Notice how DS9 was able to both introduce and maintain effective intimidating villains, I can't think of another Trek that ever managed that. Plus just to add icing those villains had depth.
How about, "With the Borg, they could turn your friends against you, with the Founders, they may BE (disguised as) your friends. Dun, dun, duuuuunnnnnn!
DS9 did waste the potential of the changelings in my opinion. We had this episode, paradise lost and the Bashir storyline that opened up a whole host of continuity issues with that blue uniform real Bashir was wearing during the grey uniform era. Ex Astris Scientia.com tried to work out exactly how/why/when he was kidnapped but came up blank.
If you watch this episode very carefully, you can actually see the point where Bashir is replaced by the changeling. It's very subtle, though, so you don't spot it the first time round.
By the way, it was lucky for both Bashir and Dax that the changeling was in a good mood that day. He could easily have killed them both and prevented them from causing problems later, but he didn't. As Riker might say, fate protects fools, little children and major cast members whose contracts haven't ended yet.
@LeonardLew It's almost exactly halfway through the episode. After the scene where they discuss the fact that the changeling was probably here to start a war and that the sensors won't be able to tell him from a human, Odo is shown confining nonessential personnel to quarters, then we see Bashir and a goldshirt casually entering a room, the goldshirt following him. It doesn't look like anything odd is going on here, but on closer inspection...
The Sisko doesn't set his phaser to non-lethal ship sweeping. Oh no, it's permanently set to "waste that motherfucker!". And the scorch marks left in the wall as he narrowly misses the changeling after having been revealed as Bashir (8:23 on blip) make me all warm inside.
One thing bugs me about this episode. An ambassador turns up on the station and 'orders' Sisko to take the Defiant into a potential war zone and he does so without discussing anything with Starfleet Command?
I remember in One Piece, the Straw Hat pirates once encountered an adversary named Mr 2 Bon Clay. Mr. 2 had the ability to turn into anyone he touched, and had touched everyone on the crew so he could assume anyone's identity. They figured out the countermeasure was as simple as drawing an X on their arms and covering it with a bandage, so if they suspected someone of being Mr. 2 all they had to do was look at the arm. How did the super intelligent space men of the future not think of that?
to me it seems a bit of a logical jump that to go from a changeling simply being better at something Odo can do just in limited capacity (I.E shape shifting) to him being able to do something Odo can not do at all (I.E controlling detached parts of his body) I mean I new a kid at school who could jump higher then any one in our class.... but that doesn't mean he was any closed to being able to fly then me
@notpointed because changeling can't fly in humanoid form, to do that the have to taken on a more aerodynamic form....also I sort of made up that kid for the sake of the analogy
@doctorwhoknows1 I just meant to tweak your paranoia a bit, because turning around in your room/class and realizing that that cupboard/kid behind you could just as well be a changeling is a lot of fun, especially when you're bored
@doctorwhoknows1 I offer unto you the example of swimming. At one point you struggle to float, but a more advanced peer can gracefully swim across the surface while an even more advanced one can swim in three dimensions, up and down as easily as side to side. It really isn't that difficult a leap of imagination, especially when you're dealing with an ability wholly outside traditional thought; it is unlike anything reality has an example of; it is fiction, and fiction not fully fleshed out yet.
@ThePolysyllabist the problem with that analogy is that that we are aware of the third dimension in water (from fulling in, sinking and such) if we didn't their would be no reason to assume 2D swimming however good could possibly lead to 3D swimming, it's the same with the changeling it is not reasonable to assume that having a very good mastery over an ability means you can do things that violate the believed limits of said ability (occam's razor)
@doctorwhoknows1 Odo might be aware that it could be conceivable to do this, but he certainly doesn't know how or if it is even possible. And I guarantee you that if you were raised by wolves you might not conceive of swimming as anything other than controlled floating. Wolves don't dive after all. You might be aware of depth, but certainly not that you might actually be able to swim below the surface, go up and down with ease. Not until you saw it done or reached a certain skill level.
where never given any evidence odo thinks that & if that is the case why doesn't he tell the crew that there is a chance the other changeling could do that if I'd been raised by wolves I'd have no understanding of logic or reason, that's why I wouldn't be able to figural out 3d swimming may be possible not because I'd never seen it done before,
"reached a certain skill level" why would me being really good lead me to believe I could something I didn't know was possible
Another thing I like about this episode is that it shows it's willing to tread where TNG and VOY didn't, and have the characters grow and move forward by being promoted...Sisko, if he wanted, could probably have his choice of starship commands after this, and leave DS9 to another commander.
You also have the first instance of a lead actually expressing doubt about the enjoyment of space exploration. Sisko mentioned to Dax in "The Search" that he used to dream about getting a promotion and moving back to Earth. And he only changed his mind because of (1) his attachment to the Bajoran people and (2) the need to confront the Dominion threat. Not because exploring the Gamma Quadrant is so much fun and irresistible.
