@swplan76 ...so what's the difference between an unbeliever and a Christian? One HUGE thing: Christians have an advocate standing before God, namely Jesus Christ. We are justified NOT because we have done anything or deserved it in any way, but because Christ justified us, and through faith we receive it. Both Christians and unbelievers are flesh and blood, they both suffer from illness and disease, they both sin, they both doubt...but Christians are forgiven, and God wants that for all.
@swplan76 And what WAS Jesus like? Does anyone know, outside of what Scripture says? More importantly though: Christians are sinners too! I don't know ONE 'perfect' Christian! And when you start pointing your finger at all the imperfect Christians who don't "reflect the love of Jesus", you show your lack of understanding toward what the faith is all about. Christian's aren't better, holier, more perfect than unbelievers. There are sinners in the church everywhere, so get used to it...
@swplan76 The "love" that I don't reflect is your definition, not the bible's. What sucks about trying to discuss these things with you post moderns is that as soon as your fallacious thinking is exposed, you cry "foul" or say "you're being mean" and you grab your toys and go home.
@swplan76 I realize that it's taboo to "dare" tell anyone that they're "wrong" in this generation and that is why you label me as being mean. If you can't support your own argumentation then you shouldn't have opened up the dialogue. I hope you come to gips with your fallacious thinking.
@swplan76 In addition, I AM NOT going to watch a Rob Bell video to find support for this. Unless what he says is backed by sound exegetical, biblical sources I'll file away with the rest of his rubbish. I have read and listened to far enough of his ideas to need to hear anymore. Rob Bell rolls and smokes his own theology and does things to scripture that nobody in church history has done.
@swplan76 Yes it is sad that I had to tell you you're a hypocrite, I wish you weren't. The reason you are one is because you like to cast doubt on absolute truth by using absolute truth claims. So in other woeds, when someone uses the sure word of God to knock down bad theology, you post moderns want to cast doubt about what truth is by making a truth claim. Voila! You're a hypocrite and don't even know it.
@swplan76 How can you appeal to truth as being "both/and" and then conclude with a definative statement that "being right is not a Jesus teaching". This is exactly the type of hypocritical "thinking" that results from this movement.
@gtrjunky Oh but it does have a way of filtering them out, I'm sure that there were thousands of people posting 'bell is lord' but thankfully, youtube filtering has prevailed. You're awesome by they way, What do you think of Westboro Baptist? I'm intrigued to know
B, you had me cracking up on this one homie. hey man greg boyd said that? wow? and who the heck is Rob Bell? lol but greg theology of open theim didnt sit to well with me either. but i know he comes hard at reformed theology.
He's real slippery. You gotta keep your eyes peeled for this guy. On a scale of 1 to 10, the discernment required is about a 10. It'll be a good challenge for ya though.
It seems that the only people who object to te criticism of these false teachers are the ones who either don't know what they teach or just don't care about sound, biblical truth.
Wow, that was a completely prejudice statement. There are planty of people "running" away from people like you who LOVE to talk about how right you are, while living in judgement of others in God's name. Truth being that you don't have the answers any more than anyone else, You are god little soldiers following what your preacher told you.
I agree. I seriously doubt the real jesus would scoff at people and be so self righteous. 90 percent of the time it is based off there own insecurity and need to be right. What happened to love the lord you god and love your neighbor as yourself. Perhaps they should make a video about the jugdmental vs emergent church.
@55mpav ~ I think that since you've admitted that you're not a christian, that kind of disqualifies you from the christian arena. If these are true, biblical issues, then on what grounds do you base your knowledge and opinion?
@gtrjunky Ahh your words prove my point. I really hope someday you get it. But I can see this is a waste of my time. Anyway since when do you have to be a christian to hear Gods voice. My entire family is christian and I seek there input. so yeah They DO understand. Have a nice life and I will pray that you find your own peace and let others live in thiers.
@55mpav ~ What you fail to understand is that these very types of issues going on today with false teachers is addressed by the apostles in the bible. Since you don't obviously know much about the bible then your argument is from lack of knowledge. You're speaking about things you know nothing of.
@55mpav ~ What you fail to understand is that these very types of issues going on today with false teachers is addressed by the apostles in the bible. Since you don't obviously know much about the bible then your argument is from lack of knowledge. You're speaking about things you know nothing of.
@gtrjunky Sure why actually debate me on the issues. It is so much easier to call me stupid. Believe me I know the bible. Went to seminary for a year, but decided to make sure christianity was the right choice. People like you do more to convince me it is a religion you have to suit your own needs. And, Remember the way you treat the creation is how you truly feel about the creator. I'm sure everyone can get that.
@55mpav ~ Then you should know that roughly 40% of the New Testament addresses false teachings. This is nothing new and it will continue until Christ's return.
@gtrjunky Yeah I know, but false teachings are a matter of the interpreters perspective. I think people only listen a bit and jump to conclusions without full knowledge of his intent. That is why I said earlier he is one of the few that actually make me want to seek God rather than just take his sermons at face value.
@gtrjunky So that they know to look deeper and not take anyone at face value. I openly question authority to see if it is worth following with everyone who puts themselves to be above me. God says the same thing. He invites us to Know who you love. Refering to himself.
you may enjoy this website It has alot of interviews with him expressing what he really means Wont let me post the link just look for Solar Crash and Rob Bell on the site. Anyway, I have enjoyed our conversatons. Have a great nite. I need to sleep.
@55mpav ~ And you assume that I have "jumped to conclusions" without even asking any information. I have studied Bell's teachings for quite some time and I don't speak from ignorance. My guess is that you just like him and that's all that matters. While people may want to seek the god that he offers, that does not mean it is the God of scripture.
@gtrjunky No not you but many others have. of course I like him. I wouldn't waste all night trying to provide another point of view to others who read you comments if I didn't think that God does use his approach to set people free from the bondage of there sin. Ultimately that is all that matters in the end. But you have absolutely no proof that your view of God is actuallly the correct one either. We really wont know until the end.
@55mpav ~ Actually we can know much about Him. He has given us His word for a reason and that's to reveal Himself. You are starting with the presupposition that we can't know about Him and that's fallacious.
