Hitchen's real problem with the Conservative party is that it does not represent what he considers to be the political ideology of conservatism. He's not even a fan of Thatcher and considers her tenure in government to have been a "lost opportunity" to ensure national independence and the defence of culture/morals etc. His brand of conservatism is purer than anything that's been on offer for the last 40 years.
Hitchens is right. The Tory Party under David Cameron is a modern liberal party with no connection at all to real conservatives like Thatcher and Churchill. You'll occasionally hear some conservative noises from the Tories, but they have sold out to the Liberal Democrats on virtually every issue. Instead of leaving the EU and withdrawing foreign aid, which would cut billions of pounds off of public spending, they choose to stop building new schools and scrap free milk for fives to sevens.
@Pepotamo1985 Your remark about Thatcher and Churchill is ignorant; if one or the other were a socialist then they would be far more different than they are. My comment about free milk is not an indictment of that policy in itself, but a criticism of the public spending increases that the coalition has made. Finally, followers of Thatcher are deeply Conservative as it was she who introduced legislation such as Section 28, which is not exactly liberal.
If you'd actually done any reading about politics outside the auspices of a limited AS politics textbook you might have a leg to stand on. Where did I say Thatcher was a liberal? There are other ideological strands and subsets than merely 'conservatives' or 'liberals' you tool. The majority of traditional Tories were absolutely aghast at most of Thatcher's policies at the time.
That you seriously suggest the Tories sold out to the Lib Dems demonstrates the extent of your stupidity too.
First of all, don't insult me on the basis of a lie; I am interested in currenty affairs and have spent the past year researching various political ideologies from a number of sources apart from politics textbooks. Next, I didn't accuse you of calling Thatcher a liberal but simply made the point that she was supported by conservatives from right across the board. Thirdly, she was opposed by people like Heath who did not believe in cutting public spending or anything like that.
A year? Doesn't surprise me - you don't know what you're talking about. Your poor communication skills and limited knowledge probably preclude you from understanding - Thatcherites were an entirely new brand of Conservative, who differed to people classically associated with the Conservative party in pretty much every regard. To infer that Thatcher's party was 'real Conservative' betrays a stultifying lack of knowledge. Have fun educating yourself, you've got a long way to go.
@Pepotamo1985 Who are these traditional Conservatives to whom you refer? If you are talking about people such as Edward Heath and Harold Macmillan who opposed her then I would say to you that neither of those men were genuine Conservatives as they failed to reign in the trade unions or reduce the power of the state. Thatcher did both of those things, as well as winning three election victories based on a clear right wing majority in this country. I think that it is you who is ignorant, not me.
The Tory party, and Conservatism, as much as it exists as a cogent, sole ideology (which is to say not very much) has never been about what you state. Maybe if you knew anything about the Prime Ministerial incumbencies of either men, or indeed the history of the Conservative party (bar Thatcher, who you clearly have a soggy valve for - which is fair enough, as she's undeniably the best post-war Prime Minister by a long chalk) you'd have a leg to stand on. Idiot.
@Pepotamo1985 You are misinterpreting what I have said; the Conservative Party has never actually stood for capitalism, but has always contained a number of solitary individuals who agree with its official principles such as Churchill, Thatcher etc.
Not even going to bother replying to that, you've just demonstrated how hopelessly deluded and stultifyingly ill-informed you are better than I ever could. Goodbye child, you have a LOT to learn little man.
@Pepotamo1985 That claim is neither sweeing nor erreneous, but based on the fact that millions of people vote Conservative in general elections despite the fact that they have been a liberal party for the last five years. When they are finally destroyed, the majority of those people will not continue to support them and will therefore look to genuine conservative parties such as UKIP. Does that not make sense?
Finally, the Conservatives have abandoned their policies on Europe, watered down their stance on immigration, outlawed new grammar schools, ringfenced the NHS and foreign aid, slashed defence spending, raised taxes and introduced the politically correct Equality Act. These are all Liberal Democrat policies.
What is liberal about the continued prohibition of certain drugs? Or criminalization of prostitution? Or wanting to block internet access to porn in the UK? Or continuing to occupy foreign countries without even consulting the civilian population? Or sponsoring a Bangladeshi "death sqaud" (as revealed by wikileaks)? Or supporting corrupt govts in order to obtain trade deals? Or enacting public sector cuts that will hit the poor hardest?
@soyousay18 Let me answer your questions with some others? What is conservative about raising National Insurance and VAT, as well as reducing the 40% threshold for income tax. What is capitalist about increasing government spending on the NHS and foreign aid? What is libertarian (as the Tories claim to be) about enforcing the Equality Act in an attempt at social engineering?
