Im really inspired to what you have overcome !! It is the power of the holy spirit what you have done and what you are going to do with your ministry ! amen to that ! and God is doing great things through you . WOW !
Amen :-) thanks for these video's good on you for taking the time to make it and put it up. Many will be touched may God's abundant grace be with you brother. Only God can open Jw's minds to see the truth in Christ Jesus that is so awesome and sweet. But yesh yesh good on you once again. May God bless you Bro x
Im glad God found you and saved you. My friend is a JW and its so hard to get through to her. I love her dearly but all I can do now is pray that the holy spirit reveals the truth to her too.
I will like for you to read Matthew 4:6 where Satan said to Jesus IF you are the Son of God and then said HE will give his angels charge concerning you
the only correction is that you said Hebrews 1:3. it's Hebrews 1:2-3. the rest was right on! :) I couldn't find the last reference though...using the King James Version would strengthen your cause, I think.
The ending of John 1:1 and the word was God. Kai theos en ho logos. John 1:14 and the word was made flesh. So we do some simple math and it come out like this. Jesus = God. John 1:1 does not say a God, but was God
In Exodus 3:14, the Greek Septuagint Version(quoted by the apostles in the first century C.E.) reads, e·go ei·mi ho Ohn(I am the Being.) Which is quite different from the simple use of the words e·go ei·mi(I am) in John 8:58. The verb; ei·mi in John 8:58 was in the historical present since Jesus was speaking about himself in relation to Abrahams past. WHich translates as "I existed before Abraham was born
Secondly... Jesus could never have power over all(Almighty) since that clause was attribute to his Father who is unchanging. Though if he was, then his status would in turn make God a liar.
The statement in Matthew 28:18 states that Jesus was was "given" authority in heaven and on earth... Which raises the logical question... WHO had the power to give him this authority?
I can't believe you glossed passed this HUGE factor. This proves a very obvious issue. Jesus could not of been the Father(God) nor would he be the Almighty God either since the bible clearly stated there could be none like Him(God).
How can anyone apply the term Holy to anything that isn't in the bible? come on... anyone would pick-up such an obvious discrepancy. The Trinity doctrine is man made and therefor NOT holy.
you also state the men were trying to stone Jesus because he was claiming to be God but if we keep reading chapter 10:36 We read "do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am Gods Son? " does that say he claims to be God Himself or God's Son??
you also make it a main point that Jesus claims equality or glory. but Here we read in john 8:54 "Jesus answered: If I glorify(honor) myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God.
"peter says who has gone into heaven and is at gods right hand with angels authorities and powers in submission to him. so ALL things are in submission to him." - Brian Garcia
You have read 1 peter 3:22 correctly then at the end you add "ALL things". The scripture says angels,authorities,and powers. it does not say ALL angels ALL authorities and ALL powers. does it??
dud i am so proud of what you have don but here is another scripture that is in the NWT that has Jesus is Jehovah Psalms 110 verse 5. Jehovah himslelf sits at the righthand. God bless
I always go to Rev 1:17 ,18 and show them that the Alpha and Omega is speaking when He says'I was dead and I am alive forevermore."Then I ask when did Jehovah die?They still have this in their New World translation.After they read this they have no answer and as they run for the door they always promise to send an elder back,but they never come.
God the Father = Elohim. God the Son = Jesus Christ, Jehova, I am, and many other names...God the Holy Ghost. Three distinct personages ONE in purpose and perfect unity. Like Jesus Taught the apostles to be ONE. If you dont believe Jesus is God the Son then go speak to Doubting Thomas who after seeing him ressurected calls him: "My Lord, My God". Good day. good preaching son keep up the good work. I like the proof you provide.
Origin its interesting how LDS claim that the Father alone is Elohim, and that Jesus is alone is Jehovah. In the Hebrew Scriptures we see that when our Bible says "the LORD God" the Hebrew is "Ha Elohim Yahweh", Elohim is Jehovah. Jehovah is plural, and this one being of Jehovah is shared by Three distinct Persons within One eternal Godhead.(Gen 1:26-27, 3:22, 11:5-7, 19:24, Matt 28:18-19) Certainly though, Jesus is our Lord and God, praise and glory be to Him!
You provided excelent information. "Elohim" is a plural word for God. There is no actual reference in the bible to God the Father being Elohim. The only answer I can give you is that a modern day prophet has revealed that knowledge. I do not expect you to beleive it right of the back because that would mean that you would have to beleive in the idea of a modern day prophet which alot of people find hard ot beleive. But good job knowing all that stuff. Not too many ppl know as much.
If Jesus was The Almighty then he would not have had to RECEIVE it. But it was GIVING to him by GOD. In fact Jesus did not even resurrect himself for Gal 1:1 says "Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead, . Thank You
sounds like the LORD ALMIGHTY is going to do this. then look at colossians 1:15-16..Jesus made the earth and the stars..then if we look at Isaiah 44:24, Jehovah says He made all things with no help..mmmm...could we have 2 different god's claiming sole ownership..or is Jesus actually God? I wonder...note also...Jesus lived a sinless life so therefore He did not lie right? So then Jesus is actually God in human flesh....
Isa 9:6 A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace." Isa 9:7 His royal power will continue to grow; his kingdom will always be at peace. He will rule as King David's successor, basing his power on right and justice, from now until the end of time. The LORD Almighty is determined to do all this.
msm, you can keep listing misapplied scripture, that's not the point. My charge is that had someone studied the Bible from Gen to Rev following the hundreds of scriptures where nephesh/psyche is defined all these questions become non questions. Jesus used hyperbole but the rest of the Bible is clear so that's not a problem. People's hearts are the problem. BTW bethcha think 144,000 number in Reg is symbolic. Dontcha? We'll get real marks on our wrists and foreheads, but 144,000? 2 Peter 3:13
It occurs to me...my arguments, no matter how scriptural, don't convince you, because they contradict the teachings of the "God's sole method of communication to man," the Watchtower. The WT is the dispenser of spiritual nourishment, and we in "Christendom" are starving, so they say. You must consider what the WT truly is; enter "THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY A TRUE FALSE PROPHET" in the youtube search engine. Click on the first search result by MCO4HELP. We can continue our talk there.
2. As for scriptures on the state of the dead, here are 3: 2Cor 5:8. Absent with the body, present with the Lord.
Philippians 1:21. To live is Christ and to die is gain.
Revelation 6:9. Souls of the slain intercede for their brothers on earth.
You're probably talking about Ecc 9:5 and Psalm 115:7, among others to show that once you die, you have no consciousness. Those verses speak of the dead BODY in the grave, the ones I mentioned speak of the state of one's SOUL after death.
The soul is the Hebrew word nephesh. This word is hundreds of times in scriptures, so by reading those scriptures we get a clear definition. The Bible does not separate soul from body, but soul means "life" so it's more than the body, but inseperable from the body. Nowhere in the scriptures you mentioned is soul used. (greek, psyche). You are steeped in doctrine, that's all this is. And all your other questions are answered by "judgement durning the 1000 year reign." how about my questions?
5. Eternal punishment may not seem "fair" to us, but it is scriptural, and may we not engage in the sinful folly of telling the Author of Justice what is just or not. I'd like to ask any of you JWs: I'd still worship God if he annihilated people; for all the talk of how hell makes God a monster, would you still worship him if eternal torment was indeed the fate of the damned?
It makes absolutely no sense, you have to not think about it longer than thirty seconds. Thankfully I can still believe the bible because it does not teach that. You have a moral issue with ignoring the rest of the bible and demanding that this metaphor means something that it doesn't. So how about those other scriptures then? The HUNDREDS that shed light on what this means or doesn't? Oh yeah, that wouldn't interest you because the word of god is not something to be absorbed in. Shameful.
Why do you believe whatever your pastors tell you? I was not raised a witness, I studied. I collect Bible translations, and as a congregation we read the entire Bible (takes three years) and we have the 1 year schedule, so stop telling me what i do. I know what we do and you don't. And God burns people in a hellfire for eternity, right? You don't get to do the preaching work or use the Divine name because of lies like this, the trinity and you don't care about the truth regarding JW's either.
That was NOT the BIBLE. It was the NWT, a BOGUS `translation' by an UNQUALIFIED committee, the WT tried to keep secret. But ex-Governing Body member Ray Franz spilled the beans:
2]"The New World Translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the `New World Translation Committee.' Other members of that committee were Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder and George Gangas. FRED FRANZ, however, was the ONLY ONE WITH SUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE OF THE BIBLE LANGUAGES TO ATTEMPT TRANSLATION of this kind. He had STUDIED GREEK FOR TWO YEARS at the University of Cincinnati but was only SELF-TAUGHT IN HEBREW." (Franz, R., "Crisis of Conscience,"2002, p.56).
3] Read the story of Kevin Quick at w w w . kevinquick . com / kkministries / books / pilgrimage / 6 . h t m l. He was a JW engineer who finally decided to settle the matter of who was right, JWism or Christianity, once and for all. So he studied the Bible ALONE, without WT `guidance' in NON-JW translations, and WHILE HE WAS STILL A JW, he proved to himself that the Bible ITSELF teaches CHRISTIANITY'S doctrines. And so he left JWism and became a Christian.
"To sum up the findings of my study, historic evangelical CHRISTIANITY, NOT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, is indeed the one "true religion." The Watchtower Society is, far from being "God's clean organization," one of the "FALSE PROPHETS" that Jesus warned us of in Matthew chapter 24. Jehovah's Witness are, far from being the "only true Christians," yet another entry in the age-long list of MAN-MADE REBELLIONS against the true church of God .."
jedim- Why do YOU believe what your Watchtower leaders tell U? UR arrogant & pompuos.
MANY leave the WT/JWs for bibl,lical & non-biblical issues. Do some honest & open-minded study.
BTW, the Divine Name is NOT 'Jehovah', so U, UR WT & NWT perversion of the Bible all err. 'Jehovah' is an erroneous transliteration of Adonai & YHWH (THAT is the Divine Name)- YHWH). The better & closer/closest to it is YAHWEH.
Acts 1:8- Resurrected JESUS said "U shall be WITNESSES of ME". Witnesses of JESUS
JEDIMASTER- Why do YOU believe what your Watchtower leaders tell U? UR arrogant & pompuos.
MANY leave the WT/JWs for bibllical & non-biblical issues. Do some honest & open-minded study.
BTW, the Divine Name is NOT 'Jehovah', so U, UR WT & NWT perversion of the Bible all err. 'Jehovah' is an erroneous transliteration of Adonai & YHWH (THAT is the Divine Name)- YHWH). The better & closer/closest to it is YAHWEH.
Acts 1:8- Resurrected JESUS said "U shall be WITNESSES of ME". Witnesses of JESUS
The book of Revelations clearly shows Jesus is separate from God. "The Revelation which God gave him." The trinity teaches they are not two. Catholics made that up, but the rest of you refuse to accept that the Catholics in the fourth century were wrong for doing that. Jesus did not PRAY to himself when he was dying, My God My God why have you forsaken me? Be honest, people, you're clinging to doctrine instead of truth. That's why you're not allowed to carry the name or do the preaching work.
1] Here is PROOF that Jesus is YHWH who led the Israelites out of Egypt:
1Cor 10:1,4 NWT ".. our forefathers .. passed through the sea .. they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ."
