Torture is unfortunately a secret policy of most countries at one time or another, not least the Arab countries. It's just a horrible fact about the world we live in. It would seem that the only difference is that Israel is honest about it. It's the bigger picture that really counts and this is where Shlomo comes out on top. It's certainly not to Israel,s credit that so many Palestinian civilians died but one must take into account that much of the blame rests with Hamas for hiding behind them.
Ben Ami makes a basic logical fallacy. He argues that because Arab countries and Palestinians are committing crimes, it is justifiable for Israel to do so. He essentially says "two wrongs make a right" -- as if committing further crimes cancels out the original problem. What a joke.
Ben Ami kept saying "well they do it, so it is ok for us to do it". That was his excuse the whole way, the excuse for torture, the excuse for mass murder, for crimes against humanity, the humiliation of aborigines, the eviction of aborigines etc. What a waste of time, no wonder why they never debate this issue, because debate will tend to show that the Zionists are indefensible.
Ben Ami says that rule of the engagement are dictated by arabs.
And this is fact.
As NF said "law is for everyone or nobody" but being what he is cheap demagogy he use it selectively. Only against Israel. How ever fact is it was arabs who open Pandora box by opening global terror campaign against civ.
Fact is Arabs do not follow any rules or convention but they get free pass.
NF is liar and demagogy. Key point in this debate was - Israeli agreed to Clinton parameters and Arafar did not. Here is Clinton testimony:
/watch?v=4UJamyuv_3Y
Fact is int'l law is not a suicide pact and here an illustration what happen if Israeli follow rules - "Ramallah lynch".
Also remember this Israel did not kill 2 state. Arabs did. Joradn annex WB and Egypt Gaza. for 2 decades they fail to form P-n. Where was int'l law? Is it apply to Israel only?
@Greywind30 Clinton testimony doesnt amount to diddly see Clinton v Lewinsky. Furthermore, This isn't a recording of him and his inner circle this is recording made for his eventual autobiography not necessarily a venue where one shows all his scars.
Only alan dershowitz would rely on superficial expressions of intent and public discussions of politicians such as this.
@jackbug43 "Clinton testimony doesnt amount to diddly"
O'Rly? Clinton despite of his shenanigans brilliant politic and I took this testimony just as short cut but sure take a look at letter and by all means show to me where Israeli disagree with parameters
1.will do that once its safe[didnt work in gaza].2.once the bordrs are set that way and its israels territory we can do what ever we want.3.see num 2+the only reason the wall exists is pale' actions,once they stop terrorizing us the wall will fall on its own.4.we are not killing anyone[intentionally] all youre facts r based on israeli human rights organizations- draw conclusions from that on israels policy+we support them with food,water,gas,electricity& med treatment.5. NEVER going to happen.
@MariusDemocratius, you are very far from the truth. The Nazis tortured little children, and made horrible experiments on them, google mengale, and you'll see. What i'm talking about, is getting information out of a guy who sent a suicide bomber to a mall. It may be the mall where your little daughter is going to hang out tonight. you have two hours to get the information before the suicide bomber explodes in the mall. What would you do?
Israel is the country where torture is legalized because, not like other countries, it doesn't want to hide it. Israel understands it is terrible, and still, could be necessary to save the lives of innocent people. That is why it turns to it's supreme court do decide when is it just and when is it not just to torture, and in what ways. Israel is the only country in the world to question it self in such hard questions. All the other countries in the world torture people with out asking anyone
Dr. Finkelstein, you said: "you won't find me justifying torture". Let me ask you this, if torturing a man would save your little girl from exploding in the mall, would you or would you not torture? besides that I agree with most of what you said.
@grassyuval I know the question was for Dr. Finkelstein, but let me twist the situation you mention. If torturing YOU would save my family from a bomb, would I do it? The question is flawed since I cannot know your actions until you preform them. That's why it's to me morally wrong to torture you. You just can't harm people based on what they MIGHT do in the future. That's what the Nazi's did to jews in Germany and that's what the U.S. are doing to the arabs. And it will never promote peace.
What surprises me the most is that Israel really and truly believes Palestine is their land, and Palestinians are the occupiers not them, and they (Israeli) are doing Palestinians a great favor by giving them a whopping 15% or so of Palestine, not to mention the walls, settlements, road blocks, restricted areas and ruins from previous bombing and bombardment of cities and villages, which beautifully divide those huge 15% into a contiguous paradise on earth which is optimal for prosperous living.
I mean, seriously!!! Is the world community that dumb and ignorant!!?? Obviously, Israel is not, because they are managing to actually do what I've mentioned in my previous comment!!!
And one last thing, if we are going to be a little bit reasonable here, we should call Israel a terrorist state driven by religion (After all it's their promised land as they claim) as much as we call Muslims terrorists driven by religion. And here, I beg the differ in favor of Muslims, but just for the sake of pleasing everyone there and the sake of rationale, I'll say at this present time both statements are true.
Shlomo Ben-Ami will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue for the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website Intelligence Squared for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.
as i follow the discussion, it appears to me very clear that the the Gaza issue is simply and no more of a stubborn belief that God gave Israel that land. And in here we have 2 distinguished gentlemen who went intricate with the details of the politics behind this issue when this is no more than Zionism . I have reached to the conclusion that this will all end in the brutal war against Arabs and Israelis.
"its a violation of international law But...But....But...."Dear Lord, if you do exist, please do away with all Zionists, they truely are the most toxic scum this earth has endured, a maladie of humanity.
Israel breaking many international laws isn't up for debate......fact. What some palestinians feel should happen to Zionist doesn't justify it. Remember, there are many Jews who think Palestinians should be moved to Jordan. Is it fair for me to say "suicide bombings are evil but but but dear lord please do away with these Palestinian scum who live on our land"?
Regardless of how I may disagree morally with Ben Ami's approach and his ideas, people like him are actually legitimate partners to peace.
The first step to real peace is for the two sides to be HONEST about their platform. If both sides are honest than they can sit down and work out agreements that genuinely approach compromise. If one side is not honest on what they are truly seeking, this becomes impossible.
Hamas, for example, is honest about its ideals with regards to the Israeli state.
I think the generations of jews that were robbed of their land in Germany after the second war, should claim their land back, and pack their bags and go back to Germany. Hittler is dead, they are safe. There is no such a thing as Promise Land.
And if if was a promise, their God had forgotten about it.
The Lands belongs to who have lived in their, It is called the Historical Palestine.
And we should respect her History and their inalienable right to possess back their home.
wow Bim Ami simply said I don't give a fuck about International law or morality. Who the fuck these Zionists think they are? Fuckin Bullies. They got this skewed vision about the world and they believe that's the right paradigm! If they don't belong to this world or claim not to be civilized then certainly they don't need law or morals. But we normal human being do. Why the heck we have to live with these people in our world. I feel sorry for Palestinians that they are Zionists neighbours.
Very old post, but Britain regularly ignores International law also. If you wield enough power or latch on to those that do, you pretty much get a free pass. International law only applies to countries who do not have the capability to oppose it.
@Reptile0000 you are so full of shit it makes me sick.the way finkel manipulates things is outragous.if you have a "ticking bomb" a person who is about to kill your family you mean to tell me that "torturing" in order to stop him is out of the question?!?! if you say yes then youre a dishonest hypocritic liar. alot of the things he says r true,but he and you pepole are living in a different world from us in the mid east,islam is spreading, will c how noble youll b when he is your nieghoubr...
@alonee810 1.Go back to 1967 borders.2.Stop confiscating and setting down in someone else's land.3.If you are ought to build that so called self defence wall then build it on the borders(not in someone else land). 4.Stop killing children&women through food/medicine blockade&by bombing&spraying white phosphorus.5.Let millions return to their homes!If you are to claim to protect yourself then you don't have to be an aggressor&it doesn't take understanding equivalent of rocket science to know that
@Reptile0000Its funny because ben ami is considered to be a true left winger here in israel and you criticize him for being a bullie.i think finkel is a brilliant intellectual and thats why he is clueless and a proff not a statesman,thats why he is clinging to the inter' law and morality without giving a balanced way of implementing what he says.sometimes it feels like its an academic prestige game for him.someone needs to give him a wake up call and inform him its the real world not the library
@alonee810 It's a true representation of what I said up there ''skewed vision'' Israel's way of seeing things doesn't defines a matter to the world mate.Bin-Ami is Not a leftist to us(world). He is Zionist, which is worse than a bullie. Now look what you said: Norman is brilliant intellectual & he's clinging on morality Int Law hence he is clueless, he's asleep& doesn't know what reality is.If standing up for law human rights& morality is fiction then I wish no one would ever wake up! Thanks
@Reptile0000True i agree with what you said[im not being sarcastic]i wish to never wake up!but reality, history and most importent HUMAN NATURE punches me in the face!u so conveniently[perhaps manipulativly]dropped the end of the sentence"without giving a balanced way of implementing what he says".the good life in the UK&US numbed all your senses LADS.give up your passports come live in the real world[dont mean israel]will c how noble youll b.u over rightous pretentious colonialists! no worries
@alonee810 Ppl who respect law morals&human rights are just normal people.Those who believe that'reality' is defined by their understanding,certainly has a false sense of self righteousness.Normal people base their arguments on FACTS not what they believe it is! Int law defines international borders not Israel&Human rights are defined by the people of the world.Not a group called Zionists.What Norman is saying is the JUST way of implementing law! hence right & balanced one. It has no complexity
@Reptile0000 holy shit r u listening to wat u r saying?!? "ppl who believe dat reality...normal ppl base their arguments on FACTS not what they believe it is" is this a joke?!?u taking a piss arent u? what facts you know you self importent hypocrit BBC facts?YOUTUBE facts? have you ever been HERE? have you ever red the hamas manifast?u sit in the UK & preach "facts not believes"?!?THATS WHAT YOU JUST DID YOU BASED YOUR ARGUMENTS ON YOUR BELIEVES. &WAT THE FUCK IS NORMAL?who r u to define normal
@Reptile0000 and moral well obviously u dont know arabs moral but lets not go their. moral is relative altough what you convinietly believe sitting in one of the most imoral countrys in the world. 500 years ago i wouldve spit roasted your ass if i felt like,that was moral than, today moral is different. in saudi arabia moral is to chop thievs hands i dont think thats moral in the UK.in the pacific islands[the ones you conquered] moral was to eat ppl organs.imposing YOUR moral is ignorantness
@Reptile0000 Maybe thats the problem, self importent douch bags such as yourself still think they r superior you still think were the natives and u need to turn us into good christians, well thats over now buddy.the int law regards the 67 lands as a land occupeid after a war and israel is entitled to hold it till the end of the conflict THATS THE LAW. im sick & tired of retards like you that have no fucking clue im done conversing with you ppl you're just so arrogant it sickens me...