For every example of what you call "Liberal" policies I could give you three Conservative ones so let's not drone on all day. It's widely accepted by the public that this is govt is more Conservative by nature than liberal
The Tories have been forced to modernize and become more liberal because society has succeeded in throwing off past bigotries which the old tories stood for e.g. racism, homophobia, privilege (to some extent) etc
Any more right-wing and they'd be embarrasingly neo-lithic
@soyousay18 Go for it. Give us some of their politically-conservative policies. You won't have much to play for of course, outwith healthcare, education, defence, social welfare, European intergration, international development, the criminal justice system...
@MrYoungIndependence we pay foreign aid so government become allies we should stay in europe at least they have some kind of bank regulation we should only aid countries who want to help out our public our country is run by the private business interests not by voters
@MrYoungIndependence Churchill wasn't really a Tory. In fact he was a Liberal for much of his career and even when he changed was a one-nation Tory, very different from Thatcher (who Hitchens doesn't like either). Foreign Aid is a very conservative thing (trying to manipulate foreign governments for business purposes) as is scrapping free milk (Thatcher anyone?).
@MrYoungIndependence I would argue that Thatcher was not a real conservative either. A conservative must also be morally and socially conservative. Thatcher was'nt. I agree with the privatisation of nationalised industries but she went too far and destroyed social institutions such as the old education system of O Levels and A levels. This as Hitchens has stated has destroyed social mobility in this country. She also did nothing to support marriage and she was the first to stop milk in schools.
Maggie Thatcher Milk Snatcher- Popular Sun newspaper headline at the time
Damontable 7 months ago
Hitchen's real problem with the Conservative party is that it does not represent what he considers to be the political ideology of conservatism. He's not even a fan of Thatcher and considers her tenure in government to have been a "lost opportunity" to ensure national independence and the defence of culture/morals etc. His brand of conservatism is purer than anything that's been on offer for the last 40 years.
ciaran3707 1 year ago
I genuinely believe that when the Conservative party is destroyed, UKIP will form the next government.
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
Hitchens is right. The Tory Party under David Cameron is a modern liberal party with no connection at all to real conservatives like Thatcher and Churchill. You'll occasionally hear some conservative noises from the Tories, but they have sold out to the Liberal Democrats on virtually every issue. Instead of leaving the EU and withdrawing foreign aid, which would cut billions of pounds off of public spending, they choose to stop building new schools and scrap free milk for fives to sevens.
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago 4
@MrYoungIndependence
Thatcher and Churchill couldn't be more different - and Conservatives have form in scrapping milk for youngsters.
Thatcher wasn't a particularly typical Conservative, and her followers are delineated clearly as 'Thatcherites'.
Pepotamo1985 1 year ago
@Pepotamo1985 Your remark about Thatcher and Churchill is ignorant; if one or the other were a socialist then they would be far more different than they are. My comment about free milk is not an indictment of that policy in itself, but a criticism of the public spending increases that the coalition has made. Finally, followers of Thatcher are deeply Conservative as it was she who introduced legislation such as Section 28, which is not exactly liberal.
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
If you'd actually done any reading about politics outside the auspices of a limited AS politics textbook you might have a leg to stand on. Where did I say Thatcher was a liberal? There are other ideological strands and subsets than merely 'conservatives' or 'liberals' you tool. The majority of traditional Tories were absolutely aghast at most of Thatcher's policies at the time.
That you seriously suggest the Tories sold out to the Lib Dems demonstrates the extent of your stupidity too.
Pepotamo1985 1 year ago
First of all, don't insult me on the basis of a lie; I am interested in currenty affairs and have spent the past year researching various political ideologies from a number of sources apart from politics textbooks. Next, I didn't accuse you of calling Thatcher a liberal but simply made the point that she was supported by conservatives from right across the board. Thirdly, she was opposed by people like Heath who did not believe in cutting public spending or anything like that.
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
A year? Doesn't surprise me - you don't know what you're talking about. Your poor communication skills and limited knowledge probably preclude you from understanding - Thatcherites were an entirely new brand of Conservative, who differed to people classically associated with the Conservative party in pretty much every regard. To infer that Thatcher's party was 'real Conservative' betrays a stultifying lack of knowledge. Have fun educating yourself, you've got a long way to go.
Pepotamo1985 1 year ago
@Pepotamo1985 Who are these traditional Conservatives to whom you refer? If you are talking about people such as Edward Heath and Harold Macmillan who opposed her then I would say to you that neither of those men were genuine Conservatives as they failed to reign in the trade unions or reduce the power of the state. Thatcher did both of those things, as well as winning three election victories based on a clear right wing majority in this country. I think that it is you who is ignorant, not me.
