I have to say I forgot really just how lucky Scott was to win OGM. I mean he had the school figures but unfortunately by 1984 Orser was just a far superior free skater not only technically but artistically (I had forgotten Orser really was more than a technician.)
I also admire and respect Brian for his champion's attitude when he didn't win. He said he was deeply disappointed and so honest about thinking he was going to win but congratulated Brian B and refused to rain on his parade. That is a true sportsmanship and Brian is a true gentleman!
I love this guy...so neat to see him as Yuna Kim's coach...throws himself into everything she does and Yuna is a incredibly talented young woman. It's so much fun to watch these two at competitions. It's like a two for one treat..Brian and Yuna. Love it..love it!
Hamilton deserved his gold in 1984. You can't apply the rules of today to the technical standard of a quarter century ago. That would be unfair. The champions of the past were more balanced all around skaters because of the school figures. Hamilton's proficiency and Orser's deficiencu at the time in this area was sufficient to make Hamilton the All Around Olympic Champion.
Much as I like Scott, I still believe if his Olympic free skating LP had been given the marks it deserved........he would have fallen from the top spot...........it's here on YOUTUBE to watch, decide for yourself. By the same token, we have no idea whether or not Orser was marked lower on his figures, just to insure he did not have a chance to challenge in the free skate........but perhaps I am 'paranoid'......it's water under the bridge anyway.....skating is an ugly 'business'....best wishes
@renzy79 Hamilton was overscored in the SP and LP. Even WITH figures taken into consideration (which I don't trust the placements of in the first place), Orser deserved to win the 1984 Olympics. Hamilton should have been 3rd in the SP and 4th in the LP, compared to Orser being 1st in both the SP and LP.
@Zuranthium I respectfully disagree. Hamilton's fundamentals in spins footwork and speed were sufficient for second place in both skating phases. Hamilton's brilliance in the school figures are legendary,
@renzy79 EVERY spin Boitano did in the SP was better than Hamilton's. EVERY jump Boitano did was better as well. The footwork sequence is the only technical element where you could possibly say Hamilton was better but, even though, Boitano had an excellent footwork sequence as well. Hamilton's artistry wasn't amazing or anything. It's a no-brainer who should have placed higher if you're being objective. The fact is Boitano did way better technically and the judges didn't score it as such.
@Zuranthium The truth is that both of us understand that the marks are conservative when you are not in the final flight. They took themselves out of it by finishing 7th & 8th (Orser & Boitano) in the compulsories. If they had skated in the final flight then the story may have been different for their short program scores. I would also like to add that Hamilton's speed was excellent as well as his footwork and the overall edge quality throughout his routine + the clean edge takeoff on the 2ax.
@renzy79 Orser was marked ahead of Hamilton in the SP. Boitano should have been as well. He wasn't because Hamilton was the "top American". Edge quality, yes...that's pretty much the ONLY thing Hamilton had over those two. His speed wasn't anything special in the SP.
Good God, Orser did NOT deserve Gold in 1988. Boitano's program in 1988 was a masterpiece filled with nuance that amazes me every time I watch it. He was technically much stronger as well - second Triple Axel, Triple-Triple combination, didn't fall out of his Flip like Orser...Boitano deserved 5.9/6.0 for that performance and Orser deserved 5.7/5.8 for his.
As for 1984, yes, Orser should have won. Hamilton's LP was unfortunate.
What hasn't been mentioned is that Boitano in the judges eyes improved enough in artistic marks. Sandra Bezic did just enough with Boitano to make him better. If he had been the same skater artistically that he was the year before, there is no way he would have won. Orser is one of the most artistic and musical skaters ever to come along. Far ahead of Boitano and others. The only way Boitano won was to skate the performance of his life (like Tara Lipinsky and Sara Hughes) when they had to.
