I love how people will debate the source of the texts but forget the obvious problems. Not one historian, or person who could write saw all these dead saints raise from the dead and thought, hmmmm, maybe I should jot this down, people might want to know about this some day. The only reference to that EVER is in the bible? Really. That doesn't make any sense at all. You can find records of how much oil was in town, but not something substantially bigger in importance?
@djsvain How much oil was in what town & when? You don't know do you! ha ha. Are YOU NOT AWARE of the dozens of MISTAKES Daivd Fitzgeard makes in this video? Either he is a f*ing liar or more likely, he is just quoting Jesus myth crack heads who wrote before him & that is why he makes the same mistakes. And I have NO degree at all & with just a computer & about 20 books by PhD level experts in this field, I can refute Fitzgearld WITH THE FACTS!! all damn day.
@boblackey1 Even if everything else he said is a lie, that bit is fact. Look at the improbability of such fantastic and amazing things happening and they are only ever recorded in one place. The bible. Zombie saints, angels descending from the heavens, the voice of God booming down to tell people he is proud of his son, who is him. That last part in itself is pretty vein isn't it. You are right, I don't know how much oil was in town on that day. I am not a historian.
@djsvain The conservative scholars (who also are believers in Christianity) have ways to explain why only a select few at Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist heard God's voice. And don't forget, Jesus is also God, not created but from everlasting to everlasting, one substance with his father. So it IS very complicated & theologians have written volumes over the centuries to explain the Trinity, virgin birth, salvation by Jesus' death on the cross etc.
@boblackey1 Yeah, I find that it is complicated to be a joke in itself. God created flawed beings with limited understanding, yet gives us teachings that must be explained rather than simply read. Of course all the people who try to explain it never agree entirely on the subject hence the reason for multiple different forms of Christianity. Of course you overlook these obvious problems and continue your faith in something so uncertain or provable.
@djsvain Are you addressing me? I thought I said before that I was raised in a family they went to a protestant church but that early on, I became an agnostic about my faith but I'm 50/50 as to God existing. I think there is a decent shot that some high intelligence outside space & time caused the big bang & worked out the laws of nature & physics. There are MANY scientists who figure that kind of God or creative force exists. Nobody knows how life or the universe got here. NOBODY!!
@djsvain Christians say htose fantastic & amazing things are recorded my multiple eyewitnesses. The four gospel writers, the author of Hebrews, the epistles of Paul, Peter, John, Jude & Christian writings that didn't make the cut when the canon of Scripture was closed. The reason conservative experts & believers in general TRASH critical/liberal scholars is because they REJECT 85% of the gospel story as myth & legend. Tall tales spun about Jesus of Nazareth who headed a Jewish cult
@boblackey1 of course again God would choose to leave people out in the cold about his existence instead of just letting everybody know and ending the debate once and for all. All powerful being demanding love and loyalty without giving anybody a real reason to give it.
@djsvain The God that exists that caused the big bang (as you know, time, energy, matter AND EVEN A PLACE TO BE LOCATED..SPACE, all began just 13.5 billion years ago), the God the created the universe & probably life too may not even know we are on the earth! Or if he knows, he may not care what we do. Einstein, Hoyle, Burbidge, Kaku, Davies, Wichramasinghe & several other noted scientists hold that view.
@djsvain Also it is surprising to me "how much of David Fitzgearld's presentation is wrong & contrary to THE facts & how much wrong information (mistakes) he passes on from others who wrote before him who support the Jesus myth position". Fitzpatrick is NOT a good historian. I suggest he didn't do ANY research on his own but just borrowed from other Jesus myth authors including their mistakes!
@boblackey1 Do you say this because you are some sort of biblical historian? Or are you saying it because you believe what other Christian biblical historians say(borrowing their research with all it's flaws). There are thousands of flaws in the bible that you and other Christians willingly overlook because to face reality is too damn scary for them. What you fail to realize is that reality is a freeing thing. Finally knowing that the world is what you make of it good or bad, your choice.
@djsvain NO! I was raised in a Christian family & in a protestant church but early, as a teen, became an agnostic. I'm in my 60's now. About 10/12 years ago, a friend gave me a book claiming Jesus never lived. The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty. But I noticed Earl was NOT a scholar/expert in the field & had NO PhD or any degree that I could find. Just the head of the Canadian Humanists Society. I had never head of such a thing. So I collected books by over a dozen experts on...
@djsvain experts on Christian/New Testament origins by critical/liberal PhD level authors. Also Doherty claimed both of the passages in Josephus that mentioned Jesus were forged by a lying Christian. So I also consulted the most noted Josephus scholar in the world, Louis Feldman, Phd at New York University who is a Jew & swapped some Email with him & Dr. Feldman also suggested I get a book by a lady I'd never heard of called "Josephus on Jesus" by Alice Whealey, PhD.
@djsvain Both Feldman & Whealey hold that Josephus wrote two passages about Jesus but the longer one, the TF, contains some minor tampering. And only ONE PhD level critical scholar who DOUBTS NOT REJECTS a historical Jesus out of well over 16 scholars who are NOT Christian. The I consulted the scholars at the liberal Jesus Seminar, the one's still living, and found the same thing. Jesus Christ is a myth but Jesus of Nazareth DID live & was indeed executed by Pilate as the gospels say!
David Fitzgeard is a FUCKING LIAR and is spreading so much false information in the lecture he should have is fucking face slapped!!! I am so fucking tired of the Jesus myth crowd being loose w/ facts
@gr8vibes2 Dr. James M. McGarth, who is a New Testament expert, has refuted David and the Jesus myth position as being untenable as well as Erhman, Crosson, Mack, Edwards, Miller and many others. The historical evidence for a historical Jesus is scanty but there is enough to show that the gospels based the myths & legends that developed about Jesus on a historical figure. About 13 % of Jesus quotes are likely from him and his execution by Pilate is held by experts to be a FACT!
13% of his quotes? From the inerrant word of god? You realize you just told us that at minimum 87% of the freaking BIBLE can reasonably be regarded as bullshit. If they can't get 87% of the saying of Jesus right, how in the world can they be regarded as accurate with regard to everything else?
@middlekk Your problem is NOT with me but with the EXPERTS in Christian origins & New Testament origins who are agnostic, atheist or Jewish. I can give you a list of well over 300 names of PhD skeptical experts who make it clear that Fitzgearld and Jesus myth supporters are WRONG. It's impossible for that to be correct. Even the scholars David quotes for support hold that Jesus existed but David failed to mention that so fuck him! He is not honest but like a conspiracy nut! Its BS.
@middlekk If you would read, for example, Burton L. Mack's (Dr. Mack is an atheist) "Who Wrote the New Testament, the Making of the Christian Myth" or Dr. Losey's critique of how John's gospel came to read as it does today or Jewish expert Hyram Maccoby, PhD works on Paul? More on Paul.
@middlekk Paul wrote Galatians most experts say about 50 or 60 CE. In it he claims he went to Jerusalem and finally met two of the leaders of the Jerusalem church. Peter and Jesus brother James. But Paul NEVER wrote one word about the virgin birth in ANY of his letters. Did Peter & James not tell Paul about such an unusual event? Or did Paul not think it worth mentioning? Or did the doctrine NOT exist then? See how they squeeze out what is historical, what is myth or likely legend.
It's quite likely that Paul never believed in the existence of corporeal Jesus at all.
No kidding, you're digging deeper holes. You just declared that Luke -- the "greatest historian of all time" -- begins his hagiography with a clear myth. How does that make anything he says that follows more credible? Doesn't.
A scant few years ago, no one believed in the tectonic plate theory, either. Now, it's established fact.
@middlekk "It's quite likely that Paul never believed in the existence of corporeal Jesus at all". That is one of the most stupid statements the Jesus myth crowd makes. It is just laughable to the experts who work in the field of Christian & NT origins. It shows just how radical & ignorant of the facts & work of those in the field who HAVE THE CREDENTIALS TO SPEAK WITH INTELLIGENCE ON THIS SUBJECT. There is so much evidence in Paul's letters that Jesus lived on earth it's absurd!
@middlekk Tectonic plate theory is vastly different from holding a position that the scholarly world, the PhD level historians & scholars working on Christian origins & New Testament origins will, someday, switch to the position that today is only held by a minority of atheist amateurs with NO degree & unqualified to teach Christian origins at any university, that Jesus never existed. That will never happened because ALL the facts available to scholars today shows that he DID exist!!
What facts? There are none. None of the so-called gospels were written by eyewitnesses. Luke himself says he wasn't an eyewitness, only an historian. No present-at-the-time eyewitness claims to have seen him.
I think it's likely the Jesus character is a concatenation of many Messianic preachers of the day -- including John the Baptist, who we can place at that time. But a "real" Jesus? Nope. Not one shred of credible evidence to support that contention.
@middlekk Atheist Frank Zindler claims John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth AND Paul never existed. You know what. I just checked and Frank Zindler doesn't exist either. Isn't that odd. John the Baptist didn't exist & Jesus & Josephus wrote about both men. Maybe Josephus didn't exist! There are NO eyewitnesses or any "present-at-the-time writers" who report ONE WORD about Josephus. Every written page about Josephus come AFTER he wrote his work. We don't know when he died or was buried.
Heh. Lame, dude. You still haven't brought a shred of credible evidence that this Jesus fellow actually existed.
Josephus was mentioned many times in the historical records, and we have ... wait ... surviving documents written by him!
What did Jesus write? Anything? The living god - didn't write one word on his own behalf? How lame is that? Was your Jesus illiterate? An omniscient, omnipotent being? Who couldn't write?
@middlekk Anything on Josephus written DURING his supposed lifetime? Anything on Pilate written DURING his supposed lifetime? Oh and WAIT we have surviving documents written by Paul & two brothers of Jesus; James & Jude. Oh that is right. Frank Zindler, Acharya S & Ken Humphreys (all without a degree) have decided that Paul really didn't write anything & never existed. Well I've decided that Josephus didn't write anything & never existed.
@middlekk You are clearly IGNORANT!! Ignorant of the facts that have been formulated by skeptical scholars & historians WITH a PhD that shows that Jesus DID exist. I strongly suggest you read Tabor, Ehrman, Crosson, Borg, Miller, Edwards, Mack & other skeptical experts & let go of this Fitzgearld guy who hasn't a good argument about any of the conclusions of the REAL experts. Why is it that supposed intelligent human beings are suckered by QUACK like Fitzgearld?
@middlekk There is LESS information about John the Baptist than Jesus. So how is it you contend John the Baptist existed? Who ARE the Messianic preachers that we CAN place in the early first century in that part of the world? Well the one with that enjoys the most notice is Jesus of Nazareth. You know the some of the Jesus myth nuts also claim Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus' "supposed" life time. They always say "supposed" life time or "supposed" death. What idiots!
Well, you can actually look at the video to see which Messianic preachers actually were noticed at the time...but you've not even bothered to do that.
You're really digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself.
Why would an all-powerful deity leave less historical evidence for his existence that JtB?
@middlekk Oh so the video takes note of the Messianic preachers that were actually noticed at the time yet MAKES THE CRAZY CLAIM THAT JESUS NEVER EXISTED!!! There is far more written evidence for Jesus than ANY of the other Messianic preachers. And it is a fucking LIE that there is MORE evidence for JtB than Jesus. That is the kind of mistakes one makes when listening to quacks like Fitzgearld rather than reading the experts with a PhD in the field of Christian & NT origin.
@middlekk Yes he was one of them. Josephus mentions him twice & Tacitus once as does Pliny & the amount of Christian writings that are outside the New Testament which date to the time is staggering. It is "hyper-skepticism" which is silly, akin to rejecting man walked on the moon or 9/11 was an inside job, to hold Jesus was invented whole-cloth. There is no reason & not enough time for that to happen. There is NO question people who reject a historical Jesus are NUTS & being silly.
Jesus was invented as a heavenly intercessor by a Jewish sect that did not feel they were worthy to pray to Yahweh himself. The Hellenists grew him into a "real boy", just like Pinocchio.
Seriously, you haven't yet offered one shred of evidence that wasn't directly refuted by this video -- and many, many other credible sources. I know you have a hard-on against this guy -- but he's hardly alone in questioning the historicity of Jesus.
@middlekk Are you living on fucking Pluto? There is NOTHING in this video that has refuted a damn thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOTHING!!! This poor video is so full of lies & mistakes that if it were not so pitiful it would be on the comedy channel for all who have studied this subject to laugh at until their sides popped open. There are NO experts with credentials in this field who question the historicity of Jesus except two out of well over 1,000 working today & thousands in the past.
@middlekk I suggest YOU are ignorant of the FACTS in this fuss as you seem to be unaware of the many mistakes in this video. I'll give you just one of over a dozen examples. Ftizgearld says early Christian apologist Origen reported Josephus didn't mention Jesus in his writings. The truth is Origen quoted the shorter James passage three times & actually wrote Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah! That is such a crucial mistake, how can you trust anything this bozo says???
@middlekk This video hasn't refuted ANYTHING!! Not even close! And looks so feeble & pitiful when put next to the works of Bart Ehrman, PhD, Burton L. Mack, PhD, John Dominic Crosson, PhD, Robert Miller, PhD, James Tabor, PhD, Louis Feldman, PhD, Alice Whealey, PhD, Hyram Maccoby, PhD, Johnathan Z. Smith, PhD etc. And excuse me, which university does Fitzgearld teach Christian origins? Is it Harvard? Virginia Tech? New York University? Where is he a professor?
@middlekk It's not a logical fallacy at all. When one takes what evidence exists about Jesus of Nazareth which an atheist/agnostic or believer in another faith CAN accept & string all the dots together, then Jesus very likely existed. When skeptics strip away what is held as incredible & myth from the gospels, a layer of original Jesus tradition is exposed which shows only a man. As the gospels evolved, if they had removed all the embarrassing material, critical scholars would be dead.
