There is no proof for the existence of God,thats just the way Hes made things to be the only thing that pleases Him is faith.Therefore no logical proof.However,because His creation surrounds us,we have no reasonfor unbelief.Our choice,in a sense,iseither we believe what other unbelievers teach us,whether they be scientistsatheists etc,or we go against the tide,because deep inside we have something telling us that God must exist,and we have an obligation to ourselves,at least to seek Him
@baconeater Over the years there have been a great number of scientists that have sought truth by faith,and found God,because their scientific findings bring them to a dead-end.Does this mean that they have bought into a fairy tale,or that they have become dis-illusioned by science bassed answers.God will not be found by *proof"and I say that because I used to think that I needed proof.Also because the Bible teaches that it is useless to try and find God in that way
@allanford22 The bible? LOLOLOL Scientists can believe in God, who says they can't. Are you assuming scientists have to be atheists? Science is not a dead end though.
BTW, God won't be found using anything. You can't find what doesn't exist.
And please when you say many scientists found God, define many? And believing in God doesn't mean believing in the idiotic God of the NT, OT or Koran. Those are complete fairy tales.
@baconeater of course scientists can believe in God,I dont assume otherwise,and I didnt say science is a dead end and many is an undefined number meaning a lot rather than a few.But the point is that God can never be proven to exist by science.Science is discovering more about the world we live in but will not discover God,because He is only found by faith.Because faith can not be seen ,does not mean that it is not real any more than saying God is not real because He is not seen.
@allanford22 And an invisible pink unicorn can be real because there is no evidence for it either. There is no reason for a God, and more importantly, no evidence for a God.
@baconeater I notice that you say "more importantly" no evidence for God,which is exactly why He can never be proven to exist. No evidece=no proof which is what I have been saying.You say "There is no reason for a God, "surely the question is are we here by means of reason?If we exist purely by chance,then there is no reason behind it.But if we believe we are here for a reason,then it is good to search for true answers rather than fight against them
@allanford22 There is no reason for a God or Gods. It is pretty simple. There is no reason behind life, it just happened. Live with it or pretend and make up a reason. Your choice. Can you prove that there isn't an invisible man under my bed who does absolutely nothing. What if I say he is the reason I snore?
I have a feeling this will go over your head, but I say it for the lurkers.
@baconeater youre right,it went over my head Its a shame you feel youve no reason to be here.I would disagree with that,because I believe we are all unique.But as you say,its my choice.and youve chosen to believe youre an accident rather than here by reason and design
Check out the Kalam cosmological argument, the teleological argument, the moral argument, the ontological argument and common sense(Oh you already debunked that way to know God). Atheism literally has no leg to stand on, they rehash the same arguments until blue in the face but to no avail. I tried to provide evidence, but you were too busy talking about Leprechauns and insulting my very existence. Atheists lack morality, its a denial of good and an embracement of poor logic and moral anarchy.
So what you are saying, Vanmeter, is that you are basically an evil immoral person, and the only thing saving the rest of us from your blind homicidal rage, drunken orgies, and indifference to personal property is your belief in God?
I'm moral and do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because someone tells me to do it, and certainly not out of fear of anything that may or may not happen in the afterlife.
Life is too short to waste it on empty or poor acts.
Not necessarily, I don't think that if I became convinced of the non-existence of God that I would do those things. Atheism is however a great logical justification for hedonism and maximizing pleasure. Morals only serve to perpetuate and protect the species under atheism. Any meaning attributed to moral sensibilities are totally an illusion in that view. So I wouldn't really be a hedonist just because those acts really wouldn't fulfill me as say helping the poor would.
"So I wouldn't really be a hedonist just because those acts really wouldn't fulfill me as say helping the poor would."
Okay, so your argument is if there was no religion, then nobody would help the poor and that nobody would do anything if it wasn't for themselves? What about "altruism is it's own reward?" What about the endorphins released in the brain when you commit acts of altruism? Helping others feels good on a chemical level, and that has nothing to do with faith.
Again I'm speaking more from ontology. I don't care if we or any other animals survive if all of it is self-existing. In fact, isn't it easier just to extinguish life in a moment of suffering rather than go on in a godless illogical universe that is pitilessly indifferent?
NO assfuck . We live happy lives BECAUSE we know there is no afterlife. We enjoy it while we are here (much more than idiots like you who live for something in the afterlife which is a complete fallacy.
Its because through my Christian experience do I not gain fulfillment out of doing evil things, it only makes me feel like my soul is burning with emptiness and shame. The human heart is by nature disgusting and filthy, the only thing that can sway it is the holiness through Christ. Look at baconeater for example, the moment you disagree he completely slanders your character totally apart from argumentation and treats you as a madman. Even if he thinks I am mad, he can at least be compassionate.
If I am indeed a victim of a philosophy solely made to make people behave, why not have pity and compassion? Its because he doesn't feel compassion or pity along with everyone else who spends their time slandering Christian theism and promoting other ideologies. I really treasure those few instances where you get an atheist who actually accepts that their is no right or wrong if there is no God.
"I really treasure those few instances where you get an atheist who actually accepts that their is no right or wrong if there is no God."
And this explains why you don't get compassion from Bacon here. You're trying to force your concept of what a person should be onto him. It's very rude. I don't come to your house or office and tell you how to be. I don't come to your church and demand you let me preach non-christian values during the homily. And I don't offer pity to people who choose to.
W/e don't make bacon the victim. He was rude through and through. I'm not forcing logic onto anyone, the logic itself stands objective apart from us. There is no shield like ignorance. *Ontologically* speaking, no God = no objective moral values. That is as factual as 2 + 2 = 4. If we as human beings are the arbiters of what is good and what is evil, you will never come to an agreement let alone determine as finite beings what is good and evil. You need an ultimate arbiter who brings justice.
Ontology. The philosophy that describes what entities can be said to exist. Okay. I wasn't aware that it had extrapolated that the non-existence of God excludes morality in humans. Though I'm glad you brought this up.
Would you say a Buddhist is an immoral person, then? What about extemist Muslims; was 9/11, an act they argue was done FOR God, a moral act?
Let's go deeper. Let's assume it's only God as Christians know him that is valid. Are all Christians moral? None of them go to jail?
I believe Islam is barbaric and it very clearly blurs the line between virtue and sin. It doesn't line up at all with what always has been considered as virtues, things such as compassion, self-sacrifice, love etc. A Buddhist may very well be a pretty good person, but the problem is that you can't erase your badness with virtue. Its a choice, you either trust in your own good works or you trust in the concept of grace. Buddhism really has nothing to say about many things that Christ answers.
I'm going to disagree. From what I can see, Muslims are VERY passionate, and they are willing to make the penultimate sacrifice. I can't speak on love, not knowing any loving Muslims personally.
As for erasing your badness with virtue, I'm going to disagree with you on that matter. I will agree that it is better to be a good person from the get go, but I also think a person who was once bad can start to do good things and build a new life on the foundation of these good deeds.
Well you may gain human favor by changing your ways, turning from bad ways. Law doesn't work like that, even in human government. You murder, you will forever be a murderer and if the authorities find you then you have to pay for it. God is the same way according to the Christian scriptures except he will judge your heart as well. So if you hate then you will be subject to judgment. Its basically human government with omniscience added in and all moral corruption taken out.
I've never seen anyone being judged. You don't need to see something in order to have reason to believe that thing. Evolutionary theory for example. You've never seen it happen on the grand scale proposed by the phylogenetic tree, but you believe it because of DNA and supporting fossil evidence and whatever other reasons whether personal or scientific.
Okay, we'll play the word game. Do you have supporting evidence that God judges people? And being told by a person or in a book doesn't count anymore than if I tell you in person or in writing that I currently live on the surface of the sun.
This book not only talks about judgment, it diagnoses human nature to a T. I have quite the conviction that people can't do whatever they please in this life. The reasons why I believe the Bible are innumerable.
Okay, I'll let you not answer my previous question and ask a new one. Who decided humans were sick and required a diagnoses?
I also have the conviction that people can't do whatever they please. A society where everyone does as they please is inherently flawed. It cannot sustain for more than a few generations before imploding. It can be observed in nature.
The people, the victims, they were demographically Christian by a sweeping majority, but in the aftermath of the hurricane, fell to looting, robbery, assault and things of that nature.
Had police and National Guard not gone in to impose martial law over these folks, had it been allowed to continue this way, how long do you think that slice of society would have lasted?
I doubt very seriously, that those who were looting and committing assaults and robberies in New Orleans were largely Christian. What gives you that notion?
New Orleans is one of the most religious cities in the United States, so perhaps you would prefer me to say, "It is highly likely, given the religiousness of New Orleans, that the looters were religious people."?
Or is it your opinion that only non-religious people would loot? (Say yes say yes, oh wow do I have proof to the contrary!)
LOL!! That is the most nonsensical statement I believe I have ever heard made on the internet in all the years I've been on it..
Are you not aware of how the crime rate in Houston spiked after busloads of former New Orleans residents who were displaced by Katrina were relocated there? More than likely, these were the same culprits who were responsible for the high crime rate in New Orleans prior to Katrina.
