@ TomFynn. Typical atheist remark. Check out Dr. William Lane Craig's videos as he repeatedly kicks Harris's ass. It is fun to watch. Oh by the way, Dawkins ( the king of the atheists gave a startling revelation...... He now believes in God ! Take that.
@jpmortician WLC? The poster boy for the god of the gaps argument? Thanks, but no. If I want to know about the entropy of the universe during the Planck-Epoch, or the symmetry breaks leading to the know interactions, I'll stick with people who know what they are talking about. Krauss, Linde, Susskind, Witten.
PS: Dawkins believes in God...Now you *are* lying for Jesus.
@jpmortician You mean the debate in Oxford between Lennox and Dawkins of which Dawkins said "I contrasted his theistic beliefs in miracles with deistic beliefs, for which I said that a serious case could be made, although not a case that I would accept myself." (richarddawkins . net / audio / 3911-richard-dawkins-and-john-lennox-at-the-oxford-university-museum)? Stop with the quote mining by other people and start listening to what has been said.
@jpmortician Hmm, the word of a trained neuroscientist from the 21st century over the word of semi-illiterate superstitious goat-herders from the iron age? No contest, really.
And he is still right. These people *knew* next to nothing. Even today people still speak of miracles when the cancer does not what is expected of it. What would the goat-herders say? Exactly.
Being ignorant is not the same as dumb. If any of us had lived back then we would have been just as ignorant. That we live in and benefit from the base of knowledge that has accumulated over the centuries is simply happenstance.
If not believing in desert djins and other supernatural events/characters makes me unintelligent, unqualified and somewhat and "close minded", so be it. I'd rather stick to the an objective reality full of uncertainties instead of an imaginary one basking in arrogant certainty of unprovable, unfalsifiable claims.
You're still not getting it. You can claim all you want the Qur'an contains modern scientific knowledge, and that won't make it true. I couldn't care less if you find it uninteresting. Heck, you even dared saying the worldview of these 3 guys Harris spoke about wasn't narrow. For all the knowledge you may have, you certainly don't seem to apply it very consistently.
Unless you can provide consistent, objective, reliable evidence to support what you claim, i have no reason to believe you.
You come across as an intelligent person. So l will try again
1: I am not interested in proving you wrong or you proving me wrong; But I am interested in defending my beliefs, informing others of it, for better understanding & human betterment. The rest is up to them. YouTube is NOT best medium for fruitful lengthy & deep discussions
2: Please do not reference Sam Harris, I have no respect for him, as he is more fanatical than the fundamentals he is attacking
@arraba99 How exactly is Harris "fanatical"? Just because he points out blatant flaws in the religious mindset that you happen to cherish doesn't mean he isn't right about many things. Truth can be disheartening by times, but it's important to acknowledge one's mistakes and take steps to fix them.
About "science" in the qur'an, it's expectable to see some of this going on, considering the early islamic culture embraced the spirit of investigation and research.
@arraba99 This doesn't mean, however, that the quir'an reflects divine revelations of any sort. The role of a deity is merely inspirational, but as i've already exposed, inspiration can come from many sources, many of them tangible (remeber the view of a distant nebula example), so belief in unproven fantasies is not needed to develop exactly the same results, and modern science brings up face to face with this fact.
3: Open mind does not mean you/I have to believe in anything that comes along, including Quran. But it means making reasonable effort to research, understand, dialogue with knowledge & draw your own conclusion
4: Quran is not a scientific book per se; but it has about 1000 verses dealing with science matters, some repeated. It is reason driven & you have to study some of it, first hand; I can not cite it all here & discuss it in-depth without any common ground
5: I agree claims are not facts, unless & untill proven. That is done through researched & reasoning with an open mind.
6: I have been reading Talmud & Bible. I used to think they are like the Quran. They can NOT be more different. Torah & Bible are stories & many passages are clearly man made with low morality that contradicts the very nature of a holly book. Honesty, I would probably never have reverted to belief if that is the only option I had.
@arraba99 It is important to keep an open mind, and i will do so as long as people bring evidence to support their claims, specially supernatural ones. YT is being dumb, so i'll continue later.
@arraba99 Back to this, how can you say with a straight face there's no compulsion in religion when apostacy itself is punished with death if we follow the rigurous scriptural terms within your holy book? Curiously, christians and jews will say exactly the same thing about your particular holy book. I hope you can understand this is nothing more than a cultural predisposition towards an evident confirmation bias, present within every religious mindset.
@arraba99 Keeping that in mind, it doesn't matter if your book asks you toreason and reflect, when on the other side it shamelessly threatens it's adepts with horrible tortures if they somehow happen to arrive at a "wrong" conclusion after doing precisely what their holy book tells them. This, my friend, is called a double standard. Reason and inquiry can not prosper when they are subject to this kind of irrational imaginary threats, but sadly tends to have devastating effect on weaker minds.
Quran, (or I) never claimed that Allah is not, as you put it the “Star”; Quran is the word of all mighty all forgiving all merciful creator, as stipulated in every Surah, is above his creation
Which he gives guidance to; those that follow, are rewarded & who do not are punished
You expect him to say: I created you, gave you all these blessing & I will reward you if you follow my guidance, Satan's or your whims in transgression
@arraba99 I referred to him as the star, because it focuses on him and his relation with humans. It's expectable to find support for him in his own book, just like other holy books represent their respective deities as their "stars". I do want to go back to this punishment and rewards thing. You said there's no compulsion in this religion, when it;s pretty evident by the way this divine "justice" is managed.
@arraba99 I mean, this god tells you to explore and study his creation, yet he will punish you if you don't arrive to the conclusions he expects from you? That's pretty far from what i'd call merciful and all forgiving, regardless of how you want to rationalize it to free him from guilt of this blatant flaw in his alleged "perfect" judging system. This threats are precisely the compulsory element to the story. If this guy was actually what you claim him to be, there would be no need for threats.
Quran is very clear on belief being personal & reasoned. It constantly asks the reader to reason & reflect
Quran: 17:36 “And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge…”
109:3-5: “…And I will not worship that which you have [ever] worshipped; and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship; Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine”
2:256 “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error…”
@arraba9 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. Quran 2:256
@abc18abc19 Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment, Quran 2/257
@abc18abc19 There's no compulsion in religion. It's just that if you believe in the wrong religion, Allah will torture you after you die by burning you forever in hell.
@arraba99 Since we're playing the taking out of context quotes game, let me complete that one for you: "There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower."
What you did there was not only dishonest, but it clearly exposes the confirmation bias im speaking about. Allah's book is OBVIOUSLY gonna have allah as the star.
1) Space does not allow to cite the full verses unless crucial to point
2) The continuation of the verse add to my case rather than take away from it. It just states that believing in the creator (Allah) is the true unbreakable path
Concept of reward/punishment do not cancel free choice
Our manmade laws/rules on family, norms, schools & state there is reward/punishment for following/ breaking rules
@arraba99 About this claim about your god being the "true" unbreakable path, how exactly do you know this? There are plenty of holy books out there with people and gods making exactly the same claims, yet somehow you manage to establish this is the right one?
Btw, your analogy between divine and man-made laws is flawed, because we can actually see and interact with people who made these laws, yet we don't see this god of yours walking around managing justice himself.
@arraba99 Man-made laws and our justice system are a product of our social nature. They're made to ensure, in their own flawed way, the well-being of most of us, at least in modern societies. Sadly, we can't really say the same about some backward systems based on primitive superstition, where the mere act of not believing the mainstream religion means you deserve to die. You may be familiar with some of these totalitarian systems, and how the Qur'an is used to enforce them.
@arraba99 But i wonder what would happen if you happen to arrive to a different conclusion, and pick the wrong god, or in my case, none of them at all. What exactly happens to people if they stride away from the path of islam and find different paths, according to your religion?
Our human civilization collectively and at the individual is based on accountability; and when it breaks down weather at the state, family, corporate, cultural or individual level, major problems follows. I hope that is evident to you
Why would you expect that to be different at the highest level of our being? It is should be even more crucial
Had G-d not sent messengers with guidance, then it would not be fair to judge us. This is one of Quran’s major themes.
@arraba99 But in general terms, modern societies are indeed based on accountability. You commit a crime, the law will hit you and put you in jail to pay for your transgressions. We came up with these things not because a magical imaginary being crafted our moral system, but because as social beings, we perceive the evident benefits of getting along relatively well.
Sadly for your case, this doesn't apply to the rest of the universe. This concept of divine accountability is wishful thinking.
@arraba99 We are familiar with accountability as sentient beings, but once we cease to exist, anything relevant to the physical entity we now know as "I" or "ME" fades into oblivion, since we have no evidence for minds existing without brains. The issue here, is we somehow want to transcend our unavoidable fate. This is why mankind comes up with the kind of myths you follow. It's been happening for millenia now, yet no evidence for them has ever been presented.
@arraba99 I've read some passages, plus what muslims sometimes quote as "evidence" to support their claims. I haven't read it all, though.
About this alleged forgiveness, you're still trying to rationalize this evident bribe. Why should i give away my intellect in deference to this imaginary character that hasn't even been proven to exist? Even if he had created me, that doesn't give him the right to judge me with eternal torment if i happen to come to a "wrong" conclusion under by standards.
Do few passages of a book (Quran) qualify for passing judgement on it? Can you do so with Einstein General Relativity or any other book?
As I said, without knowledge of the topic there is no sufficient common ground to have an intelligent & hence fruitful discussion; only a pointless polemic exchange, better suited for deficient intellect, which you should be above
Almost every word/verse in the Quran requires reflection/reasoning for those with deep intellect.
@arraba99 The main problem with your Qur'an is, when you see the supernatural claims made in it, and then check the evidence available for them, you begin to distrust it. It would be like reading the biblical genesis and pretending something initially crafted to be taken literally such as the talking snake and actually buying into it simply because the book has the "word of god" slogan. When you read a work of fiction, you can easily identify it as such. Indoctrination tries to negate this.
@arraba99 This is why you don't really need to have read every single word in these holy books to safely conclude they are work of fiction, and poor attempts by primitive men to understand a world that was beyond their grasp. Acknowledging them as our "first attempts" at knowledge is credit enough to them, but from there to jump to conclusions such as them containing modern scientific knowledge is simply silly.
@arraba99 This is also why your analogy with reading Einsteins General Relativity doesn't work. As a scientist, Einstein supported a system entirely based on objective, observable evidence, something any of the holy books around lack.
About your god being able to do whatever he wants, i'm sorry to disappoint you, but he doesn't. The fact you believe he does conducts me to distrust your personal morality, with all due respect. Basically, might makes right. Pretty immoral system.
@arraba99 Regardless if he created me or not (something you HAVE to substantiate in order to make a positive claim), a creator has no right to do whatever he wants. Risking sounding cheesy, and even exposing to laughter, i will quote one of the best comic book lessons ever: With great power comes great responsibility (Spiderman's uncle Ben, in case you don;t know it). This also applies to an almighty creator, if he exists. Heck, a comic book writer was able to figure out that one!
Yes, your creator, & creator of all blessing you enjoy, has the right to do what he pleases; chuck ego! You grant relatively similar (but lesser) rights to much lesser entities: state, family, parents… etc. They did not create you!
