Sure, moron, thats why you already ADMITTED to being McClernard and GrafGirl.......Your Quote was..."so what? I have many screen names. Doesn't everyone?...."
Ofcourse, after being humiliated, that you were "kidding"....
LOL...
..some Advice Hoffie, once you come out of the closet, you can't go back in....
Here is the deal, Sissy......YOU ARE GAY. Stop calling everyone "Fag". You are clearly a closeted homosexual, and everyone here knows it. You have another screen name, "GrafGirl" and your homepage is dedicated to ....
..Women's Ice Skating.....LOL, LOL, LOL...
..I couldn't find someone more GAY if I tried, Sissy Mary.....
You are GAY,you are HUMILIATED, and you are projecting, Sissy...
...it's fine to be gay, it isn't fine to be a closet case.....
Jeez, Graf fans will never get over the fact that Seles so easily took away the number one ranking.
Its pathetic......Great match by to great champions. Great to see Martina fight and battle well into her thirties, not ducking the younger more powerful generation.
We'll certainly not get over the fact Seles benefitted from the first scandal around Steffi's father to rob the 1st world place, that's for sure.
Had Steffi stopped her career then (and she wasn't far from taking such a decision at this time), you would still think Seles was better than Steffi.
By the way, when Seles announced her come back, Seteffi's father was suddenly put in jails, and Steffi herself happened to be under the threat of imprisonment.
You have too many screen names Hoffie. I don't like it. I will converse with ONE PERSON, ONE Screen name. This charade is bizarre, pretending to be different people with different screen names.
i have said my peace to you on another thread, so there isn't much more to say.
As for Graf, Martina and Seles, we will have to agree to disagree.
Let me leave you with this: THIS IS NOT LIFE OR DEATH. You have one opinion, I have another....
You have too many screen names Hoffie. I don't like it. I will converse with ONE PERSON, ONE Screen name. This charade is bizarre, pretending to be different people with different screen names.
i have said my peace to you on another thread, so there isn't much more to say.
As for Graf, Martina and Seles, we will have to agree to disagree.
Let me leave you with this: THIS IS NOT LIFE OR DEATH. You have one opinion, I have another....
You have too many screen names Hoffie. I don't like it. I will converse with ONE PERSON, ONE Screen name. This charade is bizarre, pretending to be different people with different screen names..
i have said my peace to you on another thread, so there isn't much more to say.
As for Graf, Martina and Seles, we will have to agree to disagree.
Let me leave you with this: THIS IS NOT LIFE OR DEATH. You have one opinion, I have another....
Actually, she's so kind and tender towards these poor traumatized children that sometimes, they burst into tears when she has to leave.
I could even quote some overwhelming things she did for them, but Steffi's aunt pleased me to no repeat them, as Steffi definitely didn't do them to promote her public image, contrarily to what you might be tempted to insinuate
We are in a discussion about whose achievements in tennis is more impressive, Graf or Martina. I give Martina the ultimate respect (while I still am impressed by Graf) due to her total dominance in all 3 disciplines of singles, doubles, mixed , all at the same time. The difficulty level of getting so many singles slams while splitting time and energy towards the other 2 disciplines is beyong imagination.
And Martina had to contend with another 18 slam tennis great, 80 times they fought. She also has a myriad of other deep issues to deal with for example her escape from the Communist regime in Czeckoslovakia, her status as a lesbian player..
.. she overcame all these and more. Now, she spends most of her time carrying on her fight against for gay rights (even filing law suits), environmental issues, charities.
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Martina IS the greatest person who ever played tennis, period.
You are perfectly right to enhance Martina's record and personality, for they are indeed great. Nobody will dispute this (and certainly not Steffi herself).
Still, when you utter that she IS the greatest person who ever played tennis, that remains your (most respectable) personal opinion. Don't get angry if (many) others don't share it (and anyway, it doesn't mean they have no respect for Navratilova, far from it).
Give it a rest you 2 morons. Nobody gives a damn about your stupid agendas-
For uuduu7 rambling over the top Navratilova ass kissing and Graf bashing
For Hoffenheim rambling over the top Graf ass kissing
You are both losers for spamming this video with your retarded nonsense repeated 200 times over filled with your biases which nobody except yourselves will ever come to terms with.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
To have admitted that Graf is a greater player than herself would have made Martina seem like a falsely humble person when everything shows Martina to be every bit a greater player than Graf ever was.
I was forgetting : Navratilova won 6 GS in a row on only 3 different surfaces (clay, grass and decoturf) whereas Steffi won 5 in succession on 4 different surfaces (rebound ace, clay, grass and decoturf)
The surfaces are generically classified into hard, grass and clay. Trying to further subdivide each type into further types is neverending. Example, different types of clays and grasses and asphalts are played in almost every tennis tournaments.
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SO, a player's mastery over all surface are generally considered to be at whatever available surfaces at that current time to be fair to that player.
SO, u cannot diminish Borg's achievements just because he used wood rackets. U cannot say McEnroa is better on carpet than McEnroa just because he's won so few carpet tournys (as very little tournys r played on carpet these days).
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Martina did win 6 slams on all 3 generic surfaces, I think thats enough to prove her prowess over all surfaces. Are u also aware that she holds 3 of the 6 longest winning streaks of matches ever ?
I think most pple think highly of Steffi becos she did not have a big rival before and after Seles , BUT I see Martina's rise out of Evert's great shadow as something even more impressive simply becos Evert was a giant , with a fearsome reputation . And to win a 6-slam-streak when Evert was still on the scene was incredible..
Anyway, most tennis critics are split over who is greater, Steffi OR Martina - it really depends on which department of criteria u want ot emphasize...
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If going by Steffi's dominance over her rivals, she's impressive BUT her rivals r obviously inconsistent players, stabbed pple and retiring greats.
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Name a rival of Steffi that can be mentioned in the same breath as Chris Evert ?
Martina had her golden years in 1983-84, after that it was a gradual decline.
Like I said before, Martina - Court - Graf - Evert each had deficiencies in their fine records.
Court probably did not have a chance to win on some surfaces as all her slams were won during and before 1973, but its not her fault.
Graf did not have a long-lasting strong adversary like Evert and Martina who had to face each other often. And she saved lots of energy by skipping doubles and mixed events.
@uuduu7 after 83-84 it was a gradual decline, LOL! In 85 and 86 Martina was nearly as dominant as 83 and 84. Of course a bit less only because Chris and Hana were playing much better, not because Martina was playing any worse. Chris and Martina did not really have their primes together. Chris's was 1974-1980 and Martina's 1982-1987 or so and the rest of the womens field while MArtina was on top sucked.
Martina holds the record for total titles won in the open era.. Besides being the top singles player, she is also the greatest doubles female player ever. (check she has the career Grand Slam for singles/doubles/mixed doubles, total doubles title, longest winning streak ever in doubles)
Can u even imagine playing BOTH singles and doubles year after year for each 2-week slams , the extreme efforts ?
Can Steffi perform the same level in singles if she has to play doubles too ?
@uuduu7 if Martina were the greatest female doubles player ever why did she have to play until she was 50 to finally reach/slightly surpass the doubles stats of Court in a far more competitive doubles era. And Martina is definitely not the greatest singles player ever. Court, Evert, and Graf all have better singles credentials overall than she has.
1) I said half of Court's career was before the open era, tennis experts have to regard titles won before open era with an esterisk because of the barring of many players from playing in tournaments. Get it ?
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2) Martina's world record number of singles career titles has never been disputed, its been quoted over and over again in tennis journals, I think u r hallucinating about Court's numbers ..
1. This statement is stupid. The womens game was nothing like the mens in the pre Open era sense. All the best players were playing the "amateur" game. Once the Open Era began it was all the same top players as 1960-1967 when Court won her other slams.
2. The players that played before the Open Era dont have their title count accurately recorded. Laver, King, and many others won many more titles than they are listed as. Those who researched it say Court won over 200.
3) Your precious Margaret Court is simply unfortunate to have started playing way before the open era, accept that ! All achievements before the open era, men or women are regarded with a question mark, get in touch with a tennis expert and stop making a fool of yrself .
4) I know that players frequently skipped Australian Opens. As for French Opens, Evert won it in 75, 79, 80 !
Where did u get that she skipped French from 75-80 ? Pls get yr facts right .
@uuduu7 my precious Court, ROTFL!! I am not even a Court fan you fool, I am simply pointing out the facts. You are the one who is so blinded with your adoration with Martina you manipulate all the facts to make it that only she could be argued as the greatest ever which is far from the case.
3) Pls keep in mind that half of Court's titles were won before open era.
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4) U can look at a player's longevity in a positive or negative way. Martina's longevity shows that she's able to maintain her fitness and agility much longer than most players. Whether u r a late bloomer like Federer or a prodigy like Hingis, what matters is the cumulative numbers at the end of the career.
5) you must be kidding about Martina's singles achievements. She owns 3 of the 6 longest winning streaks all time including the longest. If that is not historic I don't know what is. She used to skip slams such as Australian due to its relative less prestige during those days..
Most tennis experts regard Martina with a sense of awe, of course except for those ill-informed little ones..
@uuduu7 If you want to talk about what ifs Evert probably would have won about 25 slams if she played the French and Australian each year from 75-80. She was untouchable on clay then and usually the one to beat on grass. Chris was hurt by that WAY more than Martina. And no not all tennis experts regard Martina as the greatest ever. Many regard Graf. Not as many regard Court and Evert as they should, they are both underrated compared to Graf and Martina though.
