Answers to Responses on my Question to the NO on Prop8 peeps

[plankboi]

arguing with this guy is not worth your time anyone, i dont know why ya'll bothered. hes got a reason or answer to everything you have to say. its just a big unending circle of useless dialogue. unless maybe arguing is what you need to make you happy.

[Edlin1986]

If you are not enforcing and ideal on the 50 percent of couples that divorce, why are you making everyone believe in your ideals? People should have the right to choose.

It was "ideal" for whites to marry whites, blacks to marry blacks (and by the way, many people still believe that) however, the law does NOT keep people from choosing who they can marry? Why apply that to gays also? Marriage IS about two people who care about each other. You are not FORCED to marry just ANY woman. Are you?

[HiveRadical]

Edlin, again a society need not mandate and ideal to have it as an ideal. And I'm not making everyone believe in my ideals, but since in over 30 states in the union have a majority who believe it is ideal they place it as something to be fostered, not mandated. If you can convince a majority then your ideal, whatever it might be, can be set in a condition to be fostered.

[ffejpsycho]

Because the constitution has protections set in place precisely to protect the rights of the few against the whims of the majority

[universalJok3r]

everything has its purpose.

procreation may create a new organism, but there are other ways to ensure the continuation of a social species. adoption or anothers child sees essentially the same end as producing one yourself. It happens quite often in nature as well.

It sees the continuation of a new generation within the species.

In an evolution scenario, there are no set rules. various forms appear, they encounter their environment, the best suited survive.

[universalJok3r]

What you are essentially arguing here is the superiority of the nuclear family towards other family systems.

plenty of single parent families produce equally stable children too.

even if a child is raised in an environment with only one parent, nothing stops them from finding role models outside the immediate home.

It is not just the parents who raise a child, It is the entire community in which they live.

these cannot be separated.

[HiveRadical]

The fact that plenty of single parent families produce equally stable children is irrelevant. 'plenty' of children from abusive homes grow up to be as equally stable as children from other homes. The fact that a significant number of humans can endure and overcome a condition does not make it ideal or equivocal.

Look at the raw numbers and you'll see that your 'plenty' is not 'equal.'

[universalJok3r]

Ideal does not exist, It is a concept invented by Man to try and compare the world they have to the world they want.

Hardship is nessicery to all life, without hardship there can be no learning or spiritual growth.

You cannot understand the power of fire until you have been burnt...

[aigelkott]

I watched this video and read the responses you got and at first I thought you actually had some logical points and ppl have different opinions and so on.

Although I don't agree with you, but my thing is, we are humans and humans are 99% the same and if there shouldn't be equal rights for all humans because of 1% differences, then where is the humanity? why should some be seen as less than human? Where is the love?

[HiveRadical]

I'm not advocating ANYONE be seen as less than human. What I'm talking about is the relative value of relationships to society and to the continuation of humanity (not merely reproducing humans, but all the transmission of what makes humanity humanity).

And your point on the percentage is a moot point. If you look at the differences in atmospheric gasses and the percentages of global climate change you'd take pause, UNLESS you knew about the concept of a feed back loop. Now such %&^

[HiveRadical]

%&^ is present in the dynamics between the genders.

Feedback loops and the constant interplay of the dynamics of any relationship PROFOUNDLY effect the interface with any children involved.

You also seem to miss out on the fact that variation is not so much an issue of percentages as it is to the relative nature of two or more items.

[HiveRadical]

RE "Listen buddy..."

There are many people who claim that the way they are is just how they are and the outgrowths of their condition and societies sins are committing some grave injustice on them. I'm a tall guy. I'm ignored and treated unequally for it. Or I'm singled out and made a spectacle. I see cultural expectations and attempts at conditioning for that and an array of other conditions I have. You may think my condition is trivial compared to yours, so also is yours compared to others.

[HiveRadical]

Yes somewhereNBtween, we were all children. That argument doesn't negate children yet to be in favor of the children who once were children.

That's a common view held by people that move into beautiful land. For some reason they were all for the edification of the home they have just moved into in the middle of pristine wilderness, that development was just fine. But they want to jump to the defense of the environment once they got theirs. You can't have 'equality' (as you see it) on both ends.