@Reptile0000 You r not a humanitarian you dont give a flying fuck about the pale' you just a product of your inviroment. you just cant bare the bad sights on BBC so u try to pollish your conceince, there is a turnoff button you know. if you truly cared you wouldve cared for the Sudanese&the Aretreans that infiltrate israel looking for better life like u care for the pale' [cause over there its a real genocide not like the fake one you invented] why they come here if we r so imoral?
@Reptile0000 as i said no point conversing with u ppl. guess thats the reason israel is losing the PR war, were not wasting our time explaining to clueless hypo's like u and finkel we focus on your leaders the ones that make decisions, and for some reason they support us. so i suggest you b a good democratic liberal citizen, you voted them for position you trust them to represent u so shut the fuck up drink your pint watch some reality show and leave us the fuck alone. peace
@alonee810 Some people value facts logic and reasoning in life.This is more important than what you think feel or told by whomsoever.Israel is losing PR has a reason to it.Morality is relative so you can kill 100:1 Palestinians:Israeli's?&Its illegal under int Law to occupy a territory through war!Full stop.No one has this right.This is not relative & it has no flexibility.You attacking Briton isn't going to help you build Israel's PR.Stop killing ppl you'll get respect. Thanks
@Reptile0000 You don't even know what you are talking about. Finkelstein is an emotionally damaged person who knows better, but thinks he has the rights as the biggest victim of the holocaust to criticize all of the others. In context, every argument he presents is false. Period.
There are so many problems with his statements that you'd have to start all over from the 19th century to teach the corrections.
He's an anti-Semite caused by the emotional damage of surviving the holocaust.
@Reptile0000 Well when the United Nations Council of Human Rights elected Libya as a chair on 2006 and when the Human Rights Commission Council elected Zimbabwe as a chair in sustainable development, Israel has the right to question the validity of international law.
@Reptile0000 as an Israeli i agree that international law has to prevail, the palestinians have a right to an independent country according to international law, living in peace with us. east jerusalem except the wailng wall and the jewish area should be returned, the palestinian refuge should return to their new palestinian state. and please do not generlise and call zionists bullies, the palestinians with hamas on top dont give a shit about international law, and so do many other countries
@gadidoron1 you are living in israel and thats enough proof that you are a zionist. you are illegal, your existense is the shame, your policies are evil, your country is illegitimate. who the hell are you to decide that you should keep this and give that. believe me animals are thousand times better than you. you are the evil on earth. shame is a very small word for you
@faziljaved im an Israeli and a zionist and proud of it. my people have been living in Israel for thousands of years, their where allways jews in Israel even when it was turned into arabic hands. this land belongs to both palestinians and Israelis. the u.n recognized Israel as a home land of the jewish people, and the jews have a right for their own land. so who the hell are you to call history and a u.n decition illegal? and the only animal is you spreadind lies and hatred, about Israel
@gadidoron1 Israel deserves to exist. That is not the question. Even though no country in history has had more help in creating and preserving its existence than israel. I do not resent the Israeli people as much as the ideology that founded them and the government that exists there. A common thread is always zionism and zionism is the root cause of my objection to Israel. Zionism to an outsider like me is a recycled version of Nazi Aryan supremacy.
@RussiangirlNY one only needs to look at what Hitler said to see what I mean. "the Aryan race is superior to all other races, it has special privileges that other races lack and so it deserves to cleanse the world of inferior races." Zionism comes to basically the same conclusions about jews, the only difference is that is uses religion -which differs relatively from person to person, (YOU maybe Jewish), but I may be Muslim etc. the basic gist of Zionism "this land belongs to the Jews,
@RussiangirlNY because our gos said so." this is a mild interpretation of zionism. But practically, just as Nazi germany used Aryan ideology to rationalize extermination of Jews, Zionism rationalizes the expulsion and in many times execution of Arabs from their ancestrial lands. Effectively I believe that Zionist jews, are implementing the same exact policy that was implemented against them. This is not only shameful but deeply hypocritical.
@RussiangirlNY just as Hitler though that his ideology superseded the needs and desires of the Jewish people and other non Aryan races, YOU and other zionists believe that essentially Jews are superior to other races; that they get to inhabit a the holy land while others need to be exiled from it. and indirectly your policies implement the same tactics Hitler used to rid Europe of the jews -depriving them of their property, enclosing them in prison like ghettoes and forcing them to
@RussiangirlNY be searched and be curfewed. This is why the world resents Israel, because of the pathological ideology it was founded on, and also the racist policy it implements. I am an agnostic and believe that all people are equal, that people should be compassionate to others and respect their land and property, that they should not steal form their fellow man. THOSE are the qualities that the compassionate god recognizes; not plundering, killing and racism.
once again finkelstein came out on top, though credit to ben ami, he seemed much better than most zionist shitheads i have become accustomed to watching, and was openly honest about his zionist agenda. i also like the presenter - she is fair
@bhvfnhb You know, what Ben-Ami said about his political, rather than moralistic approach reminds me of the open honesty of a quote uttered by an anti-Zionist shithead, Michael Neumann. He said that with regard to his commentary on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he is "not interested in the truth, or justice, or understanding" unless it serves the Palestinian cause. True, it was not Finkelstein who said this, but I think he operates on the same principle as Neumann.
I also appreciate the open honesty of other anti-Zionists like Gilad Atzmon and Yigal Tumarkin. The former figure stated "I'm not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act". The latter stated, "When I see the black-coated haredim with the children they spawn, I can understand the Holocaust." Now that's what I call tolerant peace activism!
Why split the land? Plenty of room in Antarctica for israeli wannabes to dwell. Neither one of these sap suckers looks like they come from anywhere near the middle least. One looks like he may have some spanish in him. Oh let me guess he'll be a sephardic? The other is about as middle eastern as a polar bear .
So give Palestine back to Palestine..and bomb saudi and take all their oil. Sound good? Oh bomb kuwait too afterall they started a lot of the Iraqi mess.
I understand your predicament. One in your position could do one of many thin8gs e.g.
Make bombastic claims like the above and hope (against hope) that you will be assumed to be some authority (perhaps divinely-inspired) who knows the intricate details of the Palestinian-Israeli question.
Or, you could show us your mettle (and do the rational thing). Post your rebuttal of Finkelstein; you are on YouTube after all. Turn on your webcam and state your case.
I could do that, but it's much more convenient when friends like Peter Novick (Finklestein's mentor), Israel Guttman, Benny Morris, Omer Bartov, Hans Momsen, and Daniel Goldhagen do it for me.
You're good though, pressuring me to make a video and knowing that I won't do it. I'm not here to make political videos. I am here to make bombastic claims and hope that someone will challenge them. It seems you haven't responded to my challenge. hmm
First, how the hell would I know that you won't make a video? You seem like a whiz who will put the record straight on anything remotely related to Israel. ;)
But let's do this if you're not up for the above. Post the views of the above mentioned figures (in whom you have placed your trust) on issues that you disagree with Finkelstein.
Dude, stop going round circles. What challenge are you on about? If you're dream-fantasizing of yourself as some 2,000 year old gladiator, I can't help but watch and enjoy (if you don't mind).
Otherwise, just start posting your criticisms of Finkelstein and you will get a response (either in support or disagreement).
I told you, to prove that everything Finkelstein says in this video (or debate) is true and not "pure invention", as his mentor Peter Novick said about Finkelstein's writing.
Look, you are the one contesting that the above is NOT true. Hence, the onus is on you to provide the evidence that it is indeed as you say it is.
It is like taking someone to court and asking him to prove his innocence. Stop wasting our time. If you have nothing constructive to offer, please add to these discussions with your silence.
Ok then. For starters, lets start with Finkelstein's claim that the World Court ruled in 2004 that all settlements are illegal. He is, in fact, bullshitting. What the World Court did rule in 2004 was that the West Bank barrier was illegal, not the settlements.
Israel made a chart showing the reduction of terrorist attacks from year to year. They wanted to show it to the court in their defense, but the court refused to see it and simply ruled the wall to be illegal.
Here's the direct text from the Court advisory opinion (paras 70-78):
At the close of its analysis, the Court notes that the territories situated between the Green Line and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan.
The ICJ was asked for an opinion. Go and read the preliminary of the released material.
