@an824710 It's because the bible was not written in English and there is debate over whether the original Greek and Hebrew words meant "forever and ever" (what does that mean anyway) or "eternal". Google olam and aion and search for yourself.
If the Bible says ''eternal'' and ''forever and ever'' ''lake of fire'' then it has to be true. I don't understand . I'm confused why there is a debate if it is written in the Bible...''forever and ever'' ''no rest day or night''.
"...the hundreds and hundreds of books I ever read" [...] "butchering God's word"!! Who are you? Why is this a struggle?? Why do you sound like you are about to cry?? BTW Coloring books don't count, dude.
Does the sun exist? Is gravity a law? Does the Pope live in the Vatican? Are the monsters under my bed real? Why aren't the important questions debated? We demand real answers to these questions they are of the outmost importance.
@Legomyegoorj Thanks for the clarification, and for missing the point, or maybe not, maybe you got it. In any case, my comment pointed the fact that theology has to wrestle with its own logic, change the meaning of words, retract from the Old Testament, etc to explain anything that make some sense, while most other explanations about forces, facts, and events don't require debate but something as simple as observation.
I am glad that the universe doesn't need this guy's monster. Natural processes are capable of creating everything and no god is needed. So I'm not going to worry too much about this monster torturing me forever! :D
@changeinjoy I used to be a Christian. My family is a Christian family. And yes, I know that the Bible promises heaven for good Christians. But once you study science and give it a fair chance, you will see that even the most benevolent god is not necessary. Natural processes are capable of creating everything without any god being required.
I've been deeply in love with science since long before I became a Christian. I would say that, if your only use for God was to explain natural events, then it seems to be something quite unlike Christianity that you've rejected.
@changeinjoy Do you accept Astronomy, Biology, Evolution, Genetics, and Geology? If natural processes were able to create life, planets, and stars, then maybe natural processes were able to create the universe too.
However, I don't see any reason to believe that natural processes created the universe. At the very least, concluding that they can is unscientific in that there is no evidence that this is the case. Beyond that, any natural process we can study with science is a part of the universe (and therefore did not create it).
More to the point, there are the not-little, non-scientific questions of the meaning in life and nature of justice.
@changeinjoy I am glad that you at least accept most science. But as for the meaning of life, if there is no god, you can have whatever meaning to life that you want and if it doesn't hurt anyone, no one will stop you. If your chosen purpose helps out people, you will make more friends. And we have a justice system because it helps to keep order in our societies. If we just allowed people to run around murdering, raping, and looting, there would be chaos.
It seems, then, that your alternative to God is not science, but a secular utilitarianism.
Personally, I don't see that something is good simply because it promotes order in society. Nor do I agree that people won't try to stop you if you aren't hurting anyone; history is full of examples to the contrary.
Rather, it is often good for the solidarity of society to persecute minority groups and to declare unjust wars (among other things). I would reject that approach.
@changeinjoy Well there is a balance between science and philosophy. You just have to find it. But whatever is best for our survival, prosperity, advancement, and well being is the best thing to do. And that is what societies usually do.
What of the possibility that religious belief may well be beneficial to society? Would you endorse it, in that case?
What of the evil person who accidentally causes prosperity, or the good person who accidentally causes harm? Is the former actually good and the latter actually evil?
How do you define prosperity? Many think that prosperity must include proximity to some deity. Are they wrong? On what grounds would you claim this?
@changeinjoy Sam Harris talks about how religion might have been good to bring people together. But then, they went too far when they said "Only people in this religion will go to heaven." When they started saying that, the inquisition started not too long afterwards. As for all your questions, you and I oviously think differently. So why did you convert to Christianity anyways? Was it a play on your hopes and fears? That is how they control people.
@LifeIsABigPuzzle I'm aware that we think differently. The point is that morality can't be as simply summed up as an aid to a prosperous society as that.
I'm also aware of Sam Harris' ideas. His theory has no more supporting evidence than he claims that religious beliefs has. By his own terms, we should reject it. He is clearly neither an historian or a theologian.