That is all true, but I have read that Boitano actually won the competition on the last school figure...BO change loop. The points he scored there, gave him the margin in what was essentially a tied SP and LP....but it is true that judges will note changes and improvements in skaters, year to year. Quite a psychological battle!!!!!thanks for your insight! best wishes
@funkydreads Boitano's program in 1988 was better than Orser's. He never showed that amount of artistic talent before that performance but, WOW, did he deliver. Still stands up as one of the best performances ever. He deserved 6.0's.
actually the tie breaking mark was artistic mark up until the judging change...it was 6-3 in favore of boitano and even as an american orser well you and i know
Correct me if I'm wrong but... as I understand it, four judges gave Orser the win outright, three to Boitano, and two had them tied. In those days, ties were broken by the skater with the higher technical score, which in the 1988 Olympics, was Boitano. A second triple axel and a triple-triple combination sealed it for him.
Believe me, as a Canadian, it pains me to admit that. Damn those figures... Orser could and should have been Olympic champion in 1984.
I can only counter with this thought, World judges don't tie things, unless they know (in the back of their minds) that the tie will accomplish the dirty deed they want done, without them having to take the heat for the marks. I think the only answer is to quote a very famous poster from the Salt Lake City games -- POLYGRAPGH THE JUDGES!! But I am glad we can still argue about it 20 years later!! best wishes
Boitano beat Orse in figures. Spins and footwork are TECHNICAL mark. Boitano did a second triple axel (ok not a stellar landing but still) AND a triple loop in the last minute of the program, and the triple flip-triple toe. Yes I'd take the technical mark to Boitano no contest. Boitano didnt get the artistic marks he deserved because of his prior reputation and some judges were afraid to go all out for him as he skated first in the last group.
Spins and footwork are technical mark, yes, but while Boitano had better spins, Orser had better footwork. And Boitano's loop in the last minute versus a triple toe loop coming out of footwork in the last 15 seconds of the program... draw your line, I guess.
Boitano was 2nd in figures, 2nd in the short, 1st in the long. 2 x 0.6 = 1.2; 2 x 0.4 = 0.8; 1 x 1.0 = 1.0. 1.2 + 0.8 + 1.0 = 3.0
Orser was third in figures, first in the short, and second in the long. 3 x 0.6 + 1 x 0.4 + 2 x 1.0 = 3.2
Why? ask the 2 tie judges. You have to wonder why TIME magazine (and its greedy corporate entertainment cabal) had such an interest in this event? Perhaps skating promoters felt there was more money in a Boitano rags to riches story.
how much more valuable is a two-footed(or scratched landing)triple axel than a flawless double axel?? 2nd triple is a controversy because there is ice spray flaying from somewhere? if not two foot, its a rough landing)I will go to my grave believing Orser did not receive the credit in technical merit he deserved!
The triple axel was a clean landing, and Boitano would have gotten even higher marks had he not skated first, it shouldnt have been as close as it was, Boitano deserved 5.9/5.9 and Orser 5.8/5.9 and thats how it should have ended.
mmmmm..I knew this would irritate a few people!! Let's see (Orser wins figures and SP). Orser wins artistic mark, Boitano wins techinical mark, with judges knowing that technical will be the tie breaker. vote was 4 Orser, 3 Boitano, and 2 ties (which went to Boitano). FP spins and footwork had to go to Orser(which it did-artistic). Jump combinations - does 1 triple-triple top several flawless combos? (continued)
No he should NOT have been given the benefit of the doubt. His performance was not adequate enough to win. Maybe if he hadnt fallen out of that flip, or he did the 2nd triple axel. He may have been the world champion in 87, but his problem at 86 worlds, 85 worlds left room for alot of doubt. Dont see how you can argue Orser's program should have been marked higher than it was. Boitano was underscored as it was.
I have to say I forgot really just how lucky Scott was to win OGM. I mean he had the school figures but unfortunately by 1984 Orser was just a far superior free skater not only technically but artistically (I had forgotten Orser really was more than a technician.)
skaterboy3718 1 year ago
I also admire and respect Brian for his champion's attitude when he didn't win. He said he was deeply disappointed and so honest about thinking he was going to win but congratulated Brian B and refused to rain on his parade. That is a true sportsmanship and Brian is a true gentleman!
getrealandsee 2 years ago
I love this guy...so neat to see him as Yuna Kim's coach...throws himself into everything she does and Yuna is a incredibly talented young woman. It's so much fun to watch these two at competitions. It's like a two for one treat..Brian and Yuna. Love it..love it!
getrealandsee 2 years ago
6.0 or No for YO......2010!!!
whit152 2 years ago
6.0 or NO for YO.......2010!!!!!
