The old testament teaches to worship with instruments. So you need a specific verse saying you cannot. If there is not a specific verse canceling worship with instruments in the new testament then you are rebelling against Gods instructions on how to worship him. That would make you one of those teachers you tell people to run away from. REPENT!
Christ created one Church. The COC is not it....It is close. Had Stone and Campbell known of the Orthodox Church, we would not have COC. Please look and study the history of the Church before the Roman Catholic take over. All the American folk religions came from the roman catholic church. Please look into the orthodox Church. The ONE AND ONLY CHURCH THAT CHRIST CREATED in AD33. Mat16:18 "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."
y is it that ppl who don't except the bible at its word always argue ovr what the bible does not say. It says what it says, do as it says not as it does not say and you will make heaven rejoice. If I sent u 2 the store I tell u what I want that excludes evrthng else. If I told u what I did not want that would be 2 much, so I say bring me a loaf of bread, u may say what kind I may say Holsum that excludes not includes all others.So 2 make it easy 4 us God tells us what 2 do, excluding all othrs.
@6153calme So if u go 2 the store for me and bring back Sara Lee bread and not Holsum r u going to tell me I did not say Sara Lee? Now do you get it folks, that's Y 1Pet 4:11 says speaks as the oracles of God, i.e Speak were the bible speaks, b silent where the bible is silent call bible things by bible names do bible things the bible way. Besides how can u show n the bible somthing that is not there, nor implied, inferred etc? Norm hits a knockout here, u keep it up bro Norm.
Revelation 14:2 "And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and a voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of HARPISTS playing their Harps."
Obviously this guy never got entirely through the New Testament. Isn't a HARP a MECHANICAL INSTRUMENT?
Rev is mostly figurtiv not litrl if it says like sound many waters, a voice of loud thndr, how many voices do you hear that sound like thndr/many waters. If that's a metaphor so are the harps, harps are earthly things. Just as a parabl earthly things r used to discribe heavnly things so that we Earthlng can better picture/understand what is being said. Rev 4:3 like a jasper. Y would heaven need material things. When the bible tells you what to do specifcaly that is exclusiv not inclusiv.
The dude on the phone wins, There is no logic in what this guy is saying.. This principle can be applied to any activity whatsoever. The Bible says nothing about being allowed to wear blue shirts while preaching so, why did you go beyond authority to decide to wear a blue shirt.
Stupid. This is what is destroying Christianity. The idiotic arguing over interpretations of shit. It is not your business how someone worships. If it allows them to praise God, then it is healthy and good. The End.
Do we not know that the New Testament Church went to the Temple everyday and worshipped God. Do we also know that the Psalms teach us to play with skill before the Lord? Did Jesus come to abolish the Old Testament? Also this scripture about scripture was written before the epistles could be bundled together and called doctrine. The NT Church could not have easy acess to what we call the NT. But what you point out in the NT says ALL scripture, not half or a third or the part I wrote.
Why do Church of Christ preachers take the word of God so literally. Im waiting for this guy to start telling people to pluck their eyes out if it leads them to sin. This is dogmatisim. This man is trying to act like he is God . Be very careful of any chruch that says they are the only ones who have it right. Nobody on this side of heaven can fully understand and comprehend the fullness of every scripture in the Word. Remember that even the devil knows the word of God.
"Remember that even the devil knows the word of God."
I thought "nobody this side of heaven can fully understand"? So is the "devil" in heaven? Satan knows God's word but God's people can't? You, sir, are a lunatic.....hypocrisy your rage
All you guys do is twist peoples comments to make it favor your belief. Youre a manipulative asshole is what you are. As an expert in criminal behavior, I can tell you that criminals do the same thing you are doing. Only one thing! I wont give into your manipulative comments and control. Im not vulnerable and I am pretty street smart. I dont have a problem verbally expressing myself and letting you know how I feel. Get some help! Your ill.
I thought about removing this comment because of the filthy language. I'm going to leave it so others can see the kind of attacks I get simply for telling the truth of God's word. I pray that you will repent and realize that I'm your friend because I don't you to be deceived by Satanic denominationalism.
Leave it, frame it, hang it on the wall! I don't give a damn. Repent? Repent for what? Standing my ground and standing up for what I believe? Don't think so! I guess everything is a sin to you. That's why your a cult. You wish to manipulate and twist everything around. Calling me a lunatic? That sure is Christian of you.
So you don't think it is a sin to cuss people and you don't have anything to repent of. Let me guess, you believe in once-saved-always-saved, right? And I didn't call you a lunatic. Your arguments may be loony, but I didn't call you a lunatic.
No but I bet you do. Oh no I drank a beer! Im going to hell! I said a cuss word! Oh No Im going to hell! I looked at that girls butt! Oh no Im going to hell. You see, many Christians claim so many things are sending us to hell but they really arent.
I cant think of a more uncomfortable environment than to go to a church preaching you are just one step away from hell all the while the Christian Mafia (Deacons) in their three piece suits are up there acting like they are perfect.
Black and white, simplistic reasoning: Underneath all the complicated jargon, you'll find a cult recruit dividing his or her world into 'good' and 'bad'. The shades of grey in which we all live are usually intolerable to a cult member.
Watch this guy long enough you will think everyone is hell bound. What a mean person. Trying to tell people because they listen to a trumpet they going to hell! Because if you dont do it my way youre going to hell! Hey Norm, YOURE FULL OF IT!
I could not agree with you more. Preachers like this actually turn people from God. Most preachers like this live in the back woods blue collar areas and dont have a clue about the real world and what happens in major metro areas and most preachers like this have some kind of issue with the constant need to feel in control of everyone. That is not of our Lord. This is why the Church of Christ population has decreased up to 13.4% in some states and its pues are graying.
Insturments were used in the old testiment and we are told in Revelation that they are used in heaven. How do we get off telling people that they are going to hell if they use an insturment. If they were so evil then we would have been insturcted not to use them. I dont know what this guy is going to do when Gabriel blows the trumpet. This chruch sounds like a cult.
"....we are told in Revelation that they (insturments*) are used in heaven."
Huh? Thought you just ridiculed this preacher for taking the Bible literally? Hypocrisy is always a sure sign of deMoNinationalism......you should be proud
Pastor Norm-Show me where the NT church is furnished to use computers, the internet, camcorders, and you tube by scripture? Or are those exempt from what you're talking about here?
Ture. This guy is sining because he is using a projector screen in his church. And they use sound systems and thoose were not in the New Testiment. Insturments are used to enhance worship just as projector screens and sound systems are used. I guess Chruch of Chirst is going to be shocked when gabriel blows the trumpet.
The bible doesn't condone the use of computers for teaching either, so are you not also in violation of Scripture? Arguing from silence is never a good logical approach.
Mr. Hinson, you just made his point.....no respect for authority....does teaching from a computer completely change the way u r worshipping God?
Then does playing instrumental music rather than singing acapella change the way u r worshipping?......call it legalism if u want, but if u r calling me legalistic, then u r calling Christ legalistic.....bc he ordered us to SING psalms of praise, not PLAY psalms of praise....my friend those r too completely different words
The Baconian inductive-deductive logic that you have unnaturally applied to the bible to construct this 'principle of exclusion' should itself be excluded on its own merits. You have made an either/or issue of mechanical instruments where a both/and could have fit under the law of Christ. The purpose of worship is to draw near—not to meet an inference and a command. We are neither free to do anything we want in worship nor bound by a strict Enlightenment interpretation of the bible.
Of course you realize that the scripture referred to in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is the Old Testament—since at the time 2 Timothy was written there was no New Testament. So I do not understand why we must find a New Testament 'pattern'. It is of course theologically correct that we no longer practice the sacrificial or purity laws of the Old Testament as they are fulfilled in Christ—however, we certainly are to continue praising God with voice and with instrument—we are to praise God in all we do!!
Is,t my life inside and out of Christian cooperate congregational worship suppose to be lived the same as my life outside of it, that is lived in Christ? You see this is where the Church has failed, we have separated our Christian lives into two groups, personal and cooperate. I see no Biblical basis other then when Jesus is talking to the hypocrites, where we are to live our Christian lives 2 different ways. If we can't play an instrument in a worship service (what u say) then we can't outiside
In Matt 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27, where Jesus says to love the Lord with among other things with all our might, does this not include playing instruments? Can you tell me with scripture, not to play my violin in a symphony with all my might as a sign of love to my God who has given me the talent, the gift of being able to play the violin? I'm just saying that if you are going to use this logic then "go all the way" and just say that playing instruments at all is evil. Can you say that?
What about Col 3:23? Paul is talking to slaves here, and were there not slaves or servants that were in charge of playing instruments for their earthly masters? Then should have they refused because they weren't, in your opinion, given scriptural authority to play their music "with all their heart, as working for the Lord , not for man." If I am to be a slave unto Christ is not everything I do suppose to be done unto the Lord?
Also "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." can you tell me where it says that we can only use the NT inspired word of God? Where does it say that the inspired word of God in the OT is useless for those in the first century Church as well as for us Christians living today? What about Jesus, Paul, and Peter using OT scripture in their ministry to prove their point?
When you use the verses that mention worship as singing Psalms do you think that this means using the Psalms of David? Because if it did then we see that we can use instruments because some of the Psalms were written specifically for using instruments. Read the written portions preceding Psalms 4,5,6. Also David wrote specifically about using instruments in worshiping God.
Caller, notice how he still didnt answer your question? The Bible doesnt say anything about using Youtube either, but it is a tool that can be used to further the cause of Christ(or hinder it!). In the age of grace we live in , the most important thing is the conversion of the lost. Please pray and ask God for guidance and knowledge, not this blasphemer!
using youtube does not ADD to the worship of the church. the command to go preach is still being applied. Adding instruments to worship is not authorized in the new testament.