I guarantee you, these were NOT busloads of born-again Christians who were sent to Houston. They were criminal element types. To suggest that Christians were responsible for the high crime rate in New Orleans, is completely insane.
And thank you for admitting that you, as a christian, would loot. It saves me the trouble of having to post statistics with YouTube making it unnecessarily difficult to post comments today for some reason. A first hand confession works just as good, wouldn't you say?
As for what you would or would not do in that situation, you haven't been there, so you can't really say for sure. Can you?
I would not loot for a big screen television set as I saw someone doing on the news.
I said I would loot to find food for my family if we had none and the city was shut down for several days. I don't know of a father alive who wouldn't do the same thing if it came down to a matter of survival. I'm not admitting that as a Christian, I'm admitting that as a father of five.
Yes I can. I can honestly say, if my family was faced with not having food for several days, I would do everything within my power to make sure they did have food.
You guarantee me? Did you do a survey? Did you poll every one of them? Or is this statement merely conjecture with no factual basis? Also, Christians commit crimes, too.
My point, is that those who were responsible for the spiking crime rate in Houston, were more than likely also responsible for the high crime rate in New Orleans prior to Katrina.
Okay. Even though it's still based on speculation, I will grant you that IF the people Houston hosted from New Orleans were the criminals responsible for a high crime rate in New Orleans, they may very well have contributed to an increase in crime in New Orleans. And?
And these people were and many probably still are, homeless. These were not church members running around Houston killing and robbing people. These were people who had no resources and were unable to get out of the city before Katrina hit. That, is why they were dependent upon New Orleans authorities shipping them to another city where they also had no resources.
I'm still at a loss to where the block is in your way of thinking that they couldn't be christian. You don't think homeless people can be christians? Likewise, you seem to have this impression that being part of a church prevents you from robbing people. These are not mutually exclusive states of being, you know.
Because true Christians, those who follow and adhere to the teachings of Christ and raise their children to follow and adhere to the teachings of Christ(as my wife and I do), by and large are not criminals. People like that adhere to the teachings in the scriptures and the scriptures forbid believers from doing anything like that.
This is how Jesus admonishes His followers to behave and conduct themselves.
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
True believers who conduct themselves in the way Christ taught us to conduct ourselves, are for the most part, not criminals, with the exception of the occasional speeding ticket. However, I will admit that Christians are capable of serious crimes but in most cases, they are in the minority.
My point, is that when a believer is walking in step with Jesus, as we are to do continually, the authorities do not have to worry about us running around breaking the law. There is nothing "elitist" about that.
There is a video here on Youtube of my pastor speaking on that very subject. If you would like to see for yourself what I'm referring to, search for Charles Stanley - Walking in Step with God.
Didn't want to read the passage, eh? Jesus's parable explains exactly my point. Then again, I understand most christians refuse to read the bible.
What's elitist? You're separating christians into groups. The "true" group, and "everyone else."
And you feel we should walk in step with a god that condones rape, torture, slavery, and child abuse? How is that not going to lead us to a life of crime? Watch "The Bible: Evidence That God Is Evil?" and try to excuse God's evil ways.
Actually, I did read the passage and I'm very familiar with that passage but sadly, that passage proves nothing. How interesting that you jumped to that conclusion that I didn't read it. Btw, I read the Bible daily, as a true regenerated Christian should.
That passage makes no point whatsoever in regard to your argument.
The truth of the matter, is that there are two types of people as far as God is concerned, believers and unbelievers.
People who are truly Christians or believers, meaning they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, are the smaller of the two groups. Furthermore, just because someone claims to be a Christian or believer, that doesn't mean they actually are.
There are many people who claim to be Christian based solely on the fact that they believe in God and attend or are members of a church. Sadly for them, they are no more Christian than Osama bin Laden is.
They have not received the regeneration of the Holy Spirit thusly they do not benefit from the abiding influence of the Holy Spirit. They have no relationship with God whatsoever even though they erroneously believe they do. They have what is known as demonic faith(James 2:19), not saving faith. Demonic faith, saves no one, hence the name. One must have saving faith to be saved.
This goes back to my point I was making yesterday, if someone is truly a regenerated follower of Christ(saving faith) and he/she is walking in step with God, they wont be going around committing crimes. This is why I made the comment I did in regard to the people most likely not being Christians(saving faith) who were responsible for the high crime rates in both New Orleans and Houston. The people may have been religious, but I doubt very seriously they were Christians.
As Jesus states, many will cry out "Lord Lord" who don't truly know Him. They claim to be Christian and they do Christian works, but that alone doesn't constitute a personal saving relationship with Jesus Christ. (Matt 7:22)
The only thing "The Bible: Evidence That God Is Evil?" proves, is that the person responsible for "The Bible: Evidence That God Is Evil?" is evil and has no clue whatsoever what they're talking about.
So you're completely okay with a person who tortures, kills, abuses children, and condones slavery, to the point where if someone else points out that he has done those things, that person is evil and not the one committing these acts? And you feel that a person of this nature is a good example of a role model and will prevent his followers from committing these crimes and more? Belief must truly be a wondrous and powerful force.
Of course I'm not ok with a person who tortures, kills, abuses children and condones slavery.
However, in regard to the slavery of the Bible, it was not necessarily an evil thing and, it served a purpose in the society of the times. The slavery of the Bible, was far different from the slavery that was practiced in the early beginnings of our nation. Slavery in the Bible, was not based exclusively on race, so people were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin.
In the Bible, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters. In the Bible, slavery was many times a means to put food on the table for the families of slaves.
The reason there were numerous biblical laws written to govern its practice, was because it was so much a part of their society that it needed to be regulated. Yes, the Bible governed its practice, but again, it wasn't necessarily an evil practice at the time.
It states, if he survives a day or two. The point being, that if he doesn't die right away, then the general belief, is that there was no intent to kill the slave so the master can not be tried for murder, which in accordance with the law, implies an intent to kill.
It was generally thought that if the slave lingered on for a day or two, the possibility existed that he may have died due to other causes. The benefit of the doubt, was afforded to the accused, which is no different from our very own modern day legal system.
So biblical law states you can beat the snot out of someone, but as long as you didn't intend to kill the person, it's A O K? And if you beat someone to near death, but they don't die right away, you didn't kill them? Swell legal system.
By now we're way off topic, and rather than cover every single issue we could possibly bring up, I think I'll just leave it as is for now.
In the Bible, slavery was a necessary component of the socioeconomic system of the Jews, so laws were given to govern its practice. If the slave did not die right away, yes, it was generally believed that there may not have been an intent to cause death. Since the slave didn't die right away, it gave rise to reasonable doubt that there was an intent to kill.
As I said, in that sense, it is no different from our very own criminal justice system in which reasonable doubt always favors the defendant, or at least it should. The system isn't perfect, but, it does work most of the time.
You asked and I answered, so I don't see how that is "off-topic".
So you don't see how your judging criminals who might be christians as not being "true" christians are like the man who was judging the tax collector as being apart from him? That's fine.
And I thought believing was a huge deal for you guys. That's what your TV commercials and pamphlets all say. So your ads are all lies?
Did you watch the video I suggested? I think you'd get a kick out of it. I watched yours, all three parts.
It's completely different. I'm not judging anyone, I am merely expressing my belief that Christians are not responsible for the high crime rate in NO and Houston based on the spiritual truth that that type of behaviour is against the teachings of Jesus. It is not behaviour which is characteristic of Christians who have surrendered to God's will for their lives and are walking in step with God period
All Christians are not moral even by human standards, and not all who profess Christ will receive him. Christ himself states that many who emphatically profess his name will be denied. Many will avoid the wrath to come, but some who profess his name will not. This is a complex topic, but the thief on the cross next to Jesus received eternal life yet Judas one of the apostles was denied it. I think it all comes down to genuine repentance and trusting not in yourself but Christ.
What about this Bible passage: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
First notice about John 3:16, there is particularity. Whosoever believeth. You must then define what belief means and what it entails. Jesus also says that only those who do the will of the father will escape the wrath to come. So clearly believing is not so simple. To be able to fulfill the commands that Jesus gives, you need a literal miracle to happen to you. That's what faith is. You believe and in turn you are changed. If you are not changed then you did not truly believe.
He was rude??? You're the Bul lin the china shop destroying everything around you .. you waltz into other peoples beelifs and space, and start spewing your idiotic irrationa belifs on other people and expect us to do anythign other than laugh in your pathetic face. You are a walking personification of RUDE. NOw take your cross and fuck off
"Its because through my Christian experience do I not gain fulfillment out of doing evil things, it only makes me feel like my soul is burning with emptiness and shame"
Fantastic. We've all been saved from your dangerous immorality by the grace of God.
Now for the bonus round: how come you don't hear about atheists going into a city and committing crime after crime to slake their hedonistic desires? What prevents a farm boy from nw China from going to a city and stealing and raping at will?
The difference between Leprechauns and God is that we have much evidence pointing towards the supernatural such as the fine-tuning of the universe, the teleological argument, the Kalam cosmological argument etc. I really don't think your interested in argumentation though, or truth. This is made apparent by your despicable attitude and your willingness to relate God to Leprechauns. Look, I'm done, I only needed one more insult to push me over the edge. Bye.
