The West Wing -- Sam and Mallory

[bornbillsmith]

I like when she says are you taking over and when they leave she tell him to come

on sam.

She the type of women who even if it doesn't look it is always in charge.

She get's it from her fsther

[homris]

I'm not even going to bother to read all of this. All I can say is, if you think our system is broken (though I'm inclined to agree with you), just look at what's happening in Chile. Gives a whole new meaning to the line "Education is the silver bullet."

[Kasino80]

Why can't people just enjoy this epic show without turning it into congress in session...you annoy the crap out of everyone.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@ravingdissension Horsecrap, the model is outstanding, underfunding and too much standardized testing are the big problems. There is NOBODY with a plan for vouchers for every kid, no matter what you get kids left behind and the gap just increases. Plus, not one cent of public money should go into some of the bilge taught in radical right Christian "schools" The ONLY model that provides the best opportunity for ALL kids is a strong public education system.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@ravingdissension that the money goes to the wealthy at all is totally wrong. The idea that we leave the disabled in the horribly underfunded shell of public education widespread vouchers would leave or disabled only schools is sick. We know they do best in the least restrictive environment, as much as possible in a regular classroom with non-disabled or neuro-typical kids, not farmed out to the LD Trailer and hidden.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

You have yet to make a coherent case as to how its a transfer a wealth to the rich. Considering most education spending comes from property taxes, it is the private middle-class that foots the bills. Even so, everyone gets a rebate. I'm even for providing further subsidies to handicapped, mentally challenged, or inner city students to disperse them among successful schools. Yes, let's provide more funding for these kids, but let's also change the model as well.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@RavingDissension Actually I did, if you don't understand it, sorry, maybe you can find someone to explain it to you. Everyone does NOT "get a rebate" nor should ANYONE. That money belongs in our underfunded public schools! This despicable trash that you'll take more and more people away from public education, and leave the few that are left in a smoldering mess is bullshit. The ONLY way to provide educational opportunity to EVERY kid is strong public education.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

How many times are you going to repeat the same talking points? You've quite literally presented nothing new in your three responses, just reiterations of your previous statements. I realize now that rational debate is futile with a union propagandist such as yourself. Every time I ask "How?", you reply with the same scripted response: "NO!" Go ahead, have the last word.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@RavingDissension I don't do talking points, I do facts. I'm not a "progagandist", I'm a person who sees the ONLY way to get EVERY child the opportunity at a good education is a strong public school system. The fact is you seem to know very little about education except the same old teacher bashing bullshit the right's given us for decades. I've answered EVERY question, and you just ignore the answer. This IS a tax break for the wealthy, your refusal to see this is what's holding things up.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@RavingDissension The voucher movement came out of two lines of thought, each more disgusting than the other. You have rich people who don't want their kids in school with "the wrong sorts" (read: blacks) and Nazi Christians who want their children, ahem, "taught" that the earth is 8000 years old, that Genesis is a history text, that God loves capitalism and the USA, and that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle and abomination that will kill you.

Not a PENNY of public money should go to either.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@Ravingdissention you're in no place to call anyone moron. It damn well IS a tax break for the wealthy. Vouchers are NOT just for the needy, wealth people have the right to send kids to private schools, but still benefit from a well-educated populace, and education is a right for EVERYONE, a right harmed by vouchers. We need to pay our teachers better and properly fund our schools. Sam's dead right here, education makes EVERYTHING else work better.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

Yes, wealthy people can send their kids to private school. A voucher system allows poor people to send their kids to private school as well. Sam's solution is to throw money at something and hope it sticks. By his own admission, he has no strategic plan.

There are two sides to schooling- the financing and education. The education becomes privatized but the funding is publicly financed, allowing for poor people to access it.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@RavingDissension BULLSHIT! It "allows" a FEW poor people, while the rest are left off even WORSE. Going to a private school doesn't solve the problem, fixing the schools ALL the kids are in does. This LIE that investing in schools is just "throwing money" is BULLSHIT. Those in the schools KNOW what's needed, but it cannot be afforded. Funding private education with public funds WILL NOT WORK, those schools DON'T have to educate the disabled, DON'T have to follow the rules. It's immoral.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

A voucher system doesn't mandate that the private model as a whole be changed. It proposes converting the current public schools into competing entities as they do successfully in Holland and Denmark. Students are free choose and the schools are mandated not to deny admission. It allows every student to choose. The current system is one where so few vouchers are available that few students will receive them.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

"It damn well IS a tax break for the wealthy." And this is why you're a moron- making completely irrelevant charges without any proof.