Even "meant" above says that the rock mass meant CHRIST who led the Israelites out of Egypt. But the NWT's "meant" is a MISTRANSLATION. The Gk. is en which the KIT correctly translates "WAS": "the rock-mass but WAS the Christ .."
2] Jude 4-5 KIT "our ONLY master and Lord of us Jesus Christ .. THAT Lord people out of the earth of Egypt having saved ..
The oldest and best manuscripts have "JESUS" instead of "Lord" in v5. The ESV correctly renders it: ".. JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt .."
But even if it was "Lord" in v5, the previous verse 4 states that "our ONLY .. Lord" is JESUS CHRIST."
So Jesus IS YHWH of the Exodus. But then He CLAIMED He was by calling Himself "I AM" (Jn 8:58; Ex 3:14).
If YHWH is a tri-unity, i.e. the Father is YHWH (Dt 32:6; Isa 63:16; 64:8; Mal 1:6), the Son is YHWH (Jn 8:24; Rom 10:9; 1Cor 12:3; Php 2:11) and the Holy Spirit is YHWH (Lk 4:18; 2Cor 3:17).
Gn 19:24 and Ps 110:1,5 shows two YHWHs (the WT admits Ps 110:5 originally had YHWH at YHWH's right hand but the Jews amended it to Adon).
>Since this scripture is definitely talking about the coming Messiah, this does seem to say Jesus is YHWH!
1] >In John 14:28 Jesus says "the Father is greater than I".
The word "greater" in Jn 14:28 is meizon. It means greater in RANK or POSITION. E.g. there is no greater man than John the Baptist (Mt 11:11); the mustard seed grows to be the greatest among herbs (Mt 13:32); the disciples argued which of them is going to be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven (Mt 18:1). Each of these are greater BUT IN THE SAME CLASS: men, herbs, disciples.
Still no answer from JB7. Presumably because he realizes his category "the Son of GOD" IS INCLUDED in one of the ONLY 4 categories available: 1. fully God; 2. a lesser God; 3. an angel; or 4. only a man.
It is one of the evidences that Jesus IS fully God, and therefore that the Trinity is true, that those who claim that Jesus is NOT fully God, cannot give a satisfactory alternative explanation of who or what Jesus IS.
Ha ha, it's "confusing" because it's nonsense. That's why. It's a catholic teaching from the fourth century. Revelation clearly shows Jesus in heaven as a separate individual. And that's just the beginning of the matter. You people don't read your Bibles and you can't go door to door, because you don't have the truth. And I suppose God tortures people for ETERNITY also? That's another reason you don't get to use the name or do the work.
No. It's confusing TO YOU because the WT has MESSED WITH YOUR HEAD.
The WT has admitted that if a JW studies the Bible EXCLUSIVELY, he will come to believe CHRISTIANITY'S (NOT WT) doctrines:
".. there have arisen from AMONG THE RANKS OF JEHOVAH'S PEOPLE those who .. say that it is sufficient to READ THE BIBLE EXCLUSIVELY .. But .. through such .. they have reverted .. to the .. DOCTRINES .. CHRISTENDOM'S CLERGY .. TEACH.." (WT, 8/15/81, p.29).
How do you read Revelation 14:9-11 or REv 20:10 and conclude that the wicked are annihilated? Those verses seem to speak of conscious, eternal torment. I don't particularly like the doctrine of hell, but it is scriptural, and a faithful Christian must teach it.
You have to admit, those are purely symbolic scriptures. Yes, they mean something, but the language there is completely metaphorical. Vs 14 says this means the second DEATH. For the hellfire doc do be doused you have to look at hundreds of other scriptures to learn about the soul and what happens after death. Those scriptures are clear and not symbolic. If your whole doctrine rests on the book of Rev you better make SURE it's right. rev will not have some new exclusive teaching not found elsewhr
What are these verses representative of? How does receiving no rest from your torments and being tormented day and night forever and ever somehow symbolize being destroyed? Many of the metaphors in Rev make no sense literally, so they must be symbolic(7 heads, 10 horns). But these verses make sense literally. Why seek a metaphorical interpretation of them, other than it not jiving with annihilationist doctrine?
Are people really going to have marks on their foreheads? Why does everything get tossed into a lake that represents the second death? Why did you ignore the rest of my message? Just like you ignore the rest of the bible. The word hell is IN the bible, why don't you talk about one of those scriptures? Give me a scripture that describes our condition after death. They exist, and they're not symbolic ones. One: you dont know them or the bible, two you ignored that from the last post. u preach?
1. People may or may not have marks on their hands and foreheads, and death and hades are symbolically getting tossed in the lake of fire. That's metaphorical languange for saying that the wicked dead are thrown into the lake. But what happens when they are? Everlasting torment.
Also it's called the second death because that's an expression because it means it's an everlasting state of dying. See next post marked #2.
2. Jesus said in Matt 11:21-24 that the fate of Tyre and Sidon would be MORE TOLERABLE than that of Chorazin and Bethsaida. How is one state of non existence more tolerable than another? But one state of PUNISHMENT is definitely more tolerable than another!
He declared that it would be better for his betrayer (Judas) that he would never have been born(ie a state of non existence). If Judas' fate was annihilation, that's the same state as not having been born. See #3.
3. But if Judas was going off to be punished, the fate of not existing WOULD be more tolerable to him. Jesus was clearly saying that Judas would be facing punishment.
One other one; what would any reader of Jesus parable of LAzarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16 conclude in reading it other than that the Just dead recelve comfort with the God, and the Wicked go off to be tormented.
4. In 2 Peter 2:4, we find that the word "Tartaros" is translated "Hell", and this word is used only in this passage. This word literally means "to incarcerate in eternal torment:- to cast down to Hell". In context, THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY that this word can mean "the grave". There is, in fact, much evidence in the New Testament that Hell is a literal place, where those who reject Jesus Christ as Saviour will go.
"I'm a pharmacist?" Um, I know a JW pharmacist, she's a Christian FIRST, that's our identity and preaching is a requirement. The parable of Lazarus has quite a bit of hyperbole that can't be literal. And again, this is a state of judgment. It can't translate to ETERNAL torment after death because one, we only live 70-100 years in a land of chaos, but two there are many many scriptures in the bible that are clear about the condition of the dead. Judgment period is 1,000 years we think.
I thought you were asking me if I was a Preacher, you know, a pastor. First and foremost, I am a Christian, born again by the grace of God. I have prayed for and spoken to the sick in hospitals, so, yes I have preached before in that sense. See next Hebrews 10:29-31. See #2
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God..."Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This seems to be a warning of punishment as a consequence of judgement, not annihilation.
3. in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those(B) who do not know God and on those who(C) do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the punishment of(D) eternal destruction,(E) away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
you said your self "eternal destruction" Gee, this is a pretty important teaching here. Why didn't God mention this to Adam and Eve? Or the Isrealites? Moses? ANYONE? In the sermon on the mount? To believe this you have to 1. Ignore the bible in its entirety and the many scriptures that talk about the condition of the dead and that soul can be destroyed in hell. 2. Have a wicked heart and no common sense, not just about the cruelty but about the realities of existence now under Satan's system.
Eternal destruction, meaning being destroyed without it ever being completed, ie, tormented day and night forever and ever. And the prophets did warn of hell in the OT:
I'm not saying the souls of the damend are tormented in the lake of fire after they die, they are awaiting their final judgement in the abode of the dead.
And please, let's just exchange ideas without ad hominem attacks, saying I have a wicked heart and don't know the bible.
Someone that ignores the Bible and the healing that it accomplishes teaching others that God creates people to live in imperfection with free will only to torture them without end is a charge against God that thankfully is not in the Bible. For someone to have the heart condition to see what you see in scripture, unless you move forward and learn about the other scriptues that shed light and clear God's name, you quality for the scriptural adhom Offspring of viper.You smear the truth for others
So Daniel is a good example of how at death we are sleeping. The ones who awake to contempt are being judged during the thousand reign, and their death will be everlasting. DEATH is everlasting with no further hope of life. The contempt is from God, he can hold someone in contempt whether they are alive or dead. He has no interest in torturing creatures he gave life to. Open your heart and stop slandering God like this. Think about eternity and well THINK. Eternity never ends, why pain?
Romans says you're acquitted of sin at death. Yes, so during judgment, that's one thing, but if you're given the death penalty after that judgment, you DIE. This is plain in scripture if you're not heavily indoctrinated and read the whole bible. Also, people did not ask to be born and were given free will and the whole world is ruled by the devil. It's religiously pious people who now "Have their reward in full" so what will happen to those who have already been rewarded? Hellfire?That's nuts.
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, WHERE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. (emphasis mine)
There can't be weeping and teeth gnashing if you've been wiped from existence.
Well the religiously pious that have their reward in full will be there. Why is this not in the Bible anywhere else, and why do you ignore the rest of the Bible? The furnace is metaphorical for judgment and has nothing to do with death. Once they get the death sentence they die. What about when Jesus said the soul could be killed in hell? And the myriads of other scriptures you're ignoring? Can you give me one scripture that says clearly the condition of the dead? They exist, do you know one?
Kill the soul in hell? I thought it was destroy it in hell, and in the context of everything else said about it, it means everlasting destruction, where torment and destruction does not end. You still haven't explained the wailing and teeth gnashing. See 2
Praise God for his Word that can truly change even the thinkings of the heart!
What should be noted is what Jesus DID NOT say in John 14:28. He DID NOT say that the Father was "Better" then the Son, as is the contrast between Christ and the angels in Hebrews 1. During the life of Christ, Jesus "made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant...And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself". If this is true, then the Father was indeed "greater" then the Son.
But after the self-humiliation of Christ, Jesus was "exalted him to the highest place" and now has"the name that is above every name".(Phil 2:6-11) That is why it was not until after the Lord was risen did he say "All authority in Heaven and on Earth has been given me"(Matthew 28:18), which is the definition of the word Almighty. Just as a husband is "greater" then his wife, that does not make him better, or his wife anyless a Human. Jesus likewise is no lesser God then his Father.(Col 2:9)
Sure thing my friend, sleep on it and pray on it. Dont listen to me, dont listen to Senojes, but listen to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, let him be your guide to all truth. We will continue this tomorrow, Goodnight and God bless.
I happen to believe that in Hebrews 1:8 by the Father adressing Christ as God, he is acknowledging Jesus as his equal and co-occupent of His Throne. Submissiveness does not necesarily mean he is any lower in nature to the Father. As Col 2:9 clearly debunks the idea. I dont think I we need to see the Father himself worship Jesus to prove he is God, by the fact that he is worshiped at all proves he is God. You should take a look at Zechariah 2:10-11; 12:10; 14:3-5. Jesus is clearly YHWH.
But my friend, Yes Jesus has a God, the Father, but even the Father calls the Lord Jesus Christ God!
"But about the Son he(God the Father) says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."-Hebrews 1:8
By Jesus being the One and Only Son of God, he is claiming to be of the same nature as his God and Father. In Christ "all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"(Col 2:9). Jesus is God.(John 1:1,14.18)
>JW's .. the Trinity .. I seem to agree with them on
Since there are ONLY 4 categories available: 1. fully God; 2. a lesser God; 3. an angel; or 4. only a man; which of these 4 categories is Jesus in your view JB7?
2] And as already stated, Paul quotes Dt 6:4, the Jewish shema, in 1Cor 8:4 and then in 1Cor 8:6, he expands Dt 6:4 to give a CHRISTIAN shema: "yet FOR US .. there is but ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST .."