@middlekk The Jesus myth theory is DEAD. It just doesn't fit the facts. When one takes ALL the available facts together, there is little doubt that Jesus existed, actually spoke words that are recorded in books (The liberal Jesus Seminar says about 13% of his gospel quotes were actually said by Jesus) & was executed by Pilate about 29 CE. And this idea that the TF in Josephus' work is a forgery collapses when carefully examined. See wwwDOTjosephusDOTorg for absolute proof!
@middlekk No I'm NOT a loser. I'm in agreement with every critical/liberal experts out there except one or two (Robert Price, PhD & Richard Carrier, PhD) that a historical Jesus existed. There is just too much data/evidence, that when taken together, makes it very likely that such a character existed, had a ministry & a small following, taught the Lord's prayer, the sermon on the mount, the kingdom of God is with in you & was executed by Pilate under the reign of Tiberius abut 29CE.
@middlekk Also historians don't need eyewitness corroboration to understand certain facts about a historical person. Indeed almost ALL persons believed to have existed in the early first century have NO such luxury either. Who wrote about Josephus or Pilate or Paul or Tacitus or almost everyone who lived then while they were alive? But I hold that we come very close to that standard with Jesus of Nazareth. Paul met James (Jesus' brother) & Peter. Also Polycarp met John who knew Jesus.
@middlekk Also historians don't need eyewitness corroboration to understand certain facts about a historical person. Indeed almost ALL persons believed to have existed in the early first century have NO such luxury either. Who wrote about Josephus or Pilate or Paul or Tacitus or almost everyone who lived then while they were alive? But I hold that we come very close to that standard with Jesus of Nazareth. Paul met James (Jesus' brother) & Peter. Also Polycarp met John who knew Jesus.
@gr8vibes2 All four gospels, the non canonical gospel of Thomas, the early church fathers, Josephus, Tacitus, Paul etc etc all agree that Pilate executed Jesus and experts find the date to be around 29/30 CE. In short, the view that Jesus never existed is rejected by well over 1,000 skeptical experts in the world working today and is very likely bull shit.
Did you not watch the video? He addressed your points. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" doesn't help your cause.
@middlekk David Fitzgearld is ignorant of the reasons that his theory can't be correct. He stands almost alone. NO experts agree with him. One has to turn to amateurs such as Acharya S or Earl Doherty or Frank Zindler (all radical atheists) and NONE have a PhD in Christian origins or New Testament origins just like Fitzgearld. Jesus execution by Pilate for example is held by 99.9 % of experts as a historical FACT. All 4 gospels, non canonical gospels,Josephus, Tacitus etc etc etc.
@boblackey1 "NONE have a PhD in Christian origins"
What does that mean when all you have is words. You have to prove the originators weren't propagandists. Today's Jesus PhD Christians could be propagandists too. Who knows, you could be one yourself. My stance is that much of the bible alone doesn't make any sense, you don't need to look elsewhere. The bible is its worse enemy.
@gr8vibes2 Devout Christians, Catholic, protestant & orthodox, all claim the Bible makes perfect sense. Maybe you don't understand the Bible. What is it that doesn't make sense? Also I'm not quoting or talking about CHRISTIAN PhD experts but skeptical/agnostic/atheist New Testament & Christian experts. The skeptic experts & Christian experts disagree on about 80 % of their positions. Most skeptics only hold that Jesus was executed by Pilate about 30CE & only said 14% of his quotes.
@middlekk Catholics & Protestants do NOT have vastly different bibles! Who in the hell told you that? The gospels & the rest of the New Testament is exactly the same. The New Testament contains lots of information which is historical. For example Pilate executed Jesus. Find a historian with a PhD who rejects that? Your theory is as bad as the lawyers for O. J. Simpson claiming 100 LA polices officers worked together to frame O. J. You are fooling with a radical FOOL with Fitzgearld.
There's no historical evidence that Pilate executed Jesus. None whatsoever. Find me the execution orders. Find me a contemporaneous eyewitness account. Not Josephus, who was born AFTER the events in question. Or any of the others.
You can't, because the evidence doesn't exist.
Might as well be talking about Hercules holding the Earth on his shoulders.
@middlekk Your view that there is NO historical evidence that Pilate executed Jesus is absurd. There isn't a PhD historian in the WORLD who holds such a view. If one exists, I have never heard of him/her. The "myth" wack-o's use to claim Pilate himself probably never existed too. Nobody ALIVE when he lived or ruled wrote ONE LINE about him. Nobody knows when he died or is buried. But when they found a stone in Israel dedicated to Pilate, the hyper skeptics decided he probably did exist
@middlekk All of the gospels report Jesus was executed by PILATE. Several gospels & epistles which were rejected for the canon of the NT report Jesus was executed by Pilate. Josephus says that & so does Tacitus who reports that Chrestus (sic), the origin of the name Christian which was an evil cult & superstition suffered the extreme penalty by Pilate, that the superstition was checked for awhile but broke out again & spread to Rome. Most historians hold Tacitus was a careful writer.
Try again. Someone who was there. Eyewitness. None of the Gospel "writers" count -- they weren't there. Nor was Josephus. Nor was Tacitus. Nor was Origen. Nor was Polycarp.
@middlekk Who says NONE of the gospel writers count? Fitzgearld? You think I'm going to place my bets on something that amateur QUACK, who dosen't even have a PhD in this or any field (I can find NO evidence he has a PhD as a historian.) Many scholars hold that the epistle of James was actually written by Jesus' BROTHER & pre-dates Paul's letter. True some hold that James wrote the original document & it was later polished by another writer but SO WHAT?
Nope. None of the people who compiled the gospel accounts were there. History shows that they were written down perhaps a hundred years after the events in question. It's akin to my claiming the Wright Brothers weren't the first to fly an airplane because I eyewitnessed someone flying a unicorn in 1910.
And you can't use a book of myths to validate a book of myths.
@middlekk That is a lie! Dr. Losey's critical examination of John's Gospel is sure it contains a core/foundational "historcial" bottom. That what we read today is DIFFERENT from the original John. What we read today has redactions, re-writes & interpolations on top of it. The oldest John fragment dates to 125 CE +/- 30 years. It could be 155 OR it could be 95! Maybe just one copy from the ORIGINAL!!!
@middlekk Many skeptical experts hold that the gospels, including the gospel of John, contain a core historical foundation AND SOME OF THE ACTUAL WORDS OF JESUS!! The skeptical Jesus Seminar collectively voted that about 14% of Jesus quotes in the gospels were ACTUALLY uttered by Jesus. If the band of atheist/agnostic scholars didn't believe Jesus existed, they would have voted ZERO with their colored marbles.
@middlekk The FACTS are the almost EVERY person believed to have existed who lived more than 1,000 years ago has NOTHING written about them during their lifetime. Indeed most first appear in the written record FAR longer than Jesus. Some well over a century or several centuries. Yet historians have NO problem holding that the person existed. Polycarp met John who met Jesus. Who are you calling a LIAR? Polycarp, John or both? The Jesus myth theory is a radical failure which is silly!!
@middlekk My grandfather met Josephs Boxall who was an officer on The Titanic. Boxall wasn't Captain Smith but he met, knew & saw Captain Smith & my grandfather wasn't on the Titanic & never met Captain Smith. But Officer Boxall certainly could pass on information about what Smith said. "what have we struck", according to Boxall, were the first words out of his mouth when he walked on the bridge. Polycarp met John who was a follower of Jesus. That is an important source yet BS to you.
Yes, that's correct. It's bullshit. Heresay evidence. Not admissable in court. Not admissable as historical evidence. Because it's not backed up by any credible contemporaneous eyewitness.
Smith could have said, "HOLY SHIT, WHAT WAS THAT" for all we know.
Original sources of eyewitnesses, please. Otherwise, it's just bullshit heresay.
@middlekk Well there isn't a fucking thing in David Fitzgeard's video, his lecture, that would stand up in court. He is NOT qualified to render a PROFESSIONAL opinion so the other attorney would jump all over that. Plus his so call evidence is riddled with mistakes, falsehoods & lies. The man didn't even take the time to check out his sources. I hope he didn't get paid for this. Somebody was had.
@middlekk And YOU find me an eyewitness to anything Josephus did or Paul did or Pilate did or John the Baptist did and on and on and on and on. Find me an eyewitness to anything Tacitus did. Find me an eyewitness to MOST persons believed to have lived 2000 years ago. We have James, John for Jesus & Paul & Polycarp for people who MET people who met Jesus. That is one reason skeptical/agnostic scholars all agree Jesus did exist as a man.
@middlekk Both Tacitus & Josephus were NOT Christians. Indeed Tacitus called Christianity "an evil superstition checked for awhile (after Jesus was executed by Pilate) but broke out again & spread to Rome". And he says Chrestus ( I'm told that Chrestus rather than Christ was common with Romans) was the origin of the name Christian and suffered the extreme penalty by Pilate LESS that 100 years AFTER Jesus' execution. It is being silly to challenge that. Hyper skepticism is usually wrong
@boblackey1 All non-biblical historians do is to parrot what these NT historians say, and almost all NT scholars (9 out of 10) are Christians. Ostracism from Peers & believers keep the few non-Christians NT professors operating within limits, i.e, Bart Ehrman expresses his concern with going too far in certain matters of religion: /watch?v=59txpioPYJI
The method of voting or rule by majority does not determine the validity of a person in history. Only compelling evidence does it.
@AgrippaTheMighty Your numbers are way off. It is more like 50/50. My library is full of works by historians/NT scholars who are NOT Christian. Burton L. Mack is an atheist. Ehrman is agnostic as is Tabor. Miller & Edwards are not believers. I find it odd Ehrman would worry about going too far. He is on the chopping block of believers world wide. Jesus wasn't virgin born, didn't rise from the dead, most of his quotes are forgeries, several of Paul's letters are forgeries.
Bob says: "Jesus wasn't virgin born, didn't rise from the dead, most of his quotes are forgeries, several of Paul's letters are forgeries."
I say: At least you're setting some things right. One small step to the honest truth -- there's no compelling evidence of a "real" Jesus at all. He's likely a fiction made of whole cloth, embellished by tales of real Messianic preachers of the day.
@AgrippaTheMighty The evidence IS compelling. That fact that Josephus mentioned Jesus twice (the TF in NOT a forgery), Tacitus once, Paul in 50 CE meets Peter and Jesus' own brother who knew Jesus, Polycarp met John & wrote John met & heard Jesus, items in the gospels deemed embarrassing by skeptical scholars which wouldn't make since if Jesus was COMPLETELY MADE UP. Pliny complaining the Christians sing hymns to Christ as if he is a God early on Sunday morning etc etc.
They don't call it "forgery". They use the kinder word "interpolation". Which means "later insertion of text." Careful scholars agree that the TF is a forgery, and the second mention isn't your Yeshua (Joshua). It was a common name -- as common as Mohammed is today.
@middlekk THAT IS A FUCKING LIE!!! AND DAVID FITZGEARLD IS A FUCKING LIAR WHO IS SO FULL OF SHIT THAT I WILL TELL HIM NOSE TO NOSE AND FACE TO FACE WHEN I GET A CHANCE TO SEE HIM IN PERSON. THERE ARE DOZENS OF EXAMPLES OF OUT RIGHT LIES IN HIS LECTURE!!! It's also a fucking lie that "careful scholars" all agree the TF is a forgery. The BEST Josephus scholars IN THE WORLD reject the forgery theory!! Feldman, Whealey, Goldberg etc 5 to 1 REJECT THE FORGERY THEORY & Fitzgearld is a LIAR
@AgrippaTheMighty To COMPLETELY DISMISS Jesus as a historical person by the Jesus myth crowd is HYPER SKEPTICISM and it silly as it goes beyond reason. For example, every arrogant nut who wants to argue Jesus & Paul never existed insists that they need to have someone outside Christianity mention then in writing WHILE THEY ARE ALIVE. 20 years later, 60 years later is rejected yet that is the case with ALMOST EVERYONE who lived over 1,000 years ago.
@AgrippaTheMighty When I argue that "nobody wrote a single line about Josephus or Pilate when they were alive (some doubted Pilate existed until the Pilate Stone was found in 1961 & the oldest extant copies of Josephus' works only date to the 10th century while the oldest fragment of John's gospel dates to 125 CE & Paul's Galatians, which is mostly intact, dates to 200CE, yet Acharya S, Humphreys, Zindler ALL argue that Paul never existed!! Paul left SEVEN letters!!!
@AgrippaTheMighty There is a line of facts that exists about almost EVERY one of the Jesus myth fools. None has a PhD IN Christian/NT origins. NONE is qualified to teach the subject at Harvard, Oxford, University of North Carolina etc, None has a PhD in ANY subject, ALL are atheists & ALL HATE Christianity in particular & religion in general. They ALL want to see religion disappear so NO DOUBT they have an agenda & bias as strong as a Billy Graham on the other side. Objective??
One thing is questioning Jesus’ words, and another thing is outright classifying Jesus as a myth, which is a much bolder declaration that’d take real balls of steel to make.
@boblackey1 “The FACTS are the almost EVERY person believed to have existed who lived more than 1,000 years ago has NOTHING written about them during their lifetime.” Please provide evidence of an actual historical messiah & son of god besides Jesus. The claims about Christ are not, by a long shot, the same as the ones for Julius Caesar. You are debating like a true Christian fan that you are. Jesus has the same valid evidence as Hercules.
@AgrippaTheMighty Are you crazy? Middlekk just told me that David Fitzgearld mentions many OTHER Messiah/preachers in this video who existed at the sametime as Jesus yet believes Jesus didn't exist. Guess you didn't watch Fitzgearld's video which, to me, is not original to him at all but probably largely borrowed from Doherty, Zindler & Wells. Also the claims about Jesus being divine & God in the flesh are REJECTED by skeptical scholars. But NOT all his quotes & execution!!