I should add here that Israel - that so called beacon of freedom! - tried to prevent the ICJ from offering its opinion. The above is also substantiated in the preliminary part of the released material.
I hope you can verify this yourself and tell us of your findings.
Instead of telling me to find all these sources, would you please lay them out? Show me the preliminary of the released material, show me the source where Israel tried preventing the ICJ from offering its opinion, and show me that my premise is entirely contradictory, I'm not going to look around for the sources, so please lay them out in this beacon of freedom.
Under customary international law, the Court observes, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories have done nothing to alter this situation. The Court
concludes that all these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and that Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.
And for another simple rebuttal to him, he claims that the first intifada was a non-violent one. Another bullshit claim. However, this one is a half truth. Some of the intifada involves protesting, graffiti, etc., while the other part involves throwing rocks and fighting with guns, knives, etc. Sources claimed that 160 Israelis and over 900 Palestinians were killed. Some "non-violent" intifada.
Putting aside the cavalier reporting of the number of Palestinian deaths, please provide an exact source for where Finkelstein stated that the First Intifada was PURELY and ONLY non-violent.
Finkelstein correctly states that the First Intifada was mainly non-violent. Israel response was rolling in the tanks, but that's not something you'd state now, would you?
Is Israel's "disproportionate" response with tanks what bothers you? I hate to sound insensitive, but I don't care. Israel's job is to target the cause of the problem, not to just bang them and say "that's what you get".
@OBZ Israel is run by manics and you either have to be either missing half your brain or one evil shameless prick to support them. this isn't even about stopping terrorists, and if you actually know this (i don't say this to many people) you actually deserve death.)
It's about one rich special interest no-hearted group (whom btw deserve a thousand bullets each until they're un-recognizable) stealing the land of another poorer people, in any way possible because or their superstitious beliefs.
@TheAttackRat Wow, considering that your arguments are well backed up with credible sources and are a direct response to all that I've said, I'm shocked that you're actually telling the truth! And thanks for the death wish :)
@OBZ Youtube is hardly the platform for source listings.
As for my death-wish to you. if you opinion even somewhat leave others, even slightly sympathetic to your cause, which in turn fuels Israels support balancing act and allows them to continue, then this indirectly leaves Palestinians dead at the hands of people who shouldn't even be there. So then what i'm really saying is i'd prefer an innocent live to survive rather than your either ignorant or just plain stupid one. Israel's end is nigh
@TheAttackRat I disagree, I believe you can provide sources on youtube, though you may have to make several posts to fit everything.
Your argument is very general, and I would appreciate if you make it more specific. What I'm getting from you is that Israel is an aggressor which is directly responsible for the death of Palestinians.
Wrong. Let's take Gaza for example. If Israel wanted to maximize casualties, why did they drop leaflets and call Gazans to stay out of the way of fire?
@OBZ have you read the goldstone report? and are you religious in any sense?
By bringing it down into specific examples, you can parade spotting insignificant error in my arguments akin to the familiar tactic a creationist arguing with an atheist would use. On the whole Israel's government will do anything to take Palestinian land, and Israel seems to think, being there thousands of years ago justifies taking from them now.
@TheAttackRat And yes the goldstone report verifies that Israel has killed innocent Palestinians sometimes unintentionally and sometimes even on purpose.
So my point stands about you either being half-brained or as shameless as supporting murder; something that is down there with baby-rape, pedophilia and necrophilia; That's what you are.
@TheAttackRat I think you're just repeating false statements without any knowledge of what's true or false. My guess is that before replying to this, you're going to dig through the internet for sources that may back your arguments, and of course you'll find a sigh in relief if you happen to find anything.
@OBZ Unproffesional!? are you serious? it is one of the most careful fair-minded things i've read. & The rebuttals deal with menial things. EVERY country but those with obvious reasons for leaning in israels favour (eg. US, Israel and a few bought-out small nations) favour support the Goldstone report and the UN.
What's your view of meashimer and Walt's piece: "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy"? lol is that too an un-professional piece?
@TheAttackRat I don't think you understand how significant the rebuttals are. First of all, many of the standards applied to Israel are not applied to its enemies. Therefore, it makes it easier to delegitimize Israel through double standards. Also, the Goldstone Report states harsh things done by Israel, but doesn't really acknowledge all of the evidence that Hamas used its population as human shields (as proven in the CAMERA report), therefore increasing the civilian death toll.
@OBZ Yes, actually it does matter. It is very hard for 180+ countries to be wrong even though this is not 'evidence', it should serve as an indication.
And you point to CAMERA. This is a biased organisation created for the sole purpose of deceiving and lying. Can you actually tell me where meashimer and walt are wrong? or did u just search for it on the CAMERA site knowing they'd have a refutation ready.
@TheAttackRat Actually, 114 countries endorsed the report, not 180+. However, when you take out the Arab nations which already have a bias against Israel (here a bias is significant because this is the official UN vote, not some activism campaign), you will find out that the numbers are not as high as you think.
@TheAttackRat Why do you assume that I just searched it on CAMERA knowing they would have it ready? Have you maybe happened to think that I could have possibly known about the CAMERA page prior to this debate? I learned about where the authors are wrong through CAMERA, and I verified many of the sources, which happen to be true.
Now I have a question for you: Can you tell me where CAMERA is wrong? You can't accuse someone of lying and not back yourself up.
@OBZ You point to CAMERA, a site, even as you say is pro-israel to decypher and refute a touchy topic such as the Israeli conflict.
Do you not understand that when dealing with these issues, almost any case for any issue can be made if enough seaching for the right sources occurs. Creationist claiming evidence against atheism is an excellent example of this.
So until you point to a source, un-biased! i will properly decypher it, because otherwise i'll be here forever.
@TheAttackRat And perhaps you can argue that the articles by CAMERA stand alone separate from CAMERA's bias.
Arguments, when enough support and thought are put into them, can make the case for anything (see theism). These arguments seem twisted and would be a waste of time deciphering every hand-picked source and every claim it makes. It would be like arguing a creationist and having to know his arguments as well as they do just to refute it, and when you do, they always have another.
@TheAttackRat CAMERA doesn't mainly argue, it's job is to refute arguments.
I think you're making a general setting in order to make my arguments seem insignificant. There is nothing insignificant about me pointing out a source which takes arguments based on false facts and refuting then by providing sources which document the correct facts.
@TheAttackRat CAMERA provides facts and evidence for it's findings, bias does not affect the facts. If you have a problem with that, then go ahead and decypher it. It doesn't have to be unbiased for you to refute it, I don't understand your logic.
@OBZ CAMERA?! that is one of the most biased pro-Israel sources i could think of. What a joke.
People whom may come across "OBZ"
This guy is a ZEALOT for Israel who will point to biased network of sources in favour of Israel. Expose the Murder supporter if ever you see him spreading propaganda and nonsense.
@TheAttackRat Yes, CAMERA is biased, I could not agree more. Now explain to me how calling them "biased" disproves their facts. Some joke, huh?
People whom may come across "TheAttackRat"
This guy cannot back his arguments in a debate nor can he rebuttal other peoples arguments properly. Therefore, he resorts to slandering, name-calling, and will eventually tell you that you deserve to die. Try debating him, it's like talking to a wall.
I assume you didn't read the links I posted, right?
And for the source, it's from a 60 minute presentation by Finkelstein at UC Berkeley in 2005. I believe there's a cd of it, but I'm not sure. However, you may be right about him saying it was "mainly" non-violent, but in Berkeley he may have said otherwise
That's the difference between a politician that was a respected historian and a politician that was a member of an assassination squad (like most of their prime ministers)
And people should investigate terrorism in America. It is VERY likely Israel is covertly involve in terrorist attack to turn America against Israel's enemies. Why fight a war when you can have somebody else fight a war for you and pay the financial and political cost right? Coincidently, the Bush's neocons who brought you the war in Iraq were mostly Jewish. Look it up!
What a pleasant change this debate was from the normal vitriol you get from the average Israel mascots, I have great respect for Shlomo Ben Ami for his maturity and tolerance in this debate. He accepted the points made and gave his own back without being insulting or overly aggressive like that idiot Dershowitz.
I don't know if it was a kind of win-lose debate but if it was then any doubts about Ben -Ami losing it are wiped out by the final sentence. bravo, Mr Ben-Ami. and remember, this guy is a dove!
Actually I'd disagree on this point. Politicians whom make claims of virtue are always suspect in my eyes. It is of more value that a politician defines himself in terms of policy than shallow, demagogic platitudes. I respect him for that. That said, he did get pretty toasted by Norman.
That's not what he's saying. People are motivated by their morals, but they're motivated even more by their interests. What Ben-Ami is saying is that a practical solution the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can only be achieved if Israelis believe that a two-state solution is in their interests, not necessarily because they believe that the Palestinians deserve a state. The same applies for the Palestinians with regards to Israel.
jprg1966, to leave even the most mundane of social relations to the governance of interests in an unrestrained form is to invite catastrophe.
When we speak of the welfare and innate rights that human beings should enjoy, and how these are trampled over by an entity that is seeking to secure its "interests", then we should have the moral capacity to take a stance.
It is for this reason that the tools of international law should be respected, and their efficacy upheld.
How useful is international law if its strict adherence could actually get in the way of settling the conflict? The negotiations would obviously be between both parties, so any skirting of the law would have to be mutually agreed upon. All I'm saying is that if there's a reason why peace talks fail, it shouldn't be because both parties agreed to something that wasn't allowed under international law and therefore was thrown off the table.