So again, Jesus IS Jehovah, come in the flesh.
And since "there is but ONE LORD" and He is "JESUS", those who deny that Jesus is Jehovah MUST deny that Jehovah is Lord!
1] >Matthew 24:36 .."concerning that day and hour nobody knows... ONLY THE FATHER." If Jesus was 100% GOD wouldn't he know this ..
This ignores that Jesus was BOTH God AND man, and in His human nature Jesus didn't know MANY things, e.g. Lk 2:52 says "Jesus GREW IN WISDOM" and Mk 5:31 says Jesus did not know who touched Him in a crowd.
2] There are MANY verses which say Jesus is God (Mt 1:23, Jn 1:1,18, 20:28, Acts 20:28, Rom 9:5; Php 2:6, Col 2:9, Tit 2:13, Heb 1:8, 2Pet 1:1, 1Jn 5:20).
The RIGHT approach is to not to PLAY ONE VERSE OFF AGAINST ANOTHER but to TRY TO SEE HOW BOTH CAN BE TRUE, i.e. Jesus IS God, AND on Earth He did not know many things, including the time of His return.
The Bible in 2Pet 3:16 WARNS that "IGNORANT and unstable people" CAN "distort ... the .. Scriptures" but "to their own DESTRUCTION."
1] >Deuteronomy 6:4 speaks about God being one God. .. how can he be 3?
The doctrine of the Trinity says that God is a tri-UNITY, 3-in-ONE.
The Heb. word 'echad "one" in Dt 6:4 can mean a COMPOUND UNITY. In the OT 'echad is used of the compound unity: "one flesh" of man and wife (Gn 2:24) ); "one people" of many persons (Gn 11:6); " one voice" of "the people" (Ex 24:3); "one cluster of grapes" (Num 13:23); "one stick" joined to "another stick" making a compound "one stick" (Eze 37:16-17).
2] The messianic Jewish Torah-Observant Followers of Yeshua CITE Dt 6:4 as PROOF that YHWH is a compound unity:
"Statements of Belief .. 2. YHWH [the LORD] is our Elohim. He is echad [One]. He alone is YHWH. Deuteronomy 6:4. 3. The nature of YHWH is a compound unity expressed in the aspects of Abba [God, the Father], Yeshua [Salvation, Jesus, the Son, Messiah] and the Ruach HaKodesh [the Holy Spirit/Breath] in this age. Matthew 28:19." [ h t t p : / / tiny url . com / pn7r5p ]
1] >Babylonians worshiped trinities and triad gods.
The Babylonian triads were THREE SEPARATE gods. They were not ONE GOD in three Persons, a tri-UNITY, as the Christian Triune God is.
The WT's claim the Christian Trinity is derived from Babylonian triads is SELF-EVIDENTLY FALSE and ABSURD.
Christians get their doctrine of the Trinity FROM THE BIBLE. Christian churches DON'T preach, run courses or write books PROMOTING BABYLONIAN RELIGION.
2] The WT has admitted if a JW reads the Bible EXCLUSIVELY he will come to believe Christianity's doctrines, which includes the Trinity:
".. there have arisen from AMONG THE RANKS OF JEHOVAH'S PEOPLE those who .. say that it is sufficient to READ THE BIBLE EXCLUSIVELY .. But .. through such `BIBLE READING,' they have reverted right back to the .. DOCTRINES .. CHRISTENDOM'S CLERGY .. TEACH.." (WT, 8/15/81, p.29).
And MESSIANIC JEWS who don't call themselves Christians accept the Trinity.
4] If JWs would ONLY THINK about the WT's claim that the Christian Trinity is derived from the Babylonian triads, they would realise how PATENTLY ABSURD it is, and how it EXPOSES the WT, yet again, as a FALSE TEACHER!
>please give your opinion on John 14:28 "the Father is greater than I"
You claim you are not a JW but ALL you post are JW-favourite proof-texts!
There is an old saying, `Don't believe what people SAY, believe what they DO.' And what you DO is what JW''s do. Also, like a JW, NO verses I cite make ANY DIFFERENCE to you. So I will continue to assume you ARE a JW engaging in `theocratic warfare.'
I have answered the JW's Jn 14:28 argument here under "Is Jesus Christ Michael the Archangel?"
>ive never heard the Trinity described from that point of view.
Since you are making THEOLOGICAL STATEMENTS about the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, what CHRISTIAN PRO-TRINITY books on the Trinity do you own/have read?
>yes the Son is of the same essence in a sense but not equal
Thanks for admitting that Jesus the Son of God shares "the SAME ESSENCE" and therefore GOD NATURE as the Father, and therefore Jesus is FULLY GOD, with the Father, but is FUNCTIONALLY SUBORDINATE to the Father, which IS what the Christian doctrine of the Trinity maintains.
>all we need to do is repent and have faith in Jesus
WHICH `Jesus' do you have faith in? It is possible to have faith in ANOTHER Jesus" (2Cor 11:4 KJV), a FALSE Christ (Mt 24:24).
If He is not FULLY God in the SAME sense as the Father is God, then your `Jesus' MUST be either: a) only a man; b) an angel or c) a lesser god. There are NO other categories.
So if YOUR Jesus is NOT FULLY GOD, in the SAME sense the Father is, WHICH of these three "ANOTHER Jesus" categories is YOUR `Jesus' ?
1]>since Jesus says he has a GOD in rev 3:12, would it make sense for GOD to have a GOD?
Verses like Jn 20:17; Rom 15:6; 2Cor 1:3; Rev 1:6; 3:12 which teach that the Father is in a UNIQUE sense the Son\'s God, are perfectly consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity which maintains the Son is the SAME ESSENCE as, but SUBORDINATE to, the Father.
As an analogy: "The son of a king may be OFFICIALLY SUBORDINATE and yet EQUAL IN NATURE to his father" (Wycliffe Bible Commentary, 1962, p.1257).
3] Here is another quote that may help to explain that Jesus being FULLY God is NOT inconsistent with Him being SUBORDINATE to the Father:
".. the Son is subject to the Father, and, the Son is equal with the Father, are both true. In one sense he is subject, in another sense he is equal. The son of a king may be the equal of his father in every attribute of his nature, though officially inferior. So the eternal Son of God may be coequal with the Father, though officially subordinate ..
4] The subordination, however, here spoken of .. is the OFFICIAL SUBORDINATION of the INCARNATE Son to God as God .. the subjection spoken of, is .. not of the Son as Son, but of the Son AS INCARNATE; and the SUBJECTION ITSELF IS OFFICIAL and therefore PERFECTLY CONSISTENT WITH EQUALITY OF NATURE." (Hodge, C., "First Corinthians,"1976, pp.333-334).
That is, because Jesus is God INCARNATE both God and MAN, apart from anything else, in His HUMAN nature, Jesus' worships the Father as His God.
See that was the annoyong and confusing part in the doctrine about trinity its like the greek gods they are all god but zeus was the higher or they chief and other was just subordinates..makin the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT as a subordinate of the makes them diff from the father..i have once read on the old testament when GOD proclaim israel that he is the only GOD and no other GOD should be worship except him..i dint remember the verse im not an expert but i know you have read it also
>.. that was the annoyong and confusing part in the doctrine about trinity its like the greek gods .. im not an expert
If you are not an expert then HOW do you KNOW that the Trinity is not true?
I AM an expert in the sense that, although I don't have a theological degree, I have been a Christian 40+ years and have read MANY books on the Trinity and EVERY Bible verse on it and understand how they ALL fit together, and I testify to you that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity IS true.
And again, the WT has admited that if a JWs reads the BIBLE EXCLUSIVELY they will come to believe CHRISTIANITY'S DOCTRINES (which includes the TRINITY):
".. there have arisen from AMONG THE RANKS OF JEHOVAH'S PEOPLE those who .. say that it is sufficient to READ THE BIBLE EXCLUSIVELY .. But .. through such `BIBLE READING,' they have reverted right back to the .. DOCTRINES .. CHRISTENDOM'S CLERGY .. TEACH.." (WT, 8/15/81, p.29).
We have had one who CLAIMED he was not a JW, but didn't say what he WAS, and he turned out to be a JW practicing "theocratic warfare." i.e. LYING for the WT.
So please state what you ARE, i.e. an ex-JW, a Christadelphian, a Oneness Pentecostal, etc.
If you are a NOTHING, who goes NOWHERE to worship God, there is no point me wasting time my scarce time on a DILETTANTE, whose views on God involve NO COMMITMENT and COST HIM NOTHING.
there is no such thing as trinity if you believe in the bible try to find that word there the apostles never teach that there is 3GOD get plss dont try to twist the truth by using the scriptures coz we all know that even satan know the scriptures..
>trinity if you believe in the bible try to find that word there
This is a STRAW MAN fallacy. No Christian theologian has EVER claimed that the WORD "trinity" is in the Bible.
If the lack of a WORD for a Bible TEACHING means that the teaching is wrong, then there is no WORD "Jehovah" in the Bible either, the correct English translation of the Heb. YHWH being YaHWeH .
The WT ADMITS that the WORD "Jehovah" was INVENTED by a catholic monk in 1270:
"...`Jehovah'.. combining the vowel signs of 'Adhonay' and 'Elohim' with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton .. provided the basis for the Latinized form `Jehova(h);' The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk .. in .. 1270." (WB&TS, "Aid to Bible Understanding," 1971, p.884).
The term "Jehovah's Witness" is not in the English Bible, not even in the NWT, but the word "Christian" is (Ac 11:26; 26:28; 1Pet 4:12).
So JWs are guilty of employing a DOUBLE-STANDARD in claiming it is an argument against the Bible TEACHING of the Trinity that the WORD "trinity" is not in the Bible.
Let me remind you that the bible is complete it self and the apostol paul give warning on revelation if im not mistaken that who ever add or omit any word from their writting ..will name be remove on the book of life ..so it means that the bible is enough to teach us what GOD want us to do other books come from pure taughts of men who think they know everything..no offense im just defending the bible cause its the word of GOD
>Let me remind you that the bible is complete it self
Agreed! And the TEACHING of the Trinity IS in the Bible (see the BIBLE verses I quoted here and also under Newagegamer's video, "Jesus as the Eternal Alpha & Omega, the I AM), even though the WORD "Trinity" is not in the Bible.
grantin without conceding that your words was right then who among the 3 in the trinity which you refer as one is much greater the FATHER THE SON OR THE HOLY SPIRIT this part really confuse me..some say they have the same diety then why JESUS praying to FATHER and the one who give the authority to JESUS CHRIST over everything was the FATHER
>who among the 3 in the trinity which you refer as one is much greater the FATHER THE SON OR THE HOLY SPIRIT
The word GREATER in Jn 14:28 does not mean BETTER. It means greater in POSITION. The Bible teaches (and so the doctrine of the Trinity states) that Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same GOD NATURE, but the Son and Holy Spirit are SUBORDINATE to the Father.
See my comments under Newagegamer's "Is Jesus Christ Michael the Archangel?" and "Why Jesus is the Eternal God Yahweh."
"4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is THE SAME SPIRIT; 5 and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is THE SAME LORD; 6 and there are varieties of operations, and yet it is THE SAME GOD who performs all the operations in all persons."