If you were on a west bound train going to L.A. and someone told you they were going to New York,would you pat him on the back and say "have a nice trip",or would you tell him he is on the wrong train?
Preacher Norm, Do you have a verse that will give me authority to use the bathroom? I really have to go, but I know that I can't unless I have scripture to back it up.
2 Sam 6:5 "And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals." This was done while following the ark. Also at least one battle God commanded the Israelites to set worshipers accompanied by music to play throughout the battle.
It is not mentioned, but my point in this is disproving what you stated where the only place mechanical instruments were used was in the temple. By the way my bass is electric not mechanical. The use of instruments helps keep people in time and on key.
When the Temple was built the instruments of David were put in the Temple. In Jesus day that was the only place instruments were used, not the synagogues. Every time there is a reference to music in the New Testament it is singing, including Jesus and the apostles (Matt. 26:30). Do you suppose that Jesus had a bass and Peter a guitar? Maybe Philip had a tambourine and Thomas had bongoes. That fact is that after the instruments were put in the Temple that is where they were.
First bongos is the correct spelling, secondly the temple in Jesus day was the only place the very presence of God was. Since the crucifixion and the tearing of the curtain, symbolizing that we can be in God's presence and it is no longer confined to a single place. The instruments were used in the temple in the presence of God. So that would mean that since God's presence is wherever two or more gather in his name we have the ability if we want to use instruments as tools in our worship.
Where does the Bible authorize the use of a computer, a pew to sit in????.....a pitch pipe in no way hinders ur worship or changes it, neither does a pew or a computer......you may "feel" its right to use an instrument, but it says sing!!!!!!.....a pitch pipe is used to set the pitch, then is not even seen or heard during the song....ur ? is ridiculous & u kno it
David played the psalter. There was an entire line of the OT priesthood dedicated to making music with instruments. Many OT commands to make music with instruments. The NT cancelled none of that. So seems like the searching for "authority" from Scripture needs to be a bit wider. :)
Do you go to Jerusalem for the three high feast days? What about your garments, are they unmixed linens? Do you refrain from working on Saturday? If you are going to get your authority for music from the OT then why don't you keep all the law? (Gal. 5:3). The instrumental music authorized in the Old Testament would be among those "dead works" the Hebrews writer spoke of (Heb. 9:11-15; 6:1).
Jesus told you to keep OT law... In Matthew He said that He didn't come to destroy the law, but fulfill it. He also said that anyone who breaks the least command from the law or the Prophets (that would be directed as being morally intrinsic) would be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus told you to keep OT law... In Matthew He said that He didn't come to destroy the law, but fulfill it. He also said that anyone who breaks the least command from the law or the Prophets (that would be directed as being morally intrinsic) would be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Ouch, messy, small thing LIED ABOUT, then made spiritual. In Revelation, musical intruments are used in heaven. God had David spend SEVEN WHOPPING YEARS designing the hymns, and playing the lyre. Church is about DIDASKOLOS assembly, WORD TEACHING, music optional: Bible doesn't prohibit instruments, you're eisegeting. Or well -- it's your church, do what you want. Bye.
NOTE FOR READERS TRYING TO KEEP ALL COMMENTS AND REPLIES IN THEIR CONTEXT: Instead of reading them as they come up on the original screen, scroll to the bottom and click "View all (#) comments" and you'll see the entire thread from beginning to end. Scroll quickly to the bottom of that page and you'll be able to backtrack more easily and see which replies go with which comment. It makes more sense that way. When you reply there click VIEW then REFRESH to see your post show up in the right place.
Other contrasts between the OT(Material) and the NT (Spiritual). OT fleshy circumcision, NT circumcision of the heart Rom 2:29. OT mechanical music 2Chron 29:25, NT making melody with song from the heart from christians Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. I can't find any authority for mechanical instruments in the New Testament. To use them comes from the mind of man not from the word of God.
Kenn, the lexicon I quoted from uses the koine, and I have studied the koine. To limit the definition as you have is not proper. Norm even tried to say that the harps spoken of in heaven are "figurative" because the "vials" or bowls are supposedly figurative. there's really not much sense in continuing a discussion because you guys will change anything to make it fit your narrow views. "facilitate" or "alter" only works to your own perspective. Read next post.
I asked Norm to show one other example where God has permitted/encouraged an action in the OT, then forbid it in the NT, only to provide for it in heaven. Norm hasn't answered, no surprise there. I'm not opposed to a capella music--that's fine, and it can be very beautiful. I'm opposed to people like you and Norm condemning the actions of brothers and sisters in Christ, which are not condemned by God. You say "it isn't authorized, so it can't be done." Yet God's word does not say that.
What is really sad is that you guys, even though sincere, look totally foolish to mainstream Christianity and to non-Christians as well when you try to defend the usage of computers, websites, screens, projectors, hymnals, etc., and then denounce musical instruments because "they're not authorized." That's simply hypocrisy, and you're not willing to acknowledge it. But everyone else knows it.
I have answered that several times and you simply don't accept the answer. Well, your refusal to accept the answer doesn't mean that we have not answered. The fact is, an honest person using a little common sense can see that using teaching aids does not change the teaching into something else, using hymnals does not change the singing into something else, using a screen and projector doesn't change the message into something else. However, using instruments adds a totally different element.
No, Norm, you have not answered the question about another example where God allows/encourages something in the OT, does not allow in the NT, and provides for in heaven. You didn't even try to answer that one. Using instruments no more changes my singing than using a hymnal changes yours. It facilitates--like it or not. Your statement to the contrary does not prove otherwise.
Playing! Sining from a song book is still just sining. Also, Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 exclude any possibility of mechanical instruments being used. Both of those passages emphasize that the singing is congregational in nature. The Greek is literally to the effect of "each one speaking to each other one" (i.e. congregational). Well, if the passage included mech. inst., as you claim, then every one would have to be playing too!
You left out the second "n" in sinning. Yes, if you're sinning while using a song book, it's still a sin.
That's a joke...I know it was a typo. But on the other hand, if you're reading the words from a hymnal, you're doing something that is not "authorized" anywhere in the NT as far as I can tell. In no way am I saying they never used printed words to aid them in learning music, but it is never directly authorized (using your definition) in the NT. So in your view that should be altering.
And be careful how you force the idea that "if the passage included mech, inst., as you claim, then every one would have to be playing too!"
You weren't too keen on the idea that when Jesus said, "...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you..." that this means that everyone who makes disciples must also be baptizing them. Consistency counts.
You have not shown where using hymnals, which requires reading (both lyrics and music notes), separate from speaking or singing, is "authorized" in the NT. That is because you cannot. So instead of showing where reading words/music notes in order to sing or speak to one another, is authorized, you deem that it "facilitates". Bull-oney.
Norm, you hate the fact that this is no different than instruments "facilitating" our singing. Yet you continue to ignore simple facts. Read next post.
Can the singing, or speaking to one another be done without the hymnal? Of course it can. Can it be done without the instrument? Of course it can. So if singing or speaking can be accomplished without either of these, is it proper to say that a hymnal facilitates while an instrument alters? Not reasonably. Is it proper to say that one is more worthy of inclusion than the other? Not reasonably. Is it proper to say that God's word makes it clear which we can use and which we can't? Not reasonably.
You asked earlier if I was still here. Well, yes, I am still here but I am not inclined to keep stating the same thing over and over again to someone that isn't willing to listen to reason. However, when try to misrepresent what I have said the you should know that I am still keeping up with the comments.
I think I've done well in trying to listen to reason...it's just that it is very scarce in your arguments. What you claim is simply not reasonable--it is tainted to your understanding. There is very little logic or consistency in what you say. Exactly where did I try to misrepresent what you said?
And you talk about looking foolish to "mainstream Christianity and to non-Christians." Well, that suits me just fine (cf. 1 Cor. 1:18, 21). When it comes to looking foolish, I am more inclined to regard literal (material, physical) instruments being present in heaven (a spiritual place) as being foolish. Obviously, the instruments pictured as being in heaven are figurative. Since flesh and blood cannot enter heaven (1 Cor. 15:50; Lk. 24:39). So how are you going to hold your harp?
Flesh and blood, as such, will not enter heaven because it is not made to be imperishable. But will we only be "spirit" as you suggest? Will we possibly be in, as some suggest, "glorified" bodies, which although are not flesh and blood, yet are not totally immaterial? Norm, are you saying there will be no substance to anything in heaven, that it will all be "spiritual" or beyond the scope of any "senses"?
Add to that, if God is pleased to give "figurative" harps to "figurative" victors, would he not also be pleased to hear physical instruments accompanying physical singing to His glory? If you say it is improper, then would it also be improper for us to physically sing--since we are to worship "in spirit and in truth"? You assert that Eph. 5:19 restricts instruments, while I believe it clearly includes them. Read next post.
As Albert Barnes says, "In what way these were sung it is now vain to conjecture. Whether with or without instrumental accompaniment; whether by a choir or by the assembly; whether by an individual only, or whether they were by responses, it is not possible to decide from anything in the New Testament." You sing without and be happy...and quit telling us we're sinners because we choose to sing with. Where the Bible is silent...ah, you just be silent on everything, ok? (That's said with a smile.)
I am only searching for the truth. Revelation is a figurative book and the harps could be figurative. The main point is we don't have an approved example in the NT to use musical instruments. God changed to singing only with the NT. The bible tells us not to go beyond what is written 1Cor 4:6 and Paul said to stand firm in what he taught 2Thes 2:15. I don't see how we can add stuff to worship that the inspired apostles did not use. Even Calvin and Wesley thought that instruments were wrong.