[PurplenovaX]

You said it perfectly hun.

If straight people do produce gays as children, not only do they have no f*&^%g idea on how to care for and raise them but they activly separate them from society.

Natural selection does not happen via court rooms and institutions, it happens from one entity being stronger than the other.

Hetro fools give LGBT such a hard time to achieve basic human rights and civil rights that they are making the LGBT a stronger group than the hetro's. Be careful!

[HiveRadical]

Fitness is not determined by strength. Fitness is always relative to one's environment. Please do not take this analogy the wrong way, I give it simply to demonstrate that relative strength and hardening and marshaling of resources and power and influence does not lead to lasting strength and dominance. Mutating cells (referring to ideas/ideals/ideologies/memes in this analogy, not people) happen all the time in the human body, most of the time their own alterations %^

[HiveRadical]

%^ make it so they don't last. Sometimes they do last and you get a mole or some other abnormality, maybe a tumor. Often these remain local, but sometimes they become so strong and so hardened and powerful that they spread and dominate outside of their original locus. Their capacity to grow and dominate and turn things to their advantage make them appear, in a myopic view, to be as fit as the other cells, if not more so. Just because there's very little difference between cancerous cells and *#

[HiveRadical]

*# the tissue they derive from does not make them equal, to see them as equal would be horrible for both the whole of the individual who's body has such cells as well as it would be bad for any cells in the body, mutated or not, for as those cells dominate, and despite their incredible genetic (((

[HiveRadical]

((( similarity and their capacity to reproduce themselves and keep themselves as healthy as any of the other cells in the body, they will share the same fate as all the other cells in the body, namely communal death.

[PurplenovaX]

Look I want to even this up a bit and lighten it up a bit. So this a joke to take time out...like the Germans and English put down their arms for xmas day in WW1 and exchanged presents and spent the day together.

Ok this is in fun Hive...you call yourself HiveRadical...you seem very conservative rather than radical...lololol

This just a joke mate, I mean no offence, I believe your smile is as great as mine 8D.

[HiveRadical]

Radical is often tied to what's often termed the 'Liberal' (big 'L' Liberal as I've heard it called) movement.

In the spirit of the jest I suppose a good response to that is that HiveReactionary just doesn't have an endearing ring to it.

[PurplenovaX]

Yeah I know LOL.

[PurplenovaX]

I often think my toob name refers to me quite well.

Purple=trans colour..nova=massive explosion then immense implosion (I often come on utube, comment in a flurry and head out of town for a week..lol) X=what ever the freek you want it to mean...lolololol maybe coz I dont feel XY and I am not fully XX so maybe I see my self as a simple X...I don't know LMAO.

[HiveRadical]

I'd always thought the nova was a reference to 'new'

[PurplenovaX]

Hive what is your response to the notion that if you do not allow same sex marraige to remain a law that same sex will use the constitution to equalise this situation?

Why is it that civil rights and liberties be given only to those who follow one religion?

Look at the bigger picture.

There are same sex couples out there that are solid and productive members of your community that are being finacially restricted due to their non belief in christian faith.

You cannot see the injustice?

[HiveRadical]

%@@ would have a significant impact, not only on this generation, but on all future generations, if your condition was seen as being the equivalent to others under the law.

And I don't make this without evidence. There may not be a lot of specific research (the fact that my views involve the impact on society for generations beyond now and the inability to test such at present) does not mean the few hard facts I've given are not relevant.

[PurplenovaX]

Agreed but so far it is your FEAR that is driving this as well as concern.

STOP SAYING SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS A CHOICE.

IT IS F%$#$#$G HARD WIRED INUTERO FFS.

I yell that coz you have not respected the scientific community when they say that--being gay is NOT A CHIOCE.

Now tell me doctor that says otherwise 1st, then compile your response. If you do find one, ask if they are religious and ask if the scientific community agrees with them.

I am not angry, just annoyed.

[PurplenovaX]

Why am I annoyed, it is because you are being ignorrant and not on purpose but your one eyed approach keeps skipping that fact.

Yes it is a fact it is not a choice.

So tell me Hive, How would you raise a gay child with your views of being gay.