I don't even want to get into any further dialogue with you. You don't even want a good respectful dialogue so. Same goes for the other guy because you compare God with unicorns and leprechauns which is intellectually folly and you know it.
why do you say it's intellectual folly? We are telling you with all honesty that if you beelived in god or unicorns you are equally stupid we dont honest to god see a difference.
Atheism is just as zealous as a belief in God, atheism promotes atheism to compare with other sects of belief. Atheism does not hold merit when held to the evidence in the eyes of most people.
I have not been brainwashed into believing in God, I apply the same skepticism as most do towards belief. Your pride is uncanny to claim such a thing out of naivety.
We evolved the susceptibility to believe in the supernatural, so the belief in God isn't a silly concept, but it doesn't mean there is a shred of evidence for God either.
And people fly into buildings for their God, so yes, it concerns many atheists what believers believe.
How more common could this objection get? Look, relating the God of the universe is NOTHING of a comparison to pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monsters, AND YOU KNOW IT. Cut it out please. You can hold absurd views, that's your prerogative, but if you aren't willing to get serious and engage in sophisticated discussion then I won't say anything further. Its quite remarkable how some atheists spend their entire day watching videos about a God who doesn't exist.
God is brainwashed in most of us early. People believe in God's of various types of characteristics, yet there is no one who can produce one shred of evidence that God exists.
The same evidence exists for Leprechauns, but people don't shove their belief of Leprechauns down my throat, so I don't bother with them.
"Trying to have a sophisticated dicsussion with someone who believes in a magical sky daddy and expects the rest of the world to do the same wihtout a SHRED of evidence, nothing, zero, zilch, nada, NONE, is like trying to teach a dog to speak. A complete waste of time. A "sophisticated discussion" requires reasoning, but how is that possible when discussing a subject which one MUST suspend his reason to believe in?"
You've been reading too much propaganda from atheist popularizers. Proving God's existence comes first. You have to notice the obvious design of the earth/cosmos before you can search for what God is. There are many good reasons to believe in God, my question is, are you even open to it? I strongly doubt it. As for Zeus Horus etc, you do realize that those conceptions of God are illogical and do not adequately fit what God must be?
"atheists do not escape the burden of proof because most atheists strongly assert and deny that there is no God" Woops, typing error. Anyways you know what I meant.
Insults don't come from nowhere bro. Telling me that I'm wasting oxygen, lol, if that's not hatred I don't know what is. Your conception of how the burden of proof works is flawed, atheists do not escape the burden of proof because most atheists strongly assert and deny that there is no God. Anyways, this is just wasting my time, later. Have fun spending all your time watching videos about a God who doesn't exist! :)
" Telling me that I'm wasting oxygen, lol, if that's not hatred I don't know what is"
One need not to look further than the "holy" scriptures of the Abrahamic religions to see what true hatred is. You certainly don't find your favorite scriptures hateful, but others do.
You ask what hatred??? Look at your post, you can't control yourself, you are sending terrible insults my way. "I don't spend anytime disproving God", well then why should I believe what you have to say? Support your claim that there is no God, and then I will do exactly the same once I know your ready to have a sophisticated discussion WITHOUT INSULTS.
I don't hate you. I'm annoyed by you and I feel very sorry for you. Again, I'm not claiming there is no God. For the third time, I'm claiming THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD.
I don't have to support that claim, just as I wouldn't expect you to support a claim that there is no evidence for Leprechauns. If I say there is Leprechauns (I don't), it would be up to me to provide evidence.
"to have a sophisticated discussion WITHOUT INSULTS."
Trying to have a sophisticated dicsussion with someone who believes in a magical sky daddy and expects the rest of the world to do the same wihtout a SHRED of evidence, nothing, zero, zilch, nada, NONE, is like trying to teach a dog to speak. A complete waste of time. A "sophisticated discussion" requires reasoning, but how is that possible when discussing a subject which one MUST suspend his reason to believe in?
The hatred is just flowing from that first sentence. Most atheists aren't consistent with their worldview, because we are made in God's image thus we have a moral conscience. Consistent atheists are likely to be on the most wanted list. You sure are spending alot of time trying to disprove a God who doesn't exist... maybe the concept isn't so silly afterall? Support your assertion that there is no God and I will refute your arguments as you post them, but don't just make blanket assertions.
No. If there is no God there is no ultimate justice so you can do what you want and get away with it. My point still stands. Regardless of how you feel about murder, under atheism its all subjective personal taste. I'm not being arrogant, you are mistaken in saying that I am. Tell me, what is the evidence for leprechauns?
You are dense and wasting oxygen every time you breathe.
What is stopping 40 million atheists in North America from ending up in jail or the most wanted list? Take your time with the answer. IT isn't ultimate judgment. Because we don't buy that crap.
There is the same evidence for Leprechauns as there is for God..........NONE.
There are VERY good arguments for God and it is rational to believe so. If you deny that then you are calling some of the greatest minds in history crazy. Look, you can be inconsistent all you want concerning atheist morality, but the fact is is that if there is no God there is absolutely no morality. Please don't tell me to open my eyes when you haven't examined my side with open eyes.
There is NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD. Sure there are "arguments" There are also arguments for Leprechauns.
Have you ever seen apes in the wild. They have "morality" though it isn't exactly like humans.
You are a complete fool if you think we need God to have morality.
There are over 40 million atheists who live in North America. What is stopping us from murder, rape, etc. Our innate feelings of guilt and empathy. That is what stops us.
"There are VERY good arguments for God and it is rational to believe so."
Can I have Zeus, Wotan, the FSM or Horus as that God, or are you gonna request a special pleading for the god of the Bible? No? I can't? Why not? Just because you said so? And why should I care, if I find the evidence for your favorite god as good as the evidence for other thousands of gods? We are all atheists, some of us just go one god further:
I am quite disturbed by your utter arrogance concerning the user DarknessEats. You are so sure that God doesn't exist to the point where you think you can discredit the claims of others? That's absolutely incorrect and very rude. I'm also quite disturbed that you connect leprechauns to the existence of God. The evidence for a creator is overwhelming, open your eyes and look at creation.
Most Christians know what its like to be without God, its atheists who don't understand what it is to know God. If I absolutely knew there was no God, I would do whatever I feel like doing, things that consistent atheists do y'know? Things like robbing banks, having a filthy mouth, having endless sex and taking whatever means to satisfy my own selfishness. I operate by logic, and it is logically inescapable that if there is no God all is permitted and morality is pure convention and is illusory.
ah...you didn't have to get so offensive and graphic with your examples....and...what is the point of the question?....I would have to say I would be a completely different person...I don't think I'd even be alive today
hmmm...yes...it is very sad that I was freed from all drug addictions (including smoking two packs a day) over night...that's pretty sad...most people get to suffer for months on end and go to rehab...and sometimes never get free
actually the ironic thing is that you're calling me sad and you're the one without God
no malice here...i'm not glad you don't know Him...it honestly breaks my heart
have you ever had a physical addiction to a drug?...to quit cold turkey...after smoking one to two packs a day for four years....there are withdrawal symptoms
and I had none...it was completely unexpected...I didn't know it would work that way....I just woke up and I was free...no effort expended on my part
...and that's just the cigarettes
how are you so sure there's no God? I can understand being skeptical....but to claim to know for sure...what proof have you got?
I can't disprove God just like I can't disprove Leprechauns. But I can tell you one thing, God wasn't involved in your recovery...except that your faith in God may have helped you by itself.
Simply, if you were an amputee, you could pray all you want, and have the whole world pray for you...you will never grow back a limb....and faith in God won't help in that case.
Honestly, I have had doubts about my Christian faith, but after reading, researching and understanding, I honestly do believe that there is a God. Though it took me a while to understand it.
there are some atheists whom I have a lot of respect for, their reasoning is solid and they come to logical conclusions based on their presuppositions, you however seem to only blow a lot of hot air and insults
intellectual humility allows for the possibility that you may be wrong...you have yet to provide any sort of philosophical or scientific argument for your stance
while I realize that I have not provided one either, it was not I who challenged your beliefs...I believe I was simply...
answering a question that you asked, where you then responded by telling me how sad my answer was....this conversation will not net any fruit....you do not present an argument from which I may learn....neither do you prove yourself teachable
Read between the lines. Do you really think that God can cure an amputee and make a limb grow back? If the answer is yes, then why are there no documented cases.
You don't give yourself enough credit. You quit smoking and drugs on your own. Congrats.
how stupid are u man. its like im talkin to a kid. read "THE EVOLUTION DECEIT- The Scientific Collapse of Theory of Evolution and The Ideological Background of the Theory" READ READ READ THEN TALK. UR THE ONE IN DENIAL. Y WONT U READ IT? R U AFRAID OF THE TRUTH? LIKE I SAID, A RADICAL/FUNDEMENTALIST EGOTISTICAL 'THEORY' BELIEVING INDIVIDUAL YOU ARE.
i dont think im gonna reply to ur sillyness anymore man. ur eating my brain with ur stupidity and arrogance.
I thought you were leaving already, reality denier.
It is people like you who make people like me laugh. Your willful ignorance is mind numbing.
