Holy shit, you ppl are STILL arguing over this? Why continue when it's obvious that the opposing side will not change their stance. Why not instead recognise that instead of spamming this board that if ppl weren't so stupid to get knocked up in the first place, then there would be no need for abortion. Nobody would complain about having thier rights taken away and nobody would scream baby killer.
I can see why you're desperately trying to claim I'd do that. Nice attempt to cover for yourself, that website is a hackjob. No sources to back up claims or citations to actual events. I had to look up a ton of the names separately and the claims connecting them to the pro choice movement are pathetic and laughable.
For example: Lavern Ward - was a woman who murdered a pregnant woman and stole her fetus while high on crack. Why? She wanted to claim the baby as her own, which she tried to do. What the hell does that have to do with abortion?
Milos Klvana did not do abortions, he handled homebirths. The criminal charges came from high-risk pregnancy newborns who died at birth due to complications he should have forseen.
Um, what? How the hell did I defend that? Your website claimed she was "pro abortion." I just stated the facts of the case and showed how that website of yours baselessly distorted the facts to favor its agenda.
@loner1878 So your selection of the Republican murder thing wasn't a move to discredit me as part of your personal agenda? Please.....
And defending a crack whore who killed another woman's baby out of jealousy? Oh your precious Donna Lieberman defends drug use too, dosen't suprise me.
Dosen't suprise me that you would defend it too. It was only a fetus, right?
Why would it be? He was republican, I stated it as a fact. Want to warp that somehow?
I said clearly I was not defending her in any way. Please make clear how I am instead of blanket statements. But of course you don't seem to like facts. Forgotten the "she was pro-abortion" argument, have you? Try another tactic.
I didn't say anything about drugs. Stop making up stories dude.
Dude, you're just grapsing at straws. Its pathetic really.
@loner1878 Straws? What, because I examined every angle?
I know she was pro-abortion, and you said that it's not an abortion related murder because it was ripped from another woman's womb. Isn't that in itself a form of child termination?
So she was Pro-Abortion, yet took the other child because she wanted it for herself. Don't you think that's just a LITTLE messed up?
If you had actually examined every angle you wouldn't be using that source.
So you knew her personally? WTF? She attempted to steal the fetus so she could pretend it was her own. This is not an uncommon crime unfortunately. If anything its an especially twisted form of kidnapping.
I'll ask this again - how the hell are you inferring I thought that was right or not messed up?Of course it is. Whats wrong with you? You must really be desperate.
Was there a vigil for the Pro-Life man shot and killed by a Pro-Choice man in Owosso, Michigan, last year? The media buried THAT one really quick, but somehow it's a big deal when a pro-choice doctor gets killed.
I'm not saying that either killing was right, but the way the media handles things will see them chasing the ambulance and laying guilt on the entire caste of Pro-Lifers, and not the individual crime. And that IS wrong.
Why didn't pro lifers organize a vigil? No one was stopping them.
There was plently of news on it, don't pretend otherwise. I think his personal life made him an unappealing martyr.
Its because of years of harrasment and terrorist acts (arson, bombings, letter bombs and anthrax letters - long before 2001) that have been launched against abortion facilities and doctors. Seven murders (out of seventeen attempted). Thats only the tip of the iceberg. You can't compare the two.
@loner1878 First...the media had SOME coverage of the Pro-Life murder
in Owosso, but they didn't make a big deal out of it like this Tiller thing.
Just the same, if there were acts of terrorism against an NRA building, or a Pro-Life clinic, or anything on the Right, the media would bury it. BUT, let it happen to the Left Wingers, and it's automatically an act of terrorism. So as you said, "don't pretend otherwise."
What you are failing to realize is that there are no actions like that against pro life organizations. So your comparison is that of an apple to an orange.
The NRA has a huge lobby and supporters, don't pretend nothing would happen in the media.
So whatever happened to the Fox news in regards to this incident? Is that part of "teh liberul bias!" media machine now?
@loner1878 So, the "organization" has more rights than the individual?
Oh, I see...the man in Owosso didn't tow your moral-political-philosophcal line, so he deserved to "get it?"
Whatever happened to two wrongs NOT making a right? It was still a human life taken, regardless of politics. That's my point.Stop blaming Fox (if you can for 5 minutes) and realize that 2 wrongs don't make a right. I don't see what part of this you or anyone else dosen't understand.
@loner1878 I asked you, if you or the Left felt any sadness about Pro-Lifer
Jim Pouillon's murder, and you dodged the question with your comparison of individual acts to acts against an organization and it's facilities (abortion clinics.) Thus my response about organizations. You kinda' started "that" ball rolling...
When you dismiss individual acts of violence in lieu of the bigger acts, yes one would wonder if you were downplaying the smaller act for the bigger one.
Did you or the Right feel any for Dr Tiller? Or Dr David Gunn? Dr. George Patterson? Dr. John Britton? Dr. Barnett Slepian? Clinic escort James Barrett? Receptionists Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols? Security guard Robert Sanderson?
My feelings are it should not have happened, it did nothing for anyone or any cause. But I don't do crocodile tears (what I saw a lot of right wingers doing.)
How exactly am I dismissing individual acts? Thats what most
@loner1878 Do you or the Left feel any for Jim Pouillon?
As to your laundry list of Pro-Life violence, do some Internet research and you'll find many more acts of Pro-Choice violence from across the world and in the US (listed by State) and ask yourself if you or the Left feel anything for THESE people as well.
Of course, you can dismiss it as Fox rhetoric, or some other inadmissible evidence based on your bias. But it's out there, do the research.
Many more acts? Don't make me laugh. "Its out there, do the research." Nice cop out. If you make claims be prepared to back them up.
"Opponents of choice have directed more than 6,100 reported acts of violence against abortion providers since 1977, including bombings, arsons, death threats, kidnappings, and assaults, as well as more than 156,000 reported acts of disruption, including bomb threats and harassing calls."
@loner1878 Check your homepage, there's a message with a link to a good starter page. And don't YOU cop out by dismissing it as Fox rhetoric or manufactured data.
@loner1878 I read a LOT of websites, that wasn't random. And if you are going
to excuse or dismiss ONE Pro-Life website as inadmissible, then you will dismiss them ALL as credible. Seen it before.
People like you (and your precious Donna Lieberman) are the reason why society thinks so little of women. Loving women who gave birth to and raised their kids (and not killed them for selfish reasons) are REAL women any day of the week. They put you and yours to shame any day of the week.
Ad hominem - the final tactic of someone who has nothing of substance to say. How typical of your side, present them with facts and get a temper tantrum in return.
LOL "real women." You must be right, you used CAPS.
1 out of 3 women will have an abortion in their lifetime. 61% of women who have abortions already have children and feel it would compromise care to their existing shildren to have another. Even more women go on to have children after abortions.
If there are a lot of websites, why use that lousy one? I dimissed the one you showed me because it had no sources and had ridiculous examples that were easily debunked.
What the hell kind of logic are you using? Clearly an excuse to stop providing your so called proof (claiming "you will dismiss them all").
@loner1878 OK, so how do you view prostitution then?
Are women victims in THAT business? They bring it on themselves.
How many women either took their kid(s) with them while they serviced their johns, or did it in the room next to where they sleep? And how many women SELL their kids for money for their drugs?
How many babies wind up in garbage cans?
More than you know, so please don't preach to me about child abuse and neglect when some it comes right from women themselves.
Why the hell are you bringing up prostitution? Another desperate attempt to slander and make up stories to suit your needs? (lets ignore the serious problem of human trafficking and sexual slavery since it would make you have to actually think.)
So all women who abuse their kids are prostitutes?
You can't grasp what I said, can you? You're going to tell me that some prostitutes DON'T subject their kids to the lifestyle? Abusive live-in johns,
being drug along with them on their sex-drug runs, ect.
It's only one example, (but a prominent one)
And you never addressed the issue of whores who dump their kids in garbage cans to avoid 21 years of responsibilty. You can't accept that women abuse their kids too, can you?
You keep dancing around my questions. This wans't about prostitutes, you randomly jumped off on a ridiculous tangent about all abusive mothers being prostitutes.
I didn't adress it because it has nothing to do with out discussion and is an obvious attempt at a distraction I'm not falling for.