1) THE OPEN ERA signifies among other things better reward payments for women to go full time playing tennis (turn professional) instead of playing tennis as a part-time job as AMATEURS.
2) Before the open era, most women are not willing to turn professional because of lack of money rewards, thus the level of play competition was lower due to lack of commitment from players.
@uuduu7 you are so stupid it is comical. Women did not have hardly any pro opportunities by the 60s when Court played anyway. Only in 20s-50s did on occasion the very best legendary pros (Lenglen or Gibson) turn pro after they had played many years as amateurs and were planning on retire anyway just to play some silly tour against one opponent. In the 60s all the people who were the best and important played amateur, and were the same people who played in the Open Era unlike the men.
Did Graf play doubles or she had the luxury of simply putting all her energy in singles ?
(Court-Martina all had stellar doubles records)
A no.1 ranking does not reflect a true picture of a player's prowess in tennis, more than that, it is statistics such as win-loss percentage, no. of career titles, number of long winning streaks, the quality of rivals, the amount of handicaps to overcome (such as playing in doubles too) ..
Graf can have 20 years year-end no.1s, but its hollow if she does not even match Evert's win-loss percentage or match Martina['s no. of career titles ..
And again just to educate you on the importance and implications of the arrival of the open era -
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Before the open era, players DO NOT PLAY OR TRAIN FULL TIME - the implication is that the level of physical toning, athleticism n finesse of tennis skill all suffer due to lack of full time concerntration on the game.
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Lots of players are also playing in different circuits so there is no single events which gathers all the top players in one event like the open era does.
Anyway, I think you idolised the wrong person in Graf.
When Seles was stabbed due to a fan of Graf, Graf only visited Seles once in the hospital, nothing before or after that. Graf even kept quiet when Seles' no. 1 ranking was suggested to be maintained till she returns or taken down during absence - only Sabatini spoke out to maintain Seles' ranking. Graf did not even gave encouragement to Seles to come back to tennis when Seles had trepidation about returning..
what you say is totally false, unfair and evil, and proves you don't know anything about Steffi nor about all that she did after the stabbing.
She was totally devastated afer the attack (don't forget she lost the final to ASV in just straight sets). In many interviews, she confessed how guilty she felt for what happened.
And during the 93 summer, she made many attempts to reach Monica. But Without success. Monica never replied anyway.
That's why I was mostly ashamed by Seles public assertions, during her (ideally scheduled) press conference of the 'Arthur Ashe' day, at the 93 US Open (by which she wore the T-shirt of her main sponsor of that time - just by fortune ?).
She was bold enough to accuse Steffi of 'not having attempted to contact her at all, all the summer long' !!.
Either it was a lie, either someone blocked any communication between Steffi and Monica.
Beyond her glittering grand slam titles, its hard to see Graf as a compassionate fellow human being .. until she married Agassi. Marrying Agassi is the only good thing she did as it is Agassi who changed her, without Agassi I wonder if she would even attend those charity exhibition matches..
What you say there removes all credit from your points.
I know personnally Steffi Graf (through her aunt), and I can tell you she's a most nice, kind, compassionate and human person. I could quote you a (very) long list of teh most noble and heartful actions she achieved for poor, lonely, sick or suffering persons - without mentioning young children.
She started her charity "Children for Tomorow" long before meeting Agassi, you know
.. plus, a person's ties with any charity foundation is not always reflective of who they are in their private lives. Graf merely made the call to Seles to come back to tennis after knowing there are already whispers among pple of how she has shown herself to be completely lack of any show of kindness to Seles after stabbing.
It would not be difficult for Graf to contact Seles at all, a get well card, a bouquet of flowers were non-existent from Graf..
Thats a childish thing to say.. why do Graf's fans often talk like this ? McClernand, Grafgirl27 etc..
I'm not a Seles fan per se, I'm not crazy about wanting to rank her as the greatest like u guys. BUT I do admire her character, her heavy involvement with her current humanitarian work, her great attitude of not taking the tennis competition too personally, her friendly disposition. She lost her confidence, lost her dominance in tennis but she became a great human being..
Steffi acknowledged Seles and her fate in almost every press conference (there was no escaping); forgot her only in the FO 93 victory speech (how terrible!).
She tried several times to contact her but Seles's agency wouldn't reveal her whereabouts. The Seleses obviously didn't want it. Later Karoly Seles insulted Steffi by criticising her for continuing to play and for being a "knife #1". Classless.
Graf did not ever made any sincere effort , a letter would suffice to melt Seles' heart. A letter simply can be passed through Seles' agent , silly, even a tennis fan knows that. If Graf had SPOKEN OUT in support of keeping Seles' ranking like Sabatini did, it wld go a long way in letting us know her stance. Instead she depends on little giddy fans like you to defend her, weak ..
and if Steffi didn't vote for Seles' ranking (and neither did Navratilova, by the way...), it was just because the Seles family didn't want to give any news nor schedule.
How could the WTA have frozen her # 1 world place without the least info about her plans ? and this during two years ?
About Martina Navratilova, she has given back to tennis way more than most players. She was heading WTA, involved in a dozen humanitarian works, fights for human rights etc. To all those who say she is a b***, at least she is someone who has contributed greatly to the humane causes. I think she has every right to think she has achieved more in tennis than pple like Graf or Courts etc..
Graf could have have had 22singles slams if she played doubles or faced Seles, fact.
Graf COULD NOT have had 22 singles slams if she diverted energy playing doubles and mixed doubles, or faced a healthy Seles in slam finals, FACT.
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It is sad that most pple fail to appreciate how astounding Martina Navratilova's achievements are, how extremely difficult it is to win EVERYTHING in women's tennis (singles plus double plus mixed doubles), to string together world record win-streaks in SINGLES<DOUBLES<MIXED DOUBLES, streaks which are unbeaten till today.
Navratilova prefered doubles as exercise, Steffi prefered to play with male hitting partners. To do both was not possible anymore post 1992 considering how Steffi had to scale back her exercise hours because of her back and knee injuries.
Graf is simply not physically strong and resilient enough to play 3 disciplines at one go, not to mention 2. She can nver hope to emulate Martina's accomplishments, but the same can be said about everyone one else except perhaps Court who is a close second.
Now, back to tennis.. I think u are quite demeaning to the thousands of professional doubles and mixed doubles players throughout history.
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Most top singles players fail in their occasional forays into doubles simply becos they dont spend enough time training in it. For Martina to play singles and still win tons of doubles/mixed, she MUST spend tons of hours practising with her partner.
They are playing against other professionals who specialise exclusively on it !
Navratilova talks a lot, a person who always needs the attention of others.
Obviously being the GOAT is extremely important for her.
Steffi "gave back" by drawing millions of new fans to women's tennis, people who had ignored or ridiculed it before. During her career she was almost always the most popular female tennis player world-wide (only Sabatini came close in the early 90s). And her humanitarian work (plus financial contributions) is second to none in the sports world.
Please, obviously u r embellishing Graf's few little contributions here and there. And its not even a personal effort, its got Agassi's hand in there too. Go read on Martina's long list of resume. Martina was already leading the WTA since her playing days and she has branched out into a dozen causes, making frequent TV appearances, interviews, speaking up in rallies, fund-raising etc.
You seem to ignore everything I said about how easy it is to start a charity by a rich sports star who have helpers and minders. Anyway, I remember her dad was sort of involved in tax evasion or something like that during those days of late 80s, and pple involved in tax scandals often try to appeal for the judges' sympathy by setting up charities and donating a portion of their earnings .
OK, I apologise for quoting the tax scandal, its wrong to baselessly link the charity as a coverup for the evasion of 1988's earnings. BUT u are ignoring my point that Graf has helpers and minders to set up the charity. Spending weeks out of a whole year towards your charity is nothing compared to Martina who makes it a career, a day-to-day operation, on top of givng back to tennis by being a tennis commentator and appearing in tennis exhibition matches way more than Graf.
Well, if u don't believe Martina made her pet causes a career, follow her news. This year, fighting breast cancer, she became a spokesperson for a cancer campaign, now she is preparing to lead an expedition to climb Mt Kilimanjaro (actual climb at end of year) to raise funds for the Laureus charity.
A woman who just recovered from fighting breast cancer is busy with 2 new charity events while overseeing a dozen other on-going foundations, she lives life to the fullest.
BTW, at her ripe old age, its a rather dangerous mountain climb. Every year around 10 people dies during climbing Kilimanjaro due to extreme low temperatures, violent winds, low oxygen and altitude sickness, not counting locals dying. How many pple are willing to risk dying for charity ?
OK, I've always tried to ignore onlookers who loves to rudely interrupt other people's involved conversations. Our arguments should not have anything to do with uninterested parties. So buzz off to selesfan, lets ignore selesfan.
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I like to implore u to watch some utube videos of Martina, some of those videos mention that she is promoting youth tennis, charity causes etc..
"I said about how easy it is to start a charity by a rich sports star who have helpers and minders."
What you say is simply disgusting, petty and evil. And you accuse me of having no heart after this ?
Steffi mostly commits herself to her charity, going personnally to most hazardous places (like the townships of Capetown, or dangerous places of Kosovo or Eryhthrea or Algeria) and spending time with the children, playing with them, kissing and hugging them tenderly...
OK, I know Graf is catching up in her humanitarian efforts so I won't criticise her on that anymore, just don't make her up into more than what she is..
To me, aside from her lack of emotional empathy shown to Seles' stabbing, Graf's 22 slams and dominance is a midget compared to Martina's achievements, even if you fail to consider Martina's diversion of energy towards achieving all those all time win streaks in doubles and mixed.