@gtrjunky True, but you have to admit every denomination has there own interpretation of scripture. For example Calvinist vs Penticostals. Yeah we can know about him, his character, what he has done for us on the cross, but his word is to teach us not only about him but more importantly to have a relationship with him and to know how he actually works in a persons heart we cant know cause it is such a personal thing.
@gtrjunky Without ancient writings the god of scripture falls silent and undetectable. Stop the printing press and rob him of his power. Such a god must be protected because he tears like the thin pages of a Bible. Book religion turns the logos and rhema of God into paper to be worshipped by Bibliolators. At least Bob Bell's god can be known by his continued interaction with humans, not locked up in a literary fossil from the bronze age.
I've read all your comments and i dont see anywhere you showing Rob Bell to be a false teacher. This video is bogus and he believes in Authoratative scripture. I'm interested in exactly what makes you so against him I've only heard of Rob Bell today so please inform me....
No I agree its a bogus video cause it is a non christian attitude. Anyway they probably hate him because so many of us sinners love him. If there message was so good they would really have little time or need to make it seem better by putting others down. its just like Grade school all over again. All I want to know is what type of baptist are they.
@55mpav ~ What you fail to understand is that these very types of issues going on today with false teachers is addressed by the apostles in the bible. Since you don't obviously know much about the bible then your argument is from lack of knowledge. You're speaking about things you know nothing of.
What you are not getting is that these two don't have to mutually exclusive. The authors of the new testament were writing to specific audiences. They were not just simply writing down truth and then saying "ok here you this will be used by the world from now on as scripture" Is it heretical to say that they in writing these letters they had the authority of God much like a pastor does when he delivers a sermon. Then later God inspired the people who canonized the Bible. Make sense?
That was Robs whole point in saying the bible was a "human product". So im really glad that you agree with him that the Bible was written by humans who had certain agendas who were writing to a specific group of people in history. Im glad we got that straightened out and you can stop calling Rob a heretic because that is exactly what he teaches. Not that the Bible is not inspired like your video says.
1 Cor 7:12 specifically says it is Paul writing and not the Lord. So it has to be possible for the Holy Spirit to be moving through Paul even though Paul admits its just him giving advise. So the Bible can be "inspired" and still be a "human" product. Paul's letters where meant to be just that.: letters from him to the different churches.
You see RB's little aliance with Phyllis Tickle and her "announcement" that Sola Scriptura is "coming to an end", then that says quite a bit about his view of the bible.
This "new reformation" is nothing more than a figment of her imagination.
It doesn't mean that Paul's letters didn't carry authority as many of them were quickly affirmed by others such as Peter as "scriptures" but in my opinion it is highly doubtful that the Holy Spirit literally told him or physically moved him. I am sure God led Paul to write to the different churches but He didn't do it for him. Therefore we can say that the holy scriptures are both inspired and a human product.
For those who want to know what Rob actually says without all the incredible bias
"I affirm the historic Christian faith, which includes the virgin birth and the Trinity and the inspiration of the Bible and much more" (p 27 Velvet Elvis).
I have read that book and I don't feel that his statement is very genuine. It contradicts his statement from his original interview from Christianity Today magazine, stating that the bible is a human product.
I understand that is how you feel but you do realize it is a little silly to hold so strongly onto one quote and completely throw out another just because it contradicts what you want people to think of Rob. I will do my best to explain it to you if you would like me to but Rob is very consistent with saying he affirms everything the Bible affirms and that it is the inspired word of God. Im just curious what do you do with 1 Corinth 7:10? Inspired or no?
these are some of the worst strawman arguments i've seen. has Rob Bell denied divine inspiration in Scripture? has he denied Hell as an actual place? i'd like to see a quote where either of these are affirmed.
also, interestingly enough, C.S. Lewis taught that the Gospel is shown through pagan myth.
You know, Rob Bell isn't even worthy to called a heretic. At least real heretics have the courage to right out and say what they believe. Bell is such a soineless coward he can't be clear about anything.
These are not "strawmen"...it's calling a spade, a spade!
......Its rather evidence that they are a loving person. So too, if God is love (1 John 4:8) we should expect God to lovingly respond to people's situations. He is not stuck in eternal sameness. He is lovingly achieving his unchanging plan, by adapting to our changing circumstances (Jeremiah 18).
I think we demand too much of Malachi's statement when we claim it suggests nothing about God changes. Comparing it to other passages... how do you explain "God became man". It's a change, no?
This dialogue has been helpful for me in questioning my views, I hope that you can see that I am honestly trying to discern truth from the Bible, I love Jesus and want to honour him.
But I can't accept your view that all circumstances are ordained by God. How is our sin ordained by God? It doesn't make any sense to me, and I can't see it in the Bible. The Bible is clear that sin is down to us. Rather than sin being a product of God's will, it is a rejection of his perfect will.
My only advice to you is this: Don't find yourself guilty of minimizing God or bringing Him down to our level. You will have to give an account for that some day, especially if yu teach others likewise.
God can use sinful creatures to carry out His perfect will and still remain sinless Himself. We act in accordance to our true desires and God uses that.
Wow, gtrjunky. It is nice to see that you have your own cyber-stalker/harasser. It is interesting that people would draw from all sorts of sources which are completely unbiblical in order to interpret the bible in a way that allows them to see God in what ever manner they choose. I do recall reading verses about god being changeable... I think it was in the book of Maccabees... in the BOOK OF MORMON! Ah well, let him eat cake.
That's why Rob Bell's ideas and sunday morning myths are so convoluted. They import all these outside "ideas" and try and shove them into the scriptures. I believe it was Peter who talked about men "twisting the scriptures to their own destruction". They'll say anything to lower God and elevate man.
I have used the Bible to justify my view. gtrjunky has ducked when I've done this other than a weak claim that "changing his mind" is anthropomorphic. Come on, let's use the Bible to debate this, what does Jeremiah 18:6-10 teach us if it is not that God perfectly responds to our changing situations and attitudes?
It would be good too if you could tell me which extra-Biblical sources I used... it's a strange accusation because I looked back and I can't find any.