@loner1878 First off...I was using prostitution as an example of the so called "abuse" that YOU called me out on when you said that women and children get shown love by being abused by men.
I called on prostitution because A-it's an example where women bring abuse on themselves, and B:because some women DO abuse (and allow their johns) to abuse their children in pursuit of sexual pleasure and money.
All I was saying, is if you think men only abuse, then what were your thoughts on THIS?
@loner1878 The real reason you're "not falling for it" is because there's nothing to fall for. You just don't want to hear that women abuse children just as well (and sometimes worse) than men, and you can't accept it.
If you can't see that I was taking a different road to your answer, does NOT mean I gave you the wrong answer. But you dismissed all of them, under the excuse that they were irrelevant, and then agreed with some of it when it suited your needs. NOW whose a hypocrite?
I'm very well aware that many women are abusers. I never denied it or said otherwise. The points you were bringing up were unrelated tangents that had nothing to do with the original subject.
@Shawnster65 The problem is that you're conflating actual child abuse, with abortion. That is just powerful stupid and quite insulting to anyone who has actually been a victim of abuse.
@juliewashere88 NO-I was redressing Loner's question about child and women abuse by men (as she seems to think only men abuse women and children) by asking her if she thought that prostitution wasn't abuse of women and children (as some drag their kids into their lifestyles. If you saw it as such, I apologize but that's not the case. It was one example, but abuse nonetheless.
I NEVER tried to equate abortion with child abuse. That's YOUR story..
But Loner seems to be unable to understand, that the same thing can be said in different ways...and, on the matter of source information, SHE was the one who constantly dismissed all my sources as "hacked" or "manufactured."
And that, in a way, is another form of rejecting any or all roads that may lead to a sliver of the truth. And we know that where there's an ounce, there may be an entire mother lode. That's what she's afraid of.
@loner1878 The Hippocratic Oath itself condemns abortion:
"I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion."
As we see, todays' society has made it the "Hypocritic" Oath. And you helped.
So just remember that the next time you visit your OB-GYN or your regular MD.
Oh, and be sure to call them "biased" when one of them tell you that THEY don't believe in abortion.
Haha, no it doesn't condem abortion. Hippocrates banned abortion by PESSARY because he deemed it too dangerous for the woman (risk of infections and limited surgical precision). He supported the use of herbs and vigorous excerise to terminate pregnancies (there are documented accounts of his perscibing both to help terminate pregancies).
No, a lethal drug to a person (that line clearly comes before the abortion by pessary line). Sorry, but Greek society did not count the unborn as a person.
Fatal medicines from unintentional overdoses and unpredictable side effects were quite normal in that time. Medicine was in its early stages. Hippocrates meant intentional poisons. There are many herbs known to cause abortions, Egyptian and Greek phycisians knew them well.
@loner1878 "Sorry, but Greek society did not count the unborn as a person."
Oh no, unless the child was perfect enough to be a Spartan warrior. They threw babies over cliffs if they were flawed in any way. Nice society you defend...
There you go again, putting words in my mouth. YOU brought up the Greeks as an anti-abortion example despite the fact that you seemed to already know they commonly left newborns to die of exposure (Hippocrates never wrote any opposition that practice, funny huh?)
On, and FYI, ancient Geece did not consist of Sparta alone. That was only one or many separate Greek states.
"Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy."
So if we have female doctors who are in the field of abortion, in effect, an instrument to perform abortion (IE a scalpel or suction device) IS an abortive remedy, and it IS being handed to a woman.
So this violates the Oath further by allowing women to perform the procedure in modern day times as the instrument is in their hands for the purpose described.
Hippocrates did not write the "modern" version of the oath. That is a misrepresentation from whoever translated it - a more appropriate line would be "Similarly I will not use an unsafe abortion method on a woman." The modern oath does not include that line so the point is moot.
@loner1878 "Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy."
Prescribing herbs for the purpose of abortion IS giving an abortive
remedy. So here's another violation of The Oath. More "Hippo"cracy.
But you'll no doubt see this as "twisting" words again. Funny you should accuse,
because I find the liberal media and civil liberties groups do the same thing when they seek an alternate meaning aimed at dismantling someone's rights for THEIR agenda.
@loner1878 Sure the ACLU defends religion: They want to erase "In God We Trust" from our money, and they constantly accuse schoolsystems who advocate condoms and abstinence of violating "church and state" rules. They use the excuse that it's the same view as the church, and thus moot in the schoolsystem.
Nice way to scapegoat the church AND prevent a common sense viewpoint at the same time.
Oh and Flag Burning too, that's REAL love for the country.
I'll send you a real link about the ACLU defending religious groups since I can't post it here, but I'll tell you you have a pretty warped view of what the ACLU really does.
Thomas Jefferson once said dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Free speech is one of the things central to the heart of this country. Flag burning (not just the US flag) falls under that whether you like it or not, the courts decided that not me.
@loner1878 Please..we all know how the Left and the ACLU stands on Patriotism....Left Wing patriotism=grass roots movements. Right Wing patriotism=terrorism. Spare me.
Same with the Flag...OK to burn our flag, but try buring "someone else's" and see what happens. Want a more symbolic gesture? Wash the flag.
And if someone cannot support the colors he lives under, perhaps he should find another flag.
@Shawnster65 You know who the REAL winner is here? Not you, not me, but BABIES who have been born and given a chance at life...One look into their little faces, with their shiny eyes, and their little hands and feet, and you can see a TRUE miracle has taken place.
And that, is more powerful than the decision to willfully end a life out of selfishness, or just to hurt the ones they love.
Say what you want, because babies RULE, and people like you DON'T. Have a nice life.
Wow, you must be right - you used CAPS! How can I argue with that?
LOL at your little "miracle" speech. Make it obvious you've never seen a baby with Tay-Sachs disease or a crack baby or been out on an emergency call to find a baby severely abused (just to describe the tip of the icerberg). I How pleasantly naive and fortunate life must have been for you so far.
@loner1878 Hey, YOU chose to work with Planned Parenthood, not me.
You knew what you were getting into. Don't conflate my defense of normal healthy babies who have NO reason for termination, with ANY kind of insensitvity towards disabled children. LOL at that.
Crack babies? Use drugs, run the risk. You know what you're getting into. Shouldn't bother you Planned Parenthood guys, since it keeps you in business anyway. Have fun....
Not sure what you're referring to there, but I'm proud to volunteer with and support Planned Parenthood.
FYI, abortions make up only 3% of Planned Parenthood's services. PP offers low cost birth control, low cost maternal care, screening for breast, cervical and testicular cancers; pregnancy testing and pregnancy options counseling, testing and treatment for std's, comprehensive sex education, menopause treatments, vasectomies and tubal ligations.
I didn't downplay anything. I explained my point of view focusing on the facts rather than an emotional rampage. I framed Dr. Tiller's murder the same way in this discussion. But it looks like you have your tunnel vision on again...
I never mentioned Bill O'Rielly, not sure where you got that. I did mention Fox news and questioned why this wasn't a main story for them but I guess that went right through your head.
Pretend its "selfish" if you wish. But the truth is a healthy pregnancy doesn't mean its all good and happy. Issues such as finances, having too many children you're struggling to care for, an abusive relationship, rape or incest - thats only the tip of the iceberg.
But apparently its beyond your ability to understand.
@loner1878 The Boy Scout ritual is respectful and time honored, and not just to look cool in fron of your friends, or piss all over the country because you can't have your way.
Again, don't conflate quiet and respectful ceremony for the symbol of our nation, as an excuse to destroy it in the name of Free Speech. The two don't compare.
@loner1878 Until you can prove that my sources are biased, AND until
you can prove that the Hippocratic Oath's passage on abortion ITSELF is also "biased" or "hacked", I'll be waiting.
Let's see you argue with a millennia-old doctrine that guides the hand of all doctors. Not that you won't TRY to find a way to claim that Hippocrates was related to Glenn Beck or Bill O' Reilly. And you call ME an idiot...
I did prove your source was faulty with my examples. You're simply refusing to aknowledge otherwise.
See my post on the Hippocratic oath. Abortion is a millenia-old procedure and was not banned in ancient Greece or Rome by any law. Hippocrates himself is recorded as having overseen procedures.
