Thanks for the idea on the new approach. I have to agree that most people learn it too fast, but when it's performing it should be different. Musicians now perform anything that was written(including etudes). The piece was originally composed as an etude. Tempo marking was set specifically to exercise the accents for certain technique(s)(as of any other etudes). We should not assume, when played as a concert piece, be done the same exact way.
@RevolutionizeMusic I did not get what the clip at the end was trying to show except it being played slower. The slower tempo written by Chopin was to go with the accents, which I didn't hear. For me, practicing and performing are 2 different situations. If this piece was to be performed by Chopin, he wouldn't have played it slow with all accents.
@honron21 thanks for the reply! You're right in that we can never unveal the whole truth, but there is a mathematic evidence in the metronome markings. It's either to be played literaly or to be read as a double beat. And for that... there is ample proof that it was double beat. it seems to be strange, but one of the rare things that left of this tradition is the way we count our hart beats... If we say 76 bpm, we mean 76x n and 76x out, so 144. Luckily our hart follows the old reading
hmmm....I am confused, as far as I can hear, the ashkenazy performance has no mistakes in it! I am positive there are none in that clip anyway, so whats he going on about???
so great to hear this at a slower pace........the beauty of the song is apparent at "full" speed but perhaps the most beautiful at the half pace..................
@sunamiassault the tune is most beautiful at this half pace......i've heard it at super fast and it's superb at that but the richness really shows at the half pace....
I notice that these comments are virtually all about _piano_ playing per se. This is rather different from _musicality_ and musical storytelling, that the real masters focused on. Chopin is rightly never considered in the first rank of composers - nor are many of the "modern" composers cited from which pianists today supposedly receive their musical education. Making music is not exclusively about velocity and loudness, as Mr Gould, with a technique as good as ANYONE, amply demonstrated.
Wouldn't smaller keys and lighter action make this piece easier? The most difficult thing for me about this piece is my hands are too small to reach some of those cruel stretches such as the c - eflat - a - eflat arpeggio...
I think the larger point of the video has to do with detaching Chopin from the cult of 'velocity virtuosity". Taking the tempo down a bit, even a good bit, renders the music more intelligible, and still exciting.
There has been written 75 reactions to this video. It seems to everybody an interesting object. Hopefully pianist think about this item. Now we live in a totally different culture than in the time of Chopin. Chopin has had his musical education with Bach, Mozart and Haydn. Pianists of today are educated with Rachmaninov, Skriabin, Debussy, Ravel, Bartók. That's a world of difference. The technical demands to a modern pianist are not at all comparable to that of a pianist of the year 1830.
This is silly... If a pianist can't play this etude then they need to practice more! Anybody can play it with the right technique and enough hours spent practicing. In fact, in my experience, I've many more pianists have problems with Op. 10 no. 2, and Op. 25 no. 6.
At 2:20 the author simply dismisses the idea that the lighter-action Viennese piano would make the etude easier to play. OF COURSE a lighter action would make it easier to play!! Try this piece on a Steinway and then try it on a Pleyel with a light action, and you'll see the difference! At 3:36 he acknowledges that the time signature indicates "a fast 4/4 movement". The operative word is FAST. This video is just an attempt to justify a slower tempo for those who cannot play the etude fast.
@karlakor Thank you for your comment. To be correct, the piece was composed not for a Pleyel, but for a Graf. The lighter action (and smaller keys!) are in no way helpfull for a fast performance. No double action. Touch and tone must be much preciser on a Vien. piano than on a Steinway. That needs time.
Conc. the word 'fast', it means simply what it means, "faster" than a "normal" 4/4. Not a formule 1 tempo.
And, BTW, I played the piece in Ferrari tempo at my graduation in Amsterdam...
regarding the accents I have to say, they are there to help you to play it actually that fast. The thumb plays the bottom note of each chord going upward. So you wanna keep that note as light as possible and then roll the chord up towards the accented note. With a good hand postion, and I am sure Chopin had a good technique, it's a piece of cake. Takes of course some practice, but totally doable.
I don't think this is right at all. What about the other etudes? For example opus 10/no12. Played at a tempo that whould match this interpretation of opus10/no1, it would be very "unrevolutinary". The theme would not sound very convincing.
But for all pianists who are unable to play opus 10/1 at the right tempo, this approach might be very soothing!
@BlazeKenny You're right, but that isn't the point. We can assume that an étude that Chopin wrote at 19yrs should not put Cortot for too much trouble... And apparently it did... because, even when he did not care much about wrong notes, why should he choose to play them if he could easily avoid them? Besides, it is not necessary any more to proof that this theory is correct, more than enough evidence has therefore be produced, the question is where the proof is of our modern understanding...
@WimWintersMusician Yeah but it was also one of the first recording ever. Nobody cared about hundred times repeating a piece to make a perfect recording .
Cortot played the Chopin etudes because there was no other recording, and because he was a renowned Chopin specialist and one of the best pianist of his time.
But more to the point, why play everything forte? Where does Chopin mark forte? The notes between the accents are HARMONIC, not melodic - just as in Bach. The melody is the cantus-firmus in the bass. Chopin wanted his students to play lightly and with ease and I think it is from this angle that the etudes should be approached.