We have to come to an agreement to what is meant by getting in the "way of settling the conflict".
If mutual interests were met by any treaty, with or without international law, we would have had a settlement by now. The problem arises due to a conflict of interests, and hence arises the need for a force to restrain and balance these interests with a level of fairness.
International law does not by any means treat out ideal justice in conflict resolution, but is rather based on fairness.
The failure of this interest-qua-interest approach, without respect or objective treatment of accepted norms, is best exemplified in the Oslo talks. Listen closely to what Ben Ami made of the talks and the "destructive ambiguity" that resulted from it.
Shalom-The Zionist regime in israel have no idea what Teshuvah is?The International community will be unable to convince the Gestapo regime to eliminate their arrogance and disregard for human lives.The most important word here is:"teshuvah gamurah"
Yes its despicable thing to say that he's not concerned for the palestinians...IF he meant it the way it sounded.
Benefit of the doubt says he meant that it isnt JUST because he is concerned for the palestinians that he wants a solution but that he feels it is also in the very BEST interests of Israel.
this whole debate is very good. Ben Ami loose it. Every single point that Finkelstein give is a hard solid fact. Nevertheless in this debate Ben Ami act very civilized unlike our fellow beloved Douchewitt
Interesting?Mr.Ben Ami considers himself an ardent Zionist!For some reason,the orthodox jews do not recognize the Zionist capital of israel.I do not hate any race or creed. Shalom!
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
thank you for proving that Norman finkelstein is completely wrong on not what Israel is doing wrong but about the will of the palestinians. witch as you said is the kick us all out
This is an excellent debate. With some caveats. Norman presents a good case, though his smugnees towards the end means he presents his opinion as fact. For example the issue over terrorism is not numbers killed by tactics (this was in part 5), Norman manipulates the point here and is incorrect. Also in his allegations regarding hostage taking, he manipulates the issue by taking one side, and not placing it in the socio-political/military context, and he knows it!
Use Google...He has indeed stated his opinions of Arafat and Hamas and even the Hizbullah on MANY occasions. They are irrelevant to the pertinent facts of the Israel-Palestine issue overall but he has nonethless made his position known on such poeple and organizations...and incidentally they are not 100% flattering...not even 25% actually.
So maybe know what your talking about before you try to dismiss his positions stated in this Ben Ami debate...which is the pertinent issue at hand.
OK here is something close to a 'case'. I even agree: Peace IS in the interest of the Israelis but their interests are irrelevant to policy as are the US public's interests. Expansion, encroachment, and enclosure is policy. Strong-arming and keeping a belligerent, rogue & reckless mititary presense in the Middle East is policy. Security of the Israeli and Palestinian people is an irrelevance to the powers that be. Those are the facts. If security was a concern, Israel would withdraw and fortify.
I am not retarded enough to try to give a slandering, ignoramous of a Zionist a history & civics lesson. If you watch this video and it's other parts you will have a better grasp of the facts of the issue...that is, if you open your eyes and can see past your own ridiculously racist self-interests.
Do you think our govt's power and reach can't handle multiple issues? Do you think it's as black and white as "Well we have problems here, so why bother about the probles WE are funding, causing and encouraging over there?"
When Bush vetos a bill yesterday to ban US torture, does this not give "credibility" to Ben Ami in this debate as he lamely tried to justify Israel's torture practices?
There is NO justification for torture as policy. Period. If you think otherwise, then you're a pig.
Do you think our govt's power and reach can't handle multiple issues? Do you think it's as black and white as "Well we have problems here, so why bother about the probles WE are funding, causing and encouraging over there?"
When Bush vetos a bill yesterday to ban US torture, does this not give "credibility" to Ben Ami in this debate as he lamely tried to justify Israel's torture practices?
There is NO justification for torture as policy. Period. If you think otherwise, then you're a pig.
I love jewish people, just as I love all people. However, that does not change the fact that Israel is an illegal, terrorist state, (The United States is also), Zionism is racist, and Shlomo is a war criminal. For Israel to survive it will have to recognize a Palestinian state.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
any time i read something that start with "I love ____ (insert minority here)" I know what follows will be bunch of bullshit written by a lying coward.
Shlomo Ben Ami is particularly vile in that he separates morality from politics.
OrodesIII 2 months ago
Torture is unfortunately a secret policy of most countries at one time or another, not least the Arab countries. It's just a horrible fact about the world we live in. It would seem that the only difference is that Israel is honest about it. It's the bigger picture that really counts and this is where Shlomo comes out on top. It's certainly not to Israel,s credit that so many Palestinian civilians died but one must take into account that much of the blame rests with Hamas for hiding behind them.
moovershaker 4 months ago
Ben Ami makes a basic logical fallacy. He argues that because Arab countries and Palestinians are committing crimes, it is justifiable for Israel to do so. He essentially says "two wrongs make a right" -- as if committing further crimes cancels out the original problem. What a joke.
ionevea 4 months ago
DEATH TO ISREAL.
1976jasse 9 months ago
Ben Ami kept saying "well they do it, so it is ok for us to do it". That was his excuse the whole way, the excuse for torture, the excuse for mass murder, for crimes against humanity, the humiliation of aborigines, the eviction of aborigines etc. What a waste of time, no wonder why they never debate this issue, because debate will tend to show that the Zionists are indefensible.
finestShorty 9 months ago
@finestShorty
Ben Ami says that rule of the engagement are dictated by arabs.
And this is fact.
As NF said "law is for everyone or nobody" but being what he is cheap demagogy he use it selectively. Only against Israel. How ever fact is it was arabs who open Pandora box by opening global terror campaign against civ.
Fact is Arabs do not follow any rules or convention but they get free pass.
Greywind30 9 months ago
@finestShorty good point!
zkmplayer 8 months ago
There bottom line is
NF is liar and demagogy. Key point in this debate was - Israeli agreed to Clinton parameters and Arafar did not. Here is Clinton testimony:
/watch?v=4UJamyuv_3Y
Fact is int'l law is not a suicide pact and here an illustration what happen if Israeli follow rules - "Ramallah lynch".
Also remember this Israel did not kill 2 state. Arabs did. Joradn annex WB and Egypt Gaza. for 2 decades they fail to form P-n. Where was int'l law? Is it apply to Israel only?
Greywind30 10 months ago
@Greywind30 Clinton testimony doesnt amount to diddly see Clinton v Lewinsky. Furthermore, This isn't a recording of him and his inner circle this is recording made for his eventual autobiography not necessarily a venue where one shows all his scars.
Only alan dershowitz would rely on superficial expressions of intent and public discussions of politicians such as this.
jackbug43 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jackbug43 "Clinton testimony doesnt amount to diddly"
O'Rly so whos testimony is amount to something?
As for "superficial expressions of intent and public discussions of politicians" NF has plenty of this.
Check his point of view on 1967 war.
/watch?v=mSnueGxUe-I&feature=related
He put point of view and only point of view against well know FACTS such as removal UN forces, moving armies to border, blockade.
Greywind30 10 months ago
@jackbug43 "Clinton testimony doesnt amount to diddly"
O'Rly? Clinton despite of his shenanigans brilliant politic and I took this testimony just as short cut but sure take a look at letter and by all means show to me where Israeli disagree with parameters
Greywind30 10 months ago
1.will do that once its safe[didnt work in gaza].2.once the bordrs are set that way and its israels territory we can do what ever we want.3.see num 2+the only reason the wall exists is pale' actions,once they stop terrorizing us the wall will fall on its own.4.we are not killing anyone[intentionally] all youre facts r based on israeli human rights organizations- draw conclusions from that on israels policy+we support them with food,water,gas,electricity& med treatment.5. NEVER going to happen.
alonee810 1 year ago
@MariusDemocratius, you are very far from the truth. The Nazis tortured little children, and made horrible experiments on them, google mengale, and you'll see. What i'm talking about, is getting information out of a guy who sent a suicide bomber to a mall. It may be the mall where your little daughter is going to hang out tonight. you have two hours to get the information before the suicide bomber explodes in the mall. What would you do?
grassyuval 1 year ago
Israel is the country where torture is legalized because, not like other countries, it doesn't want to hide it. Israel understands it is terrible, and still, could be necessary to save the lives of innocent people. That is why it turns to it's supreme court do decide when is it just and when is it not just to torture, and in what ways. Israel is the only country in the world to question it self in such hard questions. All the other countries in the world torture people with out asking anyone
grassyuval 1 year ago
Dr. Finkelstein, you said: "you won't find me justifying torture". Let me ask you this, if torturing a man would save your little girl from exploding in the mall, would you or would you not torture? besides that I agree with most of what you said.
grassyuval 1 year ago
@grassyuval I know the question was for Dr. Finkelstein, but let me twist the situation you mention. If torturing YOU would save my family from a bomb, would I do it? The question is flawed since I cannot know your actions until you preform them. That's why it's to me morally wrong to torture you. You just can't harm people based on what they MIGHT do in the future. That's what the Nazi's did to jews in Germany and that's what the U.S. are doing to the arabs. And it will never promote peace.
MariusDemocratius 1 year ago
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grassyuval 7 months ago
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grassyuval 7 months ago
What surprises me the most is that Israel really and truly believes Palestine is their land, and Palestinians are the occupiers not them, and they (Israeli) are doing Palestinians a great favor by giving them a whopping 15% or so of Palestine, not to mention the walls, settlements, road blocks, restricted areas and ruins from previous bombing and bombardment of cities and villages, which beautifully divide those huge 15% into a contiguous paradise on earth which is optimal for prosperous living.