Kenn, I don't know your background, but I would warn you against placing too much confidence in what Norm is stating here. I'm not questioning his motives or sincerity; just his judgment and consistency. Also be careful to see exactly what someone such as Calvin or Wesley said about instruments. I have read the Albert Barnes said instruments were wrong--which is absolutely a lie. His preference was that the emphasis would be on the vocal, but he did not forbid instruments. Not a slight misquote
And, Kenn, I'm glad that you are searching for the truth--if you truly seek it, I know you'll find it. You said that "God changed to singing only with the NT." Can you show me where the Bible says God changed? Norm can't show that God changed His mind on the usage of instruments--he just keeps saying, "It doesn't mention them." Then he uses that as an "inferred command" from God not to use them. It just doesn't make sense. Read next post.
I've asked Norm to show another example where the Bible clearly shows that God allows, or even encourages something in the OT (instruments were abundant in praise and worship), then forbid it in the NT (which at MOST is just not mentioned, not forbidden), and then provides for in heaven (he calls it figurative...even so, God provides harps of some sort, because the Bible says He does). If it pleased God before, and will please Him for eternity, why would it displease Him now? Read next post.
Add to that, it is Norm's contention that we must follow only what we explicitly see in the NT and ignore the practices of the OT worshipers. Do we not worship the same, one, true, Almighty God? Is the whole Bible not His inerrant word? Read next post.
Norm points out, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Norm wants to limit God's Holy Spirit inspired scriptures to the NT. But note that it says "ALL scripture..."--when that was written, Paul's writings would not have been considered "scripture" so Paul himself is saying that the OT is valid in this argument.
Remember Psalm 150:3-5 (SCRIPTURE) "Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him with the clash of cymbals praise him with resounding cymbals." God's word instructs us in this, but Norm doesn't want to listen to God's word (in this argument) unless it is in the NT. Read next post.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
In his video argument, Norm focuses heavily on the "all" in verse 17, but overlooks the "all" in verse 16. He's picking which parts of God's word should apply, according to his viewpoint. Read next post.
When this is pointed out, Norm wants to distinguish what God meant when Psalm 150 said to use instruments. "Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power." Norm contends that this is not meant for the church. He asked, "Where is God's sanctuary?" I ask, "Where is it not?" Is there a place where God cannot see? A place where God cannot hear? Is there a place where God cannot be praised? I don't condemn NI singing...Norm should not condemn instruments.
Mechanical music was introduced by Pope Vitalian about 700 AD. The Greek Orthodox Church never used them. Dr. Ferguson Harvard U. in "Instrumental Music in Worship" says that mechanical instruments of music were not used in the patristic period (men who wrote in the first four centuries after the establishment of the church). Just because a man says it is ok to use them does not make it so. What authority can we appeal to to use them?
Kenn, I already posted this in a response to Norm, but I'll print it here: As Albert Barnes says, "In what way these were sung it is now vain to conjecture. Whether with or without instrumental accompaniment; whether by a choir or by the assembly; whether by an individual only, or whether they were by responses, it is not possible to decide from anything in the New Testament."
Mechanical music (meaning organ) was said to be introduced in Pope Vitalian's time. Not instruments in general.
There is not a clear cut understanding that absolutely no instruments were ever used in the early days of the church. It is possible that they were, just as it is possible that they were not. However, knowing that many of these converts to Christianity came from Jewish backgrounds (temple worship) and from paganistic backgrounds (instruments also used in their worship), it is easily forseeable that instruments were used at some point, possibly very early on. It simply isn't forbidden by God.
Posting this again as studies have shown musical instruments were not used by the early church. Can you comment on this? Dr. Ferguson Harvard U. in "Instrumental Music in Worship" says that mechanical instruments of music were not used in the patristic period (men who wrote in the first four centuries after the establishment of the church). Just because a man says it is ok to use them does not make it so. What authority can we appeal to to use them?
Replying again as studies can't really show what did not happen...the best they can do is show that they could not find it happening. There is also some discrepancy in the idea of "mechanical" instrumentation and simple instruments. Another thing to consider, which the CoC refuses to consider, is that they go too far with the idea of Biblical Authority to begin with. Biblical Authority means that if God's word gives clear directives, then to disobey would be sin. Read next post.
If God's word does not give a clear directive, then to assume that the absence of something is God's clear condemnation of something is ludicrous. This is why I have repeatedly asked Norm for an example of something God allowed/encouraged in the OT, forbid in the NT, and provides for in heaven. He cannot give another example, because there is none to begin with. If it pleased God in the OT and if He provides for it in heaven (figruatively or not), it is foolishness to assert that He condemns it.
Paul speaks about differing opinions in Romans 14. He mentions eating meat (idol sacrifice) as opposed to veggies only. He mentions sacred days or non-observance. Overall he mentions this: "Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way." I have said over and over again, you worship without instruments and be happy--do not condemn me for using instruments...it's not your place. Read next post.
If using instruments seems truly sinful to you, then for you it would be a sin. To me, there is nothing sinful about the instrument being used to facilitate my singing and giving praise to God. So for me it would not be a sin. If I tried to force you to sing with instruments, or if I went around telling people that you're out of God's will and hell-bound because you refuse to use instruments, then I'd be putting up a stumbling block for you. I don't do that. What about you? Or Norm?
Consider the contrasts between the OT(Material) and the NT (Spiritual). OT mechanical music, NT making melody with song from the heart. OT had a literal Temple, NT Christians are the temple. OT animal sacrifice, NT our bodies are a living sacrifice. OT Levitical priests, NT Christians are priest. God wanted a clear change with the New Covenant.
Norm, in reading your explanation of this video, you said you don't extend fellowship to us in the Christian Church because we disregard Biblical authority. We don't--we just disregard your limited view of what God authorizes. I've shown you where God's word tells us to worship Him with instruments, and you counter with, "but not in church," because of your limited view that we don't see them specifically mentioned in the NT. At the Christian Church, we worship God in our church services.
Is it okay to sing about God and praise Him with instruments if it's outside the "church services"? Or does God hate the instruments altogether in connection to praising Him? By the way, although you may not accept it, we at the Christian Church do extend fellowship to you and the CoCNI--because you have been obedient to Christ in repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins, with the promise of receiving the Holy Spirit. That bond is stronger than a piano or guitar.
Yes, we use a projector to aid and facilitate the teaching. The projector and screen do not constitute an act separate and apart from the teaching. What is being done is still just teaching, not teaching AND dancing for example. So if you are going to say that its not different with the instrument then you are going to have to explain to me how you are still just singing and not singing AND playing. How is the playing not an act being added to the singing?
You have decided what will be facilitating and what will be altering. Neither of these is even spoken of in scripture. The CoCNI has developed certain doctrines and based them on such determinations, not directed by scripture, but by rationalization. You did not tell me how reading music (or words) while singing does not constitute a "separate" act in the same way that playing an instrument does. Also, if I'm singing while someone else is playing, am I still sinning, according to your doctrine?
The idea that you can add things that are not "authorized" by scripture, such as the screen, the computer, the power point, all of which are helpful, yet again, not specifically authorized, but cry about someone playing an instrument which is never denounced by God, and often spoken of throughout His word, even about usage in heaven by the "victorious ones" (that's the church, by the way), is just not sensible.
Psalm 150: Praise the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens. Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness. Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD. Read next post.
Your comment will be, "But that's the OT...we're the NT church." God is God of the OT and the NT...His word consists of the OT and the NT. This passage says to praise the Lord with many instruments and various ways. This is Biblical authority--authority you do not have the right to reason away. Does the Bible say to praise the Lord with instruments? Yes, it does, and by whose authority can you say we should not? Does God contradict Himself? Bottom line, again, God says it's ok, and I'm with Him.
Yes, God is the God of the OT and the NT but does God still require the same things of His people today? Does God require us to worship in the same way he required the Jews to worship? If so, then when was the last time you went up to Jerusalem for one of the high feast days?
I know what you mean about the comment streams, but it seems like when you log off and come back later it has them where you intended them--for the most part anyway.
Did God "require" worship in a specific fashion in the OT? Did He instruct exactly how to use the instruments? Does He instruct exactly how to worship in the NT? No, you argue that we can't use instruments today, not because we are instructed to use or not to use--but because we don't have specific scriptural "authority" to use them. In other words, you say they're not mentioned (which I disagree with anyway, "psallo").
Where is the sanctuary today? In your building, or in heaven? If its in heaven then why are you using instruments in your building? When this Psalm was written were was the sanctuary, on earth or in heaven? I'll give you a hint, the only place the Jews used instruments was in the Temple.
In the first verse of that Psalm, David tells the hearers to praise God "in His sanctuary" and "in His mighty heavens." Interesting how David tells people on earth to praise Him both in the sanctuary and in His heavens--could they really do that? Or perhaps he was telling them to praise God, (who is in His sanctuary in His mighty heavens) from where they were (here on earth). Surely you're not trying to separate those thoughts by saying he meant they were here, but God was there, are you?
Actually, I think the gist is that we are to praise God with our whole heart, in every way we can, in every place we are, and He (who is in heaven--and in our hearts) will be blessed. Since the "how" here definitely includes instruments, I'm happy to oblige. What you're trying to do reminds me of Jesus' words: "You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." You would condemn men for worshipping and praising the Almighty God, solely because they use an instrument along with their singing.
We both know that Paul meant that there was more to his ministry than being the one to immerse people--so that none could see him as the important facet of baptism. That was the problem being addressed; it didn't make it more special that Paul immersed or Apollos or whoever; but the command of Christ still says make disciples, baptizing and teaching them.
If Christ didn't authorize him to baptize, why did he baptize some folks? I'm sure you will argue that it doesn't say that. But Paul said it himself: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel", so according to the "Biblical authority" we see that Jesus did not give Paul the authrority to baptize--if we stricly adhere to what is said here.
As for Biblical authority in the matter of differing opinions in areas where there is no direct command to prohibit or forbid, Romans 14 basically tells you and me this: I won't bring my guitar into your worship service, and you stop telling folks I'm a sinner because I praise God with an instrument. And both of us will be just fine.