How does a public education finance system that ties money to impoverished students instead of entitled teachers a tax break? Be specific; go deeper than your leftist slogans.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@RavingDissension It HAS been proven, you idiot. VOUCHERS GIVE MONEY BACK TO THE RICH THAT IS SUPPOSED TO GO INTO EDUCATION, IT IS A TAX CUT.

It does NOT "tie impoverished students" it leaves students BEHIND.

There's not a SOUL proposing vouchers for everyone, because there's no anywhere NEAR the private schools who'd take them. These schools CLAIM to do better, they don't take kids with disabilities, DON'T take kids from broken homes. The ONLY way to educate EVERY child is public education.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

Vouchers give money back to everyone, not just the rich, who by the way, will send their kids to private school no matter what. It's not a cut of any kind, because the money would then be sent to the school which a student chooses to attend.

And as for the disabled, we can set up private institutions specializing in just that and bankrolled by the taxpayer.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@RavingDissension that the money goes to the wealthy at all is totally wrong. The idea that we leave the disabled in the horribly underfunded shell of public education widespread vouchers would leave or disabled only schools is sick. We know they do best in the least restrictive environment, as much as possible in a regular classroom with non-disabled or neuro-typical kids, not farmed out to the LD Trailer and hidden.

Hello?? Can't answer the true reality??

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

You leftists are unbelievable. You invoke Europe and East Asia as models when it comes to finances, healthcare, etc. But not education. Of course, costs have risen you idiot- the main factor of which is- wait for it- teacher's salaries.

I love your solution- if every teacher made over a 100k, students would magically learn more.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@RavingDissension LIAR!!! My GOD you are an IDIOT!! Teachers salaries are NOT the reason for cost increases! IDEA is. And you STILL don't have a clue what that is, do you? You know NOTHING about schooling, NOTHING about education.

It would DRAMATICALLY improve education if teachers made 100,000, it would cause better and better candidates to go into teaching. You bet your ASS learning would improve.

But that's FAR from the only place money's desperately needed in our schools.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

A school in NYC pays its teachers 125k per annum. It's hired Harvard graduates and lifelong professionals, but the results have failed to show that this salary hike has improved learning or performance of students. The evidence of higher pay leading to success just isn't there.

Even the most liberal estimates charge that IDEA is responsible for 2/5 of education spending increases. Where did the rest go?

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@ravingdissention there are big problems with your Rush Limbaugh version of education issues.

Costs HAVE risen, which corrosponds with IDEA, and if you don't know what that is, quit blindly bashing teachers and others who work for better communities and a better country instead of corporate greed.

And ranking test scores from different countries is perfectly worthless. They test college bound, we test ALL students.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

"quit blindly bashing teachers and others who work for better communities and a better country instead of corporate greed."

Wrong, they're simply those who went to college and couldn't find work in the private sector.

"And ranking test scores from different countries is perfectly worthless. They test college bound, we test ALL students."

No, you can select a random sample from any developed country in secondary school, college-bound or not, and you will see better results.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@RavingDissension BULLSHIT!! YOU LYING SACK OF SHIT!!! Your rancid despicable attacks on teachers PROVE you don't know SHIT about education. There are THOUSANDS of teachers who could work in the private sector but CHOOSE to do something better, something more worthwhile, even though it costs them hundreds of thousands of dollars over a career, in some cases MILLIONS.

It's a LIE to claim you get better results from every nation. The test scores that's based on ARE NOT THE SAME KIDS.

[RavingDissension]

Sam's ideal world: An average American in the private sector earning less than 50k a year should be forced to pay taxes so a public employee can earn over a 100k.

Never mind the fact that since the 1970's, education spending per capita has only gone up. Test scores haven't gotten any better, but... You guessed it Sammie- teacher's salaries and union clout has increased dramatically.

You can hold schools in diamond spires, but it's not gonna change a thing.

[natasbrakas]

"you're taking over?"

"i'm taking over."

few seconds later

"come along sam"

pfft, whipped

[allenlobo]

"..incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free for citizens".... such drama, such emotion..such crap!

Who is the "government" that pays for it? Some supernatural space daddy paying for this supposedly "free" product or service? Of course not - its the citizens through their taxes.

Common sense dictates that any monopoly has little incentive to improve its services. Why should it when it has a captive group of customers who have no choice? The public school system is no different.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@allenlobo Well, no, in fact that's total garbage. First off, it's a lie to claim public education is a "monopoly". People are free to choose private education or home schooling. It's also utter malarky to claim that without the mumbo jumbo b.s. of "competition" there is "little incentive to improve". There's NO line of work where people have MORE incentive. Not to make a corporation more wealthy but out of caring for the kids. Not everything's about profit uber alles.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

"People are free to choose private education or home schooling."

