I donm't seem to have lesbian friend, at least not inb real life. I do have some mostly distant gay friends. I'm not opposed to gay marriage. I know what it feels like to have somebody else try to impose their views on your marriage.
@Rockioe You're right, you are on either one side or the other. But you are also wrong, because saying being gay is wrong IS bigotry. Because you know what actually is pure undefiled love? Homosexuality. So, it is NOT wrong.
@hearttopmodel05 heartopmodel, just because you say it's something doesn't make it true. This is how people reason though and to be honest, you drew no line of reasoning to connect that thought at all to why it's not bigotry yet this is how I see most people argue for homosexuality. "It's this (because I say it is) and so it's not wrong" isn't logical reasoning at all. It's saying you feel a certain way emotionally and therefore it must be true.
@Holmes245 Homosexuality involves loving someone who just happens to be of the same sex. And if it's love, than why is it "wrong"? Explain that to me?
@hearttopmodel05 First, I don't think that's a good reason because it proves too much. In other words, using that, I could apply that to other forms of "affection". Incest, for example or polygamy. I could reason that, incest involves loving someone who just happens to be your immediate family member. And if it's love then why is that wrong? You fill in the blank with any form of relationship you could come up with and justify it was right because it was based on love.
@Holmes245 No, I'm not talking about certain kinds of affections and lusts that can be argued as "love". I'm talking about real love. And also, neither are necessarily "wrong" just because we say they're wrong. Incest is frowned upon mostly because it runs the risk of producing babies with sever physical defects. Also, when it comes to polygamy, if six woman want to marry one man or vise versa, and they're all consenting adults, I really don't see anything wrong with that.
@Holmes245 The problem with concentual incest is, genetically deformed children can result. The other problem is, most of the time, incest isn't concentual. As for polygamy? Well, assuming no deceit is involved and no force is employed, the legal complexity of administering it is immense. U are right, some people think communal relationships are fine and as a society, we can't impose our values on them.
@hearttopmodel05 You could argue that homosexuality and incest aren't the same thing and I would agree to a point. They're not the same thing as heterosexuality and homosexuality aren't but it is an act that most in our society would consider immoral. However, someone advocating that could use the same reasoning. All I'm saying is that reason alone doesn't justify anything because it justifies allowing too much.
@Holmes245 That's true, but common sense should tell us that sexual criminals using the same debate the gay community does to justify our actions is ridiculous.
@hearttopmodel05 "Common sense" should tell us? I don't believe in the concept of common sense since people define it so differently today. Perhaps sixty years ago you'd be right but in our culture of "diversity", that's not. Regardless, how would it be ridiculous? This is where I believe you're assuming a certain common standard among society. How would that be ridiculous or different than your argument?
@Holmes245 Regardless of how differently people these day define 'common sense', there are still things that apply. Like "don't kill people" and "if you eat too much food, you'll get fat", etc. Something that would be included in that is that two consenting adults having sex, no matter what gender they are, isn't wrong. While someone forcing someone to have sex PERIOD is wrong. And yes, someone comparing the two is ridiculous.
@hearttopmodel05 I disagree. It's the very fact that we define things differently that is at the heart of the matter because of different worldviews. Diversity and "tolerance" (which itself is subjective) is preached by the masses but in practice, it doesn't really work. That's why, for a society to function at all, people would have to be of like mind and have a shared worldview in order to come to a common understanding of what is right and what is wrong.
@Holmes245 A common morality exists. Shared vaues includes the idea that its generally wrong to harm others. War is an exception to this sometimes. War is still evil and we still try to minimize the killing of the innocent. Areas of personal morality such as sex between concenting adults are best left to the individual and his/her god. Likewise opposing hindu marriage is wrong despite fact u believe hindus are hell bound.
Besides, "don't kill people" is too broad as there have been many cases in history where it was committed and people saw it as justified, one being the killing of Jews in Nazi prison camps during WWII for example. The second example is just a fact, not something moral. If it is then that would have to be based off of certain principles. So again, just stating that sex, whoever does it isn't wrong is you just stating it because you feel that it's not. Circular argumentation.
