Did Christ Pay For The Sins Of Those In Hell? Re: mgreer511002 & winlightministries

[SwordofManticorE]

If you combine a carnal view to scripture with fear, blind ego, self-righteous pride, a hidden desire for vengeance and spark the religious engine with a pharisitical spirit. You get a determined believer of hell. To suppose that God would bring beings into existence for both His purpose and pleasure who He knew would be infinite losers by that existence, is to charge him with the utmost malignity. Christ saved us all from eternal sleep, not eternal torure.

[jehovahuponyou]

The obvious conclusion to UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT is UNIVERSAL SALVATION - not Salvation offered, but Salvation already paid for in 28AD by Christ's death, burial, and bodily resurrection - thus there is no one in Hell, for all will be in Heaven, even the non-Believers - UNIVERSALISM AT ITS BEST (WORST)!

GOOD VIDEO, 1689!

[1689Baptist]

@ele12957returns So where have you been, off on a healing trip to Africa?

[chefjimmie1]

Christ died and rose again as a GIFT to those who believe. If one doesn't believe, they don't receive the gift. Simple.

[greatestgiftis]

good vid, solid biblical truth

[thinkerj]

The false premise on which the doctrine of limited atonement rests is that there was a payment for sin made on the cross. Clue: there wasn't - neither was his death on the cross a so called "penal substitution". His death was a provision for salvation - no one is saved without faith.

[1689Baptist]

@thinkerj How are you doing Charles Finney. Do you also hold to open theism? But you do have one thing right, no one is saved without faith.

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@ParticularBaptist God Bless

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@ParticularBaptist I cannot get complete comments down to 500 words or less, I had to edit down my last comment alot to get it to post. If you ever change your mind you know where to find me.

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@ParticularBaptist I am not up for a formal debate, that would consist of a moderator, and a time limit. If you would like to discuss monergism, and synergism... again you have the graces of starting of the discussion. I will send you a link. As far as prevenient grace, of course I do, I fall in line with Augustine

"Augustine held that ‘the will is prepared by God’ by prevenient grace alone."

Ferguson, S. B., & Packer, J. (2000). New dictionary of theology (636).

[BurningLove17]

What is that music you are playing in this video? I've heard it before and I think its pretty cool.

[jacksmack77]

Particularbaptist. That was pathetic, ipso facto it epitomized 'pathos.' Revelation 22:17. Why would regenerate people thirst for spiritual life when they already possess it 1 John 5:12. Do they need more of it? All you Calvies want to do is argue and analyze God's word. I will not be accepting nor will I be reciprocating to anymore of any of your comments. Don't bother with a rejoinder it will go unrequited henceforward. Fare-thee-well.

[Blogrich55]

@jacksmack77 "Revelation 22:17. Why would regenerate people thirst for spiritual life when they already possess it"

And why would spiritual dead people thirst for any thing? It is the Holy Spirit who makes a fallen sinner thirst for the fountain of life and He regenerates the dead sinner and draw him to Christ, Jack. God bless.

[JesusforLife2]

@jacksmack77 [All you Calvies want to do is argue and analyze God's word]

Lol???? So analyzing God's word = bad? No wonder why you are a quack! Good thing we aren't on your channel or videos because you would be banning everyone who questions jacksmackism.

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@ParticularBaptist A debate is a discussion (if) you show the love of Christ. Also there is nothing new under the son, as the scriptures say. But I am positive that you have not heard every argument.

God Bless

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@ParticularBaptist So how bout that discussion?

[prettylola1]

solid refutation!

[droptozro]

@ParticularBaptist

Yeah I agree with that. 1 John 2:19 is speaking of false Gnostic teachers... those who from the beginning didn't even believe Jesus was in the flesh, of course having the wrong "Jesus" would mean they were never saved to begin with... how could they be saved? The point from the shipwreck was someone could have faith and fall away...  I know our underlying differences are at what the cross truly accomplished, so it won't be reconciled in other areas.