Martina could have take it easy and put her name in 1 or 2 charity causes and have helpers running it for her like Graf does. Her drive to head so many causes can only be due to her great passion towards the human causes, compassion and heart , she is someone I could genuinely look up to without reservations.
Graf is the front-woman of her charity which occupies her many weeks every year. She travels to Africa, the Balkans, everywhere. Plus she helps Agassi with his charities.
And she puts millions of euros/dollars into those charities every year.
OK, she is far richer than Navratilova, she still has many endorsements, is still in TV and magazine commercials every day (Mrs. Sporty, Teekanne, Danone, Rexona, Head, adidas, Genworth, Longines).
Please remember that Martina did not get much endorsements mainly because she is openly GAY AND PROUD OF IT . Any straight person who commands the same accomplishments as her would have gotten way more endorsement deals than Graf ever did ..
Comparisons of accomplishments across different generations of tennis greats CAN ONLY be made by analysing the repective context of each era's playing field and the difficulty level of each player's circumstances.
Martina probably would have had about 30 singles slams if she did not divert energy towards doubles. If Evert had been "stabbed", it wld be at least 40 singles slams.
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Luckily Evert wasn't stabbed as it wld have tainted Martina's singles accomplishments.. haha !
But she handled Seles in every phase of her career.
She leads her H2H before Seles became #1, when Seles was #1, and after Seles was #1. There is no surface on which Seles is ahead, be it grass, HC, indoor, clay.
I know its difficult for Graf fans to admit that their idol did not have a winning head-to-head during Seles' dominance from 1990-1993 and lost all slam encounters except wimbledon where Seles was forced not grunt. I know u hear me, so to drill this into u I will keep repeating it..
I know its difficult for Selestards to admit that their idol did not even have a winning head-to-head during her reign as #1 and wasn't able to win the biggest prize in tennis (Wimbledon).
Actually, early in their careers, Seles had a far superior record vs Steffi than Steffi did vs Martina or Chris.
After all, at 16, Graf had an abysmal 0-6 record vs Evert, and went 1-5 vs Martina. Seles at 16, in contrast, was 2-3 vs Steffi, and had almost immediate success against Steffi....
In fact, Seles initially went 0-3, but then 4-7, pre stabbing, and won 3 out of 4 Grand Slam finals vs Graf.
Seles' record/ performance was superior to Graf's comparatively.
Actually, WRONG. When Seles was stabbed, she had won more titles than Graf at exactly the same age to the day......
And more importantly, beaten GRAF 3 out of 4 GS Finals. Seles had a better record vs Steffi than Steff had against Martina or Chris at the same age, same juncture.
Graf was 2-7 against Martina who was in her late 20s.
When Martina's level went down as she entered the big 30yrs old, Graf immediately seized the opportunity to gain the upper hand with her youth. Do you think Graf could have won the calendar year slam playing against a 27 year old Martina or playing even a 17 year old Seles ?
Graf's fan keeps ignoring to note that the first 3 wins against Seles was during Seles' first tournaments as a 15yrold who had just turned pro only a couple of months. 4 Graf wins occured AFTER the stabbing.
That leaves a 4-3 (3-1 in slams) edge favouring Seles to be fair. Its a symbol of dominance of Seles over Graf - if a girl who has just turned pro merely 1 yr ago can overrun Graf in her prime, Seles could possibly rule over Graf once she reach her own prime in her 20s..
If Martina had saved energy by not playing doubles/mixed, she could have achieve a few calendar slams and swept the 4 majors frequently, sounds deafening to you isn't it.
Graf would have been chasing an impossible milestone given she could only get 22 singles even without Seles ..
"Please remember that Martina did not get much endorsements mainly because she is openly GAY AND PROUD OF IT . Any straight person who commands the same accomplishments as her would have gotten way more endorsement deals than Graf ever did .."
stop this paranoïac game, please. It has asbolutely no interest..
But you prove once again that the Graf haters are more than determined to bag Steffi at all costs, whatever she does, whatever she doesn't do, whatever she says and whatever she doesn't say.
When she (apparently) kept silent, they accused her of indifference. But when she did or said something for Seles, they accused her of hypocrisy with the same bitterness.
the only thing she could have done to impress them would have been to commit suicide, it seems.
Steffi didn't need at all to be changed by Agassi (or by anyone else). She was already a great enough person.
That's what brought Agassi (and so many other people) to admire and love her.
And she made a greater person of André, as he admits it himself in his biography.
Really, you'd better recognize you hate Graf and want to downgrade her at any cost (like a few poor embitters Seles fanatics, fortunately scarcer and scarcer). It will be clear, so.
(2) You are pretty steeped in your Graf worship to be so naive. Graf was a tennis star with helpers and agents by her side. Almost all rich celebrities and sports stars can start a charity foundation with their minders' help without themselves doing much. All you need is money and fame.
It is the amount of time and physical effort spent by a person which shows her dedication. If it is someone like Audrey Hepburn who spent most life in Africa, THATS HUMANITARIAN WORK
And lastly about the "balance" of grandslams across the 4 majors..
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Why did Martina only have 2 Frenchs?
TWO WORDS - CHRIS EVERT, the Greatest French Open player ever.
(Like how Federer was unlucky to face the greatest claycourter in Nadal)
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Martina reached French final no less than 6 times, Evert denied her 4 times, still she had a win over Evert once in the final, managing 2 crowns overall..
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Did Graf have to face any legend like Evert ever ?
@uuduu7 Evert did not beat Martina at the French 4 times. She did 3 times and one of those was the 75 French which was a joke as they were the only 2 top players who even showed. Try and get your facts straight.
And the clay court field Graf faced was overall the deepest ever with Seles, Sanchez, Sabatini, Pierce, Martinez. Martina faced Chris and Hana on clay, that ist. Martina is nowhere near the clay courter Graf is, imagine Graf in her prime losing to Horvath and Hanika at the French.
OK, Evert and Martina faced each other in French Open final 4 times, Evert winning 3. Know what ? All of Evert's 3 wins are in 3 sets. This suggests Martina's level of play was at least quite close to Evert's level.
Look at Graf, her biggest rival on clay was Seles, just bef Seles's stabbing, Graf lost twice to Seles at French finals, one of it in straight sets.
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Martina was 2nd only to the great Evert in French, like how Fed was 2nd only to Nadal.
@uuduu7 the fact you are actually trying to argue that Martina was as good a clay courter as Graf already erodes what little credability you might have ever had. If you want to look at it your way if Seles never existed Graf wins 8 French Opens, if Evert never exists Martina wins about 4, even with the clay court field Martina faces now an ultimate joke. So Martina is still way below. Graf in her prime on clay never lost at the French to people like Hanika or Horvath which prime Martina did.
The point of me mentioning Evert as a rival to Martina in French is not to say that Martina can have better records than Graf in French Open.
The point is to demonstrate that only had Seles who could challenge her but Seles was stabbed. Martina had to play Evert 4 times in the final. Obviously only winning 2 French does not reflect that Martina actually is second only to Evert at the French which prevents her from having a "well balanced" slam record.
@uuduu7 Seles played the 96 French and lost to Jana Novotna. Her own problem. Atleast she didnt lost to Kathy Horvath like a peak Martina did at the French Open though, LOL!
Steffi won only two FO in Seles'absence : the 93 and the 95 ones.
However, she captured the 96 FO, which Seles took part to.
And most of all, she also won the 99 FO, beating Seles in semi-final, while nobody would have bet the least jot on her chances (she wasn't even seeded, while Seles was seed # 3, and one of the big favourites).
Too bad for Graf, altho she benefited from the stabbing , she will forever be haunted by the suggestion that she would not have reached 22 slams without the stabbing ..
AND pls don't mention one more time about Arantxa, Sabatini, Pierce etc.
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Are you crazy ?
These women are pple DOMINATED by Graf (and Seles before her stabbing). They can never belong to the same tier as Martina-Evert-Court-Graf or Seles-pre-stabbing. YOu don't anyhow elevate their status just because u want to embellish graf's achievements.
Face it, Graf did not face any serious rival except for the short 2-3yrs Monica Seles prior to stabbing.
Navratilova of 1987-89 was better than Seles ever was.
At one point in 1989/90 Martina had a 70-3 win/loss streak. Her only losses came at the hand of - Steffi Graf. So Martina won 70 consecutive matches against players not named Graf.
Seles would never have been able to duplicate this.
@uuduu7 Try comparing Aranxta, Sabatini, Pierce to the people Martina faced on clay outside of Chris. Shriver, Jaeger, Kohle Kilsh, Sukova., hahaha. And you think I am crazy saying those people are strong oppostion. You are once again the crazy one.
You are dreaming, the importance of a serious rival legitimises a player's accomplishments because more often than not the rest of the fields are there mostly to make up the numbers. In every generations there will always be second-tiers like Arantxa who had a lopsided losing record against the dominant player, if there is just one, just one player like Evert who has the ability to win slams convincingly consistently, that makes Martina's achievements greater than Graf's.
Because Martina did not have the leisure of taking slams from second-tiers players, she have to earn it by beating the best of the best like Evert.
Imagine if Graf keeps facing Seles in Slam finals (she already have a losing record against Seles in Slam finals) , she would not have gotten even 16 or 17 slams..
Graf leads Seles in Slams 6-3 and overall 10-5. She most certainly could have won more than Martina's 18 facing Seles throughout her career in slams. Graf beat Navratilova, Evert, Seles, Hingis, or Sanchez in the final to win 14 of her 22 slams. Some 2nd rate opposition, LOL!. If you want to talk about players primes Evert was already past her prime when Martina finally began to dominate in 1983 so who cares. And there was nobody else by then other than that headcase Hana.