@AgrippaTheMighty It was while reading skeptical scholars that I first noticed that NOWHERE in Paul's genuine letters does he mention the "virgin birth"! Yet in Galatians Paul states he went to Jerusalem & met Jesus' close follower Peter & Jesus' BROTHER James. Did Peter & James fail to tell Paul about such an amazing birth or did Paul not think it that interesting, so fail to pass in on to his readers? OR DID THE VIRGIN BIRTH DOCTRINE NOT EXIST WHEN PAUL MET THOSE MEN? Well?
@boblackey1 “Your numbers are way off. It is more like 50/50.” Those are NOT my numbers. Did you even read the articles that I presented as evidence? I was too generous when I claimed 9 out of 10 since it’s more 99% of scholars are Christians. “I find it odd Ehrman would worry about going too far.” Did you even watch the youtube video that I posted? It is proof of Ehrman’ unwillingness to pass certain limits on religion. It is obvious that you are ignoring major facts.
@AgrippaTheMighty It is obivious YOU are ignoring major facts!! That article is bullshit. I have over two dozen skeptical scholars in my library who peel back the onion of Christianity yet there remains a historical Jesus, his baptism by John the Baptist, a few of his "unsupernatual" sayings such as "the kingdom of God is within you", The Lord's Prayer, the Sermon on the Mount & his execution by Pilate which is also found in secular writings such as Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny etc
@AgrippaTheMighty Also what IS FACT is that everyone of the Jesus myth authors ARE FUCKING AMATEURS except Robert Price, Phd & even Price admits Jesus could have existed & the father of the modern Jesus myth movement G. A. Wells now says there probably is a preacher whom these stories was base behind the spin (which is EXACTLY what Ehrman, Mack, Crosson, Tabor, Miller, Edwards, on & on & on SAY!! I've written Ehrman several time and that aritcle is a LIE!
@boblackey1 “He is on the chopping block of believers world wide. Jesus wasn't virgin born, didn't rise from the dead, most of his quotes are forgeries, several of Paul's letters are forgeries.” So what? Many major Christian religions are already not taking the bible literally, i.e. the Anglicans. Ehrman or others questioning the actual holy writings is nothing new. Look at how diverse Christianity is. What would the big deal be? Now denying Jesus’ existence that takes cojones.
@AgrippaTheMighty Denying Jesus' existence DOESN'T take cojones..it takes stupidity!!! It is a radical theory which is DEAD in academic circles. DEAD!! It is only found today in books by AMATEURS who are radical atheists which an agenda against Christianity. I've studies several of the Jesus myth quacks that the MAIN motivation is to TRASH Christianity BECAUSE THEY DESPISE IT!! They are NOT interested in doing academic work with no bias, only looking at whats likely¬ likely.
@AgrippaTheMighty The information left after stripping away the religious positions of the gospels, Paul, other Christian writings, "Q", Tacitus, Josephus, Piney etc etc is indeed small. But there is enough left to show that Jesus of Nazareth DID exist, lead a small Jewish cult which included Peter & his brother James, he did says a few things that exist in the record, Paul met his followers, Polycarp met a follower, Josephus/Tacitus DID report his death by Pilate. No forgeriy
@AgrippaTheMighty Dr. Burton L. Mack, PhD who is an ATHEIST and NT scholar & expert on reconstructing the lost "Q" document, author of the famous book "Who Wrote the New Testament, The Making of the Christian Myth" told me exactly that. That the evidence that Jesus lived is scanty but there IS enough left to show he did live & we can recover some of this actual sayings & reconstruct much of the original Jesus cult. Why do your IGNORE Mack & go with amateurs with NO PhD? Stupid
@boblackey1 “two dozen skeptical scholars in my library” and this is your evidence against the article that I presented? Furthermore, do any of your Ph’Ds authors present evidence against the fact that Christian fans dominate the field? No, they don’t. So Pleeeeaaaase, shut the freack up until you can actually present evidence that completely debunks what the article is saying. Stupid
@AgrippaTheMighty Fitzgearld lies: "Origen wrote Josephus said nothing about Jesus" Truth: Origen quoted the shorter James brother of Jesus called Christ passage three times & wrote Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ/Messiah NOT JOSEPHUS WROTE NOTHING ABOUT JESUS. Lie number two: Only Christians assume the James passage is about the Jesus of the Bible. Just a quick look at Josephus on Wiki shows almost EVERY Josephus expert holds that!!
@boblackey1 “I am so fucking tired of the Jesus myth crowd being loose w/ facts” Mr. “Upfront with the truth” can you tell the audience what kind of Ph’d does your Dr. Golberg have?
@AgrippaTheMighty Another lie. Eusebius forged the TF in Josephus. There is NOT a shred of evidence to support such a view. And the TOP Josephus experts living today hold the TF was NOT forged but written by Josephus. That a later Christian scribe made a couple of minor changes but NOT to Jesus being executed by Pilate. Feldman is a Jew. Whealey (I spoke with her on the phone) is an agnostic & not religious. Goldberg is not religious & A SCIENTIST!!
@AgrippaTheMighty Eusebius wrote it is okay to lie or bend the truth in support of the faith. That is another Fitzgearld lie also repeated by Jesus myth liars. There is NO Eusebius quote like that but a quote written more than a century AFTER Eusebius lived by another author. Fitzgearld saying stuff wouldn't stand up in court? Well that wouldn't either would it?
@AgrippaTheMighty Fitzgearld: "Early Christian writers loved to quote Josephus but NEVER quote the "TF". That is a lie. Origen quoted the shorter James passage three times & wrote Josephus didn't believe Jesus was Messiah. Probably used the TF for that as most experts hold that the original matched Jerome's copy "he was thought to be the Christ" rather than the gloss "was the Christ" which was a change in the reading added later by a Christian scribe.
@AgrippaTheMighty Also what early Christian apologists beside Origen (when pagan Rome controlled Josephus rather than Christian Rome) quotes Josephus. What evidence is there that even Origen had a complete copy of Josephus or a copy at all but just what some Roman wrote about Josephus. Also in Justin Martyr's genuine letters there is NO mention of Josephus AT ALL! PROOF THAT JUSTIN HAD READ OR EVEN HEARD OF JOSEPHUS!!
@AgrippaTheMighty When one actually takes the time to SPEAK with PhD level experts such as Ehrman, Tabor, Feldman & Whealey ( I spoke to Alice Whealey on the phone at her home in California) you quickly learn, when you ask the right questions concerning the Jesus myth crowd, how they spin & lie about what is known & not known about this subject to make it look as if Jesus never existed, Josephus' TF is a forgery, the gospels contain NO historical information etc etc. What BS!
@boblackey1 This is another article that confirms the fact that Christians completely dominate bible scholarship: wwwDOTbibleinterpDOTcom/opeds/wars357902DOTshtml
Nice paragraphs & also nice dodging of the questions, very Xtian of you. When you’re ready to honestly answer the questions and stop your circular debating & dodging, we’ll continue the conversation. Until then, I’ll let you stay in your fairytale world of “objective” bible scholarship & their Ph’ds Xtian ruled members.
@AgrippaTheMighty Your addy doesn't work! says "Error. URL server not found". I guess it is an article pissed off & claiming that 99% of PhD NT scholars are believing Christians. But I disagree with that. There are dozens & dozens of scholars who are NOT practicing Christians & are agnostic like me. But only one of the dozens & dozens I know about doubts Jesus existed. Robert Price PhD. I KNOW there are PhD's who are believers & defend the NT such as F. F. Bruce. So what??
@AgrippaTheMighty I haven't dodged anything!! You have evidence SUPPORTING Fitzgearld making the same mistake as other Jesus myth supports that Origen wrote Josephus didn't write a thing about Jesus? Or that ONLY Christian apologists support the view that the "TF" isn't a forgery but contains a minor interpolation w/ rest written by Josephus including his execution by Pilate. Or the shorter James passage is only claimed to be from Josephus by Christians? You defend that shit?
@AgrippaTheMighty Or that early Christian apologists LOVED to quote Josephus all the time but never mention the TF because it didn't exist? Where is the support for that lie? Justin Martyr NEVER mentions Josephus AT ALL & a Jesus myth support CAN'T KNOW if Justin Martyr ever heard of Josephus or read ONE LINE from Josephus!! Where is the proof Eusebius ever wrote it is Okay to lie & write falsehoods for the faith when it's from another man over a century later!!
@AgrippaTheMighty Why do Jesus myth supporters ALWAYS FAIL to mention Pines work on the Arab copy & never mention Jerome's copy of Josephus reads "was believed to be the Messiah" rather than "was the Messiah" as do extant copies that exist today that date ONLY to the 10th century? Why do they fail the mention that the best known Josephus scholars including Feldman (a Jew not Christian) & Whealey (an agnostic) hold Josephus DID write the TF & later a scribe made a slight change?
@AgrippaTheMighty AgrippaTheMighty! Are you ready to admit that I am right about that & much more I can bring to the table? I was raised Christian but now am agnostic & don't attend a church. I learned ALL of the from agnostic/atheist scholars & became interested when someone gave me Earl's book "Jesus Puzzle" over 10 years ago. I wondered can this be right? Jesus never even existed. So I made a decision NOT to consult ANY book written by a Christian to see if this is right.
@AgrippaTheMighty All the works I got my hands on (Ehrman, Funk, Tabor, Edwards, Mack, Miller, Crosson, Feldman, Whealey etc etc etc) were written by agnostic or atheist or other religion (Dr. Feldman is a practicing Jew) on NT/Christian origins & Josephus, Tacitus & Pliny. The ONLY support I could find by a PhD working or interested in this field for the Jesus myth was Price & Carrier & BOTH admit that Jesus could have existed but little can be known about him if he did.
@AgrippaTheMighty AgrippaTheMighty. Are YOU ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN Jesus never existed & the entire Jesus story is made up whole cloth? That Jesus was never executed by Pilate? That the two passages in Josephus are COMPLETE forgeries? That Tacitus is a forgery? Do you join with confirmed Jesus mythers Acharya S, Frank Zindler & Ken Humphreys that Paul never existed & all his letters are forgeries? Do you agree with Atwill that Josephus conspired with Rome to fake Christianity?
@boblackey1 “Your addy doesn't work! says "Error. URL server not found” Why is it working in my computer but not in yours? It looks like a cope out. “I haven't dodged anything!!” You answered, “What kind of PhD does Dr. Goldberg” Yes, you are dodging since you have not provided a clear answer to a simple question: Goldberg’s Ph’d. You don’t want us to see your lack of being upfront. And you have not presented any evidence against the previous article, only your disagreement.
@AgrippaTheMighty I JUST tried it two more times & got the same page. "URL for wars357902DOTshtml" is not found. That makes THREE times. Any other suggestions. Maybe the homepage where the article is found? What kind of PhD does David Fitzgearld have? What about Frank Zindler? Or Acharya S? Or Earl Doherty? Or Ken Humphreys? Dr. Goldberg's is in physics but he has studied Josephus for over 25 years. Write at his Email link. Alice Whealey's & Louis Feldman's r n the right field!
@AgrippaTheMighty Are you expecting me to take David Fitzgearld seriously WITHOUT a PhD in this field or ANY FIELD FOR THAT MATTER!! What about Acharya S? Take her seriously with NO PhD in ANY field. Doherty no PhD in ANY field? Zindler no PhD in ANY field. So what is wrong with Dr. Goldberg who also has NO PhD in this field but DOES have one in physics!! And has been a Josephus scholar without a PhD for over 25 years. You think he may be more qualified than Fitzgeard on Joe?
@boblackey1 “Dr. Goldberg who also has NO PhD in this field but DOES have one in physics” I’m qualified to perform an operation on a human being because I have a Ph’D in art history. Can’t you see the major bullshit in this type of thinking? And you accuse us of being loose w/ facts, when I had to ask you 3 times about Golberg’s degree.
Here is the link again: h t t pCOLUMN//wwwDOTbibleinterpDOTcom/opeds/wars357902DOTshtm
@AgrippaTheMighty Well what then is David Fitzgearld qualified to do? What is his PhD in? Art History? Biochemistry? Christian origins? The works of Josephus & Tacitus? Or is it NOT true that Fitzgeard has NO PhD? That is true isn't it? NO PhD? Right? And do you agree Fitzgearld is being VERY LOOSE with the facts don't you? I bet even you were embarrassed when you heard Fitzgearld say Origen wrote "Josephus wrote nothing about Jesus". You know better than that.
@boblackey1 You’re still dodging the original question, and you still have a warped view of what a university degree is. Having a Ph’D does not convert the holder of such deed into the source of all facts and truths.
@AgrippaTheMighty So then all the damn lies (or repeating lies & mistakes other jesus myth crack heads hold) is due to the fact David Fitzgearld has NO PhD. This man isn't qualified to render a professional opinion on this subject anymore than you or me. I listened to this video & the number of falsehoods is striking! If Fitzgearld is going to use other Jesus myth supporters as a source, he better start checking where they got their info so he doesn't look like a f*ing fool.
@boblackey1 “professional opinion on this subject anymore than you or me" or Dr. Golberg, right? Mr. “dogding questions”. We can continue our interesting conversation when you can bring proof to the table that nullifies the evidence that it is a Christian dominated field. I’m tired of seeing your never-ending circular debate, and your continual dodging.
@AgrippaTheMighty I am sorry but my computer will not show that page. I went to the actual website & found it to be a site from a Wesleyan university in Indiana. But was unable to find the article. Of course you provided me this article to show that the majority of PhD level experts in the field of Christian origins & NT scholarship are believers in the Christian faith. I don't know what the percentages are but for over a century conservatives have been trashing the liberals.
@AgrippaTheMighty Modern conservative scholars & believers N. T. Wright & Luke Timothy Johnson are continually bashing liberal/critical scholars for being hyper critical. The Roman Catholic scholars & websites do the same. For example the Catholic Church has a site entirely devoted to defend Paul's authorship of 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus complete with long scholarly defense papers written by well educated Catholic experts. Most critical scholars reject Paul as author.