The whole "Changelings are everywhere" plot thread either was a red herring or petered out when the war arc started...all it was good for was temporarily making the Klingons the bad guys, and the Homefront/Paradise Lost two parter. And it's weird we never see the Tzenkethi, considering they're supposed to be a big adversary...I read somewhere that they might be "The Kzinti" from TAS with the letters rearranged to avoid Larry Niven's lawyers.
@thunderphoenix440 From what I've read, "Homefront/Paradise Lost" was originally intended to be the Season 4 opener and would've continued a Dominion arc, but the guys upstairs decided to bring Worf on the show, which scuppered those plans for the time being. It's more of an aborted arc, really.
Hi Sfdebris... love your reviews. I'm a student and I barely have a pot to piss in, let alone pay for a request, but I just want to plant an idea in your head: "Inheritance". IMO it's the best Data episode. Keep it up and can't wait to see ST V get eviscerated!
Notice how DS9 was able to both introduce and maintain effective intimidating villains, I can't think of another Trek that ever managed that. Plus just to add icing those villains had depth.
AmazingL4rry 7 months ago
How about, "With the Borg, they could turn your friends against you, with the Founders, they may BE (disguised as) your friends. Dun, dun, duuuuunnnnnn!
Joekitty001 7 months ago
not to sound like a bastard, but link, then website.
ok there was no way getting around sounding like a bastard. sorry.
spiv 7 months ago
DS9 did waste the potential of the changelings in my opinion. We had this episode, paradise lost and the Bashir storyline that opened up a whole host of continuity issues with that blue uniform real Bashir was wearing during the grey uniform era. Ex Astris Scientia.com tried to work out exactly how/why/when he was kidnapped but came up blank.
clearspira 7 months ago
Like the reference to an early TOS episode.
FuzzyNecromancer 7 months ago
Get the vacuum.
Foebane72 7 months ago 2
If you watch this episode very carefully, you can actually see the point where Bashir is replaced by the changeling. It's very subtle, though, so you don't spot it the first time round.
By the way, it was lucky for both Bashir and Dax that the changeling was in a good mood that day. He could easily have killed them both and prevented them from causing problems later, but he didn't. As Riker might say, fate protects fools, little children and major cast members whose contracts haven't ended yet.
ignoranceandcrisps 7 months ago 10
@ignoranceandcrisps Cool. Could you maybe point out at what moment we can see that?
LeonardLew 7 months ago
@LeonardLew It's almost exactly halfway through the episode. After the scene where they discuss the fact that the changeling was probably here to start a war and that the sensors won't be able to tell him from a human, Odo is shown confining nonessential personnel to quarters, then we see Bashir and a goldshirt casually entering a room, the goldshirt following him. It doesn't look like anything odd is going on here, but on closer inspection...
ignoranceandcrisps 7 months ago
@ignoranceandcrisps Hah very interesting. Thanks!
LeonardLew 7 months ago
The Sisko doesn't set his phaser to non-lethal ship sweeping. Oh no, it's permanently set to "waste that motherfucker!". And the scorch marks left in the wall as he narrowly misses the changeling after having been revealed as Bashir (8:23 on blip) make me all warm inside.
ThePolysyllabist 7 months ago
One thing bugs me about this episode. An ambassador turns up on the station and 'orders' Sisko to take the Defiant into a potential war zone and he does so without discussing anything with Starfleet Command?
RichardJAllen 7 months ago
@RichardJAllen the changeling also sabotaged the subspace communication system so he could have forged a communication with starfleet
CIarKent 7 months ago
I remember in One Piece, the Straw Hat pirates once encountered an adversary named Mr 2 Bon Clay. Mr. 2 had the ability to turn into anyone he touched, and had touched everyone on the crew so he could assume anyone's identity. They figured out the countermeasure was as simple as drawing an X on their arms and covering it with a bandage, so if they suspected someone of being Mr. 2 all they had to do was look at the arm. How did the super intelligent space men of the future not think of that?
wakeangel2001 7 months ago
I love how even in a DS9 review Chuck takes a shot at Janeway.