I'm not going to read an idiotic book. I'll tell you what, show me one piece of evidence found that conflicts with evolution. Just one. If evolution were false, there would be tons of evidence against it.
I suggest you try refuting Potholer54's great videos. Try refuting just one thing. LMAOAY
"If you're looking for a book that will bring new material and insights to the evolution vs. creation debate debate then this isn't it. Harun's book reworks the same old arguments for creation (the complexity of the eye, the gaps in the fossil record etc.) that anyone with a basic layman's interest in evolutionary theory can shoot down without breaking a sweat...
and if u want evidence of god, u'd find it too, and u'r clever enough to know that.
and u havnt said anything related to my original comment... how come? i wanna no what u think about that too. u just started to bash me like without takin my thoughts into account.
later. and dont make silly remarks like 'livin in denial'.
i guess that says something about you. you act like a 'radical' atheist dude. anyhow, it seems u hav a firm conviction in ur beliefs and anything i say to u is just pointless and you can say he same about me. so it was nice talkin to u. peace
Wrong. When you deny facts, you only deserve ridicule. There is absolutely no evidence to contradict evolution. When you have to deny the overwhelming evidence that supports evolution it means you are willfully ignorant and yes, living in denial.
evolution is a fact?? read "THE EVOLUTION DECEIT- The Scientific Collapse of Theory of Evolution and The Ideological Background of the Theory" just like i watched your video. what makes u think god is a fabrication homie? just cuz u cant see god dont mean god dont exist. i dont see the air! and science (evol. theory) is based on theories dude. every so often theres one thing that is dscovered that proves preceding facts wrong. dont be surprised to see the 'evolution theory' being changed.
There is no evidence for God or Gods or anything like that. Man invented God.
There is nothing but evidence for evolution. Not one finding or study has ever contradicted evolution theory. Keep living in denial. It is sad that you deny reality. And for what?
we dont use our brain to its full capacity. thats a fact aint it? say we use, for arguments sake, like 10% of our brain. that 10% of our brain is sufficient enough for us as humans to find reasons that support the evolution theory, and at the same time, deny god. dont u think its possible that if we were to use 50% of our brain, we'd find that the evolutions theory is false, and at the same time we'd find evidence of god?
buddy, u can always be winning debates against people, but that DOES NOT mean that you are absolutely right. it simply means that u've won a mere debate - dats it! u gotta be unbiased and listen to the other side as well.
dude if u want evidence that contradicts evolution, u'd find it. u'd be silly if u say that u cant find any evidence.
and if u want evidence of god, u'd find it too, and u'r clever enough to know that.
and u havnt said anything related to my original comment... how come? i wanna no what u think about that too. u just started to bash me like without takin my thoughts into account.
later. and dont make silly remarks like 'livin in denial'.
I'm bored with doofuses like you to be honest. You aren't worthy of debate from me, only ridicule. Those who have a need to deny evolution are sad sad individuals.
You are one stunned individual. First off, we do use more than 10% of our brains, but regardless, it doesn't change the overwhelming evidence for evolution, and again, there is no evidence for God. You are denying reality.
It isn't an affect. Chimps are atheist or at least agnostic. We are told about a God and we are susceptible to believe in the supernatural through evolution. Our ancestors couldn't explain lightning. To stop from going nuts, they invented supernatural excuses. They were the ones who went on to successfully breed.
That is debatable, our reality is comprised of causes and effects. Science does look for causes. Anyhow, as an atheist do you believe in evolution? And what is your understanding of it?
I am a religious person. Is there a place for atheists in the future? I think there is. God, our Father in heaven, will love you regardless what you believe. To call brother to anyone under the condition that they must believe as I believe is absurd. I will call you my brother baconeater regardless of your beliefs, why? because you and me/everyone have a common Father and if you haven't found any evidence then it is your RIGHT since you have free will to choose not to believe.
John McAmnesty: POW. What was he doing that he got shot down over Vietnam? Bombing villages and killing people he didn't even know. You want him as president?
People don't jump back and forth. Yes, some people turn to God from being agnostic, but usually that person is just caving in to try to give meaning to his or her life. Even though,if you think about it, believing in God doesn't give any more meaning to life. There is no evidence for God, and that is a fact regardless.
Well that just means you are a sick and distorted individual.
If you take into consideration that in a lot of countries in north/western Europe have a population with around 50% atheists then those issues you mention should be abundant here.
We have less teenage pregnancies, less drug use, less murders and overall less crime.
Hence I would just suggest you go to shrink and/or get yourself sorted out.
Maybe fundies can't have morals without a make believe Super daddy...I guess personal values have to be instilled in some people by a super figure, others not.
There is no proof for the existence of God,thats just the way Hes made things to be the only thing that pleases Him is faith.Therefore no logical proof.However,because His creation surrounds us,we have no reasonfor unbelief.Our choice,in a sense,iseither we believe what other unbelievers teach us,whether they be scientistsatheists etc,or we go against the tide,because deep inside we have something telling us that God must exist,and we have an obligation to ourselves,at least to seek Him
allanford22 1 year ago
@allanford22 We have reason because there are many science based answers and none need God to be part of the equation.
Buying into God, or needing God is no more than buying into a fairy tale.
baconeater 1 year ago
@baconeater Over the years there have been a great number of scientists that have sought truth by faith,and found God,because their scientific findings bring them to a dead-end.Does this mean that they have bought into a fairy tale,or that they have become dis-illusioned by science bassed answers.God will not be found by *proof"and I say that because I used to think that I needed proof.Also because the Bible teaches that it is useless to try and find God in that way
allanford22 1 year ago
@allanford22 The bible? LOLOLOL Scientists can believe in God, who says they can't. Are you assuming scientists have to be atheists? Science is not a dead end though.
BTW, God won't be found using anything. You can't find what doesn't exist.
And please when you say many scientists found God, define many? And believing in God doesn't mean believing in the idiotic God of the NT, OT or Koran. Those are complete fairy tales.
baconeater 1 year ago
@baconeater of course scientists can believe in God,I dont assume otherwise,and I didnt say science is a dead end and many is an undefined number meaning a lot rather than a few.But the point is that God can never be proven to exist by science.Science is discovering more about the world we live in but will not discover God,because He is only found by faith.Because faith can not be seen ,does not mean that it is not real any more than saying God is not real because He is not seen.
allanford22 1 year ago
@allanford22 And an invisible pink unicorn can be real because there is no evidence for it either. There is no reason for a God, and more importantly, no evidence for a God.
baconeater 1 year ago
@baconeater I notice that you say "more importantly" no evidence for God,which is exactly why He can never be proven to exist. No evidece=no proof which is what I have been saying.You say "There is no reason for a God, "surely the question is are we here by means of reason?If we exist purely by chance,then there is no reason behind it.But if we believe we are here for a reason,then it is good to search for true answers rather than fight against them
allanford22 1 year ago
@allanford22 There is no reason for a God or Gods. It is pretty simple. There is no reason behind life, it just happened. Live with it or pretend and make up a reason. Your choice. Can you prove that there isn't an invisible man under my bed who does absolutely nothing. What if I say he is the reason I snore?
I have a feeling this will go over your head, but I say it for the lurkers.
baconeater 1 year ago
@baconeater youre right,it went over my head Its a shame you feel youve no reason to be here.I would disagree with that,because I believe we are all unique.But as you say,its my choice.and youve chosen to believe youre an accident rather than here by reason and design
allanford22 1 year ago
@allanford22 Its a shame you need to invent a reason for why we are here.
baconeater 1 year ago
@baconeater No invention,Iknow why Im here
allanford22 1 year ago
@allanford22 I know how and why I am here too. Except, yes you inventing something. I'm not.
BTW, there is no contemporary evidence for Jesus. He was almost certainly an invention that took a century or two to invent fully.
baconeater 1 year ago
Check out the Kalam cosmological argument, the teleological argument, the moral argument, the ontological argument and common sense(Oh you already debunked that way to know God). Atheism literally has no leg to stand on, they rehash the same arguments until blue in the face but to no avail. I tried to provide evidence, but you were too busy talking about Leprechauns and insulting my very existence. Atheists lack morality, its a denial of good and an embracement of poor logic and moral anarchy.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
I thought you were leaving. I already disproved your idiotic moral anarchy argument. You are retarded. Go away.
As for the Kalam argument. Very easy to debunk. False assumptions and all.
There is no evidence for God. No matter how much you want to squeal.
Buh bye, idiot.
baconeater 3 years ago
So what you are saying, Vanmeter, is that you are basically an evil immoral person, and the only thing saving the rest of us from your blind homicidal rage, drunken orgies, and indifference to personal property is your belief in God?
I'm moral and do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not because someone tells me to do it, and certainly not out of fear of anything that may or may not happen in the afterlife.
Life is too short to waste it on empty or poor acts.
hgryphon 2 years ago
Not necessarily, I don't think that if I became convinced of the non-existence of God that I would do those things. Atheism is however a great logical justification for hedonism and maximizing pleasure. Morals only serve to perpetuate and protect the species under atheism. Any meaning attributed to moral sensibilities are totally an illusion in that view. So I wouldn't really be a hedonist just because those acts really wouldn't fulfill me as say helping the poor would.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
"So I wouldn't really be a hedonist just because those acts really wouldn't fulfill me as say helping the poor would."