@Holmes245 Dude, whatever. Clearly you have nothing better to do, so I'm just going to end this with: there's nothing wrong with gay people P-E-R-I-O-D. End of discussion.
Anyway, this is really a much deeper discussion than a message board on YouTube is good for. I hate the format. If you want to discuss it further then send me a personal message. Otherwise, kudos to you for taking the time to discuss it with a cool head. Not a lot of people manage to do that on both sides of the issue.
@Holmes245 Most people believe in the rights of the individuasl to express him or herself. Most people in your country believe in innocence before proven guilty. The areas of disagreement are those where somebody else decides what God you worship, who you have sex with, and what you eat. The commoniality exist, you are trust to stupid to see it because ur religioon tells u american values are from God but they aren't.
@hearttopmodel05 ADHD does make me lazy about proof reading what I write. (My ADHD is still in the closet. In the context of the work place, people knowing you have it, may make them unwilling to hire you. Its scary.)
@truevoiceofsanity Actually, you're wrong. "My" religion would technically be eastern in origin, not American.
I never said that commonality didn't exist. Of course there is commonality. I just don't believe that energy and matter always existed or popped into existence from nothing which is what you have to believe if you're an atheist. Both are unscientific in their nature.
@Holmes245 I'm an atheist and I don't necessarily believe energy and matter just popped into existence. That's what the point of being an atheist is to me, I don't know how the world was created, but I do know a big magical man in the sky certainly didn't make it. That's like fairytale level ridiculous:P
@hearttopmodel05 That's a problem for you then. Aside from the fact that most Christians don't believe that God is a 'big magical man in the sky" as well, you have a dilemma to solve before you tell others what they should believe. You're telling me to change my beliefs on something and to share an atheistic worldview and yet cannot account for the existence of energy and matter by natural means. You apparently didn't realize it but you've made an admission most professional atheists never make.
@Holmes245 I never told you to change your beliefs, you can keep them for all I care. I'm just saying I think they're stupid. And I have no dilemma to solve, I'm fine with not having all the answers.
@hearttopmodel05 No, you never did verbally. It never does happen that way. However, when you tell someone their beliefs are 'stupid', you're essentially saying that what a person believes about something, whatever that thing is, needs and should be changed. In other words, that there is something else that I should believe that is correct, namely in this case, that homosexuality is okay and just as valid as heterosexuality. That's what you would have others accept, of course.
@hearttopmodel05 You know something? I thought when you responded that it was truevoiceofsanity so I apologize. You're correct hearttopmodel, it wasn't you that said this, it was him. When you said that you never told me to change my beliefs, technically, you're right but whenever you tell someone you 'disagree' with their beliefs, you're still basically telling them what they believe is either wrong or incorrect (aka doesn't correspond to reality). This isn't wrong in and of itself though.
@hearttopmodel05 Actually, you do have a dilemma to solve - how energy and matter, the most basic elements to existence, could have come into existence in the first place. Atheists will throw out theories on how we got here but will stop at this point. It may not be a dilemma for you but that's only because you choose to ignore it. However, that is precisely why I reject atheism is because I know that matter and energy can't just exist from nothing. There can be no natural cause for existence.
@Holmes245 Whether or not it could have come from nothing is irrelevant because that's not what I believe. I don't believe that or that a divine being created it either, because trying to just "figure out" how the universe came to be isn't simply a dilemma to solve. It's something I believe is impossible to truly know for sure, and whoever claims to know I can guarantee is just using their best guess. Saying god created the universe is called "faith" for a reason.
@Holmes245 As for the first cause argument, one alternative I see, is that, in some form or other, matter/energy always existed. If this alternative is true, we don't yet understand how entropy reverses. That doesn't mean entropy doesn't ever reverse, it just means we don't know how it can be reversed. For a few years, gravity was a mechanism being explored but its since been clear that the rate of expansion is increasing.
@truevoiceofsanity Setting entropy aside, why would energy exist at all? You're essentiall proposing it was uncaused which isn't scientific. There's no reason, in a natural universe, for energy to be uncaused. The only reason you draw such a possibility is because you have to but this is where atheists break their own rules and take it on 'faith' because there's no way you could demonstrate that and it hasn't been observed. There's no reason why energy would just exist with no origin.