I am not convinced. The real point of this etude lies in its harmonic speed, not the speed of the semiquavers; which means that taking it too slow (or too fast) will obscure the structure. The same applies to op 25 no 12. I agree that the tendency to play the etude very fast and fortissimo undermines the music, but so does taking it too slow as I believe you do here. The etude is based on Bach's C major Prelude and I would suggest that the HARMONIC speed should be something similar.
I wanted to disagree with you - until I heard the actual slow performance. Beautiful! You can feel the etude's roots in Bach stronger. Nevertheless, I'm sure even Liszt was already playing this piece presto. The tradition of playing these work presto goes WAY back.
Thanks for the nice comment. One word: "being sur" ... is unfortunately not enough to be considered as "evidence"... e.g. concerning Liszt, comparing many sources gives another idea of Liszt. Read Czerny, Moscheles, Schindler (!), all about 1840, commenting on the increase speed of pianists, except... Liszt, or Widor (the Fr. organist), hearing Liszt practising in the early '70s, stating that he played so expressive, but... all much slower than today... as stated in 1840... Speed is relative!
@WimWintersMusician Definitely an interesting discussion! Your strongest argument is the notation of the early editions (but what about the original manuscript?). But I find the argument that "it must be played slower because it's too difficult" very weak; doesn't that imply that ALL romantic music should be played at a comfortable tempo? But that would be ludicrous! Are all the Chopin etudes to be played at moderate tempo, or just this one?
@hymntonight. Not just the etudes... (almost) all MM marks (most early 19th for sure) must be regarded as a "schlag" which means 2 "tics'. It was common until mid 19th to use this double beat. In all kind of 'science', also e.g. medicine. Even today our hart"beat' is considered as to consist out of two 'tics'... And: what is difficult? ONLY speed? Read Beethovens comments on Cramers etudes... not one word on speed... only on accentuation and interpretation... Read the recent book of Gadient!
@WimWintersMusician That's a bold, and fascinating, claim! I've always believed that Baroque music is played much faster today than it probably was in its era; however, I always saw the Romantic era as the birth of the "play-as-fast-as-you-dare" outlook of virtuoso playing. I would be interested in reading that book by Gadient. What's the title?
@hymntonight I have two for you: Dr. Lorenz Gadient, “Takt und Pendelschlag - Quellentexte zur musikalischen Tempomessung des 17. bis 19. Jahrhunderts neu betrachtet”, Musikverlag Bernd Katzbichler 2010, ISBN 978-3-87397-348-1.
Dr. Henrico Stewen, “The Straube Code - Deciphering the Metronome Marks in Max Reger’s Organ Music”, Sibelius Academy 2008, ISBN 978-952-5531-38-1.
It is so evident... the hart feels it but our mind is so slow in adapting to something new... we only see what we know...
Try playing Op. 10 No. 12 at the same tempo (why not?) for a nice reductio ad adsurdum. Op. 10 No. 1 is a runaway five-part chorale; at this tempo it is the longest chorale in the world.
I think the normal tempo most pianists play at is very feasible. I disagree with you when you explain how difficult it is. It really isn't that difficult. I can understand however, how many pianists, especially ones with a bit smaller hands would have to labor over this piece for a while.
I'm wondering if Chopin would write a so easy study and devote it to Liszt. In this tempo, i can play this study. In the common tempo the technique difficulty appears, and i'm lightyears to play it
Frankly, I think the fast tempo is fine. And Cortot was not (never) a perfect pianist - don't judge him against the pianists of our day... Also, his own exercises found in his editions of the etudes makes them possible to play without resorting to such odd methods. I would know - I've learned 3 of them, including this one and the Revolutionary, this way.
Could you summarise your argument as to why the marking should be treated as referring to quavers instead of crotchets? Did you make even a single point that in any way supports that theory? If so, I honestly did not detect it.
but Chopin himself says that Liszt was the only one how could play this piece how he wanted. Liszt was the most technical person how ever lived. So don't you thing we all play it in the right tempo?
Dear Wim, I am willing to believe in the half-tempo theory. But there is one thing I don't understand. When you put the metronome on 176 you hear two fast ticks, but you count only one. Is this not confusing? Or, has the pianists at that time put the metronome on 88?
@GerardvanR . Dear Gerard, thanks for your comment.
No, it's very simple. In fact, it is easier since you have the 8th note as a 'tic'. And keep in mind that the metronome was not meant to learn to play strictly in time, but to indicate the correct tempo...
By the way, the new book of Lorenz Gadient 'Tact und Pendelschlag' gives full proof of this 'idea'. Finally.
@WimWintersMusician , thanks for your explanation. I've already read the book of Lorenz Gadient. I shall look for this item again. Hopely it is then clear to me.
According to Ekier's book "About the Etudes", Chopin said "You shall benefit from this Etude. If you learn it according to my instructions it will expand your hand and enable you to perform arpeggios like strokes of the [violin] bow. Unfortunately, instead of teaching, it frequently un-teaches everything."
My question is why Chopin would say that a slow etude would un-teach everything. Playing it half tempo is quite easy, even to those with small hands.
This theory is a ridicule to Chopin's technical virtuosity. Once again, this is an Etude, which indicated that the pianist will face a challenge, playing it slow doesen't sound bad, but that's not the way Chopin intended it. Holding a perfect fast tempo in this etude is the very essence of difficulty in this piece, and it's a real pain learning it. All respect to Chopin for making such a difficult yet beautiful etude!