@juliewashere88 Additionally, I apologize for my "Do you understand in Zwahili?" remark. A bit of sarcasm goes with this stuff sometimes, so I am sorry. I shouldn't have said that to you.
@juliewashere88 Nice of the two of you to think that I was associating abortion and child abuse, because you have to ALIVE in order to be ABUSED. Abused children sometimes wake up in the morning, but ABORTED children DON'T Do I have to spell it out for you in Zwahili? I thught so...one Zwahili to English dictionary coming up ( no worries, the small change drawer from Planned Parenthood will pay for one for both of you.)
@loner1878 On this note...you know Donna Lieberman wants to abolish drug laws in NY, and open the door for more of the same? How many more women (as well as men) will be doing crazier things to get drug money? Including, but not limited to child solicitation.
if you truly care about kids (and I hope you do) I hope you will disagree with this part of her agenda, and continue making people aware that child abuse is a unisex affair. That's only fair.
old is in a detox ward because his parents were getting high in front of him. The next time a kid drowns in a bathtub because his parents are too stoned to get off the couch to check up on him.
Oh, not to mention all the crack babies born w\o fingers, toes, or whatever, and remember that the abolished drug laws made it possible. The children thank you and you lack of concern over drugs and kids.
Quit being a drama queen. You do realize there is a massive war on drugs in this country and strict laws against them - Yet all the events you mentioned have taken place way more than once despite the legal penalties and enforcement action. So much for your little argument there.
I said I dont care about one person's position on drugs, but of coruse you clearly look for every possible opportunity to warp a statement and make stupid attempts at arguments.
@loner1878 As you clearly trivialized the abuse heaped upon women by prostitutes and their johns in the symbiotic relationship they forge, which inebitably involves children in some cases. And I guess that's not enough proof of abuse for you?
Oh I forgot, only MEN abuse children never women. I guess you defend Casey Anthony and Andrea Yates too?
"Yeah, the sky high rates of child abuse and neglect in this country are testament to your "loving women" claim, I'm sure, LOL. Shows that you know.
loner1878 4 days ago ."
So I guess you're "not" accusing men to the pardon of women. Oh of course not.... Oh no you're not biased...not at all. I suppose you're a member of the Casey Anthony and Andrea Yates fan clubs too...
@loner1878 OK, we need to get back on track. Thru our bilateral derailing of the thread, my original question was this: Does the Left feel for Jim Pouillon as well as Dr. Tiller?
Is Pouillon's murder a hate crime as well as Tiller's? YES. And I will stand by that because two wrongs do NOT make right. I just want to know if the Left can stop thinking about themselves long enough to recognize the wrongdoing of their own individuals. Yes, or no? You decide.
I answered your question. I'm not the spokesperson for the "left" (as you refer to it). I'm sure there are people who do and people who don't, just like the opposing side for Dr. Tiller.
Its not a hate crime, Dr. Tiller's murder was a terrorist act. That is inarguable.
As for Poullion, maybe it was a hate crime. I haven't seen the official motive for the crime. The last official reports I saw said that the shooter apparently had a "grudge" against Poullion and that he was just one of three people he targeted during his killing spree, all for individual reasons. He is now in prison and will be punished accordingy once the trial happens.
Pouillon's murder was also terroristic, because I consider any murder against ANYONE a terrorist act. To rob someone of life is the ultimate crime. Yes, the shooter had a grudge against Pouillon because he was upset over his graphic Pro-Life signs, and he killed someone else that day as well.
But it's good to see that justice is being addressed and done on both parts. Well said.
Byron Looper - the Republican politician who murdered his ballot opponent because he knew he would lose the election?
Excerpt from his trial:
"Byron Looper is a man obsessed with a burning desire for power." "He knew he didn't have a chance in the fair election to defeat Tommy Burks, and that caused him to formulate a plan to resolve this election with a bullet instead of a ballot."
You're using cases that had nothing to do with abortions. How pathetic and desperate.
@loner1878 Nope, I didn't use that one. There is a list of other crimes on the page besides abortion. That was your plant.
How nice of you to forget the one ABOVE it...the murder of 51 year old Pro-Life minister Jerry Simon,shot thru his window by Eilenn Orstein Janezic in 1993. I remmeber the case, but apparently the media didn't (of course not)
Footnotes:World Magazine, September 18, 1993; "Pro-Life Leader, Pastor Murdered by Avowed Satanist." Life Advocate, November 1993, page 7.
I didn't forget it. I thought those examples for you would make you realize you had some bad sources, but apparently I gave you too much credit.
Once again why did she shoot Jerry Simon? Seems she shot him "to prove her love for Satan." She held the police at bay with the same pistol while reading versus from the Satanic Bible, maybe she was mentally disturbed? Seems to me your side jumped at the opportunity to warp a sensless murder into a selfish cause.
@loner1878 As far as crocodile tears, a crocodile can be on either the right OR left side of the road, so do you see Left Wing crocodile tears as a sin too, or is it just the Right Wing version that's incompatible with humanity?
I don't speak for the "left." I don't personally know anyone who pretended to feel sad but I'm not so arrogant to claim I know every single person's reaction.
@loner1878 Yea, his son who lived away from him for 8 years. All that told me is his son is an angry douche bag. But I see what you mean, maybe he wasn't an angle. Also, Some of Tillers former employees had some more formal but still off putting words for him. Wouldn't be so quick to idolize him like these sheep in the video either.
@loner1878 Yea, God forbid I call people mindlessly cheering on a far left feminist activist at a rally for a sick man who shoved forceps into pre born children's skulls. But I'm sure your good with anyone calling all pro life protesters Religious right wing nutters even if they fit none of those categories.
Careful on the hypocrisy there. You sure seem good with calling all other protestors "far left feminists" (as if thats a bad thing lol) but get your feathers ruffled over the term "right wing nutters.
@loner1878 No, not all pro choice people are like that. I never said all pro choicers act like they are at the rally. I'm referring to the crowd in this video, which they are clearly doing.
Gathering in a respectful vigil after an admired and well respected doctor was murdured? I did that too, right in front of the White House the day the murder took place.
Yeah, his son is "ignorant" because he makes he makes your anti-abortion saviour look like an loon and batterer. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if James Pouillon's younger children thought highly of him. After all, the church/social club that consumed their lives and glorified him has been the dominant force for the past 15-20 years.
Wow! Quite the comeback, "Fuck You." That really sounds like an intellectual comeback don't you think? Oh and by the way... the stupidity didn't come from me, it's came from you. Exactly how is this man a hero? I can name many heroes, but Dr. Tiller and his killer certainly aren't one of them.
Yeah respond to a comment that wasn't aimed at you. The one I was RESPONDING to called for low level thinking. Not worth more.
I don't expect you to understand, I can see its beyond you. But I sure don't know that many people who would wear a bulletproof vest to work each day, get shot in both arms and yet go back to work, and endure daily death threats and harrasment to help women who needed him.
Yeah, respond to a low level intelligence comment with a low level intelligence reply. That's really stupid, all it does is make you look foolish. But I guess you didn't have to drop your intelligence level far now did you?
However, if there was a problem with the fetus that would put the baby and/or mother's life in danger, then I could understand the termination, but if some bimbo with no self-respect can't keep their legs shut, why should the baby pay for the mistake that the mother made? Why should we deny those who don't have a voice a chance at life? So taking lives while "saving" others makes it okay?
@loner1878 No, Tiller did it for all sorts of reasons. Any reason up to 25 weeks Including post viability abortions until birth which was at his sole discretion.
Please define "all sorts of reasons." Rape victims? Women who couldn't make an appointment sooner or afford it before that? And please mind your source.
I could laugh at your characterization of women. One in three women have an abortion in their lifetime, 61% of women who have abortions are already mothers and feel it would be irresponsible to their existing children to have more, married couples have abortions too. I doubt they fit into your narrow mental excuse of "bimbos" (why not bring up men who don't keep it in their pants, huh?)
Characterization of all women as bimbos? No, just the careless and selfish ones. I respect women that can take responsibility for their OWN actions, the same goes for men as well. So that diminishes your idiotic assumption of me being a sexist. 1 out of 4 women? Wow, really shows how much of our country is in a shocking shate of moral decline. But then again look at the divorce rates.