Okay, so your argument is if there was no religion, then nobody would help the poor and that nobody would do anything if it wasn't for themselves? What about "altruism is it's own reward?" What about the endorphins released in the brain when you commit acts of altruism? Helping others feels good on a chemical level, and that has nothing to do with faith.
hgryphon 2 years ago
Again I'm speaking more from ontology. I don't care if we or any other animals survive if all of it is self-existing. In fact, isn't it easier just to extinguish life in a moment of suffering rather than go on in a godless illogical universe that is pitilessly indifferent?
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
NO assfuck . We live happy lives BECAUSE we know there is no afterlife. We enjoy it while we are here (much more than idiots like you who live for something in the afterlife which is a complete fallacy.
BadMuffler 2 years ago
Its because through my Christian experience do I not gain fulfillment out of doing evil things, it only makes me feel like my soul is burning with emptiness and shame. The human heart is by nature disgusting and filthy, the only thing that can sway it is the holiness through Christ. Look at baconeater for example, the moment you disagree he completely slanders your character totally apart from argumentation and treats you as a madman. Even if he thinks I am mad, he can at least be compassionate.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
If I am indeed a victim of a philosophy solely made to make people behave, why not have pity and compassion? Its because he doesn't feel compassion or pity along with everyone else who spends their time slandering Christian theism and promoting other ideologies. I really treasure those few instances where you get an atheist who actually accepts that their is no right or wrong if there is no God.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
"I really treasure those few instances where you get an atheist who actually accepts that their is no right or wrong if there is no God."
And this explains why you don't get compassion from Bacon here. You're trying to force your concept of what a person should be onto him. It's very rude. I don't come to your house or office and tell you how to be. I don't come to your church and demand you let me preach non-christian values during the homily. And I don't offer pity to people who choose to.
hgryphon 2 years ago
W/e don't make bacon the victim. He was rude through and through. I'm not forcing logic onto anyone, the logic itself stands objective apart from us. There is no shield like ignorance. *Ontologically* speaking, no God = no objective moral values. That is as factual as 2 + 2 = 4. If we as human beings are the arbiters of what is good and what is evil, you will never come to an agreement let alone determine as finite beings what is good and evil. You need an ultimate arbiter who brings justice.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
Ontology. The philosophy that describes what entities can be said to exist. Okay. I wasn't aware that it had extrapolated that the non-existence of God excludes morality in humans. Though I'm glad you brought this up.
Would you say a Buddhist is an immoral person, then? What about extemist Muslims; was 9/11, an act they argue was done FOR God, a moral act?
Let's go deeper. Let's assume it's only God as Christians know him that is valid. Are all Christians moral? None of them go to jail?
hgryphon 2 years ago
I believe Islam is barbaric and it very clearly blurs the line between virtue and sin. It doesn't line up at all with what always has been considered as virtues, things such as compassion, self-sacrifice, love etc. A Buddhist may very well be a pretty good person, but the problem is that you can't erase your badness with virtue. Its a choice, you either trust in your own good works or you trust in the concept of grace. Buddhism really has nothing to say about many things that Christ answers.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
I'm going to disagree. From what I can see, Muslims are VERY passionate, and they are willing to make the penultimate sacrifice. I can't speak on love, not knowing any loving Muslims personally.
As for erasing your badness with virtue, I'm going to disagree with you on that matter. I will agree that it is better to be a good person from the get go, but I also think a person who was once bad can start to do good things and build a new life on the foundation of these good deeds.
hgryphon 2 years ago
Well you may gain human favor by changing your ways, turning from bad ways. Law doesn't work like that, even in human government. You murder, you will forever be a murderer and if the authorities find you then you have to pay for it. God is the same way according to the Christian scriptures except he will judge your heart as well. So if you hate then you will be subject to judgment. Its basically human government with omniscience added in and all moral corruption taken out.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
Right, except after you get out of prison, your debt to society is paid and you go about your life.
Have you or anyone you know or anyone you know of ever seen God judge someone?
hgryphon 2 years ago
I've never seen anyone being judged. You don't need to see something in order to have reason to believe that thing. Evolutionary theory for example. You've never seen it happen on the grand scale proposed by the phylogenetic tree, but you believe it because of DNA and supporting fossil evidence and whatever other reasons whether personal or scientific.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
Okay, we'll play the word game. Do you have supporting evidence that God judges people? And being told by a person or in a book doesn't count anymore than if I tell you in person or in writing that I currently live on the surface of the sun.
hgryphon 2 years ago
This book not only talks about judgment, it diagnoses human nature to a T. I have quite the conviction that people can't do whatever they please in this life. The reasons why I believe the Bible are innumerable.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
Okay, I'll let you not answer my previous question and ask a new one. Who decided humans were sick and required a diagnoses?
I also have the conviction that people can't do whatever they please. A society where everyone does as they please is inherently flawed. It cannot sustain for more than a few generations before imploding. It can be observed in nature.
Wait, let me reverse my approach here...
hgryphon 2 years ago
Let's look at the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
The people, the victims, they were demographically Christian by a sweeping majority, but in the aftermath of the hurricane, fell to looting, robbery, assault and things of that nature.
Had police and National Guard not gone in to impose martial law over these folks, had it been allowed to continue this way, how long do you think that slice of society would have lasted?
hgryphon 2 years ago
I doubt very seriously, that those who were looting and committing assaults and robberies in New Orleans were largely Christian. What gives you that notion?
Is it because New Orleans is in the south?
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Okay. Go ahead and doubt.
New Orleans is one of the most religious cities in the United States, so perhaps you would prefer me to say, "It is highly likely, given the religiousness of New Orleans, that the looters were religious people."?
Or is it your opinion that only non-religious people would loot? (Say yes say yes, oh wow do I have proof to the contrary!)
hgryphon 2 years ago
LOL!! That is the most nonsensical statement I believe I have ever heard made on the internet in all the years I've been on it..
Are you not aware of how the crime rate in Houston spiked after busloads of former New Orleans residents who were displaced by Katrina were relocated there? More than likely, these were the same culprits who were responsible for the high crime rate in New Orleans prior to Katrina.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
I guarantee you, these were NOT busloads of born-again Christians who were sent to Houston. They were criminal element types. To suggest that Christians were responsible for the high crime rate in New Orleans, is completely insane.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Yes, it is mostly non-Christians who would loot for no other reason than to loot.
As for looting to forage for food in a city where everything is shut down as in the aftermath of Katrina, I would do that to feed my family.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
More conjecture.
And thank you for admitting that you, as a christian, would loot. It saves me the trouble of having to post statistics with YouTube making it unnecessarily difficult to post comments today for some reason. A first hand confession works just as good, wouldn't you say?
As for what you would or would not do in that situation, you haven't been there, so you can't really say for sure. Can you?
hgryphon 2 years ago
I would not loot for a big screen television set as I saw someone doing on the news.
I said I would loot to find food for my family if we had none and the city was shut down for several days. I don't know of a father alive who wouldn't do the same thing if it came down to a matter of survival. I'm not admitting that as a Christian, I'm admitting that as a father of five.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Yes I can. I can honestly say, if my family was faced with not having food for several days, I would do everything within my power to make sure they did have food.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
You guarantee me? Did you do a survey? Did you poll every one of them? Or is this statement merely conjecture with no factual basis? Also, Christians commit crimes, too.
hgryphon 2 years ago
No, but the type of people that were responsible for those crimes, were criminal elements period.
I'm well aware that Christians commit crimes, but nowhere in the same number as those who are not Christian.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
You can't have been on long or looked very far if that is the case, and let me be the first to welcome you to the Internet.
So the crime rate spiked. And? Christians commit crimes, too, you know. That's why there's so many of them in jail.
hgryphon 2 years ago
LOL!! I've been on the internet since 1996.
My point, is that those who were responsible for the spiking crime rate in Houston, were more than likely also responsible for the high crime rate in New Orleans prior to Katrina.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Okay. Even though it's still based on speculation, I will grant you that IF the people Houston hosted from New Orleans were the criminals responsible for a high crime rate in New Orleans, they may very well have contributed to an increase in crime in New Orleans. And?
hgryphon 2 years ago
And these people were and many probably still are, homeless. These were not church members running around Houston killing and robbing people. These were people who had no resources and were unable to get out of the city before Katrina hit. That, is why they were dependent upon New Orleans authorities shipping them to another city where they also had no resources.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
I'm still at a loss to where the block is in your way of thinking that they couldn't be christian. You don't think homeless people can be christians? Likewise, you seem to have this impression that being part of a church prevents you from robbing people. These are not mutually exclusive states of being, you know.
hgryphon 2 years ago
Because true Christians, those who follow and adhere to the teachings of Christ and raise their children to follow and adhere to the teachings of Christ(as my wife and I do), by and large are not criminals. People like that adhere to the teachings in the scriptures and the scriptures forbid believers from doing anything like that.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
This is how Jesus admonishes His followers to behave and conduct themselves.