It seems to me that the New Atheist judgmentalism is just as angry, and unwilling to doubt its own positions, as any fundamentalism.
We deserve this punishment and we cannot understand this because our feeble minds don't understand what God tried to teach Adam. God loves us and is so powerful that his glory and righteousness would destroy us instantly. God does not hate and torment, he makes a daily effort to shield us of his maximum power that would end us. When Jesus said to the soldiers who arrested him, "I am" they were all knocked off their feet. Just his name is enough power to affect our sinful bodies
I respect Rob Bell and have learned a lot of things in growing my faith, but to respond to psychomatry: will people be able to respond to heaven/hell post mortem? If so that means that the Bible left multiple unanswered questions in Revelation. Once people are confronted face to face with that kind of love would they choose heaven or hell? Obviously heaven, unfortunately we don't get to choose. Would it be just and fair to let a killer or thief choose thier own punishment? GOD IS JUST AND FAIR
havent watched all this yet but dont think conway reads very well if he read bells book twice because..he takes bell out of context when he reads page 2. this goes downhill from there. bells primary points in the book seem to be that 1)he believes that people will have the opportunity to respond post mortem and 2) once confronted face to face with that kind of love that no one would choose hell and 3)those who wouldnt choose everlasting life will choose hell.
One thing I love about the way the Church is changing is that some of our leaders have the balls to put their talks on YouTube and allow people to make comments on it.
use your mind, read the book "4 views on hell" by walvoord, crockett, hayes, Pinnock.
the scripture is not clear about the nature of hell or man (immortality). usually a teacher is dogmatic because they uphold their denominations official position/ tradition(s). it is a secondary doctrinal issue.
i was christian 20 years born again..but when i read all the bible i see the madness of this so called god .most dont read any of the old testament . this so called god ....kills a man just for picking up sticks on a sabath ...what hapend to ( you shall not kill ) god kills inocent children babys men and women ,kills fish,he kills thousands ,and says to brake a neck of the donkeys , moses was a murderer read that in exodus 2 vers 11-12 read bible you will soon see what i meen. true love wins
His basics are not strong n whatever he says dont stand anywhere.Jesus himself is God n he has come to save us from the Devil who has stolen mans Identity.
God ultimately looks at a mans heart.it is not our place to judge anyone's salvation.We are only responsible to love, forgive, help and pray for one another. Jesus is so much bigger than who we are. Following him is my only comfort. Jesus teaches you how to love when you can't..and love will cover a multitude of sins...even Jesus said to the harlot "because you loved much,,,, your sins are forgiven"...however one thing is to be noted...she was at His feet worshiping Him.Love is the first step.
I do not believe he is taking it out of context nothing he is say is 'heresy' its in there. Exogesis is a very recent thing... The Yanks don't quite use it to full effect but what their saying is not their own words...
Find these statements where what he is saying is not biblical.
Like several of the comments made by Mr. Conway already, the context is left behind. At 35:35 we hear Mr. Conway expounding on what happens to men after they die that are in 'hell.' He is reading from Revelations 16:9. However, if we follow back to Revelations 16:1 we can read plainly 'where' these judgements are pronounced. v.1 'And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.'
Also Hebrews 6:1-2 Paul lists all the basic foundations of the Christian faith: "1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment"
The word eternal comes from the greek word: aionios. Meaning eternal, for ever, everlasting.
Hebrews never says one single word about Hell. The eternal judgement is NOT GUILTY! That is the verdict that was guaranteed for the sins of the word through the finished work of the cross and shed blood of Jesus Christ. He is the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD - John 1:29. NOT GUILTY! Everyone will be restored to the Father through Christ.
Eternal Judgement refers to the Judgement of God, not to a particular verdict. If it were referring to a verdict it would say "Eternal Salvation". Which is not listed as a key principle of Faith for Christians. Instead "Eternal Judgement" is listed.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 Clearly states only those that believe in him are saved.
"14For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt. 22:14
"13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matt. 7:13-14
Yes. Many more people will die and burn in the fiery pits of Hell for all eternity than will be saved. Which is why Christians should stop arguing about facts that they SHOULD ALREADY KNOW, and save people!!