Here on earth, if you do not go by the rules (education, work hard, obey law…) you will have a miserable life.
Better analogy is father punishing son for breaking rules, although some do it for not loving (appreciating) them back.
@arraba99 Now, even if your god was punishing a transgression, do you really believe he's able to torture you forever for a crime committed in a finite life? Really??? Because if you do, it only validates my distrust towards your moral system. To be honest, i don'y think there's any case in which an infinite punishment is deserved for a finite life's crime. I'm very sorry your religion has polluted your mind so much to actually believe this is actually moral and loving. Disgusting....
@arraba99 This would be like a father punishing his kid for not loving him back, but way worse, since the alleged punishment extends for eternity. The main problem is that your god supposedly made the rules, created everything, yet has the nerve to blame US (his IMPERFECT creations) for something he should have done properly in the first place. OF course, we happen to have somehow transgressed his holy command by the act of being born, so we gotta make up for it? That's insane, if you ask me.
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets (anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers)
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets (anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers)
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets-anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets-anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers
Your creator asks that you believe in him & worship him alone & nothing else; worship here is not just few prayers (as Muslims do) but in your way life & your pursuit.
G-d asks not to be greedy – His messenger Mohammad says “Work for this life as if you will live forever, and work for the thereafter as if you will die tomorrow” i.e. BALANCE.
“ He who sleeps on a full stomach while his neighbour is hungry does not actually believe in me” The Noble Prophet (PBUH)
The all forgiving and all Merciful are his ability & willingness to forgive your sins if & when you repent to him, no intermediaries. And he gives you that opportunity till before your souls depart your body.
No one else gives you this leeway. If you break the law of the state you are punished, there is no room for repentance unless it is minor issue.
@arraba99 This being could only be described as a cruel bully. One that requires compulsory worshiping by lesser creatures in order to satisfy his own perverted standards. In case you haven't noticed, your religion IS compulsory. Worship this god being, or get screwed up for all eternity. Fair deal, right? The "option" you speak of is no free option. It's like saying you commit suicide when you decide not to give a thug your money when having his gun pointed at your head. It's absurd.
@arraba99 I don't care about religions teaching goodness. In exchange for polluting people's minds with unfalsifiable claims and lies, i don't think the "good" they do is worth the sacrtifice of our own humanity in deference to unproven primitive imaginations. Besides, i'd really like you to mention one single good action that only a religious person would be able to perform specifically based on their belief. And i'm not talking about earning paradise, or anything else included in their dogma.
@arraba99 I'm talkign abour REAL, tangible actions. Something that only a religious person can do, that a secular one wouldn't be able to.
About humbleness, a personal creator that made the world for you is your idea of humbleness? I mean, in a vast universe beyond our craziest dreams, do you honestly believe an almighty creator would have done all this with you in mind? Do you even get to see the irony in all this? You preach humbleness, while performing arrogance. Bad move there, pal.
@arraba99 All the other characteristics you described are perfectly achievable without the need of an imaginary friend. We may not be perfect, but heck, i do know well enough i strive for goodness, and i don't need some imaginary skydaddy pulling my strings in order to do so. That is, of course, unless you decide he does it anyway without me noticing, which would be (yet another) unfalsifiable claim you'd need to substantiate with evidence, so let's not even go there for now.
As your creator he would be within his right to inflect punishment on you immediately once you break his laws. So yes I would call that the utmost in mercy & forgiveness.
How else would you have liked that to be handled? No punishment at all? All the same? Please answer specifically, not in generalities.
You are really stretching the meaning of the word compulsion. Compulsion is when you have no choice and force here & now.
Otherwise, by your definition our whole life within the state, family, corporation is based on compulsion. Is it? I.e. No free choice.
If you read the Quran you will find punishment used mostly in passive terms 49 times;
Reward is used 125 times and in it many forms about 800+ times. I call that the creator is more focused on rewards rather than punishment. As human most of us are sufficiently moved by reward, but some only by punishment & others by both.
@arraba99 And it doesn't really matter the qur'an phrases it in a positive way. This belief system exalts gullibility (aka faith) as the highest of virtues, while questioning it's foundation is regarded as a severe transgression. What kind of "freedom" can prosper under these backward terms? What kind of rational freedom can exist when it's deliberately and systematically suppressed by compulsive belief and worshiping? "Rewards" are offered to those gullible, or weak enough to buy into it.
Lust for worldly power creates greed & enslaves men to pursuit of it at any cost: Greedy corporations, wars, destruction of environments, resulting killing & poverty…etc. Some people (1%) have money to burn, some are struggling & others dying of hunger;
Long list, limited space.
Your perceived freedom of disbelieving in G-d & in doing what please, my friend, is an illusion; It is enslavement to your whims and endless pursuit of empty materialism. Think about it!
Quran addresses came to all address us accordingly with reward and punishment.
Besides, I for one, if was not forewarned of possible punishment for my transgression, if they occur, I would argue the unfairness of the punishment.
Calling forewarning as threats is pushing the meaning of the word. Is the speed limit infraction its possible punishment a threat or a warning for those who break it. I hope we can focus more on substance and less on Symantec’s.
Yes, each religion claim to be right, so which one is. The answer varies from one to another. If one believes that Judaism, Christianity & Islam are religions, then obviously the later supersedes the former. If one does not believe in all of them being religions and/or believe there are other religions (Buddhism, Hinduism). Then one would explore all & see which one he/she believes to true.
@arraba99 Of course every religion claims to be right. However, when you see so many contesting doctrines, and take a step back, you realize not all of them can be right, but all of them could be wrong. Since NONE of them have provided sufficient evidence to support their respective supernatural claims, i'd rather not believe in any of them, willing to be convinced if such evidence is produced. It will have to be damn good evidence, however. Ancient scribblings won't do the trick for me.
Latest outfits, latest plastic surgeries now even to beatify their vaginas & endless pursuit of unhappiness - USA: 50% of married men & 33% of Married women cheat on their spouse, you can guess the consequences. Note: 70% of converts to Islam are females!
Check suicide rate in Hollywood? How happy the rich & famous are? Often empty life’s as materials & fame alone, do not achieve happiness.
Note: God in English does not translate to Allah (in Arabic), so I use G-d.
Some wanted to stay within the Abrahamic faiths so only explored them & others explored Buddhism & Hinduism also. But the vast majority of converts are to Islam. They almost always cite its simplicity (oneness of G-d), structure, your direct one on relation with G-d, its clarity - must read the Quran for that & its reasoned common sense & practical approach.
But each convert (Check YouTube) has his/her own reason.
@arraba99 And it doesn't really matter if a majority of the people end up converting to islam. That's called an ad populum fallacy, commonly used by believers of the mainstream religions, to somehow claim that majortary belief makes them true. However, we can have a long list of things the "majority" believed to be true back in the day: flat earth, geocentrism, alchemy, magic, witches. Plenty of these things have been discarded, precisely because evidence to the contrary was provided.
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets (anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers)
@arraba99 With religions it's a bit tougher, though, because they are founded upon unfalsifiable ideas, so they will most likely remain in the collective subconcient as hearthy feelings produced by wishful thinking and our innate human arrogance and egocentrism.
About souls, you'd have to define and demonstrate this thing is actually real. We're still stuck at demonstrating god, though, so i'm not holding my breath for that one.
Out of curiosity (and off topic..), why can't you spell god?
I have prepared several comments in response, each 500 Chars. A through I. But now it is limiting my comments to 200 Chars. I will have to post rest later.
Muslims regressed when they left ideals & adopted backward un-Islamic practices & some ills of the West but not its fast disappearing goodness. Till recently, focus has been more on Islamic outward appearance & form: prayers, dress, beards, Hijab …etc instead of inward faith, substance & one’s duty towards others (Muslims & non-Muslims). There is recent movement towards substance of Islam, but it will take few generations to make a difference.
@arraba99 Granted, the west was sinking in a pretty crazy ideological abyss with christianity ahead of it. How does that make your religion more true than theirs? At best, you can claim it was better, but more true, or even true at all? To be honest, i don't really care what muslims decide to fashion physically, but i do believe their beliefs are just as flawed as any other religion that dares insult the human intellect by demanding unconditional faith.
What logic is: If all religion claim to be right then non is?
With such logic nothing would be right; everything has its anti-thesis. Imagine applying this logic in court! One judges by first carefully considering all sides.
How would any religion provide sufficient evidence of G-d without studying it –not just few passages.
I agree majority converts to Islam does not mean you should believe in it; But it provides sufficient reason to seriously investigate it.
@arraba99 About logic, let's see the possible scenarios:
1. All of them can't be true.
2. One of them can be true.
3. None of them is true.
Seeing your posts, i suppose you'd go by option 2. However, without sufficient tangible and objective evidence, i'm afraid the only logical option left is 3. Again, i don't say your god isn't real (although i do believe that's the case), but that you folks haven't managed to provide sufficient evidence to support this particular claim.
@arraba99 Attached to this unproven claim, you can count all the supernatural actions he supposedly performs in the physical world (miracles, creating the whole place, etc.). Objective evidence that can be shown to anyone, at anytime is absolutely required, and all religions have failed at finding it so far. PErhaps eventually they'll find it, but untill now, i'll reserve belief till something worthy pops up. When was the last time you saw a peer reviewed paper on the existence of your god?
@arraba99 The fact a vast majority of recognized scientists reject the idea of an intelligent creator should at least be a kick in the ass for this god to step up his game when providing such evidence. It's not even an ad populum fallacy, because these people actually dedicate their lifes to dilligently investigate and research the natural world, and so far nothing points out towards an intelligent creator, regardless of how much creationists want to allege such evidence is "all around us".
@arraba99 1. Insulting language? Not sure how an exclamation is "insulting" but whatever.
2 I already exposed why it's not necessary to read all the qur'an to conclude it's a work of fiction crafted by primitive men attempting to understand the world around them.
3. It's not me who's ratinonalizing stuff here. In fact, it is YOU who's trying to rationalize a crazy and twisted moral system, and can't acknowledge the evident flaws within it as a clear sign of arrogance. Not my fault.
Best I heard, a long time Atheist (born catholic) with full intent to finding truth, “if you are there (meaning G-d) guide me to your path & he sincerely explored most known religions & last one was Islam which he converted to.
Muslims are not expected to convert, only to rely message of Islam, by deeds more than words, but we do such a poor job of both. Given the state of Muslims it is truly miraculous that we have such high conversions.
At any case, you will often hear Muslims say explore other religions & you will find your truth.
I can tell you, some converts are grateful that they converted before seeing how poorly many Muslims apply Islam & mutilate it with backward local cultural traditions. I learned long time ago to separate religion/ideology from its adherence, which is hard.
As for Human, there is also the soul in addition to brain/mind & heart, but that is another lengthy topic.
Man started as believer in the Creator & religion, starting with Adam (PBUH) & proceeding to Noah, Abraham, Idris, Moses, Jesus and ending with Mohammad (PBUT all)
After each messenger, man gradually corrupted religion thoughts & practices thus paganism. Then another massager is sent to re-guide man again to the truth.
So, NOT all Pagans customs & practices were evil/bad; hence righteous ones were continued & built upon.
You said “…as there were no prophets and no miracles”
How convenient for Atheists!
