check that video out.
sashazeitlich 10 months ago
@BarbarraBay Video link? I can not seem to find it.
sashazeitlich 10 months ago
@sashazeitlich hi. the video was called: "Resistance to Ordination of Women". A search shows it has been made private. Why? It attracted many comments about some of YD's personal opinions. However, what was valuable was the opinion of the senior Thai monk. If you send a private message to YuttaDhammo, he may allow you to view it. But as I said, my view is it is unwise to get mentally & emotionally involved in the bhikkhuni matter. I have lived in Thailand. Monasteries are not just for meditation
BarbarraBay 10 months ago
This reminds me a bit of Christian organizations rejecting members who accept homosexuality as something that is normally found in life and not a mental illness.
The best thing those rejected Christians have done is to create communities that can accept their beliefs and life styles.
Best of luck to your peace efforts, though I think you may be talking to a brick wall.
lukuleles 11 months ago 3
Its such a shame that sometimes tradition gets in the way of Truth. Religeon should adapt to the environment, or else it will go extinct. Ajahn Brahm is one of the most kindest person Ive seen. He has done nothing but shown western people the better side of Buddhism.
Priddik 11 months ago 3
@Priddik, I agree with your positive view of Ajahn Brahm.
But it should be noted that the Buddha did allow women to be ordained, and is said to be the first religion to have allowed such equality. So Ajahn does not stand against genuine Buddhist tradition!
iamgoddard 11 months ago
Stay strong and keep to the right path! THANK YOU for standing for equality! The Thai female monastic is just sad. I've been to Thailand and I've seen the way those unordained nuns live. It's just wrong and I'm embarrassed by the behavior of Wat Pah Pong monks!
ehipassiko 11 months ago