Although it is an interesting theory, I totally disagree with it.
First of all, playing the study that slow makes it sound really boring and too long. It totally erases the beautiful melody in the left hand tearing it apart in long notes in stead of a melodic line.
And then there is the fact that it is a study. Played at this speed, the difficulty is gone. Even I can play it that slow. It is contradicting with the other studies, which are much more difficult.
Please note that it is not a theory, but a proven fact that the MM-numbers should be read differently. I recommend reading the recent published book of Lorenz Gadient "Takt und Pendelschlag" (Katzbichler). We might not like to hear this, but so many sources (many of them new to me) are very clear on this.
That it sounds boring for someone who is used to a faster performance is normal. Just listen to it 3 times... and... playing this striclty legato is a very hard job...not easy!
@WimWintersMusician I will try to get hold of the book. I just have some more questions to you, things that aren't clear to me in the video:
* being a baroque musician, I have never heard of an alla breve meaning "fast 4/4 measure".
* you say the tempo is correct, you give us a beat on the metronome (about 176 per quarter note), and then you play it at a tempo of 80 per quarter note. why?
* why only this Etude, and not the others in 4/4? or even his other pieces?
@fluffytom82 An AB has the 8th note as fastest note value, not the 16th. Use of the AB-sign + 16th's is typical French 18th century, and picked up in Germany. It is a "mésure à 4 temps vite". Taking 4th note 4/4 bar tempo ordinario, as MM=60, an AB would be half note = 60. This etude is somewhere in between. And the theory is also to apply to other etudes, even to all MM-numbers we know from that time.
Mention the slight tempo rubato in measuring the tempo! Please read Czerny's opus 500.
@WimWintersMusician Montéclair says that the alla breve is a measure in two, which is sometimes (depending on the music) beaten in 4 to facilitate the execution. But that doesn't mean it becomes slower. They just beat twice as fast.
You have to admit that if you play the études half as fast, the "study-character" is completely gone. Also the musicality becomes much less obvious.
My Urtext edition gives a tempo of half note = 80. I'm curious to see what the autograph or 1st edition say.
@fluffytom82 That is correct, when you beat a real AB in 4, the tempo remains the same. Of course. BTW, there are several different 1ste editions (Germany, France,...) with small differences. The 19th century edition by Mikuli (pupil Chopin) is very good (some misprints). You must make an interpretation of the scores to play Chopin.
And concerning the study-character; it was a study written for keyboard players anno 1829, not for us...
Feel the "ruhigkeit" of the pulse. There is the musicality!
@WimWintersMusician You have raised an interesting question when you said, "Accepting something for granted which was not meant to be so...". I only wish that there were reproducing pianos back in 1830 for the original artists to show how pieces were meant to be played. And sometimes I do believe that some pianists wrote for artists that were not yet born i.e. liszt having to re-write some of his etudes so that they could be played by state of the art musicians at the time. Thank-you for post
... and that's how, one day all pianists at the same time forgot how to play this piece and just doubled the velocity... and nobody wrote it anywhere.
PS who listened Cziffra or Gavrilov? /watch?v=lSgf9wGo7gw
Hold every note of the chord until the play repositions his hand? This is utterly impossible unless the pianist has a hand that can stretch these intervals, and there are extremely few of those. Attempting to do so could result in serious injury to the hand. As for the tempo, it is generally accepted that tempos are slower today than they were even seventy years ago. I can't believe that the slow tempo advocated here could be what Chopin had in mind.
@Mustloveoranda : in fact, all tempi, from the allegro's on, should be played in "double beat" tempo, that is: let the metronome beat 2 times for one note value, as a simplified reduction of a conductor would do. So, yes, also the opus 25/12 is to be played according to this practice.
It's not necessary for this piece to hold every note, because Chopin indicated right pedal. He also notated legato, not legatissimo.
It is possible to play it in the indicated tempo without loosing the accents. Why do you assume that the metronome marking 176 is for a quaver and not for a crotchet as indicated by Chopin? Sorry, but you do convince me at all with your theory! (even if I do believe that it sounds fine when played a little slower...)
In any case, there are more etudes than just this one, to be performed at comparable speeds. What about Opp. 25 nos. 11 and 12? To perform them at half their speed diminishes their character. So it is with 10 no. 1. And quite simply, halving the speed of 10-1 makes it so easy as to render it useless as an etude. Also, was Widor talking about this piece specifically? Besides, people back then tended to use exaggerated vocabularies. Maybe 'playing at half speed' just meant slower than some.
Also, it's not fair to post Cortot's less than perfect performance to make a point. Anyone who reads up on him knows that he wasn't known for practicing very much.
In any case, a tempo this slow makes the piece lose its lines and flow, and it's the performer's job to bring out details while retaining clarity. It's supposed to be a challenge, after all.
You have an interesting idea, but I'd like to say that we have Rosenthal's recording of the piece here. He was a student of Liszt, and as we all know, Liszt was one of Chopin's closest friends.
Surely a student of a close friend of Chopin's, a well-respected and intelligent performer himself would have respected Chopin's intentions? These associations make me doubt your assumptions. Also, from experience- light, shallow keyboards make for much easier fast playing.