You accept human history; before, after & during prophets period, but reject only that which relates to the Prophets. This is intellectual dishonesty or plain ignorance.
Jesus (PBUH) was during Roman Empire, well documented period. If you reject his existence, then you also reject Roman’s history?
Mohammad (PBUH) came 1400 years ago with 60,000 witnesses? This does not count also!
Either you misunderstood on a fundamental levelmy statement or youre simply an ignoramus. Its not a miracle to exist. i never denies that jesus or muhammad existed,]. they simply werent prophets and didnt perform miracles
@arraba99 4. World view, as an acknowledgement and understanding of the knowledge gathered by humanity during that specific period. They didn't even know the earth was round. That's how ignorant they were. To them, what we know as middle east was "the world". This is why "narrow" is an accurate description of their worldview.
3: You are dismissing Chinese, Greek, Indian, Persian & Islamic science! Do you think science started in 20th century or when? Where are you drawing time line on this?
4: Muslim scientist calculated Earth circumference of Earth in 7th-8th (?) century, and knew it was round from the Quran, This is well documented
You are speaking out of complete ignorance: Egyptians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Arabs, Persians, Indians communicated & knew beyond the Middle East
@arraba99 3. I'm not dismissing other civilizations. I'm dismissing the narrow scope the middle eastern cradle of christianity and judaism had. The civilizations you mentioned were infinitely more advanced than the ignorant ramblings of the middle eastern shepherds living when those 3 characters were mainstream gossip.
4. Who cares if a muslim calculated it? That doesn't mean his god told him about it, does it? The role of deities in these fantastic breakthroughs is merely inspirational.
@arraba99 I don't remove comments unless it is to fix grammar mistakes.
Adressing your points: Did your prophets know about the existence of the americas? I doubt so. Did they know about other remote places, like Australia, or thhe poles perhaps? Nothing about that is ever pointed out. So no, you can't get away with that claim, sir. These people didn't have a broad worldview. Granted, Muslims around 800AD could have had a larger understanding, but not half as ours.
4: I did not say G-d told Muslim scientist Earth circumference; but we may agree here that religion (in this case Quran) inspired Muslims to learn, inquire & discover.
Specifically, I was stating Quran described Earth as geospheric, which along with other Quran scientific cues, lead Muslims to advance science.
My point was & is, religion is not anti-science & certainly NOT Quran. Human & scientific history proves that & disprove Sam’s unsupported assertions.
@arraba99 Inspire, that is correct. Teach, is not correct, though. Learn the difference between these 2 words, and a lot of things will become clearer. Inspiration, however, doesn't need to be divine, as i already pointed out with the astrophycisist example. I can be inspired by rather trivial things to do great deeds. A clear example: The beauty of women has inspired monumental works, even if it's a relatively trivial thing (with all due respect to women).
@arraba99 The problem is that you seem to believe god himself told these guys how to study his magnificent (albeit, somewhat flawed) work of art, when there's absolutely no evidence to conclude such a thing. The fact we're able to stand in awe before the greatness of the cosmos, or even of our little blue planet doesn't mean you can get away with sliding your imaginary friend in the seemingly endless knowledge gaps we happen to have, and you know it.
@arraba99 It was a pleasure. I'm very sorry you can't have the intellectual honesty to understand when you're pointed to your own mistakes. I hope you are able to fix that eventually.
In short, you can't demonstrate the truth of what you're claiming, and you still haven't understood Sam Harris' point here. All you have is the qur'an is true because the qur
an said so, period. I trully hope you get to learn from other books, and not just this particular collection of fairytales.
Sorry, I may have responded to you (instead of another comment) about being polemics. Most of the dialogue I had, has been of the polemic nature which becomes boring
But there is still a huge gulf in our discussion. I studied science for six years (still do), before I studied the Quran (still do). And from your comments you do not seem to have even reasonable first hand knowledge of the Quran. Hence no common frame of reference upon which to in-depth discussion.
Unless you have Ph.D. in astrophysics, you probably do not know what I know. I have made full circle from believing, to disbelieving & back to believing again all through Astrophysics. The key is an open mind; I am not sure if you have that
Quran: 17:36 “And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge…”
IF sincere, study the Quran, not out of contexts snippets. You would not do that with a simple novel, why would you do it with a complex book, Quran.
@arraba99 Who cares what you know? You're trying to equate ancient scribblings to modern science and rigurous investigation, like the former included the latter. You don't need to have a title to see how wild this assertion is. It becomes more evident when you claim this particular book defines some sort of purpose where there is none. Purpose is what you decide to see in order to slide your imaginary friend in every pocket of scientific ignorance, as dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson would say it.
A book that “claims” to define creator, creation, their relationship, life, its purpose, its guide & its transformation. It can be as complex as your intellect can bear & as simple as desert Bedouin mind
Reasoning takes hard work: knowledge, analysis, reflection. It took Dr. Lang, Prof of Math, hard effort. He converted from atheism to Islam through analysis & reasoning of Quran –Not scientific miracles. Check YT: “Jeffrey Lang - The Purpose Of Life Part 1 Of 7”
@arraba99 And you're right, reasoning demands effort. An effort that you're deliberately slacking off by allowing arguments from ignorance to blur your vision of reality. When you claim science proves god, it's not only a blatant lie, but also a significant sign of a confirmation bias from a culture you happen to live into. In the end, you still haven't been able to demonstrate the existence of this creator, and alleging the universe is his work isn't going to do the trick.
And I thought, here we may finaly have an Atheist with intelligence & possibly an open mind.
I have done my homework! And have travelled full circle; assuming you have the science (any) why do you not acquire first hand knowledge (Quran) so you are able to discuss in specifics instead of generalities & seemingly prepared & regurgitated script. It is uninteresting.
Just study one Chapter (the larger ones) & lets discuss with knowledge.
@arraba99 You're trying to attribute these magnificent discoveries to an imaginary being, when it is clear these things were discovered through investigation and observation. This is religion hijcacking the diligent work of a lot of smart people and repurposing it to suit as advertising material. At most you can claim these guys were amazed by the complexity of the universe, in the same way an astrophycisist gets moved by the sight of a star cluster millions of light years away.
The title is misleading. He did not say that these guys were dumb; it actually would've surprised me, had he done that. He simply said that these people where ignorant. If you really interpreted Harris as saying such a statement, namely that Abraham and the others were dumb, I would venture to say that the dumb is you.
this person is so close-minded, he needs to read and analyze the bible before finalizing a conclusion on his thesis. Jesus states in the book of Matthew that science would increase. That people would go from here to there (transportation). Currently by science you can prove that the Bible is inspired by God.
Of course the Bible and the Talmud were both inspired and revealed by G-d.
The problem is that the Bible was written decades after Jesus (PBUH) was left to the heavens; and his companions were few and some were killed. Hence his message was not well documented
Furthermore later the bible was corrupted with man made insertions. When you read the Bible you can see the writing was NOT consistent. You can recognize those most of these insertions.
Example: the 12 stones of the new Jerusalem that the apostle John explains in the book of revelation. With a new technology in the spectrum of light, the value of the 12 specific stones are revealed and the diamonds loose their light value. How did John know the value of not one but 12 stones if he didn't have the technology of today? He didn't but God knew.
@helperthrope Just live your life and don't be so hatefull towards other people. There's no point in arguing, we're both individuals that laugh and cry, and after a long day at work, I'm 2 tired to even respond to some of the things you say.. so I'le leave it at that if you don't mind sir. Good evening
@helperthrope I don't want to debate you or argue with you over who's right and who's wrong. You can have your opinions and your lill fantasy version of reality and history, I don't care.. Allah ta Aala is enough for me, you and your opinions matter not.
If someone knocks down science without knowledge, we call him ignorant. Do not knock down Quran without knowledge. If you are atheist (or not) and claim reason; the first dictate of REASON is to know.
Do not knock it down based on Hollywood & media sound bites & the likes of Sam who admits to never reading the Quran or commentators who twist things for their own agenda.
Check all American atheist Dr. Laurence Brown (Episode 3) search for truth
@arraba99 I knock down the Koran for the same reason I knock down the other "Holy Books" While all of the "Holy Books" do contain some pearls of wisdom, they also contain much dogma that is plain silly because it is based on the notion that there is a deity of some sort who controls the world, universe, etc. Some unbiased simple observation will lead any rational freethinking person to the inescapable conclusion that there is no such principle at work. There is no God, Allah, YHWH, or Krishna
I am not sure which of your ends you are talking from. I am guessing the lower one.
At least have credibility & get your facts straight. Golden age of Islam is 7th – 15th century, Google it. When all Muslim advances occurred & gave us: Empirical methods, Algebra, Chemistry, heliocentric model, Earth circumference & advanced medicine (surgery, c-section), astronmy, philosophy, arts …etc
You either ignorant, irrational or plain a dogmaticAtheist; Not sure which is worse!
@arraba99 I know the facts. Golden age of Islam = 7th-15th century? Yes it is true that the Arab cultures made contributions to mankind's knowledge base but as the religion grew more stale and controlling, this blossoming withered and died on the vine as the weeds of Islam choked it to death. This occured because Islamic men didn't have the balls to prevail over religious dogma bullshit unlike Europe and the Americas where freethinking prospered and great advances were made while the the ....
Sorry, but your response shows dogmatic irrationality or predisposed maliciousness.
You agree that Islam golden age was 7th – 15th century; you also agree this the period during which Muslims/Arabs led the world in discoveries; Yet you conclude Islam stifled progress. It does NOT add up!! A little intellectual honesty, please.
Muslim/Arabs contributed little prior to 7th Century & regressed 16th – 20th century. The very period they drifted away from Islamic teaching.
@arraba99 I think you had better check some unbiased historical sources outside of your Muslim sources. Unbiased sources unequivically show that one of the main reasons that Islamic advances in science declined was because of the restrictions imposed on medical and scientific investigation. Not because they "drifted away", but BECAUSE they were choked down by the Muslim religious leaders. Get your head out of the Koran and educate yourself in some non biased sources.
I get my facts from “Western” sources not Islamic; I am sure you can access them, but you seem pent on your bias
First: Non-Believers refers to G-dless people (not Christians/Jews)
An-Nawawi referred to Waging war on non-believers waging war on Muslims. Millions of Jews, Christians, Hindus… lived in under Islam & they were NOT forced to convert.
99.999% of 1.5B Muslims are peace loving. Much higher war mongers in West: WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq
@arraba99 Main problem with your peace posturing is that I lived in a Muslim controlled country and saw firsthand how Muslims treat those who do not believe as they do. The examples of your words clearly portray your state of mind. You talk peace and tolerance in one breath and then express the opposite in the next. Take a moment and review your statements.. then tell me truthfully that you have not expressed hatred and violence. I may think your religion is shit but I am not a hypocrite.
Please tell me where I expressed Hatred or Violence
I may have used strong language with those who were using vulgarity to insult G-d or any prophet. I hope you do not consider vulgarity against a person or faith as free speech
But, I am first to admit that I am far from being perfect human nor perfect Muslim. I strive for betterment but I have my flaws & Muslims too have their flaws just like everyone else
I would never ask you to assess Islam based on my behaviour
Ch. (109): “ SAY: " (1)O you who deny the truth [Allah]!, (2) and neither do you worship that which I worship!, (3) And I will not worship ~hat which you have [ever] worshipped, (4) and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship, (5) Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine.