[droptozro]

@ParticularBaptist

Yes... agreed with Romans 8:1-2--but there's a condition in that statement, "who walk not..." For if you read on in Romans 8 you can clearly see that one can still live after the flesh and die(verse 13)---otherwise this admonition wouldn't even need to be said to believers. If your future debt is auto-paid also--this alludes to you not being able to truly sin after conversion--for sin separates you from God and it's wages are death, but you believe you cannot die again.

[droptozro]

@ParticularBaptist

Hmm... don't know why someone marked your other comment as spam. Ultimately I would agree that EVERYTHING is a gift from God, for I do not truly own a thing--naked we came in, naked we go out.... right? The point was, it's given to you--so it's your faith, as a gift also.

Hebrews 7 is only outlining that He is the final sacrifice... that doesn't say all your future sins(in our tense, not God's) are auto-forgiven. It's just to say Jews don't have to continue sacrifices.

[FORMETOKNOWONLY]

It appears this message is being taken out of context...I mean with such a short clip being played.

Man, it seems all you guys do is run about telling people (especially new believers) that they believed wrong and are not saved.

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@ParticularBaptist I am truly sorry to hear that you are not available to discuss the scripture that you quoted. If you change your mind you have the link

forum.divinesoteriologyDOTcom/ viewtopic.php?f=12&t=274&sid=4 2b6f01b6dea2b701067e133fe75c7e e

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@ParticularBaptist I have no idea what you are referring to with that scripture reference. I am assuming that you mean 1 Cor 2:14. If so I would be happy to do a full length debate on the subject with you I will send you the link in email where we can post the debate. You can grace me with the first post on the thread, and I will respond.

God Bless

[droptozro]

Just another add on too brothers---thanks for the calm discourse and discussion. I know correction is loving and our attempt to help one another grow and learn about God should be our proper intent. Obviously we disagree, but this is what helps us learn about one another's positions so there's no straw-men or mis-representations. God bless

[droptozro]

@ParticularBaptist

*edit* 1 Peter 1:9 also says "your faith"

Yes.. the debt's been paid, still doesn't mean what you're reading into it. I don't have a debt for things I haven't done yet. I get in debt by going to get a loan or using a credit card..in God's manner I can get in debt by going back into sin and not confessing as 1 John admonishes us to. Can you show me a Scripture that says your personal future debt is already paid? And then respond why does 2 Peter 1:9 only mention "past sins?"

[droptozro]

@ParticularBaptist

Okay.. so either way, it now points the whole phrase according to your Greek knowledge, what changes? It is still rephrasing that salvation is a gift from God in his grace that is accessed by faith... whose faith? God's faith? Or your faith? If it's not our faith, then why are the Scriptures littered with words attained to "our faith?"

Why would Paul admonish others not to shipwreck their faith? Wouldn't Paul be going against God's will should it be that they fall away?

[jacksmack77]

ParticularBaptist. I teach Jesus is the author of our faith. Hebrews 12:2. 1 Peter 1:21. I teach salvation comes simultaneously by faith in the finished work of the cross. Ephesians 1:13. Actually the Bible teaches this. Luke 8:13. John 3:36. 1 John 5:1. The testimony was a hyperbolic joke taking LS doctrine to an extreme. Why don't you listen to some of my longer sermons instead of just the ones attacking Calvinism?

[1689Baptist]

@jacksmack77 You are confused, you can't have Jesus as the author of our faith and then having us choosing to have faith or not. The two are incompatible.

[1689Baptist]

Also I forgot, Jesus is not only the author of our faith, He is also the FINISHER, that means HE FINISHES what He starts, You have Christ authoring faith all over the place but never finishing. If anyone can reject the Faith Jesus authors and goes to hell then Christ did not finish what He authored, and that is directly against Heb.12:2.

[innocenceagain]

I hear "Christ died for even those in hell" constantly--I've also heard "even Satan can repent, we should pray for his salvation", or "you can repent even after you are in hell at anytime. so eventually everyone will be in heaven IF they choose Christ because Christ died for those in hell"--but they argue they aren't universalist because they 'chose' Christ with their 'free will' even in hell..---> heresy plain and simple right there...*facepalm*.....