Don't put words in my mouth, sweetheart. I never said that. And how is bringing a child into the world that you have no means to care for responsible, huh?
Its one out of 3. And they are normal women. You might want to learn something. Abortion has been around for thousands of years and was accepted by the church until the middle 18th century.
Nice comments. Shows your mentality. Gonna go watch Fox News next?
Well maybe then I must of misunderstood your comment, but bringing in a child for which you cannot care for IS irresponsible. That's why you try not to get pregnant in the first place. However, I have no problem with sex itself, and I really didn't make that clear. That was a fault on my part. But people should know better that if either partner doesn't wear protection, then they can greatly increase their chances of getting pregnant.
Besides, why should I care what the Church said? The Church has done atrocious things in the past: slavery, genocide, etc... Remember, I said that I was neither right-wing or christian, so you telling me to go watch Fox News and bringing up the Church , trying to associate me with those things really shows how hilariously ignorant you are. I believe that would be an ad hominem. Really, how was that supposed to help your arguement?
@loner1878 Well if at least if you are going attack me for something at least read what I put or ask me about it. If you actually read my post you would have noticed that I refer to these rapists as "no-good assholes." Yet again you lack a valid arguement. Besides, women can't help being raped, it is forced on them. But consentual, the woman has the power to keep her legs shut. If a woman doesn't want to have sex, she should tell her partner, and if he can't accept that, tough shit for him.
Dude, the 50's called. They want their mentality back.
By all means oversimplify this, which is probably the root issue. It's only very recently that women have been allowed to enjoy sex, and a lot of people are still suspicious of women who are free in their sexuality, a leftover from the joyless Puritans who founded this country. Just come out and say it. , I'm so sexually repressed I squeak, any woman who has sex for any reason other than to conceive is a whore."
I keep hearing the question "What if the mother was raped?" That doesn't make it right to make the baby pay for the misdeeds of the no-good rapist. Does it make the baby any less of a person? Why not just give it to a family that can't have kids of their own to love and care for? Why must it die? You're not getting back at that asshole who raped you by doing that.
Don't try to pervert this into a women's right issue, it's really more of a human's right issue. On the contrary of what you might think of me, I am neither right wing or christian. If you can't take these into consideration, then you truly are a heartless bitch with no happiness or love in your life.
Isn't birth control preventing a life? Arguably so is abstinence. We wouldn't be here if those things had been used. And you know what? It wouldn't make a difference.
Isn't birth control preventing a life? Arguably so is abstinence. We wouldn't be here if those things had been used. And you know what? It wouldn't make a difference.
Isn't birth control preventing a life? Arguably so is abstinence. We wouldn't be here if those things had been used. And you know what? It wouldn't make a difference.
Also, the why didnt you keep your legs closed thing is pretty funny anyway, considering that many of the abortions performed in America are on married women who already have kids.
So I guess that means that once you get done having kids or go through menopause you shouldnt have sex anymore?
Well if you are on menopause, then you can have all the sex you want without having the worry of getting pregnant, but until then, participants should practice safe sex. If everyone did that, the chances of getting pregnant would be very slim, However some still do, but if you did everything in your power to keep from getting pregnant using safe sex practices, then you should not be called a bimbo. But abortion should not be a justification or solution.
@loner1878 Mind my sources? Where are you getting your info from? Planned Parenthood or RHRealityCheck? Please. If Tiller only performed abortions or more appropriately pregnancy terminations when they were only truly needed then there wouldn't have been much controversy around him would there? I actually personally know a woman who was refereed to his clinic to have a late term abortion by her choice for the state would not allow it here.
Its a neutral source. I work closely with a lot of abortion rights organizations so most of my information is firsthand. But I reccomend the Guttmacher Institue, its a neutral source if you need one.
I work closely with a lot of abortion rights organizations so most of my information is firsthand. For a good neutral source I reccomend the Guttmacher Institute.
Anti choicers did their best to smear him and called for baseless investigations, whcih never resulted in a single charge. That should tell you something.
I work closely with a lot of abortion rights organizations so most of my information is firsthand. For a good neutral source I reccomend the Guttmacher Institute.
Anti choicers did their best to smear him and called for baseless investigations, whcih never resulted in a single charge. That should tell you something.
A good condom + birth control = NO BABY! :D
But of course understanding that could be a problem for many Americans.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
Holy shit, you ppl are STILL arguing over this? Why continue when it's obvious that the opposing side will not change their stance. Why not instead recognise that instead of spamming this board that if ppl weren't so stupid to get knocked up in the first place, then there would be no need for abortion. Nobody would complain about having thier rights taken away and nobody would scream baby killer.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
I sent you a message this time, not a comment with a link that you can easily delete.
But feel free to delete that one too, and turn around and again accuse me of copping out for having no source material. I did my part. Honestly too.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I can see why you're desperately trying to claim I'd do that. Nice attempt to cover for yourself, that website is a hackjob. No sources to back up claims or citations to actual events. I had to look up a ton of the names separately and the claims connecting them to the pro choice movement are pathetic and laughable.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
For example: Lavern Ward - was a woman who murdered a pregnant woman and stole her fetus while high on crack. Why? She wanted to claim the baby as her own, which she tried to do. What the hell does that have to do with abortion?
Milos Klvana did not do abortions, he handled homebirths. The criminal charges came from high-risk pregnancy newborns who died at birth due to complications he should have forseen.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Stealing another woman's fetus while high on crack. I can't believe you would defend such an action.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Um, what? How the hell did I defend that? Your website claimed she was "pro abortion." I just stated the facts of the case and showed how that website of yours baselessly distorted the facts to favor its agenda.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 So your selection of the Republican murder thing wasn't a move to discredit me as part of your personal agenda? Please.....
And defending a crack whore who killed another woman's baby out of jealousy? Oh your precious Donna Lieberman defends drug use too, dosen't suprise me.
Dosen't suprise me that you would defend it too. It was only a fetus, right?
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Why would it be? He was republican, I stated it as a fact. Want to warp that somehow?
I said clearly I was not defending her in any way. Please make clear how I am instead of blanket statements. But of course you don't seem to like facts. Forgotten the "she was pro-abortion" argument, have you? Try another tactic.
I didn't say anything about drugs. Stop making up stories dude.
Dude, you're just grapsing at straws. Its pathetic really.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Straws? What, because I examined every angle?
I know she was pro-abortion, and you said that it's not an abortion related murder because it was ripped from another woman's womb. Isn't that in itself a form of child termination?
So she was Pro-Abortion, yet took the other child because she wanted it for herself. Don't you think that's just a LITTLE messed up?
Do you really think that was right?
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
If you had actually examined every angle you wouldn't be using that source.
So you knew her personally? WTF? She attempted to steal the fetus so she could pretend it was her own. This is not an uncommon crime unfortunately. If anything its an especially twisted form of kidnapping.
I'll ask this again - how the hell are you inferring I thought that was right or not messed up?Of course it is. Whats wrong with you? You must really be desperate.
loner1878 1 year ago
Was there a vigil for the Pro-Life man shot and killed by a Pro-Choice man in Owosso, Michigan, last year? The media buried THAT one really quick, but somehow it's a big deal when a pro-choice doctor gets killed.
I'm not saying that either killing was right, but the way the media handles things will see them chasing the ambulance and laying guilt on the entire caste of Pro-Lifers, and not the individual crime. And that IS wrong.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Why didn't pro lifers organize a vigil? No one was stopping them.
There was plently of news on it, don't pretend otherwise. I think his personal life made him an unappealing martyr.
Its because of years of harrasment and terrorist acts (arson, bombings, letter bombs and anthrax letters - long before 2001) that have been launched against abortion facilities and doctors. Seven murders (out of seventeen attempted). Thats only the tip of the iceberg. You can't compare the two.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 First...the media had SOME coverage of the Pro-Life murder
in Owosso, but they didn't make a big deal out of it like this Tiller thing.
Just the same, if there were acts of terrorism against an NRA building, or a Pro-Life clinic, or anything on the Right, the media would bury it. BUT, let it happen to the Left Wingers, and it's automatically an act of terrorism. So as you said, "don't pretend otherwise."