I said I disagree, not using him to support my views... I am arguing that people have grafted a lot of his philosophy into Christian thought (Augustine was particularly influenced by him). I'm not using Plato to back up my point, I'm saying hew was wrong because he's not Biblical.
Ex 32:14 - Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
1 Sam 15:35b "And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel."
Or what about the book of Jonah?
The open theist can affirm that the Bible's account is faithful in all of these, I am not sure where I stand, but I applaud Boyd's conviction to adhere strictly to Biblical truth
Well applaud all you want. The bottom line is that the open theists are bringing God down to man's level; not to "better understand Him, but to justify the sovereignty of man and his supposed "free will".
I assume you're replying to the "change the past" comment.
No there aren't which is why I ask... if God was outside of time then the past would be changeable too. Is it limiting his omnipotence to say he can't change the past?
In the same way I submit it is not denying his omniscience to say he doesn't exhaustively know the future (although he obviously knows what he has planned to acheive due to his omniscience and omnipotence)
you're very good at not responding to my questions. Time is the medium through which God relates to us, there is no reason to imagine God is at work in the past or the future, so it doesn't limit God in any way to suggest that the reality that God works in is our timescale. The view that God is outside of time is not Biblical anyway, it's Hellenistic and it's mainly down to Augustine's reading of Plato that it's deeply ingrained in our modern theology
As I said, that's pure speculation. And no it's perfectly reasonable to see that God is outside of time because He is without beginning and has no end. You can set that other stuff aside. Time is God's creation. It's right there in Genesis.
Yes he has no beginning and no end... but the Bible also tells us that God "became" man. That Christ "became" sin for us. That Christ "sent" the Spirit. Suggesting that there is a before and after for God. He died on the cross, but is not dead now! There is immense Biblical support for this view. It's a Platonic not Biblical idea that a necessary feature of perfection is "changelessness". The God of the Bible perfectly changes in response to his people. This is not an imperfection.
Dude, you really need to stop drinking from whatever polluted well it is you're drinking from. Your silly little "theory" that you keep bringing up doesn't hold enough water to fill a gnat's navel. You would do well to just read the bible.
We know that there are times when God does change his mind in response to prayer and repentance (see Jer 18:610; Jon. 4:2; Joel 2:1213).
In the context of this verse God is teaching the Israelites that he would have destroyed them because of their sin, if it were not for his steadfast character and covenantal integrity. God is always good and always faithful... this is the sense in which he does not change. The verses above show he is also perfectly responsive to our changing circumstances.
Time is not contingent on the movement of planets and suns, it is not contradictory or limiting at all to believe that God lives one moment after another. Every verb ascribed to God in the Bible including the teaching that God responds to prayer, is affected by the world, and that he became a human being contradicts this timeless, utterly unchanging conception of God. The whole Bible narrative presupposes that God has a real before and after.
If God responds to prayer the way you think, then why aren't all prayers answered? Or does God only respond to the ones that are in accordance with His will?
I believe he answers all prayers... but not always affirmatively. I don't think it's possible to ascribe a formula to how prayers are answered, the Bible uses a lot of reasons why prayers are and aren't answered. God's will, God's timing, man's faith, demonic influence are all at work, amongst other things too. Check out Dan. 10, he prayed, God answered, but a demon held up the angel bringing the message, that didn't seem to be God's will, there's lots more at work in the world than we know.
I didn't say anything about ascribing any formulas. God answers prayers in accordance to His will. The fact that God does not change is a truth statement within the context of of the passage (Malachi 3)
I can make a truth claim within a statement that goes beyond the scope of the particular issue at hand.
Example: If I'm discussing partial birth abortion and I say; "I am against abortion", my statement is not allocated to just "partial birth"; t goes beyond that to all forms of abortion.
I agree God answers all prayers according to his will (he certainly doesn't do anything that is against his will!), but Daniel 10, and Jesus partially healing the blind man for example suggest God's will can be frustrated. What is sin if it is not opposition to God's will?
There are types of change that are not just compatible with perfection, but required by it. For example, if one person changes their mood in response to someone's suffering, it is not an imperfection......
Dude, you are imposing your presuppositions onto the text. Read Job. Satan could do NOTHING without God's permission. God allowed Daniel's prayer answer to be delayed for a reason.
As far as Jesus partial healing...Jesus was teaching an object lesson. Read the surrounding passages. It's about "seeing clearly". That is the theme that's going on there. The text in NO WAY reflects that God's will can be "frustrated". As I said, you need to read your bible and put your other stuff aside.
There's nothing to suggest God himself delayed the prayer in Daniel 10, and similarly in Job there is a big difference between God allowing the satan access to Job and God ordaining every trial Job went through. As I said in the other post I just did I think there's enough in the Bible to suggest evil is a result of a rejection of God's will and not of God's will itself.
There is everything to suggest it. God could have certainly told Daniel Himself but for whatever reason did not. Again, it seems you want to impose your ideas into the text. Have read the entire bible? It screams from genesis to revelation of God's complete sovereignty over ALL things. Are you trying to suggest that there are things that catch Him by surprise? Of course, or else why would you so warmly embrace this heresy of open theism.
The bible uses anthropomorphic language all over the place. From man's perspective things seem as though God changes His mind...at least His direction.
If God doesnt actually change his mind, then what do the passages that explicitly declare that he does change his mind mean? Saying theyre anthropomorphic doesnt help us, for anthropomorphic expressions, if theyre true, must still communicate something accurate about God. Saying God has a strong arm, communicates that God is strong even though he doesnt literally have arms. But what does it mean to say God changes his mind if God doesnt change his mind? This is simply inaccurate.
No it's not at all. An eternal God speaking eternal matters to finite people. Makes sense to me. The bible also talks about the sun rising and going down, yet we know this isn't true. It's just God speaking to us in a way we can understand.
Ok, but the Bible isn't a science textbook, it is what tells us about God. To me an inaccuracy about science is fine as it is trying to communicate another more important truth (God's control over the cosmos for example).
How can an inaccuracy about God lead to a greater understanding of God? It doesn't make any sense to say he changes his mind if that isn't actually what happened. It would be clearer if it said "he decided this would happen and it did" if that was actually the case.