(1) Seles was a 15 year in 1989, the very first yr she became full time player. What is so great about Graf having 3 wins over a 15yrold Seles who had just turned professional and is in her first few tournaments? LOL! You are desperate !
But from the very next year 1990 till 1993 (stabbing), Seles had a 4-3 edge over Graf, and a 3-1 edge in Slams. Can you imagine a 16 yr old girl who only turned pro less than 1yr completely overtaking Graf ?
.. don't count the post-stabbing matches, its not gracious to expect a stabbing victim to be as good as before. Don't be a small person.
(2) Graf lost a long string of matches against Martina (at least 7-9 i think) before started winning when Martina was into ripe old 30s. LOL, Martina still won their last match and a couple in between.
Evert was already considering retiring when she began losing to Graf, no glory in Graf getting wins over legends who are in their 30s.
Hingis never became someone like Seles either, she stopped at a mere 5slams.
I said don't mention Arantxa. much as I admire her fighting spirit, Arantxa never was a threat to Seles or Graf.
(2) Being ranked no.1 can be rather hollow especially in Graf's case. Seles who took her no. 1 became stabbed by Graf's fan. Most of Graf's years as no.1 occurred after the stabbing, as did most of Graf's slams.
..Seles was on an estonishing trajectory. Seles was a player who became no. 1 only 1, ONE! year after turning pro ! Won every slam she entered except Wimby where she was forced not to grunt.
You think that Graf merely benefited 2 French Opens due to the stabbing ? So naive, Seles could be sweeping the US, Australian if going by her records in her prime. How many Slam did Graf get during Seles' domination ?
The title of the Greatest is justifiably withheld from Court due to part of her career existing bef the open era. In overal statistics, Aside fr total singles slams, Martina held a superior record in almost every other departments over Graf AND she had the extra handicap of playing also in the doubles.
Only Evert can rightfully challenge Martina becos Evert had the highest winning percentage over a longlasting career. HOWEVER, she lost the head-to-head against Martina.
@uuduu7 yes aside from Graf having much better record than Martina at 3 of the 4 slams, the 4 biggest events in tennis, having more weeks at #1, more consecutive weeks at #1, the Calender Slam, having a far more balanced record across all surfaces, having more years as the year end #1, having more years spending time at #1, having more time spent ranked in the top 2. Yep that is practically nothing. You are a joke.
SO, now u wish to switch from pronouncing Court to Graf as the greatest, pls make up your mind..
All u quoted of Graf's "accomplishments" are her no. 1 ranking - so shallow. A no. 1 rank is actually the least on most players' mind in terms of accomplishment. There are plenty of no.1 ranked players who had the ranking due to the non-existence of strong competitions.
Was Graf ranked no.1 when Seles was healthy ?
Was Graf's match win percentage better than Evert ?
@uuduu7 I am not pronoucing anyone as the undisputed greatest you fool. I am only telling you that you are wrong that Martina is that as well and your claim that virtually all Martina's stats are the best was full of crap as this is clearly not the case. Look at your with 20 posts in a row. You are a sad pathetic loser who has nothing to do but post on youtube to try and brainwash people to seeing your skewed point on something. I feel sorry for losers like you.
@uuduu7 How out of touch with reality you are once again. I listed Graf having done better than Martina at 3 of the 4 slams and having better #1 stats, amongst other things when you asked for what achievements she had over Martina. What are the most important things to a players career. Oh yeah winning slams
Graf got unlucky in 1987, so its was pay back time for the cry baby
leverwork1 1 month ago
nice mullet martina
leisurelydinner 8 months ago
enjoying the high quality play of this match and coming form an era when there was a distinction between the baseliner and serve volleyer.
memoir4you 8 months ago
Sure, moron, thats why you already ADMITTED to being McClernard and GrafGirl.......Your Quote was..."so what? I have many screen names. Doesn't everyone?...."
Ofcourse, after being humiliated, that you were "kidding"....
LOL...
..some Advice Hoffie, once you come out of the closet, you can't go back in....
artisking1 1 year ago
@artisking1
Why should I go into a closet, fag?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
HOffiEHOmo:
Here is the deal, Sissy......YOU ARE GAY. Stop calling everyone "Fag". You are clearly a closeted homosexual, and everyone here knows it. You have another screen name, "GrafGirl" and your homepage is dedicated to ....
..Women's Ice Skating.....LOL, LOL, LOL...
..I couldn't find someone more GAY if I tried, Sissy Mary.....
You are GAY,you are HUMILIATED, and you are projecting, Sissy...
...it's fine to be gay, it isn't fine to be a closet case.....
artisking1 1 year ago
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((((( Facebook.com/Steffi.Graf.Tribute )))))
SteffiGrafTribute 1 year ago
Legends!
Stier19812002 1 year ago
I believe you are the same person with the same screen name, but it isn't worth arguing.
Lets just agree to disagree.
artisking 1 year ago
How many volleys did Steffi hit in here? I've watched her go through a tournament without charging the net at all, I love it!
Flipboy5 1 year ago
Two great players playing top class tennis. Whatever happened to those days?! :(
Menexpert 1 year ago
@Menexpert
100% Agreed....women's tennis today is awful. Just awful. A poor product, with over-paid athletes.......
Serena is number one....and she had played less than eight tournaments all year. Wozniacki is sweet, but compared to Seles Graf Evert and Martina?
Yawn.
artisking 1 year ago
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@Menexpert
100% Agreed....women's tennis today is awful. Just awful. A poor product, with over-paid athletes.......
Serena is number one....and she had played less than eight tournaments all year. Wozniacki is sweet, but compared to Seles Graf Evert and Martina?
Yawn....
artisking 1 year ago
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@Menexpert
100% Agreed....women's tennis today is awful. Just awful. A poor product, with over-paid athletes.......
Serena is number one....and she had played less than eight tournaments all year. Wozniacki is sweet, but compared to Seles Graf Evert and Martina?
Yawn......
artisking 1 year ago
Jeez, Graf fans will never get over the fact that Seles so easily took away the number one ranking.
Its pathetic......Great match by to great champions. Great to see Martina fight and battle well into her thirties, not ducking the younger more powerful generation.
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking
We'll certainly not get over the fact Seles benefitted from the first scandal around Steffi's father to rob the 1st world place, that's for sure.
Had Steffi stopped her career then (and she wasn't far from taking such a decision at this time), you would still think Seles was better than Steffi.
By the way, when Seles announced her come back, Seteffi's father was suddenly put in jails, and Steffi herself happened to be under the threat of imprisonment.
Odd enough, no ?
McClernand2 1 year ago
Comment removed
artisking 1 year ago
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@McClernand2
You have too many screen names Hoffie. I don't like it. I will converse with ONE PERSON, ONE Screen name. This charade is bizarre, pretending to be different people with different screen names.
i have said my peace to you on another thread, so there isn't much more to say.
As for Graf, Martina and Seles, we will have to agree to disagree.
Let me leave you with this: THIS IS NOT LIFE OR DEATH. You have one opinion, I have another....
Enough said....
artisking 1 year ago
@McClernand2
You have too many screen names Hoffie. I don't like it. I will converse with ONE PERSON, ONE Screen name. This charade is bizarre, pretending to be different people with different screen names.
i have said my peace to you on another thread, so there isn't much more to say.
As for Graf, Martina and Seles, we will have to agree to disagree.
Let me leave you with this: THIS IS NOT LIFE OR DEATH. You have one opinion, I have another....
Enough said.....
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking
Very well said, artisking. I am glad we can at last reach this truce.
So let's shake hands (figuratively) and agree we disagree.
But, believe it or not, Hoffie and I are not the same person. By the way, you must have noticed our English is somewhat different.
I had to change from "Mc Clernand" to "Mc Clernand2", because I could no longer connect myself with the first screenname.
McClernand2 1 year ago
@McClernand2
What?
We are not the same person?
And GrafGirl is not us either?
You sure?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
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@McClernand2
You have too many screen names Hoffie. I don't like it. I will converse with ONE PERSON, ONE Screen name. This charade is bizarre, pretending to be different people with different screen names..
i have said my peace to you on another thread, so there isn't much more to say.
As for Graf, Martina and Seles, we will have to agree to disagree.
Let me leave you with this: THIS IS NOT LIFE OR DEATH. You have one opinion, I have another....
Enough said.....
artisking 1 year ago
Actually, she's so kind and tender towards these poor traumatized children that sometimes, they burst into tears when she has to leave.
I could even quote some overwhelming things she did for them, but Steffi's aunt pleased me to no repeat them, as Steffi definitely didn't do them to promote her public image, contrarily to what you might be tempted to insinuate
McClernand2 1 year ago
@McClernand2
We are in a discussion about whose achievements in tennis is more impressive, Graf or Martina. I give Martina the ultimate respect (while I still am impressed by Graf) due to her total dominance in all 3 disciplines of singles, doubles, mixed , all at the same time. The difficulty level of getting so many singles slams while splitting time and energy towards the other 2 disciplines is beyong imagination.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
and it's no reason either to discard Steffi as a champion. Even less as a person.
McClernand2 1 year ago
@McClernand2
And Martina had to contend with another 18 slam tennis great, 80 times they fought. She also has a myriad of other deep issues to deal with for example her escape from the Communist regime in Czeckoslovakia, her status as a lesbian player..