Thank you for the response. Do not consider the second generation "after" to perform in a historic jusified way. Just read and listen the remarks of Pugno (st. Mathias) and others. Widor had the opportunity to listen to Liszt playing at Erards castle in Paris late '70ties and was amazed of the effect he rendered, much more than other pianists of that time, playing almost two times slower... And like this I could continue for days. 75, 100, 125, 150 years... is a very long time...
It's very very improbable Chopin thank this etude in that speed. Compare the degree of dificulty of that one with the others etudes. The etude 1 gets a etude begginers, practically. It doesn´t match.
Don't we all wish... No, this is just wishful thinking. There is nothing that suggests the tempo of this popular piece should be halved. Of course it is challenging to play, but not impossible. That's why its called an etude (and Chopin wrote much harder ones) . Also, it is marked allegro, and that fits with the original marking. Lastly, the 1800s is not ancient Egypt. There are versions recorded by musicians who are old enough to have had teachers who know the real deal.
agreed debussy84. very interesting stuff....i think the correct tempo is absolutely 176 and not "half" of that. For a piece of music, this etude works well at 170-176. If its played at half the speed like on this video, its sounds just like an exercise. The only people who can really do this etude justice at 170+ on youtube is John Chen, Pollini, and Kissin so far.
It is the best, most adequate interpretation of this Étude I've ever heard. Because Wim Winters plays as an adult pianist, not as a child pianist (fast as possible) like all the "famous" pianists of the past (and the present...). Congratulations on this perfect, faultless interpretation!
4. Surely a lighter action (i.e., Chopin's piano) would make the stated tempo easier to play, and not harder?
5. Your performance - forgive me for saying so - does make the etude sound a bit like a Czerny study. To my mind the piece is driven not by the right-hand figuration, but rather by the chorale-like bass octaves in the left. Played this slow, the melody simply doesn't work.
People, this is not correct people, lol. If only this was the case. Even though we don't have chopin's recording, based on writtings from his pupils and that fact that he performed his etudes live, the metronome markings are correct. The urtext edition book i have of chopin's etudes explains ALL of Chopin's markings on his own handwritten original manuscripts in great detail for EACH etude, including the speeds indicated. Yes, its too fast for a modern heavy grand, but not for chopin's piano.
Absolutely right! I would like to see the definite END of the prestation (velocity?) oriented music performance in every instruments. Bravo Wim!!! Put more from your stuff, please!
Thanks for the idea on the new approach. I have to agree that most people learn it too fast, but when it's performing it should be different. Musicians now perform anything that was written(including etudes). The piece was originally composed as an etude. Tempo marking was set specifically to exercise the accents for certain technique(s)(as of any other etudes). We should not assume, when played as a concert piece, be done the same exact way.
RevolutionizeMusic 3 weeks ago
@RevolutionizeMusic I did not get what the clip at the end was trying to show except it being played slower. The slower tempo written by Chopin was to go with the accents, which I didn't hear. For me, practicing and performing are 2 different situations. If this piece was to be performed by Chopin, he wouldn't have played it slow with all accents.
RevolutionizeMusic 3 weeks ago
we can only suppose how it was, but there are no real poof of anything.
honron21 3 weeks ago
@honron21 thanks for the reply! You're right in that we can never unveal the whole truth, but there is a mathematic evidence in the metronome markings. It's either to be played literaly or to be read as a double beat. And for that... there is ample proof that it was double beat. it seems to be strange, but one of the rare things that left of this tradition is the way we count our hart beats... If we say 76 bpm, we mean 76x n and 76x out, so 144. Luckily our hart follows the old reading
WimWintersMusician 3 weeks ago
With practice my friends, nothing is too fast to play.
RhaegarTargaryen1884 3 weeks ago
hmmm....I am confused, as far as I can hear, the ashkenazy performance has no mistakes in it! I am positive there are none in that clip anyway, so whats he going on about???
UKpiano 3 weeks ago
so great to hear this at a slower pace........the beauty of the song is apparent at "full" speed but perhaps the most beautiful at the half pace..................
shakychevy 1 month ago
@shakychevy its great to listen to it like this for practice purposes to get the shape of it then practice
afertyus1000 3 weeks ago
Ok this is wrong and its half the speed this guy is nuts.
sunamiassault 1 month ago
@sunamiassault I know it can hurt :-(. Sorry for that but this is not an "idea", it is the outcome of academic research by many...
WimWintersMusician 1 month ago
@sunamiassault
shakychevy 1 month ago
@sunamiassault the tune is most beautiful at this half pace......i've heard it at super fast and it's superb at that but the richness really shows at the half pace....
shakychevy 1 month ago
I notice that these comments are virtually all about _piano_ playing per se. This is rather different from _musicality_ and musical storytelling, that the real masters focused on. Chopin is rightly never considered in the first rank of composers - nor are many of the "modern" composers cited from which pianists today supposedly receive their musical education. Making music is not exclusively about velocity and loudness, as Mr Gould, with a technique as good as ANYONE, amply demonstrated.
sdorr 1 month ago
I actually like this slower interpretation a lot, funnily enough. You should hear Cziffra playing it. Amazing.