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
True believers who conduct themselves in the way Christ taught us to conduct ourselves, are for the most part, not criminals, with the exception of the occasional speeding ticket. However, I will admit that Christians are capable of serious crimes but in most cases, they are in the minority.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Ah, there it is, the elitist attitude. What can I possibly say to that?
How about suggesting you read Luke 18:9-14 and learn that believing in "true christians" makes you less of a christian than more of one.
hgryphon 2 years ago
What was "elitist" about that?
My point, is that when a believer is walking in step with Jesus, as we are to do continually, the authorities do not have to worry about us running around breaking the law. There is nothing "elitist" about that.
There is a video here on Youtube of my pastor speaking on that very subject. If you would like to see for yourself what I'm referring to, search for Charles Stanley - Walking in Step with God.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Didn't want to read the passage, eh? Jesus's parable explains exactly my point. Then again, I understand most christians refuse to read the bible.
What's elitist? You're separating christians into groups. The "true" group, and "everyone else."
And you feel we should walk in step with a god that condones rape, torture, slavery, and child abuse? How is that not going to lead us to a life of crime? Watch "The Bible: Evidence That God Is Evil?" and try to excuse God's evil ways.
hgryphon 2 years ago
Actually, I did read the passage and I'm very familiar with that passage but sadly, that passage proves nothing. How interesting that you jumped to that conclusion that I didn't read it. Btw, I read the Bible daily, as a true regenerated Christian should.
That passage makes no point whatsoever in regard to your argument.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
The truth of the matter, is that there are two types of people as far as God is concerned, believers and unbelievers.
People who are truly Christians or believers, meaning they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, are the smaller of the two groups. Furthermore, just because someone claims to be a Christian or believer, that doesn't mean they actually are.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
There are many people who claim to be Christian based solely on the fact that they believe in God and attend or are members of a church. Sadly for them, they are no more Christian than Osama bin Laden is.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
They have not received the regeneration of the Holy Spirit thusly they do not benefit from the abiding influence of the Holy Spirit. They have no relationship with God whatsoever even though they erroneously believe they do. They have what is known as demonic faith(James 2:19), not saving faith. Demonic faith, saves no one, hence the name. One must have saving faith to be saved.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
This goes back to my point I was making yesterday, if someone is truly a regenerated follower of Christ(saving faith) and he/she is walking in step with God, they wont be going around committing crimes. This is why I made the comment I did in regard to the people most likely not being Christians(saving faith) who were responsible for the high crime rates in both New Orleans and Houston. The people may have been religious, but I doubt very seriously they were Christians.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
As Jesus states, many will cry out "Lord Lord" who don't truly know Him. They claim to be Christian and they do Christian works, but that alone doesn't constitute a personal saving relationship with Jesus Christ. (Matt 7:22)
Whitese7en 2 years ago
The only thing "The Bible: Evidence That God Is Evil?" proves, is that the person responsible for "The Bible: Evidence That God Is Evil?" is evil and has no clue whatsoever what they're talking about.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
So you're completely okay with a person who tortures, kills, abuses children, and condones slavery, to the point where if someone else points out that he has done those things, that person is evil and not the one committing these acts? And you feel that a person of this nature is a good example of a role model and will prevent his followers from committing these crimes and more? Belief must truly be a wondrous and powerful force.
hgryphon 2 years ago
Of course I'm not ok with a person who tortures, kills, abuses children and condones slavery.
However, in regard to the slavery of the Bible, it was not necessarily an evil thing and, it served a purpose in the society of the times. The slavery of the Bible, was far different from the slavery that was practiced in the early beginnings of our nation. Slavery in the Bible, was not based exclusively on race, so people were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
In the Bible, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters. In the Bible, slavery was many times a means to put food on the table for the families of slaves.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
The reason there were numerous biblical laws written to govern its practice, was because it was so much a part of their society that it needed to be regulated. Yes, the Bible governed its practice, but again, it wasn't necessarily an evil practice at the time.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Which it was fine to beat a slave to near death as long as they could get up to work the next day.
hgryphon 2 years ago
That is not what the verse says.
The verse doesn't say that the slave survives.
It states, if he survives a day or two. The point being, that if he doesn't die right away, then the general belief, is that there was no intent to kill the slave so the master can not be tried for murder, which in accordance with the law, implies an intent to kill.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
It was generally thought that if the slave lingered on for a day or two, the possibility existed that he may have died due to other causes. The benefit of the doubt, was afforded to the accused, which is no different from our very own modern day legal system.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
So biblical law states you can beat the snot out of someone, but as long as you didn't intend to kill the person, it's A O K? And if you beat someone to near death, but they don't die right away, you didn't kill them? Swell legal system.
By now we're way off topic, and rather than cover every single issue we could possibly bring up, I think I'll just leave it as is for now.
hgryphon 2 years ago
In the Bible, slavery was a necessary component of the socioeconomic system of the Jews, so laws were given to govern its practice. If the slave did not die right away, yes, it was generally believed that there may not have been an intent to cause death. Since the slave didn't die right away, it gave rise to reasonable doubt that there was an intent to kill.
Whitese7en 2 years ago
As I said, in that sense, it is no different from our very own criminal justice system in which reasonable doubt always favors the defendant, or at least it should. The system isn't perfect, but, it does work most of the time.
You asked and I answered, so I don't see how that is "off-topic".
Whitese7en 2 years ago
When 500 characters just isn't enough...
So you don't see how your judging criminals who might be christians as not being "true" christians are like the man who was judging the tax collector as being apart from him? That's fine.
And I thought believing was a huge deal for you guys. That's what your TV commercials and pamphlets all say. So your ads are all lies?
Did you watch the video I suggested? I think you'd get a kick out of it. I watched yours, all three parts.
hgryphon 2 years ago
No it wasn't enough ...obviously.
It's completely different. I'm not judging anyone, I am merely expressing my belief that Christians are not responsible for the high crime rate in NO and Houston based on the spiritual truth that that type of behaviour is against the teachings of Jesus. It is not behaviour which is characteristic of Christians who have surrendered to God's will for their lives and are walking in step with God period
Whitese7en 2 years ago
Why can't I respond?
hgryphon 2 years ago
Oh, i see. I just can't respond to Whitese7en. How droll.
hgryphon 2 years ago
All Christians are not moral even by human standards, and not all who profess Christ will receive him. Christ himself states that many who emphatically profess his name will be denied. Many will avoid the wrath to come, but some who profess his name will not. This is a complex topic, but the thief on the cross next to Jesus received eternal life yet Judas one of the apostles was denied it. I think it all comes down to genuine repentance and trusting not in yourself but Christ.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
What about this Bible passage: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
hgryphon 2 years ago
First notice about John 3:16, there is particularity. Whosoever believeth. You must then define what belief means and what it entails. Jesus also says that only those who do the will of the father will escape the wrath to come. So clearly believing is not so simple. To be able to fulfill the commands that Jesus gives, you need a literal miracle to happen to you. That's what faith is. You believe and in turn you are changed. If you are not changed then you did not truly believe.
Vanmeter815 2 years ago
He was rude??? You're the Bul lin the china shop destroying everything around you .. you waltz into other peoples beelifs and space, and start spewing your idiotic irrationa belifs on other people and expect us to do anythign other than laugh in your pathetic face. You are a walking personification of RUDE. NOw take your cross and fuck off
BadMuffler 2 years ago
"Its because through my Christian experience do I not gain fulfillment out of doing evil things, it only makes me feel like my soul is burning with emptiness and shame"
Fantastic. We've all been saved from your dangerous immorality by the grace of God.
Now for the bonus round: how come you don't hear about atheists going into a city and committing crime after crime to slake their hedonistic desires? What prevents a farm boy from nw China from going to a city and stealing and raping at will?
hgryphon 2 years ago
"Are you mentally ill?"
No.
The difference between Leprechauns and God is that we have much evidence pointing towards the supernatural such as the fine-tuning of the universe, the teleological argument, the Kalam cosmological argument etc. I really don't think your interested in argumentation though, or truth. This is made apparent by your despicable attitude and your willingness to relate God to Leprechauns. Look, I'm done, I only needed one more insult to push me over the edge. Bye.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
Bye. I don't know what you came here for except put words in the mouth of atheists, and prove once more, that there is no evidence for God.
Congrats, you did both.
baconeater 3 years ago
I don't even want to get into any further dialogue with you. You don't even want a good respectful dialogue so. Same goes for the other guy because you compare God with unicorns and leprechauns which is intellectually folly and you know it.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
Where is your evidence for God. Obviously you know there is none for Leprechauns. What is the difference?
baconeater 3 years ago
why do you say it's intellectual folly? We are telling you with all honesty that if you beelived in god or unicorns you are equally stupid we dont honest to god see a difference.
BadMuffler 2 years ago
Atheism is just as zealous as a belief in God, atheism promotes atheism to compare with other sects of belief. Atheism does not hold merit when held to the evidence in the eyes of most people.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
What evidence?
baconeater 3 years ago
I have not been brainwashed into believing in God, I apply the same skepticism as most do towards belief. Your pride is uncanny to claim such a thing out of naivety.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
Are you mentally ill? Do you not know what "reply" means. Why do you start new threads all the time?
If you were born to Muslim parents you would be praying to Allah. You are brainwashed.
baconeater 3 years ago
yes... I assure you yes you have.