.. she overcame all these and more. Now, she spends most of her time carrying on her fight against for gay rights (even filing law suits), environmental issues, charities.
..
Martina IS the greatest person who ever played tennis, period.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
You are perfectly right to enhance Martina's record and personality, for they are indeed great. Nobody will dispute this (and certainly not Steffi herself).
Still, when you utter that she IS the greatest person who ever played tennis, that remains your (most respectable) personal opinion. Don't get angry if (many) others don't share it (and anyway, it doesn't mean they have no respect for Navratilova, far from it).
McClernand2 1 year ago
Give it a rest you 2 morons. Nobody gives a damn about your stupid agendas-
For uuduu7 rambling over the top Navratilova ass kissing and Graf bashing
For Hoffenheim rambling over the top Graf ass kissing
You are both losers for spamming this video with your retarded nonsense repeated 200 times over filled with your biases which nobody except yourselves will ever come to terms with.
selesfan30 1 year ago 2
@selesfan30
Well, thanks for religiously reading our over-the-top comments, I appreciate you wasting your precious time reading.
But don't u have better things to do ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@selesfan30
for one time, I agree with uuduu : this talk is our own business, so if you don't like it, just don't interfere in it.
But please don't criticize us too much to be Steffi or Martina fans : if you think your Seles (big) ass kissing is more mature...
McClernand2 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
To have admitted that Graf is a greater player than herself would have made Martina seem like a falsely humble person when everything shows Martina to be every bit a greater player than Graf ever was.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Steffi: Golden Grand Slam, 22 slams, each slam won at least 4 times, FO/Wim/USO treble won 4 times, 377 weeks as #1, 8 times #1 at year's end
Navratilova: 9 Wimbledons, 167 singles titles, tons of doubles or mixed doubles titles
Tough choice ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
uuduu7 clearly has a mental problem.
ants2876 1 year ago 18
@ants2876 For sure uuduu7 is retarded.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TAKE STEROIDS AND LIE ABOUT IT FOR YEARS. YOU GET CANCER.
Listman11 1 year ago
2 missed volleys in the first game! omg
tennisproderek 1 year ago
I was forgetting : Navratilova won 6 GS in a row on only 3 different surfaces (clay, grass and decoturf) whereas Steffi won 5 in succession on 4 different surfaces (rebound ace, clay, grass and decoturf)
McClernand2 1 year ago
@McClernand2
The surfaces are generically classified into hard, grass and clay. Trying to further subdivide each type into further types is neverending. Example, different types of clays and grasses and asphalts are played in almost every tennis tournaments.
..
SO, a player's mastery over all surface are generally considered to be at whatever available surfaces at that current time to be fair to that player.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
well, the Australian rebound ace and the American decoturf are clearly considered as two different surfaces.
Lendl himself emphasized it the very first time he played on Rebound Ace.
McClernand2 1 year ago
@McClernand2
SO, u cannot diminish Borg's achievements just because he used wood rackets. U cannot say McEnroa is better on carpet than McEnroa just because he's won so few carpet tournys (as very little tournys r played on carpet these days).
..
Martina did win 6 slams on all 3 generic surfaces, I think thats enough to prove her prowess over all surfaces. Are u also aware that she holds 3 of the 6 longest winning streaks of matches ever ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@McClernand2
Sorry, I meant to say McEnroe over Federer in the previous comment ..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@McClernand2
I think most pple think highly of Steffi becos she did not have a big rival before and after Seles , BUT I see Martina's rise out of Evert's great shadow as something even more impressive simply becos Evert was a giant , with a fearsome reputation . And to win a 6-slam-streak when Evert was still on the scene was incredible..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@McClernand2
Anyway, most tennis critics are split over who is greater, Steffi OR Martina - it really depends on which department of criteria u want ot emphasize...
..
If going by Steffi's dominance over her rivals, she's impressive BUT her rivals r obviously inconsistent players, stabbed pple and retiring greats.
..
Name a rival of Steffi that can be mentioned in the same breath as Chris Evert ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 Martina in 87-89 was atleast as good as Chris in 82-84.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
Martina had her golden years in 1983-84, after that it was a gradual decline.
Like I said before, Martina - Court - Graf - Evert each had deficiencies in their fine records.
Court probably did not have a chance to win on some surfaces as all her slams were won during and before 1973, but its not her fault.
Graf did not have a long-lasting strong adversary like Evert and Martina who had to face each other often. And she saved lots of energy by skipping doubles and mixed events.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 after 83-84 it was a gradual decline, LOL! In 85 and 86 Martina was nearly as dominant as 83 and 84. Of course a bit less only because Chris and Hana were playing much better, not because Martina was playing any worse. Chris and Martina did not really have their primes together. Chris's was 1974-1980 and Martina's 1982-1987 or so and the rest of the womens field while MArtina was on top sucked.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
Martina holds the record for total titles won in the open era.. Besides being the top singles player, she is also the greatest doubles female player ever. (check she has the career Grand Slam for singles/doubles/mixed doubles, total doubles title, longest winning streak ever in doubles)
Can u even imagine playing BOTH singles and doubles year after year for each 2-week slams , the extreme efforts ?
Can Steffi perform the same level in singles if she has to play doubles too ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 if Martina were the greatest female doubles player ever why did she have to play until she was 50 to finally reach/slightly surpass the doubles stats of Court in a far more competitive doubles era. And Martina is definitely not the greatest singles player ever. Court, Evert, and Graf all have better singles credentials overall than she has.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
1) I said half of Court's career was before the open era, tennis experts have to regard titles won before open era with an esterisk because of the barring of many players from playing in tournaments. Get it ?
..
2) Martina's world record number of singles career titles has never been disputed, its been quoted over and over again in tennis journals, I think u r hallucinating about Court's numbers ..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
1. This statement is stupid. The womens game was nothing like the mens in the pre Open era sense. All the best players were playing the "amateur" game. Once the Open Era began it was all the same top players as 1960-1967 when Court won her other slams.
2. The players that played before the Open Era dont have their title count accurately recorded. Laver, King, and many others won many more titles than they are listed as. Those who researched it say Court won over 200.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
3) Your precious Margaret Court is simply unfortunate to have started playing way before the open era, accept that ! All achievements before the open era, men or women are regarded with a question mark, get in touch with a tennis expert and stop making a fool of yrself .
4) I know that players frequently skipped Australian Opens. As for French Opens, Evert won it in 75, 79, 80 !
Where did u get that she skipped French from 75-80 ? Pls get yr facts right .
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 my precious Court, ROTFL!! I am not even a Court fan you fool, I am simply pointing out the facts. You are the one who is so blinded with your adoration with Martina you manipulate all the facts to make it that only she could be argued as the greatest ever which is far from the case.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
3) Pls keep in mind that half of Court's titles were won before open era.
..
4) U can look at a player's longevity in a positive or negative way. Martina's longevity shows that she's able to maintain her fitness and agility much longer than most players. Whether u r a late bloomer like Federer or a prodigy like Hingis, what matters is the cumulative numbers at the end of the career.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
5) you must be kidding about Martina's singles achievements. She owns 3 of the 6 longest winning streaks all time including the longest. If that is not historic I don't know what is. She used to skip slams such as Australian due to its relative less prestige during those days..
Most tennis experts regard Martina with a sense of awe, of course except for those ill-informed little ones..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 If you want to talk about what ifs Evert probably would have won about 25 slams if she played the French and Australian each year from 75-80. She was untouchable on clay then and usually the one to beat on grass. Chris was hurt by that WAY more than Martina. And no not all tennis experts regard Martina as the greatest ever. Many regard Graf. Not as many regard Court and Evert as they should, they are both underrated compared to Graf and Martina though.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
What don't you get ?
1) THE OPEN ERA signifies among other things better reward payments for women to go full time playing tennis (turn professional) instead of playing tennis as a part-time job as AMATEURS.
2) Before the open era, most women are not willing to turn professional because of lack of money rewards, thus the level of play competition was lower due to lack of commitment from players.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 you are so stupid it is comical. Women did not have hardly any pro opportunities by the 60s when Court played anyway. Only in 20s-50s did on occasion the very best legendary pros (Lenglen or Gibson) turn pro after they had played many years as amateurs and were planning on retire anyway just to play some silly tour against one opponent. In the 60s all the people who were the best and important played amateur, and were the same people who played in the Open Era unlike the men.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
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@grafgirl27
Did Graf have as many singles titles as Martina ?
Did Graf play doubles or she had the luxury of simply putting all her energy in singles ?
(Court-Martina all had stellar doubles records)
A no.1 ranking does not reflect a true picture of a player's prowess in tennis, more than that, it is statistics such as win-loss percentage, no. of career titles, number of long winning streaks, the quality of rivals, the amount of handicaps to overcome (such as playing in doubles too) ..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
And has Rod Laver as many single titles as Thomas Muster ?
No : 31 to 44
Does it make of Muster a greater champion than Laver ?
McClernand2 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@grafgirl27
Graf can have 20 years year-end no.1s, but its hollow if she does not even match Evert's win-loss percentage or match Martina['s no. of career titles ..
uuduu7 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@grafgirl27
And again just to educate you on the importance and implications of the arrival of the open era -
..
Before the open era, players DO NOT PLAY OR TRAIN FULL TIME - the implication is that the level of physical toning, athleticism n finesse of tennis skill all suffer due to lack of full time concerntration on the game.
..
Lots of players are also playing in different circuits so there is no single events which gathers all the top players in one event like the open era does.
uuduu7 1 year ago
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@grafgirl27
Anyway, I think you idolised the wrong person in Graf.