The narrow road to LIFE - not Heaven and the wide road to DESTRUCTION - not Hell. That is all about THIS LIFE here on the Earth. That has nothing to do with Heaven or Hell.
In Matt. 7:13-14 Life is referring to eternal life, which is life in heaven.
and Destruction if refering to hell. As seen in 2 Thessalonians, the fire's of Hell is described also as an everlasting Destruction.
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
The road that leads to DESTRUCTION - not Hell. Sin destroys marriages, relationships, health, peace, etc etc. The other road is the road to LIFE - not the road to Heaven. Please quit adding to God's word. Please quit changing God's word. Read EXACTLY what it says and DO NOT put words in God's mouth. SHAME ON YOU!
In Matthew 25:46 - the Greek word for punishment is KOLASIS which means corrective discipline - like a father gives his children. It is eternal because it comes from God and has eternal results. They will never need correction again. Please compare the expression "eternal redemption" in Hebrews. So along with ready EXACTLY what it says tyou need to understand EXACTLY what it means.
@UniversalismProven The Greek word Kolasis can mean "punishment" and "penalty", along with "correction." Christ doesn't say anything that suggests "eternal" refers to the result of correction. He also uses the same word for "eternal" to describe the life which the righteous are to receive. It's pretty plain; "Punishment eternal" and "Life eternal."
ETERNAL is speaking to the quality of the life, (From God - Godly life) - not the duration. According to many - people are alive in Hell for eternity, so do they have eternal life just because they never die????
TIMORIA is the Greek word for vindictive punishment, and that word is not used in Matt 25:46. KOLASIS comes from the root word for pruning trees to help them grow better.
@UniversalismProven It HAS TO? That's a bold conclusion to draw from such a stretched implication. Another conclusion we could draw is that what refers to the quality of the existence after death isn't the word "eternal" but instead the words "life" and "punishment/correction." There seems to be a contrast here between the two. So there's "eternal life" and and the other "eternal (not life)" which Christ chose the word "punishment" to reveal it to us as an undesirable thing.
@UniversalismProven This passage in Hebrews describes the eternal redemption from Christ, yes. But the even here the word "eternal" is referring to an everlasting redemption. You can see, the fact that it comes from Christ lies outside the word "eternal" itself as the verse references what Christ did by his blood.
So I don't get how even that verse suggests that word "eternal" describes "from God."
So Jesus keeps redeeming us over and over again for all eternity???? Or are the RESULTS of His redemption what last forever? Just as the RESULTS of the eternal correction of Matt 25:46. It is a NOUN - not a verb!
@UniversalismProven "Eternal" is a noun? I'm pretty sure it's an adjective. (Unless you're talking about a different word, it's unclear to me what you're suggesting by saying that.) "Aion" is the noun form for in Greek.
The adjective "Eternal" is describing an everlasting thing, right? You may be right in saying that the passage in Hebrews uses "eternal" to describe the everlasting result of redemption, but I can't see how it's used in the same context in Matt 25.
No PUNISHMENT is a noun! It CANNOT show continual ACTION! It does not say "eternally punishing". Also the adjective "aionios" describes that NOUN. Besides, it cannot mean Hell because those goats had not even died yet! That was a judgment of the NATIONS when Christ returns, no the final judgement. There is no mention of the cross, salvation, the blood, the atonement, etc. No one word about salvation by grace. Matt 25 is all about WORKS! Period!
@UniversalismProven Yes,"punishment"is a noun. But it's neither a person, place or a thing... It's an Idea. And ideas, indeed, can persist for indefinite amount of time. (like the Idea of Freedom or Peace) Moreover, punishment is not what "eternal" is describing, rather it's the means by which the punishment is carried out that are being referred to. (whatever they may be) I just want to add, on a personal note that I'm not storing any hostility towards you. If it ever seemed that way I'm sorry
Is redemption carried out for eternity also (eternal redemption)? Is Jesus going to hang on the cross forever? Is the means of eternal redemption persisting for an indefinite amount of time?