Abu7asan27 1 year ago
I mean, seriously!!! Is the world community that dumb and ignorant!!?? Obviously, Israel is not, because they are managing to actually do what I've mentioned in my previous comment!!!
Abu7asan27 1 year ago
And one last thing, if we are going to be a little bit reasonable here, we should call Israel a terrorist state driven by religion (After all it's their promised land as they claim) as much as we call Muslims terrorists driven by religion. And here, I beg the differ in favor of Muslims, but just for the sake of pleasing everyone there and the sake of rationale, I'll say at this present time both statements are true.
Abu7asan27 1 year ago
Kudos to Prof Norman FINKELSTEIN. Highly respected man.
sulang85 1 year ago
Shlomo Ben-Ami will be taking part in Intelligence Squared’s live debate entitled “The Middle East peace process is a charade” in London, Sept 2010. Hear him argue for the motion and ask him questions in person. Go to our website Intelligence Squared for info and tickets. This event can be watched live online worldwide.
iqsquared 1 year ago
I think it's truly sad that Dr. Ben Ami feels the need to state clearly that he's concerned with neither the Palestinians nor international law.
Ragtime4 1 year ago
One thing is not for dispute NF has one hell of smug face.
There is no greater "opponent" for him then Israeli lefty.
NF is master of exploiting greatest weakness/strength of democracy dissent.
Sure B'tsalem has a bad record on Israel they are Israeli watch dog. Can you imagine what Arab record would be if they had watch dog lie Israeli?
But one thing is right law apply to all or nobody.
Arabs do not uphold any law so Israeli act with great restrain compare to them
Greywind30 1 year ago
Many, many, many thanks for these videos!
grummeper 1 year ago
Thank you very much for uploading these videos.
cementra2007 1 year ago
as i follow the discussion, it appears to me very clear that the the Gaza issue is simply and no more of a stubborn belief that God gave Israel that land. And in here we have 2 distinguished gentlemen who went intricate with the details of the politics behind this issue when this is no more than Zionism . I have reached to the conclusion that this will all end in the brutal war against Arabs and Israelis.
bluelensemedia 1 year ago
"its a violation of international law But...But....But...."Dear Lord, if you do exist, please do away with all Zionists, they truely are the most toxic scum this earth has endured, a maladie of humanity.
stellarshore 1 year ago
@stellarshore
Israel breaking many international laws isn't up for debate......fact. What some palestinians feel should happen to Zionist doesn't justify it. Remember, there are many Jews who think Palestinians should be moved to Jordan. Is it fair for me to say "suicide bombings are evil but but but dear lord please do away with these Palestinian scum who live on our land"?
SaintsXLIVchamps 1 year ago
@stellarshore don't pray; no god. out-wit the fuckers.
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
Regardless of how I may disagree morally with Ben Ami's approach and his ideas, people like him are actually legitimate partners to peace.
The first step to real peace is for the two sides to be HONEST about their platform. If both sides are honest than they can sit down and work out agreements that genuinely approach compromise. If one side is not honest on what they are truly seeking, this becomes impossible.
Hamas, for example, is honest about its ideals with regards to the Israeli state.
meelash1 1 year ago
I think the generations of jews that were robbed of their land in Germany after the second war, should claim their land back, and pack their bags and go back to Germany. Hittler is dead, they are safe. There is no such a thing as Promise Land.
And if if was a promise, their God had forgotten about it.
The Lands belongs to who have lived in their, It is called the Historical Palestine.
And we should respect her History and their inalienable right to possess back their home.
tg1thinktank 2 years ago 9
templemount(.)org/quranland(.)html
Fascinating, aint it?
Wrath0fKhan 2 years ago
Why didnt you post my last Comment on your video Loser...... Dont argue if you cant handle it..... hahahaha
Bye Loser..... Allahu Akbar
chipallo80 1 year ago
@tg1thinktank You are most welcome to come try and make us :)
Benjiko 1 year ago
wow Bim Ami simply said I don't give a fuck about International law or morality. Who the fuck these Zionists think they are? Fuckin Bullies. They got this skewed vision about the world and they believe that's the right paradigm! If they don't belong to this world or claim not to be civilized then certainly they don't need law or morals. But we normal human being do. Why the heck we have to live with these people in our world. I feel sorry for Palestinians that they are Zionists neighbours.
Reptile0000 2 years ago 41
@Reptile0000
Very old post, but Britain regularly ignores International law also. If you wield enough power or latch on to those that do, you pretty much get a free pass. International law only applies to countries who do not have the capability to oppose it.
SinergyWave 1 year ago
@Reptile0000 right on Rep.
tonybenn1000 1 year ago
@Reptile0000 you are so full of shit it makes me sick.the way finkel manipulates things is outragous.if you have a "ticking bomb" a person who is about to kill your family you mean to tell me that "torturing" in order to stop him is out of the question?!?! if you say yes then youre a dishonest hypocritic liar. alot of the things he says r true,but he and you pepole are living in a different world from us in the mid east,islam is spreading, will c how noble youll b when he is your nieghoubr...
alonee810 1 year ago
@alonee810 1.Go back to 1967 borders.2.Stop confiscating and setting down in someone else's land.3.If you are ought to build that so called self defence wall then build it on the borders(not in someone else land). 4.Stop killing children&women through food/medicine blockade&by bombing&spraying white phosphorus.5.Let millions return to their homes!If you are to claim to protect yourself then you don't have to be an aggressor&it doesn't take understanding equivalent of rocket science to know that
Reptile0000 1 year ago
@Reptile0000Its funny because ben ami is considered to be a true left winger here in israel and you criticize him for being a bullie.i think finkel is a brilliant intellectual and thats why he is clueless and a proff not a statesman,thats why he is clinging to the inter' law and morality without giving a balanced way of implementing what he says.sometimes it feels like its an academic prestige game for him.someone needs to give him a wake up call and inform him its the real world not the library
alonee810 1 year ago 2
@alonee810 It's a true representation of what I said up there ''skewed vision'' Israel's way of seeing things doesn't defines a matter to the world mate.Bin-Ami is Not a leftist to us(world). He is Zionist, which is worse than a bullie. Now look what you said: Norman is brilliant intellectual & he's clinging on morality Int Law hence he is clueless, he's asleep& doesn't know what reality is.If standing up for law human rights& morality is fiction then I wish no one would ever wake up! Thanks
Reptile0000 1 year ago
@Reptile0000True i agree with what you said[im not being sarcastic]i wish to never wake up!but reality, history and most importent HUMAN NATURE punches me in the face!u so conveniently[perhaps manipulativly]dropped the end of the sentence"without giving a balanced way of implementing what he says".the good life in the UK&US numbed all your senses LADS.give up your passports come live in the real world[dont mean israel]will c how noble youll b.u over rightous pretentious colonialists! no worries
alonee810 1 year ago
@alonee810 Ppl who respect law morals&human rights are just normal people.Those who believe that'reality' is defined by their understanding,certainly has a false sense of self righteousness.Normal people base their arguments on FACTS not what they believe it is! Int law defines international borders not Israel&Human rights are defined by the people of the world.Not a group called Zionists.What Norman is saying is the JUST way of implementing law! hence right & balanced one. It has no complexity
Reptile0000 1 year ago
@Reptile0000 holy shit r u listening to wat u r saying?!? "ppl who believe dat reality...normal ppl base their arguments on FACTS not what they believe it is" is this a joke?!?u taking a piss arent u? what facts you know you self importent hypocrit BBC facts?YOUTUBE facts? have you ever been HERE? have you ever red the hamas manifast?u sit in the UK & preach "facts not believes"?!?THATS WHAT YOU JUST DID YOU BASED YOUR ARGUMENTS ON YOUR BELIEVES. &WAT THE FUCK IS NORMAL?who r u to define normal
alonee810 1 year ago
@Reptile0000 and moral well obviously u dont know arabs moral but lets not go their. moral is relative altough what you convinietly believe sitting in one of the most imoral countrys in the world. 500 years ago i wouldve spit roasted your ass if i felt like,that was moral than, today moral is different. in saudi arabia moral is to chop thievs hands i dont think thats moral in the UK.in the pacific islands[the ones you conquered] moral was to eat ppl organs.imposing YOUR moral is ignorantness
alonee810 1 year ago
@Reptile0000 Maybe thats the problem, self importent douch bags such as yourself still think they r superior you still think were the natives and u need to turn us into good christians, well thats over now buddy.the int law regards the 67 lands as a land occupeid after a war and israel is entitled to hold it till the end of the conflict THATS THE LAW. im sick & tired of retards like you that have no fucking clue im done conversing with you ppl you're just so arrogant it sickens me...
alonee810 1 year ago
@Reptile0000 You r not a humanitarian you dont give a flying fuck about the pale' you just a product of your inviroment. you just cant bare the bad sights on BBC so u try to pollish your conceince, there is a turnoff button you know. if you truly cared you wouldve cared for the Sudanese&the Aretreans that infiltrate israel looking for better life like u care for the pale' [cause over there its a real genocide not like the fake one you invented] why they come here if we r so imoral?
alonee810 1 year ago
@Reptile0000 as i said no point conversing with u ppl. guess thats the reason israel is losing the PR war, were not wasting our time explaining to clueless hypo's like u and finkel we focus on your leaders the ones that make decisions, and for some reason they support us. so i suggest you b a good democratic liberal citizen, you voted them for position you trust them to represent u so shut the fuck up drink your pint watch some reality show and leave us the fuck alone. peace
alonee810 1 year ago
@alonee810 Some people value facts logic and reasoning in life.This is more important than what you think feel or told by whomsoever.Israel is losing PR has a reason to it.Morality is relative so you can kill 100:1 Palestinians:Israeli's?&Its illegal under int Law to occupy a territory through war!Full stop.No one has this right.This is not relative & it has no flexibility.You attacking Briton isn't going to help you build Israel's PR.Stop killing ppl you'll get respect. Thanks
Reptile0000 11 months ago
@Reptile0000 You don't even know what you are talking about. Finkelstein is an emotionally damaged person who knows better, but thinks he has the rights as the biggest victim of the holocaust to criticize all of the others. In context, every argument he presents is false. Period.