You just might try and even the gender influence to try and correct the deviated course....thats wrong.

YOU CANNT PREVENT SOMEONE FROM BEING GAY AND YOU CANNOT CONVERT SOMEONE TO OR FROM BEING GAY.

Your concern does not exist in reality.

[PurplenovaX]

So if you cannot prevent or cure being gay. Then how do you co-exist with gay people?

Throw them on the same island with the lepers?

Maybe ignore or abuse them so they just might go away?

Go to extreem lengths to make them "see the light".

Maybe wage a war against them to wipe them out (but you cannot stop nature so you are doomed there).

There are just as many female gays as well, it's not just a male urge.

You have been fundamentally wrong in most cases due to your foundation

[PurplenovaX]

I am never angry with things like this Hive, I am passionate, just as you. I do have scientific proof that what you are saying is in fact a skewed version of the truth that was exposed to be a lie over 30 years ago.

If being gay was able to be cured, I think the many electro shock/drugs/psych sessions would have found a way. FFS they use to labotomise gay people in the hope they 'CHOSE" otherwise.

It's amazing how cruel samaritans can be.

Sent with my respect Hive.

[HiveRadical]

U deal with them the same way you deal with people prone to promiscuity or prone to having a harder time controlling certain aspects of their emotions. Do you think people with anger issues choose to have more difficulty with that? Do you think people with conditions that impair their interactions socially choose that? Many of their cases arent any more changeable in anyway we know than sexual orientation. Certainly society should adapt to some degree, but not redefine foundational institutions

[PurplenovaX]

IT IS NOT PROMISCUITY. IT IS NATURAL TO FEEL THAT WAY.

Come on Hive, you are intelligent.

What do you think self repression leads to?

How much effort would it take to control these 'urges' and is that effort worthwhile when all you have to do is acknowledge that gay people are the same in everyother way except what they do in bed which no parent wants their children to see.

Nah man, unfortunately I can see you doing EXACTLY what my dad did. You share the same philosophy.

[PurplenovaX]

Hive. how would feel to be expected to be with another man?

As wrong as you would feel and discusted with your self and the loss of selfrespect is the same reaction someone shows when thay have been raped.

You condone this do you?

You think people should que up and be raped and feel all those negative emotions for your satification that proogation will not diminish.

You underestimate the human capacity to survive through all obsticles, repression is one of them.

[PurplenovaX]

You talk about redifining a constitution.

The redefinition happened when christians (2000 odd years ago) took power by killing people who would not agree with their faith. They then imposed a set of 'their' values upon society.

Before then unions were between 2 people or whatever gender combination. Christians called them pagans and heritics and killed them.

That is the legacy of the movement you are propogating.

It is time to adjust the xtian definition of what is right.

[HiveRadical]

One thing that's always boggled my mind is the insistence of the psychological community that at any moment any given person could have changes in their sexual orientation.

I'm not saying you can choose what your internal desires will or will not be, but for you to deny that they can change goes against what every psychology professor and professional psychology organization says about the matter. They are quite insistent on the possible fluidity.

[PurplenovaX]

Dude you are missing the point. Due to the social conditioning that gayness is bad, people are afraid to stand up.

When they finally stand up and say they are gay - people think "oh they 'turned' gay".

Thats just fookin ridiculous. No-one turns gay, they become aware that they are gay through life experiences as it was never taught or assessed at school level.

Do not confuse the point of awareness as a point of weakness.

[HiveRadical]

One chooses to act or not act upon it. Just as I choose or don't choose to act upon my attraction to a wide range of potential partners. Just as I choose to wait until I've committed for life to one exclusive partner in spite of my innate sexual desires that drive the majority of men to want, on some internal level, more than one sexual partner.

I'm not saying you can be 'cured.' I'm saying that you can choose how you will respond to it.

[PurplenovaX]

I am saying that science and history dictates that repressing natural actions, when not of ones choice, often proves to be fatal or meddlesome in ones action or reaction.

As it is part of the reptilian brain we all have, the hard wired survival mechanism we all use to survive, it is impossible by science to control your orientation. One CANNOT chose to go against it naturally or even with any help know to humankind.

So, if you can't cure it, or chose to go against it, then what?

