Guns or butter?

[mba2ceo]

GOVT do NOT care about the slaves. Govt serve Elites desires.

[imrich6]

RIP Mr. Zinn, and fuck the anti-human, Orientalist, anti-American neocons!

[TheOmegaeyes]

This man should be Obama's adviser

[ruck27]

awesome

[tls2156]

RIP Mr.Zinn, you will be missed! one of the last true patriots, you spoke truth to power.

[vatoencabronado]

RIP

[richardptimm]

Zinn is one of the last of American Prophets.  He is simply relaying in words what any rational person thinks and knows to be of a truth. He can't help but speak the truth, to the detriment of his reputation by the bloody-minded, ignorant, and those already pre-posessed by fascistic ideals. As long as we're divided, we're conquerable. Were it not for our vast resources, our Constitution wouldn't have lasted 50 years. Stop thinking 2-dimensionally, and think in volume, and time.

[diman75]

As long as you pay taxes, imposed on you by the people in power, you have every right to criticize their actions and your country for that matter.

[ghostfacekhila]

gold. thanks! every american should watch this

[bachandl1]

I agree with Zinn, but I think he underestimates the extent to which our wealth is tied to the large military. Indeed much of our economy depends on the large military and its buying power.

[s4njuro]

"War is no longer viable as a way of solving problems in the world." 9:20

This is a good point but I'm not sure it ever was a viable way of solving problems.

[jsh78mang]

As a last resort yes. Look at nazi germany now look up how many treaties they signed with contries they fought with and invaded after signing agreements to not invade...but did anyway.

[Jasonmilitia2009]

@s4njuro With out uprisings and war we wouldn’t be the society we are today and ultimately would lack a sense of democracy. It is quite utopian of one to claim war was never feasible; however, to remove tyrants such as Hitler or protect a nation from imperialism we unfortunately must use force. In such a condensed world, thanks to technology, we can now see what is happening in another country with the click of a mouse. With help of the UN its hard to find feasible reason to invade others

[jkiene]

The Glass is half full, not half empty.

Zinn view's his world as half empty. He's a salesman, selling pessimism and victimhood. He couldn't make it as an optomist...too much competition which he loathes. he hates competition because he's not good at it. Neither are most other liberals.

[yourboyken]

Reality says that the glass is empty this is why i will vote for Ron Paul in 2012!

[theMAXILOPEZpsycho]

I'd like to ask Zinn, just hypothetically, as opposed to all the american aggresion as I am, what would happen if the US reduced it's military spending to 0?? Doesn't he think someone else would just follow the same aggresive policies and invade them and others??...

[avalsonline]

if US cut it's military budget in half, it would still spend more money on it than any other country in the world. and tell me, with all the money US spends on the military why is it that we cant pay our troops a respectable wage and provide them with body armor. where does all that money go?

[nosuchthingasshould]

i don't know of a single empire that stopped itself. empires collaps or are defeated. america esse delendam.

[Gettinghitonattheban]

Let them have cake!

[jkiene]

History of Expansion...zinn hates this.

He hates America

He hates economic motives and natural instinctive competitiveness

Hates the Military. Passivist

Make sure everyone has jobs through forced transfer of wealth

He hates his high standard of living, not sure why?

Huge sums of Money to re-distribute wealth

All we are saying is give peace a chance..

Hitler should have been left alone

zinn has done more to harm our country than Obama ever will

[HCLivess]

arent those natural instinctives a bit broad? or are you trying to tell us that everyone should behave naturally, like Nixon? Please comment ad hoc or not at all. Nobody is expecting such emotional expressions.

[jkiene]

The point is a Leftist like Zinn thinks it's possible to force equality where everyone is equal, not equal opportunity but equal. That type of Utopia has never existed and never will. Humans compete. Is that specific enough? This video is about zinn not Nixon...

[jblive1985]

in places like in the kibbutz ect they have systems like that

[mikezephyr]

you know how your paean to the innateness of competitiveness (as the cause of social inequality) is mythological? because there are hegemonic institutions and cultural narratives dedicated to the perpetuation of inequality- like the military for example- that treat hierarchy as a given when this is false. these are just games people play. there is no naturalness to slavery, but

it would be stupid for a slave-master to say that they are not 'naturally' or 'divinely' fit to rule.