Where do you find such tolerance of other faiths\ thoughts
Problem with West & Muslims is that of exploitation & natural resistance to it
@arraba99 Yes, you may find words in your Koran that advocate peace, love, tolerance, etc but it is bullshit because you still find terrorist training camps in the Muslim World. Jihad? Holy War? Bullcrap! The fact is that you are still waging war with the modern day equivalents of the "Sword of Allah" You are a liar, a liar to others, and also a liar to yourself. No surprise to me - that is the way of religion. Religion is self-delusion. There is no God period!
Now, you are resorting to irrational emotional outbursts by calling me "liar..liar ...". why do you not show me where I am wrong with facts and supporting citation, instead.
If you are of the “enlightened” atheists, is this how you prove your point? I thought you value rationality and claim it as the reason to reject G-d and religion. Or do you feel cornered with reason & just want to escape. If you do, no need to end with unnecessary name calling. It is disappointing
@arraba99 Part 2 (continued from below) .... religion stifled Islamic World slid further and further into the pits of ignorance. Please note that I am not saying that Arabic people are inferior mentally, I am saying that the religion of Islam, while encompassing much that is good, does act as a drag log on the advance of scientific knowledge. The present problem with Islamic thought is that too many of them believe that the way of Islam should be like it was in the past..... (cont. in part 3)
Ignorance is bad enough; persistence on it is stupidity; Judging by it is dogmatic irrational.
I was born into Islam, abandoned it through ignorance of Quran, as I studied astrophysics returned when I studied Quran/Islam with open mind. I initially relied on primitive knowledge of Quran & people’s perception. Perception is not Knowledge & certainly not reality.
Quran words occurrence reveal its emphasis: Sword 0 times; Life 477; Death 197, passive description
@arraba99 You have missed the point. The Koran is not the main cause of the problem. The problem is that many too many ignorant Muslims believe that they are justified in doing all kinds of inhuman acts to defend and promote their faith. At least the vast majority of the similialy deluded Christos followers have gotten over that stage. If we could just get rid of the deluded fundamentalist of both faiths, the world would be a better place.
I agree partially on: “The Quran is not the main cause of the problem”, as I think Quran is never the problem, I think Muslims & non-Muslim ignorance of the Quran is the main problem. Read it without the built in bias & you may agree.
In fact, Muslims ignorance of Quran leads them to un-Islamic bad cultural practices & also miss on its value system: freedom of thought, tolerance, forgiveness, honesty, fairness, equality, non-discrimination, helping needy & powerless.
@arraba99 Part 3 (cont) ...that is to say: the way of the sword. Instead of recognizing that their religion is based on an inferior and very outdated world view, and taking steps to correct the problem: they continue to cling to the past and console themselves with thoughts about "their Golden Age". Get real! That was then, this is now! The "way of the sword" won't win against the science and the technology of the West.
Knowledge 224; Peace 56; War 5 in defence; Do NOT kill 12; kill in defence 1; Mercy 48; Forgive/Forgiveness 160; Punishment passive 49; Reward 125. Poor 13, Orphan 22;
This is not “way of the Sword”
Problem: Atheists/Westerns form their opinion on Quran/Islam based on: 1) Their knowledge of other anti-science religions; 2) Actions of some misguided Muslims; 3) Ignorance of Quran; and/or 4) predisposed position they are ready to rationalise regardless of facts
@arraba99 Bullshit The 42 Traditions of An-Nawawi explicitly state that Muslims are to wage war on non-believers (infidels) until they embrace the Islamic creed. And what is waging war? Traditionally, that has been the way of the sword for Muslims. Yes, there are many peace loving Muslims, but there also a bunch of you who are; as you say, " misguided." Much of the world view Muslims as wolves concealed in sheep's clothing. Rid yourself of the hate mongerers and practice peace.
@arraba99 LOL I checked out your Dr. Brown. Nothing surprising there. It is true that some self proclaimed atheists do surrender to their weakness and find that they are cripples and need the crutch of religion. It is obvious to me that he never really fully accepted that there is no deity and always had a part of himself that yearned for a "daddy" that would comfort him and tell him everything was all right: he would exist after death, blah, blah blah.....
@arraba99 His story of his prayer at the birth of his 2nd daughter amply demonstrates this scenario. I am not surprised that his search led him through the various religions and now have him in the embrace of Islam. Although he was able to see the problems within the earlier religions, he was at all times deluded in his basic belief that there is a deity and that the deity is interested in him. In Islam, he found a more evolved religion that had learned from the fallacies of ...
Dr. Brown has his legitimate reasons, you must respect that. There are many Atheists & theists who when they read the Quran without bias or malice recognise it could not be but the word f G-d. This include scientist Atheists, Christians, Jews, Buddhist, and no two have the same reasons for conversion. One converted because he read of the Quran reference Human finger prints, not known till 2oth century, others (Japanese Doc) because of Quran reference to skin layers
@arraba99 this sura is saying that on the day of judgement, Allah will be able to reconstruct all of the dead in every detail. It says nothing about finger "prints", but finger tips - which is not where the "print" is anyway. As far as the uniqueness of finger prints, ancient Egyptians and later Chinese both used fingerprints as signitures on art and contracts respectively. Did Allah send Gabriel to wisper in the ears of Egyptian potters and Chinese merchants as well?
@arraba99 the earlier Jewish and Christian religions. But, and this is a big BUT; Islam still contains fallacies and morally wrong ideas. This is not surprising: Muhammad was an enlightened man, and I believe he was a good man. But like all men, he was a product of his times and culture. And thus there are still many prejudices and hateful ideas contained in his, and his successors' ideas. If you examine critically the evolution of thought on God, you may come to the conclusion that......
There are as many reasons for conversion as they are converts. Every story, as human are, is unique. Some moved by reason and logic; Some are moved by the heart and others by both.
Some convert almost immediately, others take years and some never convert, because of numerous reasons (ego, family pressures, negative stereo types...). But all agree converts or non, that the Quran is unlike anything they have read. And they respect it greatly.
@arraba99 ...mankind is overdue for another prophet or two. Or maybe we have had one more recently in the establishment of the Baha'i Faith. LOL Please understand that these observations are simply from a historical look at the process of religious evolution, and not from any belief in any deity. As for Dr Brown, do not be surprised if he wakes up to the fact of his self delusion, and leaves Islam behind. All in all, I have to agree that many people could come up with a religion that is...
@arraba99 ...superior to any of the religions of today. In fact, that is what many people do. They ignore the stupid, hateful, racist, etc... teachings and believe only those tenets that are justifiable as good. Unfortunately, we have the other side of the coin in that there are people who disregard the love, and believe only those portions which justify their own mental pscychosis and hate. This is the second biggest problem wth religions, they can be misused and cause great evil.
@arraba99 The big wrong of religion is that it is based on a premise for which no satsfactory evidence exists, that being that there is a Deity who interacts with mankind. I cannot discount the possibility of there being a creator of the universe as there is not enough evidence yet to decide that question. But there is no question in my mind that there is god as portrayed in religious thought. In fact, I find it easier to believe in ancient astronauts. At least, there is possible evidence
@ TomFynn. Typical atheist remark. Check out Dr. William Lane Craig's videos as he repeatedly kicks Harris's ass. It is fun to watch. Oh by the way, Dawkins ( the king of the atheists gave a startling revelation...... He now believes in God ! Take that.
jpmortician 12 hours ago
@jpmortician WLC? The poster boy for the god of the gaps argument? Thanks, but no. If I want to know about the entropy of the universe during the Planck-Epoch, or the symmetry breaks leading to the know interactions, I'll stick with people who know what they are talking about. Krauss, Linde, Susskind, Witten.
PS: Dawkins believes in God...Now you *are* lying for Jesus.
TomFynn 11 hours ago
@TomFynn Wow ! All these big words impress me... NOT. Look again moron Dawkins dropped a bombshell... put that in your pipe and smoke it.
jpmortician 7 hours ago
@jpmortician You mean the debate in Oxford between Lennox and Dawkins of which Dawkins said "I contrasted his theistic beliefs in miracles with deistic beliefs, for which I said that a serious case could be made, although not a case that I would accept myself." (richarddawkins . net / audio / 3911-richard-dawkins-and-john-lennox-at-the-oxford-university-museum)? Stop with the quote mining by other people and start listening to what has been said.
TomFynn 6 hours ago
@ TomFynn. So Harris claims !
jpmortician 15 hours ago
@jpmortician Hmm, the word of a trained neuroscientist from the 21st century over the word of semi-illiterate superstitious goat-herders from the iron age? No contest, really.
And he is still right. These people *knew* next to nothing. Even today people still speak of miracles when the cancer does not what is expected of it. What would the goat-herders say? Exactly.
TomFynn 13 hours ago
Comment removed
huwrj 1 day ago
This guy knows nothing. Harris you are an ignorant asshole !
jpmortician 1 day ago
@jpmortician Exact quote: "These people knew nothing, next to nothing that is now...of the facts that are now relevant to us."
And that is the fucking truth.
TomFynn 16 hours ago
@TomFynn They were there at that time to witness it.
jpmortician 15 hours ago
@jpmortician So *they* claim.
TomFynn 15 hours ago
Even though I'm not religious in any way ,
I refuse to believe that Jesus ( if he existed ) was dumber than , for example , George Bush ...
Keep it up Sam .
NexisFilms 6 days ago
oh allah, bend over and receive my gift
snoweyeball 6 days ago
Being ignorant is not the same as dumb. If any of us had lived back then we would have been just as ignorant. That we live in and benefit from the base of knowledge that has accumulated over the centuries is simply happenstance.
sweetsweatyfeet 1 week ago
no mention of apple computers in the scriptures, poor deluded people, they must be wrong.
timob72 1 week ago
If not believing in desert djins and other supernatural events/characters makes me unintelligent, unqualified and somewhat and "close minded", so be it. I'd rather stick to the an objective reality full of uncertainties instead of an imaginary one basking in arrogant certainty of unprovable, unfalsifiable claims.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
You're still not getting it. You can claim all you want the Qur'an contains modern scientific knowledge, and that won't make it true. I couldn't care less if you find it uninteresting. Heck, you even dared saying the worldview of these 3 guys Harris spoke about wasn't narrow. For all the knowledge you may have, you certainly don't seem to apply it very consistently.
Unless you can provide consistent, objective, reliable evidence to support what you claim, i have no reason to believe you.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
A
You come across as an intelligent person. So l will try again
1: I am not interested in proving you wrong or you proving me wrong; But I am interested in defending my beliefs, informing others of it, for better understanding & human betterment. The rest is up to them. YouTube is NOT best medium for fruitful lengthy & deep discussions
2: Please do not reference Sam Harris, I have no respect for him, as he is more fanatical than the fundamentals he is attacking
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 How exactly is Harris "fanatical"? Just because he points out blatant flaws in the religious mindset that you happen to cherish doesn't mean he isn't right about many things. Truth can be disheartening by times, but it's important to acknowledge one's mistakes and take steps to fix them.