I find it ironic that the postmodern, liberal, emergent types use the battle cry; "you can't put God in a box", yet that's exactly what open theism does.
I don't really see the relevance of this comment... what box exactly does it put him in? It ascribes to God a greater knowledge and intelligence than any deterministic worldview could. It enables people to believe that prayer actually is powerful and effective as the Bible tells us. It also leaves man totally responsible for sin and depravity, unlike deterministic views which can be interpreted to give God responsibility for sin.
Well the bible teaches that God is very much deterministic. That's why it uses wordslike "predestined" and "elect" and "chosen". The problem is, that man wants his share of the glory for making a "wise decision".
He has determined some things, other things he leaves up to us, that's why things are so screwed up. If God's will was the only will there wouldn't be sin. Our will and Satan's will has corrupted things. Yeah God did some choosing and predestined that those who chose him would be saved, but that in no way suggests the future is exhaustively determined. The Bible never makes that claim.
This is total nonsense. I'm not going to give you the dignity of looking at all the errors here. Just one... Greg Boyd affirms God's omniscience unequivocally, and to say he doesn't is either a deliberate twist of his theology or you just haven't read it. Either way it is not Christlike to misrepresent someone without having looked properly at his teaching.
You are ridiculous. Could you imagine Christ making a stupid video like this?
"I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God is absolutely all knowing. There is no difference in my understanding of Gods omniscience and that of any other classical theologian" - Greg Boyd
He believes God knows everything there is to know about reality. But instead of the future being definite, God knows it as a sea of possibilities, so it is not a misrepresentation of the character of God, but a different view to yours on the reality which God knows. He perfectly knows every possible future event, so is never surprised. This is based on an honest reading of Scripture, which often presents the future as open.
Well you can dress it up all you want. Just because you put hot fudge on crap, doesn't make it a sundae. Boyd's god is nt the omnicient God of the bible. It is an attack and misrepresentation of the God of scripture. Not "my interpretation".
it realy is amazing how bad they twist the bible, and try and make it fit there life styl, instead of changing there life styl to comform to the bible, it realy is amazing that people will believe in these Emergent "Doctrines
The liberals in the church keep trying but God is still on His throne. When redefining the faith fails as a godless tactic, they press on to blatant denial. God holds them in derision. Kiss the Son lest He be angry. What is distrurbing is they try to pawn themselves off as Christians.
@swplan76 ...so what's the difference between an unbeliever and a Christian? One HUGE thing: Christians have an advocate standing before God, namely Jesus Christ. We are justified NOT because we have done anything or deserved it in any way, but because Christ justified us, and through faith we receive it. Both Christians and unbelievers are flesh and blood, they both suffer from illness and disease, they both sin, they both doubt...but Christians are forgiven, and God wants that for all.
vicardaniel 10 months ago
@swplan76 And what WAS Jesus like? Does anyone know, outside of what Scripture says? More importantly though: Christians are sinners too! I don't know ONE 'perfect' Christian! And when you start pointing your finger at all the imperfect Christians who don't "reflect the love of Jesus", you show your lack of understanding toward what the faith is all about. Christian's aren't better, holier, more perfect than unbelievers. There are sinners in the church everywhere, so get used to it...
vicardaniel 10 months ago
@gtrjunky your welcome. As Jack Nicholson once said to Tom Cruise, "Some people just can't handle the truth!"
thesacredcowtipper 11 months ago
@gtrjunky Amen bro.
thesacredcowtipper 11 months ago
@swplan76 The "love" that I don't reflect is your definition, not the bible's. What sucks about trying to discuss these things with you post moderns is that as soon as your fallacious thinking is exposed, you cry "foul" or say "you're being mean" and you grab your toys and go home.
gtrjunky 1 year ago 2
@swplan76 I realize that it's taboo to "dare" tell anyone that they're "wrong" in this generation and that is why you label me as being mean. If you can't support your own argumentation then you shouldn't have opened up the dialogue. I hope you come to gips with your fallacious thinking.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@swplan76 In addition, I AM NOT going to watch a Rob Bell video to find support for this. Unless what he says is backed by sound exegetical, biblical sources I'll file away with the rest of his rubbish. I have read and listened to far enough of his ideas to need to hear anymore. Rob Bell rolls and smokes his own theology and does things to scripture that nobody in church history has done.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@swplan76 Yes it is sad that I had to tell you you're a hypocrite, I wish you weren't. The reason you are one is because you like to cast doubt on absolute truth by using absolute truth claims. So in other woeds, when someone uses the sure word of God to knock down bad theology, you post moderns want to cast doubt about what truth is by making a truth claim. Voila! You're a hypocrite and don't even know it.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
Hey, search rob bell marker in youtube and watch the video.
swplan76 1 year ago
@swplan76 How can you appeal to truth as being "both/and" and then conclude with a definative statement that "being right is not a Jesus teaching". This is exactly the type of hypocritical "thinking" that results from this movement.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
Rob Bell is a Catholic Priest
pittedthighs 1 year ago
I like this video lol
john17v17 1 year ago
These statements are no where near what Rob Bell stands for....
gilbert4321 1 year ago
@gilbert4321 Hmmm, I guess you've never read any of his books or listened to any of his "sermons".
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky You should actually watch his videos instead of reading what people say about his videos.
gilbert4321 1 year ago
@gilbert4321 I have, and I've read 1 of his books and listened to dozens of his "sermons".
gtrjunky 1 year ago
Comment removed
gilbert4321 1 year ago
LOL!! LOL!!! Way to go Brother! What a great way to expose 'Emerging Church' balderdash!!