[mikezephyr]

here's a fact from anthropology (the science of humanity): over 95% of the history of homo sapiens is marked by egalitarianism, the abundance of resources and the ease of satisfying basic and higher needs. in a word, the overwhelmingly prevailing condition of the species has not been that of warfare, mental illness, systemic inequality, poverty, alienation and the exploitation of the ecosphere- these are modern aberrations peculiar to the 10,000 year old experiment of civilization.

[mikezephyr]

you're wrong. howard zinn is arguing against american imperialism- both corporate dominance and military oppression. there is nothing natural, divine or biological about the state, religion or capitalism because these are recent human inventions informed by historical and social forces alone.

zinn is pointing out the pathology of american expansionism (genocide, industrial warfare, wage-slavery) as the result of a pathological mindset seeing america as the One Right Culture.

[boretalyn]

Thank you finally a breath of fresh air and one that speaks the truth and knows that what Zinn speaks is the truth. The rest of the panel just doesnt get it. Some people like being sheeple. Gore Vidal said it best America is the dumbest first world country in the world. Peace. and Thanks again.

[jkiene]

Typical leftist postion. Imperialisim, Corporate dominance, Oppression.

Go visit the rest of the world and compare and discover the standard of living to that of the United States. Sorry for spelling out the United States..I'm sure it was offensive to you

[RottingintheMidwest]

America isn't even in the top ten of living standards in the world. That isn't to say that the US is a bad place to live, but it is not number one.

[panopticon7]

and more to the point--the poverty of the rest of the world, jkiene, is a direct result of the american imperialism you are oblivious to. the US corporatocracy is a vampire, a parasite, and it feeds off the US population and the world--i have to wonder how you can seriously believe that the success of a tiny minority of ultra wealthy people somehow translates to a higher domestic standard when there are millions without homes all around you. ah, but not in plain view. maybe open your eyes?

[jkiene]

Maybe it would be wise for you to move elsewhere where you can fight the USA from abroad? By the way, the USA provides billions of Aid to the rest of the world annually, more than any other country of the world and has raised the standard of living throughout the world. You obviously feel cheated in your life from something? and it's to bad you loathe the USA.

[BryanB02]

yeah, don't forget all the military aid to israel.

stupid argument. sorry.

[jkiene]

Oh thanks... that sets me straight.

[avalsonline]

just because you criticise your country, does not mean you loathe it. the terrorists who kill americans, they hate america. people who suggest that some of the US practices are overreaching, people who say america is not always right, thise guys dont hate US. they are using their freedom of speech, trying to improve the country.

[jkiene]

Typically if you view America as a positive force in the world ,achieving a net value to it's people, then you are probably more conservative. If you view America as a net negative force in the world and cause of oppression (in American) then you are more Zinn like. He has tried to re-write history protraying America as the problem of the world... Sad really. Zinn is a problem finder and a passivist and pessimist. He's an Intellectual who hates America what it was and what it is..

[chokkan7]

For a conservative, your definition of a liberal (or Zinn-like, as you said) seems very self-serving. There are other options, such as he did research and is reporting the results of same.

[boretalyn]

you have no idea what you are talking about zinn has been hosed bitten by dogs and jailed for our rights as a people of injustice in this country. Don't talk about shit you know nothing about. LIsten and learn something you dumb ass. You hear what you want to hear not what you need to hear. This man speaks the real unadulterated truth. He talks the talk and he has walked the walk. So shut your mouth and listen. Peace.

[jkiene]

Wow, your language is proof of your hostility toward people who don't view the world the way you do.

I especially found your last sentence interesting..."So shut your mouth and listen. Peace".

Liberalism = less freedom, Personal restrictions. I can't take care of myself please government help me please!

Libertarian = more freedom, personal choice and independent from big brother

This is my opinon! You can and have the right to think the way you want to think, liberal

[panopticon7]

Liberalism = a scare word used by sociopaths, empty of meaningful content and used to mean anything from progressive politics to neo-conservative economic policy.

Socialism = from each according to his abilities, to each according to his work.

Libertarianism = from each according to my demands, to each according to my whims.

[jkiene]

Liberalism = what my definition is to me and no one else

Under Socialism you forgot to add...according to his work... which is run by the state.

[gerogerohey]

Roman Empire! It fell.

[ludovico86]

jay, don't forget gravel talked about taking on the military industrial complex, marginalised though as he was.

[PhotonDrive]

Baloney comments for the most part. For two weeks McPain has been yelling "Socialism" at Obama. Yet WHOSE campaign is being paid for by the TAX-PAYERS? Who rushed to DC to ensure the 700B "Bail-out" would include NO REGULATION & NO OVERSITE? Yes, McPain is the real "Socialist" - a "Socialist" for the RICH "Capitalist BUMS" & the military! You think he would have learned- but no, his tank-suit still covers all the scars of his violent and ignorant nature!