@AgrippaTheMighty Bart Ehrman's latest book "Forged" (btw Ehrman has an online book out now that supports Jesus existing as a historical person) is being trashed by PhD level conservative scholars worldwide.For example, Ehrman's view that only 7 of Paul's letters are genuine & rest were forged by liars misses important facts. Paul likely dictated several letters to scribes & their style would be incorporated into the text. Perceived change in theology also explained that way.
@AgrippaTheMighty Clearly your implication is this. If the majority of PhD level experts in Christian origins were NOT Christians, then the Jesus myth theory would dominate the field. That is easy to refute. After I was given a copy of Earl Doherty's "Jesus Puzzle" over 10 years ago, I decided to see what critical experts say on the subject. Found just ONE out of 25. Robert Price who doubted Jesus existed. The rest reject his divinity, virgin birth, 85% of his quotes etc.
@AgrippaTheMighty Also answer this! I bet you will not and you will continue to DODGE this question that I've asked before. If Gary Goldberg, PhD (physics) is NOT qualified to render a professional opinion on Josephus (Dr. Goldberg has been an amateur Josephus scholar for over 25 years plus a scientist) then Fitzgearld who has NO PhD in ANYTHING can't render a professional opinion on the historical Jesus! ISN'T THAT RIGHT? Goldberg is worthless & so is Fitzgearld. Right?
@boblackey1 It is a fact that people with Ph’Ds suffer from educational myopia, i.e. they know a lot about a very specific subject but have a lack of broad understanding that undergrad students or Bachelors’ degree holder experience. For example, it is practically never a Ph’D possessor that broadens our view of computer sciences but often a broad thinking undergrad student that creates realities like Microsoft, Google & Facebook. Wake up.
@AgrippaTheMighty It is true that experts do work with ideas their students discuss. I'm reminding of the book "Evolution from Space" by Sir Fred Hoyle and one of his students who was doing his PhD UNDER Hoyle's supervision at Cambridge in England, Chandra Wickramasinghe, PhD. This book was my first experience at thinking life may have come from outerspace. Most experts today continue to reject this view but not as many as in 1981 when Evolution From Space was published.
@AgrippaTheMighty But where is the evidence that any of the Jesus myth supporters are an undergrad student or hold a Bachelors in the field of Christian & New Testament origins. There are two that I like & read who like the Jesus myth theory. Richard Carrier, who recently got his PhD, and Robert Price, PhD. But TAKE NOTE! While they agree that the conclusions of some of the Jesus myth authors are compelling & interesting, these two are NOT dogmatic& say Jesus could have existed
@AgrippaTheMighty And you should like the fact that Richard Carrier has a book coming about Jesus likely being a myth & Carrier is interested in trying to get more of the experts to consider this as a possibility, so when he has the opportunity to speak at gatherings of critical NT scholars, he often will suggest in his talk that it's possible that the religion originated without a historical Jesus. Bart Ehrman & the others right now, just don't buy it.
@AgrippaTheMighty This field isn't like computer science at all. This field is dealing with the past of 2,000 years ago. And until new evidence if found in digs etc, things are not likely to change much. Do you know that a tiny fragment of Mark's gospel is among the material found with the dead sea scrolls? Most experts doubt it is really from Mark. But computer analysis says it is & it's been dated by multiple experts at around 50 CE. The oldest fragment of John is 125CE.
@AgrippaTheMighty But dating these ancient fragments is not exact! So the date 125CE for the fragment of John's gospel includes plus or minus 40 years! If it's PLUS 40 years, then that is good news for the Jesus myth authors who insist ALL the gospels were forged in the second century. If it MINUS 40 years, then the Christian scholars are correct and John is late FIRST century with the other three even older. Most critical scholars date the other 3 first century&john early 2nd.
@boblackey1 I did answer your question and it went right past you. Educational myopia is still very prevalent among scholars with a Ph’D. The reason why it is undergrad students & not computer science Ph’D holders that expand our world of computing, it is because of the broad view of these undergrad individuals. Get it into your head. Also, you continue to dodge the fact that biblical scholarship is still a Christian dominated field.
@AgrippaTheMighty I'm not sure that Christian PhD holders dominate the field of New Testament/Christian origins. Sure all the various denominations have their PhD scholars & apologists to probe & defend the faith. But my library contains books by over 20 scholars who either were NEVER a Christian (i.e. Mack, Maccoby, Miller) or lost the faith (i. e. Crosson, Ehrman). Dominic Crosson WAS a Roman Catholic Priest but went critical & was kicked out.Ehrman's work caused agnosticism.
@AgrippaTheMighty YOU continue to DODGE my question about Dr. Goldberg of wwwDOTjosephusDOTorg fame. If Dr. Goldberg (whom I swapped Email & says he isn't interested in the historical Jesus,only Josephus' work)..If Goldberg isn't qualified to have a professional opinion on Josephus since he is really an amateur as his PhD is in physics, then IS Fitzgearld qualified to have a professional opinion about Jesus? Fitzgearld CLEARLY holds Jesus never existed. NO PhD goes that far.
@AgrippaTheMighty So again!! I want to know IF Gary Goldberg, PhD (physics) is JUST AS QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ABOUT THE WORK OF JOSEPHUS AS FITZPATRICK IS ABOUT JESUS OF NAZARETH???? Also how in the hell could it be that David Fitzpatrick, who's lecture is riddled with mistakes, be SUPERIOR than, say, Bart Ehrman about the question if Jesus even lived as a man? And the last question is: What is YOUR position about Jesus of Nazareth? Myth? Could have lived as man? Did live as a man?
@boblackey1 There is evidence that this is obviously a Christian dominated field, and I think you’re just ignoring the different articles that I’m bringing to your attention. 2 dozen different non-Christians is not evidence of a population at all. “YOU continue to DODGE my question about Dr. Goldberg” I answered it by demonstrating that a Ph’D is irrelevant or even detrimental for a broader view. So Fitzgerald is in as good a position or better as anybody doing the proper research.
@boblackey1 Because of its limiting Christian restrictions, we can’t trust what these scholars (including your JosephusDOTorg) are saying since they’re unwilling to declare Jesus mythical when the available evidence has big red flags that deny him a historical status.
@AgrippaTheMighty There are NO big red flags that deny Jesus historical status!!! NONE!! That is ALL bullshit and spin. It's like those who deny the holocaust happened! So to you ALL of the PhD level NON-Christian scholars such as Erhman, Mack, Edwards, Crosson CAN'T be trusted? Are they idiots & fools who can't do the work properly? Can you provide ANY evidence that Gary Goldberg, PhD IS a Christian? You're just pissed because Goldberg has demonstrated Josephus WROTE the TF!
@AgrippaTheMighty The evidence for a historical Jesus is small. But there IS ENOUGH THERE, WHEN ONE CONNECTS ALL THE DOTS, THERE IS LITTLE DOUBT JESUS EXISTED & WAS EXECUTED BY PILATE ABOUT 29/30 CE. People such as Robert Fitzgearld are guilty of HYPER-skepticism & DISHONEST SPIN!! And Fitzgearld is either lying or isn't even aware of the facts as he is mistaken several times in this lecture. And I mean some BIG mistakes which is why Ehrman laughs at people like that.
@boblackey1 “Are they idiots & fools …?” No they are not idiots or fools, that’s why they stay within the limits that Christianity has imposed upon them. When are you going to get this into your thick head?
First, you say Robert and then David Fitzgerald. Please, get your facts straight.
“Goldberg has demonstrated Josephus WROTE the TF” yeah, I’m very pissed at that “demonstration” especially when NOBODY mentions the TF until Eusebius, another circular debate.
@AgrippaTheMighty "that is why they stay within the limits that Christianity has imposed upon them" BULLSHIT!!! Why then are they being TRASHED by conservative scholars & pastors? Jesus wasn't the son of god. Wasn't divine. Only uttered about 15% of his gospel quotes. The virgin birth is a myth. 2/3 of the stories in the gospels are myth & legend. His small group of original followers & Jesus himself were not expecting Jesus to end up executed.
@AgrippaTheMighty Half of the books in the NT are forgeries. The gospel of John has much interpolation & redaction & re-writes on top of the original work. Paul borrowed much from the mystery religions of his day & his version of Christianity is much different from the original Jesus movement in Jerusalem and on and on. Critical scholars have painted a picture of Christianity that makes it false. It is outrageous to make your claim about critical scholars being limited.
@AgrippaTheMighty Two of the best known Josephus experts in the world today hold that Josephus wrote the "TF" & their books on Josephus are HUGE (an expensive too). Louis Feldman, PhD of New York University is JEWISH & has been translating & researching Josephus for over 50 years. Alice Whealey PhD, author of "Josephus on Jesus from Antiquity to Modern Times" was asked by ME when I called her if she in an active Christian or raised Christian and she said "NO".
@AgrippaTheMighty I then ask Dr. Whealey why she holds that Josephus wrote the TF. She said that is the conclusion all the evidence she examined carefully led to. She said their is little doubt the passage pre-dates Eusebius & his copy read "was believed to be the Messiah" rather than "WAS the Messiah". And there is NO evidence Eusebius forged it. That it's very likely Origen's copy also contained the same wording but Origen ONLY quoted the James brother of Jesus passage..
@AgrippaTheMighty But she said Origen also wrote that "Josephus didn't not believe in Jesus as the Messiah". Also when Origen wrote, Josephus' works were kept by PAGAN Rome not Christian Rome & one can't even be certain Origen had a copy but could have been quoting another person's quotes or Origen may not have had a complete copy. There is NO evidence that Justin Martyr ever read or even heard of Josephus so claiming he avoided Josephus because nothing was there is bullshit.
@AgrippaTheMighty Dr. Pines demonstrated (and Feldman & Whealey agrees) that an Arab version is close to the original & at the crucial point it also read "was thought to be the Christ" by his followers which agrees with Jerome's copy. Goldberg has shown scientifically that Josephus used the same source about Jesus that the author of Luke used in a portion of his gospel. Josephus USED source material about Jesus & apparently never interviewed a person he knew Jesus says Goldber
@AgrippaTheMighty Sorry about the mistake. I must have been thinking of Robert Price when I typed Robert Fitzpatrick! But why should that bother you? Fitzgearld makes many mistakes in his lecture! Do you know what they are?
@boblackey1 “Why then are they being TRASHED by conservative scholars & pastors?” The same way that these conservative scholars & pastors trash very liberal Christian religions like the Anglicans who don’t take the bible literally either. It isn’t bullshit. Yes, these liberal scholars heavily promote a non-literal interpretation of the Bible, but they will only go so far. None of the pre-Eusebius fathers mention the TF. But the TF is not a contemporary eyewitness account anyhow.
@AgrippaTheMighty That is a constant mistake made by most Jesus myth people about pre-Eusebius fathers. They give the impression that ALL of them quote Josephus & quote him often when the opposite is true. It's rare for a early church father to quote Josephus. I REPEAT!!! There is NOT ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT JUSTIN MARTYR, FOR EXAMPLE, EVER HEARD OF JOSEPHUS OR READ HIM. NONE!! It is not certain Origen had a copy. Dr. Whealey thinks Origen was using another person's work...
@AgrippaTheMighty another person's work who did the quoting from Josephus. Sure Origen quoted the shorter "James brother of Jesus called Christ" passage three times & he wrote Josephus DID NOT BELIEVE JESUS WAS THE CHRIST (never did he say Josephus never mentioned Jesus, Fitzgearld is lying or misinformed about that) BUT Origen also quotes Josephus when the actual quote is NOT from Josephus but another ancient author!! Whealey gave me the name of the other author if you want it
@boblackey1 Again, I have presented evidence with a least 3 articles of a heavily Christian dominated Bible scholarship, but so far your response has been “my computer can’t show that article.” What about the other 2? The Xtian world has a monopoly on it, heavily discriminating against the non-believing scholars. This tiny minority will not dare cross some well-demarked lines such as declaring Jesus a fable. Why is Jesus not a myth while other gods are? Answer: Xtian censorship.
@AgrippaTheMighty That IS correct. I can NOT get that article to come up. I can get the home page to come up & that is when I discovered the website is a Christian site for a Wesleyan University. I never noticed the other two. Give them to me again. All I know is there are dozens & dozens of critical scholars who's work destroys Christianity as a true religion. But you say they are unwilling to cross certain lines. That is BULLSHIT. Bart Ehrman told me he isn't censored at all!
@AgrippaTheMighty Dr. Ehrman told me via Email that he is not a Christian, does not attend a church & would not any church or group of conservative scholars control his work and conclusions. That he holds the Jesus DID exist as a man ONLY because he see all the available evidence pointing to that. And I agree. It is the ONLY conclusion one came hold unless one wants to be HYPER & claim all these people are lying or their work has been invaded by lying Christians.
@AgrippaTheMighty And in closing, the critical/liberal scholars DO hold that Jesus Christ is a myth!!! But that the Jesus who had an early first century cult & did say a few words that made it into the gospels, was noticed by Josephus & Tacitus etc & executed by Pilate under the reign of Tiberius, knew John the Baptist, had 3 followers named Peter & John & his brother James, who originally thought Jesus was out of his mind (that is even in the gospels) actually lived. He did!
I love how people will debate the source of the texts but forget the obvious problems. Not one historian, or person who could write saw all these dead saints raise from the dead and thought, hmmmm, maybe I should jot this down, people might want to know about this some day. The only reference to that EVER is in the bible? Really. That doesn't make any sense at all. You can find records of how much oil was in town, but not something substantially bigger in importance?
djsvain 1 week ago
@djsvain Or the fact that other Gospel writers didn't think it was relevant.