Great video

[jacksmack77]

Particularbaptist. I am only hostile toward your man-made god who is NOT the God of the Bible. Isaiah 53:6. Christ died for the sins of us all. Everyone! I don't teach universalism. I teach whosoever will let him come and take the gift of life freely. Revelation 22:17. It's called the Bible!

[Itrytotestify]

"Jesus only potentially died for me!" Seems odd, eh?

[jacksmack77]

They are there because they rejected the payment! John 3:36. The god of Calvinism isn't worth spitting on!

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@jacksmack77 That is not a legal reason. If someone buys you a house, and you reject it, the house is still in your name. There is no legal reason that you cannot live in it, at anytime you can move in. So the people in hell, can they at anytime decide to go to heaven?

[1689Baptist]

@DIVINESOTERIOLOGY Brother, he can't answer this question.

[jacksmack77]

1689baptist. Did Christ pay for the sins of those in hell? Yes. Why are they there? Because they wouldn't accept the free payment. 2 Peter 2:1. by their unbelief although paid for they rejected the payment. You are a confused devil who iconizes who you serve. The devil not God. 1 Corinthians 14:33.

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@jacksmack77 If there sins are paid for, what legal reason are they there?

[1689Baptist]

@jacksmack77 You said, "You are a confused devil who iconizes who you serve" This video is concise and logical there is nothing confusing about it, you just HATE the message as does you father the devil b/c you can't refute the message. 2Peter 2:1 does not help your case, I already have a video on this verse watch it and learn. 2Peter 2:1 does not nullify all the verses I quote in the video where Christ died for the many not ALL. Did you watch the video or are you just running your mouth?

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

Did Christ die to pay for sins or to become the payment for sins?

[theocratickingdom30]

What an absolutely terrifying thought. The people in hell have their sins forgiven? If that's the case then what genuine hope do I have for trusting Christ. If He couldn't save them then how do I have any assurance He can save me? And since when is unbelief some separate category of sin for which Christ didn't atone for? There are so many errors in that preachers statements. Good job 1689Baptist!!! Slam dunk refutation!!!

[droptozro]

@ParticularBaptist

I think it's amazing how you read into "It is finished"... it says nothing of the sort of "paid in full" anywhere, and to claim that would be purely reading into the words.

As for Eph 2:8, it's a mis-application of what the "gift" is... grace is the gift, not the faith. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves..." The object of "that" is grace, not faith. read it slowly. Faith is the means through which "that" (grace) is attained.

[droptozro]

@ParticularBaptist

Also brother--I just re-read through my comment and realized it could be mis-construed as condescending when I said "read it slowly"--I don't mean it that way. I just think people often read through that Scripture quickly and don't take the time to see what words apply to what when Paul's speaking... it wasn't meant to be in that manner... text can be easily misunderstood.. God bless

[1689Baptist]

@droptozro You are wrong about Eph.2:8 in Greek grammar FAITH must be the gift, and besides that it would be redundant to call grace a gift.

[ronathanedwards]

@1689Baptist I get where you are going with this. However, grace IS a part of the gift. Salvation, Grace and faith IS the gift. The neuter in-capsulizes the whole phrase. They can NOT be distinguished, or separated. Faith however is a gift. Christ's death was a covenant act. Many don't understand what Christ did on the cross because they don't understand the oaths and rituals of a covenant. Christ died to guarantee faith for those whom He died. He died for those whom the father has given Him.

[1689Baptist]

@ronathanedwards Yes I have this explanation by James White of Eph.2:8 I even have a video uploaded with this explanation, then awhile back I read Gordon H. Clark (he was also a Greek scholar) he explained it a little differently, I thought Clark made a little more sense. Either way Faith is the gift that part they can't get around. But which one is right White, or Clark, I don't know, I am not a Greek scholar?

[ronathanedwards]

@1689Baptist How does he explain it?