[bleunt]

You should create easy ways for Europeans to contribute.

[immanent]

I'll donate, but for Christ's sake, get more experts who believe in truly free markets, and not this fake mixed-economy that we have. How about an interview with Lew Rockwell, or Walter E. Williams?

[lordblazer]

truly free markets don't really work. They all end up in huge monopolies. Then eventually oligopoly.

[immanent]

How do you know monopolies don't work? Because school taught you so, and because there are anti-trust laws on the books?

Hardly a good reason at all, unless you like other people to do the thinking for you. If a company acquires monopoly, or exceedingly dominant market share LEGITIMATELY - meaning without the benefit of favorable government mandate/regulation - then it means they've provided a good/service at a far better price than anyone else could. What's bad about this?

[bootleg42]

The fact that a company would rise with the labor of other people does not make it legitimate. People who work in a place ought to own it. Such a company would have to exploit labor a ton to rise in such a fashion.

[immanent]

Does a CEO force you into labor or an employment contract with a given corporation? No. If there were a better mechanism, with business freely able to organize in whatever form they find suitable, you might work for that worker-owned company instead. If you can do it better, why haven't you? I'll tell you why: regulation enabled by GOVERNMENT. Corporatism at it's shining worst, inhibiting the free market.

[joelramirezramirez]

ike is great

[dustynbones]

Both Parties are Republican. There was originally the Whig Party (Republican) and the Democratic Republican Party (Republican).

The United States Constitution

Article. IV. - The States

Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

[KentAllard]

anorak

[dustynbones]

sophomoric

[cincinnatusnow]

America needs to listen to Ron Paul on the subjects of economics and empire.Foreign,domestic,and economic policies are all linked.The status quo can not continue or be afforded-in many ways.Its time for constructive real change-not the status quo dressed up as change.Whoever becomes president giveen the choices we have will still be owned by the same interests that are destroying America for their gain.

[antiparticlesteve]

What you need to do is KEEP SHIT REAL, its all over for the US, way too much damage done , its too late. Teach you Americans for having your heads up your arses with your greed and materialism. I was once on a cruise ship with 1500 dumb arse Americans. Most of you people are so fucken dumb.

The next two weeks will be HUGE.

Greedy fucks always go down in the end.

[Lawlow1978]

on the central bank issue i think ron paul is on to something but i dont know about him overall, like bootleg says

[InTheSticks1881]

American needs Ron Paul.

[bootleg42]

Hell no We don't need Paul. We don't need McCain or Obama neither.

What we need are worker's unions to be able to become powerful so that they can get better things for worker's.

Paul is anti-worker and very anti-democratic (like McCain and Obama). He hates unions.

Also he wants to 'cut spending'. According to a PIPA 2005 poll, the population wants spending to RAISE for social programs big time while spending to go down for military stuff. Paul wants to kill social programs. Fuck Paul.

[runmonsta]

Hear hear! Pity you're not the majority, good luck living in America :)

[OmarThePug]

Yeah, bootleg42. What we all need is the president of your union to ascend to office of US President and executive order you an pay raise and more benefits. Yep that will do it! Forget the fact that this country is turning into a tyrannical bankrupt sh8thole. As long as you can stuff food in your face and are under government umbrella, that's all that matters.

[bootleg42]

This just shows the un-democratic nature of the Paul bots. The majority want social spending to raise and military spending to drop and the Paul bots would not want to give it to them if they were in power.

Also interesting how you all hate the military-industrial complex....the public does want that to end or for spending on it to drop. They want raise in social programs along with it, a cause that is logical and human. If we lived in a civilized society, we'd do what the majority wants.

[immanent]

This country wasn't founded as a mere democracy. We live in a Constitutional Republic, a limited democracy. Learn the difference. Hell, even Noam Chomsky, leftist gatekeeper will educate you on how easy it is to 'manufacture consent.' The corporatist media does it with the flick of a wrist.

Everyone in America might vote to give everyone a yacht, but that doesn't make it a good idea, nor does it comport with the ideas of Constitutional government and individual liberty.

[bootleg42]

I know this country is a constitutional republic but I fight for democracy and the majority wants democracy, not a few "benevolent smart men" to rule over. If we're civilized, we'll fight for democracy.