When Seles was stabbed due to a fan of Graf, Graf only visited Seles once in the hospital, nothing before or after that. Graf even kept quiet when Seles' no. 1 ranking was suggested to be maintained till she returns or taken down during absence - only Sabatini spoke out to maintain Seles' ranking. Graf did not even gave encouragement to Seles to come back to tennis when Seles had trepidation about returning..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
what you say is totally false, unfair and evil, and proves you don't know anything about Steffi nor about all that she did after the stabbing.
She was totally devastated afer the attack (don't forget she lost the final to ASV in just straight sets). In many interviews, she confessed how guilty she felt for what happened.
And during the 93 summer, she made many attempts to reach Monica. But Without success. Monica never replied anyway.
McClernand2 1 year ago
@uuduu7
That's why I was mostly ashamed by Seles public assertions, during her (ideally scheduled) press conference of the 'Arthur Ashe' day, at the 93 US Open (by which she wore the T-shirt of her main sponsor of that time - just by fortune ?).
She was bold enough to accuse Steffi of 'not having attempted to contact her at all, all the summer long' !!.
Either it was a lie, either someone blocked any communication between Steffi and Monica.
McClernand2 1 year ago
Répondre à cette vidéo...
Fortunately, Steffi eventually managed to get in touch with Monica in October 1993, and had a most friendly talk with her.
And at the 95 Lipton, Steffi claimed on, the mike : "Monica, if you hear me, please, come back !"
BTW, she had asserted she would be ready to share her n°1 ranking with Seles if she came back to the Tour.
If she didn't do after the attack, it was precisely because Seles refused to give the least info about it.
McClernand2 1 year ago
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@grafgirl27
Beyond her glittering grand slam titles, its hard to see Graf as a compassionate fellow human being .. until she married Agassi. Marrying Agassi is the only good thing she did as it is Agassi who changed her, without Agassi I wonder if she would even attend those charity exhibition matches..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
What you say there removes all credit from your points.
I know personnally Steffi Graf (through her aunt), and I can tell you she's a most nice, kind, compassionate and human person. I could quote you a (very) long list of teh most noble and heartful actions she achieved for poor, lonely, sick or suffering persons - without mentioning young children.
She started her charity "Children for Tomorow" long before meeting Agassi, you know
McClernand2 1 year ago
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@McClernand2
.. plus, a person's ties with any charity foundation is not always reflective of who they are in their private lives. Graf merely made the call to Seles to come back to tennis after knowing there are already whispers among pple of how she has shown herself to be completely lack of any show of kindness to Seles after stabbing.
It would not be difficult for Graf to contact Seles at all, a get well card, a bouquet of flowers were non-existent from Graf..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
You are a dumb liar.
That's why I don't like Seles - her fans mostly are idiots and losers.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago 7
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@Hoffenheim08
And yet you, a total whimp, have several screen names, and always run away when you caught lying.
LOL.
artisking 1 year ago
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@artisking
Which "several" screen names do I have in your opinion?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago 4
This comment has received too many negative votes show
@Hoffenheim08
Thats a childish thing to say.. why do Graf's fans often talk like this ? McClernand, Grafgirl27 etc..
I'm not a Seles fan per se, I'm not crazy about wanting to rank her as the greatest like u guys. BUT I do admire her character, her heavy involvement with her current humanitarian work, her great attitude of not taking the tennis competition too personally, her friendly disposition. She lost her confidence, lost her dominance in tennis but she became a great human being..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Because Graf fans are tired to hear those lies.
Steffi visited Seles in the hospital.
Steffi acknowledged Seles and her fate in almost every press conference (there was no escaping); forgot her only in the FO 93 victory speech (how terrible!).
She tried several times to contact her but Seles's agency wouldn't reveal her whereabouts. The Seleses obviously didn't want it. Later Karoly Seles insulted Steffi by criticising her for continuing to play and for being a "knife #1". Classless.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Graf did not ever made any sincere effort , a letter would suffice to melt Seles' heart. A letter simply can be passed through Seles' agent , silly, even a tennis fan knows that. If Graf had SPOKEN OUT in support of keeping Seles' ranking like Sabatini did, it wld go a long way in letting us know her stance. Instead she depends on little giddy fans like you to defend her, weak ..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Steffi wanted to call Seles by phone several times. The Seleses didn't want to speak to her. So that was that.
To freeze Seles ranking? For more than 2 years? Are you crazy?
Steffi was never asked about her opinion about that, though. And she didn't vote against it although many Selesian liars do suggest this.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@uuduu7
and if Steffi didn't vote for Seles' ranking (and neither did Navratilova, by the way...), it was just because the Seles family didn't want to give any news nor schedule.
How could the WTA have frozen her # 1 world place without the least info about her plans ? and this during two years ?
McClernand2 1 year ago
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@uuduu7
You said, for Seles :
"I'm not a Seles fan BUT I do admire her heavy involvement with her current humanitarian work"
Just before, you said for Steffi :
"a person's ties with any charity foundation is not always reflective of who they are in their private lives".
Two weights, two measures. As so often with Graf haters.
I am afraid your points have no value anymore at all.
McClernand2 1 year ago
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@Hoffenheim08
About Martina Navratilova, she has given back to tennis way more than most players. She was heading WTA, involved in a dozen humanitarian works, fights for human rights etc. To all those who say she is a b***, at least she is someone who has contributed greatly to the humane causes. I think she has every right to think she has achieved more in tennis than pple like Graf or Courts etc..
Graf could have have had 22singles slams if she played doubles or faced Seles, fact.
uuduu7 1 year ago
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@uuduu7
CORRECTION
Graf COULD NOT have had 22 singles slams if she diverted energy playing doubles and mixed doubles, or faced a healthy Seles in slam finals, FACT.
..
It is sad that most pple fail to appreciate how astounding Martina Navratilova's achievements are, how extremely difficult it is to win EVERYTHING in women's tennis (singles plus double plus mixed doubles), to string together world record win-streaks in SINGLES<DOUBLES<MIXED DOUBLES, streaks which are unbeaten till today.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Navratilova prefered doubles as exercise, Steffi prefered to play with male hitting partners. To do both was not possible anymore post 1992 considering how Steffi had to scale back her exercise hours because of her back and knee injuries.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Graf is simply not physically strong and resilient enough to play 3 disciplines at one go, not to mention 2. She can nver hope to emulate Martina's accomplishments, but the same can be said about everyone one else except perhaps Court who is a close second.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
LOL.
I don't think Steffi is losing sleep about Navratilova's mixed doubles titles.
As physical strong you may have to be for them ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Now, back to tennis.. I think u are quite demeaning to the thousands of professional doubles and mixed doubles players throughout history.
..
Most top singles players fail in their occasional forays into doubles simply becos they dont spend enough time training in it. For Martina to play singles and still win tons of doubles/mixed, she MUST spend tons of hours practising with her partner.
They are playing against other professionals who specialise exclusively on it !
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Steffi didn't practice a lot with Sabatini but won the Wimbledon doubles title with her in 1988.
The difference to Navratilova is that she didn't need the money.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago 2
@uuduu7
Navratilova talks a lot, a person who always needs the attention of others.
Obviously being the GOAT is extremely important for her.
Steffi "gave back" by drawing millions of new fans to women's tennis, people who had ignored or ridiculed it before. During her career she was almost always the most popular female tennis player world-wide (only Sabatini came close in the early 90s). And her humanitarian work (plus financial contributions) is second to none in the sports world.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Please, obviously u r embellishing Graf's few little contributions here and there. And its not even a personal effort, its got Agassi's hand in there too. Go read on Martina's long list of resume. Martina was already leading the WTA since her playing days and she has branched out into a dozen causes, making frequent TV appearances, interviews, speaking up in rallies, fund-raising etc.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Just google for "Children For Tommorrow". It was founded in 1998. Agassi has nothing to with it.
Yes, Navratilova is speaking up in rallies ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
You seem to ignore everything I said about how easy it is to start a charity by a rich sports star who have helpers and minders. Anyway, I remember her dad was sort of involved in tax evasion or something like that during those days of late 80s, and pple involved in tax scandals often try to appeal for the judges' sympathy by setting up charities and donating a portion of their earnings .
Who knows ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
The tax evasion scandal ended in spring 1997 with the conviction of Peter Graf.
Steffi founding "Children For Tomorrow" in 1998 has nothing to do with that.
She has put millions of her own money into this charity. She travels around the world for many weeks every year - for this charity.
To compare that with the usual PR charity stunts of you average sports star is insulting. Plain and simple.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
OK, I apologise for quoting the tax scandal, its wrong to baselessly link the charity as a coverup for the evasion of 1988's earnings. BUT u are ignoring my point that Graf has helpers and minders to set up the charity. Spending weeks out of a whole year towards your charity is nothing compared to Martina who makes it a career, a day-to-day operation, on top of givng back to tennis by being a tennis commentator and appearing in tennis exhibition matches way more than Graf.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Martina makes charity a career????? Links? Which international awards did she get for that?
"Giving back" by being a tennis commentator and appearing in tennis exhos?
She does that for free?
Or for money and being in the limelight?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago 3
@Hoffenheim08
Well, if u don't believe Martina made her pet causes a career, follow her news. This year, fighting breast cancer, she became a spokesperson for a cancer campaign, now she is preparing to lead an expedition to climb Mt Kilimanjaro (actual climb at end of year) to raise funds for the Laureus charity.