There are so many problems with his statements that you'd have to start all over from the 19th century to teach the corrections.
He's an anti-Semite caused by the emotional damage of surviving the holocaust.
chris2002Rocklin 9 months ago
@Reptile0000 Well when the United Nations Council of Human Rights elected Libya as a chair on 2006 and when the Human Rights Commission Council elected Zimbabwe as a chair in sustainable development, Israel has the right to question the validity of international law.
Fitplayer66 8 months ago
@Reptile0000 as an Israeli i agree that international law has to prevail, the palestinians have a right to an independent country according to international law, living in peace with us. east jerusalem except the wailng wall and the jewish area should be returned, the palestinian refuge should return to their new palestinian state. and please do not generlise and call zionists bullies, the palestinians with hamas on top dont give a shit about international law, and so do many other countries
gadidoron1 6 months ago
@gadidoron1 you are living in israel and thats enough proof that you are a zionist. you are illegal, your existense is the shame, your policies are evil, your country is illegitimate. who the hell are you to decide that you should keep this and give that. believe me animals are thousand times better than you. you are the evil on earth. shame is a very small word for you
faziljaved 6 months ago
@faziljaved im an Israeli and a zionist and proud of it. my people have been living in Israel for thousands of years, their where allways jews in Israel even when it was turned into arabic hands. this land belongs to both palestinians and Israelis. the u.n recognized Israel as a home land of the jewish people, and the jews have a right for their own land. so who the hell are you to call history and a u.n decition illegal? and the only animal is you spreadind lies and hatred, about Israel
gadidoron1 6 months ago
@gadidoron1 Israel deserves to exist. That is not the question. Even though no country in history has had more help in creating and preserving its existence than israel. I do not resent the Israeli people as much as the ideology that founded them and the government that exists there. A common thread is always zionism and zionism is the root cause of my objection to Israel. Zionism to an outsider like me is a recycled version of Nazi Aryan supremacy.
RussiangirlNY 2 months ago
@RussiangirlNY one only needs to look at what Hitler said to see what I mean. "the Aryan race is superior to all other races, it has special privileges that other races lack and so it deserves to cleanse the world of inferior races." Zionism comes to basically the same conclusions about jews, the only difference is that is uses religion -which differs relatively from person to person, (YOU maybe Jewish), but I may be Muslim etc. the basic gist of Zionism "this land belongs to the Jews,
RussiangirlNY 2 months ago
@RussiangirlNY because our gos said so." this is a mild interpretation of zionism. But practically, just as Nazi germany used Aryan ideology to rationalize extermination of Jews, Zionism rationalizes the expulsion and in many times execution of Arabs from their ancestrial lands. Effectively I believe that Zionist jews, are implementing the same exact policy that was implemented against them. This is not only shameful but deeply hypocritical.
RussiangirlNY 2 months ago
@RussiangirlNY just as Hitler though that his ideology superseded the needs and desires of the Jewish people and other non Aryan races, YOU and other zionists believe that essentially Jews are superior to other races; that they get to inhabit a the holy land while others need to be exiled from it. and indirectly your policies implement the same tactics Hitler used to rid Europe of the jews -depriving them of their property, enclosing them in prison like ghettoes and forcing them to
RussiangirlNY 2 months ago
@RussiangirlNY be searched and be curfewed. This is why the world resents Israel, because of the pathological ideology it was founded on, and also the racist policy it implements. I am an agnostic and believe that all people are equal, that people should be compassionate to others and respect their land and property, that they should not steal form their fellow man. THOSE are the qualities that the compassionate god recognizes; not plundering, killing and racism.
RussiangirlNY 2 months ago
Americans need a new revoluation.
salem61 2 years ago 2
wow dis logic coming from a former israerli official its a breathe of fresh air.
and if he were american im sure hell be labelled with antisemitism
aadejumo 2 years ago 6
This comment has received too many negative votes show
just get rid of the fucking dirty jews
hcwcars1 2 years ago
@hcwcars1 No. I like Jewish people.
Israeli governmental policies and their military expansionism are a completely different story though.
Do yourself a favor along with the rest of the world and leave behind the racism.
eternallord 2 years ago 35
@eternallord
Expansionism? Oh brother.
chris2002Rocklin 9 months ago
once again finkelstein came out on top, though credit to ben ami, he seemed much better than most zionist shitheads i have become accustomed to watching, and was openly honest about his zionist agenda. i also like the presenter - she is fair
bhvfnhb 2 years ago 15
@bhvfnhb You know, what Ben-Ami said about his political, rather than moralistic approach reminds me of the open honesty of a quote uttered by an anti-Zionist shithead, Michael Neumann. He said that with regard to his commentary on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he is "not interested in the truth, or justice, or understanding" unless it serves the Palestinian cause. True, it was not Finkelstein who said this, but I think he operates on the same principle as Neumann.
FamilyGuyRocks89 1 year ago
I also appreciate the open honesty of other anti-Zionists like Gilad Atzmon and Yigal Tumarkin. The former figure stated "I'm not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act". The latter stated, "When I see the black-coated haredim with the children they spawn, I can understand the Holocaust." Now that's what I call tolerant peace activism!
FamilyGuyRocks89 1 year ago
Why split the land? Plenty of room in Antarctica for israeli wannabes to dwell. Neither one of these sap suckers looks like they come from anywhere near the middle least. One looks like he may have some spanish in him. Oh let me guess he'll be a sephardic? The other is about as middle eastern as a polar bear .
So give Palestine back to Palestine..and bomb saudi and take all their oil. Sound good? Oh bomb kuwait too afterall they started a lot of the Iraqi mess.
ammiralowling 2 years ago 4
Why is Norman Finkelstein a "sap sucker"?
AramGiles 2 years ago
I challenge anyone to prove that everything Norman FInkelstein said is true and not simply made up.
OBZ 2 years ago
I understand your predicament. One in your position could do one of many thin8gs e.g.
Make bombastic claims like the above and hope (against hope) that you will be assumed to be some authority (perhaps divinely-inspired) who knows the intricate details of the Palestinian-Israeli question.
Or, you could show us your mettle (and do the rational thing). Post your rebuttal of Finkelstein; you are on YouTube after all. Turn on your webcam and state your case.
Let the world listen to your wisdom!
mingoi313 2 years ago
I could do that, but it's much more convenient when friends like Peter Novick (Finklestein's mentor), Israel Guttman, Benny Morris, Omer Bartov, Hans Momsen, and Daniel Goldhagen do it for me.
You're good though, pressuring me to make a video and knowing that I won't do it. I'm not here to make political videos. I am here to make bombastic claims and hope that someone will challenge them. It seems you haven't responded to my challenge. hmm
OBZ 2 years ago
First, how the hell would I know that you won't make a video? You seem like a whiz who will put the record straight on anything remotely related to Israel. ;)
But let's do this if you're not up for the above. Post the views of the above mentioned figures (in whom you have placed your trust) on issues that you disagree with Finkelstein.
Rational, no?
mingoi313 2 years ago
How about this:
You accept my challenge, and I'll tell you about some issues that I disagree with Finkelstein on.
OBZ 2 years ago
Dude, stop going round circles. What challenge are you on about? If you're dream-fantasizing of yourself as some 2,000 year old gladiator, I can't help but watch and enjoy (if you don't mind).
Otherwise, just start posting your criticisms of Finkelstein and you will get a response (either in support or disagreement).
This isn't an opera!
mingoi313 2 years ago
I told you, to prove that everything Finkelstein says in this video (or debate) is true and not "pure invention", as his mentor Peter Novick said about Finkelstein's writing.
OBZ 2 years ago
Look, you are the one contesting that the above is NOT true. Hence, the onus is on you to provide the evidence that it is indeed as you say it is.
It is like taking someone to court and asking him to prove his innocence. Stop wasting our time. If you have nothing constructive to offer, please add to these discussions with your silence.
mingoi313 2 years ago
Ok then. For starters, lets start with Finkelstein's claim that the World Court ruled in 2004 that all settlements are illegal. He is, in fact, bullshitting. What the World Court did rule in 2004 was that the West Bank barrier was illegal, not the settlements.
Israel made a chart showing the reduction of terrorist attacks from year to year. They wanted to show it to the court in their defense, but the court refused to see it and simply ruled the wall to be illegal.
OBZ 2 years ago
Here's the direct text from the Court advisory opinion (paras 70-78):
At the close of its analysis, the Court notes that the territories situated between the Green Line and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan.
mingoi313 2 years ago
You say it better than I can. Court advisory "opinion".
OBZ 2 years ago
The ICJ was asked for an opinion. Go and read the preliminary of the released material.
I should add here that Israel - that so called beacon of freedom! - tried to prevent the ICJ from offering its opinion. The above is also substantiated in the preliminary part of the released material.