No, you are fine. I get in a lot of debates about this subject and most people get nasty about it so I have developed some very bad habits in how I respond. It is me, not you.
I'm glad we can carry this out in a civil, productive way.
In the context of this verse in Hebrews --how I understand/how I've been told-- You're right about the results being eternal. However the focus is not on the results of redemption. Rather, Eternal Redemption is the result of what Christ did on the cross. What is your view on this perspective?
@UniversalismProven I have a hard time understanding how the context could be transferred to that verse. The definitions of the words are the same but the context is very different. I also wanted ask what you thought about Matt 25:41 where Christ says to some of the sheep "depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Gal 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "
The eternal fire is the fire of the cross. Jesus became a curse for us, because we were all cursed. The eternal fire (the cross) removes that curse for all mankind.
@UniversalismProven You're taking contexts from different passages and imposing them on to others. This is a very dangerous thing to do as you can support lots of false views by quoting various verses in scripture.
@bloodbought91 Matt 7:23 alone proves that what this person is saying is false. Asking him what he thinks about certain verses is useless, since no matter what it is, he will twist, deny and work around scripture so that the cross he has fashioned for himself will remain intact. He's "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." The bible says, "and from such people turn away!" So that's what I would advise. Read 2 Timothy Ch. 3.
@FoxxyEmz Thanks for the insight. I am under no impression that I'm going to change his mind, neither will he change mine. No one has found enlightenment through youtube comments lol. My aim is to understand the way universalists think about such scripture that does mention these sort of things. So far though, the implications are too far stretched to be even remotely convincing.
@bloodbought91 The Greeks and Jews had no word for eternal.They used negatives like no beginning or no end(Heb 7:3;Luke 1:33)to express the idea of eternity.Even the latin root word for eternal meant age.If the Greek word aion meant a period of time then the punishment is not eternal in Matthew 25:46. I also promise to be civil in my comments. God Bless.
@bloodbought91 First of all eternal is an an english word that can be traced to Latin not to Greek.Check a dictionary or Bible concordance. I'm sure you realize that Jesus and the writers of the Bible did not speak King James English. They spoke Hebrew,Greek,and Aramaic. The correct english word for the Greek word aion is eon which means age. The adjective for aion is aionios which means pertaining to the age, just as hourly pertains to the hour.
I ultimately meant to convey that just because the Greeks may not have had a word for "eternal" doesn't mean they didn't have the concept of it.
I've been checking the New Testament Greek Lexicon and it seems to suggest that Aionios in fact, does mean everlasting. Is there a source for your info?
@bloodbought91 The eternal fire mentioned in Matthew 25:41 and Jude 1:7 is not talking about the duration of the fire,but rather the source of the fire--"Our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29 If the fire was eternal in duration, Sodom and Gomorrah would still be burning today. Also read Ezekiel 16:55--"And your sisters,Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters will return to their former state."
@bloodbought91 Once again Matt 25:41-46 is not talking about the the duration of the punishment and life,but rather the source of the punishment and life.The goats recieve punishment(chastening)from God and the sheep recieve life from God.A literal translation reads "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian,yet the just into life eonian."Matt 25:46(Concordant Literal New Testament).There is penal punishment(timora)which Jesus paid and corrective punishment(kolasis).
@741rjohnson Your argument about the true meaning of "eternal" is not convincing. In the context of Matt 25, there is nothing that implies that it was supposed to mean "From God" rather than to refer to the duration.
Be careful, Taking single verses out of context is a dangerous thing. There are lots of ridiculous things we can piece together by taking random bits of scripture out of context. We must view a verse in the context of the entire book.
@bloodbought91 I could give you my interpretation of everlasting fire but obviously you wouldn't agree with it. The Calvinist and Arminians because they believe in eternal punishment, will interpret scriptures differently than Universalist who believe in Universal Reconciliation.
@bloodbought91 As i explained in my earlier comments the Eternal Fire spoken of in Matthew 25:41 and Jude 1:7 referring to the source of the fire not the duration of the fire. Sodom would still be burning today if eternal was referring to duration. Who is the only being in the universe with no beginning and no end(eternal) Heb 7:3? God of course. Every time you see the word Eternal in scripture it is being used as a noun(referring to God) not as an adjective.