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
What you are failing to realize is that there are no actions like that against pro life organizations. So your comparison is that of an apple to an orange.
The NRA has a huge lobby and supporters, don't pretend nothing would happen in the media.
So whatever happened to the Fox news in regards to this incident? Is that part of "teh liberul bias!" media machine now?
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 So, the "organization" has more rights than the individual?
Oh, I see...the man in Owosso didn't tow your moral-political-philosophcal line, so he deserved to "get it?"
Whatever happened to two wrongs NOT making a right? It was still a human life taken, regardless of politics. That's my point.Stop blaming Fox (if you can for 5 minutes) and realize that 2 wrongs don't make a right. I don't see what part of this you or anyone else dosen't understand.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
You used examples of organizations in your post, not individuals. That is what I responded to.
Quit putting words in my mouth dude. I never said it was right. The person who shot him is in prison and rightfully so.
You brought up the media so don't even try and pin blame for that, m'kay?
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 I asked you, if you or the Left felt any sadness about Pro-Lifer
Jim Pouillon's murder, and you dodged the question with your comparison of individual acts to acts against an organization and it's facilities (abortion clinics.) Thus my response about organizations. You kinda' started "that" ball rolling...
When you dismiss individual acts of violence in lieu of the bigger acts, yes one would wonder if you were downplaying the smaller act for the bigger one.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Did you or the Right feel any for Dr Tiller? Or Dr David Gunn? Dr. George Patterson? Dr. John Britton? Dr. Barnett Slepian? Clinic escort James Barrett? Receptionists Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols? Security guard Robert Sanderson?
My feelings are it should not have happened, it did nothing for anyone or any cause. But I don't do crocodile tears (what I saw a lot of right wingers doing.)
How exactly am I dismissing individual acts? Thats what most
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Do you or the Left feel any for Jim Pouillon?
As to your laundry list of Pro-Life violence, do some Internet research and you'll find many more acts of Pro-Choice violence from across the world and in the US (listed by State) and ask yourself if you or the Left feel anything for THESE people as well.
Of course, you can dismiss it as Fox rhetoric, or some other inadmissible evidence based on your bias. But it's out there, do the research.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Many more acts? Don't make me laugh. "Its out there, do the research." Nice cop out. If you make claims be prepared to back them up.
"Opponents of choice have directed more than 6,100 reported acts of violence against abortion providers since 1977, including bombings, arsons, death threats, kidnappings, and assaults, as well as more than 156,000 reported acts of disruption, including bomb threats and harassing calls."
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Check your homepage, there's a message with a link to a good starter page. And don't YOU cop out by dismissing it as Fox rhetoric or manufactured data.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@loner1878 Oh I see you already deleted the link I sent you at your homepage. You already copped out.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I'm not dumb enough to follow a random link.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 I read a LOT of websites, that wasn't random. And if you are going
to excuse or dismiss ONE Pro-Life website as inadmissible, then you will dismiss them ALL as credible. Seen it before.
People like you (and your precious Donna Lieberman) are the reason why society thinks so little of women. Loving women who gave birth to and raised their kids (and not killed them for selfish reasons) are REAL women any day of the week. They put you and yours to shame any day of the week.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Ad hominem - the final tactic of someone who has nothing of substance to say. How typical of your side, present them with facts and get a temper tantrum in return.
LOL "real women." You must be right, you used CAPS.
1 out of 3 women will have an abortion in their lifetime. 61% of women who have abortions already have children and feel it would compromise care to their existing shildren to have another. Even more women go on to have children after abortions.
loner1878 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
If there are a lot of websites, why use that lousy one? I dimissed the one you showed me because it had no sources and had ridiculous examples that were easily debunked.
What the hell kind of logic are you using? Clearly an excuse to stop providing your so called proof (claiming "you will dismiss them all").
loner1878 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
No, people like you who have no understanding and their heads in the sand are the reason women have to deal with being looked down upon.
Yeah, the sky high rates of child abuse and neglect in this country are testament to your "loving women" claim, I'm sure, LOL. Shows that you know.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 OK, so how do you view prostitution then?
Are women victims in THAT business? They bring it on themselves.
How many women either took their kid(s) with them while they serviced their johns, or did it in the room next to where they sleep? And how many women SELL their kids for money for their drugs?
How many babies wind up in garbage cans?
More than you know, so please don't preach to me about child abuse and neglect when some it comes right from women themselves.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Why the hell are you bringing up prostitution? Another desperate attempt to slander and make up stories to suit your needs? (lets ignore the serious problem of human trafficking and sexual slavery since it would make you have to actually think.)
So all women who abuse their kids are prostitutes?
You're a real idiot, you know that?
loner1878 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@loner1878 "You're a real idiot, you know that?
You can't grasp what I said, can you? You're going to tell me that some prostitutes DON'T subject their kids to the lifestyle? Abusive live-in johns,
being drug along with them on their sex-drug runs, ect.
It's only one example, (but a prominent one)
And you never addressed the issue of whores who dump their kids in garbage cans to avoid 21 years of responsibilty. You can't accept that women abuse their kids too, can you?
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
You keep dancing around my questions. This wans't about prostitutes, you randomly jumped off on a ridiculous tangent about all abusive mothers being prostitutes.
I didn't adress it because it has nothing to do with out discussion and is an obvious attempt at a distraction I'm not falling for.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 First off...I was using prostitution as an example of the so called "abuse" that YOU called me out on when you said that women and children get shown love by being abused by men.
I called on prostitution because A-it's an example where women bring abuse on themselves, and B:because some women DO abuse (and allow their johns) to abuse their children in pursuit of sexual pleasure and money.
All I was saying, is if you think men only abuse, then what were your thoughts on THIS?
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I never brought up abuse by men. What are you talking about?
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 The real reason you're "not falling for it" is because there's nothing to fall for. You just don't want to hear that women abuse children just as well (and sometimes worse) than men, and you can't accept it.
If you can't see that I was taking a different road to your answer, does NOT mean I gave you the wrong answer. But you dismissed all of them, under the excuse that they were irrelevant, and then agreed with some of it when it suited your needs. NOW whose a hypocrite?
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I'm very well aware that many women are abusers. I never denied it or said otherwise. The points you were bringing up were unrelated tangents that had nothing to do with the original subject.
loner1878 1 year ago
@Shawnster65 The problem is that you're conflating actual child abuse, with abortion. That is just powerful stupid and quite insulting to anyone who has actually been a victim of abuse.
juliewashere88 1 year ago
@juliewashere88 NO-I was redressing Loner's question about child and women abuse by men (as she seems to think only men abuse women and children) by asking her if she thought that prostitution wasn't abuse of women and children (as some drag their kids into their lifestyles. If you saw it as such, I apologize but that's not the case. It was one example, but abuse nonetheless.
I NEVER tried to equate abortion with child abuse. That's YOUR story..
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65 Perhaps I misunderstood. That is what it looked like you were saying.
juliewashere88 1 year ago
@juliewashere88 Thank you. I make mistakes too.
But Loner seems to be unable to understand, that the same thing can be said in different ways...and, on the matter of source information, SHE was the one who constantly dismissed all my sources as "hacked" or "manufactured."
And that, in a way, is another form of rejecting any or all roads that may lead to a sliver of the truth. And we know that where there's an ounce, there may be an entire mother lode. That's what she's afraid of.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
You only gave one source that was clearly unreliable and biased. If you had genuine proof I'd look at it.
loner1878 1 year ago
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Shawnster65 1 year ago
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Shawnster65 1 year ago
@loner1878 The Hippocratic Oath itself condemns abortion:
"I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion."
As we see, todays' society has made it the "Hypocritic" Oath. And you helped.
So just remember that the next time you visit your OB-GYN or your regular MD.
Oh, and be sure to call them "biased" when one of them tell you that THEY don't believe in abortion.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Haha, no it doesn't condem abortion. Hippocrates banned abortion by PESSARY because he deemed it too dangerous for the woman (risk of infections and limited surgical precision). He supported the use of herbs and vigorous excerise to terminate pregnancies (there are documented accounts of his perscibing both to help terminate pregancies).
Might want to brush up on your Greek history.
loner1878 1 year ago
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Shawnster65 1 year ago
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Shawnster65 1 year ago
@loner1878 It also says:
"I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I
am asked, nor will I advise such a plan."