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
@MrYoungIndependence Sigh.
The Tory party, and Conservatism, as much as it exists as a cogent, sole ideology (which is to say not very much) has never been about what you state. Maybe if you knew anything about the Prime Ministerial incumbencies of either men, or indeed the history of the Conservative party (bar Thatcher, who you clearly have a soggy valve for - which is fair enough, as she's undeniably the best post-war Prime Minister by a long chalk) you'd have a leg to stand on. Idiot.
Pepotamo1985 1 year ago
@Pepotamo1985 You are misinterpreting what I have said; the Conservative Party has never actually stood for capitalism, but has always contained a number of solitary individuals who agree with its official principles such as Churchill, Thatcher etc.
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
@MrYoungIndependence
Not even going to bother replying to that, you've just demonstrated how hopelessly deluded and stultifyingly ill-informed you are better than I ever could. Goodbye child, you have a LOT to learn little man.
Pepotamo1985 1 year ago
@Pepotamo1985 Grow up.
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
@MrYoungIndependence
Get a clue.
Study politics for more than a year before you start making sweeping, erroneous claims. Like UKIP forming the next government.
Pepotamo1985 1 year ago
@Pepotamo1985 That claim is neither sweeing nor erreneous, but based on the fact that millions of people vote Conservative in general elections despite the fact that they have been a liberal party for the last five years. When they are finally destroyed, the majority of those people will not continue to support them and will therefore look to genuine conservative parties such as UKIP. Does that not make sense?
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
Finally, the Conservatives have abandoned their policies on Europe, watered down their stance on immigration, outlawed new grammar schools, ringfenced the NHS and foreign aid, slashed defence spending, raised taxes and introduced the politically correct Equality Act. These are all Liberal Democrat policies.
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
What is liberal about the continued prohibition of certain drugs? Or criminalization of prostitution? Or wanting to block internet access to porn in the UK? Or continuing to occupy foreign countries without even consulting the civilian population? Or sponsoring a Bangladeshi "death sqaud" (as revealed by wikileaks)? Or supporting corrupt govts in order to obtain trade deals? Or enacting public sector cuts that will hit the poor hardest?
They are marginally less illiberal, that is all.
soyousay18 1 year ago
@soyousay18 Let me answer your questions with some others? What is conservative about raising National Insurance and VAT, as well as reducing the 40% threshold for income tax. What is capitalist about increasing government spending on the NHS and foreign aid? What is libertarian (as the Tories claim to be) about enforcing the Equality Act in an attempt at social engineering?
The government is liberal.
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
For every example of what you call "Liberal" policies I could give you three Conservative ones so let's not drone on all day. It's widely accepted by the public that this is govt is more Conservative by nature than liberal
The Tories have been forced to modernize and become more liberal because society has succeeded in throwing off past bigotries which the old tories stood for e.g. racism, homophobia, privilege (to some extent) etc
Any more right-wing and they'd be embarrasingly neo-lithic
soyousay18 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@soyousay18 Are you able to provide any evidence to support your statements?
MrYoungIndependence 1 year ago
@soyousay18 Go for it. Give us some of their politically-conservative policies. You won't have much to play for of course, outwith healthcare, education, defence, social welfare, European intergration, international development, the criminal justice system...
DeepSixed300 1 year ago
@MrYoungIndependence we pay foreign aid so government become allies we should stay in europe at least they have some kind of bank regulation we should only aid countries who want to help out our public our country is run by the private business interests not by voters
timetochilli 9 months ago
@MrYoungIndependence Churchill wasn't really a Tory. In fact he was a Liberal for much of his career and even when he changed was a one-nation Tory, very different from Thatcher (who Hitchens doesn't like either). Foreign Aid is a very conservative thing (trying to manipulate foreign governments for business purposes) as is scrapping free milk (Thatcher anyone?).
WestHamBestie 9 months ago
@WestHamBestie Churchill was a vociferous opponent of socialism and a passionate defender of the free market, as was Thatcher.
MrYoungIndependence 9 months ago
@MrYoungIndependence I would argue that Thatcher was not a real conservative either. A conservative must also be morally and socially conservative. Thatcher was'nt. I agree with the privatisation of nationalised industries but she went too far and destroyed social institutions such as the old education system of O Levels and A levels. This as Hitchens has stated has destroyed social mobility in this country. She also did nothing to support marriage and she was the first to stop milk in schools.
Damontable 7 months ago