A woman who just recovered from fighting breast cancer is busy with 2 new charity events while overseeing a dozen other on-going foundations, she lives life to the fullest.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Being a "spokesperson" and climbing a hill in order "to raise funds" is very commendable.
But don't compare that with Steffi does with "Children For Tomorrow", please.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
BTW, at her ripe old age, its a rather dangerous mountain climb. Every year around 10 people dies during climbing Kilimanjaro due to extreme low temperatures, violent winds, low oxygen and altitude sickness, not counting locals dying. How many pple are willing to risk dying for charity ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Navratilova needs attention, we know this.
Didn't she take part in a british show called "I'm a celebrites - get me out of here"?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@uuduu7
and going to Erythrea or to the townships of Capetown, or to Kosovo, do you think it isn't dangerous ?...
McClernand2 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
OK, I've always tried to ignore onlookers who loves to rudely interrupt other people's involved conversations. Our arguments should not have anything to do with uninterested parties. So buzz off to selesfan, lets ignore selesfan.
..
I like to implore u to watch some utube videos of Martina, some of those videos mention that she is promoting youth tennis, charity causes etc..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
"I said about how easy it is to start a charity by a rich sports star who have helpers and minders."
What you say is simply disgusting, petty and evil. And you accuse me of having no heart after this ?
Steffi mostly commits herself to her charity, going personnally to most hazardous places (like the townships of Capetown, or dangerous places of Kosovo or Eryhthrea or Algeria) and spending time with the children, playing with them, kissing and hugging them tenderly...
McClernand2 1 year ago
Comment removed
McClernand2 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
OK, I know Graf is catching up in her humanitarian efforts so I won't criticise her on that anymore, just don't make her up into more than what she is..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
You don't get the "Prince of Asturias" Award for nothing.
And you aren't chosen as one of TIME Magazines "European Heroes" for nothing.
You simply do know nothing.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago 2
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@Hoffenheim08
To me, aside from her lack of emotional empathy shown to Seles' stabbing, Graf's 22 slams and dominance is a midget compared to Martina's achievements, even if you fail to consider Martina's diversion of energy towards achieving all those all time win streaks in doubles and mixed.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
What else "emotional empathy" did you expect from Steffi?
A tearful appearance on Oprah or some other shallow US-style PR stunt?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
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@Hoffenheim08
Martina could have take it easy and put her name in 1 or 2 charity causes and have helpers running it for her like Graf does. Her drive to head so many causes can only be due to her great passion towards the human causes, compassion and heart , she is someone I could genuinely look up to without reservations.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Graf is the front-woman of her charity which occupies her many weeks every year. She travels to Africa, the Balkans, everywhere. Plus she helps Agassi with his charities.
And she puts millions of euros/dollars into those charities every year.
OK, she is far richer than Navratilova, she still has many endorsements, is still in TV and magazine commercials every day (Mrs. Sporty, Teekanne, Danone, Rexona, Head, adidas, Genworth, Longines).
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Please remember that Martina did not get much endorsements mainly because she is openly GAY AND PROUD OF IT . Any straight person who commands the same accomplishments as her would have gotten way more endorsement deals than Graf ever did ..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Steffi is a real blonde and more beautiful.
And she is humble and appears very trustworthy.
A marketing dream.
If she were gay it would be much different.
People simply like her.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Comparisons of accomplishments across different generations of tennis greats CAN ONLY be made by analysing the repective context of each era's playing field and the difficulty level of each player's circumstances.
Martina probably would have had about 30 singles slams if she did not divert energy towards doubles. If Evert had been "stabbed", it wld be at least 40 singles slams.
..
Luckily Evert wasn't stabbed as it wld have tainted Martina's singles accomplishments.. haha !
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
LOL!
Which 12 singles slams did Navi due to the "energy" she wasted with doubles?
And which 10 singles slams did Evert deny her?
Navi can thank her lucky star that Steffi was not born 10 years earlier. I don't know which slam she would have won in the 80s ...
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago 2
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@Hoffenheim08
If Graf could not handle a pre-pubescent, healthy Seles, she can forget about handling a fit, young and healthy Martina.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Steffi never played a pre-pubescent Seles.
But she handled Seles in every phase of her career.
She leads her H2H before Seles became #1, when Seles was #1, and after Seles was #1. There is no surface on which Seles is ahead, be it grass, HC, indoor, clay.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago 3
@Hoffenheim08
I know its difficult for Graf fans to admit that their idol did not have a winning head-to-head during Seles' dominance from 1990-1993 and lost all slam encounters except wimbledon where Seles was forced not grunt. I know u hear me, so to drill this into u I will keep repeating it..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
I know its difficult for Selestards to admit that their idol did not even have a winning head-to-head during her reign as #1 and wasn't able to win the biggest prize in tennis (Wimbledon).
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Actually, early in their careers, Seles had a far superior record vs Steffi than Steffi did vs Martina or Chris.
After all, at 16, Graf had an abysmal 0-6 record vs Evert, and went 1-5 vs Martina. Seles at 16, in contrast, was 2-3 vs Steffi, and had almost immediate success against Steffi....
In fact, Seles initially went 0-3, but then 4-7, pre stabbing, and won 3 out of 4 Grand Slam finals vs Graf.
Seles' record/ performance was superior to Graf's comparatively.
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking
Hingis had 3 slams at age 16 against Seles's 1.
Graf had 21 slams at age 27 against Navratilova's 8.
Shows us how far superior Hingis & Graf were to Seles and Navratilova.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
but we arent talking about hingis and martina...
we were talking about graf and seles.....
and seles had the superior record, didn't she?
answer the question please......
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking
Steffi had won the Golden Grand Slam at Monica's age.
And she had had 75-2 and 72-3 win/loss seasons.
Plus a HUGE lead in the WTA rankings.
Sorry, but that means a superior record for Graf. By far.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Actually, WRONG. When Seles was stabbed, she had won more titles than Graf at exactly the same age to the day......
And more importantly, beaten GRAF 3 out of 4 GS Finals. Seles had a better record vs Steffi than Steff had against Martina or Chris at the same age, same juncture.
Do you dispute this?
artisking 1 year ago
@artisking
At the end of 1994 Sanchez had beaten Graf in 2 of 3 slam finals.
So?
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
We aren't talking about Sanchez Vicario. Stick to the facts.
Did Monica at 19, have a superior record to Steffi Graf at the same juncture? Who had the better record at 19, both being number one?
ANSWER THE QUESTION, PLEASE......
artisking 1 year ago
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@Hoffenheim08
Graf was 2-7 against Martina who was in her late 20s.
When Martina's level went down as she entered the big 30yrs old, Graf immediately seized the opportunity to gain the upper hand with her youth. Do you think Graf could have won the calendar year slam playing against a 27 year old Martina or playing even a 17 year old Seles ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
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@Hoffenheim08
Graf's fan keeps ignoring to note that the first 3 wins against Seles was during Seles' first tournaments as a 15yrold who had just turned pro only a couple of months. 4 Graf wins occured AFTER the stabbing.
That leaves a 4-3 (3-1 in slams) edge favouring Seles to be fair. Its a symbol of dominance of Seles over Graf - if a girl who has just turned pro merely 1 yr ago can overrun Graf in her prime, Seles could possibly rule over Graf once she reach her own prime in her 20s..
uuduu7 1 year ago
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@Hoffenheim08
If Martina had saved energy by not playing doubles/mixed, she could have achieve a few calendar slams and swept the 4 majors frequently, sounds deafening to you isn't it.
Graf would have been chasing an impossible milestone given she could only get 22 singles even without Seles ..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
you parano...
McClernand2 1 year ago
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@uuduu7
"Please remember that Martina did not get much endorsements mainly because she is openly GAY AND PROUD OF IT . Any straight person who commands the same accomplishments as her would have gotten way more endorsement deals than Graf ever did .."
stop this paranoïac game, please. It has asbolutely no interest..
McClernand2 1 year ago
@uuduu7
what do you know of it ?
She did tried to send her cards.
as for her call to Seles, she didn't need whispers : there had been consistenly such whispers practically since the day after tha attack itself.
McClernand2 1 year ago
But you prove once again that the Graf haters are more than determined to bag Steffi at all costs, whatever she does, whatever she doesn't do, whatever she says and whatever she doesn't say.
When she (apparently) kept silent, they accused her of indifference. But when she did or said something for Seles, they accused her of hypocrisy with the same bitterness.
the only thing she could have done to impress them would have been to commit suicide, it seems.
McClernand2 1 year ago
Steffi didn't need at all to be changed by Agassi (or by anyone else). She was already a great enough person.
That's what brought Agassi (and so many other people) to admire and love her.
And she made a greater person of André, as he admits it himself in his biography.
Really, you'd better recognize you hate Graf and want to downgrade her at any cost (like a few poor embitters Seles fanatics, fortunately scarcer and scarcer). It will be clear, so.
McClernand2 1 year ago
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@McClernand2
(2) You are pretty steeped in your Graf worship to be so naive. Graf was a tennis star with helpers and agents by her side. Almost all rich celebrities and sports stars can start a charity foundation with their minders' help without themselves doing much. All you need is money and fame.
It is the amount of time and physical effort spent by a person which shows her dedication. If it is someone like Audrey Hepburn who spent most life in Africa, THATS HUMANITARIAN WORK
uuduu7 1 year ago
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@grafgirl27
And lastly about the "balance" of grandslams across the 4 majors..
..
Why did Martina only have 2 Frenchs?
TWO WORDS - CHRIS EVERT, the Greatest French Open player ever.
(Like how Federer was unlucky to face the greatest claycourter in Nadal)
..