BUT he IS prescribing herbs in the assist of abortion, so he is clearly giving "lethal drugs." And, with strenuous exercise, he IS clearly "advising
such a plan" as both intend harm to a human life. Baby=human life.
Some women (and men) have also died from herbal use (interaction) past and present so this further violates the Oath in terms of "lethal drugs."
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
No, a lethal drug to a person (that line clearly comes before the abortion by pessary line). Sorry, but Greek society did not count the unborn as a person.
Fatal medicines from unintentional overdoses and unpredictable side effects were quite normal in that time. Medicine was in its early stages. Hippocrates meant intentional poisons. There are many herbs known to cause abortions, Egyptian and Greek phycisians knew them well.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 "Sorry, but Greek society did not count the unborn as a person."
Oh no, unless the child was perfect enough to be a Spartan warrior. They threw babies over cliffs if they were flawed in any way. Nice society you defend...
Do you care for children at all?
Shawnster65 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Shawnster65
@Shawnster65
There you go again, putting words in my mouth. YOU brought up the Greeks as an anti-abortion example despite the fact that you seemed to already know they commonly left newborns to die of exposure (Hippocrates never wrote any opposition that practice, funny huh?)
On, and FYI, ancient Geece did not consist of Sparta alone. That was only one or many separate Greek states.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 From the Modern version of The Oath:
"Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy."
So if we have female doctors who are in the field of abortion, in effect, an instrument to perform abortion (IE a scalpel or suction device) IS an abortive remedy, and it IS being handed to a woman.
So this violates the Oath further by allowing women to perform the procedure in modern day times as the instrument is in their hands for the purpose described.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Hippocrates did not write the "modern" version of the oath. That is a misrepresentation from whoever translated it - a more appropriate line would be "Similarly I will not use an unsafe abortion method on a woman." The modern oath does not include that line so the point is moot.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 "Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy."
Prescribing herbs for the purpose of abortion IS giving an abortive
remedy. So here's another violation of The Oath. More "Hippo"cracy.
But you'll no doubt see this as "twisting" words again. Funny you should accuse,
because I find the liberal media and civil liberties groups do the same thing when they seek an alternate meaning aimed at dismantling someone's rights for THEIR agenda.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
That is not what Hippocrates wrote, so nice try (maybe you should have tried that one before giving me the original, hmm?)
Lol "Hippo"cracy. Clever.
Yeah, bash the civil liberties groups who support the rights of religious groups as much as any other.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Sure the ACLU defends religion: They want to erase "In God We Trust" from our money, and they constantly accuse schoolsystems who advocate condoms and abstinence of violating "church and state" rules. They use the excuse that it's the same view as the church, and thus moot in the schoolsystem.
Nice way to scapegoat the church AND prevent a common sense viewpoint at the same time.
Oh and Flag Burning too, that's REAL love for the country.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I'll send you a real link about the ACLU defending religious groups since I can't post it here, but I'll tell you you have a pretty warped view of what the ACLU really does.
Thomas Jefferson once said dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Free speech is one of the things central to the heart of this country. Flag burning (not just the US flag) falls under that whether you like it or not, the courts decided that not me.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Please..we all know how the Left and the ACLU stands on Patriotism....Left Wing patriotism=grass roots movements. Right Wing patriotism=terrorism. Spare me.
Same with the Flag...OK to burn our flag, but try buring "someone else's" and see what happens. Want a more symbolic gesture? Wash the flag.
And if someone cannot support the colors he lives under, perhaps he should find another flag.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65 You know who the REAL winner is here? Not you, not me, but BABIES who have been born and given a chance at life...One look into their little faces, with their shiny eyes, and their little hands and feet, and you can see a TRUE miracle has taken place.
And that, is more powerful than the decision to willfully end a life out of selfishness, or just to hurt the ones they love.
Say what you want, because babies RULE, and people like you DON'T. Have a nice life.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Wow, you must be right - you used CAPS! How can I argue with that?
LOL at your little "miracle" speech. Make it obvious you've never seen a baby with Tay-Sachs disease or a crack baby or been out on an emergency call to find a baby severely abused (just to describe the tip of the icerberg). I How pleasantly naive and fortunate life must have been for you so far.
Have a nice day.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Hey, YOU chose to work with Planned Parenthood, not me.
You knew what you were getting into. Don't conflate my defense of normal healthy babies who have NO reason for termination, with ANY kind of insensitvity towards disabled children. LOL at that.
Crack babies? Use drugs, run the risk. You know what you're getting into. Shouldn't bother you Planned Parenthood guys, since it keeps you in business anyway. Have fun....
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Not sure what you're referring to there, but I'm proud to volunteer with and support Planned Parenthood.
FYI, abortions make up only 3% of Planned Parenthood's services. PP offers low cost birth control, low cost maternal care, screening for breast, cervical and testicular cancers; pregnancy testing and pregnancy options counseling, testing and treatment for std's, comprehensive sex education, menopause treatments, vasectomies and tubal ligations.
loner1878 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Way to cop out of a real argument, dude. I'll miss the laughs.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Cop out? You downplay the killing of Jim Pouillon, (or any Pro-Lifer)
with "terrorism" as YOUR cop out to elevate Dr Tiller to priority status and make Pouillon obsolete. Nice excuse..
You blame Bill O' Reilly for Dr. Tiller instead of seeing it as an act of an
individual. Another copout..I thought liberals preached individual accountability
The women who use abortion to terminate NORMAL, healthy pregnancies for their own selfish reasons. And you call ME a cop out.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I didn't downplay anything. I explained my point of view focusing on the facts rather than an emotional rampage. I framed Dr. Tiller's murder the same way in this discussion. But it looks like you have your tunnel vision on again...
I never mentioned Bill O'Rielly, not sure where you got that. I did mention Fox news and questioned why this wasn't a main story for them but I guess that went right through your head.
loner1878 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Pretend its "selfish" if you wish. But the truth is a healthy pregnancy doesn't mean its all good and happy. Issues such as finances, having too many children you're struggling to care for, an abusive relationship, rape or incest - thats only the tip of the iceberg.
But apparently its beyond your ability to understand.
loner1878 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
If you're going to have your head stuck in the sand it takes all the fun out of debating.
Bring it up with the courts, dude, not me.
Fun fact! Flag burning is considered a respectful way of disposing of an old flag.
loner1878 1 year ago
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Shawnster65 1 year ago
@loner1878 The Boy Scout ritual is respectful and time honored, and not just to look cool in fron of your friends, or piss all over the country because you can't have your way.
Again, don't conflate quiet and respectful ceremony for the symbol of our nation, as an excuse to destroy it in the name of Free Speech. The two don't compare.
So as you say, have a nice day.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Go whine to the courts. They interpret the constitution, not me.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Until you can prove that my sources are biased, AND until
you can prove that the Hippocratic Oath's passage on abortion ITSELF is also "biased" or "hacked", I'll be waiting.
Let's see you argue with a millennia-old doctrine that guides the hand of all doctors. Not that you won't TRY to find a way to claim that Hippocrates was related to Glenn Beck or Bill O' Reilly. And you call ME an idiot...
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I did prove your source was faulty with my examples. You're simply refusing to aknowledge otherwise.
See my post on the Hippocratic oath. Abortion is a millenia-old procedure and was not banned in ancient Greece or Rome by any law. Hippocrates himself is recorded as having overseen procedures.
loner1878 1 year ago
@juliewashere88 Additionally, I apologize for my "Do you understand in Zwahili?" remark. A bit of sarcasm goes with this stuff sometimes, so I am sorry. I shouldn't have said that to you.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@juliewashere88 Nice of the two of you to think that I was associating abortion and child abuse, because you have to ALIVE in order to be ABUSED. Abused children sometimes wake up in the morning, but ABORTED children DON'T Do I have to spell it out for you in Zwahili? I thught so...one Zwahili to English dictionary coming up ( no worries, the small change drawer from Planned Parenthood will pay for one for both of you.)