@741rjohnson Aionios is in the adjective case. Would you have me believe that the writers of passages didn't know how to use their own language? Jude isn't speaking of the physical fire that destroyed the city, rather of the fires to which those people were sent after they died. Does the crux of your argument hinge on the fact the the ruins of Sodom aren't still ablaze today?
@bloodbought91 You say that Jude isn't speaking of physical fire,rather the fires to which these people were sent.How do you know Jude wasn't referring to physical fire here.Where does it say that in Jude 1:7? The Bible is it's own commentary. 2Peter 2:6 reads "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into {ashes} condemned them with an overthow. Sounds like phsical fire to me.You're reading your theology(eternal punishment)into this verse.
@741rjohnson I'm sorry to keep bringing this up. I'm just trying wrap my head around what you saying to me. From what I've studied, Aionios has several meanings, "Age" being one of them, yes. It can also mean "without end" or "without begining or end" can it not? I guess then the correct interpretation of this word is the key to our disagreement
@bloodbought91 Strong's Concordance has three definitions for the Greek word aion which is a noun.1st definition--forever,an unbroken age perpetuity of time,eternity.2nd definition--the worlds,universe. 3rd definition--period of time,age. Aionios being the adjective form of aion means without beginning or end. Does your lexicon have the same definitions for these words?
@bloodbought91 What happens after the age? Why the Consummation of course!! 1Cor 15:22-28. The believers of John 3:16 are given age lasting life to reign with Jesus Christ during the {Millenial Age}Rev.20:6. Do the believers die after the Millenial Age? No. They are then given Immortality or vivified(zoopoieo).This is of course life beyond the reach of death.1Corinthians 15:53-54
@741rjohnson If you don't mind answering another question, I wanted to ask what takes place during this time of age punishment? Are those who are there given a second chance to repent?
@bloodbought91 Yes we as Universalist believe that those in the lake of fire will eventually repent. Isn't this the purpose of judgment and punishment? Did not the prodigal son repent in the hog pen(judgment)? God's mercy endures forever(Psalm 118:29; Psalm 136:1-26). Why do you believe there's no hope of repentance after death? Show me scriptures that says there is no hope of repentance after death.
@741rjohnson Someone as studied as yourself on this subject, I sure you have knowledge of what Revelation has to say about this and I assume you already have a reply. What do you make of chapter 16 verses 9 and 11?
@bloodbought91 First of all I am not as studied as you think I am. I am a Christian searching for the truth. There is so much that I don't know. It would be arrogant of me to say that my interpretation of scripture is correct. I admit my interpretation of scripture could be wrong. Revelation 16:9-11 is about the Great Tribulation after the rapture of the Church.God is pouring his wrath upon those who are left behind, yet they still won't repent.
@bloodbought91 First of all I am not as studied as you think I am. I am a Christian searching for the truth. There is so much that I don't know. It would be arrogant of me to say that my interpretation of scripture is correct. I admit my interpretation of scripture could be wrong. Revelation 16:9-11 is about the Great Tribulation after the rapture of the Church.God is pouring his wrath upon those who are left behind, yet they still won't repent.
@741rjohnson I didn't mean to sound vindictive in saying you know about this subject. I meant to say that you've clearly looked a lot further into this subject than I have. lol
Well, I will end my questions here. As different as our views may be the one thing we have in common is the God who is showering us with grace everyday. I pray we both find the truth one day, whatever it may be. God Bless, friend! :)
@bloodbought91 Thanks for the kind words. I truly enjoyed our conversation.Although I disagreed with some of your comments,they were thought provoking and logical. God Bless You too!!
@741rjohnson I'm really glad this could end well. Although there is one final question that is pecking at my brain if you have the patience for it. (Feel free to ignore it if you're done with this)
In 1 Timothy, God is referred to as eternal(Aionois) are we to apply the same meaning of "agely," as an adjective, to God? How would you interpret this? Again, sorry to ask yet another question. If you don't want to answer that's fine.