About "science" in the qur'an, it's expectable to see some of this going on, considering the early islamic culture embraced the spirit of investigation and research.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@arraba99 This doesn't mean, however, that the quir'an reflects divine revelations of any sort. The role of a deity is merely inspirational, but as i've already exposed, inspiration can come from many sources, many of them tangible (remeber the view of a distant nebula example), so belief in unproven fantasies is not needed to develop exactly the same results, and modern science brings up face to face with this fact.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
B
3: Open mind does not mean you/I have to believe in anything that comes along, including Quran. But it means making reasonable effort to research, understand, dialogue with knowledge & draw your own conclusion
4: Quran is not a scientific book per se; but it has about 1000 verses dealing with science matters, some repeated. It is reason driven & you have to study some of it, first hand; I can not cite it all here & discuss it in-depth without any common ground
arraba99 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
C
5: I agree claims are not facts, unless & untill proven. That is done through researched & reasoning with an open mind.
6: I have been reading Talmud & Bible. I used to think they are like the Quran. They can NOT be more different. Torah & Bible are stories & many passages are clearly man made with low morality that contradicts the very nature of a holly book. Honesty, I would probably never have reverted to belief if that is the only option I had.
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 It is important to keep an open mind, and i will do so as long as people bring evidence to support their claims, specially supernatural ones. YT is being dumb, so i'll continue later.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@arraba99 Back to this, how can you say with a straight face there's no compulsion in religion when apostacy itself is punished with death if we follow the rigurous scriptural terms within your holy book? Curiously, christians and jews will say exactly the same thing about your particular holy book. I hope you can understand this is nothing more than a cultural predisposition towards an evident confirmation bias, present within every religious mindset.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@arraba99 Keeping that in mind, it doesn't matter if your book asks you toreason and reflect, when on the other side it shamelessly threatens it's adepts with horrible tortures if they somehow happen to arrive at a "wrong" conclusion after doing precisely what their holy book tells them. This, my friend, is called a double standard. Reason and inquiry can not prosper when they are subject to this kind of irrational imaginary threats, but sadly tends to have devastating effect on weaker minds.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
My friend you disappoint me again
Quran, (or I) never claimed that Allah is not, as you put it the “Star”; Quran is the word of all mighty all forgiving all merciful creator, as stipulated in every Surah, is above his creation
Which he gives guidance to; those that follow, are rewarded & who do not are punished
You expect him to say: I created you, gave you all these blessing & I will reward you if you follow my guidance, Satan's or your whims in transgression
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 I referred to him as the star, because it focuses on him and his relation with humans. It's expectable to find support for him in his own book, just like other holy books represent their respective deities as their "stars". I do want to go back to this punishment and rewards thing. You said there's no compulsion in this religion, when it;s pretty evident by the way this divine "justice" is managed.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@arraba99 I mean, this god tells you to explore and study his creation, yet he will punish you if you don't arrive to the conclusions he expects from you? That's pretty far from what i'd call merciful and all forgiving, regardless of how you want to rationalize it to free him from guilt of this blatant flaw in his alleged "perfect" judging system. This threats are precisely the compulsory element to the story. If this guy was actually what you claim him to be, there would be no need for threats.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
D
Quran is very clear on belief being personal & reasoned. It constantly asks the reader to reason & reflect
Quran: 17:36 “And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge…”
109:3-5: “…And I will not worship that which you have [ever] worshipped; and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship; Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine”
2:256 “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error…”
Salam, peace
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba9 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. Quran 2:256
abc18abc19 1 week ago
@abc18abc19 Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment, Quran 2/257
abc18abc19 1 week ago
@abc18abc19 There's no compulsion in religion. It's just that if you believe in the wrong religion, Allah will torture you after you die by burning you forever in hell.
abc18abc19 1 week ago
@arraba99 Since we're playing the taking out of context quotes game, let me complete that one for you: "There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower."
What you did there was not only dishonest, but it clearly exposes the confirmation bias im speaking about. Allah's book is OBVIOUSLY gonna have allah as the star.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
There was no dishonesty
1) Space does not allow to cite the full verses unless crucial to point
2) The continuation of the verse add to my case rather than take away from it. It just states that believing in the creator (Allah) is the true unbreakable path
Concept of reward/punishment do not cancel free choice
Our manmade laws/rules on family, norms, schools & state there is reward/punishment for following/ breaking rules
Why are you raising these basics!!!
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 About this claim about your god being the "true" unbreakable path, how exactly do you know this? There are plenty of holy books out there with people and gods making exactly the same claims, yet somehow you manage to establish this is the right one?
Btw, your analogy between divine and man-made laws is flawed, because we can actually see and interact with people who made these laws, yet we don't see this god of yours walking around managing justice himself.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@arraba99 Man-made laws and our justice system are a product of our social nature. They're made to ensure, in their own flawed way, the well-being of most of us, at least in modern societies. Sadly, we can't really say the same about some backward systems based on primitive superstition, where the mere act of not believing the mainstream religion means you deserve to die. You may be familiar with some of these totalitarian systems, and how the Qur'an is used to enforce them.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@arraba99 But i wonder what would happen if you happen to arrive to a different conclusion, and pick the wrong god, or in my case, none of them at all. What exactly happens to people if they stride away from the path of islam and find different paths, according to your religion?
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
Our human civilization collectively and at the individual is based on accountability; and when it breaks down weather at the state, family, corporate, cultural or individual level, major problems follows. I hope that is evident to you
Why would you expect that to be different at the highest level of our being? It is should be even more crucial
Had G-d not sent messengers with guidance, then it would not be fair to judge us. This is one of Quran’s major themes.
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 But in general terms, modern societies are indeed based on accountability. You commit a crime, the law will hit you and put you in jail to pay for your transgressions. We came up with these things not because a magical imaginary being crafted our moral system, but because as social beings, we perceive the evident benefits of getting along relatively well.
Sadly for your case, this doesn't apply to the rest of the universe. This concept of divine accountability is wishful thinking.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@arraba99 We are familiar with accountability as sentient beings, but once we cease to exist, anything relevant to the physical entity we now know as "I" or "ME" fades into oblivion, since we have no evidence for minds existing without brains. The issue here, is we somehow want to transcend our unavoidable fate. This is why mankind comes up with the kind of myths you follow. It's been happening for millenia now, yet no evidence for them has ever been presented.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
Can you tell me if you have read or studied any significant part of the Quran?
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 I've read some passages, plus what muslims sometimes quote as "evidence" to support their claims. I haven't read it all, though.
About this alleged forgiveness, you're still trying to rationalize this evident bribe. Why should i give away my intellect in deference to this imaginary character that hasn't even been proven to exist? Even if he had created me, that doesn't give him the right to judge me with eternal torment if i happen to come to a "wrong" conclusion under by standards.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
A
Do few passages of a book (Quran) qualify for passing judgement on it? Can you do so with Einstein General Relativity or any other book?
As I said, without knowledge of the topic there is no sufficient common ground to have an intelligent & hence fruitful discussion; only a pointless polemic exchange, better suited for deficient intellect, which you should be above
Almost every word/verse in the Quran requires reflection/reasoning for those with deep intellect.
arraba99 6 days ago
@arraba99 The main problem with your Qur'an is, when you see the supernatural claims made in it, and then check the evidence available for them, you begin to distrust it. It would be like reading the biblical genesis and pretending something initially crafted to be taken literally such as the talking snake and actually buying into it simply because the book has the "word of god" slogan. When you read a work of fiction, you can easily identify it as such. Indoctrination tries to negate this.
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@arraba99 This is why you don't really need to have read every single word in these holy books to safely conclude they are work of fiction, and poor attempts by primitive men to understand a world that was beyond their grasp. Acknowledging them as our "first attempts" at knowledge is credit enough to them, but from there to jump to conclusions such as them containing modern scientific knowledge is simply silly.
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@arraba99 This is also why your analogy with reading Einsteins General Relativity doesn't work. As a scientist, Einstein supported a system entirely based on objective, observable evidence, something any of the holy books around lack.
About your god being able to do whatever he wants, i'm sorry to disappoint you, but he doesn't. The fact you believe he does conducts me to distrust your personal morality, with all due respect. Basically, might makes right. Pretty immoral system.
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@arraba99 Regardless if he created me or not (something you HAVE to substantiate in order to make a positive claim), a creator has no right to do whatever he wants. Risking sounding cheesy, and even exposing to laughter, i will quote one of the best comic book lessons ever: With great power comes great responsibility (Spiderman's uncle Ben, in case you don;t know it). This also applies to an almighty creator, if he exists. Heck, a comic book writer was able to figure out that one!
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@hellhammerz666
B
Yes, your creator, & creator of all blessing you enjoy, has the right to do what he pleases; chuck ego! You grant relatively similar (but lesser) rights to much lesser entities: state, family, parents… etc. They did not create you!
Here on earth, if you do not go by the rules (education, work hard, obey law…) you will have a miserable life.
Better analogy is father punishing son for breaking rules, although some do it for not loving (appreciating) them back.
arraba99 6 days ago
@arraba99 Now, even if your god was punishing a transgression, do you really believe he's able to torture you forever for a crime committed in a finite life? Really??? Because if you do, it only validates my distrust towards your moral system. To be honest, i don'y think there's any case in which an infinite punishment is deserved for a finite life's crime. I'm very sorry your religion has polluted your mind so much to actually believe this is actually moral and loving. Disgusting....
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@arraba99 This would be like a father punishing his kid for not loving him back, but way worse, since the alleged punishment extends for eternity. The main problem is that your god supposedly made the rules, created everything, yet has the nerve to blame US (his IMPERFECT creations) for something he should have done properly in the first place. OF course, we happen to have somehow transgressed his holy command by the act of being born, so we gotta make up for it? That's insane, if you ask me.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
C
You have it backward.
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets (anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers)
arraba99 6 days ago
@hellhammerz666
C
You have it backward.
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets (anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers)
arraba99 6 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@hellhammerz666
C
You have it backward.
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets-anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers
arraba99 6 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@hellhammerz666
C
You have it backward.
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets-anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers
arraba99 6 days ago
@hellhammerz666
F
Your creator asks that you believe in him & worship him alone & nothing else; worship here is not just few prayers (as Muslims do) but in your way life & your pursuit.
G-d asks not to be greedy – His messenger Mohammad says “Work for this life as if you will live forever, and work for the thereafter as if you will die tomorrow” i.e. BALANCE.
“ He who sleeps on a full stomach while his neighbour is hungry does not actually believe in me” The Noble Prophet (PBUH)
arraba99 6 days ago
@hellhammerz666 What sort of evidence are you looking for?
UnkownSoldier100 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
@hellhammerz666
A
The all forgiving and all Merciful are his ability & willingness to forgive your sins if & when you repent to him, no intermediaries. And he gives you that opportunity till before your souls depart your body.
No one else gives you this leeway. If you break the law of the state you are punished, there is no room for repentance unless it is minor issue.
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 This being could only be described as a cruel bully. One that requires compulsory worshiping by lesser creatures in order to satisfy his own perverted standards. In case you haven't noticed, your religion IS compulsory. Worship this god being, or get screwed up for all eternity. Fair deal, right? The "option" you speak of is no free option. It's like saying you commit suicide when you decide not to give a thug your money when having his gun pointed at your head. It's absurd.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
G
Unless corrupted by man, I believe all religions teach goodness.