DarkEmergence 1 week ago
@djsvain How much oil was in what town & when? You don't know do you! ha ha. Are YOU NOT AWARE of the dozens of MISTAKES Daivd Fitzgeard makes in this video? Either he is a f*ing liar or more likely, he is just quoting Jesus myth crack heads who wrote before him & that is why he makes the same mistakes. And I have NO degree at all & with just a computer & about 20 books by PhD level experts in this field, I can refute Fitzgearld WITH THE FACTS!! all damn day.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 Even if everything else he said is a lie, that bit is fact. Look at the improbability of such fantastic and amazing things happening and they are only ever recorded in one place. The bible. Zombie saints, angels descending from the heavens, the voice of God booming down to tell people he is proud of his son, who is him. That last part in itself is pretty vein isn't it. You are right, I don't know how much oil was in town on that day. I am not a historian.
djsvain 1 week ago
@djsvain The conservative scholars (who also are believers in Christianity) have ways to explain why only a select few at Jesus' baptism by John the Baptist heard God's voice. And don't forget, Jesus is also God, not created but from everlasting to everlasting, one substance with his father. So it IS very complicated & theologians have written volumes over the centuries to explain the Trinity, virgin birth, salvation by Jesus' death on the cross etc.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 Yeah, I find that it is complicated to be a joke in itself. God created flawed beings with limited understanding, yet gives us teachings that must be explained rather than simply read. Of course all the people who try to explain it never agree entirely on the subject hence the reason for multiple different forms of Christianity. Of course you overlook these obvious problems and continue your faith in something so uncertain or provable.
djsvain 1 week ago
@djsvain Are you addressing me? I thought I said before that I was raised in a family they went to a protestant church but that early on, I became an agnostic about my faith but I'm 50/50 as to God existing. I think there is a decent shot that some high intelligence outside space & time caused the big bang & worked out the laws of nature & physics. There are MANY scientists who figure that kind of God or creative force exists. Nobody knows how life or the universe got here. NOBODY!!
boblackey1 6 days ago
@djsvain Christians say htose fantastic & amazing things are recorded my multiple eyewitnesses. The four gospel writers, the author of Hebrews, the epistles of Paul, Peter, John, Jude & Christian writings that didn't make the cut when the canon of Scripture was closed. The reason conservative experts & believers in general TRASH critical/liberal scholars is because they REJECT 85% of the gospel story as myth & legend. Tall tales spun about Jesus of Nazareth who headed a Jewish cult
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 of course again God would choose to leave people out in the cold about his existence instead of just letting everybody know and ending the debate once and for all. All powerful being demanding love and loyalty without giving anybody a real reason to give it.
djsvain 1 week ago
@djsvain The God that exists that caused the big bang (as you know, time, energy, matter AND EVEN A PLACE TO BE LOCATED..SPACE, all began just 13.5 billion years ago), the God the created the universe & probably life too may not even know we are on the earth! Or if he knows, he may not care what we do. Einstein, Hoyle, Burbidge, Kaku, Davies, Wichramasinghe & several other noted scientists hold that view.
boblackey1 6 days ago
@djsvain Also it is surprising to me "how much of David Fitzgearld's presentation is wrong & contrary to THE facts & how much wrong information (mistakes) he passes on from others who wrote before him who support the Jesus myth position". Fitzpatrick is NOT a good historian. I suggest he didn't do ANY research on his own but just borrowed from other Jesus myth authors including their mistakes!
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 Do you say this because you are some sort of biblical historian? Or are you saying it because you believe what other Christian biblical historians say(borrowing their research with all it's flaws). There are thousands of flaws in the bible that you and other Christians willingly overlook because to face reality is too damn scary for them. What you fail to realize is that reality is a freeing thing. Finally knowing that the world is what you make of it good or bad, your choice.
djsvain 1 week ago
@djsvain NO! I was raised in a Christian family & in a protestant church but early, as a teen, became an agnostic. I'm in my 60's now. About 10/12 years ago, a friend gave me a book claiming Jesus never lived. The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty. But I noticed Earl was NOT a scholar/expert in the field & had NO PhD or any degree that I could find. Just the head of the Canadian Humanists Society. I had never head of such a thing. So I collected books by over a dozen experts on...
boblackey1 6 days ago
@djsvain experts on Christian/New Testament origins by critical/liberal PhD level authors. Also Doherty claimed both of the passages in Josephus that mentioned Jesus were forged by a lying Christian. So I also consulted the most noted Josephus scholar in the world, Louis Feldman, Phd at New York University who is a Jew & swapped some Email with him & Dr. Feldman also suggested I get a book by a lady I'd never heard of called "Josephus on Jesus" by Alice Whealey, PhD.
boblackey1 6 days ago
@djsvain Both Feldman & Whealey hold that Josephus wrote two passages about Jesus but the longer one, the TF, contains some minor tampering. And only ONE PhD level critical scholar who DOUBTS NOT REJECTS a historical Jesus out of well over 16 scholars who are NOT Christian. The I consulted the scholars at the liberal Jesus Seminar, the one's still living, and found the same thing. Jesus Christ is a myth but Jesus of Nazareth DID live & was indeed executed by Pilate as the gospels say!
boblackey1 6 days ago
David Fitzgeard is a FUCKING LIAR and is spreading so much false information in the lecture he should have is fucking face slapped!!! I am so fucking tired of the Jesus myth crowd being loose w/ facts
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
Dude. Keep the camera on the PowerPoint in the future, please.
Nobody wants to see the guy. We want to see his slides.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
Great video thanks. Yeah, anyone who doesn't see any problems in/with the bible and who's actually read it, ALSO has serious problems.
gr8vibes2 3 weeks ago
@gr8vibes2 Dr. James M. McGarth, who is a New Testament expert, has refuted David and the Jesus myth position as being untenable as well as Erhman, Crosson, Mack, Edwards, Miller and many others. The historical evidence for a historical Jesus is scanty but there is enough to show that the gospels based the myths & legends that developed about Jesus on a historical figure. About 13 % of Jesus quotes are likely from him and his execution by Pilate is held by experts to be a FACT!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
13% of his quotes? From the inerrant word of god? You realize you just told us that at minimum 87% of the freaking BIBLE can reasonably be regarded as bullshit. If they can't get 87% of the saying of Jesus right, how in the world can they be regarded as accurate with regard to everything else?
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Your problem is NOT with me but with the EXPERTS in Christian origins & New Testament origins who are agnostic, atheist or Jewish. I can give you a list of well over 300 names of PhD skeptical experts who make it clear that Fitzgearld and Jesus myth supporters are WRONG. It's impossible for that to be correct. Even the scholars David quotes for support hold that Jesus existed but David failed to mention that so fuck him! He is not honest but like a conspiracy nut! Its BS.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@middlekk If you would read, for example, Burton L. Mack's (Dr. Mack is an atheist) "Who Wrote the New Testament, the Making of the Christian Myth" or Dr. Losey's critique of how John's gospel came to read as it does today or Jewish expert Hyram Maccoby, PhD works on Paul? More on Paul.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Paul wrote Galatians most experts say about 50 or 60 CE. In it he claims he went to Jerusalem and finally met two of the leaders of the Jerusalem church. Peter and Jesus brother James. But Paul NEVER wrote one word about the virgin birth in ANY of his letters. Did Peter & James not tell Paul about such an unusual event? Or did Paul not think it worth mentioning? Or did the doctrine NOT exist then? See how they squeeze out what is historical, what is myth or likely legend.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
It's quite likely that Paul never believed in the existence of corporeal Jesus at all.
No kidding, you're digging deeper holes. You just declared that Luke -- the "greatest historian of all time" -- begins his hagiography with a clear myth. How does that make anything he says that follows more credible? Doesn't.
A scant few years ago, no one believed in the tectonic plate theory, either. Now, it's established fact.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk "It's quite likely that Paul never believed in the existence of corporeal Jesus at all". That is one of the most stupid statements the Jesus myth crowd makes. It is just laughable to the experts who work in the field of Christian & NT origins. It shows just how radical & ignorant of the facts & work of those in the field who HAVE THE CREDENTIALS TO SPEAK WITH INTELLIGENCE ON THIS SUBJECT. There is so much evidence in Paul's letters that Jesus lived on earth it's absurd!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Tectonic plate theory is vastly different from holding a position that the scholarly world, the PhD level historians & scholars working on Christian origins & New Testament origins will, someday, switch to the position that today is only held by a minority of atheist amateurs with NO degree & unqualified to teach Christian origins at any university, that Jesus never existed. That will never happened because ALL the facts available to scholars today shows that he DID exist!!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
What facts? There are none. None of the so-called gospels were written by eyewitnesses. Luke himself says he wasn't an eyewitness, only an historian. No present-at-the-time eyewitness claims to have seen him.
I think it's likely the Jesus character is a concatenation of many Messianic preachers of the day -- including John the Baptist, who we can place at that time. But a "real" Jesus? Nope. Not one shred of credible evidence to support that contention.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Atheist Frank Zindler claims John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth AND Paul never existed. You know what. I just checked and Frank Zindler doesn't exist either. Isn't that odd. John the Baptist didn't exist & Jesus & Josephus wrote about both men. Maybe Josephus didn't exist! There are NO eyewitnesses or any "present-at-the-time writers" who report ONE WORD about Josephus. Every written page about Josephus come AFTER he wrote his work. We don't know when he died or was buried.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Heh. Lame, dude. You still haven't brought a shred of credible evidence that this Jesus fellow actually existed.
Josephus was mentioned many times in the historical records, and we have ... wait ... surviving documents written by him!
What did Jesus write? Anything? The living god - didn't write one word on his own behalf? How lame is that? Was your Jesus illiterate? An omniscient, omnipotent being? Who couldn't write?
Totally lame.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Anything on Josephus written DURING his supposed lifetime? Anything on Pilate written DURING his supposed lifetime? Oh and WAIT we have surviving documents written by Paul & two brothers of Jesus; James & Jude. Oh that is right. Frank Zindler, Acharya S & Ken Humphreys (all without a degree) have decided that Paul really didn't write anything & never existed. Well I've decided that Josephus didn't write anything & never existed.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@middlekk You are clearly IGNORANT!! Ignorant of the facts that have been formulated by skeptical scholars & historians WITH a PhD that shows that Jesus DID exist. I strongly suggest you read Tabor, Ehrman, Crosson, Borg, Miller, Edwards, Mack & other skeptical experts & let go of this Fitzgearld guy who hasn't a good argument about any of the conclusions of the REAL experts. Why is it that supposed intelligent human beings are suckered by QUACK like Fitzgearld?
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@middlekk There is LESS information about John the Baptist than Jesus. So how is it you contend John the Baptist existed? Who ARE the Messianic preachers that we CAN place in the early first century in that part of the world? Well the one with that enjoys the most notice is Jesus of Nazareth. You know the some of the Jesus myth nuts also claim Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus' "supposed" life time. They always say "supposed" life time or "supposed" death. What idiots!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Well, you can actually look at the video to see which Messianic preachers actually were noticed at the time...but you've not even bothered to do that.
You're really digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself.
Why would an all-powerful deity leave less historical evidence for his existence that JtB?
Really, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Oh so the video takes note of the Messianic preachers that were actually noticed at the time yet MAKES THE CRAZY CLAIM THAT JESUS NEVER EXISTED!!! There is far more written evidence for Jesus than ANY of the other Messianic preachers. And it is a fucking LIE that there is MORE evidence for JtB than Jesus. That is the kind of mistakes one makes when listening to quacks like Fitzgearld rather than reading the experts with a PhD in the field of Christian & NT origin.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Yes, there were many Messianic preachers in Palestine at the time mentioned...your "Jesus" fellow wasn't one of them.
Fascinating.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Yes he was one of them. Josephus mentions him twice & Tacitus once as does Pliny & the amount of Christian writings that are outside the New Testament which date to the time is staggering. It is "hyper-skepticism" which is silly, akin to rejecting man walked on the moon or 9/11 was an inside job, to hold Jesus was invented whole-cloth. There is no reason & not enough time for that to happen. There is NO question people who reject a historical Jesus are NUTS & being silly.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Jesus was invented as a heavenly intercessor by a Jewish sect that did not feel they were worthy to pray to Yahweh himself. The Hellenists grew him into a "real boy", just like Pinocchio.
Seriously, you haven't yet offered one shred of evidence that wasn't directly refuted by this video -- and many, many other credible sources. I know you have a hard-on against this guy -- but he's hardly alone in questioning the historicity of Jesus.
middlekk 1 week ago
@middlekk Are you living on fucking Pluto? There is NOTHING in this video that has refuted a damn thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOTHING!!! This poor video is so full of lies & mistakes that if it were not so pitiful it would be on the comedy channel for all who have studied this subject to laugh at until their sides popped open. There are NO experts with credentials in this field who question the historicity of Jesus except two out of well over 1,000 working today & thousands in the past.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@middlekk I suggest YOU are ignorant of the FACTS in this fuss as you seem to be unaware of the many mistakes in this video. I'll give you just one of over a dozen examples. Ftizgearld says early Christian apologist Origen reported Josephus didn't mention Jesus in his writings. The truth is Origen quoted the shorter James passage three times & actually wrote Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah! That is such a crucial mistake, how can you trust anything this bozo says???
boblackey1 1 week ago
@middlekk This video hasn't refuted ANYTHING!! Not even close! And looks so feeble & pitiful when put next to the works of Bart Ehrman, PhD, Burton L. Mack, PhD, John Dominic Crosson, PhD, Robert Miller, PhD, James Tabor, PhD, Louis Feldman, PhD, Alice Whealey, PhD, Hyram Maccoby, PhD, Johnathan Z. Smith, PhD etc. And excuse me, which university does Fitzgearld teach Christian origins? Is it Harvard? Virginia Tech? New York University? Where is he a professor?
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 Argument from authority is a logical fallacy.
I only respond to the evidence. Of which you have none.