Join the Underground Rebellion to destroy the COPS scoring system, and return our sport to the 6.0 standard the fans love...........best wishes
k9henrydog 2 years ago
Hamilton deserved his gold in 1984. You can't apply the rules of today to the technical standard of a quarter century ago. That would be unfair. The champions of the past were more balanced all around skaters because of the school figures. Hamilton's proficiency and Orser's deficiencu at the time in this area was sufficient to make Hamilton the All Around Olympic Champion.
renzy79 3 years ago
Much as I like Scott, I still believe if his Olympic free skating LP had been given the marks it deserved........he would have fallen from the top spot...........it's here on YOUTUBE to watch, decide for yourself. By the same token, we have no idea whether or not Orser was marked lower on his figures, just to insure he did not have a chance to challenge in the free skate........but perhaps I am 'paranoid'......it's water under the bridge anyway.....skating is an ugly 'business'....best wishes
k9henrydog 2 years ago
@renzy79
come on now.....Orser won the short and the long.....the c.f. should not have been so important
stogieman2 2 years ago
@renzy79 Hamilton was overscored in the SP and LP. Even WITH figures taken into consideration (which I don't trust the placements of in the first place), Orser deserved to win the 1984 Olympics. Hamilton should have been 3rd in the SP and 4th in the LP, compared to Orser being 1st in both the SP and LP.
Zuranthium 1 year ago
@Zuranthium I respectfully disagree. Hamilton's fundamentals in spins footwork and speed were sufficient for second place in both skating phases. Hamilton's brilliance in the school figures are legendary,
renzy79 1 year ago
@renzy79 EVERY spin Boitano did in the SP was better than Hamilton's. EVERY jump Boitano did was better as well. The footwork sequence is the only technical element where you could possibly say Hamilton was better but, even though, Boitano had an excellent footwork sequence as well. Hamilton's artistry wasn't amazing or anything. It's a no-brainer who should have placed higher if you're being objective. The fact is Boitano did way better technically and the judges didn't score it as such.
Zuranthium 1 year ago
@Zuranthium The truth is that both of us understand that the marks are conservative when you are not in the final flight. They took themselves out of it by finishing 7th & 8th (Orser & Boitano) in the compulsories. If they had skated in the final flight then the story may have been different for their short program scores. I would also like to add that Hamilton's speed was excellent as well as his footwork and the overall edge quality throughout his routine + the clean edge takeoff on the 2ax.
renzy79 1 year ago
@renzy79 Orser was marked ahead of Hamilton in the SP. Boitano should have been as well. He wasn't because Hamilton was the "top American". Edge quality, yes...that's pretty much the ONLY thing Hamilton had over those two. His speed wasn't anything special in the SP.
Zuranthium 1 year ago
Good God, Orser did NOT deserve Gold in 1988. Boitano's program in 1988 was a masterpiece filled with nuance that amazes me every time I watch it. He was technically much stronger as well - second Triple Axel, Triple-Triple combination, didn't fall out of his Flip like Orser...Boitano deserved 5.9/6.0 for that performance and Orser deserved 5.7/5.8 for his.
As for 1984, yes, Orser should have won. Hamilton's LP was unfortunate.
Zuranthium 3 years ago
What hasn't been mentioned is that Boitano in the judges eyes improved enough in artistic marks. Sandra Bezic did just enough with Boitano to make him better. If he had been the same skater artistically that he was the year before, there is no way he would have won. Orser is one of the most artistic and musical skaters ever to come along. Far ahead of Boitano and others. The only way Boitano won was to skate the performance of his life (like Tara Lipinsky and Sara Hughes) when they had to.
funkydreads 4 years ago
That is all true, but I have read that Boitano actually won the competition on the last school figure...BO change loop. The points he scored there, gave him the margin in what was essentially a tied SP and LP....but it is true that judges will note changes and improvements in skaters, year to year. Quite a psychological battle!!!!!thanks for your insight! best wishes
k9henrydog 4 years ago
@funkydreads Boitano's program in 1988 was better than Orser's. He never showed that amount of artistic talent before that performance but, WOW, did he deliver. Still stands up as one of the best performances ever. He deserved 6.0's.