If you read the Quran: it asks to believe in the oneness & supremacy of G-d; equality of races & colours, helping the poor & powerless, selflessness, justice, modesty, humbleness, generosity, mercy, forgiveness, patience, chastity, compassion, diligence, empathy, frugality, kindness, love, moderation, peace, piety, persistence, honesty…etc
It emphasizes substance over materialism & giving over taking.
arraba99 6 days ago
@arraba99 I don't care about religions teaching goodness. In exchange for polluting people's minds with unfalsifiable claims and lies, i don't think the "good" they do is worth the sacrtifice of our own humanity in deference to unproven primitive imaginations. Besides, i'd really like you to mention one single good action that only a religious person would be able to perform specifically based on their belief. And i'm not talking about earning paradise, or anything else included in their dogma.
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@arraba99 I'm talkign abour REAL, tangible actions. Something that only a religious person can do, that a secular one wouldn't be able to.
About humbleness, a personal creator that made the world for you is your idea of humbleness? I mean, in a vast universe beyond our craziest dreams, do you honestly believe an almighty creator would have done all this with you in mind? Do you even get to see the irony in all this? You preach humbleness, while performing arrogance. Bad move there, pal.
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@arraba99 All the other characteristics you described are perfectly achievable without the need of an imaginary friend. We may not be perfect, but heck, i do know well enough i strive for goodness, and i don't need some imaginary skydaddy pulling my strings in order to do so. That is, of course, unless you decide he does it anyway without me noticing, which would be (yet another) unfalsifiable claim you'd need to substantiate with evidence, so let's not even go there for now.
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@hellhammerz666
B
As your creator he would be within his right to inflect punishment on you immediately once you break his laws. So yes I would call that the utmost in mercy & forgiveness.
How else would you have liked that to be handled? No punishment at all? All the same? Please answer specifically, not in generalities.
You are really stretching the meaning of the word compulsion. Compulsion is when you have no choice and force here & now.
arraba99 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
C
Otherwise, by your definition our whole life within the state, family, corporation is based on compulsion. Is it? I.e. No free choice.
If you read the Quran you will find punishment used mostly in passive terms 49 times;
Reward is used 125 times and in it many forms about 800+ times. I call that the creator is more focused on rewards rather than punishment. As human most of us are sufficiently moved by reward, but some only by punishment & others by both.
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 And it doesn't really matter the qur'an phrases it in a positive way. This belief system exalts gullibility (aka faith) as the highest of virtues, while questioning it's foundation is regarded as a severe transgression. What kind of "freedom" can prosper under these backward terms? What kind of rational freedom can exist when it's deliberately and systematically suppressed by compulsive belief and worshiping? "Rewards" are offered to those gullible, or weak enough to buy into it.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
E
Lust for worldly power creates greed & enslaves men to pursuit of it at any cost: Greedy corporations, wars, destruction of environments, resulting killing & poverty…etc. Some people (1%) have money to burn, some are struggling & others dying of hunger;
Long list, limited space.
Your perceived freedom of disbelieving in G-d & in doing what please, my friend, is an illusion; It is enslavement to your whims and endless pursuit of empty materialism. Think about it!
arraba99 6 days ago
@hellhammerz666
D
Quran addresses came to all address us accordingly with reward and punishment.
Besides, I for one, if was not forewarned of possible punishment for my transgression, if they occur, I would argue the unfairness of the punishment.
Calling forewarning as threats is pushing the meaning of the word. Is the speed limit infraction its possible punishment a threat or a warning for those who break it. I hope we can focus more on substance and less on Symantec’s.
arraba99 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
E
Yes, each religion claim to be right, so which one is. The answer varies from one to another. If one believes that Judaism, Christianity & Islam are religions, then obviously the later supersedes the former. If one does not believe in all of them being religions and/or believe there are other religions (Buddhism, Hinduism). Then one would explore all & see which one he/she believes to true.
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 Of course every religion claims to be right. However, when you see so many contesting doctrines, and take a step back, you realize not all of them can be right, but all of them could be wrong. Since NONE of them have provided sufficient evidence to support their respective supernatural claims, i'd rather not believe in any of them, willing to be convinced if such evidence is produced. It will have to be damn good evidence, however. Ancient scribblings won't do the trick for me.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
D
Latest outfits, latest plastic surgeries now even to beatify their vaginas & endless pursuit of unhappiness - USA: 50% of married men & 33% of Married women cheat on their spouse, you can guess the consequences. Note: 70% of converts to Islam are females!
Check suicide rate in Hollywood? How happy the rich & famous are? Often empty life’s as materials & fame alone, do not achieve happiness.
Note: God in English does not translate to Allah (in Arabic), so I use G-d.
arraba99 6 days ago
@hellhammerz666
F
Some wanted to stay within the Abrahamic faiths so only explored them & others explored Buddhism & Hinduism also. But the vast majority of converts are to Islam. They almost always cite its simplicity (oneness of G-d), structure, your direct one on relation with G-d, its clarity - must read the Quran for that & its reasoned common sense & practical approach.
But each convert (Check YouTube) has his/her own reason.
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 And it doesn't really matter if a majority of the people end up converting to islam. That's called an ad populum fallacy, commonly used by believers of the mainstream religions, to somehow claim that majortary belief makes them true. However, we can have a long list of things the "majority" believed to be true back in the day: flat earth, geocentrism, alchemy, magic, witches. Plenty of these things have been discarded, precisely because evidence to the contrary was provided.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
C
You have it backward, my friend
Faith in Creator provides ultimate freedom from enslavement to materialistic transient temptations while not denying balanced & full life enjoyment
Consumerism enslave people to endless pursuit of unneeded luxuries, brand names, latest trends & fads. Unachievable beauty standards, sexual objectifying of women enslaves them to immodesty & endless pursuit of unhealthy diets (anorexia is now killing women in their 40’s, not just teenagers)
arraba99 6 days ago
@arraba99 With religions it's a bit tougher, though, because they are founded upon unfalsifiable ideas, so they will most likely remain in the collective subconcient as hearthy feelings produced by wishful thinking and our innate human arrogance and egocentrism.
About souls, you'd have to define and demonstrate this thing is actually real. We're still stuck at demonstrating god, though, so i'm not holding my breath for that one.
Out of curiosity (and off topic..), why can't you spell god?
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
I have prepared several comments in response, each 500 Chars. A through I. But now it is limiting my comments to 200 Chars. I will have to post rest later.
arraba99 6 days ago
@hellhammerz666
H
Muslims regressed when they left ideals & adopted backward un-Islamic practices & some ills of the West but not its fast disappearing goodness. Till recently, focus has been more on Islamic outward appearance & form: prayers, dress, beards, Hijab …etc instead of inward faith, substance & one’s duty towards others (Muslims & non-Muslims). There is recent movement towards substance of Islam, but it will take few generations to make a difference.
arraba99 6 days ago
@arraba99 Granted, the west was sinking in a pretty crazy ideological abyss with christianity ahead of it. How does that make your religion more true than theirs? At best, you can claim it was better, but more true, or even true at all? To be honest, i don't really care what muslims decide to fashion physically, but i do believe their beliefs are just as flawed as any other religion that dares insult the human intellect by demanding unconditional faith.
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@hellhammerz666
I
What logic is: If all religion claim to be right then non is?
With such logic nothing would be right; everything has its anti-thesis. Imagine applying this logic in court! One judges by first carefully considering all sides.
How would any religion provide sufficient evidence of G-d without studying it –not just few passages.
I agree majority converts to Islam does not mean you should believe in it; But it provides sufficient reason to seriously investigate it.
arraba99 6 days ago
@arraba99 About logic, let's see the possible scenarios:
1. All of them can't be true.
2. One of them can be true.
3. None of them is true.
Seeing your posts, i suppose you'd go by option 2. However, without sufficient tangible and objective evidence, i'm afraid the only logical option left is 3. Again, i don't say your god isn't real (although i do believe that's the case), but that you folks haven't managed to provide sufficient evidence to support this particular claim.
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@arraba99 Attached to this unproven claim, you can count all the supernatural actions he supposedly performs in the physical world (miracles, creating the whole place, etc.). Objective evidence that can be shown to anyone, at anytime is absolutely required, and all religions have failed at finding it so far. PErhaps eventually they'll find it, but untill now, i'll reserve belief till something worthy pops up. When was the last time you saw a peer reviewed paper on the existence of your god?
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
@arraba99 The fact a vast majority of recognized scientists reject the idea of an intelligent creator should at least be a kick in the ass for this god to step up his game when providing such evidence. It's not even an ad populum fallacy, because these people actually dedicate their lifes to dilligently investigate and research the natural world, and so far nothing points out towards an intelligent creator, regardless of how much creationists want to allege such evidence is "all around us".
hellhammerz666 6 days ago
Comment removed
arraba99 5 days ago
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@hellhammerz666
Your comments prove futility of dialogue; My last comment on this:
1: Using insulting language is unnecessary
2: Read (& study) the Quran: speak from knowledge rather than ignorance
3: Knowledge &intellect-> Reason & belief – universal
Lack of knowledge & rationalization of most improbable vs. probable is a recipe for pointless dialogue
Check (YouTube)
Jeffrey Lang - The Purpose Of Life Part 1 Of 7
Science and Islam: Part 2: The Empire of Reason
Salam, peace
arraba99 5 days ago
@arraba99 1. Insulting language? Not sure how an exclamation is "insulting" but whatever.
2 I already exposed why it's not necessary to read all the qur'an to conclude it's a work of fiction crafted by primitive men attempting to understand the world around them.
3. It's not me who's ratinonalizing stuff here. In fact, it is YOU who's trying to rationalize a crazy and twisted moral system, and can't acknowledge the evident flaws within it as a clear sign of arrogance. Not my fault.
hellhammerz666 5 days ago
@hellhammerz666
G
Best I heard, a long time Atheist (born catholic) with full intent to finding truth, “if you are there (meaning G-d) guide me to your path & he sincerely explored most known religions & last one was Islam which he converted to.
Muslims are not expected to convert, only to rely message of Islam, by deeds more than words, but we do such a poor job of both. Given the state of Muslims it is truly miraculous that we have such high conversions.
arraba99 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
H
At any case, you will often hear Muslims say explore other religions & you will find your truth.
I can tell you, some converts are grateful that they converted before seeing how poorly many Muslims apply Islam & mutilate it with backward local cultural traditions. I learned long time ago to separate religion/ideology from its adherence, which is hard.
As for Human, there is also the soul in addition to brain/mind & heart, but that is another lengthy topic.
arraba99 1 week ago
They don't even know that the Earth is round... that's how far apart we actually are.
Athrun000 1 week ago
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@hellhammerz666
1: You have your history backward.
Man started as believer in the Creator & religion, starting with Adam (PBUH) & proceeding to Noah, Abraham, Idris, Moses, Jesus and ending with Mohammad (PBUT all)
After each messenger, man gradually corrupted religion thoughts & practices thus paganism. Then another massager is sent to re-guide man again to the truth.
So, NOT all Pagans customs & practices were evil/bad; hence righteous ones were continued & built upon.
arraba99 2 weeks ago
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arraba99 2 weeks ago
@CowherdingMike
Well Cowboy, it aitnot so, just becuase you say so!
Backup your statement with supporting evidence!