Martina reached French final no less than 6 times, Evert denied her 4 times, still she had a win over Evert once in the final, managing 2 crowns overall..
..
Did Graf have to face any legend like Evert ever ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 Evert did not beat Martina at the French 4 times. She did 3 times and one of those was the 75 French which was a joke as they were the only 2 top players who even showed. Try and get your facts straight.
And the clay court field Graf faced was overall the deepest ever with Seles, Sanchez, Sabatini, Pierce, Martinez. Martina faced Chris and Hana on clay, that ist. Martina is nowhere near the clay courter Graf is, imagine Graf in her prime losing to Horvath and Hanika at the French.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
OK, Evert and Martina faced each other in French Open final 4 times, Evert winning 3. Know what ? All of Evert's 3 wins are in 3 sets. This suggests Martina's level of play was at least quite close to Evert's level.
Look at Graf, her biggest rival on clay was Seles, just bef Seles's stabbing, Graf lost twice to Seles at French finals, one of it in straight sets.
..
Martina was 2nd only to the great Evert in French, like how Fed was 2nd only to Nadal.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
1990-92 was the same for Graf as 1980-82 for Navratilova.
Or 1993-2003 for Seles.
Slump time.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@uuduu7 the fact you are actually trying to argue that Martina was as good a clay courter as Graf already erodes what little credability you might have ever had. If you want to look at it your way if Seles never existed Graf wins 8 French Opens, if Evert never exists Martina wins about 4, even with the clay court field Martina faces now an ultimate joke. So Martina is still way below. Graf in her prime on clay never lost at the French to people like Hanika or Horvath which prime Martina did.
grafgirl27 1 year ago 3
@grafgirl27
During Seles's absence due to stabbing, Graf had the pleasure of winning 3 of the available 4 French .. during Seles' recovery from stabbing.
(The next strongest player Graf had to face in French was Arantxa, the same player whom Graf was already beating frequently on clay)
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
You meant 2 of the 3 availabe FOs. Seles played in 1996, lost to Novotna in the quarters, obviously due to a shoulder injury.
Steffi was one of the greatest clay-courters ever. Absolutely on par with Seles.
Her two losses at the FO against Seles were very, very close matches.
In the 1990 final Seles made only ONE point more than Steffi (74-73).
And the 1992 finals was won by Seles with 10-8 in the third set.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
The point of me mentioning Evert as a rival to Martina in French is not to say that Martina can have better records than Graf in French Open.
The point is to demonstrate that only had Seles who could challenge her but Seles was stabbed. Martina had to play Evert 4 times in the final. Obviously only winning 2 French does not reflect that Martina actually is second only to Evert at the French which prevents her from having a "well balanced" slam record.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 Seles played the 96 French and lost to Jana Novotna. Her own problem. Atleast she didnt lost to Kathy Horvath like a peak Martina did at the French Open though, LOL!
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Steffi won only two FO in Seles'absence : the 93 and the 95 ones.
However, she captured the 96 FO, which Seles took part to.
And most of all, she also won the 99 FO, beating Seles in semi-final, while nobody would have bet the least jot on her chances (she wasn't even seeded, while Seles was seed # 3, and one of the big favourites).
McClernand2 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
Too bad for Graf, altho she benefited from the stabbing , she will forever be haunted by the suggestion that she would not have reached 22 slams without the stabbing ..
Too bad..
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
That is not bad.
She would be the greatest ever even with 20 slams. Hey, most probably with 18!
Success, grace, beauty, personality, character, dedication - she had it all.
Easily the most loved female tennis player ever. Even today.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
AND pls don't mention one more time about Arantxa, Sabatini, Pierce etc.
..
Are you crazy ?
These women are pple DOMINATED by Graf (and Seles before her stabbing). They can never belong to the same tier as Martina-Evert-Court-Graf or Seles-pre-stabbing. YOu don't anyhow elevate their status just because u want to embellish graf's achievements.
Face it, Graf did not face any serious rival except for the short 2-3yrs Monica Seles prior to stabbing.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Navratilova of 1987-89 was better than Seles ever was.
At one point in 1989/90 Martina had a 70-3 win/loss streak. Her only losses came at the hand of - Steffi Graf. So Martina won 70 consecutive matches against players not named Graf.
Seles would never have been able to duplicate this.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@uuduu7 Try comparing Aranxta, Sabatini, Pierce to the people Martina faced on clay outside of Chris. Shriver, Jaeger, Kohle Kilsh, Sukova., hahaha. And you think I am crazy saying those people are strong oppostion. You are once again the crazy one.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
You are dreaming, the importance of a serious rival legitimises a player's accomplishments because more often than not the rest of the fields are there mostly to make up the numbers. In every generations there will always be second-tiers like Arantxa who had a lopsided losing record against the dominant player, if there is just one, just one player like Evert who has the ability to win slams convincingly consistently, that makes Martina's achievements greater than Graf's.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
Why ?
Because Martina did not have the leisure of taking slams from second-tiers players, she have to earn it by beating the best of the best like Evert.
Imagine if Graf keeps facing Seles in Slam finals (she already have a losing record against Seles in Slam finals) , she would not have gotten even 16 or 17 slams..
uuduu7 1 year ago
Graf leads Seles in Slams 6-3 and overall 10-5. She most certainly could have won more than Martina's 18 facing Seles throughout her career in slams. Graf beat Navratilova, Evert, Seles, Hingis, or Sanchez in the final to win 14 of her 22 slams. Some 2nd rate opposition, LOL!. If you want to talk about players primes Evert was already past her prime when Martina finally began to dominate in 1983 so who cares. And there was nobody else by then other than that headcase Hana.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
(1) Seles was a 15 year in 1989, the very first yr she became full time player. What is so great about Graf having 3 wins over a 15yrold Seles who had just turned professional and is in her first few tournaments? LOL! You are desperate !
But from the very next year 1990 till 1993 (stabbing), Seles had a 4-3 edge over Graf, and a 3-1 edge in Slams. Can you imagine a 16 yr old girl who only turned pro less than 1yr completely overtaking Graf ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
.. don't count the post-stabbing matches, its not gracious to expect a stabbing victim to be as good as before. Don't be a small person.
(2) Graf lost a long string of matches against Martina (at least 7-9 i think) before started winning when Martina was into ripe old 30s. LOL, Martina still won their last match and a couple in between.
Evert was already considering retiring when she began losing to Graf, no glory in Graf getting wins over legends who are in their 30s.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
..
Hingis never became someone like Seles either, she stopped at a mere 5slams.
I said don't mention Arantxa. much as I admire her fighting spirit, Arantxa never was a threat to Seles or Graf.
(2) Being ranked no.1 can be rather hollow especially in Graf's case. Seles who took her no. 1 became stabbed by Graf's fan. Most of Graf's years as no.1 occurred after the stabbing, as did most of Graf's slams.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
..Seles was on an estonishing trajectory. Seles was a player who became no. 1 only 1, ONE! year after turning pro ! Won every slam she entered except Wimby where she was forced not to grunt.
You think that Graf merely benefited 2 French Opens due to the stabbing ? So naive, Seles could be sweeping the US, Australian if going by her records in her prime. How many Slam did Graf get during Seles' domination ?
A lonely Wimbledon.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7
Navratilova lost only 3 times to Evert at Roland Garros - 1975, 1985, 1986.
And who can say for sure that she would not have lost those finals against another player as well.
Hoffenheim08 1 year ago
@Hoffenheim08
Of course u r right that Martina could have lost to another player at French final if its not Evert.
..
.. BUT her chances would have increased dramatically if the player is not Evert.
Think ..
Would u not agree that Federer would have at least added a couple more French Opens if the person he faced in the final was not Nadal ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@grafgirl27
The title of the Greatest is justifiably withheld from Court due to part of her career existing bef the open era. In overal statistics, Aside fr total singles slams, Martina held a superior record in almost every other departments over Graf AND she had the extra handicap of playing also in the doubles.
Only Evert can rightfully challenge Martina becos Evert had the highest winning percentage over a longlasting career. HOWEVER, she lost the head-to-head against Martina.
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 yes aside from Graf having much better record than Martina at 3 of the 4 slams, the 4 biggest events in tennis, having more weeks at #1, more consecutive weeks at #1, the Calender Slam, having a far more balanced record across all surfaces, having more years as the year end #1, having more years spending time at #1, having more time spent ranked in the top 2. Yep that is practically nothing. You are a joke.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
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@grafgirl27
SO, now u wish to switch from pronouncing Court to Graf as the greatest, pls make up your mind..
All u quoted of Graf's "accomplishments" are her no. 1 ranking - so shallow. A no. 1 rank is actually the least on most players' mind in terms of accomplishment. There are plenty of no.1 ranked players who had the ranking due to the non-existence of strong competitions.
Was Graf ranked no.1 when Seles was healthy ?
Was Graf's match win percentage better than Evert ?
uuduu7 1 year ago
@uuduu7 I am not pronoucing anyone as the undisputed greatest you fool. I am only telling you that you are wrong that Martina is that as well and your claim that virtually all Martina's stats are the best was full of crap as this is clearly not the case. Look at your with 20 posts in a row. You are a sad pathetic loser who has nothing to do but post on youtube to try and brainwash people to seeing your skewed point on something. I feel sorry for losers like you.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@uuduu7 How out of touch with reality you are once again. I listed Graf having done better than Martina at 3 of the 4 slams and having better #1 stats, amongst other things when you asked for what achievements she had over Martina. What are the most important things to a players career. Oh yeah winning slams