If you can't understand the TRUTH that JESUS IS GOD! this is why-
1 Corinthians 2:13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. )
Please receive the LORD JESUS in your heart!GOD BLESS YOU!!!
no read carefully you can use wikipedia as a source for links and yourown research, can you show me how i MISQUOTED the catholics, and how the catholics OF ALL churches can help your POV. you can go to wikipedia or google and search the links they provide, when the church themselves admit that the trinity wasnt practiced till 325 its prety damning evidence. sorry the texts you list dont contradict church testimony to the council in 325.
The problem with your argument is that the Early Christians DID believe in a Trinity. Irenaeus who lived almost 200 years BEFORE the Council of Nicea he wrote "Glory to the All-Holy Trinity and one Divinity: Father and Son and all-provident Holy Spirit, forever, Amen." Tertullian who lived in the 2nd Century said "The Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God". Sounds like the Trinity to me. You need to prove otherwise.
ok let me ake it CLEAR one last time im am NOT a JW i DO NOT OWN watchtower books, I didnt Misquote or copy anything under watchotwer books in anyway, it is comon knowledge that the 3rd century church adopted trinitarism you can use wiki or any search engine to do some simple research those who believe that the DEVIL changed actual evidence and historian proofs of fact are just blinding themselves from the truth, Belief cannot be reasoned with Fact however can.
How can you honestly claim such a thing and misquote the Catholic Encyclopedia and then totally ignore the testimony of the Early Church Fathers who were BEFORE 325 and believed in the deity of our Lord Jesus, and the Holy Trinity. Please, refute the Early Church Fathers who I quoted, the two I quoted where diciples of John and they believed Jesus was God.
And your gonna use Wikipedia as a source? Thats horrible, nowhere near scholarly. Please use actual REAL Fact.
Jesus reserrected himself. jn2: 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
jn10:17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.
Jesus resurrected himself.mindless insight due to the fact Jesus was put to death ! if he resurrected himself his death becomes void ! due to the fact he did not die fully and still able to come to life ! you need help with your understanding .
i believe it`s u who needs help with ur understanding.
what do u think Jesus ment when He said ...but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. in jn 10:17
according 2 who did His death become void if He resurrected Himself? the wts who has contradicted thier doctrine so may times that it become rediculous. where in the bible does it say it is void?
the bible(not the fallable wt mag) tells us that Jesus is ALMIGHTY God.
It's interesting that JW's are prepared to sweep aside the Scriptures which are used to show Jesus is God with the response "But it doesn't make any sense, it's not logical". Talk about "leaning on your own understanding". Is it surprising that the nature of being of the eternal Creator may be rather unusual and unfathomable when compared to the nature of humans or animals? Isn't it a a bit arrogant to insist God's being must conform to human logic if the Bible indicates otherwise in places?
we are made in God image, does this mean i hav three different beings in me that i can split into three different parts at the ame time but still have them be me?, If jesus was God who did jesus pray to?
if jesus was God on earth, then who was in heaven when jesus prayed??? clearly not God...if God was in heaven then Jesus could Not be God......it is illogical its a MAJOR hole in the trintiy
Im really inspired to what you have overcome !! It is the power of the holy spirit what you have done and what you are going to do with your ministry ! amen to that ! and God is doing great things through you . WOW !
funbylucy 2 weeks ago in playlist More videos from Newagegamer3018
Amen :-) thanks for these video's good on you for taking the time to make it and put it up. Many will be touched may God's abundant grace be with you brother. Only God can open Jw's minds to see the truth in Christ Jesus that is so awesome and sweet. But yesh yesh good on you once again. May God bless you Bro x
cedella212 3 weeks ago
Im glad God found you and saved you. My friend is a JW and its so hard to get through to her. I love her dearly but all I can do now is pray that the holy spirit reveals the truth to her too.
keanu2112 1 month ago
This video is excellent!!!!
Aristobulus789 2 months ago in playlist More videos from Newagegamer3018
paul says in philippians 2 -- that Jesus as God laid aside his glory .. and the power may have been something i laid as when he became a man, a slave
followerofjesus1984 4 months ago
Also you missed the most important part(circular reasoning).
WHO could ever give Jesus such power?
Come on... even a child could of latched onto this.
It's clear that Jesus was granted power by a higher authority.
Also, are you under the impression that God(the Father) is from this universe?
You have some serious issues to work through if you believe that.
Remember, Solomon himself said it best.
Even the heavens of the heavens cannot contain you.
God is not of this realm.
SmalltimR 9 months ago
lol @ the holy trinity.
I would love to hear where God ever vindicated the trinity as holy :)
SmalltimR 9 months ago
did you realize that Jesus did something when he was on this earth that no one ever did ? what was that ? he prayed to himself !! was he on drugs !!
niterider1914 1 year ago
I will like for you to read Matthew 4:6 where Satan said to Jesus IF you are the Son of God and then said HE will give his angels charge concerning you
Sheila
00sheilagreasley100 1 year ago
the only correction is that you said Hebrews 1:3. it's Hebrews 1:2-3. the rest was right on! :) I couldn't find the last reference though...using the King James Version would strengthen your cause, I think.
hawkemathew 1 year ago
The ending of John 1:1 and the word was God. Kai theos en ho logos. John 1:14 and the word was made flesh. So we do some simple math and it come out like this. Jesus = God. John 1:1 does not say a God, but was God
03fnfup 1 year ago
If Jesus isn't God then He is crazy. Jesus is not Crazy.
I made a video on Jesus claiming to be God
/watch?v=Mq-BkANbMcE
Itrytotestify 1 year ago
Before Abraham ever was, I Am
In Exodus 3:14, the Greek Septuagint Version(quoted by the apostles in the first century C.E.) reads, e·go ei·mi ho Ohn(I am the Being.) Which is quite different from the simple use of the words e·go ei·mi(I am) in John 8:58. The verb; ei·mi in John 8:58 was in the historical present since Jesus was speaking about himself in relation to Abrahams past. WHich translates as "I existed before Abraham was born
SmalltimR 1 year ago
Secondly... Jesus could never have power over all(Almighty) since that clause was attribute to his Father who is unchanging. Though if he was, then his status would in turn make God a liar.
It simply doesn't work.
SmalltimR 1 year ago
Wait a minute... pay attention.
The statement in Matthew 28:18 states that Jesus was was "given" authority in heaven and on earth... Which raises the logical question... WHO had the power to give him this authority?
I can't believe you glossed passed this HUGE factor. This proves a very obvious issue. Jesus could not of been the Father(God) nor would he be the Almighty God either since the bible clearly stated there could be none like Him(God).
SmalltimR 1 year ago
How can anyone apply the term Holy to anything that isn't in the bible? come on... anyone would pick-up such an obvious discrepancy. The Trinity doctrine is man made and therefor NOT holy.
SmalltimR 1 year ago
you also state the men were trying to stone Jesus because he was claiming to be God but if we keep reading chapter 10:36 We read "do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am Gods Son? " does that say he claims to be God Himself or God's Son??
JosiahB20 2 years ago
you also make it a main point that Jesus claims equality or glory. but Here we read in john 8:54 "Jesus answered: If I glorify(honor) myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God.
JosiahB20 2 years ago
"peter says who has gone into heaven and is at gods right hand with angels authorities and powers in submission to him. so ALL things are in submission to him." - Brian Garcia
You have read 1 peter 3:22 correctly then at the end you add "ALL things". The scripture says angels,authorities,and powers. it does not say ALL angels ALL authorities and ALL powers. does it??
JosiahB20 2 years ago
Ur Redaing NWT(No Wonder)....Get OUT OF HERE!!
Manny17Man 1 year ago
dud i am so proud of what you have don but here is another scripture that is in the NWT that has Jesus is Jehovah Psalms 110 verse 5. Jehovah himslelf sits at the righthand. God bless
mvicker 2 years ago
who did Jesus say he was sending as sheep amist wolves
g66ber 2 years ago
I always go to Rev 1:17 ,18 and show them that the Alpha and Omega is speaking when He says'I was dead and I am alive forevermore."Then I ask when did Jehovah die?They still have this in their New World translation.After they read this they have no answer and as they run for the door they always promise to send an elder back,but they never come.
CBALLEN 2 years ago
God the Father = Elohim. God the Son = Jesus Christ, Jehova, I am, and many other names...God the Holy Ghost. Three distinct personages ONE in purpose and perfect unity. Like Jesus Taught the apostles to be ONE. If you dont believe Jesus is God the Son then go speak to Doubting Thomas who after seeing him ressurected calls him: "My Lord, My God". Good day. good preaching son keep up the good work. I like the proof you provide.
Origin305 2 years ago
Origin its interesting how LDS claim that the Father alone is Elohim, and that Jesus is alone is Jehovah. In the Hebrew Scriptures we see that when our Bible says "the LORD God" the Hebrew is "Ha Elohim Yahweh", Elohim is Jehovah. Jehovah is plural, and this one being of Jehovah is shared by Three distinct Persons within One eternal Godhead.(Gen 1:26-27, 3:22, 11:5-7, 19:24, Matt 28:18-19) Certainly though, Jesus is our Lord and God, praise and glory be to Him!
Newagegamer3018 2 years ago
You provided excelent information. "Elohim" is a plural word for God. There is no actual reference in the bible to God the Father being Elohim. The only answer I can give you is that a modern day prophet has revealed that knowledge. I do not expect you to beleive it right of the back because that would mean that you would have to beleive in the idea of a modern day prophet which alot of people find hard ot beleive. But good job knowing all that stuff. Not too many ppl know as much.
Origin305 2 years ago
If Jesus was The Almighty then he would not have had to RECEIVE it. But it was GIVING to him by GOD. In fact Jesus did not even resurrect himself for Gal 1:1 says "Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead, . Thank You
stut9882iwxk 2 years ago
may God bless you as you continue telling the truth!
flowingtruly 2 years ago
sounds like the LORD ALMIGHTY is going to do this. then look at colossians 1:15-16..Jesus made the earth and the stars..then if we look at Isaiah 44:24, Jehovah says He made all things with no help..mmmm...could we have 2 different god's claiming sole ownership..or is Jesus actually God? I wonder...note also...Jesus lived a sinless life so therefore He did not lie right? So then Jesus is actually God in human flesh....
Psjustin 2 years ago
Isa 9:6 A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace." Isa 9:7 His royal power will continue to grow; his kingdom will always be at peace. He will rule as King David's successor, basing his power on right and justice, from now until the end of time. The LORD Almighty is determined to do all this.
Psjustin 2 years ago
msm, you can keep listing misapplied scripture, that's not the point. My charge is that had someone studied the Bible from Gen to Rev following the hundreds of scriptures where nephesh/psyche is defined all these questions become non questions. Jesus used hyperbole but the rest of the Bible is clear so that's not a problem. People's hearts are the problem. BTW bethcha think 144,000 number in Reg is symbolic. Dontcha? We'll get real marks on our wrists and foreheads, but 144,000? 2 Peter 3:13
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
It occurs to me...my arguments, no matter how scriptural, don't convince you, because they contradict the teachings of the "God's sole method of communication to man," the Watchtower. The WT is the dispenser of spiritual nourishment, and we in "Christendom" are starving, so they say. You must consider what the WT truly is; enter "THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY A TRUE FALSE PROPHET" in the youtube search engine. Click on the first search result by MCO4HELP. We can continue our talk there.
msm1876 2 years ago
3. Remember, Ecclesiastes 12:7 describes the state of one's spirit after death:
the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Death is NOT a state of nothingness. The Watchtower is wrong. This is, however, a tangential issue. The real issue is: Who is Jesus Christ to you?
msm1876 2 years ago
2. As for scriptures on the state of the dead, here are 3: 2Cor 5:8. Absent with the body, present with the Lord.
Philippians 1:21. To live is Christ and to die is gain.