Also though there is plenty of corporate propaganda, people STILL maintain their own opinions, as many polls suggest, the public's opinions many times goes in contra to corporate power and it also goes in contra to many of the ideas Paul has.

[InTheSticks1881]

Unions are needed. I don't know Ron Paul's opinion on that, but I do know he goes by the letter of the Constitution and freedom to do as you want is number one. I do, however, know his thinking very well on most. With a hyper inflationary depression headed our way and just like Ron Paul warned, we'll have to bring home the troops and drastically cut spending as he insisted should be done.

Too bad we didn't listen. Now we get to learn the hard way.

[immanent]

Unions are groups of people in free assembly. He has nothing against unions, but he can not (by rule of law) and would not legislate, or 'grant' special rights to unions or their workers that individuals do not already have.

[southshores777]

Bush is staying It's all a big fake job joke.

[sunamori6765]

"Civil disobedience is not our problem, our problem is civil obedience."

(Howard Zinn at John Hopkins Univ.- 1970)

[Blac13]

I am a Liberal, and though I am against war, I well aware that War, Peace, and Revolution are a never ending revolving door. We just have a bad way of choosing our battles wisely, due to politicians and corporations which see it only as a means of profit. Were in Iraq for Oil, money, but it's costing American people while others are filling there pockets. Terror is just an excuse.

[crock703]

War might just change, or the reason and means that groups form and go about conducting it.

Its gets harder and harder to talk 18 year olds into killing each other when they can watch videos online of each other's lives, listen to the same music/watch the same movies, realize they'd both more interested in talking to girls and getting their parents off their back.. than fighting wars for more abstract reasons. Adults will have an increasingly hard time rationalizing it all too.

[impalapez]

wow, nice thought...

[RationalLiberty]

"war is not a viable option anymore"

Hopefully so.

[cgraham1930]

i'm not a peaceful hippie, but i actually agree with this guy somewhat on this issue at least. yes, we need a strong military, but it needs to be home defending, not nation building elsewhere. it's an age when technology allows us to get good intelligence without bases in every continent, we can still defend ourselves from attack and launch counter attacks without spending money on foreign bases. stop and think how much of your tax dollars goes to soldiers chillin in korea, buying hookers.

[blackiron60]

It is an unfortunate thing but we must remember that America is an empire and empires do not give up their gains unless they are forced to do so - this has not been and will not be a peaceful century largely because of that.

[votethirdpartynow]

To Kepp Obama Honest Vote Nader Gonzalaz

[bbburton]

Finally Zinn is speaking like Ron Paul. Obama and McCain will never reduce our military presence around the world. But I do not agree with his assessment that we should be spending all that money on a welfare/socialist state. There is no difference between a nanny state and a military state; both rob you blind, both profess to protect and care for everyone. Both are destructive to freedom and liberty.

[immanent]

"The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war. Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists. "

- Ernest Hemingway

[AiresQX4]

Something to watch for no matter who wins the Presidency is to see if the new Adninistration will continue to follow the PNAC Doctrine. Now from what Iv'e gathered it looks as though the Bush Administration has done quite a bit of the demands but theres still more countries to be invaded and occupied like Syria,Venezuela,Iran,Pakistan and maybe a few more.. What I find funny is how Obama has mentioned these same countries as threats

against us. Maybe the Neocons are here to stay for good?

[brainpolice2]

Or we can reject both.

[LaughingMan0X]

Absolutely we reject both [ethically] in principle.

However, in a pragmatic sense, (since the dichotomy of state subsidy breaks down into either guns or butter) until the state breaks down, and in its place voluntary associations arises, it should be compelled to spend on butter (as opposed to guns). (for obvious reasons)

Put bluntly, if emphasis "has to" be place on the initiation of one or the other; butter should be preferred over killing people.

[brainpolice2]

Well I certainly think that dismantling the foreign policy and corporate welfare apparatus takes higher precedence.

[overmind25]

One day I will disagree with Brainpolice2 hopefully. Foreign policy is number one for me then social issues like gay/bi/polg marriages and decriminalizing drugs. Finally ending corporate welfare is the highest priority to me when it comes to economic freedoms.

[LaughingMan0X]

A agree. (also tack all military subsidy & operations on there as well)

(Also I see corporate welfare as "guns" section of the G&B dichotomy)

However, although these issues may take a kind-of "precedent," the issue of dismantling the coercive state apparatus is a multifaceted one.