And if you think that's being ridiculous...I agree. But that's exactly how I see your stand on no musical instruments--ridiculous. I don't mean to offend you, but I believe that you have to be inconsistent in this to hold onto your views.
Earlier you said, "It doesn't alter your singing. It alters what you are doing. Where the Bible says "sing," and never says "play," when you use a song book, for example, you are still just singing." That's not quite true; if you're using a book, or anything else, you're reading--perhaps words, perhaps musical notes. So you're singing and reading--not just singing, as the scripture says.
The more comments you post to justify something the New Testament does not authorize the more you help me expose how Denominations play "loosey-goosey" with God's Holy Word!
If I knew that someone was lifting that song book up before the Lord as an item of worship I would exhort them to stop doing that too. You say that you are lifting up the mechanical instrumental music up to the Lord as an item of worship. When we use song books we are still only offering our singing up to God as an item of worship that He has specifically commanded (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16; Heb 2:12).
Now you're taking a totally different approach. I can't recall ever saying that I lift the instrument as an "item of worship", and definitely not something to be worshipped itself. I said it facilitates my worship, my singing. When we use song books it is no different; it aids us as we worship God, not instruments or books. Please be reasonable.
I have a much better idea for our discussion of this issue than posting this never ending stream of comments. Why don't we do a video debate. You do you ten minutes and post my video reply then I'll do my ten minutes and you post your video reply. I think many more people would watch the videos than are reading these comments. Don't You?
Actually, I think the running discussion is healthy enough; the thoughts are clear, and it allows people to examine and see truth and absurdity as they show themselves. Besides, I don't possess your "leading man" good looks, so a video session might frighten people away.
Is there a problem with the continuing discourse as is? I'm waiting to hear about the command to make disciples, "baptizing" and "teaching" and how a website can accomplish the baptizing part, without altering the original command.
I already answered that from Paul's example. He was the one doing the teaching however others were baptizing the ones he taught. What's the difference with that and when a person learns the gospel from by means on the web, TV, radio, whatever, and has someone else baptize them? I have gone and taught them and they have been baptized.
Strictly from that type of argument, Paul was in opposition to the command of Christ. Of course neither of us believe that he was, but using that argument, he would have been, because Jesus commanded His disciples to make more disciples, and was clear in how this was to be done--he didn't say make disciples by teaching them and having someone else baptize them. The command was given to the group as a whole, that all should follow.
I already quoted it to you but because you say that if what I said was true of Paul then he would have been in opposition to the command of Christ I'll quote it for you again,"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
(1Corinthians 1:17 KJV) Now, either your understanding of the Great Commission is faulty or Paul is in opposition to Christ. I'm siding with Paul here.
Ok, then either Paul is a liar, or he didn't follow Christ's command--or better, we're trying to make too much of what he said. Christ didn't send him to baptize: does this mean baptism is not important? Does it mean that Paul was not supposed to baptize people? If so, then he goofed up at least a few times.
Baptism is essential for salvation. Paul did baptize people. But you said that when Jesus said "go" that means the one going has to be the one doing the baptizing. Paul's quote here is to show that the one doing the teaching is not always the one doing the baptizing. I was taught by one man and baptized by another. So can't I be the one teaching while another does the baptizing and the Great Commission be fulfilled? You said, "no."
Norm, I know you must understand the slight nuances, however you still cling to arguments that can't stand up, because there's no other way to support the distinction between a website and an instrument in terms of facilitating or altering. Either they both facilitate, or they both alter. You can't have your Kate and Edith too...but that's a whole 'nuther doctrinal issue.
Although this indisputably "alters" the direct command of Christ, I do not believe in any way that it goes against the will of Christ to carry out His direct command. This is what I believe about the musical instruments; just because (you say) it does not have Biblical authority, I do not see that this means it goes against the will of Christ to give Him the honor and glory He is due. Just as you see the computer facilitating evangelism, I see the instrument facilitating our singing.
In your reference to Paul's statement about not being sent to baptize, you try to come at this from two different angles. Yes, one may teach and another baptize, but this in no way changes what Jesus gave in His command; make disciples, by baptizing and teaching. You are trying to make them followers of Christ, yet only hoping that they will follow through and seek out someone to baptize them. This is not the direct command of Christ. Please read next post.
Since the "how" requires Biblical authority, note that "how" we are told to make disciples is two-fold: "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," and "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." In using the computer and a website I can allow that you are, in a sense, "going." I can also see how you can use these tools to "teach them to obey." But can you baptize them? You said it yourself—"I'm not trying to baptize people with my computer!"
Literally, Jesus said, "As you are going...." This, although not a direct command to action, is an inferred command, because the expectation is given that they will be going. And you're right, in a way, that it doesn't say "how" they will be going. However, the direct command that is given is, "make disciples." This is the only direct command given in this verse. The "how" is what comes next. Please read next post.
Norm, I'll give this one more shot; you said that if something alters how we carry out the clear command of scripture, then it is acting without Biblical authority. When Jesus gave His disciples "the great commission, He said, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." In the next post or two, let's break that down.
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and violin playing. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all saxophonists—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
And sadly, Norm, I think you're probably a very genuine person who desires to follow the Lord with all your heart--but you're following traditions, just like the Pharisees. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that God is not pleased with our worship just because we use musical instruments.
Earlier you said that using instruments alters what we are doing because it says "singing", not "singing and playing." Does the usage of a computer and website, broadcasting your image and message around the world actually take YOU to the people? No, it alters how Jesus said to do it. He said to baptize and teach, not teach someone to go be baptized wherever they are located. No, I don't think that Jesus would be upset that we use technology, but He didn't authorize it in His command, did He?
"No work on the Sabbath," was distorted to the point that a father could not pick up his young child if his child was holding even a small stone in his hand. That would constitute work. But if the child first laid down the stone, then it would be ok. That was not God's command--that was a weird "over-interpretation" of a simple command God had given. Saying that we should sing praises to God, but only if no musical instruments are playing, is equally ridiculous and adding to God's command.
Jesus is speaking about the law that God had given when He said, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!" The Pharisees took the basic commands of God and added so many ridiculous "addendums" that became their rules, it simply ignored God's commands. Read my next post for an example.
I'm not sure if I missed it, but I didn't see a reply to my comment about baptizing people being part of the command of Jesus to "go" and make disciples; I'm not sure how using a computer and website facilitates this--it "alters" what we are doing, does it not?
How does the use of a computer to teach someone that they must be baptized for the remission of sins ALTER the command to baptize. I'm not trying to baptize people with my computer! If someone studies the material I am putting out on the Internet and learns the truth and goes to their local congregation of the church of Christ and is baptized then I have used my computer to FACILITATE the command to go.
Are you truly that blind, that you do not see the direct correlation between how sending your image and message instead of going to the people personally, "alters" the way it is stated in His command? Part of going personally is being there to baptize, which can't be done through a computer. Again, I'm not saying this makes it wrong to use a computer and website, I'm saying it's no different than using a musical instrument in worship. Like it or not, the instrument FACILITATES those who sing.
PreacherNorm I'd like to invite you to my channel
ChikaRonaldOgoke 1 month ago in playlist "What's Wrong With The Christian Church"
a very very confusing video
sharongodsgirl 4 months ago
The old testament teaches to worship with instruments. So you need a specific verse saying you cannot. If there is not a specific verse canceling worship with instruments in the new testament then you are rebelling against Gods instructions on how to worship him. That would make you one of those teachers you tell people to run away from. REPENT!
mobileauto 9 months ago
Christ created one Church. The COC is not it....It is close. Had Stone and Campbell known of the Orthodox Church, we would not have COC. Please look and study the history of the Church before the Roman Catholic take over. All the American folk religions came from the roman catholic church. Please look into the orthodox Church. The ONE AND ONLY CHURCH THAT CHRIST CREATED in AD33. Mat16:18 "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."
grassyknollblues 1 year ago
2 Tim 3:16-17 Is taken out of context. The Scripture that Paul was refering to was the OLD TESTAMENT.
grassyknollblues 1 year ago
2 tim 3:16-17 has nothing to do with whether it's ok or not ok to play musical instruments in the church today.Taken totally out of context.
jyzon4him 1 year ago
can you give the reference thats says, "and spreadith thy word on youtube"
kellyc5566 1 year ago
Are your songs taken from the Bible? If not, by what authority do you sing them?
Will4fun 1 year ago
Why then does a seminary like Lincoln Christian college train ministers for both the Churches of Christ and the Christian Churches???
Will4fun 1 year ago
y is it that ppl who don't except the bible at its word always argue ovr what the bible does not say. It says what it says, do as it says not as it does not say and you will make heaven rejoice. If I sent u 2 the store I tell u what I want that excludes evrthng else. If I told u what I did not want that would be 2 much, so I say bring me a loaf of bread, u may say what kind I may say Holsum that excludes not includes all others.So 2 make it easy 4 us God tells us what 2 do, excluding all othrs.
6153calme 1 year ago
@6153calme So if u go 2 the store for me and bring back Sara Lee bread and not Holsum r u going to tell me I did not say Sara Lee? Now do you get it folks, that's Y 1Pet 4:11 says speaks as the oracles of God, i.e Speak were the bible speaks, b silent where the bible is silent call bible things by bible names do bible things the bible way. Besides how can u show n the bible somthing that is not there, nor implied, inferred etc? Norm hits a knockout here, u keep it up bro Norm.
6153calme 1 year ago
Revelation 14:2 "And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and a voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of HARPISTS playing their Harps."