Zuranthium 1 year ago
actually the tie breaking mark was artistic mark up until the judging change...it was 6-3 in favore of boitano and even as an american orser well you and i know
jerejungle 4 years ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but... as I understand it, four judges gave Orser the win outright, three to Boitano, and two had them tied. In those days, ties were broken by the skater with the higher technical score, which in the 1988 Olympics, was Boitano. A second triple axel and a triple-triple combination sealed it for him.
Believe me, as a Canadian, it pains me to admit that. Damn those figures... Orser could and should have been Olympic champion in 1984.
owemunar 4 years ago
I can only counter with this thought, World judges don't tie things, unless they know (in the back of their minds) that the tie will accomplish the dirty deed they want done, without them having to take the heat for the marks. I think the only answer is to quote a very famous poster from the Salt Lake City games -- POLYGRAPGH THE JUDGES!! But I am glad we can still argue about it 20 years later!! best wishes
k9henrydog 4 years ago
You do realize 5 judges TIED them in technical - so only 1 had to turn and give a higher artistic mark to Orser...but that didnt happen...
miloandtock1 4 years ago
Boitano beat Orse in figures. Spins and footwork are TECHNICAL mark. Boitano did a second triple axel (ok not a stellar landing but still) AND a triple loop in the last minute of the program, and the triple flip-triple toe. Yes I'd take the technical mark to Boitano no contest. Boitano didnt get the artistic marks he deserved because of his prior reputation and some judges were afraid to go all out for him as he skated first in the last group.
miloandtock1 4 years ago
Spins and footwork are technical mark, yes, but while Boitano had better spins, Orser had better footwork. And Boitano's loop in the last minute versus a triple toe loop coming out of footwork in the last 15 seconds of the program... draw your line, I guess.
Boitano was 2nd in figures, 2nd in the short, 1st in the long. 2 x 0.6 = 1.2; 2 x 0.4 = 0.8; 1 x 1.0 = 1.0. 1.2 + 0.8 + 1.0 = 3.0
Orser was third in figures, first in the short, and second in the long. 3 x 0.6 + 1 x 0.4 + 2 x 1.0 = 3.2
owemunar 4 years ago
Why? ask the 2 tie judges. You have to wonder why TIME magazine (and its greedy corporate entertainment cabal) had such an interest in this event? Perhaps skating promoters felt there was more money in a Boitano rags to riches story.
k9henrydog 4 years ago
how much more valuable is a two-footed(or scratched landing)triple axel than a flawless double axel?? 2nd triple is a controversy because there is ice spray flaying from somewhere? if not two foot, its a rough landing)I will go to my grave believing Orser did not receive the credit in technical merit he deserved!
k9henrydog 4 years ago
The triple axel was a clean landing, and Boitano would have gotten even higher marks had he not skated first, it shouldnt have been as close as it was, Boitano deserved 5.9/5.9 and Orser 5.8/5.9 and thats how it should have ended.
metsdudenj 3 years ago
mmmmm..I knew this would irritate a few people!! Let's see (Orser wins figures and SP). Orser wins artistic mark, Boitano wins techinical mark, with judges knowing that technical will be the tie breaker. vote was 4 Orser, 3 Boitano, and 2 ties (which went to Boitano). FP spins and footwork had to go to Orser(which it did-artistic). Jump combinations - does 1 triple-triple top several flawless combos? (continued)
k9henrydog 4 years ago
No he should NOT have been given the benefit of the doubt. His performance was not adequate enough to win. Maybe if he hadnt fallen out of that flip, or he did the 2nd triple axel. He may have been the world champion in 87, but his problem at 86 worlds, 85 worlds left room for alot of doubt. Dont see how you can argue Orser's program should have been marked higher than it was. Boitano was underscored as it was.
miloandtock1 4 years ago