Liverpool Overhead Railway / Messerschmitt Attack.

[Snedger]

I worked with a man some years ago in Liverpool who, too young for the forces during the Blitz was a volunteer with the AFS. He could remember hearing aerial gunfire during the raids. I wonder was it the bomber's own machine guns being fired. That might account for it.

[jukkaokauppinen]

Well. Nice video but historically incorrect. Me 109s did not operate that far inland during Battle of Britain. The event is made up or the location is remembered incorrctly. Liverpool was targeted by night bombers, that were not escorted. If this sort of event ever took place, it would be documented by local historicians or aviation enthusiasts. You should consult them before doing anything further, because otherwise the whole effort is just wasted.

[stevenpw]

@jukkaokauppinen

As I've pointed out in previous posts, I have consulted people who remember this event and also some that are similar (in Liverpool). 5 in all. As a matter of fact, two of these PRIMARY SOURCES are in the documentary, one of whom works at a local museum.

Your profile says your 39, which means you where born after WW2, so where ever your getting your information from seems incorrect.

[jukkaokauppinen]

@stevenpw

So, what documented sources there are? People tend to remember things wrong. People even invent things and lie. Things get distorted.

Fact is, so far. while Luftwaffe bombers did raid Liverpool, those were night raids. There were no raids escorted by Me 109s. It did not have the range for the job.

Again, I suggest you to research the background for this supposed event, see what has been written on it, the date then this happened. reference it against Luftwaffe raids on this date.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@jukkaokauppinen

Individual planes did fly over Liverpool in broad daylight. They tended to be the longer range JU88s.

I recall one lady telling me she saw a dog fight over the river. What planes were involved I don't know.

[stevenpw]

@jukkaokauppinen

ME 109's where also used for reconnaissance missions. Many people from Liverpool claim to have seen them in the city during the war. With the use of drop tanks, it seems feasible that their range could make it that far.

I'm making a film based on peoples memories, if you wish to further debate them, buy the DVD when it's available, track down the interviewees, and take it up with them.

[jukkaokauppinen]

@stevenpw

Trusting witnesses "I was there, I saw with my own eyes" is notoriously unreliable, especially with wartime events. Everything must be always compared to written documents and checked if those have any correlation. As the major fact is, Me 109 did not have range to reach Liverpool and return. Sure, Liverpool was raided many times and many things certainly happened. A lone 109 strafing railway is just a confused story, though, unless the event can be verified from archives.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@jukkaokauppinen

"Trusting witnesses "I was there, I saw with my own eyes" is notoriously unreliable, especially with wartime events."

The event and location are not in question - I'm sure the Overhead Rail ways was hit by alone plane. It was bombed along it length. Just the model of plane is in question.

[danielmills3]

@stevenpw my nan jean nightingale was on a train in liverpool and it was shot at by nazis

[jukkaokauppinen]

Well. Nice video but historically incorrect. Me 109s did not operate that far inland during Battle of Britain. The event is made up or the location is remembered incorrctly. Liverpool was targeted by night bombers, that were not escorted. If this sort of event ever took place, it would be documented by local historicians or aviation enthusiasts. You should consult them before doing anything further, because otherwise the whole effort is just wasted.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@jukkaokauppinen

"Well. Nice video but historically incorrect. Me 109s did not operate that far inland during Battle of Britain."

The planes over the city could have been later than 1940.

[TimRuffle]

FWIW I knew someone who remembered her school being strafed by a Messerschmidt when she was in the playground- this is in the North East so I guess the range would be about the same unless it came from Norway.

I suppose it's possible that every enemy aircraft was a Messerschmidt to her at school age but presumably someone took notes.

[stevenpw]

@TimRuffle

Thanks Tim. I've done a bit of research and found out that the Messerchmitts carried drop tanks (extra fuel) and did in actual fact make it as far as Liverpool.

[stevenpw]

@NearAbbeyRoad

Apparantley the Me 109's carried drop tanks, and on this BBC website another eye witness gives his account of witnessing such planes over Liverpool:

But the war had its good points as far as I was concerned as a ten year old boy watching real dogfights between Spitfires and German planes. They were Messserschmidt 109s fighters that had been accompanying the Dornier bombers.

For some reason youtube won't allow me to post a link to the site but I will PM you.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

The quickest kill from take off in WW2 was at Liverpool airport when a Hurricane flow by a Czech, took off to intercept a Ju 88. The plane was retracting its wheels when the Ju 88 crossed its path and he opened up. The JU 88 came down at Brombrough Dock.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

Nice. Did this event happen? If it did it would not be with a Me 109 fighter as they never had the range to reach Liverpool. Ju 88s often flew over the city alone.

Great animation!

[stevenpw]

@NearAbbeyRoad

Thanks for pointing that out. According to our source who was an eye witness at the time, it was a Messerchmitt. This is part of a documentary I'm making.

How do you know Messerscmitts didn't come to Liverpool .?

Cheers.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@stevenpw

The range of the Me 109 was too short, although rare versions with drop tanks were available. An unarmed long range photo reconnaissance Me 109 was shot down near Liverpool in 1944.

The twin engined Me 110 and Ju 88s were over Liverpool in the early part of the war, when lone plane attacks were common. One of these would have probably been the plane. The last heavy bombing raids were in 1942 when Hitlers's brothers house was the last to be hit in Stanhope St.

I hope this helps.

[stevenpw]

@NearAbbeyRoad

We've carried out a couple of interviews which mentions Messerchmitts and dog fights being witnessed above Liverpool. One story mentions a Messerchmitt shooting up a bus packed full of civilians.

I'll have to look into this.

Do you think perhaps it could have been some other small German fighter plane ?

Cheers.

[NearAbbeyRoad]

@stevenpw

At that time in the war only the Me 109 was a front line German fighter. It was to attack other planes and as a bomber escort over south England. Used also for ground attack supporting German troops carrying a small bomb - not ideal for the role. Liverpool was too far, larger twin engine fighter/bombers were used - slower and less maneuverable than the me109, but carried bombs and had range. The Germans switched from daylight lone attacks to night time only after heavy losses