Obviously this guy never got entirely through the New Testament. Isn't a HARP a MECHANICAL INSTRUMENT?
t888m 2 years ago
Rev is mostly figurtiv not litrl if it says like sound many waters, a voice of loud thndr, how many voices do you hear that sound like thndr/many waters. If that's a metaphor so are the harps, harps are earthly things. Just as a parabl earthly things r used to discribe heavnly things so that we Earthlng can better picture/understand what is being said. Rev 4:3 like a jasper. Y would heaven need material things. When the bible tells you what to do specifcaly that is exclusiv not inclusiv.
6153calme 2 years ago
The dude on the phone wins, There is no logic in what this guy is saying.. This principle can be applied to any activity whatsoever. The Bible says nothing about being allowed to wear blue shirts while preaching so, why did you go beyond authority to decide to wear a blue shirt.
Stupid. This is what is destroying Christianity. The idiotic arguing over interpretations of shit. It is not your business how someone worships. If it allows them to praise God, then it is healthy and good. The End.
MRNIIK 2 years ago
Do we not know that the New Testament Church went to the Temple everyday and worshipped God. Do we also know that the Psalms teach us to play with skill before the Lord? Did Jesus come to abolish the Old Testament? Also this scripture about scripture was written before the epistles could be bundled together and called doctrine. The NT Church could not have easy acess to what we call the NT. But what you point out in the NT says ALL scripture, not half or a third or the part I wrote.
newliving 2 years ago
Jesus had a different spirit than the Phasrisees. Which spirit do you have? I will let the viewers decide.
100happythoughts 2 years ago
Well said!
99minerkc 2 years ago
Why do Church of Christ preachers take the word of God so literally. Im waiting for this guy to start telling people to pluck their eyes out if it leads them to sin. This is dogmatisim. This man is trying to act like he is God . Be very careful of any chruch that says they are the only ones who have it right. Nobody on this side of heaven can fully understand and comprehend the fullness of every scripture in the Word. Remember that even the devil knows the word of God.
Brent376 2 years ago 2
"Remember that even the devil knows the word of God."
I thought "nobody this side of heaven can fully understand"? So is the "devil" in heaven? Satan knows God's word but God's people can't? You, sir, are a lunatic.....hypocrisy your rage
TruthChamp 2 years ago
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Brent376 2 years ago
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Brent376 2 years ago
All you guys do is twist peoples comments to make it favor your belief. Youre a manipulative asshole is what you are. As an expert in criminal behavior, I can tell you that criminals do the same thing you are doing. Only one thing! I wont give into your manipulative comments and control. Im not vulnerable and I am pretty street smart. I dont have a problem verbally expressing myself and letting you know how I feel. Get some help! Your ill.
Brent376 2 years ago
"Youre a manipulative asshole is what you are."
Have no desire to "manipulate"...I simply pointed out your lack of Biblical integrity and your blatant hypocrisy....truth hurts I guess, huh chuck?
TruthChamp 2 years ago
I thought about removing this comment because of the filthy language. I'm going to leave it so others can see the kind of attacks I get simply for telling the truth of God's word. I pray that you will repent and realize that I'm your friend because I don't you to be deceived by Satanic denominationalism.
PreacherNorm 2 years ago
Leave it, frame it, hang it on the wall! I don't give a damn. Repent? Repent for what? Standing my ground and standing up for what I believe? Don't think so! I guess everything is a sin to you. That's why your a cult. You wish to manipulate and twist everything around. Calling me a lunatic? That sure is Christian of you.
Brent376 2 years ago
So you don't think it is a sin to cuss people and you don't have anything to repent of. Let me guess, you believe in once-saved-always-saved, right? And I didn't call you a lunatic. Your arguments may be loony, but I didn't call you a lunatic.
PreacherNorm 2 years ago
No but I bet you do. Oh no I drank a beer! Im going to hell! I said a cuss word! Oh No Im going to hell! I looked at that girls butt! Oh no Im going to hell. You see, many Christians claim so many things are sending us to hell but they really arent.
I cant think of a more uncomfortable environment than to go to a church preaching you are just one step away from hell all the while the Christian Mafia (Deacons) in their three piece suits are up there acting like they are perfect.
Brent376 2 years ago 2
omg I went to eat at cheesecake factory on Sunday! im going to hell! omg i listened to a harp in chruch! im going to hell!
Brent376 2 years ago
Symptom of a cult # 7
Black and white, simplistic reasoning: Underneath all the complicated jargon, you'll find a cult recruit dividing his or her world into 'good' and 'bad'. The shades of grey in which we all live are usually intolerable to a cult member.
Brent376 2 years ago
The cults manipulate guilt to their advantage.
Brent376 2 years ago
Watch this guy long enough you will think everyone is hell bound. What a mean person. Trying to tell people because they listen to a trumpet they going to hell! Because if you dont do it my way youre going to hell! Hey Norm, YOURE FULL OF IT!
Brent376 2 years ago 2
I could not agree with you more. Preachers like this actually turn people from God. Most preachers like this live in the back woods blue collar areas and dont have a clue about the real world and what happens in major metro areas and most preachers like this have some kind of issue with the constant need to feel in control of everyone. That is not of our Lord. This is why the Church of Christ population has decreased up to 13.4% in some states and its pues are graying.
sabrecs10 2 years ago
Norm are you casting the first stone? Sounds like it!
Brent376 2 years ago 2
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Brent376 2 years ago
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Brent376 2 years ago
I smell a cult!
Brent376 2 years ago
Insturments were used in the old testiment and we are told in Revelation that they are used in heaven. How do we get off telling people that they are going to hell if they use an insturment. If they were so evil then we would have been insturcted not to use them. I dont know what this guy is going to do when Gabriel blows the trumpet. This chruch sounds like a cult.
Brent376 2 years ago
"....we are told in Revelation that they (insturments*) are used in heaven."
Huh? Thought you just ridiculed this preacher for taking the Bible literally? Hypocrisy is always a sure sign of deMoNinationalism......you should be proud
TruthChamp 2 years ago
Pastor Norm-Show me where the NT church is furnished to use computers, the internet, camcorders, and you tube by scripture? Or are those exempt from what you're talking about here?
99minerkc 2 years ago
Ture. This guy is sining because he is using a projector screen in his church. And they use sound systems and thoose were not in the New Testiment. Insturments are used to enhance worship just as projector screens and sound systems are used. I guess Chruch of Chirst is going to be shocked when gabriel blows the trumpet.
Brent376 2 years ago
Hello Norm are you still there ? I haven't seen you on TV lately
CharlieRight 3 years ago
The bible doesn't condone the use of computers for teaching either, so are you not also in violation of Scripture? Arguing from silence is never a good logical approach.
BrianHinson 3 years ago
Mr. Hinson, you just made his point.....no respect for authority....does teaching from a computer completely change the way u r worshipping God?
Then does playing instrumental music rather than singing acapella change the way u r worshipping?......call it legalism if u want, but if u r calling me legalistic, then u r calling Christ legalistic.....bc he ordered us to SING psalms of praise, not PLAY psalms of praise....my friend those r too completely different words
1tim31617 3 years ago
1Tim, I like your screen name! Most people quote II Tim. 3:16-17 -- but I agree I Tim. 3:16-17 is great too! ;)
Mokus08 3 years ago
The Baconian inductive-deductive logic that you have unnaturally applied to the bible to construct this 'principle of exclusion' should itself be excluded on its own merits. You have made an either/or issue of mechanical instruments where a both/and could have fit under the law of Christ. The purpose of worship is to draw near—not to meet an inference and a command. We are neither free to do anything we want in worship nor bound by a strict Enlightenment interpretation of the bible.
Mokus08 3 years ago
Of course you realize that the scripture referred to in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is the Old Testament—since at the time 2 Timothy was written there was no New Testament. So I do not understand why we must find a New Testament 'pattern'. It is of course theologically correct that we no longer practice the sacrificial or purity laws of the Old Testament as they are fulfilled in Christ—however, we certainly are to continue praising God with voice and with instrument—we are to praise God in all we do!!
Mokus08 3 years ago
Is,t my life inside and out of Christian cooperate congregational worship suppose to be lived the same as my life outside of it, that is lived in Christ? You see this is where the Church has failed, we have separated our Christian lives into two groups, personal and cooperate. I see no Biblical basis other then when Jesus is talking to the hypocrites, where we are to live our Christian lives 2 different ways. If we can't play an instrument in a worship service (what u say) then we can't outiside
kbb6w4 3 years ago
In Matt 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27, where Jesus says to love the Lord with among other things with all our might, does this not include playing instruments? Can you tell me with scripture, not to play my violin in a symphony with all my might as a sign of love to my God who has given me the talent, the gift of being able to play the violin? I'm just saying that if you are going to use this logic then "go all the way" and just say that playing instruments at all is evil. Can you say that?
kbb6w4 3 years ago
Paul persecuted Christians w/out a guilty conscience (sp).....so is it possible for you to be wrong when you believe ur right????....
1tim31617 3 years ago
What about Col 3:23? Paul is talking to slaves here, and were there not slaves or servants that were in charge of playing instruments for their earthly masters? Then should have they refused because they weren't, in your opinion, given scriptural authority to play their music "with all their heart, as working for the Lord , not for man." If I am to be a slave unto Christ is not everything I do suppose to be done unto the Lord?
kbb6w4 3 years ago
Also "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." can you tell me where it says that we can only use the NT inspired word of God? Where does it say that the inspired word of God in the OT is useless for those in the first century Church as well as for us Christians living today? What about Jesus, Paul, and Peter using OT scripture in their ministry to prove their point?
kbb6w4 3 years ago
When you use the verses that mention worship as singing Psalms do you think that this means using the Psalms of David? Because if it did then we see that we can use instruments because some of the Psalms were written specifically for using instruments. Read the written portions preceding Psalms 4,5,6. Also David wrote specifically about using instruments in worshiping God.
kbb6w4 3 years ago
Caller, notice how he still didnt answer your question? The Bible doesnt say anything about using Youtube either, but it is a tool that can be used to further the cause of Christ(or hinder it!). In the age of grace we live in , the most important thing is the conversion of the lost. Please pray and ask God for guidance and knowledge, not this blasphemer!
luvable140 3 years ago
using youtube does not ADD to the worship of the church. the command to go preach is still being applied. Adding instruments to worship is not authorized in the new testament.