[PurplenovaX]

Sorry I will re do that question.

If you cannot cure it and it is detrimental to society to repress these feelings and urges not to mention commonly fatal, what then?

[PurplenovaX]

Biologically you need a fertile male and a fertile female to procreate....agreed.

There are many parents out there that are inadequate guardians of the children they produce and that are in their care.

What makes you think gay people would withold a childs origin?

What makes you think that gay people are not educated enough to know the importance of the knowledge of origin?

What makes you think that gay people are any less capable of guardianship that reinforces origin?

[HiveRadical]

I don't think that gays would necessarily be any more or less likely to withhold a child's origin, I don't think they are any less educated.

Knowledge of origin and knowledge of the mechanics of life are hardly the only factors. Education is not the only key, in fact it's far from it.

[HiveRadical]

It's no more detrimental to society to repress those feelings and urges than it is to have the repression required for monogamy and fidelity. Do you feel that either monogamy or fidelity are dangerous to society?

Isn't their implementation repression? Doesn't even death result when a society places significant emphasis on marital fidelity?

[HiveRadical]

I think your description of your mental struggle and the descriptions you've given of your experience enunciate that even with the medical intervention you've chosen you would create a decidedly different situation and dynamic for a child than would any female. Much may be similar, but there are components tied to your biological gender that transcend your feelings and even your treatments. My view is that such %@@

[HiveRadical]

While same gender arrangements can in theory provide all the concern and care needed for the welfare and adjustment of any given child for their capacity to function and be nominally healthy in society. There are inherencies that are emergent from the varying gender dynamics in different combination that generally impact the whole of society regardless the orientation or gender of any single individual involved.

[HiveRadical]

%#% that is precisely when single parenthood took off. Now days there are single mothers everywhere & regardless their present view they, and those who were their sexual partners, created situations in which the children are seriously more disadvantaged than they would have been had the parents been encouraged 2 exercise self-repression.

I believe a like situation will B disadvantageous from the dynamic variances in same gender relationships, society will fundamental change via such condoning.

[PurplenovaX]

Self repression leads to suicide in the worst case and chronic depression in the majority of cases.

You would rather a world of self repressed people, doing in shopping malls, starting wars (sometimes self repressed people become leaders of nations), self harm and harm to others?

Self repression often leads to chronic unhappiness and in most cases leads to drug abuse with carries all the filth that goes with it.

I think your view on self repression is a dangerous one and doctors agree.

[HiveRadical]

"Isn't that putting the welfare of the child 1st Hive?"

I think this indicates one of the key instances in which we diverge. Certainly the familial elements and love and support are vital to the child.

But this goes beyond the welfare of that single child or the immediate generation of children. When society started to not actively encourage repression of actions that encouraged situations that would result in single parent situations %#%

[PurplenovaX]

Are you saying society is stupid, that they would not know how to procreate in the futre if gay people had the same rights as straight people. MY GOD they are ALL PEOPLE with brains and are a part of our collective knowledge.

You really underestimate the intelligence of the average person.

[HiveRadical]

I'm not saying society is stupid, I'm saying that there are unintended consequences. This isn't about not knowing how to it's about factors that influence their capacity (not speaking only about biological, clearly they will still have that) and likelyhood of all types of propagation of humanity, biological or cultural, to dominate sufficiently.

[PurplenovaX]

Thanks for the response Hive.

Now I must say that the cultures I mention also involve, Nth American Indians as well as Ancient Greece, not just Polenesia. It's not just an island thing, it's a white thing as well. It's a human thing.

For a start, sexual orientation, is not about throwing on a g-sring or madame costume and commiting sxual acts of insanity or even any other watered down version of that. That is called expression, not identity.

[PurplenovaX]

Sexual orientation is simply just that, do you like penis's or vagina's. It's really that simple. There are not many unbias doctors that would disagree. It is hard wired and there is nothing you can do to prevent it or deviate it. Doctors have tried with a near 99.9% failure rate. When the doctors discovered that it was hardwired, they approached it differently which resulted in a near 100% success rate of people being happy and productive and a benifit to society.

[PurplenovaX]

The only obsticle was religious belief's.