RefutingSkellyism 1 year ago
@RefutingSkellyism Indeed, Balderdash is very fitting.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
"John MacArthur voodoo doll"-that cracks me up! Bet he would be flattered if the emergent church really hated him that much!
snowleopard205 1 year ago
I lol'd! such a brilliant inrony of the way youtube comments make stuff and attribute it to others. Oh wait, it's you gtrjunkie - as you were :p
mikeyjnz 1 year ago
@mikeyjnz I just wish there was a way of filtering out the incohesive thoughts and unbiblical argumentation of the "Bell" worshipers on here.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Oh but it does have a way of filtering them out, I'm sure that there were thousands of people posting 'bell is lord' but thankfully, youtube filtering has prevailed. You're awesome by they way, What do you think of Westboro Baptist? I'm intrigued to know
mikeyjnz 1 year ago
His voice is SO much less annoying than the actual Rob Bell.
spit316 1 year ago
@spit316 =)
gtrjunky 1 year ago
Very very sad video. Someone needs to get out more ...
karlmalcolm 1 year ago
@karlmalcolm What's really sad is that these wolves in sheeps clothing actually teach these things and the people who follow them believe it.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
B, you had me cracking up on this one homie. hey man greg boyd said that? wow? and who the heck is Rob Bell? lol but greg theology of open theim didnt sit to well with me either. but i know he comes hard at reformed theology.
soulja4hova 2 years ago
Rob Bell is the messiah with many Liberty students. I'm surprised you haven't heard of him. His "Nooma" videos are really popular.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
no man, never heard of that guy. nooma? dang guess im slipping. going to check him out when i get some time
soulja4hova 2 years ago
He's real slippery. You gotta keep your eyes peeled for this guy. On a scale of 1 to 10, the discernment required is about a 10. It'll be a good challenge for ya though.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
haha, this is corny but it's hilarious.
Apeleutheros80 2 years ago
This Video is so stupid gtrjunky. Honestly.
4everkop 2 years ago
Why? Because you don't like it?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
It seems that the only people who object to te criticism of these false teachers are the ones who either don't know what they teach or just don't care about sound, biblical truth.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Wow, that was a completely prejudice statement. There are planty of people "running" away from people like you who LOVE to talk about how right you are, while living in judgement of others in God's name. Truth being that you don't have the answers any more than anyone else, You are god little soldiers following what your preacher told you.
mydrju 2 years ago
I agree. I seriously doubt the real jesus would scoff at people and be so self righteous. 90 percent of the time it is based off there own insecurity and need to be right. What happened to love the lord you god and love your neighbor as yourself. Perhaps they should make a video about the jugdmental vs emergent church.
55mpav 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ I think that since you've admitted that you're not a christian, that kind of disqualifies you from the christian arena. If these are true, biblical issues, then on what grounds do you base your knowledge and opinion?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Ahh your words prove my point. I really hope someday you get it. But I can see this is a waste of my time. Anyway since when do you have to be a christian to hear Gods voice. My entire family is christian and I seek there input. so yeah They DO understand. Have a nice life and I will pray that you find your own peace and let others live in thiers.
55mpav 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ Get what? You said yourself you're not a christian so how can you speak on these matters.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ What you fail to understand is that these very types of issues going on today with false teachers is addressed by the apostles in the bible. Since you don't obviously know much about the bible then your argument is from lack of knowledge. You're speaking about things you know nothing of.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ What you fail to understand is that these very types of issues going on today with false teachers is addressed by the apostles in the bible. Since you don't obviously know much about the bible then your argument is from lack of knowledge. You're speaking about things you know nothing of.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Sure why actually debate me on the issues. It is so much easier to call me stupid. Believe me I know the bible. Went to seminary for a year, but decided to make sure christianity was the right choice. People like you do more to convince me it is a religion you have to suit your own needs. And, Remember the way you treat the creation is how you truly feel about the creator. I'm sure everyone can get that.
55mpav 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ Then you should know that roughly 40% of the New Testament addresses false teachings. This is nothing new and it will continue until Christ's return.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Yeah I know, but false teachings are a matter of the interpreters perspective. I think people only listen a bit and jump to conclusions without full knowledge of his intent. That is why I said earlier he is one of the few that actually make me want to seek God rather than just take his sermons at face value.
55mpav 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ OK, then why warn people?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky So that they know to look deeper and not take anyone at face value. I openly question authority to see if it is worth following with everyone who puts themselves to be above me. God says the same thing. He invites us to Know who you love. Refering to himself.
55mpav 1 year ago
you may enjoy this website It has alot of interviews with him expressing what he really means Wont let me post the link just look for Solar Crash and Rob Bell on the site. Anyway, I have enjoyed our conversatons. Have a great nite. I need to sleep.
55mpav 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ God bless. I hope we can chat some more. I appreciate you civility.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Yeah me too. and Go Duke!! Sorry I went there and half the team seems to be christian and humble about how good they are.
55mpav 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ And you assume that I have "jumped to conclusions" without even asking any information. I have studied Bell's teachings for quite some time and I don't speak from ignorance. My guess is that you just like him and that's all that matters. While people may want to seek the god that he offers, that does not mean it is the God of scripture.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky No not you but many others have. of course I like him. I wouldn't waste all night trying to provide another point of view to others who read you comments if I didn't think that God does use his approach to set people free from the bondage of there sin. Ultimately that is all that matters in the end. But you have absolutely no proof that your view of God is actuallly the correct one either. We really wont know until the end.
55mpav 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ Actually we can know much about Him. He has given us His word for a reason and that's to reveal Himself. You are starting with the presupposition that we can't know about Him and that's fallacious.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
@gtrjunky True, but you have to admit every denomination has there own interpretation of scripture. For example Calvinist vs Penticostals. Yeah we can know about him, his character, what he has done for us on the cross, but his word is to teach us not only about him but more importantly to have a relationship with him and to know how he actually works in a persons heart we cant know cause it is such a personal thing.
55mpav 1 year ago
@gtrjunky Without ancient writings the god of scripture falls silent and undetectable. Stop the printing press and rob him of his power. Such a god must be protected because he tears like the thin pages of a Bible. Book religion turns the logos and rhema of God into paper to be worshipped by Bibliolators. At least Bob Bell's god can be known by his continued interaction with humans, not locked up in a literary fossil from the bronze age.