Facebut85 3 years ago
you guys need to be leading people to Jesus instead of telling them they are wrong. This is just bull hockey.
Daneduggan26 3 years ago
If you were on a west bound train going to L.A. and someone told you they were going to New York,would you pat him on the back and say "have a nice trip",or would you tell him he is on the wrong train?
Facebut85 3 years ago
beautiful illustration...
kynchi 3 years ago
Preacher Norm, Do you have a verse that will give me authority to use the bathroom? I really have to go, but I know that I can't unless I have scripture to back it up.
taxidrivr76 3 years ago
"What you do, do quickly" (Jn. 13:27). That's a joke, just like your comment.
We have generic authority for our normal bodily functions by the virtue that God created our bodies (Ps. 139:14).
PreacherNorm 3 years ago
No, he doesn't......so i guess you'll just have to pee on yourself....sorry man, but UR A JOKE TAXIDRIVR76
1tim31617 3 years ago
2 Sam 6:5 "And David and all the house of Israel played before the LORD on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals." This was done while following the ark. Also at least one battle God commanded the Israelites to set worshipers accompanied by music to play throughout the battle.
ltmarcos 3 years ago
Is this your example of worship in the New Testament church?
PreacherNorm 3 years ago
It is not mentioned, but my point in this is disproving what you stated where the only place mechanical instruments were used was in the temple. By the way my bass is electric not mechanical. The use of instruments helps keep people in time and on key.
ltmarcos 3 years ago
When the Temple was built the instruments of David were put in the Temple. In Jesus day that was the only place instruments were used, not the synagogues. Every time there is a reference to music in the New Testament it is singing, including Jesus and the apostles (Matt. 26:30). Do you suppose that Jesus had a bass and Peter a guitar? Maybe Philip had a tambourine and Thomas had bongoes. That fact is that after the instruments were put in the Temple that is where they were.
PreacherNorm 3 years ago
First bongos is the correct spelling, secondly the temple in Jesus day was the only place the very presence of God was. Since the crucifixion and the tearing of the curtain, symbolizing that we can be in God's presence and it is no longer confined to a single place. The instruments were used in the temple in the presence of God. So that would mean that since God's presence is wherever two or more gather in his name we have the ability if we want to use instruments as tools in our worship.
ltmarcos 3 years ago
THATS Y U HAVE SONG LEADERS!!!!!!!....& PITCH PIPES....1. to keep ppl on track & 2. to start on the right pitch
1tim31617 3 years ago
Where does the N T authorize the use of a pitch pipe?
CharlieRight 3 years ago
Where does the Bible authorize the use of a computer, a pew to sit in????.....a pitch pipe in no way hinders ur worship or changes it, neither does a pew or a computer......you may "feel" its right to use an instrument, but it says sing!!!!!!.....a pitch pipe is used to set the pitch, then is not even seen or heard during the song....ur ? is ridiculous & u kno it
1tim31617 3 years ago
David played the psalter. There was an entire line of the OT priesthood dedicated to making music with instruments. Many OT commands to make music with instruments. The NT cancelled none of that. So seems like the searching for "authority" from Scripture needs to be a bit wider. :)
brainouty 3 years ago
Do you go to Jerusalem for the three high feast days? What about your garments, are they unmixed linens? Do you refrain from working on Saturday? If you are going to get your authority for music from the OT then why don't you keep all the law? (Gal. 5:3). The instrumental music authorized in the Old Testament would be among those "dead works" the Hebrews writer spoke of (Heb. 9:11-15; 6:1).
PreacherNorm 3 years ago
Jesus told you to keep OT law... In Matthew He said that He didn't come to destroy the law, but fulfill it. He also said that anyone who breaks the least command from the law or the Prophets (that would be directed as being morally intrinsic) would be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
alexsoftysking 3 years ago
Jesus told you to keep OT law... In Matthew He said that He didn't come to destroy the law, but fulfill it. He also said that anyone who breaks the least command from the law or the Prophets (that would be directed as being morally intrinsic) would be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
alexsoftysking 3 years ago
Not to mention that they only had IM in the Temple. Where is the Temple of God today? How are you going to get instruments in there? ouch, messy.
PreacherNorm 3 years ago
Ouch, messy, small thing LIED ABOUT, then made spiritual. In Revelation, musical intruments are used in heaven. God had David spend SEVEN WHOPPING YEARS designing the hymns, and playing the lyre. Church is about DIDASKOLOS assembly, WORD TEACHING, music optional: Bible doesn't prohibit instruments, you're eisegeting. Or well -- it's your church, do what you want. Bye.
brainouty 3 years ago
NOTE FOR READERS TRYING TO KEEP ALL COMMENTS AND REPLIES IN THEIR CONTEXT: Instead of reading them as they come up on the original screen, scroll to the bottom and click "View all (#) comments" and you'll see the entire thread from beginning to end. Scroll quickly to the bottom of that page and you'll be able to backtrack more easily and see which replies go with which comment. It makes more sense that way. When you reply there click VIEW then REFRESH to see your post show up in the right place.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Other contrasts between the OT(Material) and the NT (Spiritual). OT fleshy circumcision, NT circumcision of the heart Rom 2:29. OT mechanical music 2Chron 29:25, NT making melody with song from the heart from christians Eph 5:19, Col 3:16. I can't find any authority for mechanical instruments in the New Testament. To use them comes from the mind of man not from the word of God.
purduekenn 4 years ago
Kenn, the lexicon I quoted from uses the koine, and I have studied the koine. To limit the definition as you have is not proper. Norm even tried to say that the harps spoken of in heaven are "figurative" because the "vials" or bowls are supposedly figurative. there's really not much sense in continuing a discussion because you guys will change anything to make it fit your narrow views. "facilitate" or "alter" only works to your own perspective. Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
I asked Norm to show one other example where God has permitted/encouraged an action in the OT, then forbid it in the NT, only to provide for it in heaven. Norm hasn't answered, no surprise there. I'm not opposed to a capella music--that's fine, and it can be very beautiful. I'm opposed to people like you and Norm condemning the actions of brothers and sisters in Christ, which are not condemned by God. You say "it isn't authorized, so it can't be done." Yet God's word does not say that.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
What is really sad is that you guys, even though sincere, look totally foolish to mainstream Christianity and to non-Christians as well when you try to defend the usage of computers, websites, screens, projectors, hymnals, etc., and then denounce musical instruments because "they're not authorized." That's simply hypocrisy, and you're not willing to acknowledge it. But everyone else knows it.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
I have answered that several times and you simply don't accept the answer. Well, your refusal to accept the answer doesn't mean that we have not answered. The fact is, an honest person using a little common sense can see that using teaching aids does not change the teaching into something else, using hymnals does not change the singing into something else, using a screen and projector doesn't change the message into something else. However, using instruments adds a totally different element.
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
No, Norm, you have not answered the question about another example where God allows/encourages something in the OT, does not allow in the NT, and provides for in heaven. You didn't even try to answer that one. Using instruments no more changes my singing than using a hymnal changes yours. It facilitates--like it or not. Your statement to the contrary does not prove otherwise.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Playing! Sining from a song book is still just sining. Also, Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 exclude any possibility of mechanical instruments being used. Both of those passages emphasize that the singing is congregational in nature. The Greek is literally to the effect of "each one speaking to each other one" (i.e. congregational). Well, if the passage included mech. inst., as you claim, then every one would have to be playing too!
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
You left out the second "n" in sinning. Yes, if you're sinning while using a song book, it's still a sin.
That's a joke...I know it was a typo. But on the other hand, if you're reading the words from a hymnal, you're doing something that is not "authorized" anywhere in the NT as far as I can tell. In no way am I saying they never used printed words to aid them in learning music, but it is never directly authorized (using your definition) in the NT. So in your view that should be altering.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
And be careful how you force the idea that "if the passage included mech, inst., as you claim, then every one would have to be playing too!"
You weren't too keen on the idea that when Jesus said, "...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you..." that this means that everyone who makes disciples must also be baptizing them. Consistency counts.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
You have not shown where using hymnals, which requires reading (both lyrics and music notes), separate from speaking or singing, is "authorized" in the NT. That is because you cannot. So instead of showing where reading words/music notes in order to sing or speak to one another, is authorized, you deem that it "facilitates". Bull-oney.
Norm, you hate the fact that this is no different than instruments "facilitating" our singing. Yet you continue to ignore simple facts. Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Can the singing, or speaking to one another be done without the hymnal? Of course it can. Can it be done without the instrument? Of course it can. So if singing or speaking can be accomplished without either of these, is it proper to say that a hymnal facilitates while an instrument alters? Not reasonably. Is it proper to say that one is more worthy of inclusion than the other? Not reasonably. Is it proper to say that God's word makes it clear which we can use and which we can't? Not reasonably.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
You asked earlier if I was still here. Well, yes, I am still here but I am not inclined to keep stating the same thing over and over again to someone that isn't willing to listen to reason. However, when try to misrepresent what I have said the you should know that I am still keeping up with the comments.
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
I think I've done well in trying to listen to reason...it's just that it is very scarce in your arguments. What you claim is simply not reasonable--it is tainted to your understanding. There is very little logic or consistency in what you say. Exactly where did I try to misrepresent what you said?
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
And you talk about looking foolish to "mainstream Christianity and to non-Christians." Well, that suits me just fine (cf. 1 Cor. 1:18, 21). When it comes to looking foolish, I am more inclined to regard literal (material, physical) instruments being present in heaven (a spiritual place) as being foolish. Obviously, the instruments pictured as being in heaven are figurative. Since flesh and blood cannot enter heaven (1 Cor. 15:50; Lk. 24:39). So how are you going to hold your harp?