Start by reading world history of science.
arraba99 2 weeks ago
@arraba99
no prophets performed miracles, as there waere no prophets and no miracles. these prophets of islam are all charlatans trying to control your mind
MountAnalogue 2 weeks ago
@MountAnalogue
You said “…as there were no prophets and no miracles”
How convenient for Atheists!
You accept human history; before, after & during prophets period, but reject only that which relates to the Prophets. This is intellectual dishonesty or plain ignorance.
Jesus (PBUH) was during Roman Empire, well documented period. If you reject his existence, then you also reject Roman’s history?
Mohammad (PBUH) came 1400 years ago with 60,000 witnesses? This does not count also!
arraba99 2 weeks ago
@arraba99
Either you misunderstood on a fundamental levelmy statement or youre simply an ignoramus. Its not a miracle to exist. i never denies that jesus or muhammad existed,]. they simply werent prophets and didnt perform miracles
MountAnalogue 2 weeks ago
Debunking Sam babbles: B
“… there is no person in this room … who is world view is as narrow as Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad”
4: What is Sam’s definition of “world view” exactly! Scientific, morality, economic … etc.
How can one (supposedly a scientist) makes such sweeping statement without defining what it means?
How do their "world view" relate to their message and its supposed inapplicability to today’s world!
Is one to assume what he meant? What a sloppy generalization!
arraba99 2 weeks ago
@arraba99 4. World view, as an acknowledgement and understanding of the knowledge gathered by humanity during that specific period. They didn't even know the earth was round. That's how ignorant they were. To them, what we know as middle east was "the world". This is why "narrow" is an accurate description of their worldview.
hellhammerz666 2 weeks ago
@hellhammerz666
Cont'd
3: You are dismissing Chinese, Greek, Indian, Persian & Islamic science! Do you think science started in 20th century or when? Where are you drawing time line on this?
4: Muslim scientist calculated Earth circumference of Earth in 7th-8th (?) century, and knew it was round from the Quran, This is well documented
You are speaking out of complete ignorance: Egyptians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Arabs, Persians, Indians communicated & knew beyond the Middle East
arraba99 2 weeks ago
@arraba99 3. I'm not dismissing other civilizations. I'm dismissing the narrow scope the middle eastern cradle of christianity and judaism had. The civilizations you mentioned were infinitely more advanced than the ignorant ramblings of the middle eastern shepherds living when those 3 characters were mainstream gossip.
4. Who cares if a muslim calculated it? That doesn't mean his god told him about it, does it? The role of deities in these fantastic breakthroughs is merely inspirational.
hellhammerz666 2 weeks ago
@hellhammerz666
3: You removed your comment which was dismissing previous human civilization, as if non existed prior current one. I responded to that.
You are wrong again, prior to & during the period of these prophets human civilization existed & had adequate relevant worldview.
You (& Sam) are displaying ignorance of history as the Middle East is considered by even "secular" historian as cradle of civilization.
Read some books or Google it & you will see how wrong you are.
arraba99 2 weeks ago
@arraba99 I don't remove comments unless it is to fix grammar mistakes.
Adressing your points: Did your prophets know about the existence of the americas? I doubt so. Did they know about other remote places, like Australia, or thhe poles perhaps? Nothing about that is ever pointed out. So no, you can't get away with that claim, sir. These people didn't have a broad worldview. Granted, Muslims around 800AD could have had a larger understanding, but not half as ours.
hellhammerz666 2 weeks ago
@hellhammerz666
4: I did not say G-d told Muslim scientist Earth circumference; but we may agree here that religion (in this case Quran) inspired Muslims to learn, inquire & discover.
Specifically, I was stating Quran described Earth as geospheric, which along with other Quran scientific cues, lead Muslims to advance science.
My point was & is, religion is not anti-science & certainly NOT Quran. Human & scientific history proves that & disprove Sam’s unsupported assertions.
arraba99 2 weeks ago
@arraba99 Inspire, that is correct. Teach, is not correct, though. Learn the difference between these 2 words, and a lot of things will become clearer. Inspiration, however, doesn't need to be divine, as i already pointed out with the astrophycisist example. I can be inspired by rather trivial things to do great deeds. A clear example: The beauty of women has inspired monumental works, even if it's a relatively trivial thing (with all due respect to women).
hellhammerz666 2 weeks ago
@arraba99 The problem is that you seem to believe god himself told these guys how to study his magnificent (albeit, somewhat flawed) work of art, when there's absolutely no evidence to conclude such a thing. The fact we're able to stand in awe before the greatness of the cosmos, or even of our little blue planet doesn't mean you can get away with sliding your imaginary friend in the seemingly endless knowledge gaps we happen to have, and you know it.
hellhammerz666 2 weeks ago
@hellhammerz666
Sorry, it is pointless a waste of time to dialogue with irrational polemicsl;
As they ready to rationalize .0001% of probability against 99.999%.
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 It was a pleasure. I'm very sorry you can't have the intellectual honesty to understand when you're pointed to your own mistakes. I hope you are able to fix that eventually.
In short, you can't demonstrate the truth of what you're claiming, and you still haven't understood Sam Harris' point here. All you have is the qur'an is true because the qur
an said so, period. I trully hope you get to learn from other books, and not just this particular collection of fairytales.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
Sorry, I may have responded to you (instead of another comment) about being polemics. Most of the dialogue I had, has been of the polemic nature which becomes boring
But there is still a huge gulf in our discussion. I studied science for six years (still do), before I studied the Quran (still do). And from your comments you do not seem to have even reasonable first hand knowledge of the Quran. Hence no common frame of reference upon which to in-depth discussion.
arraba99 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
Unless you have Ph.D. in astrophysics, you probably do not know what I know. I have made full circle from believing, to disbelieving & back to believing again all through Astrophysics. The key is an open mind; I am not sure if you have that
Quran: 17:36 “And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge…”
IF sincere, study the Quran, not out of contexts snippets. You would not do that with a simple novel, why would you do it with a complex book, Quran.
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 Who cares what you know? You're trying to equate ancient scribblings to modern science and rigurous investigation, like the former included the latter. You don't need to have a title to see how wild this assertion is. It becomes more evident when you claim this particular book defines some sort of purpose where there is none. Purpose is what you decide to see in order to slide your imaginary friend in every pocket of scientific ignorance, as dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson would say it.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
A book that “claims” to define creator, creation, their relationship, life, its purpose, its guide & its transformation. It can be as complex as your intellect can bear & as simple as desert Bedouin mind
Reasoning takes hard work: knowledge, analysis, reflection. It took Dr. Lang, Prof of Math, hard effort. He converted from atheism to Islam through analysis & reasoning of Quran –Not scientific miracles. Check YT: “Jeffrey Lang - The Purpose Of Life Part 1 Of 7”
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 And you're right, reasoning demands effort. An effort that you're deliberately slacking off by allowing arguments from ignorance to blur your vision of reality. When you claim science proves god, it's not only a blatant lie, but also a significant sign of a confirmation bias from a culture you happen to live into. In the end, you still haven't been able to demonstrate the existence of this creator, and alleging the universe is his work isn't going to do the trick.
hellhammerz666 1 week ago
@hellhammerz666
You disappoint me!!!
And I thought, here we may finaly have an Atheist with intelligence & possibly an open mind.
I have done my homework! And have travelled full circle; assuming you have the science (any) why do you not acquire first hand knowledge (Quran) so you are able to discuss in specifics instead of generalities & seemingly prepared & regurgitated script. It is uninteresting.
Just study one Chapter (the larger ones) & lets discuss with knowledge.
arraba99 1 week ago
@arraba99 You're trying to attribute these magnificent discoveries to an imaginary being, when it is clear these things were discovered through investigation and observation. This is religion hijcacking the diligent work of a lot of smart people and repurposing it to suit as advertising material. At most you can claim these guys were amazed by the complexity of the universe, in the same way an astrophycisist gets moved by the sight of a star cluster millions of light years away.
hellhammerz666 2 weeks ago
The title is misleading. He did not say that these guys were dumb; it actually would've surprised me, had he done that. He simply said that these people where ignorant. If you really interpreted Harris as saying such a statement, namely that Abraham and the others were dumb, I would venture to say that the dumb is you.
Xerkun 2 weeks ago
you foolish man if you only knew what moses knew you would feel quite foolish for such statements!
613stam 2 weeks ago
@613stam most likely because if you only knew what Moses knew you wouldn't be able to comprehend this.
deanneugebauer 2 weeks ago
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@613stam fuck you fucking atheist! your mother fucks and sucks cocks in trucks to get some bucks for buying rocks. may god have mercy on your soul...
diekontrolleure 2 weeks ago
Was Jesus a person? Was Moses?
Tsnore 3 weeks ago
@Tsnore
Of course both Moses and Jesus (PBUT) were persons.
arraba99 3 weeks ago
@arraba99
No....they weren't.
They ONLY exist within the pages of the bogus religious literature that they're affiliated with.
blackadam06 2 weeks ago
this person is so close-minded, he needs to read and analyze the bible before finalizing a conclusion on his thesis. Jesus states in the book of Matthew that science would increase. That people would go from here to there (transportation). Currently by science you can prove that the Bible is inspired by God.
junior030303 3 weeks ago
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arraba99 3 weeks ago
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@junior030303
Of course the Bible and the Talmud were both inspired and revealed by G-d.
The problem is that the Bible was written decades after Jesus (PBUH) was left to the heavens; and his companions were few and some were killed. Hence his message was not well documented
Furthermore later the bible was corrupted with man made insertions. When you read the Bible you can see the writing was NOT consistent. You can recognize those most of these insertions.
arraba99 3 weeks ago
Example: the 12 stones of the new Jerusalem that the apostle John explains in the book of revelation. With a new technology in the spectrum of light, the value of the 12 specific stones are revealed and the diamonds loose their light value. How did John know the value of not one but 12 stones if he didn't have the technology of today? He didn't but God knew.
junior030303 3 weeks ago
Thank you for posting this, SundriedAtheist.
writersblock26 4 weeks ago
@helperthrope
People create problems not religion. Religion as science or other ideologies can be used for good or can be used for bad,
arraba99 1 month ago
@helperthrope Just live your life and don't be so hatefull towards other people. There's no point in arguing, we're both individuals that laugh and cry, and after a long day at work, I'm 2 tired to even respond to some of the things you say.. so I'le leave it at that if you don't mind sir. Good evening
XaeeD 1 month ago
@helperthrope I don't want to debate you or argue with you over who's right and who's wrong. You can have your opinions and your lill fantasy version of reality and history, I don't care.. Allah ta Aala is enough for me, you and your opinions matter not.
XaeeD 1 month ago
Reason can not exist without knowledge
If someone knocks down science without knowledge, we call him ignorant. Do not knock down Quran without knowledge. If you are atheist (or not) and claim reason; the first dictate of REASON is to know.
Do not knock it down based on Hollywood & media sound bites & the likes of Sam who admits to never reading the Quran or commentators who twist things for their own agenda.