[1689Baptist]

@ronathanedwards I need to go find it again so I can answer correctly. But I went back and listened to Whites interpretation now I am torn. LOL. Here is the name of my video from White, "James White, FAITH IS A GIFT FROM GOD, Eph.2 8-10"

[ronathanedwards]

@1689Baptist I haven't listened to Clark, but I agree totally with White, not because he said so, but my knowledge of the Greek (7 years now) leads me STRONGLY to the same conclusion as White's. I don't know what Clark would say that is any different, if he says it's any one of the three or just excludes one, I have a VERY hard problem with that.

[thinkerj]

@1689Baptist : No, it does not follow from the grammar of Eph 2:8 that faith is the gift. Paul uses the neutral demonstrative "touto", and faith (pistis) is a feminine word, which means that the "gift" must refer to the salvific work of God, including his extended grace.

[1689Baptist]

@thinkerj Please watch my video "James White, FAITH IS A GIFT FROM GOD, Eph.2 8-10"

[droptozro]

1) "Christ drank it all"---Christ drank all of what?

2) This entire issue you have between yourself and others(and myself), stems at the view of the cross. I see it as applicable, for once a person has repentance and faith in the work of Christ on the cross their sins have been paid for... and Calvinists see it as applicable back then at the moment on the cross when Christ died. Essentially, you were never on your way to hell. What need is there to be saved for you were chosen?

[1689Baptist]

@droptozro You said, "1) "Christ drank it all"---Christ drank all of what?" Christ drank all of the wrath God the Father had stored up for the individual saved. If I was never on the way to hell then what wrath did Christ drink?

[droptozro]

@1689Baptist

Christ drank all the wrath of God? What Scripture says that? I presume you mean the cup in the Garden of Gethsemane He spoke about, correct?

If I'm wrong correct me, but isn't that cup the same cup that Jesus said both the apostles John and James would drink in Matthew 20:22-23? So did John and James also drink the wrath of God? Did they take the wrath of God also for your sins? That sounds consistent if that's what you believe, but it cannot possibly be true.

[1689Baptist]

@droptozro The Apostles drank of the cup of physical persecution, this was not the cup Christ was agonizing over in the Garden. Remember they all slept while Christ was agonizing, I believe God did this on purpose b/c Christ had to bear this cup alone. Psa 75:8-11:6 For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup... Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. Isa 51:17...hand of the LORD the cup of his fury;

[droptozro]

@1689Baptist

If it's not the same cup... then why did Jesus say it was the same exact cup that He would drink of? What Scripture in the NT or prophecy fully alludes to your claim that there is 2 cups now? One of wrath and one of physical persecution? I only see of one of man's persecution, and this is what Paul claims multiple times--the Jews are the ones who killed Jesus. What Scripture says Jesus drank the wrath of God?

[1689Baptist]

@droptozro Are you really going to say that Christ the captain of our salvation was cowering in the Garden b/c He feared the physical pain of the cross, when just a few years latter His followers would go to their crosses sing praises? No way! If you do a search on cup in the Bible you will find several cups, Joy, wrath, etc.. Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise (to crumble, bruise, beat to pieces, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite) him. The Father did this.

[droptozro]

@1689Baptist

I'm well aware of Isaiah 53 and other cups brother-but you and I both know God did not literally come down and do these things. The Bible is full of metonymy--and this is metonymy of subject. There are multiple other Scriptures I'm sure you're aware--even Jesus admits that "MEN" are going to take Him, beat Him, and crucify Him.

It's not about what I say either, it's about what Scripture says--if it's not the same cup, show me verse? Jesus said they'd drink the same cup as Him.

[DIVINESOTERIOLOGY]

@droptozro Your right. The elect have no need for justification because they have been justified back at the cross. It does not make much sense to me. How I understand it Christ is the mercy seat. When he died on the cross he became to payment for sin. Christ becoming our substitute comes by faith, not by election, although some do tie faith, and election together. When we trust, or place our hand on the sacrifice his obedience is applied to us, his perfect sacrifice is applied to us.

[1689Baptist]

@ParticularBaptist I don't know, I have been through it twice and it has worked fine for me. Rich just told me it worked fine for him?? I don't know what to say.