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@loner1878 On this note...you know Donna Lieberman wants to abolish drug laws in NY, and open the door for more of the same? How many more women (as well as men) will be doing crazier things to get drug money? Including, but not limited to child solicitation.
if you truly care about kids (and I hope you do) I hope you will disagree with this part of her agenda, and continue making people aware that child abuse is a unisex affair. That's only fair.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I don't care about that. I had never heard of Donna Lieberman before this video. Quit changing the subject.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 No I know you don't care....
just remember that the next time a 5 year
old is in a detox ward because his parents were getting high in front of him. The next time a kid drowns in a bathtub because his parents are too stoned to get off the couch to check up on him.
Oh, not to mention all the crack babies born w\o fingers, toes, or whatever, and remember that the abolished drug laws made it possible. The children thank you and you lack of concern over drugs and kids.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Quit being a drama queen. You do realize there is a massive war on drugs in this country and strict laws against them - Yet all the events you mentioned have taken place way more than once despite the legal penalties and enforcement action. So much for your little argument there.
I said I dont care about one person's position on drugs, but of coruse you clearly look for every possible opportunity to warp a statement and make stupid attempts at arguments.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 As you clearly trivialized the abuse heaped upon women by prostitutes and their johns in the symbiotic relationship they forge, which inebitably involves children in some cases. And I guess that's not enough proof of abuse for you?
Oh I forgot, only MEN abuse children never women. I guess you defend Casey Anthony and Andrea Yates too?
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
*Sigh* Where did I say that only men abuse children?
That's right, I didn't. Another baseless and desperate claim on your part.
loner1878 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@loner1878 Uh, yes you did:
Page 4 of the debate, halfway down:
"Yeah, the sky high rates of child abuse and neglect in this country are testament to your "loving women" claim, I'm sure, LOL. Shows that you know.
loner1878 4 days ago ."
So I guess you're "not" accusing men to the pardon of women. Oh of course not.... Oh no you're not biased...not at all. I suppose you're a member of the Casey Anthony and Andrea Yates fan clubs too...
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I'm not sure how you managed to warp the statement that way but I'm not going to bother trying to guess.
What I meant by that was many women abuse their kids when you implied all women who had kids raised them lovingly.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 OK, we need to get back on track. Thru our bilateral derailing of the thread, my original question was this: Does the Left feel for Jim Pouillon as well as Dr. Tiller?
Is Pouillon's murder a hate crime as well as Tiller's? YES. And I will stand by that because two wrongs do NOT make right. I just want to know if the Left can stop thinking about themselves long enough to recognize the wrongdoing of their own individuals. Yes, or no? You decide.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
You derailed the thread dude, not me.
I answered your question. I'm not the spokesperson for the "left" (as you refer to it). I'm sure there are people who do and people who don't, just like the opposing side for Dr. Tiller.
loner1878 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
(continued)
Its not a hate crime, Dr. Tiller's murder was a terrorist act. That is inarguable.
As for Poullion, maybe it was a hate crime. I haven't seen the official motive for the crime. The last official reports I saw said that the shooter apparently had a "grudge" against Poullion and that he was just one of three people he targeted during his killing spree, all for individual reasons. He is now in prison and will be punished accordingy once the trial happens.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 OK, now we're talkin.
Pouillon's murder was also terroristic, because I consider any murder against ANYONE a terrorist act. To rob someone of life is the ultimate crime. Yes, the shooter had a grudge against Pouillon because he was upset over his graphic Pro-Life signs, and he killed someone else that day as well.
But it's good to see that justice is being addressed and done on both parts. Well said.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Well thats not the official definition of terrorism (U.S law anyway), but whatever.
loner1878 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
Byron Looper - the Republican politician who murdered his ballot opponent because he knew he would lose the election?
Excerpt from his trial:
"Byron Looper is a man obsessed with a burning desire for power." "He knew he didn't have a chance in the fair election to defeat Tommy Burks, and that caused him to formulate a plan to resolve this election with a bullet instead of a ballot."
You're using cases that had nothing to do with abortions. How pathetic and desperate.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Nope, I didn't use that one. There is a list of other crimes on the page besides abortion. That was your plant.
How nice of you to forget the one ABOVE it...the murder of 51 year old Pro-Life minister Jerry Simon,shot thru his window by Eilenn Orstein Janezic in 1993. I remmeber the case, but apparently the media didn't (of course not)
Footnotes:World Magazine, September 18, 1993; "Pro-Life Leader, Pastor Murdered by Avowed Satanist." Life Advocate, November 1993, page 7.
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I didn't forget it. I thought those examples for you would make you realize you had some bad sources, but apparently I gave you too much credit.
Once again why did she shoot Jerry Simon? Seems she shot him "to prove her love for Satan." She held the police at bay with the same pistol while reading versus from the Satanic Bible, maybe she was mentally disturbed? Seems to me your side jumped at the opportunity to warp a sensless murder into a selfish cause.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 As far as crocodile tears, a crocodile can be on either the right OR left side of the road, so do you see Left Wing crocodile tears as a sin too, or is it just the Right Wing version that's incompatible with humanity?
Shawnster65 1 year ago
@Shawnster65
I don't speak for the "left." I don't personally know anyone who pretended to feel sad but I'm not so arrogant to claim I know every single person's reaction.
loner1878 1 year ago
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happytreefiend3 1 year ago
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happytreefiend3 1 year ago
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happytreefiend3 1 year ago
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happytreefiend3 1 year ago
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happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Talking from experience on the stupidity, I guess?
loner1878 1 year ago
A vigil for a dead person? why?
lostroadofthepopes 1 year ago
I wonder what these sheep would say about James Poullion.
bcmasta1returns 1 year ago 2
@bcmasta1returns
Poullion's son certainly had some "nice" comments about him. Wouldn't be so quick to idolize him.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Yea, his son who lived away from him for 8 years. All that told me is his son is an angry douche bag. But I see what you mean, maybe he wasn't an angle. Also, Some of Tillers former employees had some more formal but still off putting words for him. Wouldn't be so quick to idolize him like these sheep in the video either.
bcmasta1returns 1 year ago 2
@bcmasta1returns
Might want to reflect on who you're calling "sheep." Pretty pathetic.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Yea, God forbid I call people mindlessly cheering on a far left feminist activist at a rally for a sick man who shoved forceps into pre born children's skulls. But I'm sure your good with anyone calling all pro life protesters Religious right wing nutters even if they fit none of those categories.
bcmasta1returns 1 year ago 2
@bcmasta1returns
8 years with good reason.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 8 yrs of ignorance.
bcmasta1returns 1 year ago
@bcmasta1returns
Careful on the hypocrisy there. You sure seem good with calling all other protestors "far left feminists" (as if thats a bad thing lol) but get your feathers ruffled over the term "right wing nutters.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 No, not all pro choice people are like that. I never said all pro choicers act like they are at the rally. I'm referring to the crowd in this video, which they are clearly doing.
bcmasta1returns 1 year ago
@bcmasta1returns
Gathering in a respectful vigil after an admired and well respected doctor was murdured? I did that too, right in front of the White House the day the murder took place.
loner1878 1 year ago
@bcmasta1returns
Yeah, his son is "ignorant" because he makes he makes your anti-abortion saviour look like an loon and batterer. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if James Pouillon's younger children thought highly of him. After all, the church/social club that consumed their lives and glorified him has been the dominant force for the past 15-20 years.
loner1878 1 year ago
Fuck Tiller he was a piece of shit , he reaped what he sowed , burn in hell Tiller , and fuck this fucking skank ass baby killing bitch!
ste670ler 1 year ago 2
@ste670ler
Fuck you.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
Wow! Quite the comeback, "Fuck You." That really sounds like an intellectual comeback don't you think? Oh and by the way... the stupidity didn't come from me, it's came from you. Exactly how is this man a hero? I can name many heroes, but Dr. Tiller and his killer certainly aren't one of them.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Yeah respond to a comment that wasn't aimed at you. The one I was RESPONDING to called for low level thinking. Not worth more.
I don't expect you to understand, I can see its beyond you. But I sure don't know that many people who would wear a bulletproof vest to work each day, get shot in both arms and yet go back to work, and endure daily death threats and harrasment to help women who needed him.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
Yeah, respond to a low level intelligence comment with a low level intelligence reply. That's really stupid, all it does is make you look foolish. But I guess you didn't have to drop your intelligence level far now did you?