Eztoez 1 month ago
Wouldn't smaller keys and lighter action make this piece easier? The most difficult thing for me about this piece is my hands are too small to reach some of those cruel stretches such as the c - eflat - a - eflat arpeggio...
bobomber 1 month ago
I think the larger point of the video has to do with detaching Chopin from the cult of 'velocity virtuosity". Taking the tempo down a bit, even a good bit, renders the music more intelligible, and still exciting.
daniel15671 1 month ago
There has been written 75 reactions to this video. It seems to everybody an interesting object. Hopefully pianist think about this item. Now we live in a totally different culture than in the time of Chopin. Chopin has had his musical education with Bach, Mozart and Haydn. Pianists of today are educated with Rachmaninov, Skriabin, Debussy, Ravel, Bartók. That's a world of difference. The technical demands to a modern pianist are not at all comparable to that of a pianist of the year 1830.
GerardvanR 2 months ago
This is silly... If a pianist can't play this etude then they need to practice more! Anybody can play it with the right technique and enough hours spent practicing. In fact, in my experience, I've many more pianists have problems with Op. 10 no. 2, and Op. 25 no. 6.
If something is hard to play... Practice it! :)
argonberyllium1 3 months ago
'the classic triad' ...nonsense: it is the variety of seventh and other chords....!
tempo? Chopin's MM= 176
chrisczajasager 4 months ago
At 2:20 the author simply dismisses the idea that the lighter-action Viennese piano would make the etude easier to play. OF COURSE a lighter action would make it easier to play!! Try this piece on a Steinway and then try it on a Pleyel with a light action, and you'll see the difference! At 3:36 he acknowledges that the time signature indicates "a fast 4/4 movement". The operative word is FAST. This video is just an attempt to justify a slower tempo for those who cannot play the etude fast.
karlakor 4 months ago 2
@karlakor Thank you for your comment. To be correct, the piece was composed not for a Pleyel, but for a Graf. The lighter action (and smaller keys!) are in no way helpfull for a fast performance. No double action. Touch and tone must be much preciser on a Vien. piano than on a Steinway. That needs time.
Conc. the word 'fast', it means simply what it means, "faster" than a "normal" 4/4. Not a formule 1 tempo.
And, BTW, I played the piece in Ferrari tempo at my graduation in Amsterdam...
WimWintersMusician 4 months ago
@karlakor
What are you talking about.. The Steinway pianos are very light-action!! I always play way too loud on Steinways, being used to Kawaii :P
Also used to mechanical organ... a lot heavier action than pianos
Kinjutsuu 1 day ago
regarding the accents I have to say, they are there to help you to play it actually that fast. The thumb plays the bottom note of each chord going upward. So you wanna keep that note as light as possible and then roll the chord up towards the accented note. With a good hand postion, and I am sure Chopin had a good technique, it's a piece of cake. Takes of course some practice, but totally doable.
MsKendoro 4 months ago
I don't think this is right at all. What about the other etudes? For example opus 10/no12. Played at a tempo that whould match this interpretation of opus10/no1, it would be very "unrevolutinary". The theme would not sound very convincing.
But for all pianists who are unable to play opus 10/1 at the right tempo, this approach might be very soothing!
MsKendoro 4 months ago
@MsKendoro You said it exactly! This entire video reeks of sour grapes.
karlakor 4 months ago
Im pretty sure Cortot would have no trouble playing it.
They didnt care so much about flawless techniques these days
BlazeKenny 5 months ago
@BlazeKenny You're right, but that isn't the point. We can assume that an étude that Chopin wrote at 19yrs should not put Cortot for too much trouble... And apparently it did... because, even when he did not care much about wrong notes, why should he choose to play them if he could easily avoid them? Besides, it is not necessary any more to proof that this theory is correct, more than enough evidence has therefore be produced, the question is where the proof is of our modern understanding...
WimWintersMusician 4 months ago
@WimWintersMusician Yeah but it was also one of the first recording ever. Nobody cared about hundred times repeating a piece to make a perfect recording .
Cortot played the Chopin etudes because there was no other recording, and because he was a renowned Chopin specialist and one of the best pianist of his time.
BlazeKenny 4 months ago
But more to the point, why play everything forte? Where does Chopin mark forte? The notes between the accents are HARMONIC, not melodic - just as in Bach. The melody is the cantus-firmus in the bass. Chopin wanted his students to play lightly and with ease and I think it is from this angle that the etudes should be approached.
paullanfear 5 months ago
I am not convinced. The real point of this etude lies in its harmonic speed, not the speed of the semiquavers; which means that taking it too slow (or too fast) will obscure the structure. The same applies to op 25 no 12. I agree that the tendency to play the etude very fast and fortissimo undermines the music, but so does taking it too slow as I believe you do here. The etude is based on Bach's C major Prelude and I would suggest that the HARMONIC speed should be something similar.
paullanfear 5 months ago
I wanted to disagree with you - until I heard the actual slow performance. Beautiful! You can feel the etude's roots in Bach stronger. Nevertheless, I'm sure even Liszt was already playing this piece presto. The tradition of playing these work presto goes WAY back.
hymntonight 5 months ago
Thanks for the nice comment. One word: "being sur" ... is unfortunately not enough to be considered as "evidence"... e.g. concerning Liszt, comparing many sources gives another idea of Liszt. Read Czerny, Moscheles, Schindler (!), all about 1840, commenting on the increase speed of pianists, except... Liszt, or Widor (the Fr. organist), hearing Liszt practising in the early '70s, stating that he played so expressive, but... all much slower than today... as stated in 1840... Speed is relative!