So far the law and social acceptance was based on a religiously skewed ideal. People were afraid of saying they were gay, be it man/man or woman/woman, all because they feared being bashed or murdered by people whos motive was cleansing.

These people were productive, happy and benificial people.

The side effect of this personal repression was sometimes violent and most times meddlesome to the individual and people around them.

[PurplenovaX]

The doctors could now see the tangled web of reactions effecting people on a daily basis all based on a belief that gay's were not normal when in fact it is a normal fact of life across all species and forms of life in this world. It is part of the very fabric of life itself as we know it today.

So Hive....It is NOT an urge. An urge is the result of the orientation. It is the same urge you get when you see a person you find attractive and are attracted to. It is called natural.

[PurplenovaX]

It is far more dangerous to make people repress them selves for some religious belief that they do not believe in and only a few people believe in.

It is far more important to give people the choice to be a good, happy, productive and benificial person to the society.

It is NOT right that civil liberties and privilages be given to only those that a religion recognises.

AND you seem to think that gays are irrational people and cannot be trusted or controlled.

[PurplenovaX]

The reverberations of self repression based on sexual orientation which is hardwired and cannot be effected or changed and seen to be ugly, bad, wrong, indecent, deviate, insane and the rest......I think, is an issue that is more of a threat to your way of life.

[PurplenovaX]

The guts it takes to stand up in the face of the oppressors and say that they them selves are a valid human being and NOTHING you can do or say will alter my worth wether it be in the face of racisism, biasism or any other fear motivated act of inhumanity, would get my vote to protect the values of society and and person especially children.

For the person that will not bend is the one that protects the better than the sheep that follow any popular breeze at the time.

[PurplenovaX]

The very doctors you refer to Hive are the people who disagree with you the most. They are the ones that provided the facts so this could be a law in the 1st place.

You really are fighting a religious crusade because so far you have not referred to any scientific facts to support your claims.

If you will not allow same sex to get married, you will end up losing your civil rights and liberties among married people.

Marraige will end up being only a religious ceremony and not a norm.

[PurplenovaX]

Why do I say this, Because it is in your constitution. It is what all you guys over there are proud of and will be the very thing that brings an equilibriam to this situation.

People will either obtain their civil rights through the equality of marraige or the desolution of marraige.

You will lose greatly if it is by the desolution as it will ripped apart and dissasembled before your very eyes.

I think that is worth considering Hive.

[PurplenovaX]

I can tell you how this attitude effeced me Hive.

My father believed I needed more male influences in my life. He believed I was going soft as I hung around my mother alot and was being mischeivious.

My mother was dying of cancer and died 2 days after he made me move out.

It turns out that I am transgender, and my natural reaction in life was that of a girl being ripped away from her dying mother and thrown into an all boys school to toughen up.

[PurplenovaX]

My father also wanted me to have sex with a female thinking that that would in effect promote and be the catalyst of my manhood so he got me a prostitute at age 14.

To me, I was raped. To him, he was protecting the sanctity of what it is to be a man.

And this was all instigated by a person who truly loved me and wanted the best for me given the information and social pressure at the time.

Your perception of how gender fits in is similar and proved to be almost fatal to me.

[PurplenovaX]

I urge you to reconsider for a number of reasons Hive.

If it not be for the reason that same sex will end up using the constitutuion to dislove the added rights and liberties of marraige to bring about equality among all people/humans.

Then be it for the fact you DO care and that there are people like me out there that are very worthy and valid people whom already lives and protects the society you live in.

Everyone that knows me, trusts me with their children. I am a godparent.

[PurplenovaX]

If I were to have custody of a child, I would know my influence would be more skewed feminine, I cannot change that, that is hard wired.

I would seek a balance of that influence and my goal would be an equilibriam for the welfare of that child. they would alsohave a family network with all different influences and then school, teachers, bosses and so on.

Isn't that what you are talking about?

Isn't that putting the welfare of the child 1st Hive?

[PurplenovaX]

Further to that, I would make sure the child knows that their family, incl me, would be there for them no matter what and would see their worth.

They would also NOT live in fear of persecusion from family members no matter what.

And I hope they have the chance to live a normal productive life within society and feel as if they fit in and are benificial....no matter what.