Thanks for playing.
middlekk 1 week ago
@middlekk It's not a logical fallacy at all. When one takes what evidence exists about Jesus of Nazareth which an atheist/agnostic or believer in another faith CAN accept & string all the dots together, then Jesus very likely existed. When skeptics strip away what is held as incredible & myth from the gospels, a layer of original Jesus tradition is exposed which shows only a man. As the gospels evolved, if they had removed all the embarrassing material, critical scholars would be dead.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@middlekk The Jesus myth theory is DEAD. It just doesn't fit the facts. When one takes ALL the available facts together, there is little doubt that Jesus existed, actually spoke words that are recorded in books (The liberal Jesus Seminar says about 13% of his gospel quotes were actually said by Jesus) & was executed by Pilate about 29 CE. And this idea that the TF in Josephus' work is a forgery collapses when carefully examined. See wwwDOTjosephusDOTorg for absolute proof!
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1
...and yet, you still haven't met my target. An actual eyewitness corroboration that this "Jesus" fellow actually existed.
Until you can supply me with credible evidence, I'm afraid you're still a loser.
middlekk 1 week ago
@middlekk No I'm NOT a loser. I'm in agreement with every critical/liberal experts out there except one or two (Robert Price, PhD & Richard Carrier, PhD) that a historical Jesus existed. There is just too much data/evidence, that when taken together, makes it very likely that such a character existed, had a ministry & a small following, taught the Lord's prayer, the sermon on the mount, the kingdom of God is with in you & was executed by Pilate under the reign of Tiberius abut 29CE.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@middlekk Also historians don't need eyewitness corroboration to understand certain facts about a historical person. Indeed almost ALL persons believed to have existed in the early first century have NO such luxury either. Who wrote about Josephus or Pilate or Paul or Tacitus or almost everyone who lived then while they were alive? But I hold that we come very close to that standard with Jesus of Nazareth. Paul met James (Jesus' brother) & Peter. Also Polycarp met John who knew Jesus.
boblackey1 1 week ago
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@middlekk Also historians don't need eyewitness corroboration to understand certain facts about a historical person. Indeed almost ALL persons believed to have existed in the early first century have NO such luxury either. Who wrote about Josephus or Pilate or Paul or Tacitus or almost everyone who lived then while they were alive? But I hold that we come very close to that standard with Jesus of Nazareth. Paul met James (Jesus' brother) & Peter. Also Polycarp met John who knew Jesus.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@middlekk They can't. That is the point.
djsvain 1 week ago
@gr8vibes2 All four gospels, the non canonical gospel of Thomas, the early church fathers, Josephus, Tacitus, Paul etc etc all agree that Pilate executed Jesus and experts find the date to be around 29/30 CE. In short, the view that Jesus never existed is rejected by well over 1,000 skeptical experts in the world working today and is very likely bull shit.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Did you not watch the video? He addressed your points. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" doesn't help your cause.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk David Fitzgearld is ignorant of the reasons that his theory can't be correct. He stands almost alone. NO experts agree with him. One has to turn to amateurs such as Acharya S or Earl Doherty or Frank Zindler (all radical atheists) and NONE have a PhD in Christian origins or New Testament origins just like Fitzgearld. Jesus execution by Pilate for example is held by 99.9 % of experts as a historical FACT. All 4 gospels, non canonical gospels,Josephus, Tacitus etc etc etc.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 "NONE have a PhD in Christian origins"
What does that mean when all you have is words. You have to prove the originators weren't propagandists. Today's Jesus PhD Christians could be propagandists too. Who knows, you could be one yourself. My stance is that much of the bible alone doesn't make any sense, you don't need to look elsewhere. The bible is its worse enemy.
gr8vibes2 2 weeks ago
@gr8vibes2 Devout Christians, Catholic, protestant & orthodox, all claim the Bible makes perfect sense. Maybe you don't understand the Bible. What is it that doesn't make sense? Also I'm not quoting or talking about CHRISTIAN PhD experts but skeptical/agnostic/atheist New Testament & Christian experts. The skeptic experts & Christian experts disagree on about 80 % of their positions. Most skeptics only hold that Jesus was executed by Pilate about 30CE & only said 14% of his quotes.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Except the Catholics and Protestants have vastly different bibles. Which bible are you talking about?
Myths. Fairy stories. Revisionist (largely false) Jewish history. Dietary guidelines for people with no ice. Some smutty poetry. That's about it.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Catholics & Protestants do NOT have vastly different bibles! Who in the hell told you that? The gospels & the rest of the New Testament is exactly the same. The New Testament contains lots of information which is historical. For example Pilate executed Jesus. Find a historian with a PhD who rejects that? Your theory is as bad as the lawyers for O. J. Simpson claiming 100 LA polices officers worked together to frame O. J. You are fooling with a radical FOOL with Fitzgearld.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
There's no historical evidence that Pilate executed Jesus. None whatsoever. Find me the execution orders. Find me a contemporaneous eyewitness account. Not Josephus, who was born AFTER the events in question. Or any of the others.
You can't, because the evidence doesn't exist.
Might as well be talking about Hercules holding the Earth on his shoulders.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Your view that there is NO historical evidence that Pilate executed Jesus is absurd. There isn't a PhD historian in the WORLD who holds such a view. If one exists, I have never heard of him/her. The "myth" wack-o's use to claim Pilate himself probably never existed too. Nobody ALIVE when he lived or ruled wrote ONE LINE about him. Nobody knows when he died or is buried. But when they found a stone in Israel dedicated to Pilate, the hyper skeptics decided he probably did exist
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@middlekk All of the gospels report Jesus was executed by PILATE. Several gospels & epistles which were rejected for the canon of the NT report Jesus was executed by Pilate. Josephus says that & so does Tacitus who reports that Chrestus (sic), the origin of the name Christian which was an evil cult & superstition suffered the extreme penalty by Pilate, that the superstition was checked for awhile but broke out again & spread to Rome. Most historians hold Tacitus was a careful writer.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Careful writer or not, Tacitus WAS NOT THERE.
Sorry. Goalpost not met.
Try again. Someone who was there. Eyewitness. None of the Gospel "writers" count -- they weren't there. Nor was Josephus. Nor was Tacitus. Nor was Origen. Nor was Polycarp.
Someone who was there.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Who says NONE of the gospel writers count? Fitzgearld? You think I'm going to place my bets on something that amateur QUACK, who dosen't even have a PhD in this or any field (I can find NO evidence he has a PhD as a historian.) Many scholars hold that the epistle of James was actually written by Jesus' BROTHER & pre-dates Paul's letter. True some hold that James wrote the original document & it was later polished by another writer but SO WHAT?
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Nope. None of the people who compiled the gospel accounts were there. History shows that they were written down perhaps a hundred years after the events in question. It's akin to my claiming the Wright Brothers weren't the first to fly an airplane because I eyewitnessed someone flying a unicorn in 1910.
And you can't use a book of myths to validate a book of myths.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk That is a lie! Dr. Losey's critical examination of John's Gospel is sure it contains a core/foundational "historcial" bottom. That what we read today is DIFFERENT from the original John. What we read today has redactions, re-writes & interpolations on top of it. The oldest John fragment dates to 125 CE +/- 30 years. It could be 155 OR it could be 95! Maybe just one copy from the ORIGINAL!!!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Many skeptical experts hold that the gospels, including the gospel of John, contain a core historical foundation AND SOME OF THE ACTUAL WORDS OF JESUS!! The skeptical Jesus Seminar collectively voted that about 14% of Jesus quotes in the gospels were ACTUALLY uttered by Jesus. If the band of atheist/agnostic scholars didn't believe Jesus existed, they would have voted ZERO with their colored marbles.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@middlekk The FACTS are the almost EVERY person believed to have existed who lived more than 1,000 years ago has NOTHING written about them during their lifetime. Indeed most first appear in the written record FAR longer than Jesus. Some well over a century or several centuries. Yet historians have NO problem holding that the person existed. Polycarp met John who met Jesus. Who are you calling a LIAR? Polycarp, John or both? The Jesus myth theory is a radical failure which is silly!!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
So, you admit that Polycarp was not an eyewitness.
See how easy that was?
Now, find me an eyewitness, and we can start talking.
I know you can't, because if there were, you would have trotted him out by now.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk My grandfather met Josephs Boxall who was an officer on The Titanic. Boxall wasn't Captain Smith but he met, knew & saw Captain Smith & my grandfather wasn't on the Titanic & never met Captain Smith. But Officer Boxall certainly could pass on information about what Smith said. "what have we struck", according to Boxall, were the first words out of his mouth when he walked on the bridge. Polycarp met John who was a follower of Jesus. That is an important source yet BS to you.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Yes, that's correct. It's bullshit. Heresay evidence. Not admissable in court. Not admissable as historical evidence. Because it's not backed up by any credible contemporaneous eyewitness.
Smith could have said, "HOLY SHIT, WHAT WAS THAT" for all we know.
Original sources of eyewitnesses, please. Otherwise, it's just bullshit heresay.
middlekk 1 week ago
@middlekk Well there isn't a fucking thing in David Fitzgeard's video, his lecture, that would stand up in court. He is NOT qualified to render a PROFESSIONAL opinion so the other attorney would jump all over that. Plus his so call evidence is riddled with mistakes, falsehoods & lies. The man didn't even take the time to check out his sources. I hope he didn't get paid for this. Somebody was had.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@middlekk And YOU find me an eyewitness to anything Josephus did or Paul did or Pilate did or John the Baptist did and on and on and on and on. Find me an eyewitness to anything Tacitus did. Find me an eyewitness to MOST persons believed to have lived 2000 years ago. We have James, John for Jesus & Paul & Polycarp for people who MET people who met Jesus. That is one reason skeptical/agnostic scholars all agree Jesus did exist as a man.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@middlekk Both Tacitus & Josephus were NOT Christians. Indeed Tacitus called Christianity "an evil superstition checked for awhile (after Jesus was executed by Pilate) but broke out again & spread to Rome". And he says Chrestus ( I'm told that Chrestus rather than Christ was common with Romans) was the origin of the name Christian and suffered the extreme penalty by Pilate LESS that 100 years AFTER Jesus' execution. It is being silly to challenge that. Hyper skepticism is usually wrong
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
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AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
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AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 All non-biblical historians do is to parrot what these NT historians say, and almost all NT scholars (9 out of 10) are Christians. Ostracism from Peers & believers keep the few non-Christians NT professors operating within limits, i.e, Bart Ehrman expresses his concern with going too far in certain matters of religion: /watch?v=59txpioPYJI
The method of voting or rule by majority does not determine the validity of a person in history. Only compelling evidence does it.
AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Your numbers are way off. It is more like 50/50. My library is full of works by historians/NT scholars who are NOT Christian. Burton L. Mack is an atheist. Ehrman is agnostic as is Tabor. Miller & Edwards are not believers. I find it odd Ehrman would worry about going too far. He is on the chopping block of believers world wide. Jesus wasn't virgin born, didn't rise from the dead, most of his quotes are forgeries, several of Paul's letters are forgeries.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
Bob says: "Jesus wasn't virgin born, didn't rise from the dead, most of his quotes are forgeries, several of Paul's letters are forgeries."
I say: At least you're setting some things right. One small step to the honest truth -- there's no compelling evidence of a "real" Jesus at all. He's likely a fiction made of whole cloth, embellished by tales of real Messianic preachers of the day.
One small step and you're there.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty The evidence IS compelling. That fact that Josephus mentioned Jesus twice (the TF in NOT a forgery), Tacitus once, Paul in 50 CE meets Peter and Jesus' own brother who knew Jesus, Polycarp met John & wrote John met & heard Jesus, items in the gospels deemed embarrassing by skeptical scholars which wouldn't make since if Jesus was COMPLETELY MADE UP. Pliny complaining the Christians sing hymns to Christ as if he is a God early on Sunday morning etc etc.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1
They don't call it "forgery". They use the kinder word "interpolation". Which means "later insertion of text." Careful scholars agree that the TF is a forgery, and the second mention isn't your Yeshua (Joshua). It was a common name -- as common as Mohammed is today.
At least we know Mohammed was a real war lord.
Your Jesus? Nope.
middlekk 2 weeks ago
@middlekk THAT IS A FUCKING LIE!!! AND DAVID FITZGEARLD IS A FUCKING LIAR WHO IS SO FULL OF SHIT THAT I WILL TELL HIM NOSE TO NOSE AND FACE TO FACE WHEN I GET A CHANCE TO SEE HIM IN PERSON. THERE ARE DOZENS OF EXAMPLES OF OUT RIGHT LIES IN HIS LECTURE!!! It's also a fucking lie that "careful scholars" all agree the TF is a forgery. The BEST Josephus scholars IN THE WORLD reject the forgery theory!! Feldman, Whealey, Goldberg etc 5 to 1 REJECT THE FORGERY THEORY & Fitzgearld is a LIAR
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty To COMPLETELY DISMISS Jesus as a historical person by the Jesus myth crowd is HYPER SKEPTICISM and it silly as it goes beyond reason. For example, every arrogant nut who wants to argue Jesus & Paul never existed insists that they need to have someone outside Christianity mention then in writing WHILE THEY ARE ALIVE. 20 years later, 60 years later is rejected yet that is the case with ALMOST EVERYONE who lived over 1,000 years ago.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty When I argue that "nobody wrote a single line about Josephus or Pilate when they were alive (some doubted Pilate existed until the Pilate Stone was found in 1961 & the oldest extant copies of Josephus' works only date to the 10th century while the oldest fragment of John's gospel dates to 125 CE & Paul's Galatians, which is mostly intact, dates to 200CE, yet Acharya S, Humphreys, Zindler ALL argue that Paul never existed!! Paul left SEVEN letters!!!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty There is a line of facts that exists about almost EVERY one of the Jesus myth fools. None has a PhD IN Christian/NT origins. NONE is qualified to teach the subject at Harvard, Oxford, University of North Carolina etc, None has a PhD in ANY subject, ALL are atheists & ALL HATE Christianity in particular & religion in general. They ALL want to see religion disappear so NO DOUBT they have an agenda & bias as strong as a Billy Graham on the other side. Objective??