Check all American atheist Dr. Laurence Brown (Episode 3) search for truth
arraba99 1 month ago
@arraba99 I knock down the Koran for the same reason I knock down the other "Holy Books" While all of the "Holy Books" do contain some pearls of wisdom, they also contain much dogma that is plain silly because it is based on the notion that there is a deity of some sort who controls the world, universe, etc. Some unbiased simple observation will lead any rational freethinking person to the inescapable conclusion that there is no such principle at work. There is no God, Allah, YHWH, or Krishna
Slik00Silk 1 month ago
@Slik00Silk
I am not sure which of your ends you are talking from. I am guessing the lower one.
At least have credibility & get your facts straight. Golden age of Islam is 7th – 15th century, Google it. When all Muslim advances occurred & gave us: Empirical methods, Algebra, Chemistry, heliocentric model, Earth circumference & advanced medicine (surgery, c-section), astronmy, philosophy, arts …etc
You either ignorant, irrational or plain a dogmaticAtheist; Not sure which is worse!
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@arraba99 I know the facts. Golden age of Islam = 7th-15th century? Yes it is true that the Arab cultures made contributions to mankind's knowledge base but as the religion grew more stale and controlling, this blossoming withered and died on the vine as the weeds of Islam choked it to death. This occured because Islamic men didn't have the balls to prevail over religious dogma bullshit unlike Europe and the Americas where freethinking prospered and great advances were made while the the ....
Slik00Silk 4 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
Sorry, but your response shows dogmatic irrationality or predisposed maliciousness.
You agree that Islam golden age was 7th – 15th century; you also agree this the period during which Muslims/Arabs led the world in discoveries; Yet you conclude Islam stifled progress. It does NOT add up!! A little intellectual honesty, please.
Muslim/Arabs contributed little prior to 7th Century & regressed 16th – 20th century. The very period they drifted away from Islamic teaching.
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@arraba99 I think you had better check some unbiased historical sources outside of your Muslim sources. Unbiased sources unequivically show that one of the main reasons that Islamic advances in science declined was because of the restrictions imposed on medical and scientific investigation. Not because they "drifted away", but BECAUSE they were choked down by the Muslim religious leaders. Get your head out of the Koran and educate yourself in some non biased sources.
Slik00Silk 4 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
I get my facts from “Western” sources not Islamic; I am sure you can access them, but you seem pent on your bias
First: Non-Believers refers to G-dless people (not Christians/Jews)
An-Nawawi referred to Waging war on non-believers waging war on Muslims. Millions of Jews, Christians, Hindus… lived in under Islam & they were NOT forced to convert.
99.999% of 1.5B Muslims are peace loving. Much higher war mongers in West: WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq
Rational please.
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@arraba99 Main problem with your peace posturing is that I lived in a Muslim controlled country and saw firsthand how Muslims treat those who do not believe as they do. The examples of your words clearly portray your state of mind. You talk peace and tolerance in one breath and then express the opposite in the next. Take a moment and review your statements.. then tell me truthfully that you have not expressed hatred and violence. I may think your religion is shit but I am not a hypocrite.
Slik00Silk 4 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
Please tell me where I expressed Hatred or Violence
I may have used strong language with those who were using vulgarity to insult G-d or any prophet. I hope you do not consider vulgarity against a person or faith as free speech
But, I am first to admit that I am far from being perfect human nor perfect Muslim. I strive for betterment but I have my flaws & Muslims too have their flaws just like everyone else
I would never ask you to assess Islam based on my behaviour
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
Cont’d
Quran on freedom of religion/thought.
Ch. (109): “ SAY: " (1)O you who deny the truth [Allah]!, (2) and neither do you worship that which I worship!, (3) And I will not worship ~hat which you have [ever] worshipped, (4) and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship, (5) Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine.
Where do you find such tolerance of other faiths\ thoughts
Problem with West & Muslims is that of exploitation & natural resistance to it
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@arraba99 Yes, you may find words in your Koran that advocate peace, love, tolerance, etc but it is bullshit because you still find terrorist training camps in the Muslim World. Jihad? Holy War? Bullcrap! The fact is that you are still waging war with the modern day equivalents of the "Sword of Allah" You are a liar, a liar to others, and also a liar to yourself. No surprise to me - that is the way of religion. Religion is self-delusion. There is no God period!
Slik00Silk 4 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
Now, you are resorting to irrational emotional outbursts by calling me "liar..liar ...". why do you not show me where I am wrong with facts and supporting citation, instead.
If you are of the “enlightened” atheists, is this how you prove your point? I thought you value rationality and claim it as the reason to reject G-d and religion. Or do you feel cornered with reason & just want to escape. If you do, no need to end with unnecessary name calling. It is disappointing
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@arraba99 Part 2 (continued from below) .... religion stifled Islamic World slid further and further into the pits of ignorance. Please note that I am not saying that Arabic people are inferior mentally, I am saying that the religion of Islam, while encompassing much that is good, does act as a drag log on the advance of scientific knowledge. The present problem with Islamic thought is that too many of them believe that the way of Islam should be like it was in the past..... (cont. in part 3)
Slik00Silk 4 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
Cont’d 1
Ignorance is bad enough; persistence on it is stupidity; Judging by it is dogmatic irrational.
I was born into Islam, abandoned it through ignorance of Quran, as I studied astrophysics returned when I studied Quran/Islam with open mind. I initially relied on primitive knowledge of Quran & people’s perception. Perception is not Knowledge & certainly not reality.
Quran words occurrence reveal its emphasis: Sword 0 times; Life 477; Death 197, passive description
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@arraba99 You have missed the point. The Koran is not the main cause of the problem. The problem is that many too many ignorant Muslims believe that they are justified in doing all kinds of inhuman acts to defend and promote their faith. At least the vast majority of the similialy deluded Christos followers have gotten over that stage. If we could just get rid of the deluded fundamentalist of both faiths, the world would be a better place.
Slik00Silk 4 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
I agree partially on: “The Quran is not the main cause of the problem”, as I think Quran is never the problem, I think Muslims & non-Muslim ignorance of the Quran is the main problem. Read it without the built in bias & you may agree.
In fact, Muslims ignorance of Quran leads them to un-Islamic bad cultural practices & also miss on its value system: freedom of thought, tolerance, forgiveness, honesty, fairness, equality, non-discrimination, helping needy & powerless.
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@arraba99 Part 3 (cont) ...that is to say: the way of the sword. Instead of recognizing that their religion is based on an inferior and very outdated world view, and taking steps to correct the problem: they continue to cling to the past and console themselves with thoughts about "their Golden Age". Get real! That was then, this is now! The "way of the sword" won't win against the science and the technology of the West.
Slik00Silk 4 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
Cont’d 2
Knowledge 224; Peace 56; War 5 in defence; Do NOT kill 12; kill in defence 1; Mercy 48; Forgive/Forgiveness 160; Punishment passive 49; Reward 125. Poor 13, Orphan 22;
This is not “way of the Sword”
Problem: Atheists/Westerns form their opinion on Quran/Islam based on: 1) Their knowledge of other anti-science religions; 2) Actions of some misguided Muslims; 3) Ignorance of Quran; and/or 4) predisposed position they are ready to rationalise regardless of facts
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@arraba99 Bullshit The 42 Traditions of An-Nawawi explicitly state that Muslims are to wage war on non-believers (infidels) until they embrace the Islamic creed. And what is waging war? Traditionally, that has been the way of the sword for Muslims. Yes, there are many peace loving Muslims, but there also a bunch of you who are; as you say, " misguided." Much of the world view Muslims as wolves concealed in sheep's clothing. Rid yourself of the hate mongerers and practice peace.
Slik00Silk 4 weeks ago
Comment removed
arraba99 4 weeks ago
@arraba99 LOL I checked out your Dr. Brown. Nothing surprising there. It is true that some self proclaimed atheists do surrender to their weakness and find that they are cripples and need the crutch of religion. It is obvious to me that he never really fully accepted that there is no deity and always had a part of himself that yearned for a "daddy" that would comfort him and tell him everything was all right: he would exist after death, blah, blah blah.....
Slik00Silk 3 weeks ago
@arraba99 His story of his prayer at the birth of his 2nd daughter amply demonstrates this scenario. I am not surprised that his search led him through the various religions and now have him in the embrace of Islam. Although he was able to see the problems within the earlier religions, he was at all times deluded in his basic belief that there is a deity and that the deity is interested in him. In Islam, he found a more evolved religion that had learned from the fallacies of ...
Slik00Silk 3 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
Dr. Brown has his legitimate reasons, you must respect that. There are many Atheists & theists who when they read the Quran without bias or malice recognise it could not be but the word f G-d. This include scientist Atheists, Christians, Jews, Buddhist, and no two have the same reasons for conversion. One converted because he read of the Quran reference Human finger prints, not known till 2oth century, others (Japanese Doc) because of Quran reference to skin layers
arraba99 3 weeks ago
@arraba99 this sura is saying that on the day of judgement, Allah will be able to reconstruct all of the dead in every detail. It says nothing about finger "prints", but finger tips - which is not where the "print" is anyway. As far as the uniqueness of finger prints, ancient Egyptians and later Chinese both used fingerprints as signitures on art and contracts respectively. Did Allah send Gabriel to wisper in the ears of Egyptian potters and Chinese merchants as well?
vwgolf1991 3 weeks ago
@vwgolf1991
Which Sura you are refering to?
It is not TRUE egyptions and Chinese knew of finger prints. Please cite your proof, not just claims. Any one can claim anything.
arraba99 3 weeks ago
@arraba99 the earlier Jewish and Christian religions. But, and this is a big BUT; Islam still contains fallacies and morally wrong ideas. This is not surprising: Muhammad was an enlightened man, and I believe he was a good man. But like all men, he was a product of his times and culture. And thus there are still many prejudices and hateful ideas contained in his, and his successors' ideas. If you examine critically the evolution of thought on God, you may come to the conclusion that......
Slik00Silk 3 weeks ago
@Slik00Silk
There are as many reasons for conversion as they are converts. Every story, as human are, is unique. Some moved by reason and logic; Some are moved by the heart and others by both.
Some convert almost immediately, others take years and some never convert, because of numerous reasons (ego, family pressures, negative stereo types...). But all agree converts or non, that the Quran is unlike anything they have read. And they respect it greatly.
arraba99 3 weeks ago
@arraba99 ...mankind is overdue for another prophet or two. Or maybe we have had one more recently in the establishment of the Baha'i Faith. LOL Please understand that these observations are simply from a historical look at the process of religious evolution, and not from any belief in any deity. As for Dr Brown, do not be surprised if he wakes up to the fact of his self delusion, and leaves Islam behind. All in all, I have to agree that many people could come up with a religion that is...
Slik00Silk 3 weeks ago
@arraba99 ...superior to any of the religions of today. In fact, that is what many people do. They ignore the stupid, hateful, racist, etc... teachings and believe only those tenets that are justifiable as good. Unfortunately, we have the other side of the coin in that there are people who disregard the love, and believe only those portions which justify their own mental pscychosis and hate. This is the second biggest problem wth religions, they can be misused and cause great evil.
Slik00Silk 3 weeks ago
@arraba99 The big wrong of religion is that it is based on a premise for which no satsfactory evidence exists, that being that there is a Deity who interacts with mankind. I cannot discount the possibility of there being a creator of the universe as there is not enough evidence yet to decide that question. But there is no question in my mind that there is god as portrayed in religious thought. In fact, I find it easier to believe in ancient astronauts. At least, there is possible evidence
Slik00Silk 3 weeks ago