I hope you can verify this yourself and tell us of your findings.
Thanks in advance.
mingoi313 2 years ago 3
Instead of telling me to find all these sources, would you please lay them out? Show me the preliminary of the released material, show me the source where Israel tried preventing the ICJ from offering its opinion, and show me that my premise is entirely contradictory, I'm not going to look around for the sources, so please lay them out in this beacon of freedom.
Thank you.
OBZ 2 years ago
Under customary international law, the Court observes, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories have done nothing to alter this situation. The Court
concludes that all these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and that Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.
mingoi313 2 years ago
Did they claim that the settlements were legal?
nygiants92215 2 years ago
who? the ICJ?
OBZ 2 years ago
And for another simple rebuttal to him, he claims that the first intifada was a non-violent one. Another bullshit claim. However, this one is a half truth. Some of the intifada involves protesting, graffiti, etc., while the other part involves throwing rocks and fighting with guns, knives, etc. Sources claimed that 160 Israelis and over 900 Palestinians were killed. Some "non-violent" intifada.
OBZ 2 years ago
Putting aside the cavalier reporting of the number of Palestinian deaths, please provide an exact source for where Finkelstein stated that the First Intifada was PURELY and ONLY non-violent.
Finkelstein correctly states that the First Intifada was mainly non-violent. Israel response was rolling in the tanks, but that's not something you'd state now, would you?
Thanks.
mingoi313 2 years ago 5
Is Israel's "disproportionate" response with tanks what bothers you? I hate to sound insensitive, but I don't care. Israel's job is to target the cause of the problem, not to just bang them and say "that's what you get".
OBZ 2 years ago
Your argument pre-supposes that Israel has the "right", and it is the Palestiniand who are on the wrong side of international law.
Sadly, the above premise is not only wrong, but the truth is entirely contradictory.
mingoi313 2 years ago 11
@mingoi313 Agreed 110%. Thanks for posting this up.
FLARE95127 1 year ago
@OBZ Israel is run by manics and you either have to be either missing half your brain or one evil shameless prick to support them. this isn't even about stopping terrorists, and if you actually know this (i don't say this to many people) you actually deserve death.)
It's about one rich special interest no-hearted group (whom btw deserve a thousand bullets each until they're un-recognizable) stealing the land of another poorer people, in any way possible because or their superstitious beliefs.
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat Wow, considering that your arguments are well backed up with credible sources and are a direct response to all that I've said, I'm shocked that you're actually telling the truth! And thanks for the death wish :)
OBZ 1 year ago
@OBZ Youtube is hardly the platform for source listings.
As for my death-wish to you. if you opinion even somewhat leave others, even slightly sympathetic to your cause, which in turn fuels Israels support balancing act and allows them to continue, then this indirectly leaves Palestinians dead at the hands of people who shouldn't even be there. So then what i'm really saying is i'd prefer an innocent live to survive rather than your either ignorant or just plain stupid one. Israel's end is nigh
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat I disagree, I believe you can provide sources on youtube, though you may have to make several posts to fit everything.
Your argument is very general, and I would appreciate if you make it more specific. What I'm getting from you is that Israel is an aggressor which is directly responsible for the death of Palestinians.
Wrong. Let's take Gaza for example. If Israel wanted to maximize casualties, why did they drop leaflets and call Gazans to stay out of the way of fire?
OBZ 1 year ago
@OBZ have you read the goldstone report? and are you religious in any sense?
By bringing it down into specific examples, you can parade spotting insignificant error in my arguments akin to the familiar tactic a creationist arguing with an atheist would use. On the whole Israel's government will do anything to take Palestinian land, and Israel seems to think, being there thousands of years ago justifies taking from them now.
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat And yes the goldstone report verifies that Israel has killed innocent Palestinians sometimes unintentionally and sometimes even on purpose.
So my point stands about you either being half-brained or as shameless as supporting murder; something that is down there with baby-rape, pedophilia and necrophilia; That's what you are.
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat I think you're just repeating false statements without any knowledge of what's true or false. My guess is that before replying to this, you're going to dig through the internet for sources that may back your arguments, and of course you'll find a sigh in relief if you happen to find anything.
OBZ 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat As for taking Palestinian lands, why did Israel withdraw from Gaza in 2005?
As for the Goldstone Report, happy reading:
goldstonereport . org
camera . org /index . asp ? x_context=2 & x_outlet=118&x_article=1736
The investigations in the report have been conducted very unprofessionally, and these two websites prove it.
OBZ 1 year ago
@OBZ Unproffesional!? are you serious? it is one of the most careful fair-minded things i've read. & The rebuttals deal with menial things. EVERY country but those with obvious reasons for leaning in israels favour (eg. US, Israel and a few bought-out small nations) favour support the Goldstone report and the UN.
What's your view of meashimer and Walt's piece: "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy"? lol is that too an un-professional piece?
and Jimmy Carter's "peace not apartheid"
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat I don't think you understand how significant the rebuttals are. First of all, many of the standards applied to Israel are not applied to its enemies. Therefore, it makes it easier to delegitimize Israel through double standards. Also, the Goldstone Report states harsh things done by Israel, but doesn't really acknowledge all of the evidence that Hamas used its population as human shields (as proven in the CAMERA report), therefore increasing the civilian death toll.
OBZ 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat Doesn't really matter what other countries believe, it doesn't change the facts, does it?
As for the two books you've listed, yes I do indeed find them unprofessional. Happy reading:
camera . org / index . asp ?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=190 & x_article=1446
camera . org / index . asp ?x_context=7&x_issue=35 & x_article=1099
camera . org / index . asp ?x_context=2&x_outlet=118 & x_article=1273
camera . org / index . asp ?x_context=2&x_outlet=118 & x_article=1238
OBZ 1 year ago
@OBZ Yes, actually it does matter. It is very hard for 180+ countries to be wrong even though this is not 'evidence', it should serve as an indication.
And you point to CAMERA. This is a biased organisation created for the sole purpose of deceiving and lying. Can you actually tell me where meashimer and walt are wrong? or did u just search for it on the CAMERA site knowing they'd have a refutation ready.
You don't seem to know get
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat Actually, 114 countries endorsed the report, not 180+. However, when you take out the Arab nations which already have a bias against Israel (here a bias is significant because this is the official UN vote, not some activism campaign), you will find out that the numbers are not as high as you think.
OBZ 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat Why do you assume that I just searched it on CAMERA knowing they would have it ready? Have you maybe happened to think that I could have possibly known about the CAMERA page prior to this debate? I learned about where the authors are wrong through CAMERA, and I verified many of the sources, which happen to be true.
Now I have a question for you: Can you tell me where CAMERA is wrong? You can't accuse someone of lying and not back yourself up.
OBZ 1 year ago
@OBZ You point to CAMERA, a site, even as you say is pro-israel to decypher and refute a touchy topic such as the Israeli conflict.
Do you not understand that when dealing with these issues, almost any case for any issue can be made if enough seaching for the right sources occurs. Creationist claiming evidence against atheism is an excellent example of this.
So until you point to a source, un-biased! i will properly decypher it, because otherwise i'll be here forever.
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
btw, why won't you answer. are you religious in any sense?
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat I am somewhat religious, but not extremely. However, I do respect other peoples right to be very or minorly religious.
OBZ 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat And perhaps you can argue that the articles by CAMERA stand alone separate from CAMERA's bias.
Arguments, when enough support and thought are put into them, can make the case for anything (see theism). These arguments seem twisted and would be a waste of time deciphering every hand-picked source and every claim it makes. It would be like arguing a creationist and having to know his arguments as well as they do just to refute it, and when you do, they always have another.
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat CAMERA doesn't mainly argue, it's job is to refute arguments.
I think you're making a general setting in order to make my arguments seem insignificant. There is nothing insignificant about me pointing out a source which takes arguments based on false facts and refuting then by providing sources which document the correct facts.
OBZ 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat CAMERA provides facts and evidence for it's findings, bias does not affect the facts. If you have a problem with that, then go ahead and decypher it. It doesn't have to be unbiased for you to refute it, I don't understand your logic.
OBZ 1 year ago
@OBZ CAMERA?! that is one of the most biased pro-Israel sources i could think of. What a joke.
People whom may come across "OBZ"
This guy is a ZEALOT for Israel who will point to biased network of sources in favour of Israel. Expose the Murder supporter if ever you see him spreading propaganda and nonsense.
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat Yes, CAMERA is biased, I could not agree more. Now explain to me how calling them "biased" disproves their facts. Some joke, huh?
People whom may come across "TheAttackRat"
This guy cannot back his arguments in a debate nor can he rebuttal other peoples arguments properly. Therefore, he resorts to slandering, name-calling, and will eventually tell you that you deserve to die. Try debating him, it's like talking to a wall.
I assume you didn't read the links I posted, right?
OBZ 1 year ago
@TheAttackRat Also, please be more specific with your statement of Palestinians dying at the hands of people who "shouldn't be there."
OBZ 1 year ago
And for the source, it's from a 60 minute presentation by Finkelstein at UC Berkeley in 2005. I believe there's a cd of it, but I'm not sure. However, you may be right about him saying it was "mainly" non-violent, but in Berkeley he may have said otherwise
OBZ 2 years ago
Norman is highly distinguished!
SLOWMOE said 'my approach is NOT moralistic, its strictly political'..
you get an idea of what kinda person he is..
faheemthedream2007 2 years ago 2
yah but he is honest and I respect him for that
Thank you Ben Ami for your rationality
peachybeach 2 years ago 2
atleast he doesn't bullshit like other zionists, I respect shlomo for his honesty.