@Holmes245 Nobody is saying "change your beliefs". What people are saying is, don't impose your religious beliefs on other's personal lives. You believe Hindus are going to hell and living in sin. You don't have the right to forbid Hindu's from being married. Likewise you are entitled to think that gay's are living in sin but not entitled to control their legal marriage. It should be noted that legalizing gay marriage doesn't mean individual churches have to perform said marriages
@Holmes245 We were not discussing the first cause but American values in the context of an effective American secular democracy that supports people's right to freedom of conscience/religion. If you want to discuss the arguments for/against God that is another discussion. Its very scary when somebody with ADHD tells you to focus on the subject at hand.
@truevoiceofsanity The only reason I brought up the 'first cause' argument was that I was demonstrating that, after chiding my religious belief, yours was a religious belief as well. Atheists see themselves outside the realm of religion but that's not true. "Mother Nature" anyone? "Nature creates"? These terms are used all the time and are simply placeholders for the word 'God'. Atheists talk about nature as if it were God.
lol so true, it sounds ridiculous "i have gay friends, but i'm just actively campaigning to make sure they are banned from getting married y'know, we can still be friends !!!!!" As. Fucking. If.
I donm't seem to have lesbian friend, at least not inb real life. I do have some mostly distant gay friends. I'm not opposed to gay marriage. I know what it feels like to have somebody else try to impose their views on your marriage.
truevoiceofsanity 2 months ago
I agree with you there. You are either on one side or the other.
However, being truthful to another human being that homosexuality is wrong is not bigotry. It is pure undefiled love.
Rockioe 7 months ago
@Rockioe You're right, you are on either one side or the other. But you are also wrong, because saying being gay is wrong IS bigotry. Because you know what actually is pure undefiled love? Homosexuality. So, it is NOT wrong.
hearttopmodel05 7 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 heartopmodel, just because you say it's something doesn't make it true. This is how people reason though and to be honest, you drew no line of reasoning to connect that thought at all to why it's not bigotry yet this is how I see most people argue for homosexuality. "It's this (because I say it is) and so it's not wrong" isn't logical reasoning at all. It's saying you feel a certain way emotionally and therefore it must be true.
Holmes245 4 months ago
@Holmes245 Homosexuality involves loving someone who just happens to be of the same sex. And if it's love, than why is it "wrong"? Explain that to me?
hearttopmodel05 4 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 First, I don't think that's a good reason because it proves too much. In other words, using that, I could apply that to other forms of "affection". Incest, for example or polygamy. I could reason that, incest involves loving someone who just happens to be your immediate family member. And if it's love then why is that wrong? You fill in the blank with any form of relationship you could come up with and justify it was right because it was based on love.
Holmes245 4 months ago
@Holmes245 No, I'm not talking about certain kinds of affections and lusts that can be argued as "love". I'm talking about real love. And also, neither are necessarily "wrong" just because we say they're wrong. Incest is frowned upon mostly because it runs the risk of producing babies with sever physical defects. Also, when it comes to polygamy, if six woman want to marry one man or vise versa, and they're all consenting adults, I really don't see anything wrong with that.
hearttopmodel05 4 months ago
@Holmes245 The problem with concentual incest is, genetically deformed children can result. The other problem is, most of the time, incest isn't concentual. As for polygamy? Well, assuming no deceit is involved and no force is employed, the legal complexity of administering it is immense. U are right, some people think communal relationships are fine and as a society, we can't impose our values on them.
truevoiceofsanity 2 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 You could argue that homosexuality and incest aren't the same thing and I would agree to a point. They're not the same thing as heterosexuality and homosexuality aren't but it is an act that most in our society would consider immoral. However, someone advocating that could use the same reasoning. All I'm saying is that reason alone doesn't justify anything because it justifies allowing too much.
Holmes245 4 months ago
@Holmes245 That's true, but common sense should tell us that sexual criminals using the same debate the gay community does to justify our actions is ridiculous.
hearttopmodel05 4 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 "Common sense" should tell us? I don't believe in the concept of common sense since people define it so differently today. Perhaps sixty years ago you'd be right but in our culture of "diversity", that's not. Regardless, how would it be ridiculous? This is where I believe you're assuming a certain common standard among society. How would that be ridiculous or different than your argument?