SMP0328 7 months ago
@sfdebris
to me it seems a bit of a logical jump that to go from a changeling simply being better at something Odo can do just in limited capacity (I.E shape shifting) to him being able to do something Odo can not do at all (I.E controlling detached parts of his body) I mean I new a kid at school who could jump higher then any one in our class.... but that doesn't mean he was any closed to being able to fly then me
doctorwhoknows1 7 months ago
@doctorwhoknows1 I agree with you but I can't resist saying: how do you know that he isn't? after all, they're everywhere, why not in your school?
notpointed 7 months ago
@notpointed I don't but I'm going by occam's razor..... I don't want explain it again, see my response to @ThePolysyllabist
doctorwhoknows1 7 months ago
@notpointed because changeling can't fly in humanoid form, to do that the have to taken on a more aerodynamic form....also I sort of made up that kid for the sake of the analogy
doctorwhoknows1 7 months ago
@doctorwhoknows1 I just meant to tweak your paranoia a bit, because turning around in your room/class and realizing that that cupboard/kid behind you could just as well be a changeling is a lot of fun, especially when you're bored
notpointed 7 months ago
@doctorwhoknows1 I offer unto you the example of swimming. At one point you struggle to float, but a more advanced peer can gracefully swim across the surface while an even more advanced one can swim in three dimensions, up and down as easily as side to side. It really isn't that difficult a leap of imagination, especially when you're dealing with an ability wholly outside traditional thought; it is unlike anything reality has an example of; it is fiction, and fiction not fully fleshed out yet.
ThePolysyllabist 7 months ago
@ThePolysyllabist the problem with that analogy is that that we are aware of the third dimension in water (from fulling in, sinking and such) if we didn't their would be no reason to assume 2D swimming however good could possibly lead to 3D swimming, it's the same with the changeling it is not reasonable to assume that having a very good mastery over an ability means you can do things that violate the believed limits of said ability (occam's razor)
PS I've always been a good swimmer lol
doctorwhoknows1 7 months ago
@doctorwhoknows1 Odo might be aware that it could be conceivable to do this, but he certainly doesn't know how or if it is even possible. And I guarantee you that if you were raised by wolves you might not conceive of swimming as anything other than controlled floating. Wolves don't dive after all. You might be aware of depth, but certainly not that you might actually be able to swim below the surface, go up and down with ease. Not until you saw it done or reached a certain skill level.
ThePolysyllabist 6 months ago
@ThePolysyllabist
where never given any evidence odo thinks that & if that is the case why doesn't he tell the crew that there is a chance the other changeling could do that if I'd been raised by wolves I'd have no understanding of logic or reason, that's why I wouldn't be able to figural out 3d swimming may be possible not because I'd never seen it done before,
"reached a certain skill level" why would me being really good lead me to believe I could something I didn't know was possible
doctorwhoknows1 6 months ago
Another thing I like about this episode is that it shows it's willing to tread where TNG and VOY didn't, and have the characters grow and move forward by being promoted...Sisko, if he wanted, could probably have his choice of starship commands after this, and leave DS9 to another commander.
thunderphoenix440 7 months ago
@thunderphoenix440
You also have the first instance of a lead actually expressing doubt about the enjoyment of space exploration. Sisko mentioned to Dax in "The Search" that he used to dream about getting a promotion and moving back to Earth. And he only changed his mind because of (1) his attachment to the Bajoran people and (2) the need to confront the Dominion threat. Not because exploring the Gamma Quadrant is so much fun and irresistible.
A three dimensional character in ST?
Priceless.
SciFi2285 7 months ago
@SciFi2285
And he's not the only one! Notice how sfdebris keeps reviewing Dukat-centric episodes.
thunderphoenix440 7 months ago
@thunderphoenix440
The reviews go through phases. Besides, Dukat is awesome.
TheKlink 7 months ago
The truly ironic thing? Cutting off a toe would probably be the most effective way to detect a changeling.
nothri 7 months ago
The whole "Changelings are everywhere" plot thread either was a red herring or petered out when the war arc started...all it was good for was temporarily making the Klingons the bad guys, and the Homefront/Paradise Lost two parter. And it's weird we never see the Tzenkethi, considering they're supposed to be a big adversary...I read somewhere that they might be "The Kzinti" from TAS with the letters rearranged to avoid Larry Niven's lawyers.
thunderphoenix440 7 months ago
@thunderphoenix440 From what I've read, "Homefront/Paradise Lost" was originally intended to be the Season 4 opener and would've continued a Dominion arc, but the guys upstairs decided to bring Worf on the show, which scuppered those plans for the time being. It's more of an aborted arc, really.
ivand1979 7 months ago
Hi Sfdebris... love your reviews. I'm a student and I barely have a pot to piss in, let alone pay for a request, but I just want to plant an idea in your head: "Inheritance". IMO it's the best Data episode. Keep it up and can't wait to see ST V get eviscerated!
playadominical 7 months ago
I thought for sure you were going to say, "The Borg turns your friends against you, but the Dominion turns you against your friends".
IRONMANAustralia 7 months ago
YES, I also thought about The Thing.
Archedgar 7 months ago
Since you've recently started watching Farscape, I have to wonder if Janeway's suggestion of cutting of a random toe was a reference to something...
Dilandau3000 7 months ago
under 60 views club
ib1197 7 months ago