WimWintersMusician 5 months ago
@WimWintersMusician Definitely an interesting discussion! Your strongest argument is the notation of the early editions (but what about the original manuscript?). But I find the argument that "it must be played slower because it's too difficult" very weak; doesn't that imply that ALL romantic music should be played at a comfortable tempo? But that would be ludicrous! Are all the Chopin etudes to be played at moderate tempo, or just this one?
hymntonight 5 months ago
@hymntonight. Not just the etudes... (almost) all MM marks (most early 19th for sure) must be regarded as a "schlag" which means 2 "tics'. It was common until mid 19th to use this double beat. In all kind of 'science', also e.g. medicine. Even today our hart"beat' is considered as to consist out of two 'tics'... And: what is difficult? ONLY speed? Read Beethovens comments on Cramers etudes... not one word on speed... only on accentuation and interpretation... Read the recent book of Gadient!
WimWintersMusician 5 months ago
@WimWintersMusician That's a bold, and fascinating, claim! I've always believed that Baroque music is played much faster today than it probably was in its era; however, I always saw the Romantic era as the birth of the "play-as-fast-as-you-dare" outlook of virtuoso playing. I would be interested in reading that book by Gadient. What's the title?
hymntonight 5 months ago
@hymntonight I have two for you: Dr. Lorenz Gadient, “Takt und Pendelschlag - Quellentexte zur musikalischen Tempomessung des 17. bis 19. Jahrhunderts neu betrachtet”, Musikverlag Bernd Katzbichler 2010, ISBN 978-3-87397-348-1.
Dr. Henrico Stewen, “The Straube Code - Deciphering the Metronome Marks in Max Reger’s Organ Music”, Sibelius Academy 2008, ISBN 978-952-5531-38-1.
It is so evident... the hart feels it but our mind is so slow in adapting to something new... we only see what we know...
WimWintersMusician 5 months ago
I actually far prefer it in the slower tempo.
For one thing, it makes me seem a better pianist...
MRDRWWILLIAMS 6 months ago
regardless of the authenticity of the tempo it is nevertheless a very interesting interpretation. dare i say i like it better than at "normal" speed?
buglepong 6 months ago
Try playing Op. 10 No. 12 at the same tempo (why not?) for a nice reductio ad adsurdum. Op. 10 No. 1 is a runaway five-part chorale; at this tempo it is the longest chorale in the world.
EIDOSeidos 6 months ago
I think the normal tempo most pianists play at is very feasible. I disagree with you when you explain how difficult it is. It really isn't that difficult. I can understand however, how many pianists, especially ones with a bit smaller hands would have to labor over this piece for a while.
fierydog 6 months ago
I'm wondering if Chopin would write a so easy study and devote it to Liszt. In this tempo, i can play this study. In the common tempo the technique difficulty appears, and i'm lightyears to play it
luisguilhermeolbertz 6 months ago
@luisguilhermeolbertz
Maybe I exaggerate. At 170-200, for an amateur with a normal hand, that takes just a major tenth, it's really difficult to play without any mistakes.
luisguilhermeolbertz 6 months ago
Frankly, I think the fast tempo is fine. And Cortot was not (never) a perfect pianist - don't judge him against the pianists of our day... Also, his own exercises found in his editions of the etudes makes them possible to play without resorting to such odd methods. I would know - I've learned 3 of them, including this one and the Revolutionary, this way.
xtfcr7 6 months ago
Could you summarise your argument as to why the marking should be treated as referring to quavers instead of crotchets? Did you make even a single point that in any way supports that theory? If so, I honestly did not detect it.
wayneredhart 7 months ago
but Chopin himself says that Liszt was the only one how could play this piece how he wanted. Liszt was the most technical person how ever lived. So don't you thing we all play it in the right tempo?
PianoTricking 8 months ago
Dear Wim, I am willing to believe in the half-tempo theory. But there is one thing I don't understand. When you put the metronome on 176 you hear two fast ticks, but you count only one. Is this not confusing? Or, has the pianists at that time put the metronome on 88?
GerardvanR 8 months ago
@GerardvanR . Dear Gerard, thanks for your comment.
No, it's very simple. In fact, it is easier since you have the 8th note as a 'tic'. And keep in mind that the metronome was not meant to learn to play strictly in time, but to indicate the correct tempo...
By the way, the new book of Lorenz Gadient 'Tact und Pendelschlag' gives full proof of this 'idea'. Finally.
WimWintersMusician 8 months ago
@WimWintersMusician , thanks for your explanation. I've already read the book of Lorenz Gadient. I shall look for this item again. Hopely it is then clear to me.
GerardvanR 8 months ago
According to Ekier's book "About the Etudes", Chopin said "You shall benefit from this Etude. If you learn it according to my instructions it will expand your hand and enable you to perform arpeggios like strokes of the [violin] bow. Unfortunately, instead of teaching, it frequently un-teaches everything."
My question is why Chopin would say that a slow etude would un-teach everything. Playing it half tempo is quite easy, even to those with small hands.
What is your response to this quote?
FranzofL 9 months ago
This theory is a ridicule to Chopin's technical virtuosity. Once again, this is an Etude, which indicated that the pianist will face a challenge, playing it slow doesen't sound bad, but that's not the way Chopin intended it. Holding a perfect fast tempo in this etude is the very essence of difficulty in this piece, and it's a real pain learning it. All respect to Chopin for making such a difficult yet beautiful etude!