MySocksSmell2 1 year ago
@MySocksSmell2 Well that all sounds very "deep" and "philosophical" but my question to you is...by what authority do you make these claims?
gtrjunky 1 year ago
I've read all your comments and i dont see anywhere you showing Rob Bell to be a false teacher. This video is bogus and he believes in Authoratative scripture. I'm interested in exactly what makes you so against him I've only heard of Rob Bell today so please inform me....
peterdonato 2 years ago
If you've only heard of him today, then how do you know these claims are bogus?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
No I agree its a bogus video cause it is a non christian attitude. Anyway they probably hate him because so many of us sinners love him. If there message was so good they would really have little time or need to make it seem better by putting others down. its just like Grade school all over again. All I want to know is what type of baptist are they.
55mpav 1 year ago
@55mpav ~ What you fail to understand is that these very types of issues going on today with false teachers is addressed by the apostles in the bible. Since you don't obviously know much about the bible then your argument is from lack of knowledge. You're speaking about things you know nothing of.
gtrjunky 1 year ago
What you are not getting is that these two don't have to mutually exclusive. The authors of the new testament were writing to specific audiences. They were not just simply writing down truth and then saying "ok here you this will be used by the world from now on as scripture" Is it heretical to say that they in writing these letters they had the authority of God much like a pastor does when he delivers a sermon. Then later God inspired the people who canonized the Bible. Make sense?
Jgarrisn121 2 years ago
So they were writing to specific audiences...so what??? Does that negate applicable truth that applies to us today?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Where do you get your information? Who said it's "heretical" to say that the writings of the apostles had the authority from God????
gtrjunky 2 years ago
That was Robs whole point in saying the bible was a "human product". So im really glad that you agree with him that the Bible was written by humans who had certain agendas who were writing to a specific group of people in history. Im glad we got that straightened out and you can stop calling Rob a heretic because that is exactly what he teaches. Not that the Bible is not inspired like your video says.
Jgarrisn121 2 years ago
Way to twist someone's words. Perhaps you should be on staff at Marshill. I never said a word about "agendas"
The word "inspired" as used in the NT greek means "God breathed". So men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
So it looks like we don't have anything "straight"...at least on your end.
BTW, I like how you were able to read all of that into what he said. I guess that's how you "exegete" Rob Bell.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
ALL of scripture is God breathed correct? Yes.
1 Cor 7:12 specifically says it is Paul writing and not the Lord. So it has to be possible for the Holy Spirit to be moving through Paul even though Paul admits its just him giving advise. So the Bible can be "inspired" and still be a "human" product. Paul's letters where meant to be just that.: letters from him to the different churches.
Jgarrisn121 2 years ago
Then they're not the product of man but of God. Pretty simple.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
You see RB's little aliance with Phyllis Tickle and her "announcement" that Sola Scriptura is "coming to an end", then that says quite a bit about his view of the bible.
This "new reformation" is nothing more than a figment of her imagination.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
It doesn't mean that Paul's letters didn't carry authority as many of them were quickly affirmed by others such as Peter as "scriptures" but in my opinion it is highly doubtful that the Holy Spirit literally told him or physically moved him. I am sure God led Paul to write to the different churches but He didn't do it for him. Therefore we can say that the holy scriptures are both inspired and a human product.
Jgarrisn121 2 years ago
For those who want to know what Rob actually says without all the incredible bias
"I affirm the historic Christian faith, which includes the virgin birth and the Trinity and the inspiration of the Bible and much more" (p 27 Velvet Elvis).
Jgarrisn121 2 years ago
I have read that book and I don't feel that his statement is very genuine. It contradicts his statement from his original interview from Christianity Today magazine, stating that the bible is a human product.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
I understand that is how you feel but you do realize it is a little silly to hold so strongly onto one quote and completely throw out another just because it contradicts what you want people to think of Rob. I will do my best to explain it to you if you would like me to but Rob is very consistent with saying he affirms everything the Bible affirms and that it is the inspired word of God. Im just curious what do you do with 1 Corinth 7:10? Inspired or no?
Jgarrisn121 2 years ago
and oops i actually meant 1 Corint 7:12 sorry about that.
Jgarrisn121 2 years ago
No it's not "silly". That "one quote" launched my research into the rest of his bad teachings.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
these are some of the worst strawman arguments i've seen. has Rob Bell denied divine inspiration in Scripture? has he denied Hell as an actual place? i'd like to see a quote where either of these are affirmed.
also, interestingly enough, C.S. Lewis taught that the Gospel is shown through pagan myth.
toad687 2 years ago
You know, Rob Bell isn't even worthy to called a heretic. At least real heretics have the courage to right out and say what they believe. Bell is such a soineless coward he can't be clear about anything.
These are not "strawmen"...it's calling a spade, a spade!
gtrjunky 2 years ago
thank you for not responding to any of the points i made.
toad687 2 years ago
......Its rather evidence that they are a loving person. So too, if God is love (1 John 4:8) we should expect God to lovingly respond to people's situations. He is not stuck in eternal sameness. He is lovingly achieving his unchanging plan, by adapting to our changing circumstances (Jeremiah 18).
I think we demand too much of Malachi's statement when we claim it suggests nothing about God changes. Comparing it to other passages... how do you explain "God became man". It's a change, no?
weightofglory 2 years ago
As far as Jesus becoming a man...He never ceased to be fully God. Remeber, "equality with God" is not something to be grasped. (Phil.2:6)
You assume that God is "adapting to our circumstances" rather than seeing that our circumstances are by His ordination.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
This dialogue has been helpful for me in questioning my views, I hope that you can see that I am honestly trying to discern truth from the Bible, I love Jesus and want to honour him.
But I can't accept your view that all circumstances are ordained by God. How is our sin ordained by God? It doesn't make any sense to me, and I can't see it in the Bible. The Bible is clear that sin is down to us. Rather than sin being a product of God's will, it is a rejection of his perfect will.
weightofglory 2 years ago
My only advice to you is this: Don't find yourself guilty of minimizing God or bringing Him down to our level. You will have to give an account for that some day, especially if yu teach others likewise.