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Ad hominem = the last resort of a debater who knows he/she is on the losing side and has nothing to go on but emotional remarks.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
Funny how you lecture me on ad hominems and then tell me to go "watch some fox news." I smell a contradiction.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@loner1878
However, if there was a problem with the fetus that would put the baby and/or mother's life in danger, then I could understand the termination, but if some bimbo with no self-respect can't keep their legs shut, why should the baby pay for the mistake that the mother made? Why should we deny those who don't have a voice a chance at life? So taking lives while "saving" others makes it okay?
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
What smart reasoning you have. The terminations Tiller did were exactly that, birth defects and threats to the mother's life.
Children should not be punishment (continued)
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 No, Tiller did it for all sorts of reasons. Any reason up to 25 weeks Including post viability abortions until birth which was at his sole discretion.
bcmasta1returns 1 year ago
@bcmasta1returns
Please define "all sorts of reasons." Rape victims? Women who couldn't make an appointment sooner or afford it before that? And please mind your source.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
So children are a punishment now? Interesting, does your mother feel the same way about you?
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
No, because I was wanted and planned. She was not forced to carry me to term. I would not have wanted her to.
loner1878 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
I could laugh at your characterization of women. One in three women have an abortion in their lifetime, 61% of women who have abortions are already mothers and feel it would be irresponsible to their existing children to have more, married couples have abortions too. I doubt they fit into your narrow mental excuse of "bimbos" (why not bring up men who don't keep it in their pants, huh?)
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
Characterization of all women as bimbos? No, just the careless and selfish ones. I respect women that can take responsibility for their OWN actions, the same goes for men as well. So that diminishes your idiotic assumption of me being a sexist. 1 out of 4 women? Wow, really shows how much of our country is in a shocking shate of moral decline. But then again look at the divorce rates.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Don't put words in my mouth, sweetheart. I never said that. And how is bringing a child into the world that you have no means to care for responsible, huh?
Its one out of 3. And they are normal women. You might want to learn something. Abortion has been around for thousands of years and was accepted by the church until the middle 18th century.
Nice comments. Shows your mentality. Gonna go watch Fox News next?
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
Well maybe then I must of misunderstood your comment, but bringing in a child for which you cannot care for IS irresponsible. That's why you try not to get pregnant in the first place. However, I have no problem with sex itself, and I really didn't make that clear. That was a fault on my part. But people should know better that if either partner doesn't wear protection, then they can greatly increase their chances of getting pregnant.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
True. But no form of birth control is 100% effective.
loner1878 1 year ago
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happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
I agree with that. But tell me you're joking about the two condoms.
loner1878 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Please remember no birth control is 100% effective.
loner1878 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Please remember no birth control is 100% effective.
loner1878 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Please remember no birth control is 100% effective.
loner1878 1 year ago
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@happytreefiend3
Please remember no birth control is 100% effective.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
Besides, why should I care what the Church said? The Church has done atrocious things in the past: slavery, genocide, etc... Remember, I said that I was neither right-wing or christian, so you telling me to go watch Fox News and bringing up the Church , trying to associate me with those things really shows how hilariously ignorant you are. I believe that would be an ad hominem. Really, how was that supposed to help your arguement?
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Hey, youre the one who brought up "moral decay of society" and a mentality I'm used to seeing in conservatives.
loner1878 1 year ago
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happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Okay...
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Well if at least if you are going attack me for something at least read what I put or ask me about it. If you actually read my post you would have noticed that I refer to these rapists as "no-good assholes." Yet again you lack a valid arguement. Besides, women can't help being raped, it is forced on them. But consentual, the woman has the power to keep her legs shut. If a woman doesn't want to have sex, she should tell her partner, and if he can't accept that, tough shit for him.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Dude, the 50's called. They want their mentality back.
By all means oversimplify this, which is probably the root issue. It's only very recently that women have been allowed to enjoy sex, and a lot of people are still suspicious of women who are free in their sexuality, a leftover from the joyless Puritans who founded this country. Just come out and say it. , I'm so sexually repressed I squeak, any woman who has sex for any reason other than to conceive is a whore."
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
Wow, "the 50's called," "I'm so sexually repressed."
There's a time and place for second grade taunts, but in an actual adult conversation there is no place for it.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
You talked about that in the second grade? Wow.
loner1878 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
You talked about that in the second grade? Wow.
loner1878 1 year ago
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@happytreefiend3
You talked about that in the second grade? Wow.
loner1878 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@happytreefiend3
You talked about that in the second grade? Wow.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
I keep hearing the question "What if the mother was raped?" That doesn't make it right to make the baby pay for the misdeeds of the no-good rapist. Does it make the baby any less of a person? Why not just give it to a family that can't have kids of their own to love and care for? Why must it die? You're not getting back at that asshole who raped you by doing that.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@loner1878
Don't try to pervert this into a women's right issue, it's really more of a human's right issue. On the contrary of what you might think of me, I am neither right wing or christian. If you can't take these into consideration, then you truly are a heartless bitch with no happiness or love in your life.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
I never accused you of being either so I'm not sure where you're getting that. Women's rights ARE human rights.
loner1878 1 year ago
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happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
By disregarding the women who exist now?
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
Nope, just discouraging the act of destroying an innocent life.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Isn't birth control preventing a life? Arguably so is abstinence. We wouldn't be here if those things had been used. And you know what? It wouldn't make a difference.
loner1878 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Isn't birth control preventing a life? Arguably so is abstinence. We wouldn't be here if those things had been used. And you know what? It wouldn't make a difference.
loner1878 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Isn't birth control preventing a life? Arguably so is abstinence. We wouldn't be here if those things had been used. And you know what? It wouldn't make a difference.
loner1878 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Also, the why didnt you keep your legs closed thing is pretty funny anyway, considering that many of the abortions performed in America are on married women who already have kids.
So I guess that means that once you get done having kids or go through menopause you shouldnt have sex anymore?
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878
Well if you are on menopause, then you can have all the sex you want without having the worry of getting pregnant, but until then, participants should practice safe sex. If everyone did that, the chances of getting pregnant would be very slim, However some still do, but if you did everything in your power to keep from getting pregnant using safe sex practices, then you should not be called a bimbo. But abortion should not be a justification or solution.
happytreefiend3 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Ideal thinking. But still children should not be a punishment.
loner1878 1 year ago
@happytreefiend3
Ideal thinking. But still children should not be a punishment.
loner1878 1 year ago
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@happytreefiend3
Ideal thinking. But still children should not be a punishment.
loner1878 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@happytreefiend3
Ideal thinking. But still children should not be a punishment.
loner1878 1 year ago
@loner1878 Did you also attend the DC Sniper vigil?
bcmasta1returns 1 year ago
@loner1878 Mind my sources? Where are you getting your info from? Planned Parenthood or RHRealityCheck? Please. If Tiller only performed abortions or more appropriately pregnancy terminations when they were only truly needed then there wouldn't have been much controversy around him would there? I actually personally know a woman who was refereed to his clinic to have a late term abortion by her choice for the state would not allow it here.
bcmasta1returns 1 year ago
@bcmasta1returns
Its a neutral source. I work closely with a lot of abortion rights organizations so most of my information is firsthand. But I reccomend the Guttmacher Institue, its a neutral source if you need one.
loner1878 1 year ago
@bcmasta1returns
I work closely with a lot of abortion rights organizations so most of my information is firsthand. For a good neutral source I reccomend the Guttmacher Institute.
Anti choicers did their best to smear him and called for baseless investigations, whcih never resulted in a single charge. That should tell you something.
loner1878 1 year ago
@bcmasta1returns
I work closely with a lot of abortion rights organizations so most of my information is firsthand. For a good neutral source I reccomend the Guttmacher Institute.
Anti choicers did their best to smear him and called for baseless investigations, whcih never resulted in a single charge. That should tell you something.
loner1878 1 year ago
a HERO? A DOCTOR? who did he heal?
this sick killer was aborted like those babies he killed.
taketrev 2 years ago 2
@taketrev
He saved the lives of women and was a true hero who stood up to terrorists and idiots.
loner1878 1 year ago
Tiller was a sick fuck who had an oven to burn the dead babies he murdered you stupid bitch.
We in Wichita are happy the bastard is gone.
smgstevo 2 years ago 2