Revelation 6:9. Souls of the slain intercede for their brothers on earth.
You're probably talking about Ecc 9:5 and Psalm 115:7, among others to show that once you die, you have no consciousness. Those verses speak of the dead BODY in the grave, the ones I mentioned speak of the state of one's SOUL after death.
msm1876 2 years ago
The soul is the Hebrew word nephesh. This word is hundreds of times in scriptures, so by reading those scriptures we get a clear definition. The Bible does not separate soul from body, but soul means "life" so it's more than the body, but inseperable from the body. Nowhere in the scriptures you mentioned is soul used. (greek, psyche). You are steeped in doctrine, that's all this is. And all your other questions are answered by "judgement durning the 1000 year reign." how about my questions?
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
5. Eternal punishment may not seem "fair" to us, but it is scriptural, and may we not engage in the sinful folly of telling the Author of Justice what is just or not. I'd like to ask any of you JWs: I'd still worship God if he annihilated people; for all the talk of how hell makes God a monster, would you still worship him if eternal torment was indeed the fate of the damned?
msm1876 2 years ago
It makes absolutely no sense, you have to not think about it longer than thirty seconds. Thankfully I can still believe the bible because it does not teach that. You have a moral issue with ignoring the rest of the bible and demanding that this metaphor means something that it doesn't. So how about those other scriptures then? The HUNDREDS that shed light on what this means or doesn't? Oh yeah, that wouldn't interest you because the word of god is not something to be absorbed in. Shameful.
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
dear sir, now that you arent a Jw no more, will you go to war?
Will you worship the idol of the cross?
How does your new faith interpret the words of Revelation? What is the Beast? What is the Harlot? What?
Sicerely, what do you think?
ThePowerfulRafi18 2 years ago
like you said authority was GIVEN to him obviously someone with higher power gave it to him
cervantes519 2 years ago
look up "given"
Necco34 2 years ago
Why do you believe whatever your pastors tell you? I was not raised a witness, I studied. I collect Bible translations, and as a congregation we read the entire Bible (takes three years) and we have the 1 year schedule, so stop telling me what i do. I know what we do and you don't. And God burns people in a hellfire for eternity, right? You don't get to do the preaching work or use the Divine name because of lies like this, the trinity and you don't care about the truth regarding JW's either.
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
>Why do you believe whatever your pastors tell you?
I DON'T. I believe what the BIBLE tells me.
And as the WT admitted (see previous quote), the BIBLE teaches the doctrines of CHRISTIANITY, not the WT.
Senojes 2 years ago
1] >as a congregation we read the entire Bible
That was NOT the BIBLE. It was the NWT, a BOGUS `translation' by an UNQUALIFIED committee, the WT tried to keep secret. But ex-Governing Body member Ray Franz spilled the beans:
Senojes 2 years ago
2]"The New World Translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the `New World Translation Committee.' Other members of that committee were Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder and George Gangas. FRED FRANZ, however, was the ONLY ONE WITH SUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE OF THE BIBLE LANGUAGES TO ATTEMPT TRANSLATION of this kind. He had STUDIED GREEK FOR TWO YEARS at the University of Cincinnati but was only SELF-TAUGHT IN HEBREW." (Franz, R., "Crisis of Conscience,"2002, p.56).
Senojes 2 years ago
3] Read the story of Kevin Quick at w w w . kevinquick . com / kkministries / books / pilgrimage / 6 . h t m l. He was a JW engineer who finally decided to settle the matter of who was right, JWism or Christianity, once and for all. So he studied the Bible ALONE, without WT `guidance' in NON-JW translations, and WHILE HE WAS STILL A JW, he proved to himself that the Bible ITSELF teaches CHRISTIANITY'S doctrines. And so he left JWism and became a Christian.
Senojes 2 years ago
4] Here is his conclusion:
"To sum up the findings of my study, historic evangelical CHRISTIANITY, NOT JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, is indeed the one "true religion." The Watchtower Society is, far from being "God's clean organization," one of the "FALSE PROPHETS" that Jesus warned us of in Matthew chapter 24. Jehovah's Witness are, far from being the "only true Christians," yet another entry in the age-long list of MAN-MADE REBELLIONS against the true church of God .."
The choice is yours.
Senojes 2 years ago
I came to my beliefs before I ever steped into a Church or talked to a Pastor. The Holy Spirit brought me to these truths.
Newagegamer3018 2 years ago
jedim- Why do YOU believe what your Watchtower leaders tell U? UR arrogant & pompuos.
MANY leave the WT/JWs for bibl,lical & non-biblical issues. Do some honest & open-minded study.
BTW, the Divine Name is NOT 'Jehovah', so U, UR WT & NWT perversion of the Bible all err. 'Jehovah' is an erroneous transliteration of Adonai & YHWH (THAT is the Divine Name)- YHWH). The better & closer/closest to it is YAHWEH.
Acts 1:8- Resurrected JESUS said "U shall be WITNESSES of ME". Witnesses of JESUS
harry4health 1 year ago
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JEDIMASTER- Why do YOU believe what your Watchtower leaders tell U? UR arrogant & pompuos.
MANY leave the WT/JWs for bibllical & non-biblical issues. Do some honest & open-minded study.
BTW, the Divine Name is NOT 'Jehovah', so U, UR WT & NWT perversion of the Bible all err. 'Jehovah' is an erroneous transliteration of Adonai & YHWH (THAT is the Divine Name)- YHWH). The better & closer/closest to it is YAHWEH.
Acts 1:8- Resurrected JESUS said "U shall be WITNESSES of ME". Witnesses of JESUS
harry4health 1 year ago
The book of Revelations clearly shows Jesus is separate from God. "The Revelation which God gave him." The trinity teaches they are not two. Catholics made that up, but the rest of you refuse to accept that the Catholics in the fourth century were wrong for doing that. Jesus did not PRAY to himself when he was dying, My God My God why have you forsaken me? Be honest, people, you're clinging to doctrine instead of truth. That's why you're not allowed to carry the name or do the preaching work.
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
I accidentally said "Revelations", sorry...that's a typo. I mean Revelation. :( Serves me right, actually because I laugh when other people do that
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
1] Here is PROOF that Jesus is YHWH who led the Israelites out of Egypt:
1Cor 10:1,4 NWT ".. our forefathers .. passed through the sea .. they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ."
Even "meant" above says that the rock mass meant CHRIST who led the Israelites out of Egypt. But the NWT's "meant" is a MISTRANSLATION. The Gk. is en which the KIT correctly translates "WAS": "the rock-mass but WAS the Christ .."
Senojes 2 years ago
2] Jude 4-5 KIT "our ONLY master and Lord of us Jesus Christ .. THAT Lord people out of the earth of Egypt having saved ..
The oldest and best manuscripts have "JESUS" instead of "Lord" in v5. The ESV correctly renders it: ".. JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt .."
But even if it was "Lord" in v5, the previous verse 4 states that "our ONLY .. Lord" is JESUS CHRIST."
So Jesus IS YHWH of the Exodus. But then He CLAIMED He was by calling Himself "I AM" (Jn 8:58; Ex 3:14).
Senojes 2 years ago
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>how could he have said "no man has ever seen GOD"??
It means God the FATHER.
In the OT some men DID see Jehovah:
Gn 12:7 And Jehovah appeared unto Abram,
Ex 33:11 And Jehovah spake unto Moses face to face
Isa 6:5 mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts
Jn 12:41 tells us that Jehovah whom Isaiah saw was JESUS.
That is what Jn 1:18 means. NO man has EVER seen God the FATHER. So when men in the OT saw Jehovah it was JESUS, God the SON whom they saw.
Senojes 2 years ago
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Senojes 2 years ago
>how could YHWH be sent by YHWH?
If YHWH is a tri-unity, i.e. the Father is YHWH (Dt 32:6; Isa 63:16; 64:8; Mal 1:6), the Son is YHWH (Jn 8:24; Rom 10:9; 1Cor 12:3; Php 2:11) and the Holy Spirit is YHWH (Lk 4:18; 2Cor 3:17).
Gn 19:24 and Ps 110:1,5 shows two YHWHs (the WT admits Ps 110:5 originally had YHWH at YHWH's right hand but the Jews amended it to Adon).
>Since this scripture is definitely talking about the coming Messiah, this does seem to say Jesus is YHWH!
Agreed!
Senojes 2 years ago
1] >In John 14:28 Jesus says "the Father is greater than I".
The word "greater" in Jn 14:28 is meizon. It means greater in RANK or POSITION. E.g. there is no greater man than John the Baptist (Mt 11:11); the mustard seed grows to be the greatest among herbs (Mt 13:32); the disciples argued which of them is going to be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven (Mt 18:1). Each of these are greater BUT IN THE SAME CLASS: men, herbs, disciples.
Senojes 2 years ago
2] Meizon does NOT mean BETTER, which is diaphero, e.g. man is "better" [diaphero] than birds (Mt 6:26); and sheep (Mt 12:12).
The Father is HIGHER IN RANK [meizon] than the Son, but He is not BETTER [diaphero] than the Son.
The Father is the same God NATURE as the Son, just as the disciples are all the same human NATURE. But humans and birds/sheep are NOT the same NATURE.
Senojes 2 years ago
>>ONLY 4 categories available: 1. fully God; 2. a lesser God; 3. an angel; or 4. only a man
>I do think there is another category which is, 5) the Son of GOD ..
So if, in your view, the Son of God is NOT: 1. fully God; 2. a lesser God; 3. an angel; or 4. only a man, then what IS he?
Senojes 2 years ago
No answer from JB7. I will put it another way.
If the Son of God is not: 1. fully God or 2. a lesser God, then he is NOT God or a god.
So what IS your Son of God JB7?
Senojes 2 years ago
Still no answer from JB7. Presumably because he realizes his category "the Son of GOD" IS INCLUDED in one of the ONLY 4 categories available: 1. fully God; 2. a lesser God; 3. an angel; or 4. only a man.
It is one of the evidences that Jesus IS fully God, and therefore that the Trinity is true, that those who claim that Jesus is NOT fully God, cannot give a satisfactory alternative explanation of who or what Jesus IS.
Senojes 2 years ago
Wow you need a lot of categories that the Bible doesn't provide, such a confusing non Biblical teaching.
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
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Senojes 2 years ago
>Wow you need a lot of categories that the Bible doesn't provide
WHICH "categories" do you mean? Did I not provide BIBLE verses to back up what I wrote?
>such a confusing non Biblical teaching
What do you find "confusing" about what I wrote? Are you a JW? If so, could it be "confusing" to you because the WT has made it so?
And WHAT do you find "non Biblical" about what I wrote and WHY?
Senojes 2 years ago
Ha ha, it's "confusing" because it's nonsense. That's why. It's a catholic teaching from the fourth century. Revelation clearly shows Jesus in heaven as a separate individual. And that's just the beginning of the matter. You people don't read your Bibles and you can't go door to door, because you don't have the truth. And I suppose God tortures people for ETERNITY also? That's another reason you don't get to use the name or do the work.