God can use sinful creatures to carry out His perfect will and still remain sinless Himself. We act in accordance to our true desires and God uses that.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Wow, gtrjunky. It is nice to see that you have your own cyber-stalker/harasser. It is interesting that people would draw from all sorts of sources which are completely unbiblical in order to interpret the bible in a way that allows them to see God in what ever manner they choose. I do recall reading verses about god being changeable... I think it was in the book of Maccabees... in the BOOK OF MORMON! Ah well, let him eat cake.
micahxmp 2 years ago
That's why Rob Bell's ideas and sunday morning myths are so convoluted. They import all these outside "ideas" and try and shove them into the scriptures. I believe it was Peter who talked about men "twisting the scriptures to their own destruction". They'll say anything to lower God and elevate man.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
I have used the Bible to justify my view. gtrjunky has ducked when I've done this other than a weak claim that "changing his mind" is anthropomorphic. Come on, let's use the Bible to debate this, what does Jeremiah 18:6-10 teach us if it is not that God perfectly responds to our changing situations and attitudes?
It would be good too if you could tell me which extra-Biblical sources I used... it's a strange accusation because I looked back and I can't find any.
weightofglory 2 years ago
Well, we can start with your stupid "platonic" crap.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
I said I disagree, not using him to support my views... I am arguing that people have grafted a lot of his philosophy into Christian thought (Augustine was particularly influenced by him). I'm not using Plato to back up my point, I'm saying hew was wrong because he's not Biblical.
weightofglory 2 years ago
Boyd would read the following verses literally:
Ex 32:14 - Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
1 Sam 15:35b "And the LORD was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel."
Or what about the book of Jonah?
The open theist can affirm that the Bible's account is faithful in all of these, I am not sure where I stand, but I applaud Boyd's conviction to adhere strictly to Biblical truth
weightofglory 2 years ago
Well applaud all you want. The bottom line is that the open theists are bringing God down to man's level; not to "better understand Him, but to justify the sovereignty of man and his supposed "free will".
gtrjunky 2 years ago
How do you interpret those texts then?Boyd is not reading into them something that's not there, it says God changes his mind, relents etc...
The Bible from start to front emphasises man's free will, and what does the cross if not that man has gone against God by his own volition?
weightofglory 2 years ago
*and when I say start to front i mean start to finish
weightofglory 2 years ago
You see, if God is subject to time; which is what this "view" boils down to; then God is subject to His own creation and thus is not All powerful.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
So do you believe God can change the past?
weightofglory 2 years ago
Are there any examples of this in scripture?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
I assume you're replying to the "change the past" comment.
No there aren't which is why I ask... if God was outside of time then the past would be changeable too. Is it limiting his omnipotence to say he can't change the past?
In the same way I submit it is not denying his omniscience to say he doesn't exhaustively know the future (although he obviously knows what he has planned to acheive due to his omniscience and omnipotence)
weightofglory 2 years ago
You are entering into the realm of speculation. Time is God's creation.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
you're very good at not responding to my questions. Time is the medium through which God relates to us, there is no reason to imagine God is at work in the past or the future, so it doesn't limit God in any way to suggest that the reality that God works in is our timescale. The view that God is outside of time is not Biblical anyway, it's Hellenistic and it's mainly down to Augustine's reading of Plato that it's deeply ingrained in our modern theology
weightofglory 2 years ago
As I said, that's pure speculation. And no it's perfectly reasonable to see that God is outside of time because He is without beginning and has no end. You can set that other stuff aside. Time is God's creation. It's right there in Genesis.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Yes he has no beginning and no end... but the Bible also tells us that God "became" man. That Christ "became" sin for us. That Christ "sent" the Spirit. Suggesting that there is a before and after for God. He died on the cross, but is not dead now! There is immense Biblical support for this view. It's a Platonic not Biblical idea that a necessary feature of perfection is "changelessness". The God of the Bible perfectly changes in response to his people. This is not an imperfection.
weightofglory 2 years ago
Dude, you really need to stop drinking from whatever polluted well it is you're drinking from. Your silly little "theory" that you keep bringing up doesn't hold enough water to fill a gnat's navel. You would do well to just read the bible.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
"For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. ~Malachi 3:6
I guess Malachi read "Plato" too.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
We know that there are times when God does change his mind in response to prayer and repentance (see Jer 18:610; Jon. 4:2; Joel 2:1213).
In the context of this verse God is teaching the Israelites that he would have destroyed them because of their sin, if it were not for his steadfast character and covenantal integrity. God is always good and always faithful... this is the sense in which he does not change. The verses above show he is also perfectly responsive to our changing circumstances.
weightofglory 2 years ago
Once again, we Have the infinite God speaking to finite man. There was no "time" prior to the creation. You know "evening & morning...the first day".
God is without begining and without end. God does not make Himself subject to His own creation?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Time is not contingent on the movement of planets and suns, it is not contradictory or limiting at all to believe that God lives one moment after another. Every verb ascribed to God in the Bible including the teaching that God responds to prayer, is affected by the world, and that he became a human being contradicts this timeless, utterly unchanging conception of God. The whole Bible narrative presupposes that God has a real before and after.
weightofglory 2 years ago
If God responds to prayer the way you think, then why aren't all prayers answered? Or does God only respond to the ones that are in accordance with His will?
gtrjunky 2 years ago
I believe he answers all prayers... but not always affirmatively. I don't think it's possible to ascribe a formula to how prayers are answered, the Bible uses a lot of reasons why prayers are and aren't answered. God's will, God's timing, man's faith, demonic influence are all at work, amongst other things too. Check out Dan. 10, he prayed, God answered, but a demon held up the angel bringing the message, that didn't seem to be God's will, there's lots more at work in the world than we know.
weightofglory 2 years ago
I didn't say anything about ascribing any formulas. God answers prayers in accordance to His will. The fact that God does not change is a truth statement within the context of of the passage (Malachi 3)
I can make a truth claim within a statement that goes beyond the scope of the particular issue at hand.
Example: If I'm discussing partial birth abortion and I say; "I am against abortion", my statement is not allocated to just "partial birth"; t goes beyond that to all forms of abortion.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
I agree God answers all prayers according to his will (he certainly doesn't do anything that is against his will!), but Daniel 10, and Jesus partially healing the blind man for example suggest God's will can be frustrated. What is sin if it is not opposition to God's will?