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
Flesh and blood, as such, will not enter heaven because it is not made to be imperishable. But will we only be "spirit" as you suggest? Will we possibly be in, as some suggest, "glorified" bodies, which although are not flesh and blood, yet are not totally immaterial? Norm, are you saying there will be no substance to anything in heaven, that it will all be "spiritual" or beyond the scope of any "senses"?
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Add to that, if God is pleased to give "figurative" harps to "figurative" victors, would he not also be pleased to hear physical instruments accompanying physical singing to His glory? If you say it is improper, then would it also be improper for us to physically sing--since we are to worship "in spirit and in truth"? You assert that Eph. 5:19 restricts instruments, while I believe it clearly includes them. Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
As Albert Barnes says, "In what way these were sung it is now vain to conjecture. Whether with or without instrumental accompaniment; whether by a choir or by the assembly; whether by an individual only, or whether they were by responses, it is not possible to decide from anything in the New Testament." You sing without and be happy...and quit telling us we're sinners because we choose to sing with. Where the Bible is silent...ah, you just be silent on everything, ok? (That's said with a smile.)
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
I am only searching for the truth. Revelation is a figurative book and the harps could be figurative. The main point is we don't have an approved example in the NT to use musical instruments. God changed to singing only with the NT. The bible tells us not to go beyond what is written 1Cor 4:6 and Paul said to stand firm in what he taught 2Thes 2:15. I don't see how we can add stuff to worship that the inspired apostles did not use. Even Calvin and Wesley thought that instruments were wrong.
purduekenn 4 years ago
Kenn, I don't know your background, but I would warn you against placing too much confidence in what Norm is stating here. I'm not questioning his motives or sincerity; just his judgment and consistency. Also be careful to see exactly what someone such as Calvin or Wesley said about instruments. I have read the Albert Barnes said instruments were wrong--which is absolutely a lie. His preference was that the emphasis would be on the vocal, but he did not forbid instruments. Not a slight misquote
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
And, Kenn, I'm glad that you are searching for the truth--if you truly seek it, I know you'll find it. You said that "God changed to singing only with the NT." Can you show me where the Bible says God changed? Norm can't show that God changed His mind on the usage of instruments--he just keeps saying, "It doesn't mention them." Then he uses that as an "inferred command" from God not to use them. It just doesn't make sense. Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
I've asked Norm to show another example where the Bible clearly shows that God allows, or even encourages something in the OT (instruments were abundant in praise and worship), then forbid it in the NT (which at MOST is just not mentioned, not forbidden), and then provides for in heaven (he calls it figurative...even so, God provides harps of some sort, because the Bible says He does). If it pleased God before, and will please Him for eternity, why would it displease Him now? Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Add to that, it is Norm's contention that we must follow only what we explicitly see in the NT and ignore the practices of the OT worshipers. Do we not worship the same, one, true, Almighty God? Is the whole Bible not His inerrant word? Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Norm points out, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Norm wants to limit God's Holy Spirit inspired scriptures to the NT. But note that it says "ALL scripture..."--when that was written, Paul's writings would not have been considered "scripture" so Paul himself is saying that the OT is valid in this argument.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Remember Psalm 150:3-5 (SCRIPTURE) "Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him with the clash of cymbals praise him with resounding cymbals." God's word instructs us in this, but Norm doesn't want to listen to God's word (in this argument) unless it is in the NT. Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
In his video argument, Norm focuses heavily on the "all" in verse 17, but overlooks the "all" in verse 16. He's picking which parts of God's word should apply, according to his viewpoint. Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
When this is pointed out, Norm wants to distinguish what God meant when Psalm 150 said to use instruments. "Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power." Norm contends that this is not meant for the church. He asked, "Where is God's sanctuary?" I ask, "Where is it not?" Is there a place where God cannot see? A place where God cannot hear? Is there a place where God cannot be praised? I don't condemn NI singing...Norm should not condemn instruments.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Mechanical music was introduced by Pope Vitalian about 700 AD. The Greek Orthodox Church never used them. Dr. Ferguson Harvard U. in "Instrumental Music in Worship" says that mechanical instruments of music were not used in the patristic period (men who wrote in the first four centuries after the establishment of the church). Just because a man says it is ok to use them does not make it so. What authority can we appeal to to use them?
purduekenn 4 years ago
Kenn, I already posted this in a response to Norm, but I'll print it here: As Albert Barnes says, "In what way these were sung it is now vain to conjecture. Whether with or without instrumental accompaniment; whether by a choir or by the assembly; whether by an individual only, or whether they were by responses, it is not possible to decide from anything in the New Testament."
Mechanical music (meaning organ) was said to be introduced in Pope Vitalian's time. Not instruments in general.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
There is not a clear cut understanding that absolutely no instruments were ever used in the early days of the church. It is possible that they were, just as it is possible that they were not. However, knowing that many of these converts to Christianity came from Jewish backgrounds (temple worship) and from paganistic backgrounds (instruments also used in their worship), it is easily forseeable that instruments were used at some point, possibly very early on. It simply isn't forbidden by God.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Posting this again as studies have shown musical instruments were not used by the early church. Can you comment on this? Dr. Ferguson Harvard U. in "Instrumental Music in Worship" says that mechanical instruments of music were not used in the patristic period (men who wrote in the first four centuries after the establishment of the church). Just because a man says it is ok to use them does not make it so. What authority can we appeal to to use them?
purduekenn 4 years ago
Replying again as studies can't really show what did not happen...the best they can do is show that they could not find it happening. There is also some discrepancy in the idea of "mechanical" instrumentation and simple instruments. Another thing to consider, which the CoC refuses to consider, is that they go too far with the idea of Biblical Authority to begin with. Biblical Authority means that if God's word gives clear directives, then to disobey would be sin. Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
If God's word does not give a clear directive, then to assume that the absence of something is God's clear condemnation of something is ludicrous. This is why I have repeatedly asked Norm for an example of something God allowed/encouraged in the OT, forbid in the NT, and provides for in heaven. He cannot give another example, because there is none to begin with. If it pleased God in the OT and if He provides for it in heaven (figruatively or not), it is foolishness to assert that He condemns it.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Paul speaks about differing opinions in Romans 14. He mentions eating meat (idol sacrifice) as opposed to veggies only. He mentions sacred days or non-observance. Overall he mentions this: "Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way." I have said over and over again, you worship without instruments and be happy--do not condemn me for using instruments...it's not your place. Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
If using instruments seems truly sinful to you, then for you it would be a sin. To me, there is nothing sinful about the instrument being used to facilitate my singing and giving praise to God. So for me it would not be a sin. If I tried to force you to sing with instruments, or if I went around telling people that you're out of God's will and hell-bound because you refuse to use instruments, then I'd be putting up a stumbling block for you. I don't do that. What about you? Or Norm?
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Consider the contrasts between the OT(Material) and the NT (Spiritual). OT mechanical music, NT making melody with song from the heart. OT had a literal Temple, NT Christians are the temple. OT animal sacrifice, NT our bodies are a living sacrifice. OT Levitical priests, NT Christians are priest. God wanted a clear change with the New Covenant.
purduekenn 4 years ago
For me, I really respect what the scriptures says. 1Cor. 4:6; 1Pet. 4:11...To God be the glory...
biblos07 4 years ago
Norm...are you still there?
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
I guess not....
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Norm, in reading your explanation of this video, you said you don't extend fellowship to us in the Christian Church because we disregard Biblical authority. We don't--we just disregard your limited view of what God authorizes. I've shown you where God's word tells us to worship Him with instruments, and you counter with, "but not in church," because of your limited view that we don't see them specifically mentioned in the NT. At the Christian Church, we worship God in our church services.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Is it okay to sing about God and praise Him with instruments if it's outside the "church services"? Or does God hate the instruments altogether in connection to praising Him? By the way, although you may not accept it, we at the Christian Church do extend fellowship to you and the CoCNI--because you have been obedient to Christ in repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins, with the promise of receiving the Holy Spirit. That bond is stronger than a piano or guitar.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Norm, I'm curious: does your church use a big screen and project words/music or sermon notes, etc. in the worship service?
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Yes, we use a projector to aid and facilitate the teaching. The projector and screen do not constitute an act separate and apart from the teaching. What is being done is still just teaching, not teaching AND dancing for example. So if you are going to say that its not different with the instrument then you are going to have to explain to me how you are still just singing and not singing AND playing. How is the playing not an act being added to the singing?
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
You have decided what will be facilitating and what will be altering. Neither of these is even spoken of in scripture. The CoCNI has developed certain doctrines and based them on such determinations, not directed by scripture, but by rationalization. You did not tell me how reading music (or words) while singing does not constitute a "separate" act in the same way that playing an instrument does. Also, if I'm singing while someone else is playing, am I still sinning, according to your doctrine?
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
The idea that you can add things that are not "authorized" by scripture, such as the screen, the computer, the power point, all of which are helpful, yet again, not specifically authorized, but cry about someone playing an instrument which is never denounced by God, and often spoken of throughout His word, even about usage in heaven by the "victorious ones" (that's the church, by the way), is just not sensible.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Psalm 150: Praise the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens. Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness. Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD. Read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Your comment will be, "But that's the OT...we're the NT church." God is God of the OT and the NT...His word consists of the OT and the NT. This passage says to praise the Lord with many instruments and various ways. This is Biblical authority--authority you do not have the right to reason away. Does the Bible say to praise the Lord with instruments? Yes, it does, and by whose authority can you say we should not? Does God contradict Himself? Bottom line, again, God says it's ok, and I'm with Him.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Yes, God is the God of the OT and the NT but does God still require the same things of His people today? Does God require us to worship in the same way he required the Jews to worship? If so, then when was the last time you went up to Jerusalem for one of the high feast days?