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
>it's "confusing" because it's nonsense
No. It's confusing TO YOU because the WT has MESSED WITH YOUR HEAD.
The WT has admitted that if a JW studies the Bible EXCLUSIVELY, he will come to believe CHRISTIANITY'S (NOT WT) doctrines:
".. there have arisen from AMONG THE RANKS OF JEHOVAH'S PEOPLE those who .. say that it is sufficient to READ THE BIBLE EXCLUSIVELY .. But .. through such .. they have reverted .. to the .. DOCTRINES .. CHRISTENDOM'S CLERGY .. TEACH.." (WT, 8/15/81, p.29).
Senojes 2 years ago
How do you read Revelation 14:9-11 or REv 20:10 and conclude that the wicked are annihilated? Those verses seem to speak of conscious, eternal torment. I don't particularly like the doctrine of hell, but it is scriptural, and a faithful Christian must teach it.
msm1876 2 years ago
You have to admit, those are purely symbolic scriptures. Yes, they mean something, but the language there is completely metaphorical. Vs 14 says this means the second DEATH. For the hellfire doc do be doused you have to look at hundreds of other scriptures to learn about the soul and what happens after death. Those scriptures are clear and not symbolic. If your whole doctrine rests on the book of Rev you better make SURE it's right. rev will not have some new exclusive teaching not found elsewhr
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
What are these verses representative of? How does receiving no rest from your torments and being tormented day and night forever and ever somehow symbolize being destroyed? Many of the metaphors in Rev make no sense literally, so they must be symbolic(7 heads, 10 horns). But these verses make sense literally. Why seek a metaphorical interpretation of them, other than it not jiving with annihilationist doctrine?
msm1876 2 years ago
Are people really going to have marks on their foreheads? Why does everything get tossed into a lake that represents the second death? Why did you ignore the rest of my message? Just like you ignore the rest of the bible. The word hell is IN the bible, why don't you talk about one of those scriptures? Give me a scripture that describes our condition after death. They exist, and they're not symbolic ones. One: you dont know them or the bible, two you ignored that from the last post. u preach?
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
1. People may or may not have marks on their hands and foreheads, and death and hades are symbolically getting tossed in the lake of fire. That's metaphorical languange for saying that the wicked dead are thrown into the lake. But what happens when they are? Everlasting torment.
Also it's called the second death because that's an expression because it means it's an everlasting state of dying. See next post marked #2.
msm1876 2 years ago
2. Jesus said in Matt 11:21-24 that the fate of Tyre and Sidon would be MORE TOLERABLE than that of Chorazin and Bethsaida. How is one state of non existence more tolerable than another? But one state of PUNISHMENT is definitely more tolerable than another!
He declared that it would be better for his betrayer (Judas) that he would never have been born(ie a state of non existence). If Judas' fate was annihilation, that's the same state as not having been born. See #3.
msm1876 2 years ago
3. But if Judas was going off to be punished, the fate of not existing WOULD be more tolerable to him. Jesus was clearly saying that Judas would be facing punishment.
One other one; what would any reader of Jesus parable of LAzarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16 conclude in reading it other than that the Just dead recelve comfort with the God, and the Wicked go off to be tormented.
No I don't preach. I'm a pharmacist . See #4.
msm1876 2 years ago
4. In 2 Peter 2:4, we find that the word "Tartaros" is translated "Hell", and this word is used only in this passage. This word literally means "to incarcerate in eternal torment:- to cast down to Hell". In context, THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY that this word can mean "the grave". There is, in fact, much evidence in the New Testament that Hell is a literal place, where those who reject Jesus Christ as Saviour will go.
msm1876 2 years ago
"I'm a pharmacist?" Um, I know a JW pharmacist, she's a Christian FIRST, that's our identity and preaching is a requirement. The parable of Lazarus has quite a bit of hyperbole that can't be literal. And again, this is a state of judgment. It can't translate to ETERNAL torment after death because one, we only live 70-100 years in a land of chaos, but two there are many many scriptures in the bible that are clear about the condition of the dead. Judgment period is 1,000 years we think.
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
I thought you were asking me if I was a Preacher, you know, a pastor. First and foremost, I am a Christian, born again by the grace of God. I have prayed for and spoken to the sick in hospitals, so, yes I have preached before in that sense. See next Hebrews 10:29-31. See #2
msm1876 2 years ago
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God..."Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This seems to be a warning of punishment as a consequence of judgement, not annihilation.
msm1876 2 years ago
3. in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those(B) who do not know God and on those who(C) do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the punishment of(D) eternal destruction,(E) away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Footnotes:
msm1876 2 years ago
Sorry, I clicked that too fast, that was 1Thess 1:8-9. Eternal destruction awaits the damned as a punishment.
If I am correct, what are you doing to avoid it?
msm1876 2 years ago
you said your self "eternal destruction" Gee, this is a pretty important teaching here. Why didn't God mention this to Adam and Eve? Or the Isrealites? Moses? ANYONE? In the sermon on the mount? To believe this you have to 1. Ignore the bible in its entirety and the many scriptures that talk about the condition of the dead and that soul can be destroyed in hell. 2. Have a wicked heart and no common sense, not just about the cruelty but about the realities of existence now under Satan's system.
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
Eternal destruction, meaning being destroyed without it ever being completed, ie, tormented day and night forever and ever. And the prophets did warn of hell in the OT:
Daniel 12:2
Isaiah 33:10-14
Psalm 21:8-9
I'm not saying the souls of the damend are tormented in the lake of fire after they die, they are awaiting their final judgement in the abode of the dead.
And please, let's just exchange ideas without ad hominem attacks, saying I have a wicked heart and don't know the bible.
msm1876 2 years ago
Someone that ignores the Bible and the healing that it accomplishes teaching others that God creates people to live in imperfection with free will only to torture them without end is a charge against God that thankfully is not in the Bible. For someone to have the heart condition to see what you see in scripture, unless you move forward and learn about the other scriptues that shed light and clear God's name, you quality for the scriptural adhom Offspring of viper.You smear the truth for others
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
So Daniel is a good example of how at death we are sleeping. The ones who awake to contempt are being judged during the thousand reign, and their death will be everlasting. DEATH is everlasting with no further hope of life. The contempt is from God, he can hold someone in contempt whether they are alive or dead. He has no interest in torturing creatures he gave life to. Open your heart and stop slandering God like this. Think about eternity and well THINK. Eternity never ends, why pain?
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
Romans says you're acquitted of sin at death. Yes, so during judgment, that's one thing, but if you're given the death penalty after that judgment, you DIE. This is plain in scripture if you're not heavily indoctrinated and read the whole bible. Also, people did not ask to be born and were given free will and the whole world is ruled by the devil. It's religiously pious people who now "Have their reward in full" so what will happen to those who have already been rewarded? Hellfire?That's nuts.
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
Realize, then, that you are calling Jesus nuts:
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, WHERE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. (emphasis mine)
There can't be weeping and teeth gnashing if you've been wiped from existence.
msm1876 2 years ago
Well the religiously pious that have their reward in full will be there. Why is this not in the Bible anywhere else, and why do you ignore the rest of the Bible? The furnace is metaphorical for judgment and has nothing to do with death. Once they get the death sentence they die. What about when Jesus said the soul could be killed in hell? And the myriads of other scriptures you're ignoring? Can you give me one scripture that says clearly the condition of the dead? They exist, do you know one?
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
Kill the soul in hell? I thought it was destroy it in hell, and in the context of everything else said about it, it means everlasting destruction, where torment and destruction does not end. You still haven't explained the wailing and teeth gnashing. See 2
msm1876 2 years ago
These scriptures are regarding judgment, not the second death.
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
Praise God for his Word that can truly change even the thinkings of the heart!
What should be noted is what Jesus DID NOT say in John 14:28. He DID NOT say that the Father was "Better" then the Son, as is the contrast between Christ and the angels in Hebrews 1. During the life of Christ, Jesus "made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant...And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself". If this is true, then the Father was indeed "greater" then the Son.
Newagegamer3018 2 years ago
But after the self-humiliation of Christ, Jesus was "exalted him to the highest place" and now has"the name that is above every name".(Phil 2:6-11) That is why it was not until after the Lord was risen did he say "All authority in Heaven and on Earth has been given me"(Matthew 28:18), which is the definition of the word Almighty. Just as a husband is "greater" then his wife, that does not make him better, or his wife anyless a Human. Jesus likewise is no lesser God then his Father.(Col 2:9)
Newagegamer3018 2 years ago
Sure thing my friend, sleep on it and pray on it. Dont listen to me, dont listen to Senojes, but listen to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, let him be your guide to all truth. We will continue this tomorrow, Goodnight and God bless.
Newagegamer3018 2 years ago
I happen to believe that in Hebrews 1:8 by the Father adressing Christ as God, he is acknowledging Jesus as his equal and co-occupent of His Throne. Submissiveness does not necesarily mean he is any lower in nature to the Father. As Col 2:9 clearly debunks the idea. I dont think I we need to see the Father himself worship Jesus to prove he is God, by the fact that he is worshiped at all proves he is God. You should take a look at Zechariah 2:10-11; 12:10; 14:3-5. Jesus is clearly YHWH.
Newagegamer3018 2 years ago
But my friend, Yes Jesus has a God, the Father, but even the Father calls the Lord Jesus Christ God!
"But about the Son he(God the Father) says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."-Hebrews 1:8
By Jesus being the One and Only Son of God, he is claiming to be of the same nature as his God and Father. In Christ "all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"(Col 2:9). Jesus is God.(John 1:1,14.18)
Newagegamer3018 2 years ago
>JW's .. the Trinity .. I seem to agree with them on
Since there are ONLY 4 categories available: 1. fully God; 2. a lesser God; 3. an angel; or 4. only a man; which of these 4 categories is Jesus in your view JB7?
Senojes 2 years ago
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Senojes 2 years ago
1]>Deut 6:4 .. showing how ONE can be used to describe a plural. I agree, you are right,
Thanks, that's all I need to refute the JW and other anti-Trinitarian's argument based on Dt 6:4 that God must be a UNITARY one.
Senojes 2 years ago
2] And as already stated, Paul quotes Dt 6:4, the Jewish shema, in 1Cor 8:4 and then in 1Cor 8:6, he expands Dt 6:4 to give a CHRISTIAN shema: "yet FOR US .. there is but ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST .."
So again, Jesus IS Jehovah, come in the flesh.
And since "there is but ONE LORD" and He is "JESUS", those who deny that Jesus is Jehovah MUST deny that Jehovah is Lord!
Senojes 2 years ago
1] >Matthew 24:36 .."concerning that day and hour nobody knows... ONLY THE FATHER." If Jesus was 100% GOD wouldn't he know this ..
This ignores that Jesus was BOTH God AND man, and in His human nature Jesus didn't know MANY things, e.g. Lk 2:52 says "Jesus GREW IN WISDOM" and Mk 5:31 says Jesus did not know who touched Him in a crowd.
Senojes 2 years ago
2] There are MANY verses which say Jesus is God (Mt 1:23, Jn 1:1,18, 20:28, Acts 20:28, Rom 9:5; Php 2:6, Col 2:9, Tit 2:13, Heb 1:8, 2Pet 1:1, 1Jn 5:20).
The RIGHT approach is to not to PLAY ONE VERSE OFF AGAINST ANOTHER but to TRY TO SEE HOW BOTH CAN BE TRUE, i.e. Jesus IS God, AND on Earth He did not know many things, including the time of His return.