With him you get what you see.
simply2ghetto 2 years ago 10
That's the difference between a politician that was a respected historian and a politician that was a member of an assassination squad (like most of their prime ministers)
NotSoLiberal 2 years ago 4
2:51 that small cmt will save him from being shot by Israelis, like Rabin.
bananito2 2 years ago
And people should investigate terrorism in America. It is VERY likely Israel is covertly involve in terrorist attack to turn America against Israel's enemies. Why fight a war when you can have somebody else fight a war for you and pay the financial and political cost right? Coincidently, the Bush's neocons who brought you the war in Iraq were mostly Jewish. Look it up!
Do you research. it's worth it.
MustacheVerra 2 years ago
Yeah
Research about Ben Gurion and JFK affair
bananito2 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MustacheVerra Even better read 'The Isreal Lobby and US Foreign Policy" by Meashimer and Walt.
TheAttackRat 1 year ago
God bless u Prof. Norman
NazarethR 2 years ago 3
I love Norman... i just love him.
libertineKuntSodom 2 years ago 4
"You won't find me justifying torture."
Oh snap!
juliaisafilmbuff123 2 years ago 3
lol
faheemthedream2007 2 years ago
What a pleasant change this debate was from the normal vitriol you get from the average Israel mascots, I have great respect for Shlomo Ben Ami for his maturity and tolerance in this debate. He accepted the points made and gave his own back without being insulting or overly aggressive like that idiot Dershowitz.
avisionofsorrow 2 years ago 5
Thank you for posting : )
maghrebianka 2 years ago
I don't know if it was a kind of win-lose debate but if it was then any doubts about Ben -Ami losing it are wiped out by the final sentence. bravo, Mr Ben-Ami. and remember, this guy is a dove!
stronzobello 3 years ago
"My approach is not moralistic, its strictly political". Biggest load of BS ever.
Trust me, there i sno doubt he lost this debate.
aussie1981 2 years ago 5
Actually I'd disagree on this point. Politicians whom make claims of virtue are always suspect in my eyes. It is of more value that a politician defines himself in terms of policy than shallow, demagogic platitudes. I respect him for that. That said, he did get pretty toasted by Norman.
flyhead2 2 years ago
Not morallistic, simply political.
Great! What is next, getting in bed with Satan to get a little warmer in winter.
Damn, what is this world turning into!
sujit77 3 years ago 2
That's not what he's saying. People are motivated by their morals, but they're motivated even more by their interests. What Ben-Ami is saying is that a practical solution the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can only be achieved if Israelis believe that a two-state solution is in their interests, not necessarily because they believe that the Palestinians deserve a state. The same applies for the Palestinians with regards to Israel.
jprg1966 2 years ago
jprg1966, to leave even the most mundane of social relations to the governance of interests in an unrestrained form is to invite catastrophe.
When we speak of the welfare and innate rights that human beings should enjoy, and how these are trampled over by an entity that is seeking to secure its "interests", then we should have the moral capacity to take a stance.
It is for this reason that the tools of international law should be respected, and their efficacy upheld.
mingoi313 2 years ago
How useful is international law if its strict adherence could actually get in the way of settling the conflict? The negotiations would obviously be between both parties, so any skirting of the law would have to be mutually agreed upon. All I'm saying is that if there's a reason why peace talks fail, it shouldn't be because both parties agreed to something that wasn't allowed under international law and therefore was thrown off the table.
jprg1966 2 years ago
We have to come to an agreement to what is meant by getting in the "way of settling the conflict".
If mutual interests were met by any treaty, with or without international law, we would have had a settlement by now. The problem arises due to a conflict of interests, and hence arises the need for a force to restrain and balance these interests with a level of fairness.
International law does not by any means treat out ideal justice in conflict resolution, but is rather based on fairness.
mingoi313 2 years ago
Well said
idasputem 2 years ago
Thank you.
sujit77 2 years ago
The failure of this interest-qua-interest approach, without respect or objective treatment of accepted norms, is best exemplified in the Oslo talks. Listen closely to what Ben Ami made of the talks and the "destructive ambiguity" that resulted from it.
mingoi313 2 years ago
Agreed.
sujit77 2 years ago
Well said.
idasputem 2 years ago
Shalom-The Zionist regime in israel have no idea what Teshuvah is?The International community will be unable to convince the Gestapo regime to eliminate their arrogance and disregard for human lives.The most important word here is:"teshuvah gamurah"
bklynwriter718 3 years ago
Disregard that sentence fragment.
Jrotten11 3 years ago
Wow, Ben-Ami's final word is a really terrible
Jrotten11 3 years ago 3
Yes its despicable thing to say that he's not concerned for the palestinians...IF he meant it the way it sounded.
Benefit of the doubt says he meant that it isnt JUST because he is concerned for the palestinians that he wants a solution but that he feels it is also in the very BEST interests of Israel.
Other wise that was utter douchebaggery.
nijaexhile3 3 years ago 3
this whole debate is very good. Ben Ami loose it. Every single point that Finkelstein give is a hard solid fact. Nevertheless in this debate Ben Ami act very civilized unlike our fellow beloved Douchewitt
kazearaki 3 years ago 2
Brilliantly illuminating debate. Should be required viewing for all Americans.
GregsDailyVlog 3 years ago 4
Interesting?Mr.Ben Ami considers himself an ardent Zionist!For some reason,the orthodox jews do not recognize the Zionist capital of israel.I do not hate any race or creed. Shalom!
bklynwriter718 3 years ago
this is untrue...are you neturai karta?
if so, you have been excommunicated and have no right to consider yourself as part of the klal
it is time for you to do teshuva, or stfu
brabon1 3 years ago
whether you agree with dr. finkelstein or not, you have to concede that he's unfathomably intelligent
discovermoi 3 years ago 10
the only solution is to kick them all out
IslamzSuperior 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
thank you for proving that Norman finkelstein is completely wrong on not what Israel is doing wrong but about the will of the palestinians. witch as you said is the kick us all out
ma11ohad 3 years ago
It IS remarkable how much these two agree on, and you'll see more of what I mean if you listen to the full debate.
rayb0b 3 years ago 2
This is an excellent debate. With some caveats. Norman presents a good case, though his smugnees towards the end means he presents his opinion as fact. For example the issue over terrorism is not numbers killed by tactics (this was in part 5), Norman manipulates the point here and is incorrect. Also in his allegations regarding hostage taking, he manipulates the issue by taking one side, and not placing it in the socio-political/military context, and he knows it!
thinkstable 3 years ago
Let's hear Finkelstein make an Arafat criticism for once.
kravitshalom 3 years ago
Use Google...He has indeed stated his opinions of Arafat and Hamas and even the Hizbullah on MANY occasions. They are irrelevant to the pertinent facts of the Israel-Palestine issue overall but he has nonethless made his position known on such poeple and organizations...and incidentally they are not 100% flattering...not even 25% actually.
So maybe know what your talking about before you try to dismiss his positions stated in this Ben Ami debate...which is the pertinent issue at hand.
deadlaughter2 3 years ago 2
Bingo. Peace is in the interest of the Israelis.
kravitshalom 4 years ago
OK here is something close to a 'case'. I even agree: Peace IS in the interest of the Israelis but their interests are irrelevant to policy as are the US public's interests. Expansion, encroachment, and enclosure is policy. Strong-arming and keeping a belligerent, rogue & reckless mititary presense in the Middle East is policy. Security of the Israeli and Palestinian people is an irrelevance to the powers that be. Those are the facts. If security was a concern, Israel would withdraw and fortify.
deadlaughter2 3 years ago 3
And America's policy toward it's own population is democratic? Why focus on other countries when we have a few issues here at home?
kravitshalom 3 years ago
I am not retarded enough to try to give a slandering, ignoramous of a Zionist a history & civics lesson. If you watch this video and it's other parts you will have a better grasp of the facts of the issue...that is, if you open your eyes and can see past your own ridiculously racist self-interests.
deadlaughter2 3 years ago 5
Do you think our govt's power and reach can't handle multiple issues? Do you think it's as black and white as "Well we have problems here, so why bother about the probles WE are funding, causing and encouraging over there?"
When Bush vetos a bill yesterday to ban US torture, does this not give "credibility" to Ben Ami in this debate as he lamely tried to justify Israel's torture practices?
There is NO justification for torture as policy. Period. If you think otherwise, then you're a pig.
deadlaughter2 3 years ago 7
Do you think our govt's power and reach can't handle multiple issues? Do you think it's as black and white as "Well we have problems here, so why bother about the probles WE are funding, causing and encouraging over there?"
When Bush vetos a bill yesterday to ban US torture, does this not give "credibility" to Ben Ami in this debate as he lamely tried to justify Israel's torture practices?
There is NO justification for torture as policy. Period. If you think otherwise, then you're a pig.
deadlaughter2 3 years ago
I love jewish people, just as I love all people. However, that does not change the fact that Israel is an illegal, terrorist state, (The United States is also), Zionism is racist, and Shlomo is a war criminal. For Israel to survive it will have to recognize a Palestinian state.
dadinosaur91 4 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
any time i read something that start with "I love ____ (insert minority here)" I know what follows will be bunch of bullshit written by a lying coward.
thenewrapstyle 4 years ago
Shlomo Ben Ami makes me proud to be zionist and jewish.
kravitshalom 4 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
me too. and people like finkelstein and chompsky are such pathetic, self-hating Jews.
thenewrapstyle 4 years ago