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
[I hate these comment streams! Now its putting my comments in the wrong place. This was supposed to be under the previous comment.]
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
I know what you mean about the comment streams, but it seems like when you log off and come back later it has them where you intended them--for the most part anyway.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Did God "require" worship in a specific fashion in the OT? Did He instruct exactly how to use the instruments? Does He instruct exactly how to worship in the NT? No, you argue that we can't use instruments today, not because we are instructed to use or not to use--but because we don't have specific scriptural "authority" to use them. In other words, you say they're not mentioned (which I disagree with anyway, "psallo").
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Where is the sanctuary today? In your building, or in heaven? If its in heaven then why are you using instruments in your building? When this Psalm was written were was the sanctuary, on earth or in heaven? I'll give you a hint, the only place the Jews used instruments was in the Temple.
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
In the first verse of that Psalm, David tells the hearers to praise God "in His sanctuary" and "in His mighty heavens." Interesting how David tells people on earth to praise Him both in the sanctuary and in His heavens--could they really do that? Or perhaps he was telling them to praise God, (who is in His sanctuary in His mighty heavens) from where they were (here on earth). Surely you're not trying to separate those thoughts by saying he meant they were here, but God was there, are you?
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Actually, I think the gist is that we are to praise God with our whole heart, in every way we can, in every place we are, and He (who is in heaven--and in our hearts) will be blessed. Since the "how" here definitely includes instruments, I'm happy to oblige. What you're trying to do reminds me of Jesus' words: "You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." You would condemn men for worshipping and praising the Almighty God, solely because they use an instrument along with their singing.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Did the first century church own buildings or accumulate funds? I don't remember seeing it in the Bible . Where is the authority for that?
CharlieRight 4 years ago
We both know that Paul meant that there was more to his ministry than being the one to immerse people--so that none could see him as the important facet of baptism. That was the problem being addressed; it didn't make it more special that Paul immersed or Apollos or whoever; but the command of Christ still says make disciples, baptizing and teaching them.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
If Christ didn't authorize him to baptize, why did he baptize some folks? I'm sure you will argue that it doesn't say that. But Paul said it himself: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel", so according to the "Biblical authority" we see that Jesus did not give Paul the authrority to baptize--if we stricly adhere to what is said here.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
As for Biblical authority in the matter of differing opinions in areas where there is no direct command to prohibit or forbid, Romans 14 basically tells you and me this: I won't bring my guitar into your worship service, and you stop telling folks I'm a sinner because I praise God with an instrument. And both of us will be just fine.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
And if you think that's being ridiculous...I agree. But that's exactly how I see your stand on no musical instruments--ridiculous. I don't mean to offend you, but I believe that you have to be inconsistent in this to hold onto your views.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Earlier you said, "It doesn't alter your singing. It alters what you are doing. Where the Bible says "sing," and never says "play," when you use a song book, for example, you are still just singing." That's not quite true; if you're using a book, or anything else, you're reading--perhaps words, perhaps musical notes. So you're singing and reading--not just singing, as the scripture says.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
The more comments you post to justify something the New Testament does not authorize the more you help me expose how Denominations play "loosey-goosey" with God's Holy Word!
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
"loosey-goosey"...is that in the KJV or NASB? I can't find it.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
If I knew that someone was lifting that song book up before the Lord as an item of worship I would exhort them to stop doing that too. You say that you are lifting up the mechanical instrumental music up to the Lord as an item of worship. When we use song books we are still only offering our singing up to God as an item of worship that He has specifically commanded (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16; Heb 2:12).
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
Now you're taking a totally different approach. I can't recall ever saying that I lift the instrument as an "item of worship", and definitely not something to be worshipped itself. I said it facilitates my worship, my singing. When we use song books it is no different; it aids us as we worship God, not instruments or books. Please be reasonable.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
I have a much better idea for our discussion of this issue than posting this never ending stream of comments. Why don't we do a video debate. You do you ten minutes and post my video reply then I'll do my ten minutes and you post your video reply. I think many more people would watch the videos than are reading these comments. Don't You?
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
Actually, I think the running discussion is healthy enough; the thoughts are clear, and it allows people to examine and see truth and absurdity as they show themselves. Besides, I don't possess your "leading man" good looks, so a video session might frighten people away.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
C'mon, you can hide behind PowerPoint slides.
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
Is there a problem with the continuing discourse as is? I'm waiting to hear about the command to make disciples, "baptizing" and "teaching" and how a website can accomplish the baptizing part, without altering the original command.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
I already answered that from Paul's example. He was the one doing the teaching however others were baptizing the ones he taught. What's the difference with that and when a person learns the gospel from by means on the web, TV, radio, whatever, and has someone else baptize them? I have gone and taught them and they have been baptized.
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
Strictly from that type of argument, Paul was in opposition to the command of Christ. Of course neither of us believe that he was, but using that argument, he would have been, because Jesus commanded His disciples to make more disciples, and was clear in how this was to be done--he didn't say make disciples by teaching them and having someone else baptize them. The command was given to the group as a whole, that all should follow.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
I already quoted it to you but because you say that if what I said was true of Paul then he would have been in opposition to the command of Christ I'll quote it for you again,"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
(1Corinthians 1:17 KJV) Now, either your understanding of the Great Commission is faulty or Paul is in opposition to Christ. I'm siding with Paul here.
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
Ok, then either Paul is a liar, or he didn't follow Christ's command--or better, we're trying to make too much of what he said. Christ didn't send him to baptize: does this mean baptism is not important? Does it mean that Paul was not supposed to baptize people? If so, then he goofed up at least a few times.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Baptism is essential for salvation. Paul did baptize people. But you said that when Jesus said "go" that means the one going has to be the one doing the baptizing. Paul's quote here is to show that the one doing the teaching is not always the one doing the baptizing. I was taught by one man and baptized by another. So can't I be the one teaching while another does the baptizing and the Great Commission be fulfilled? You said, "no."
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
Norm, I know you must understand the slight nuances, however you still cling to arguments that can't stand up, because there's no other way to support the distinction between a website and an instrument in terms of facilitating or altering. Either they both facilitate, or they both alter. You can't have your Kate and Edith too...but that's a whole 'nuther doctrinal issue.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Although this indisputably "alters" the direct command of Christ, I do not believe in any way that it goes against the will of Christ to carry out His direct command. This is what I believe about the musical instruments; just because (you say) it does not have Biblical authority, I do not see that this means it goes against the will of Christ to give Him the honor and glory He is due. Just as you see the computer facilitating evangelism, I see the instrument facilitating our singing.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
In your reference to Paul's statement about not being sent to baptize, you try to come at this from two different angles. Yes, one may teach and another baptize, but this in no way changes what Jesus gave in His command; make disciples, by baptizing and teaching. You are trying to make them followers of Christ, yet only hoping that they will follow through and seek out someone to baptize them. This is not the direct command of Christ. Please read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Since the "how" requires Biblical authority, note that "how" we are told to make disciples is two-fold: "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," and "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." In using the computer and a website I can allow that you are, in a sense, "going." I can also see how you can use these tools to "teach them to obey." But can you baptize them? You said it yourself—"I'm not trying to baptize people with my computer!"
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Literally, Jesus said, "As you are going...." This, although not a direct command to action, is an inferred command, because the expectation is given that they will be going. And you're right, in a way, that it doesn't say "how" they will be going. However, the direct command that is given is, "make disciples." This is the only direct command given in this verse. The "how" is what comes next. Please read next post.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Norm, I'll give this one more shot; you said that if something alters how we carry out the clear command of scripture, then it is acting without Biblical authority. When Jesus gave His disciples "the great commission, He said, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." In the next post or two, let's break that down.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and violin playing. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all saxophonists—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
And sadly, Norm, I think you're probably a very genuine person who desires to follow the Lord with all your heart--but you're following traditions, just like the Pharisees. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that God is not pleased with our worship just because we use musical instruments.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Earlier you said that using instruments alters what we are doing because it says "singing", not "singing and playing." Does the usage of a computer and website, broadcasting your image and message around the world actually take YOU to the people? No, it alters how Jesus said to do it. He said to baptize and teach, not teach someone to go be baptized wherever they are located. No, I don't think that Jesus would be upset that we use technology, but He didn't authorize it in His command, did He?
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
"No work on the Sabbath," was distorted to the point that a father could not pick up his young child if his child was holding even a small stone in his hand. That would constitute work. But if the child first laid down the stone, then it would be ok. That was not God's command--that was a weird "over-interpretation" of a simple command God had given. Saying that we should sing praises to God, but only if no musical instruments are playing, is equally ridiculous and adding to God's command.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
Jesus is speaking about the law that God had given when He said, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!" The Pharisees took the basic commands of God and added so many ridiculous "addendums" that became their rules, it simply ignored God's commands. Read my next post for an example.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
I'm not sure if I missed it, but I didn't see a reply to my comment about baptizing people being part of the command of Jesus to "go" and make disciples; I'm not sure how using a computer and website facilitates this--it "alters" what we are doing, does it not?
FASyndicroud 4 years ago
How does the use of a computer to teach someone that they must be baptized for the remission of sins ALTER the command to baptize. I'm not trying to baptize people with my computer! If someone studies the material I am putting out on the Internet and learns the truth and goes to their local congregation of the church of Christ and is baptized then I have used my computer to FACILITATE the command to go.
PreacherNorm 4 years ago
Are you truly that blind, that you do not see the direct correlation between how sending your image and message instead of going to the people personally, "alters" the way it is stated in His command? Part of going personally is being there to baptize, which can't be done through a computer. Again, I'm not saying this makes it wrong to use a computer and website, I'm saying it's no different than using a musical instrument in worship. Like it or not, the instrument FACILITATES those who sing.
FASyndicroud 4 years ago