The Bible in 2Pet 3:16 WARNS that "IGNORANT and unstable people" CAN "distort ... the .. Scriptures" but "to their own DESTRUCTION."
Senojes 2 years ago
John 8:17, 18. Jesus clearly spoke of himself being an individual and seperate from the Father.
santoas23 2 years ago
>John 8:17, 18. Jesus clearly spoke of himself being an individual and seperate from the Father.
AGREED!!! It IS the Christian doctrine of the Trinity that the Son IS a separate individual Person from the Father.
The Son shares the same GOD NATURE as the Father. But the Son IS NOT the Father.
A human son shares the same HUMAN NATURE as his Father. But the human son IS NOT his father.
Senojes 2 years ago
Deuteronomy 6:4 speaks about God being one God. If this is true, then how can he be 3?
santoas23 2 years ago
1] >Deuteronomy 6:4 speaks about God being one God. .. how can he be 3?
The doctrine of the Trinity says that God is a tri-UNITY, 3-in-ONE.
The Heb. word 'echad "one" in Dt 6:4 can mean a COMPOUND UNITY. In the OT 'echad is used of the compound unity: "one flesh" of man and wife (Gn 2:24) ); "one people" of many persons (Gn 11:6); " one voice" of "the people" (Ex 24:3); "one cluster of grapes" (Num 13:23); "one stick" joined to "another stick" making a compound "one stick" (Eze 37:16-17).
Senojes 2 years ago
2] The messianic Jewish Torah-Observant Followers of Yeshua CITE Dt 6:4 as PROOF that YHWH is a compound unity:
"Statements of Belief .. 2. YHWH [the LORD] is our Elohim. He is echad [One]. He alone is YHWH. Deuteronomy 6:4. 3. The nature of YHWH is a compound unity expressed in the aspects of Abba [God, the Father], Yeshua [Salvation, Jesus, the Son, Messiah] and the Ruach HaKodesh [the Holy Spirit/Breath] in this age. Matthew 28:19." [ h t t p : / / tiny url . com / pn7r5p ]
Senojes 2 years ago
Babylonians worshiped trinities and triad gods. I am sure you know what happened to Babylon.
santoas23 2 years ago
1] >Babylonians worshiped trinities and triad gods.
The Babylonian triads were THREE SEPARATE gods. They were not ONE GOD in three Persons, a tri-UNITY, as the Christian Triune God is.
The WT's claim the Christian Trinity is derived from Babylonian triads is SELF-EVIDENTLY FALSE and ABSURD.
Christians get their doctrine of the Trinity FROM THE BIBLE. Christian churches DON'T preach, run courses or write books PROMOTING BABYLONIAN RELIGION.
Senojes 2 years ago
2] The WT has admitted if a JW reads the Bible EXCLUSIVELY he will come to believe Christianity's doctrines, which includes the Trinity:
".. there have arisen from AMONG THE RANKS OF JEHOVAH'S PEOPLE those who .. say that it is sufficient to READ THE BIBLE EXCLUSIVELY .. But .. through such `BIBLE READING,' they have reverted right back to the .. DOCTRINES .. CHRISTENDOM'S CLERGY .. TEACH.." (WT, 8/15/81, p.29).
And MESSIANIC JEWS who don't call themselves Christians accept the Trinity.
Senojes 2 years ago
3] So the WT's claim that the Trinity is Babylonian MUST be a claim that the BIBLE is Babylonian.
But the Babylonain Empire ENDED IN 538 BC and its gods ended with it, SIX CENTURIES before the time of Christ.
NO ONE in the 1st century KNEW what the Babylonian gods were. It was only in the 19TH CENTURY, that archaeology discovered what the Babylon gods were.
Senojes 2 years ago
4] If JWs would ONLY THINK about the WT's claim that the Christian Trinity is derived from the Babylonian triads, they would realise how PATENTLY ABSURD it is, and how it EXPOSES the WT, yet again, as a FALSE TEACHER!
Senojes 2 years ago
A) You didn't answer the JW objection.
B) Jesus being given authority means that he didn't have it
C) God cannot be given authority because he always has it already
Conclusion: Jesus cannot be the only true God
D) Receiving authority from God does not make one God
E) Authority and power to forgive sins, cast out demons, raise the dead, etc. is given to men other than the Messiah
F) Examples are Elijah, the Disciples, and the Apostles and many many more
Conclusion 2: Jesus is not Almighty God.
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
>Jesus being given authority means that he didn't have it
Yes, in His HUMAN NATURE, Jesus did not have authority but needed to be given it by God the Father.
The rest of your argument, that Jesus did not also have a GOD NATURE, therefore FAILS.
Senojes 2 years ago
A) First you must define Jesus because you will see that your Jesus is not in the bible.
B) Either Jesus knew everything or he didn't. Either Jesus could do anything or he couldn't. Either Jesus had all authority or he didn't.
C) You are wresting scripture to excuse the fact that Jesus didn't have all authority until it was GIVEN to him.
D) If ANY of Jesus didn't have authority than not ALL of Jesus was authoritative.
E) If Jesus was not ALL authoritative than he was not ALL God.
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
>Jesus is not Almighty God.
The JW's own NWT says He is:
Rev 1: 8 NWT "I am the Al'pha and the O•me'ga," says Jehovah God, "THE ONE .. who IS COMING, the ALMIGHTY."
The FATHER is not COMING. It is JESUS who is COMING:
Rev 7 NWT Look! HE IS COMING with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who PIERCED HIM ..
The FATHER was not PIERCED. It was JESUS who was PIERCED.
So even in the NWT, JESUS is JEHOVAH GOD, "THE ONE .. who IS COMING, the ALMIGHTY"!
Senojes 2 years ago
A) I'm not a JW, I don't care a whole lot what the NWT says.
B) Why isn't the Father coming?
- The Father dwells in Christ so certainly the Son couldn't go somewhere without the Father
- Where does it says that the Father will not appear on Earth with the Son?
C) The verse doesn't even say the Father is 'coming':
who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty (NASB)
D) It clearly means that he is eternal; not that he is going somewhere.
E) I agree, the Father was not pierced.
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
>I'm not a JW, I don't care a whole lot what the NWT says.
In that case I haven't the time (or inclination) to debate with you, bandaidmafia. Goodbye.
Senojes 2 years ago
So long. Hopefully I've given you something useful to consider.
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
>my main tool was online .. material supporting the Trinity
Thanks for admitting that your "extensive research" on the Trinity involved NO reading of Christian BOOKS specifically on the Trinity!
One Christian book on the Trinity I recommend you (and JWs) read is:
Bowman, R. "Why You Should Believe in the Trinity," 1989.
which argues for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and answers common JW objections to it (including yours).
ABEbooks online has it secondhand for only $1.00!
Senojes 2 years ago
>the Trinity i stood firm in backing it until i did extensive research on it.
What WAS this "extensive research" on the Trinity you claim you did?
That is, what CHRISTIAN books on the Trinity did you read in this "extensive research" on the Trinity you claim you did?
And what NON-Christian books on the Trinity did you read in this "extensive research" on the Trinity you claim you did?
Senojes 2 years ago
>please give your opinion on John 14:28 "the Father is greater than I"
You claim you are not a JW but ALL you post are JW-favourite proof-texts!
There is an old saying, `Don't believe what people SAY, believe what they DO.' And what you DO is what JW''s do. Also, like a JW, NO verses I cite make ANY DIFFERENCE to you. So I will continue to assume you ARE a JW engaging in `theocratic warfare.'
I have answered the JW's Jn 14:28 argument here under "Is Jesus Christ Michael the Archangel?"
Senojes 2 years ago
>ive never heard the Trinity described from that point of view.
Since you are making THEOLOGICAL STATEMENTS about the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, what CHRISTIAN PRO-TRINITY books on the Trinity do you own/have read?
Senojes 2 years ago
>yes the Son is of the same essence in a sense but not equal
Thanks for admitting that Jesus the Son of God shares "the SAME ESSENCE" and therefore GOD NATURE as the Father, and therefore Jesus is FULLY GOD, with the Father, but is FUNCTIONALLY SUBORDINATE to the Father, which IS what the Christian doctrine of the Trinity maintains.
Senojes 2 years ago
>I would say i put faith in the Jesus .. more than a man or angels.. not .. GOD ..
Thanks for admitting, in a roundabout way, that you, like other JWs, believe that Jesus is in category "c) a lesser god."
That makes you a POLYTHEIST, i.e. one who believes in the existence of more than one true God.
By the way, "Son of God" MEANS of the SAME NATURE as God the Father, but NOT THE SAME PERSON as God the Father.
Which IS PRECISELY what the Christian doctrine of the Trinity maintains.
Senojes 2 years ago 3
>am less apt to disagree with. the trinitarians i have spoken with
NO Christian in my 40+ years a Christian, has EVER described other Christians as "trinitiarians".
So in view of JB7's other pro-JW arguments, unless he can PROVE here he is not a JW, I will now assume he IS a JW, engaging in `theocratic warfare':
"As a soldier of Christ he [a JW] is in theocratic warfare and .. it is PROPER TO HIDE THE TRUTH from God's enemies." (WT, June 1, 1960, p.352)
i.e. LYING for the WT.
Senojes 2 years ago
>all we need to do is repent and have faith in Jesus
WHICH `Jesus' do you have faith in? It is possible to have faith in ANOTHER Jesus" (2Cor 11:4 KJV), a FALSE Christ (Mt 24:24).
If He is not FULLY God in the SAME sense as the Father is God, then your `Jesus' MUST be either: a) only a man; b) an angel or c) a lesser god. There are NO other categories.
So if YOUR Jesus is NOT FULLY GOD, in the SAME sense the Father is, WHICH of these three "ANOTHER Jesus" categories is YOUR `Jesus' ?
Senojes 2 years ago
1]>since Jesus says he has a GOD in rev 3:12, would it make sense for GOD to have a GOD?
Verses like Jn 20:17; Rom 15:6; 2Cor 1:3; Rev 1:6; 3:12 which teach that the Father is in a UNIQUE sense the Son\'s God, are perfectly consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity which maintains the Son is the SAME ESSENCE as, but SUBORDINATE to, the Father.
As an analogy: "The son of a king may be OFFICIALLY SUBORDINATE and yet EQUAL IN NATURE to his father" (Wycliffe Bible Commentary, 1962, p.1257).
Senojes 2 years ago
2] >Also 1st corinthians 15:28 states clearly that Jesus is subject to the FATHER..
Again, it IS the doctrine of the Trinity that the Son is EQUAL to the Father in NATURE but SUBORDINATE to Him in POSITION:
As I stated under Newagegamer's "Jesus as the Eternal Alpha & Omega, the I AM":
"The Son is subordinate to the Father (Jn 14:28; 1Cor 11:3; 15:28; Mt 27:46; Jn 20:17; Rev 1:6; 3:2,12)."
See my blog Jesus is Jehovah!: "Re: Is Jesus Jehovah? Please answer the following #2" and #4.
Senojes 2 years ago
3] Here is another quote that may help to explain that Jesus being FULLY God is NOT inconsistent with Him being SUBORDINATE to the Father:
".. the Son is subject to the Father, and, the Son is equal with the Father, are both true. In one sense he is subject, in another sense he is equal. The son of a king may be the equal of his father in every attribute of his nature, though officially inferior. So the eternal Son of God may be coequal with the Father, though officially subordinate ..