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
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@boblackey1 Most NT professors are Christians, links below:
wwwDOTtheaunicornistDOTcom/2011/12/shocking-news-biblical-scholars-areDOThtml
chronicleDOTcom/blogs/brainstorm/a-brief-thought-on-atheists-in-biblical-scholarship-stimulated-by-professor-bauerleins-haidt-speech-post/32462
One thing is questioning Jesus’ words, and another thing is outright classifying Jesus as a myth, which is a much bolder declaration that’d take real balls of steel to make.
AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 “The FACTS are the almost EVERY person believed to have existed who lived more than 1,000 years ago has NOTHING written about them during their lifetime.” Please provide evidence of an actual historical messiah & son of god besides Jesus. The claims about Christ are not, by a long shot, the same as the ones for Julius Caesar. You are debating like a true Christian fan that you are. Jesus has the same valid evidence as Hercules.
AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Are you crazy? Middlekk just told me that David Fitzgearld mentions many OTHER Messiah/preachers in this video who existed at the sametime as Jesus yet believes Jesus didn't exist. Guess you didn't watch Fitzgearld's video which, to me, is not original to him at all but probably largely borrowed from Doherty, Zindler & Wells. Also the claims about Jesus being divine & God in the flesh are REJECTED by skeptical scholars. But NOT all his quotes & execution!!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty It was while reading skeptical scholars that I first noticed that NOWHERE in Paul's genuine letters does he mention the "virgin birth"! Yet in Galatians Paul states he went to Jerusalem & met Jesus' close follower Peter & Jesus' BROTHER James. Did Peter & James fail to tell Paul about such an amazing birth or did Paul not think it that interesting, so fail to pass in on to his readers? OR DID THE VIRGIN BIRTH DOCTRINE NOT EXIST WHEN PAUL MET THOSE MEN? Well?
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 “Your numbers are way off. It is more like 50/50.” Those are NOT my numbers. Did you even read the articles that I presented as evidence? I was too generous when I claimed 9 out of 10 since it’s more 99% of scholars are Christians. “I find it odd Ehrman would worry about going too far.” Did you even watch the youtube video that I posted? It is proof of Ehrman’ unwillingness to pass certain limits on religion. It is obvious that you are ignoring major facts.
AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty It is obivious YOU are ignoring major facts!! That article is bullshit. I have over two dozen skeptical scholars in my library who peel back the onion of Christianity yet there remains a historical Jesus, his baptism by John the Baptist, a few of his "unsupernatual" sayings such as "the kingdom of God is within you", The Lord's Prayer, the Sermon on the Mount & his execution by Pilate which is also found in secular writings such as Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny etc
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Also what IS FACT is that everyone of the Jesus myth authors ARE FUCKING AMATEURS except Robert Price, Phd & even Price admits Jesus could have existed & the father of the modern Jesus myth movement G. A. Wells now says there probably is a preacher whom these stories was base behind the spin (which is EXACTLY what Ehrman, Mack, Crosson, Tabor, Miller, Edwards, on & on & on SAY!! I've written Ehrman several time and that aritcle is a LIE!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 “He is on the chopping block of believers world wide. Jesus wasn't virgin born, didn't rise from the dead, most of his quotes are forgeries, several of Paul's letters are forgeries.” So what? Many major Christian religions are already not taking the bible literally, i.e. the Anglicans. Ehrman or others questioning the actual holy writings is nothing new. Look at how diverse Christianity is. What would the big deal be? Now denying Jesus’ existence that takes cojones.
AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Denying Jesus' existence DOESN'T take cojones..it takes stupidity!!! It is a radical theory which is DEAD in academic circles. DEAD!! It is only found today in books by AMATEURS who are radical atheists which an agenda against Christianity. I've studies several of the Jesus myth quacks that the MAIN motivation is to TRASH Christianity BECAUSE THEY DESPISE IT!! They are NOT interested in doing academic work with no bias, only looking at whats likely¬ likely.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty The information left after stripping away the religious positions of the gospels, Paul, other Christian writings, "Q", Tacitus, Josephus, Piney etc etc is indeed small. But there is enough left to show that Jesus of Nazareth DID exist, lead a small Jewish cult which included Peter & his brother James, he did says a few things that exist in the record, Paul met his followers, Polycarp met a follower, Josephus/Tacitus DID report his death by Pilate. No forgeriy
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Dr. Burton L. Mack, PhD who is an ATHEIST and NT scholar & expert on reconstructing the lost "Q" document, author of the famous book "Who Wrote the New Testament, The Making of the Christian Myth" told me exactly that. That the evidence that Jesus lived is scanty but there IS enough left to show he did live & we can recover some of this actual sayings & reconstruct much of the original Jesus cult. Why do your IGNORE Mack & go with amateurs with NO PhD? Stupid
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 “two dozen skeptical scholars in my library” and this is your evidence against the article that I presented? Furthermore, do any of your Ph’Ds authors present evidence against the fact that Christian fans dominate the field? No, they don’t. So Pleeeeaaaase, shut the freack up until you can actually present evidence that completely debunks what the article is saying. Stupid
AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Fitzgearld lies: "Origen wrote Josephus said nothing about Jesus" Truth: Origen quoted the shorter James brother of Jesus called Christ passage three times & wrote Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Christ/Messiah NOT JOSEPHUS WROTE NOTHING ABOUT JESUS. Lie number two: Only Christians assume the James passage is about the Jesus of the Bible. Just a quick look at Josephus on Wiki shows almost EVERY Josephus expert holds that!!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 “I am so fucking tired of the Jesus myth crowd being loose w/ facts” Mr. “Upfront with the truth” can you tell the audience what kind of Ph’d does your Dr. Golberg have?
AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Another lie. Eusebius forged the TF in Josephus. There is NOT a shred of evidence to support such a view. And the TOP Josephus experts living today hold the TF was NOT forged but written by Josephus. That a later Christian scribe made a couple of minor changes but NOT to Jesus being executed by Pilate. Feldman is a Jew. Whealey (I spoke with her on the phone) is an agnostic & not religious. Goldberg is not religious & A SCIENTIST!!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Eusebius wrote it is okay to lie or bend the truth in support of the faith. That is another Fitzgearld lie also repeated by Jesus myth liars. There is NO Eusebius quote like that but a quote written more than a century AFTER Eusebius lived by another author. Fitzgearld saying stuff wouldn't stand up in court? Well that wouldn't either would it?
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Fitzgearld: "Early Christian writers loved to quote Josephus but NEVER quote the "TF". That is a lie. Origen quoted the shorter James passage three times & wrote Josephus didn't believe Jesus was Messiah. Probably used the TF for that as most experts hold that the original matched Jerome's copy "he was thought to be the Christ" rather than the gloss "was the Christ" which was a change in the reading added later by a Christian scribe.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Also what early Christian apologists beside Origen (when pagan Rome controlled Josephus rather than Christian Rome) quotes Josephus. What evidence is there that even Origen had a complete copy of Josephus or a copy at all but just what some Roman wrote about Josephus. Also in Justin Martyr's genuine letters there is NO mention of Josephus AT ALL! PROOF THAT JUSTIN HAD READ OR EVEN HEARD OF JOSEPHUS!!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty When one actually takes the time to SPEAK with PhD level experts such as Ehrman, Tabor, Feldman & Whealey ( I spoke to Alice Whealey on the phone at her home in California) you quickly learn, when you ask the right questions concerning the Jesus myth crowd, how they spin & lie about what is known & not known about this subject to make it look as if Jesus never existed, Josephus' TF is a forgery, the gospels contain NO historical information etc etc. What BS!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@boblackey1 This is another article that confirms the fact that Christians completely dominate bible scholarship: wwwDOTbibleinterpDOTcom/opeds/wars357902DOTshtml
Nice paragraphs & also nice dodging of the questions, very Xtian of you. When you’re ready to honestly answer the questions and stop your circular debating & dodging, we’ll continue the conversation. Until then, I’ll let you stay in your fairytale world of “objective” bible scholarship & their Ph’ds Xtian ruled members.
AgrippaTheMighty 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Your addy doesn't work! says "Error. URL server not found". I guess it is an article pissed off & claiming that 99% of PhD NT scholars are believing Christians. But I disagree with that. There are dozens & dozens of scholars who are NOT practicing Christians & are agnostic like me. But only one of the dozens & dozens I know about doubts Jesus existed. Robert Price PhD. I KNOW there are PhD's who are believers & defend the NT such as F. F. Bruce. So what??
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty I haven't dodged anything!! You have evidence SUPPORTING Fitzgearld making the same mistake as other Jesus myth supports that Origen wrote Josephus didn't write a thing about Jesus? Or that ONLY Christian apologists support the view that the "TF" isn't a forgery but contains a minor interpolation w/ rest written by Josephus including his execution by Pilate. Or the shorter James passage is only claimed to be from Josephus by Christians? You defend that shit?
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Or that early Christian apologists LOVED to quote Josephus all the time but never mention the TF because it didn't exist? Where is the support for that lie? Justin Martyr NEVER mentions Josephus AT ALL & a Jesus myth support CAN'T KNOW if Justin Martyr ever heard of Josephus or read ONE LINE from Josephus!! Where is the proof Eusebius ever wrote it is Okay to lie & write falsehoods for the faith when it's from another man over a century later!!
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Why do Jesus myth supporters ALWAYS FAIL to mention Pines work on the Arab copy & never mention Jerome's copy of Josephus reads "was believed to be the Messiah" rather than "was the Messiah" as do extant copies that exist today that date ONLY to the 10th century? Why do they fail the mention that the best known Josephus scholars including Feldman (a Jew not Christian) & Whealey (an agnostic) hold Josephus DID write the TF & later a scribe made a slight change?
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty AgrippaTheMighty! Are you ready to admit that I am right about that & much more I can bring to the table? I was raised Christian but now am agnostic & don't attend a church. I learned ALL of the from agnostic/atheist scholars & became interested when someone gave me Earl's book "Jesus Puzzle" over 10 years ago. I wondered can this be right? Jesus never even existed. So I made a decision NOT to consult ANY book written by a Christian to see if this is right.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty All the works I got my hands on (Ehrman, Funk, Tabor, Edwards, Mack, Miller, Crosson, Feldman, Whealey etc etc etc) were written by agnostic or atheist or other religion (Dr. Feldman is a practicing Jew) on NT/Christian origins & Josephus, Tacitus & Pliny. The ONLY support I could find by a PhD working or interested in this field for the Jesus myth was Price & Carrier & BOTH admit that Jesus could have existed but little can be known about him if he did.
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
@AgrippaTheMighty AgrippaTheMighty. Are YOU ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN Jesus never existed & the entire Jesus story is made up whole cloth? That Jesus was never executed by Pilate? That the two passages in Josephus are COMPLETE forgeries? That Tacitus is a forgery? Do you join with confirmed Jesus mythers Acharya S, Frank Zindler & Ken Humphreys that Paul never existed & all his letters are forgeries? Do you agree with Atwill that Josephus conspired with Rome to fake Christianity?
boblackey1 2 weeks ago
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AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@boblackey1 “Your addy doesn't work! says "Error. URL server not found” Why is it working in my computer but not in yours? It looks like a cope out. “I haven't dodged anything!!” You answered, “What kind of PhD does Dr. Goldberg” Yes, you are dodging since you have not provided a clear answer to a simple question: Goldberg’s Ph’d. You don’t want us to see your lack of being upfront. And you have not presented any evidence against the previous article, only your disagreement.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty I JUST tried it two more times & got the same page. "URL for wars357902DOTshtml" is not found. That makes THREE times. Any other suggestions. Maybe the homepage where the article is found? What kind of PhD does David Fitzgearld have? What about Frank Zindler? Or Acharya S? Or Earl Doherty? Or Ken Humphreys? Dr. Goldberg's is in physics but he has studied Josephus for over 25 years. Write at his Email link. Alice Whealey's & Louis Feldman's r n the right field!
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Are you expecting me to take David Fitzgearld seriously WITHOUT a PhD in this field or ANY FIELD FOR THAT MATTER!! What about Acharya S? Take her seriously with NO PhD in ANY field. Doherty no PhD in ANY field? Zindler no PhD in ANY field. So what is wrong with Dr. Goldberg who also has NO PhD in this field but DOES have one in physics!! And has been a Josephus scholar without a PhD for over 25 years. You think he may be more qualified than Fitzgeard on Joe?
boblackey1 1 week ago
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AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@boblackey1 “Dr. Goldberg who also has NO PhD in this field but DOES have one in physics” I’m qualified to perform an operation on a human being because I have a Ph’D in art history. Can’t you see the major bullshit in this type of thinking? And you accuse us of being loose w/ facts, when I had to ask you 3 times about Golberg’s degree.