@bloodbought91 "Now unto the King eternal,immortal,invisible,the only wise God."1Timothy 1:17 I see what you are saying. If aion means age lasting then you're saying God's life is age lasting. But notice the next word after eternal--immortal. So we know God's life is never ending(the english definition of eternal).So if eternal meant never ending here,why put immortal here as well since they both mean the same thing? God is the eonian God because he created the eons(Heb 1:2)
@741rjohnson Interesting. Thanks. You've really challenged me to be sure of what I believe in scripture. I will definitely be reading up on this a lot more. Again, God bless you and keep you turned towards the cross.
@bloodbought91 Searching for the truth I believe is a life long process. You're last question really challenged my belief. So pray for me and I will pray for you in our sincere search for truth. And feel free to ask me any question you may have and I will answer to the best of my ability. God Bless
@bloodbought91 Revelatoin 20:10 says the devil is cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever {and ever}.If forever means eternity,what pray tell does {and ever} mean? How can you add to eternity? A literal translation reads "They shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." Revelation 20:10(Concordant Literal New Testament). This doesn't sound ridiculous. This makes perfect as well as scriptural sense. The torment and punishment is not eternal.
Here is what the Scripture says: "Behold the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD." Not a part of the world. Jesus said from the cross "IT IS FINISHED!".
@UniversalismProven "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21.
The Kingdom OF Heaven, not the Kingdom IN Heaven. Jesus OF Nazareth means Jesus FROM Nazareth. The Kingdom OF (from) Heaven is God's Earthy Kingdom. The Bible says the Kingdom of God is righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. The Kingdom OF Heaven has nothing whatsoever to do with who goes TO Heaven.
@UniversalismProven. here's the rest of that passage---- 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"
I do have one question after all. What does Christ mean by "that day"?
At the very least watch the video, as it seems you didn't pay any attention to it.
That day is the time of the millenial reign of Christ on the Earth. Jesus does not say "Depart from me and go straight to Hell! Read EXACTLY what it says! Do not ASSUME anything!
@UniversalismProven You have provided me no, hard biblical evidence for your claim, yet I am the one making assumptions. Hell is eternal separation from God. If Christ is not talking about hell then tell me what He means when He says this.
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." --Luke 13:40-43
The weeds being pulled up are NOT people. The weeds are lies, evil, false teachings,. Besides, this is a parable about the EARTHLY kingdom. There are no weeds in Heaven to be burned up. And this is in Matt 13 - not Luke.
Still. It clearly says ALL who DO evil. Is that us?
Listen, you can shove your fingers in your ears and hum all you want. You can play semantics, and argue about the meanings of words, but you can't change what Christ is clearly talking about. He came to take away our sins, yes. But, in scripture it says: "For God so loved the word that He gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him shall not parish but have everlasting life."
Shall not PERISH - not "shall not go to Hell to be tormented for eternity". People are PERISHING in their sins. Their marriages are perishing. Their lives are perishing. Their peace is perishing. There is not one single word in the Gospel of John about Hell. NOT ONE! You can turn a deaf ear to the TRUE meaning of the Bible. You do NOT know what Christ was really talking about. His own disciples did not have a clue! And Jesus did not speak English.
@UniversalismProven You're missing the point entirely. My purpose in showing you John 3:16 was to explain how Christ speaks of people who will believe in and follow Him, and therefore have everlasting life. (heaven/new earth?)
-----This also Implies that there will be people who will not believe, and therefore, not receive everlasting life. He doesn't mention hell, but since heaven or hell are the only two destination we find in scripture, 'not heaven' has it's own implications
John 3:16 is not talking about DESTINATIONS! Eternal life is NOT a place. I is being baptized in the Holy Spirit. We Christians have eternal life RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW! John 3:16 mentions neither Heaven nor Hell. It is about the quality of life on this Earth - not about after we die.