Senojes 2 years ago
4] The subordination, however, here spoken of .. is the OFFICIAL SUBORDINATION of the INCARNATE Son to God as God .. the subjection spoken of, is .. not of the Son as Son, but of the Son AS INCARNATE; and the SUBJECTION ITSELF IS OFFICIAL and therefore PERFECTLY CONSISTENT WITH EQUALITY OF NATURE." (Hodge, C., "First Corinthians,"1976, pp.333-334).
That is, because Jesus is God INCARNATE both God and MAN, apart from anything else, in His HUMAN nature, Jesus' worships the Father as His God.
Senojes 2 years ago
>also i am a Christian
You are NOT a Christian if you DENY that Jesus is God in the SAME sense that the Father is God.
Your `Jesus' would then be "another Jesus" (2Cor 11:4 KJV), i.e. either just a man, an angel or a lesser god.
I have answered the JW Rev 3:12 `does God have a God?' argument under Newagegamer's "Why Jesus is the Eternal God Yahweh."
I thought I had answered the JW 1Cor 15:28 `Jesus is subject to the Father' argument.
I will answer both again under this video.
Senojes 2 years ago
See that was the annoyong and confusing part in the doctrine about trinity its like the greek gods they are all god but zeus was the higher or they chief and other was just subordinates..makin the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT as a subordinate of the makes them diff from the father..i have once read on the old testament when GOD proclaim israel that he is the only GOD and no other GOD should be worship except him..i dint remember the verse im not an expert but i know you have read it also
fotovoltaicoful 2 years ago
>.. that was the annoyong and confusing part in the doctrine about trinity its like the greek gods .. im not an expert
If you are not an expert then HOW do you KNOW that the Trinity is not true?
I AM an expert in the sense that, although I don't have a theological degree, I have been a Christian 40+ years and have read MANY books on the Trinity and EVERY Bible verse on it and understand how they ALL fit together, and I testify to you that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity IS true.
Senojes 2 years ago
And again, the WT has admited that if a JWs reads the BIBLE EXCLUSIVELY they will come to believe CHRISTIANITY'S DOCTRINES (which includes the TRINITY):
".. there have arisen from AMONG THE RANKS OF JEHOVAH'S PEOPLE those who .. say that it is sufficient to READ THE BIBLE EXCLUSIVELY .. But .. through such `BIBLE READING,' they have reverted right back to the .. DOCTRINES .. CHRISTENDOM'S CLERGY .. TEACH.." (WT, 8/15/81, p.29).
Senojes 2 years ago
>So please state what you ARE, i.e. an ex-JW ..
No answer from JB7 as yet. So I will therefore assume, in the absence of JB7 stating what he IS, and in light of his JW-like statements:
>>Rev 3:12 .. Would GOD call someone else his GOD? .. matt 24:36 .. if Jesus was 100% GOD he would know this .. YHWH is the ONLY and Almighty GOD
that JB7 is indeed another JW engaging in "theocratic warfare." i.e. LYING for the WT.
Senojes 2 years ago
>I'm not a JW
Then what ARE you?
We have had one who CLAIMED he was not a JW, but didn't say what he WAS, and he turned out to be a JW practicing "theocratic warfare." i.e. LYING for the WT.
So please state what you ARE, i.e. an ex-JW, a Christadelphian, a Oneness Pentecostal, etc.
If you are a NOTHING, who goes NOWHERE to worship God, there is no point me wasting time my scarce time on a DILETTANTE, whose views on God involve NO COMMITMENT and COST HIM NOTHING.
Senojes 2 years ago
there is no such thing as trinity if you believe in the bible try to find that word there the apostles never teach that there is 3GOD get plss dont try to twist the truth by using the scriptures coz we all know that even satan know the scriptures..
fotovoltaicoful 2 years ago
>trinity if you believe in the bible try to find that word there
This is a STRAW MAN fallacy. No Christian theologian has EVER claimed that the WORD "trinity" is in the Bible.
If the lack of a WORD for a Bible TEACHING means that the teaching is wrong, then there is no WORD "Jehovah" in the Bible either, the correct English translation of the Heb. YHWH being YaHWeH .
The WT ADMITS that the WORD "Jehovah" was INVENTED by a catholic monk in 1270:
Senojes 2 years ago
"...`Jehovah'.. combining the vowel signs of 'Adhonay' and 'Elohim' with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton .. provided the basis for the Latinized form `Jehova(h);' The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk .. in .. 1270." (WB&TS, "Aid to Bible Understanding," 1971, p.884).
Senojes 2 years ago
The term "Jehovah's Witness" is not in the English Bible, not even in the NWT, but the word "Christian" is (Ac 11:26; 26:28; 1Pet 4:12).
So JWs are guilty of employing a DOUBLE-STANDARD in claiming it is an argument against the Bible TEACHING of the Trinity that the WORD "trinity" is not in the Bible.
Senojes 2 years ago
Let me remind you that the bible is complete it self and the apostol paul give warning on revelation if im not mistaken that who ever add or omit any word from their writting ..will name be remove on the book of life ..so it means that the bible is enough to teach us what GOD want us to do other books come from pure taughts of men who think they know everything..no offense im just defending the bible cause its the word of GOD
fotovoltaicoful 2 years ago
>Let me remind you that the bible is complete it self
Agreed! And the TEACHING of the Trinity IS in the Bible (see the BIBLE verses I quoted here and also under Newagegamer's video, "Jesus as the Eternal Alpha & Omega, the I AM), even though the WORD "Trinity" is not in the Bible.
Senojes 2 years ago
grantin without conceding that your words was right then who among the 3 in the trinity which you refer as one is much greater the FATHER THE SON OR THE HOLY SPIRIT this part really confuse me..some say they have the same diety then why JESUS praying to FATHER and the one who give the authority to JESUS CHRIST over everything was the FATHER
fotovoltaicoful 2 years ago
>who among the 3 in the trinity which you refer as one is much greater the FATHER THE SON OR THE HOLY SPIRIT
The word GREATER in Jn 14:28 does not mean BETTER. It means greater in POSITION. The Bible teaches (and so the doctrine of the Trinity states) that Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same GOD NATURE, but the Son and Holy Spirit are SUBORDINATE to the Father.
See my comments under Newagegamer's "Is Jesus Christ Michael the Archangel?" and "Why Jesus is the Eternal God Yahweh."
Senojes 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
In my `quiet time' this morning my reading was a proof-text of the Trinity, 1 Cor 12:4-6, and it is even in the NWT:
Senojes 2 years ago
"4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is THE SAME SPIRIT; 5 and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is THE SAME LORD; 6 and there are varieties of operations, and yet it is THE SAME GOD who performs all the operations in all persons."
Senojes 2 years ago
Note the three Persons of the Trinity are mentioned in REVERSE ORDER, Spirit, Son and Father, showing their ESSENTIAL EQUALITY.
Senojes 2 years ago
Sorry I had to post this in three parts, but YT can't add up to 500 this morning!
Senojes 2 years ago
Comment removed
Senojes 2 years ago
wow.. soo powerfull realy.. god bless u .. and reveal to u with his spirit..
god bless
guitarist007s 2 years ago
If you can't understand the TRUTH that JESUS IS GOD! this is why-
1 Corinthians 2:13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. )
Please receive the LORD JESUS in your heart!GOD BLESS YOU!!!
yoyitoface 2 years ago
have you changed the battery of the firealarm yet? god bless :-)
norwegianapostate 2 years ago
Great point kid, Jesus has all the authority; by the way does He earned the almighty tittle? 1 Corinthians 15: 27-28 Keep studying.
wertyh11 2 years ago
no read carefully you can use wikipedia as a source for links and yourown research, can you show me how i MISQUOTED the catholics, and how the catholics OF ALL churches can help your POV. you can go to wikipedia or google and search the links they provide, when the church themselves admit that the trinity wasnt practiced till 325 its prety damning evidence. sorry the texts you list dont contradict church testimony to the council in 325.
whodidJesusprayto 2 years ago
The problem with your argument is that the Early Christians DID believe in a Trinity. Irenaeus who lived almost 200 years BEFORE the Council of Nicea he wrote "Glory to the All-Holy Trinity and one Divinity: Father and Son and all-provident Holy Spirit, forever, Amen." Tertullian who lived in the 2nd Century said "The Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God". Sounds like the Trinity to me. You need to prove otherwise.
Newagegamer3018 2 years ago
ok let me ake it CLEAR one last time im am NOT a JW i DO NOT OWN watchtower books, I didnt Misquote or copy anything under watchotwer books in anyway, it is comon knowledge that the 3rd century church adopted trinitarism you can use wiki or any search engine to do some simple research those who believe that the DEVIL changed actual evidence and historian proofs of fact are just blinding themselves from the truth, Belief cannot be reasoned with Fact however can.
whodidJesusprayto 2 years ago
How can you honestly claim such a thing and misquote the Catholic Encyclopedia and then totally ignore the testimony of the Early Church Fathers who were BEFORE 325 and believed in the deity of our Lord Jesus, and the Holy Trinity. Please, refute the Early Church Fathers who I quoted, the two I quoted where diciples of John and they believed Jesus was God.
And your gonna use Wikipedia as a source? Thats horrible, nowhere near scholarly. Please use actual REAL Fact.
Newagegamer3018 2 years ago
intersting since they were among the first to adopt the trinity as "truth"
whodidJesusprayto 2 years ago
shame
kombatzero 2 years ago
who resurrected Jesus Christ !!!
BatmanMatrix1 2 years ago
Jesus reserrected himself. jn2: 19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
jn10:17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.
arnie365 2 years ago
Jesus resurrected himself.mindless insight due to the fact Jesus was put to death ! if he resurrected himself his death becomes void ! due to the fact he did not die fully and still able to come to life ! you need help with your understanding .
BatmanMatrix1 2 years ago
i believe it`s u who needs help with ur understanding.
what do u think Jesus ment when He said ...but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. in jn 10:17
according 2 who did His death become void if He resurrected Himself? the wts who has contradicted thier doctrine so may times that it become rediculous. where in the bible does it say it is void?
the bible(not the fallable wt mag) tells us that Jesus is ALMIGHTY God.
arnie365 2 years ago
next your be saying the moon is made of cheese ! God help you !
BatmanMatrix1 2 years ago
It's interesting that JW's are prepared to sweep aside the Scriptures which are used to show Jesus is God with the response "But it doesn't make any sense, it's not logical". Talk about "leaning on your own understanding". Is it surprising that the nature of being of the eternal Creator may be rather unusual and unfathomable when compared to the nature of humans or animals? Isn't it a a bit arrogant to insist God's being must conform to human logic if the Bible indicates otherwise in places?
Oherne 2 years ago
Oherne.....if the Bible told us that Jesus was God we would believe it....but Jesus never once claimed to be God but the Messiah.
JAKEV25 2 years ago
we are made in God image, does this mean i hav three different beings in me that i can split into three different parts at the ame time but still have them be me?, If jesus was God who did jesus pray to?
whodidJesusprayto 2 years ago
body,soul and spirit!!!
arnie365 2 years ago
if jesus was God on earth, then who was in heaven when jesus prayed??? clearly not God...if God was in heaven then Jesus could Not be God......it is illogical its a MAJOR hole in the trintiy
whodidJesusprayto 2 years ago