Mikael8335 10 months ago
Although it is an interesting theory, I totally disagree with it.
First of all, playing the study that slow makes it sound really boring and too long. It totally erases the beautiful melody in the left hand tearing it apart in long notes in stead of a melodic line.
And then there is the fact that it is a study. Played at this speed, the difficulty is gone. Even I can play it that slow. It is contradicting with the other studies, which are much more difficult.
fluffytom82 1 year ago
@fluffytom82
Please note that it is not a theory, but a proven fact that the MM-numbers should be read differently. I recommend reading the recent published book of Lorenz Gadient "Takt und Pendelschlag" (Katzbichler). We might not like to hear this, but so many sources (many of them new to me) are very clear on this.
That it sounds boring for someone who is used to a faster performance is normal. Just listen to it 3 times... and... playing this striclty legato is a very hard job...not easy!
WimWintersMusician 1 year ago
@WimWintersMusician I will try to get hold of the book. I just have some more questions to you, things that aren't clear to me in the video:
* being a baroque musician, I have never heard of an alla breve meaning "fast 4/4 measure".
* you say the tempo is correct, you give us a beat on the metronome (about 176 per quarter note), and then you play it at a tempo of 80 per quarter note. why?
* why only this Etude, and not the others in 4/4? or even his other pieces?
fluffytom82 1 year ago
@fluffytom82 An AB has the 8th note as fastest note value, not the 16th. Use of the AB-sign + 16th's is typical French 18th century, and picked up in Germany. It is a "mésure à 4 temps vite". Taking 4th note 4/4 bar tempo ordinario, as MM=60, an AB would be half note = 60. This etude is somewhere in between. And the theory is also to apply to other etudes, even to all MM-numbers we know from that time.
Mention the slight tempo rubato in measuring the tempo! Please read Czerny's opus 500.
WimWintersMusician 1 year ago
@WimWintersMusician Montéclair says that the alla breve is a measure in two, which is sometimes (depending on the music) beaten in 4 to facilitate the execution. But that doesn't mean it becomes slower. They just beat twice as fast.
You have to admit that if you play the études half as fast, the "study-character" is completely gone. Also the musicality becomes much less obvious.
My Urtext edition gives a tempo of half note = 80. I'm curious to see what the autograph or 1st edition say.
fluffytom82 1 year ago
@fluffytom82 That is correct, when you beat a real AB in 4, the tempo remains the same. Of course. BTW, there are several different 1ste editions (Germany, France,...) with small differences. The 19th century edition by Mikuli (pupil Chopin) is very good (some misprints). You must make an interpretation of the scores to play Chopin.
And concerning the study-character; it was a study written for keyboard players anno 1829, not for us...
Feel the "ruhigkeit" of the pulse. There is the musicality!
WimWintersMusician 1 year ago
@WimWintersMusician You have raised an interesting question when you said, "Accepting something for granted which was not meant to be so...". I only wish that there were reproducing pianos back in 1830 for the original artists to show how pieces were meant to be played. And sometimes I do believe that some pianists wrote for artists that were not yet born i.e. liszt having to re-write some of his etudes so that they could be played by state of the art musicians at the time. Thank-you for post
pianotuner101 10 months ago
this is andras schiff talking
24link135 1 year ago
interresting! but compared to other etudes, this would be strange then...
HomerJ666 1 year ago
Wow! It's nice to know that I always played it right. :-)
CiachoLover 1 year ago 9
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cicciontek 5 months ago
... and that's how, one day all pianists at the same time forgot how to play this piece and just doubled the velocity... and nobody wrote it anywhere.
PS who listened Cziffra or Gavrilov? /watch?v=lSgf9wGo7gw
cicciontek 5 months ago
Hold every note of the chord until the play repositions his hand? This is utterly impossible unless the pianist has a hand that can stretch these intervals, and there are extremely few of those. Attempting to do so could result in serious injury to the hand. As for the tempo, it is generally accepted that tempos are slower today than they were even seventy years ago. I can't believe that the slow tempo advocated here could be what Chopin had in mind.
karlakor 1 year ago
But you don´t play it in this metronome beat! (you play half the tempo.)
ellandelachapelle 1 year ago
@Mustloveoranda : in fact, all tempi, from the allegro's on, should be played in "double beat" tempo, that is: let the metronome beat 2 times for one note value, as a simplified reduction of a conductor would do. So, yes, also the opus 25/12 is to be played according to this practice.
WimWintersMusician 1 year ago
What do you mean with "martellato-technique"?
It's not necessary for this piece to hold every note, because Chopin indicated right pedal. He also notated legato, not legatissimo.
It is possible to play it in the indicated tempo without loosing the accents. Why do you assume that the metronome marking 176 is for a quaver and not for a crotchet as indicated by Chopin? Sorry, but you do convince me at all with your theory! (even if I do believe that it sounds fine when played a little slower...)
pianopera 1 year ago
@pianopera Correction: you do NOT convince me at all ;-)
pianopera 1 year ago
bach (chopin loved his music) comes out with this tempo
stoker10 1 year ago
*shakes head*
Thracozaag 1 year ago
In any case, there are more etudes than just this one, to be performed at comparable speeds. What about Opp. 25 nos. 11 and 12? To perform them at half their speed diminishes their character. So it is with 10 no. 1. And quite simply, halving the speed of 10-1 makes it so easy as to render it useless as an etude. Also, was Widor talking about this piece specifically? Besides, people back then tended to use exaggerated vocabularies. Maybe 'playing at half speed' just meant slower than some.
goobleglob 1 year ago
Also, it's not fair to post Cortot's less than perfect performance to make a point. Anyone who reads up on him knows that he wasn't known for practicing very much.