Holmes245 4 months ago
@Holmes245 Regardless of how differently people these day define 'common sense', there are still things that apply. Like "don't kill people" and "if you eat too much food, you'll get fat", etc. Something that would be included in that is that two consenting adults having sex, no matter what gender they are, isn't wrong. While someone forcing someone to have sex PERIOD is wrong. And yes, someone comparing the two is ridiculous.
hearttopmodel05 4 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 I disagree. It's the very fact that we define things differently that is at the heart of the matter because of different worldviews. Diversity and "tolerance" (which itself is subjective) is preached by the masses but in practice, it doesn't really work. That's why, for a society to function at all, people would have to be of like mind and have a shared worldview in order to come to a common understanding of what is right and what is wrong.
Holmes245 4 months ago
@Holmes245 A common morality exists. Shared vaues includes the idea that its generally wrong to harm others. War is an exception to this sometimes. War is still evil and we still try to minimize the killing of the innocent. Areas of personal morality such as sex between concenting adults are best left to the individual and his/her god. Likewise opposing hindu marriage is wrong despite fact u believe hindus are hell bound.
truevoiceofsanity 2 months ago
Besides, "don't kill people" is too broad as there have been many cases in history where it was committed and people saw it as justified, one being the killing of Jews in Nazi prison camps during WWII for example. The second example is just a fact, not something moral. If it is then that would have to be based off of certain principles. So again, just stating that sex, whoever does it isn't wrong is you just stating it because you feel that it's not. Circular argumentation.
Holmes245 4 months ago
@Holmes245 Dude, whatever. Clearly you have nothing better to do, so I'm just going to end this with: there's nothing wrong with gay people P-E-R-I-O-D. End of discussion.
hearttopmodel05 4 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 Circular reasoning, that is.
Anyway, this is really a much deeper discussion than a message board on YouTube is good for. I hate the format. If you want to discuss it further then send me a personal message. Otherwise, kudos to you for taking the time to discuss it with a cool head. Not a lot of people manage to do that on both sides of the issue.
Holmes245 4 months ago
@Holmes245 NP, talk to you later~
hearttopmodel05 4 months ago
@Holmes245 Most people believe in the rights of the individuasl to express him or herself. Most people in your country believe in innocence before proven guilty. The areas of disagreement are those where somebody else decides what God you worship, who you have sex with, and what you eat. The commoniality exist, you are trust to stupid to see it because ur religioon tells u american values are from God but they aren't.
truevoiceofsanity 2 months ago
@truevoiceofsanity I agree, and I think you meant "you I trust are too stupid". You put "you are trust to stupid".
hearttopmodel05 2 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 ADHD does make me lazy about proof reading what I write. (My ADHD is still in the closet. In the context of the work place, people knowing you have it, may make them unwilling to hire you. Its scary.)
truevoiceofsanity 2 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 I probably meant to write "you are just too stupid" lol. I guess my ADHD makes me just too stupid to properly close an argument. ;).
truevoiceofsanity 2 months ago
@truevoiceofsanity Actually, you're wrong. "My" religion would technically be eastern in origin, not American.
I never said that commonality didn't exist. Of course there is commonality. I just don't believe that energy and matter always existed or popped into existence from nothing which is what you have to believe if you're an atheist. Both are unscientific in their nature.
Holmes245 2 months ago
@Holmes245 I'm an atheist and I don't necessarily believe energy and matter just popped into existence. That's what the point of being an atheist is to me, I don't know how the world was created, but I do know a big magical man in the sky certainly didn't make it. That's like fairytale level ridiculous:P
hearttopmodel05 2 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 That's a problem for you then. Aside from the fact that most Christians don't believe that God is a 'big magical man in the sky" as well, you have a dilemma to solve before you tell others what they should believe. You're telling me to change my beliefs on something and to share an atheistic worldview and yet cannot account for the existence of energy and matter by natural means. You apparently didn't realize it but you've made an admission most professional atheists never make.