There are types of change that are not just compatible with perfection, but required by it. For example, if one person changes their mood in response to someone's suffering, it is not an imperfection......
weightofglory 2 years ago
Dude, you are imposing your presuppositions onto the text. Read Job. Satan could do NOTHING without God's permission. God allowed Daniel's prayer answer to be delayed for a reason.
As far as Jesus partial healing...Jesus was teaching an object lesson. Read the surrounding passages. It's about "seeing clearly". That is the theme that's going on there. The text in NO WAY reflects that God's will can be "frustrated". As I said, you need to read your bible and put your other stuff aside.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
There's nothing to suggest God himself delayed the prayer in Daniel 10, and similarly in Job there is a big difference between God allowing the satan access to Job and God ordaining every trial Job went through. As I said in the other post I just did I think there's enough in the Bible to suggest evil is a result of a rejection of God's will and not of God's will itself.
weightofglory 2 years ago
There is everything to suggest it. God could have certainly told Daniel Himself but for whatever reason did not. Again, it seems you want to impose your ideas into the text. Have read the entire bible? It screams from genesis to revelation of God's complete sovereignty over ALL things. Are you trying to suggest that there are things that catch Him by surprise? Of course, or else why would you so warmly embrace this heresy of open theism.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
The bible uses anthropomorphic language all over the place. From man's perspective things seem as though God changes His mind...at least His direction.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
If God doesnt actually change his mind, then what do the passages that explicitly declare that he does change his mind mean? Saying theyre anthropomorphic doesnt help us, for anthropomorphic expressions, if theyre true, must still communicate something accurate about God. Saying God has a strong arm, communicates that God is strong even though he doesnt literally have arms. But what does it mean to say God changes his mind if God doesnt change his mind? This is simply inaccurate.
weightofglory 2 years ago
No it's not at all. An eternal God speaking eternal matters to finite people. Makes sense to me. The bible also talks about the sun rising and going down, yet we know this isn't true. It's just God speaking to us in a way we can understand.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Ok, but the Bible isn't a science textbook, it is what tells us about God. To me an inaccuracy about science is fine as it is trying to communicate another more important truth (God's control over the cosmos for example).
How can an inaccuracy about God lead to a greater understanding of God? It doesn't make any sense to say he changes his mind if that isn't actually what happened. It would be clearer if it said "he decided this would happen and it did" if that was actually the case.
weightofglory 2 years ago
I find it ironic that the postmodern, liberal, emergent types use the battle cry; "you can't put God in a box", yet that's exactly what open theism does.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
I don't really see the relevance of this comment... what box exactly does it put him in? It ascribes to God a greater knowledge and intelligence than any deterministic worldview could. It enables people to believe that prayer actually is powerful and effective as the Bible tells us. It also leaves man totally responsible for sin and depravity, unlike deterministic views which can be interpreted to give God responsibility for sin.
weightofglory 2 years ago
Well the bible teaches that God is very much deterministic. That's why it uses wordslike "predestined" and "elect" and "chosen". The problem is, that man wants his share of the glory for making a "wise decision".
gtrjunky 2 years ago
He has determined some things, other things he leaves up to us, that's why things are so screwed up. If God's will was the only will there wouldn't be sin. Our will and Satan's will has corrupted things. Yeah God did some choosing and predestined that those who chose him would be saved, but that in no way suggests the future is exhaustively determined. The Bible never makes that claim.
weightofglory 2 years ago
This is total nonsense. I'm not going to give you the dignity of looking at all the errors here. Just one... Greg Boyd affirms God's omniscience unequivocally, and to say he doesn't is either a deliberate twist of his theology or you just haven't read it. Either way it is not Christlike to misrepresent someone without having looked properly at his teaching.
You are ridiculous. Could you imagine Christ making a stupid video like this?
weightofglory 2 years ago
"I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God is absolutely all knowing. There is no difference in my understanding of Gods omniscience and that of any other classical theologian" - Greg Boyd
weightofglory 2 years ago
That's a "lovely" but dishonest quote. Boyd teaches "open theism".
It is not "Christlike" to misrepresent God!
Nuff said!!!
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Not really "nuff said" because you didn't explain where Boyd denies God's omniscience...
weightofglory 2 years ago
Hmmm... OPEN THEISM????
As I said, that is a dishonest statement. He shades the truth just like the devil himself.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
writing open theism in capital letters doesn't shed any more light on your criticism. You still haven't shown me where he denies God's omniscience
weightofglory 2 years ago
Why don't you stop playing coy!
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Let's apply Boyd's definition of "omniscience".
God knows everything...just not until it happens.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
That's a poor caricature of what he believes.
He believes God knows everything there is to know about reality. But instead of the future being definite, God knows it as a sea of possibilities, so it is not a misrepresentation of the character of God, but a different view to yours on the reality which God knows. He perfectly knows every possible future event, so is never surprised. This is based on an honest reading of Scripture, which often presents the future as open.
weightofglory 2 years ago
Well you can dress it up all you want. Just because you put hot fudge on crap, doesn't make it a sundae. Boyd's god is nt the omnicient God of the bible. It is an attack and misrepresentation of the God of scripture. Not "my interpretation".
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Emergent church, the road back to Rome.
thorpypoo 2 years ago
That about sums it up!
megatruth45 2 years ago
it realy is amazing how bad they twist the bible, and try and make it fit there life styl, instead of changing there life styl to comform to the bible, it realy is amazing that people will believe in these Emergent "Doctrines
thx for this vid
greatestgiftis 2 years ago
These things are not fabricated either. This is just a mixture of things spoken by these people. Very scary.
gtrjunky 2 years ago
Really funny!
msb0000 2 years ago
The liberals in the church keep trying but God is still on His throne. When redefining the faith fails as a godless tactic, they press on to blatant denial. God holds them in derision. Kiss the Son lest He be angry. What is distrurbing is they try to pawn themselves off as Christians.
Great satire! God bless you:D
Blogrich55 2 years ago
Hilarious! And sadly...TRUE!!
lotsacoffee 2 years ago
LOL!!! EXCELLENT!
God bless!
KarensFaith 2 years ago