BadMuffler 2 years ago
This shows that you do not think the concept as silly as you make it out to be, you are just blowing hot air.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
We evolved the susceptibility to believe in the supernatural, so the belief in God isn't a silly concept, but it doesn't mean there is a shred of evidence for God either.
And people fly into buildings for their God, so yes, it concerns many atheists what believers believe.
baconeater 3 years ago
How more common could this objection get? Look, relating the God of the universe is NOTHING of a comparison to pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monsters, AND YOU KNOW IT. Cut it out please. You can hold absurd views, that's your prerogative, but if you aren't willing to get serious and engage in sophisticated discussion then I won't say anything further. Its quite remarkable how some atheists spend their entire day watching videos about a God who doesn't exist.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
God is brainwashed in most of us early. People believe in God's of various types of characteristics, yet there is no one who can produce one shred of evidence that God exists.
The same evidence exists for Leprechauns, but people don't shove their belief of Leprechauns down my throat, so I don't bother with them.
baconeater 3 years ago
Oh so naturalistic evolution is adequate to explain what we see? Yeah, maybe if your a fool.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
"Oh so naturalistic evolution is adequate to explain what we see?"
No, you are confusing it with your magic pixie...whoops, I mean, the FSM...or was it the Easter Bunny? Damn, I forgot...
Akatam0t0ma 3 years ago
"Trying to have a sophisticated dicsussion with someone who believes in a magical sky daddy and expects the rest of the world to do the same wihtout a SHRED of evidence, nothing, zero, zilch, nada, NONE, is like trying to teach a dog to speak. A complete waste of time. A "sophisticated discussion" requires reasoning, but how is that possible when discussing a subject which one MUST suspend his reason to believe in?"
As I suspected. Later.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
You've been reading too much propaganda from atheist popularizers. Proving God's existence comes first. You have to notice the obvious design of the earth/cosmos before you can search for what God is. There are many good reasons to believe in God, my question is, are you even open to it? I strongly doubt it. As for Zeus Horus etc, you do realize that those conceptions of God are illogical and do not adequately fit what God must be?
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
Obvious design? To who? There is a scientific explanation for what you call design.
baconeater 3 years ago
"atheists do not escape the burden of proof because most atheists strongly assert and deny that there is no God" Woops, typing error. Anyways you know what I meant.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
An atheist is someone who answers the question do you believe in God with a NO. Simple.
The same answer would happen if most people were do you believe in Leprechauns.
Almost every atheist I know does not state there is no God, only that the probability for God is as close to zero as it is for Leprechauns.
What don't you get?
baconeater 3 years ago
Insults don't come from nowhere bro. Telling me that I'm wasting oxygen, lol, if that's not hatred I don't know what is. Your conception of how the burden of proof works is flawed, atheists do not escape the burden of proof because most atheists strongly assert and deny that there is no God. Anyways, this is just wasting my time, later. Have fun spending all your time watching videos about a God who doesn't exist! :)
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
I'm an atheist and I'm not saying there is no God. You are really truly stuck on stupid.
I'm saying there is no evidence that God exists.
You are obviously out of your league with that statement.
baconeater 3 years ago
" Telling me that I'm wasting oxygen, lol, if that's not hatred I don't know what is"
One need not to look further than the "holy" scriptures of the Abrahamic religions to see what true hatred is. You certainly don't find your favorite scriptures hateful, but others do.
Akatam0t0ma 3 years ago
You ask what hatred??? Look at your post, you can't control yourself, you are sending terrible insults my way. "I don't spend anytime disproving God", well then why should I believe what you have to say? Support your claim that there is no God, and then I will do exactly the same once I know your ready to have a sophisticated discussion WITHOUT INSULTS.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
I don't hate you. I'm annoyed by you and I feel very sorry for you. Again, I'm not claiming there is no God. For the third time, I'm claiming THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD.
I don't have to support that claim, just as I wouldn't expect you to support a claim that there is no evidence for Leprechauns. If I say there is Leprechauns (I don't), it would be up to me to provide evidence.
baconeater 3 years ago
"to have a sophisticated discussion WITHOUT INSULTS."
Trying to have a sophisticated dicsussion with someone who believes in a magical sky daddy and expects the rest of the world to do the same wihtout a SHRED of evidence, nothing, zero, zilch, nada, NONE, is like trying to teach a dog to speak. A complete waste of time. A "sophisticated discussion" requires reasoning, but how is that possible when discussing a subject which one MUST suspend his reason to believe in?
Akatam0t0ma 3 years ago
Is hatred not immoral to you? If so, then murder isn't immoral to you. Murder is a result of your inner hatred of someone else.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
Hatred is an emotion. You aren't worth hating.
Murder is an action, and taking an action on an innocent person causes guilt and empathy stops me from doing it. Not God. My prewired condition.
The same thing that stops bonobos apes from killing each other.
baconeater 3 years ago
The hatred is just flowing from that first sentence. Most atheists aren't consistent with their worldview, because we are made in God's image thus we have a moral conscience. Consistent atheists are likely to be on the most wanted list. You sure are spending alot of time trying to disprove a God who doesn't exist... maybe the concept isn't so silly afterall? Support your assertion that there is no God and I will refute your arguments as you post them, but don't just make blanket assertions.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
What hatred? I'm just annoyed with idiots like you. It is like I'm dealing with a mentally inferior person, and I'm treating you as such.
I don't spend anytime disproving God. You can't. You can't disprove Leprechauns either.
I'm not saying there is no God. I'm saying there is no evidence for God or Leprechauns.
And you are stuck on stupid regarding atheist morality. You are pathetic. Completely pathetic.
We evolved a moral conscience. No God is needed.
baconeater 3 years ago
No. If there is no God there is no ultimate justice so you can do what you want and get away with it. My point still stands. Regardless of how you feel about murder, under atheism its all subjective personal taste. I'm not being arrogant, you are mistaken in saying that I am. Tell me, what is the evidence for leprechauns?
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
You are dense and wasting oxygen every time you breathe.
What is stopping 40 million atheists in North America from ending up in jail or the most wanted list? Take your time with the answer. IT isn't ultimate judgment. Because we don't buy that crap.
There is the same evidence for Leprechauns as there is for God..........NONE.
baconeater 3 years ago
There are VERY good arguments for God and it is rational to believe so. If you deny that then you are calling some of the greatest minds in history crazy. Look, you can be inconsistent all you want concerning atheist morality, but the fact is is that if there is no God there is absolutely no morality. Please don't tell me to open my eyes when you haven't examined my side with open eyes.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
There is NO EVIDENCE FOR GOD. Sure there are "arguments" There are also arguments for Leprechauns.
Have you ever seen apes in the wild. They have "morality" though it isn't exactly like humans.
You are a complete fool if you think we need God to have morality.
There are over 40 million atheists who live in North America. What is stopping us from murder, rape, etc. Our innate feelings of guilt and empathy. That is what stops us.
Talk about arrogance.
baconeater 3 years ago
"There are VERY good arguments for God and it is rational to believe so."
Can I have Zeus, Wotan, the FSM or Horus as that God, or are you gonna request a special pleading for the god of the Bible? No? I can't? Why not? Just because you said so? And why should I care, if I find the evidence for your favorite god as good as the evidence for other thousands of gods? We are all atheists, some of us just go one god further:
watch?v=OA6wJchsd9E
Akatam0t0ma 3 years ago 2
I am quite disturbed by your utter arrogance concerning the user DarknessEats. You are so sure that God doesn't exist to the point where you think you can discredit the claims of others? That's absolutely incorrect and very rude. I'm also quite disturbed that you connect leprechauns to the existence of God. The evidence for a creator is overwhelming, open your eyes and look at creation.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
Open your eyes. The evidence for God and Leprechauns is equal.
baconeater 3 years ago
Most Christians know what its like to be without God, its atheists who don't understand what it is to know God. If I absolutely knew there was no God, I would do whatever I feel like doing, things that consistent atheists do y'know? Things like robbing banks, having a filthy mouth, having endless sex and taking whatever means to satisfy my own selfishness. I operate by logic, and it is logically inescapable that if there is no God all is permitted and morality is pure convention and is illusory.
Vanmeter815 3 years ago
Most atheists used to believe in God. It was hardwired in us thanks to our ancestors, to be susceptible to believe in superstition.
We also evolved empathy and guilt which stops most of us from raping, murdering and stealing.
No God is needed. It is part of the way we innately survive to the next generation.
baconeater 3 years ago
ah...you didn't have to get so offensive and graphic with your examples....and...what is the point of the question?....I would have to say I would be a completely different person...I don't think I'd even be alive today
DarknessEats 3 years ago
That is very sad that you think you need an imaginary crutch or you might be dead today. Just my opinion.
baconeater 3 years ago
hmmm...yes...it is very sad that I was freed from all drug addictions (including smoking two packs a day) over night...that's pretty sad...most people get to suffer for months on end and go to rehab...and sometimes never get free
actually the ironic thing is that you're calling me sad and you're the one without God
no malice here...i'm not glad you don't know Him...it honestly breaks my heart
DarknessEats 3 years ago
You only think you needed an imaginary friend to get over your addictions. You did it yourself. You should be proud of yourself.