Holmes245 2 months ago
@Holmes245 I never told you to change your beliefs, you can keep them for all I care. I'm just saying I think they're stupid. And I have no dilemma to solve, I'm fine with not having all the answers.
hearttopmodel05 2 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 No, you never did verbally. It never does happen that way. However, when you tell someone their beliefs are 'stupid', you're essentially saying that what a person believes about something, whatever that thing is, needs and should be changed. In other words, that there is something else that I should believe that is correct, namely in this case, that homosexuality is okay and just as valid as heterosexuality. That's what you would have others accept, of course.
Holmes245 2 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 You know something? I thought when you responded that it was truevoiceofsanity so I apologize. You're correct hearttopmodel, it wasn't you that said this, it was him. When you said that you never told me to change my beliefs, technically, you're right but whenever you tell someone you 'disagree' with their beliefs, you're still basically telling them what they believe is either wrong or incorrect (aka doesn't correspond to reality). This isn't wrong in and of itself though.
Holmes245 2 months ago
@hearttopmodel05 Actually, you do have a dilemma to solve - how energy and matter, the most basic elements to existence, could have come into existence in the first place. Atheists will throw out theories on how we got here but will stop at this point. It may not be a dilemma for you but that's only because you choose to ignore it. However, that is precisely why I reject atheism is because I know that matter and energy can't just exist from nothing. There can be no natural cause for existence.
Holmes245 2 months ago
@Holmes245 Whether or not it could have come from nothing is irrelevant because that's not what I believe. I don't believe that or that a divine being created it either, because trying to just "figure out" how the universe came to be isn't simply a dilemma to solve. It's something I believe is impossible to truly know for sure, and whoever claims to know I can guarantee is just using their best guess. Saying god created the universe is called "faith" for a reason.
hearttopmodel05 2 months ago
@Holmes245 As for the first cause argument, one alternative I see, is that, in some form or other, matter/energy always existed. If this alternative is true, we don't yet understand how entropy reverses. That doesn't mean entropy doesn't ever reverse, it just means we don't know how it can be reversed. For a few years, gravity was a mechanism being explored but its since been clear that the rate of expansion is increasing.
truevoiceofsanity 2 months ago
@truevoiceofsanity Setting entropy aside, why would energy exist at all? You're essentiall proposing it was uncaused which isn't scientific. There's no reason, in a natural universe, for energy to be uncaused. The only reason you draw such a possibility is because you have to but this is where atheists break their own rules and take it on 'faith' because there's no way you could demonstrate that and it hasn't been observed. There's no reason why energy would just exist with no origin.
Holmes245 2 months ago
@Holmes245 Nobody is saying "change your beliefs". What people are saying is, don't impose your religious beliefs on other's personal lives. You believe Hindus are going to hell and living in sin. You don't have the right to forbid Hindu's from being married. Likewise you are entitled to think that gay's are living in sin but not entitled to control their legal marriage. It should be noted that legalizing gay marriage doesn't mean individual churches have to perform said marriages
truevoiceofsanity 2 months ago
@Holmes245 We were not discussing the first cause but American values in the context of an effective American secular democracy that supports people's right to freedom of conscience/religion. If you want to discuss the arguments for/against God that is another discussion. Its very scary when somebody with ADHD tells you to focus on the subject at hand.
truevoiceofsanity 2 months ago
@truevoiceofsanity Agreed. The whole point of this video is I hate it when people use minority friends as a free pass to bigotry:P
hearttopmodel05 2 months ago
@truevoiceofsanity The only reason I brought up the 'first cause' argument was that I was demonstrating that, after chiding my religious belief, yours was a religious belief as well. Atheists see themselves outside the realm of religion but that's not true. "Mother Nature" anyone? "Nature creates"? These terms are used all the time and are simply placeholders for the word 'God'. Atheists talk about nature as if it were God.
Holmes245 2 months ago
lol so true, it sounds ridiculous "i have gay friends, but i'm just actively campaigning to make sure they are banned from getting married y'know, we can still be friends !!!!!" As. Fucking. If.
yuzk2 10 months ago
@yuzk2 Riiight?? lol
hearttopmodel05 10 months ago