My point is, as long as the state exists it will continue to steal from you and spend the fruits of your labor accordingly. (As this is inevitable) This issue then (somewhat) becomes getting guns switched to butter.

[Meloman0001]

I'm reading his book, "A People's History of the United States", right now, and its a great read

[GirlyVoice]

I'm not a fan of butter, or guns for that matter

[ikeike2]

I like this network but it's just as bad as Fox. Yes, just controlled by different Billionaires

[crock703]

"I like this network but it's just as bad as Fox. Yes, just controlled by different Billionaires."

get real.

[flyinghotwing]

how do you like it if u think its fox get real..fox is for idiots

[crock703]

that's what I was saying. He needs to "get real" with himself - fox is garbage, hardly journalism, and hardly informative most of the time.

And likening Real News to Fox News is like comparing tomatoes to ketchup. Real News isn't 70% commentary to start..

[rell127]

Not really this network actually reports things they showed bad things about Obama and McCain and he also was talking about why is there only 2 big parties.

[LILUCKSMO80]

DONT Watch it!!

[refedmel]

That is why you need to watch both -- to sort out the b_ll Sh_t both peddle.

[ThePerfectPresident]

RON PAUL !

[sunamori6765]

I've just read the short biography of Mr. Zinn in wikipedia. Impressive, to say the least.

Great to see this 86 year old man with clear, sharp and insightful ideas.

Congratulations to RNN for the interview.

5* and fav'ed.

[ShawnOlaid]

i just read a story in a kurt vonegat book called guns or butter

[ottomadicly]

Campainers always talk big. Everything Mr. Zinn has said is more reason to Vote Nader/Gonzalez '08 Thanks for giving Howard the air time. His viewpoints are always thought provoking and insightful.

[flyinghotwing]

nader is a prick too

[abilityoflove]

American foreign policy is mainly driven by the sentiment of "American Dream". Sentiments can be very selfish and fearful in nature and are often very protective to the point of vindictiveness and cruelty to those who threaten it.

We all have to deal with this in ourselves. Obviously, politicians often use this to gain power and manipulate people, especially the Republicans. Selfish sentimentalism and fascism are two sides of the same coin, which is the lack of emotional maturity.

[abilityoflove]

I've heard today Obama say: "there is nothing more fundamental than the American dream". The problem with that is that we live in a global interdependent world one planet. There cannot be any more American, Chinese or Russian dreams, and though the cultural/national identity must be preserved, only a dream of a civilised and progressive humanity as a whole is appropriate for this age.

[abilityoflove]

The "American Dream" belongs to 1930s, not to the 21st century. There is a much greater dream to dream today.

[crock703]

I don't know when the 'American Dream' thing started. I've always said that the original American Dream is the dream is that of independence from strong external power (self-reliance, civil liberties, etc.)

It seems that it was only with Industrialization and the immigration influx around the Homestead Act (free land), that the American Dream became more about wealth and cultivating domineering power (getting to be a king.)

[crock703]

I forget who said it (famous quote), but what makes America exceptional/unique/strong is that 'she' is based on an idea, not a culture or race. That idea is the American Dream, however much poorly-spoken (or of poor imagination) people convolve their expression of it with nostalgic imagery or the like.

That's why so many other peoples idealized America, b/c it includes them. America just needs to start acting more like America and pursue the ideal further, the rest of the world has caught up.

[random0815]

rather not, thats all just flowery mythology, just about every western country is based on ideas, mainly those of the enlightenment, and as repeated in the clip: for most members of the elite the idea of america was rather one of empire and aggressively spreading the culture around the world, and in the foundation of the country was of course more than just one noble idea - militarism, religionism, culturalism, racism aso.

[crock703]

I wasn't suggesting that America has embodied its ideal, just that the concept was its founders' inspiration, similarly inspiring immigrants. Its unique lack of history does make it stand out from other Western nations. For all their similar idealism, France, England, Sweden, etc have (or at least had) a stronger cultural and racial component to their national identity and history than America.

Rich elites usually see themselves as supranational, b/c wealth & power is a body unto itself.

[random0815]

yeah you have to distinguish between elites and general populous, still i dont really see the striking difference, due to wars and as you point out correctly the supranational influence of nobiliy and clergy europe was mixed up as well, and this strong sense of nation only developed with the emerging bourgeoisie in the 19. century, racial and cultural aspects didnt have this kind of relevance

[random0815]

for america the early (voluntary) immigrants were almost exclusively white european christians, the indigenous population and culture was wiped out without remorse or regret, not even acknowlegement, and when the founding fathers claimed that every man is endowed with these special rights it was understood that this doesnt extent to black people, natives aso., so matters are more complicated than the public mythology suggests

[crock703]

agreed, I'm not disputing that the U.S. has hardly ever lived up to its self-professed reputation.