Yes, but they still have to pay for the public schools, so in effect, yes, it is a monopoly.

"There's NO line of work where people have MORE incentive."

Teachers get tenured. Once your job is secure, WHAT POSSIBLE INCENTIVE COULD YOU HAVE TO IMPROVE YOUR TEACHING?

Teacher's unions are the bane of America's children.

[segasonichq]

Advocating a voucher system for free choice of privately owned schools is the opposite of fascism, it's pushing citizens away from government owned institutions. The phrase "expensive for government and absolutely free of charge for its citizens" is absolutely moronic. Government spending means two things MUST happen in order for money to get spent. 1) Citizens must be taxed. 2) Inflationary debt must be made so that the money can be made available immediately through treasury bonds and loans.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@segasonichq It's not fascism per se, but it is a horrible idea. It doesn't push anyone away from anything, it's just a tax cut for the rich and harms public schools. You talk about "goverment" as if it were some distant and evil force. This is America, we are the governmetn. There's nothing "moronic" about educating our children, it's the single most important responsibility we have as a society. Yes, people are taxed, grownups GET that there have to be taxes. It's WORTH it. Every damn penny.

[RavingDissension]

@PrisonerNumber9653

You moron. Vouchers are publically-financed private schools. It allows the option of a private school for the economically disadvantaged. The current system has the gov't finance education and administer it. A voucher system only effects the administration aspect of it. Ergo, it is not a tax break. And yes it harms the public schools b/c people choose to send their kids to the charter schools instead of the already defunct public schools.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@RavingDissension you're in no place to call anyone moron. It damn well IS a tax break for the wealthy. Vouchers are NOT just for the needy, wealth people have the right to send kids to private schools, but still benefit from a well-educated populace, and education is a right for EVERYONE, a right harmed by vouchers. We need to pay our teachers better and properly fund our schools. Sam's dead right here, education makes EVERYTHING else work better.

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@PrisonerNumber9653 (pardon the double post, was out of town and doing this on a cell phone doesn't work too well, especially when you spell the user name wrong)

[BetaArtemis]

lol Leo was hilarious, "yes you may go have lunch with a fascist.."

[keithsmd1948]

Relax, Mallory.

Sams not really in favor of helping poor parents desperate for a better education for their children. He wants to keep the poor kids imprisoned in failing schools run by hidebound bureaucracies and self-serving unions, just like you do.

Modest proposal: No politician who opposes school vouchers is allowed to send his children to private school. Tell the misses Obama to pack up. Theyre leaving Sidwell Friends and going to DC public schools.

[Gamersvikes]

Only problem is that Obama is not against school vouchers, but never let the facts get in the way of hating Obama.

[keithsmd1948]

He's certainly not for vouchers.

I don't hate President Obama. I disagree with him on some political issues, but I wish only health and happiness to him personally.

[segasonichq]

@Gamersvikes watch?v=l7FS5B-CynM

[grumpytosnowwhite]

Oh poor, poor Sam. He gets let down so much, his ideals are never fulfilled. I always feel so sorry for him--like that education speech he ran away with that one time, building up this glorious, utopian system, only to be struck down by Toby yelling "Where are we gonna get the money??"--that kind of stuff just kills people like Sam.

[shriramvenu]

or the environmental speech that toby ruined with a irrational drop in

[GOP71]

schools should be cathedrals.....sounds great but gets bastardized by those in public policy sectors and activist teachers. And Mallory just pushes my buttons.....so right! (bad grammer, but you know what I mean:)

[lennybaseball]

i like the next line. leo looks at sam and says, you're doing fine.

[aim1221]

When Sam left, the show lost alot of its humor and wit. Rob Lowe should have stayed. Leaving the show was a mistake on his part and on Warner Bros.

[wadde]

you got it wrong, the show lost its humor and wit because AARON SORKIN left. rob lowe just happened to leave together with sorkin.

[grumpytosnowwhite]

I think it was a combination: the show might have survived if Lowe stayed and allowed the awesome ensemble of characters to remain intact, even without Sorkin's magic touch; while the awesome characters might have stood a chance without Lowe, as long as Sorkin's magic touch was there to handle the loss. Losing them both at the same time is what killed the show.

[722treered]

education is the silver bullet, education is every thing...

[Vares65]

Education should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge for it's citizens JUST LIKE NATIONAL DEFENSE.

[RaleighDawlishRaynar]

That is a great scene.

[meaganlskoritfw]

If this doesn't make you fall in love with Sam Seaborn, I don't know what will.

PS: as a future teacher, this is kind of my life philosophy and is posted on my wall!