God had nothing to do with it.
I don't smoke, I don't have a drug addiction, and I rarely drink. Without God's help.
baconeater 3 years ago
have you ever had a physical addiction to a drug?...to quit cold turkey...after smoking one to two packs a day for four years....there are withdrawal symptoms
and I had none...it was completely unexpected...I didn't know it would work that way....I just woke up and I was free...no effort expended on my part
...and that's just the cigarettes
how are you so sure there's no God? I can understand being skeptical....but to claim to know for sure...what proof have you got?
DarknessEats 3 years ago
I can't disprove God just like I can't disprove Leprechauns. But I can tell you one thing, God wasn't involved in your recovery...except that your faith in God may have helped you by itself.
Simply, if you were an amputee, you could pray all you want, and have the whole world pray for you...you will never grow back a limb....and faith in God won't help in that case.
baconeater 3 years ago
Honestly, I have had doubts about my Christian faith, but after reading, researching and understanding, I honestly do believe that there is a God. Though it took me a while to understand it.
gneisenau321 3 years ago
you say that God wasn't involved in my recovery...how do you know?...you weren't there (hint: the correct answer is that you cannot know)
DarknessEats 3 years ago
The correct answer is I don't know if invisible Leprechauns helped you either.
baconeater 3 years ago
there are some atheists whom I have a lot of respect for, their reasoning is solid and they come to logical conclusions based on their presuppositions, you however seem to only blow a lot of hot air and insults
intellectual humility allows for the possibility that you may be wrong...you have yet to provide any sort of philosophical or scientific argument for your stance
while I realize that I have not provided one either, it was not I who challenged your beliefs...I believe I was simply...
DarknessEats 3 years ago
answering a question that you asked, where you then responded by telling me how sad my answer was....this conversation will not net any fruit....you do not present an argument from which I may learn....neither do you prove yourself teachable
good bye
DarknessEats 3 years ago
Read between the lines. Do you really think that God can cure an amputee and make a limb grow back? If the answer is yes, then why are there no documented cases.
You don't give yourself enough credit. You quit smoking and drugs on your own. Congrats.
baconeater 3 years ago
how stupid are u man. its like im talkin to a kid. read "THE EVOLUTION DECEIT- The Scientific Collapse of Theory of Evolution and The Ideological Background of the Theory" READ READ READ THEN TALK. UR THE ONE IN DENIAL. Y WONT U READ IT? R U AFRAID OF THE TRUTH? LIKE I SAID, A RADICAL/FUNDEMENTALIST EGOTISTICAL 'THEORY' BELIEVING INDIVIDUAL YOU ARE.
i dont think im gonna reply to ur sillyness anymore man. ur eating my brain with ur stupidity and arrogance.
mojorose 3 years ago
I thought you were leaving already, reality denier.
It is people like you who make people like me laugh. Your willful ignorance is mind numbing.
I'm not going to read an idiotic book. I'll tell you what, show me one piece of evidence found that conflicts with evolution. Just one. If evolution were false, there would be tons of evidence against it.
I suggest you try refuting Potholer54's great videos. Try refuting just one thing. LMAOAY
baconeater 3 years ago
"If you're looking for a book that will bring new material and insights to the evolution vs. creation debate debate then this isn't it. Harun's book reworks the same old arguments for creation (the complexity of the eye, the gaps in the fossil record etc.) that anyone with a basic layman's interest in evolutionary theory can shoot down without breaking a sweat...
baconeater 3 years ago
and if u want evidence of god, u'd find it too, and u'r clever enough to know that.
and u havnt said anything related to my original comment... how come? i wanna no what u think about that too. u just started to bash me like without takin my thoughts into account.
later. and dont make silly remarks like 'livin in denial'.
mojorose 3 years ago
Your rhetoric doesn't deserve a real reply. You are a silly person.
baconeater 3 years ago
i guess that says something about you. you act like a 'radical' atheist dude. anyhow, it seems u hav a firm conviction in ur beliefs and anything i say to u is just pointless and you can say he same about me. so it was nice talkin to u. peace
mojorose 3 years ago
Wrong. When you deny facts, you only deserve ridicule. There is absolutely no evidence to contradict evolution. When you have to deny the overwhelming evidence that supports evolution it means you are willfully ignorant and yes, living in denial.
baconeater 3 years ago
evolution is a fact?? read "THE EVOLUTION DECEIT- The Scientific Collapse of Theory of Evolution and The Ideological Background of the Theory" just like i watched your video. what makes u think god is a fabrication homie? just cuz u cant see god dont mean god dont exist. i dont see the air! and science (evol. theory) is based on theories dude. every so often theres one thing that is dscovered that proves preceding facts wrong. dont be surprised to see the 'evolution theory' being changed.
mojorose 3 years ago
There is no evidence for God or Gods or anything like that. Man invented God.
There is nothing but evidence for evolution. Not one finding or study has ever contradicted evolution theory. Keep living in denial. It is sad that you deny reality. And for what?
baconeater 3 years ago
we dont use our brain to its full capacity. thats a fact aint it? say we use, for arguments sake, like 10% of our brain. that 10% of our brain is sufficient enough for us as humans to find reasons that support the evolution theory, and at the same time, deny god. dont u think its possible that if we were to use 50% of our brain, we'd find that the evolutions theory is false, and at the same time we'd find evidence of god?
mojorose 3 years ago
buddy, u can always be winning debates against people, but that DOES NOT mean that you are absolutely right. it simply means that u've won a mere debate - dats it! u gotta be unbiased and listen to the other side as well.
dude if u want evidence that contradicts evolution, u'd find it. u'd be silly if u say that u cant find any evidence.
mojorose 3 years ago
and if u want evidence of god, u'd find it too, and u'r clever enough to know that.
and u havnt said anything related to my original comment... how come? i wanna no what u think about that too. u just started to bash me like without takin my thoughts into account.
later. and dont make silly remarks like 'livin in denial'.
mojorose 3 years ago
I'm bored with doofuses like you to be honest. You aren't worthy of debate from me, only ridicule. Those who have a need to deny evolution are sad sad individuals.
baconeater 3 years ago
There is not one piece of evidence found that contradicts evolution. None. You are in denial.
baconeater 3 years ago
You are one stunned individual. First off, we do use more than 10% of our brains, but regardless, it doesn't change the overwhelming evidence for evolution, and again, there is no evidence for God. You are denying reality.
baconeater 3 years ago
no we use almost every cell in our brain
Dobv4 3 years ago
Beaconeater I would like to ask you something, if we see atheism as an effect could I ask you what are the causes of it?
Urantian097 3 years ago
It isn't an affect. Chimps are atheist or at least agnostic. We are told about a God and we are susceptible to believe in the supernatural through evolution. Our ancestors couldn't explain lightning. To stop from going nuts, they invented supernatural excuses. They were the ones who went on to successfully breed.
baconeater 3 years ago
That is debatable, our reality is comprised of causes and effects. Science does look for causes. Anyhow, as an atheist do you believe in evolution? And what is your understanding of it?
Urantian097 3 years ago
Evolution is fact. I understand it pretty well.
Watch Potholer54's videos, he understands things very well too.
baconeater 3 years ago
Good Questions.
I am a religious person. Is there a place for atheists in the future? I think there is. God, our Father in heaven, will love you regardless what you believe. To call brother to anyone under the condition that they must believe as I believe is absurd. I will call you my brother baconeater regardless of your beliefs, why? because you and me/everyone have a common Father and if you haven't found any evidence then it is your RIGHT since you have free will to choose not to believe.
Urantian097 3 years ago
That is cool with me.
baconeater 3 years ago
John McAmnesty: POW. What was he doing that he got shot down over Vietnam? Bombing villages and killing people he didn't even know. You want him as president?
JDtheMusicMan 4 years ago
Comment removed
ronaldhalabi7 4 years ago
I doubt very much you were an atheist, maybe agnostic.
It is very difficult to go from atheism back to being a believer in something that has no evidence whatsoever associated with it.
baconeater 4 years ago
Comment removed
ronaldhalabi7 4 years ago
People don't jump back and forth. Yes, some people turn to God from being agnostic, but usually that person is just caving in to try to give meaning to his or her life. Even though,if you think about it, believing in God doesn't give any more meaning to life. There is no evidence for God, and that is a fact regardless.
baconeater 4 years ago
Comment removed
BadMuffler 2 years ago
Well that just means you are a sick and distorted individual.
If you take into consideration that in a lot of countries in north/western Europe have a population with around 50% atheists then those issues you mention should be abundant here.
We have less teenage pregnancies, less drug use, less murders and overall less crime.
Hence I would just suggest you go to shrink and/or get yourself sorted out.
Shevar83 4 years ago
god bless george bush
CountDraculer 4 years ago
Maybe fundies can't have morals without a make believe Super daddy...I guess personal values have to be instilled in some people by a super figure, others not.
blaziermissy 4 years ago
Atheists are silly. =P
theonlyrel 4 years ago
lol idiot
pmcommando 4 years ago
Well so are a lot of people. It is nothing to be ashamed of.
theonlyrel 4 years ago