I see that the words "heaven" and "hell" aren't stated in this passage. Yes, this passage has things to imply about where we end up when we die. We all parish. Because of our sin our bodies will one day succumb to age or disease. And at the end of our lives we will have to stand accountable for our sin. BUT for those who believe, trust and follow Christ, the entirety of our sin has been paid for. Because of what he did on the cross.
Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the WORLD - not just believers. We believers are just the firstfruits of God's redemptive plan. Everyone will be restored to the Father. EVERYONE!
What you're not realizing is that there is nothing in Scripture that affirms the idea that all peoples will eventually be redeemed to heaven.
Please do me a favor and watch the video. This guy explains this very well with multiple passages Scripture. Which is greater than one the verse you're taken out of context.
I did watch the video. It was pathetic and laughable. The wages of Sin is DEATH - not hell. 1 Cor 15:22 says "As in Adam all DIE, so also in Christ, ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE. Vs 26 says "The last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH." You do the math.
@UniversalismProven Read the whole bible. Not just what you want to read. It speaks pretty plainly about it. Here in Matt. 25 it says: “44They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The Greek word for punishment in Matt 25:46 is KOLASIS, and it means CORRECTIVE DISCIPLINE! It is eternal because it's source is from God and the results of the correction last forever!
@UniversalismProven I took a quick look at the New Testament Greek Lexicon. Kolasis does mean correction. It also means punishment and penalty. If you don't believe me check it yourself. It's not that hard to find.
I already knew that. But the Greek word for vindictive punishment is TIMORIA, and that is not used here. KOLASIS has corrective measures in it, like when a parent punishes a child. No TV for a week is the penalty. It is meant to correct further disobedience.
@UniversalismProven But he uses the word αἰώνιοv meaning "everlasting" He uses the same wording to describe to what degree the righteous will be rewarded.
How can punishment/correction not be eternal and and life be eternal when Christ is using the same words? κόλασιν αἰώνιον (punishment/correction eternal) ζωὴν αἰώνιον (life eternal) It's all very thought provoking.Kolasis has the implication of a parent talking to their children.Could He be using that word to imply that it's a loving rebuke?
Aionion life is being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is the QUALITY of life aionian is describing, not it's duration! According to you, people are alive in Hell forever, so do they have everlasting life? So aionios here means HEAVENLY or GODLY life and HEAVENLY or GODLY correction. Yes, it is loving! And it's results will have lasting effects!
@UniversalismProven If I may interject, if what you're saying is true then there is no need for repentance, faith, or any other reason to follow Christ. If everyone goes to heaven after they die regardless, then there is no point to trust in Christ for salvation, no point in doing missions, we can just live however we want. Universalism is a nice idea, the problem is that it is biblically not true. Impose your ideas on us all you want but I'll stick to the Word of God the basics of our faith.
Salvation is for THIS life, not the next life. Romans 6:7 says"He who has died has been FREED from sin!" Salvation is from sin and evil in this life, not Hell in the next life. Hell is a false translation of Gehenna, and a false teaching.
@UniversalismProven Friend, eternal separation from God is a reality that is clear throughout scripture and to ignore it is very dangerous to the faith. 2 Th. 1:7-9 - “The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power”. See Rev 20:11-15
2 Thess is talking about the destruction of the carnal man. This is during the second coming of Jesus. This cannot be talking about Hell because it is not the final judgement. That takes place in Heaven, not on the Earth. You need to read and understand the context.
@UniversalismProven You are missing the point all together. What hell literally is, according to scripture, is eternal separation from God. That is what Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians. I don't see how you can find a way around words like "everlasting destruction" and "eternal lake of fire" that are seen in scripture. I truly hope that if you are a Christian you don't practice universalism. The entirety of the Christian faith is built around the next life, not the here and now.
There is no such thing as "eternal separation from God". The Bible never makes any such statement. And the Bible never says "ETERNAL lake of fire". Why are you adding to God's Holy Word? Are you desperate to bolster your false teaching?