There is a good American Dream/ideal that Jefferson & few others worked from. Its not 'American' as much as its the basic human aspiration (pursued through govt, art, religion, science, etc.)

The imagery of an American Dream, is really just a product of Industrialization-fever, packaged & exploited in the consumer age. Unimaginative politicians have just evoked 50s nuclear family advertising.

[abilityoflove]

When America was created, obviously the progressive ideas of the Enlightenment, had a more flexible and vital body for their expression, so to speak. Which is why America has grown into a leading nation of the world... well, until W-ya came.

[abilityoflove]

Crock703,

"America just needs to start acting more like America and pursue the ideal further, the rest of the world has caught up."

Well said. We need to create a vision of what the further is.

[sonatime]

Why is Ron Paul always right?:) Truly hope Obama will surprise us and will be people's best asset.

[FreakishDonQuixote]

"Why is Ron Paul always right?"

it's quite the opposite.

[schulwitz]

So I take it you still support Bush's wars?

[FreakishDonQuixote]

i never have

[MooseOfReason]

He was right about the economy. It's crumbling down.

He was right about our foreign policy. When we stick our nose in other countries' affairs, we get ourselves and the rest of the world in trouble.

So, Freakish, how is he wrong?

[overmind25]

Freakish is just another statist that advocates forced socialism and hates almost anything of a libertarian nature. I have my own disagreements with Paul and his forced Conditional Republic and state/local tyrannies but he is much more correct than those of the state forced socialist ilk.

[FreakishDonQuixote]

force bla bla bla force bla bla bla force! Do you anacaps notice how one dimensional and retarded you sound? I prefer a little bit of force over social darwinism.

[overmind25]

It depends how you define social darwninism. People are not encouraged to refain from giving out a free handout to others. They are not forced to and yes force is a big issue. Indiviuals do not need indiviuals in government to tell them to help others.

[FreakishDonQuixote]

That is social darwinism. You're telling me that if someone can't make it on his own, because he's disabled or suffers from a serious diseas or whatever, his life and the quality of his life should dependent on the benevolence of a financially superior class without having any influence himself.

[overmind25]

He/She will be dependent on any class that will help him/her including his/her family. The problem with social Darwinism is force. It can be an ideologue/individuals/groups that force their will on others without others consent and will imprison and/or kill them if they do not comply. That is statism.

[overmind25]

Again you are forgetting that you can form your social programs with others who want to be a part of it. You just cannot force others to pay into your system and take part in it. You are not the only one who cares about the sick which shows why we do not need a state which is just composed of other humans anyway who under your system would be elected by other humans. The state provides really nothing that wasnt already there which is caring humans.

[FreakishDonQuixote]

god, you bore me to death. I know the anacap position and you haven't refuted anything I say. Oh, yes. I can force others to pay into it, we already do it. In any case you still have the option to get the fuck out of my country... Sometimes the ends justify the means.

[overmind25]

I am talking about on a moral basis and under anarchism. Yes, if we have social Darwinist statist and their supporters like yourself that want to use force on others who just engage in voluntary trade than yes social Darwinism is in existence as it is already.

[overmind25]

I am for funding and taking part in certain collectivist programs under certain circumstances like education, health care, and retirement. I would never however advocate enslaving another to my will and force them to fund at threat of imprisonment/death to pay into them or take part in them.

[overmind25]

*force them at threat

[FreakishDonQuixote]

omg, the rich will die from a little taxation. why will no one think of the rich?! the only one advocating social darwinism is you, you're pathetic attempt of accusing me is just funny. give me a break.

[overmind25]

I am thinking about all people and how they should not be slaves to others no matter if they be what you consider rich or those you consider poor. I am not advocating force against those you consider poor and weaker compared to others. You are advocating force against those who do not want to take part in your ideological framework of how the world (or your country) should be run.

[overmind25]

Btw, you wrongly assume that you and your ideologue should own the "country." You and those individuals in the state own no one else or others homes. You and those bourgeoisies social darwnists in the state have no right to drive anyone off the land they live off of or purchased through trade because they do not want to be part of your slave statist system.

[FreakishDonQuixote]

what a bunch of BS.

[basszack]

good luck with that.