So with all that, I think I would be responsible enough and I am transgender and technically gay.

Go figure.

[HiveRadical]

While I have the deepest of sympathy for your incredible and traumatic life experiences I really don't agree with you that my view on this issue would have ever gotten me anywhere near imposing the things your father did. He, in my view, was clearly abusive.

I hope you do not see my defense of my view as in anyway justifying the travesties and crimes done against you.

[PurplenovaX]

In part yes and no. I would not feel you would do the same but many people choose not to be as intelligent as you but true of heart anywayz.

Your ideal you are promoting is the same ideal my father was working from that caused these actions.

Both of you share the same orientation of thought about this subject. The ramifications from this are wide and varied. It needs to stop. It causes somepeople to feel safe in abusing gay people. This is propogating fear and untruths.

[HiveRadical]

RE: "The very doctors..."

I don't get this, you say that I've not referenced any scientific facts but previously you acknowledge that I've referred to doctors. If the 'non-monogamy' rate among gay male couples (self reported at over 80%) is not a fact then what is? (and why is it presently used in psychology texts for college students at Harvard & Yale and other universities?)

**%

[HiveRadical]

**% And if me not agreeing with the doctors is irrelevant. One needs but see the history of Angiogenesis in relation the whole of the Cancer research establishment to see how untenable such reasoning is.

[HiveRadical]

CORRECTION ON "**% And if me not agreeing with the doctors is irrelevant"

meant to say

"And me not agreeing with the doctors is irrelevant."

And if you've not seen the history of the discovery of angiogenesis in relation to cancer I'd recommend looking into it. A lowly surgeon with no training the science of cancer defies the whole establishment to reveal one of the most significant changes in Cancer science ever. Cancer scientists/doctors throughout the field wouldn't even READ his papers.

[HiveRadical]

RE: "The guts it takes..."

You're making my point. By invoking 'guts''intestinal fortitude' you are inherently invoking the fact that a person is SELF REPRESSING some natural desire. The fact that a person chooses one side and not another does not alter the potential outcomes inherent in self-doubting and all other aspects of societal dynamics that play into the personal vs cultural melee.

Again, self repression is not inherently a bad thing, and in fact is the BASIS for any kind of society.

[HiveRadical]

RE "The reverberations of self repression based on sexual orientation ... seen to be ugly, bad, wrong, indecent, deviate, insane and the rest."

The same argument could be made for any number of sexual choices, or non-sexual choices. Self repression of pornography could be said to lead to the same things. Or self-repression of the desire for kids to fit in. You see either way you go humans are choosing what parts of their natures they will or will not repress. Self repression is vital to life.

[zortnac]

"Self repression is vital to life."

And repression of such a fundamental part of one's self, because it is shunned, while witnessing everyone else in society not only be free to enjoy that part of themselves but also be encouraged to do so, is detrimental to self-esteem and a sense of sexual identity.

There is nothing vital to a person repressing their sexual orientation or trying to behave according to one that they don't have. It's effects are obvious and observable.

[HiveRadical]

got to run at present to get some stuff done, I will respond to your response.

[chalkers]

Thanks for answering some questions and giving more of an insight on where you are coming from. Will respond if I get chance tonight.

[HiveRadical]

And the reverberations will be real and profound. You'll notice in the replies to the most recent ad on teaching in the school that the way the 'No on 8' side is wording things has TONS of wiggle room. Their reference to the opt out options do not come close to addressing the whole of the issue. They get past to calling the Yes's claims as lies by finding technicalities, like the fact that 4% of schools aren't required to teach marriage, as loop holes for their lambasting and defamation of Yes.

[HiveRadical]

Point of clarification--The reply I'm referencing is the press conference with the Principle and the two mothers demanding things from the Yes campaign regarding the images of their children.

[HiveRadical]

I think it's important to see the point that as far as immediate threat there's no clear domino falling. Many on the 'No on 8' side will say that it's a lie to say that this will result in infringements on religious or speech rights simply because there's not a clear immediate presentation of such a threat. The issue they don't see, or will not see, is that it fundamentally alters the whole of culture and jurisprudence 2 alter that single definition of marriage in such a way. It will reverberate