Here is the link again: h t t pCOLUMN//wwwDOTbibleinterpDOTcom/opeds/wars357902DOTshtm
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Well what then is David Fitzgearld qualified to do? What is his PhD in? Art History? Biochemistry? Christian origins? The works of Josephus & Tacitus? Or is it NOT true that Fitzgeard has NO PhD? That is true isn't it? NO PhD? Right? And do you agree Fitzgearld is being VERY LOOSE with the facts don't you? I bet even you were embarrassed when you heard Fitzgearld say Origen wrote "Josephus wrote nothing about Jesus". You know better than that.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 You’re still dodging the original question, and you still have a warped view of what a university degree is. Having a Ph’D does not convert the holder of such deed into the source of all facts and truths.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty So then all the damn lies (or repeating lies & mistakes other jesus myth crack heads hold) is due to the fact David Fitzgearld has NO PhD. This man isn't qualified to render a professional opinion on this subject anymore than you or me. I listened to this video & the number of falsehoods is striking! If Fitzgearld is going to use other Jesus myth supporters as a source, he better start checking where they got their info so he doesn't look like a f*ing fool.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 “professional opinion on this subject anymore than you or me" or Dr. Golberg, right? Mr. “dogding questions”. We can continue our interesting conversation when you can bring proof to the table that nullifies the evidence that it is a Christian dominated field. I’m tired of seeing your never-ending circular debate, and your continual dodging.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty I am sorry but my computer will not show that page. I went to the actual website & found it to be a site from a Wesleyan university in Indiana. But was unable to find the article. Of course you provided me this article to show that the majority of PhD level experts in the field of Christian origins & NT scholarship are believers in the Christian faith. I don't know what the percentages are but for over a century conservatives have been trashing the liberals.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Modern conservative scholars & believers N. T. Wright & Luke Timothy Johnson are continually bashing liberal/critical scholars for being hyper critical. The Roman Catholic scholars & websites do the same. For example the Catholic Church has a site entirely devoted to defend Paul's authorship of 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus complete with long scholarly defense papers written by well educated Catholic experts. Most critical scholars reject Paul as author.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Bart Ehrman's latest book "Forged" (btw Ehrman has an online book out now that supports Jesus existing as a historical person) is being trashed by PhD level conservative scholars worldwide.For example, Ehrman's view that only 7 of Paul's letters are genuine & rest were forged by liars misses important facts. Paul likely dictated several letters to scribes & their style would be incorporated into the text. Perceived change in theology also explained that way.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Clearly your implication is this. If the majority of PhD level experts in Christian origins were NOT Christians, then the Jesus myth theory would dominate the field. That is easy to refute. After I was given a copy of Earl Doherty's "Jesus Puzzle" over 10 years ago, I decided to see what critical experts say on the subject. Found just ONE out of 25. Robert Price who doubted Jesus existed. The rest reject his divinity, virgin birth, 85% of his quotes etc.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Also answer this! I bet you will not and you will continue to DODGE this question that I've asked before. If Gary Goldberg, PhD (physics) is NOT qualified to render a professional opinion on Josephus (Dr. Goldberg has been an amateur Josephus scholar for over 25 years plus a scientist) then Fitzgearld who has NO PhD in ANYTHING can't render a professional opinion on the historical Jesus! ISN'T THAT RIGHT? Goldberg is worthless & so is Fitzgearld. Right?
boblackey1 1 week ago
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AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@boblackey1 It is a fact that people with Ph’Ds suffer from educational myopia, i.e. they know a lot about a very specific subject but have a lack of broad understanding that undergrad students or Bachelors’ degree holder experience. For example, it is practically never a Ph’D possessor that broadens our view of computer sciences but often a broad thinking undergrad student that creates realities like Microsoft, Google & Facebook. Wake up.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty It is true that experts do work with ideas their students discuss. I'm reminding of the book "Evolution from Space" by Sir Fred Hoyle and one of his students who was doing his PhD UNDER Hoyle's supervision at Cambridge in England, Chandra Wickramasinghe, PhD. This book was my first experience at thinking life may have come from outerspace. Most experts today continue to reject this view but not as many as in 1981 when Evolution From Space was published.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty But where is the evidence that any of the Jesus myth supporters are an undergrad student or hold a Bachelors in the field of Christian & New Testament origins. There are two that I like & read who like the Jesus myth theory. Richard Carrier, who recently got his PhD, and Robert Price, PhD. But TAKE NOTE! While they agree that the conclusions of some of the Jesus myth authors are compelling & interesting, these two are NOT dogmatic& say Jesus could have existed
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty And you should like the fact that Richard Carrier has a book coming about Jesus likely being a myth & Carrier is interested in trying to get more of the experts to consider this as a possibility, so when he has the opportunity to speak at gatherings of critical NT scholars, he often will suggest in his talk that it's possible that the religion originated without a historical Jesus. Bart Ehrman & the others right now, just don't buy it.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty This field isn't like computer science at all. This field is dealing with the past of 2,000 years ago. And until new evidence if found in digs etc, things are not likely to change much. Do you know that a tiny fragment of Mark's gospel is among the material found with the dead sea scrolls? Most experts doubt it is really from Mark. But computer analysis says it is & it's been dated by multiple experts at around 50 CE. The oldest fragment of John is 125CE.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty But dating these ancient fragments is not exact! So the date 125CE for the fragment of John's gospel includes plus or minus 40 years! If it's PLUS 40 years, then that is good news for the Jesus myth authors who insist ALL the gospels were forged in the second century. If it MINUS 40 years, then the Christian scholars are correct and John is late FIRST century with the other three even older. Most critical scholars date the other 3 first century&john early 2nd.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 I did answer your question and it went right past you. Educational myopia is still very prevalent among scholars with a Ph’D. The reason why it is undergrad students & not computer science Ph’D holders that expand our world of computing, it is because of the broad view of these undergrad individuals. Get it into your head. Also, you continue to dodge the fact that biblical scholarship is still a Christian dominated field.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty I'm not sure that Christian PhD holders dominate the field of New Testament/Christian origins. Sure all the various denominations have their PhD scholars & apologists to probe & defend the faith. But my library contains books by over 20 scholars who either were NEVER a Christian (i.e. Mack, Maccoby, Miller) or lost the faith (i. e. Crosson, Ehrman). Dominic Crosson WAS a Roman Catholic Priest but went critical & was kicked out.Ehrman's work caused agnosticism.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty YOU continue to DODGE my question about Dr. Goldberg of wwwDOTjosephusDOTorg fame. If Dr. Goldberg (whom I swapped Email & says he isn't interested in the historical Jesus,only Josephus' work)..If Goldberg isn't qualified to have a professional opinion on Josephus since he is really an amateur as his PhD is in physics, then IS Fitzgearld qualified to have a professional opinion about Jesus? Fitzgearld CLEARLY holds Jesus never existed. NO PhD goes that far.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty So again!! I want to know IF Gary Goldberg, PhD (physics) is JUST AS QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ABOUT THE WORK OF JOSEPHUS AS FITZPATRICK IS ABOUT JESUS OF NAZARETH???? Also how in the hell could it be that David Fitzpatrick, who's lecture is riddled with mistakes, be SUPERIOR than, say, Bart Ehrman about the question if Jesus even lived as a man? And the last question is: What is YOUR position about Jesus of Nazareth? Myth? Could have lived as man? Did live as a man?
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 There is evidence that this is obviously a Christian dominated field, and I think you’re just ignoring the different articles that I’m bringing to your attention. 2 dozen different non-Christians is not evidence of a population at all. “YOU continue to DODGE my question about Dr. Goldberg” I answered it by demonstrating that a Ph’D is irrelevant or even detrimental for a broader view. So Fitzgerald is in as good a position or better as anybody doing the proper research.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty But Fitzgearld's lecture is riddled with mistakes!!! Do you know that? Do you know the mistakes in his presentation?
So Dr. Goldberg is as good as anybody when commenting on research done on Josephus?
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 Because of its limiting Christian restrictions, we can’t trust what these scholars (including your JosephusDOTorg) are saying since they’re unwilling to declare Jesus mythical when the available evidence has big red flags that deny him a historical status.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty There are NO big red flags that deny Jesus historical status!!! NONE!! That is ALL bullshit and spin. It's like those who deny the holocaust happened! So to you ALL of the PhD level NON-Christian scholars such as Erhman, Mack, Edwards, Crosson CAN'T be trusted? Are they idiots & fools who can't do the work properly? Can you provide ANY evidence that Gary Goldberg, PhD IS a Christian? You're just pissed because Goldberg has demonstrated Josephus WROTE the TF!
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty The evidence for a historical Jesus is small. But there IS ENOUGH THERE, WHEN ONE CONNECTS ALL THE DOTS, THERE IS LITTLE DOUBT JESUS EXISTED & WAS EXECUTED BY PILATE ABOUT 29/30 CE. People such as Robert Fitzgearld are guilty of HYPER-skepticism & DISHONEST SPIN!! And Fitzgearld is either lying or isn't even aware of the facts as he is mistaken several times in this lecture. And I mean some BIG mistakes which is why Ehrman laughs at people like that.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Do you trust David Fitzgearld to have his facts right?
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 “Are they idiots & fools …?” No they are not idiots or fools, that’s why they stay within the limits that Christianity has imposed upon them. When are you going to get this into your thick head?
First, you say Robert and then David Fitzgerald. Please, get your facts straight.
“Goldberg has demonstrated Josephus WROTE the TF” yeah, I’m very pissed at that “demonstration” especially when NOBODY mentions the TF until Eusebius, another circular debate.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty "that is why they stay within the limits that Christianity has imposed upon them" BULLSHIT!!! Why then are they being TRASHED by conservative scholars & pastors? Jesus wasn't the son of god. Wasn't divine. Only uttered about 15% of his gospel quotes. The virgin birth is a myth. 2/3 of the stories in the gospels are myth & legend. His small group of original followers & Jesus himself were not expecting Jesus to end up executed.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Half of the books in the NT are forgeries. The gospel of John has much interpolation & redaction & re-writes on top of the original work. Paul borrowed much from the mystery religions of his day & his version of Christianity is much different from the original Jesus movement in Jerusalem and on and on. Critical scholars have painted a picture of Christianity that makes it false. It is outrageous to make your claim about critical scholars being limited.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Two of the best known Josephus experts in the world today hold that Josephus wrote the "TF" & their books on Josephus are HUGE (an expensive too). Louis Feldman, PhD of New York University is JEWISH & has been translating & researching Josephus for over 50 years. Alice Whealey PhD, author of "Josephus on Jesus from Antiquity to Modern Times" was asked by ME when I called her if she in an active Christian or raised Christian and she said "NO".
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty I then ask Dr. Whealey why she holds that Josephus wrote the TF. She said that is the conclusion all the evidence she examined carefully led to. She said their is little doubt the passage pre-dates Eusebius & his copy read "was believed to be the Messiah" rather than "WAS the Messiah". And there is NO evidence Eusebius forged it. That it's very likely Origen's copy also contained the same wording but Origen ONLY quoted the James brother of Jesus passage..
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty But she said Origen also wrote that "Josephus didn't not believe in Jesus as the Messiah". Also when Origen wrote, Josephus' works were kept by PAGAN Rome not Christian Rome & one can't even be certain Origen had a copy but could have been quoting another person's quotes or Origen may not have had a complete copy. There is NO evidence that Justin Martyr ever read or even heard of Josephus so claiming he avoided Josephus because nothing was there is bullshit.
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Dr. Pines demonstrated (and Feldman & Whealey agrees) that an Arab version is close to the original & at the crucial point it also read "was thought to be the Christ" by his followers which agrees with Jerome's copy. Goldberg has shown scientifically that Josephus used the same source about Jesus that the author of Luke used in a portion of his gospel. Josephus USED source material about Jesus & apparently never interviewed a person he knew Jesus says Goldber
boblackey1 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Sorry about the mistake. I must have been thinking of Robert Price when I typed Robert Fitzpatrick! But why should that bother you? Fitzgearld makes many mistakes in his lecture! Do you know what they are?
boblackey1 1 week ago
@boblackey1 “Why then are they being TRASHED by conservative scholars & pastors?” The same way that these conservative scholars & pastors trash very liberal Christian religions like the Anglicans who don’t take the bible literally either. It isn’t bullshit. Yes, these liberal scholars heavily promote a non-literal interpretation of the Bible, but they will only go so far. None of the pre-Eusebius fathers mention the TF. But the TF is not a contemporary eyewitness account anyhow.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty That is a constant mistake made by most Jesus myth people about pre-Eusebius fathers. They give the impression that ALL of them quote Josephus & quote him often when the opposite is true. It's rare for a early church father to quote Josephus. I REPEAT!!! There is NOT ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT JUSTIN MARTYR, FOR EXAMPLE, EVER HEARD OF JOSEPHUS OR READ HIM. NONE!! It is not certain Origen had a copy. Dr. Whealey thinks Origen was using another person's work...
boblackey1 6 days ago
@AgrippaTheMighty another person's work who did the quoting from Josephus. Sure Origen quoted the shorter "James brother of Jesus called Christ" passage three times & he wrote Josephus DID NOT BELIEVE JESUS WAS THE CHRIST (never did he say Josephus never mentioned Jesus, Fitzgearld is lying or misinformed about that) BUT Origen also quotes Josephus when the actual quote is NOT from Josephus but another ancient author!! Whealey gave me the name of the other author if you want it
boblackey1 6 days ago
@boblackey1 Again, I have presented evidence with a least 3 articles of a heavily Christian dominated Bible scholarship, but so far your response has been “my computer can’t show that article.” What about the other 2? The Xtian world has a monopoly on it, heavily discriminating against the non-believing scholars. This tiny minority will not dare cross some well-demarked lines such as declaring Jesus a fable. Why is Jesus not a myth while other gods are? Answer: Xtian censorship.
AgrippaTheMighty 1 week ago
@AgrippaTheMighty That IS correct. I can NOT get that article to come up. I can get the home page to come up & that is when I discovered the website is a Christian site for a Wesleyan University. I never noticed the other two. Give them to me again. All I know is there are dozens & dozens of critical scholars who's work destroys Christianity as a true religion. But you say they are unwilling to cross certain lines. That is BULLSHIT. Bart Ehrman told me he isn't censored at all!
boblackey1 6 days ago
@AgrippaTheMighty Dr. Ehrman told me via Email that he is not a Christian, does not attend a church & would not any church or group of conservative scholars control his work and conclusions. That he holds the Jesus DID exist as a man ONLY because he see all the available evidence pointing to that. And I agree. It is the ONLY conclusion one came hold unless one wants to be HYPER & claim all these people are lying or their work has been invaded by lying Christians.
boblackey1 6 days ago
@AgrippaTheMighty And in closing, the critical/liberal scholars DO hold that Jesus Christ is a myth!!! But that the Jesus who had an early first century cult & did say a few words that made it into the gospels, was noticed by Josephus & Tacitus etc & executed by Pilate under the reign of Tiberius, knew John the Baptist, had 3 followers named Peter & John & his brother James, who originally thought Jesus was out of his mind (that is even in the gospels) actually lived. He did!
boblackey1 6 days ago