In any case, a tempo this slow makes the piece lose its lines and flow, and it's the performer's job to bring out details while retaining clarity. It's supposed to be a challenge, after all.
goobleglob 1 year ago
You have an interesting idea, but I'd like to say that we have Rosenthal's recording of the piece here. He was a student of Liszt, and as we all know, Liszt was one of Chopin's closest friends.
Surely a student of a close friend of Chopin's, a well-respected and intelligent performer himself would have respected Chopin's intentions? These associations make me doubt your assumptions. Also, from experience- light, shallow keyboards make for much easier fast playing.
Interesting rendition though.
goobleglob 1 year ago
@goobleglob
Thank you for the response. Do not consider the second generation "after" to perform in a historic jusified way. Just read and listen the remarks of Pugno (st. Mathias) and others. Widor had the opportunity to listen to Liszt playing at Erards castle in Paris late '70ties and was amazed of the effect he rendered, much more than other pianists of that time, playing almost two times slower... And like this I could continue for days. 75, 100, 125, 150 years... is a very long time...
WimWintersMusician 1 year ago
I believe it says CROTCHET=176, not minim.
001account 1 year ago
i can actually hear the notes and not a sonic tapestry but there should be more nuances in the pressing of the keys. it gets boring.
at this speed it sounds baroque
AristYdes 1 year ago
There is some magic at this tempo.
Well done.
A.
ASAngelo 1 year ago
It's very very improbable Chopin thank this etude in that speed. Compare the degree of dificulty of that one with the others etudes. The etude 1 gets a etude begginers, practically. It doesn´t match.
codonauta 1 year ago
Don't we all wish... No, this is just wishful thinking. There is nothing that suggests the tempo of this popular piece should be halved. Of course it is challenging to play, but not impossible. That's why its called an etude (and Chopin wrote much harder ones) . Also, it is marked allegro, and that fits with the original marking. Lastly, the 1800s is not ancient Egypt. There are versions recorded by musicians who are old enough to have had teachers who know the real deal.
hermease 1 year ago
agreed debussy84. very interesting stuff....i think the correct tempo is absolutely 176 and not "half" of that. For a piece of music, this etude works well at 170-176. If its played at half the speed like on this video, its sounds just like an exercise. The only people who can really do this etude justice at 170+ on youtube is John Chen, Pollini, and Kissin so far.
JHighland1 1 year ago
It sounds like Andras Schiff....very interesting though!
24link135 1 year ago
It is the best, most adequate interpretation of this Étude I've ever heard. Because Wim Winters plays as an adult pianist, not as a child pianist (fast as possible) like all the "famous" pianists of the past (and the present...). Congratulations on this perfect, faultless interpretation!
WolfgangWeller 1 year ago
4. Surely a lighter action (i.e., Chopin's piano) would make the stated tempo easier to play, and not harder?
5. Your performance - forgive me for saying so - does make the etude sound a bit like a Czerny study. To my mind the piece is driven not by the right-hand figuration, but rather by the chorale-like bass octaves in the left. Played this slow, the melody simply doesn't work.
magdluke 1 year ago
@magdluke Agreed... a lighter action would make this piece easier to play.
Sorry, but the metronome marking is correct (same as on the urtext editions). It does sound nice at this tempo, but its incorrect.
cfwpiano 1 year ago
People, this is not correct people, lol. If only this was the case. Even though we don't have chopin's recording, based on writtings from his pupils and that fact that he performed his etudes live, the metronome markings are correct. The urtext edition book i have of chopin's etudes explains ALL of Chopin's markings on his own handwritten original manuscripts in great detail for EACH etude, including the speeds indicated. Yes, its too fast for a modern heavy grand, but not for chopin's piano.
debussy84 1 year ago
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TheStraubeCode 1 year ago
ik heb ng nooit van martelato gehoord, hoe speel je dat dan?
psychopathtoine 1 year ago
Met je vingers!!
queenandi 1 year ago
@queenandi haha ja :p maar is dat dan gebonden of iets ertussen?
psychopathtoine 1 year ago
Very, veeeeeeeeery interesting, mineer!!!
If the metronome marking is thus - meaning, de facto the 4x16th-note groupings as such, then, this would indeed be the 'correct' tempo!
It opens the piece in all ends, so to speak!
You hear all the 'interesting' pivot notes in the harmonic change, &c., &c.
The only danger would be a mounting 'wall-paper' effect from the figurations - but this is a matter of 'musical' playing!
Bravo!
cembalaro 2 years ago 6
Sounds like you may be right.
NBurgmann 2 years ago
Absolutely right! I would like to see the definite END of the prestation (velocity?) oriented music performance in every instruments. Bravo Wim!!! Put more from your stuff, please!
Donjuliolibra 2 years ago
Yep, he's right.
TheStraubeCode 2 years ago