@UniversalismProven Well...Matt 25:31-46 referring to the final judgement, uses "eternal punishment." Matt 7:15-27. Rev 20: 7-10. John 5:25-29. Romans 2:7-9. Mark 9:43 "unquenchable fire" that is the penalty for sin. Matt 10:28. Jude 1:5-7 "eternal fire". Rev 14:11 "forever and ever". Daniel 12:2 "some to shame and everlasting contempt". Isaiah 66:24 "nor will their fire be quenched". Mark 3:29 blasphemy against the holy spirit warrants "eternal damnation". Denying hell will not make it go away.
Matt 25:31-46 is NOT the final judgement. This is a judgement of the NATIONS based on how they treated the Jews, You are greatly misunderstanding God's word.
God's fire is the Refiner's fire. 1 Cor 3 says each man's work will be tested yet he himself will be saved as through FIRE! Mark 9:49 talks about being SALTED (seasoned) with FIRE! God's fire is a GOOD thing!
Your misunderstanding of God's word does not make Hell a reality.
@UniversalismProven Imposing the views of a small minority who misinterpret scripture does not make your point true. I'm going to trust the Holy Spirit guiding me in my understanding of the Bible and the thousands of church fathers and credible theologians before me who know God's word far better than you or I. Ultimately I will continue preaching the Gospel of Christ till the day I die because one is saved solely by grace through faith in Christ alone. Period. Acts 4:12.
In order for you to preach the Gospel (GOOD NEWS) of Jesus Christ, you first need to know what it is. Billions going to hell to be tormented for eternity is NOT good news. We are saved by the faith OF Jesus Christ. We are saved by HIS faithfulness unto death on the cross. We are saved by HIS blood and HIS righteousness. Our righteousness is a filthy rags. If you think you can save yourself by YOUR faith, then you are greatly deceived. Faith is a GIFT!
@UniversalismProven What you need to understand that is unequivocally clear throughout the New Testament is people are saved first by God's grace through consciously placing their faith in Jesus Christ. That much is clear. The Gospel is that we, AS CHRISTIANS, receive Christ righteousness and he receives our condemnation. He died so that we might have life and in the end he is our supreme joy and treasure forever. For everyone who is IN CHRIST. For everyone who trusts IN CHRIST for salvation.
Placing THEIR faith? So THEY get the credit for THEIR salvation????
Romans 5:18 "Consequently, just as condemnation27 for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people."
@UniversalismProven Context. Don't miss it. Romans 5:17 - "much more will THOSE WHO RECEIVE the abundance of grace..." Paul is clear that salvation is for those who receive the gospel by faith. Romans 5:2 "Through him we have also obtained access BY FAITH into this grace in which we stand. Romans 1:16 "for I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone WHO BELIEVES. Romans 3:25 " whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be RECEIVED BY FAITH
Yes, RECEIVE! Just like RECEIVING an inheritance! It is a done deal! We receive it by HIS faith! It was HIS faithfulness that supplies it so that we will receive it! HIS FAITH!
@UniversalismProven I'm sorry, that's just not true. The righteousness and perfection of Jesus is not just automatically attributed to every single human being no matter what. You just don't see that in scripture. The righteousness and perfection of Christ is attributed to all those who are IN CHRIST, and that is not everyone. Romans 3:22 "the righteousness of God through FAITH IN Jesus Christ for all who BELIEVE." Many people do not have faith in him. Many people do not believe in him.
1 Cor 15:22 - As in Adam all die, so also in Christ, ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE!
Does the sin of Adam effect the entire human race? Absolutely. Does the obedience unto death of Jesus Christ likewise effect the whole human race? ABSOLUTELY! You are making the first Adam more powerful than the Last Adam, Jesus Christ! OH MY!
@UniversalismProven Again you have sorrily mistaken what it means to be a follower of Christ. You have completely misinterpreted this passage and taken it completely out of context.
Read the very next verse, 1 Cor 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who BELONG TO CHRIST." The 'all' refers to those who are IN CHRIST. Not everyone belongs to Christ. Paul is unmistakably clear on this.
Romans 8:1"There is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST."
No, it says "In Christ ALL - not all in Christ. The same ALL that died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. The Last Adam reverses the death sentence of the first Adam. Everyone is now included in the death of Christ. He died for the sins of the WORLD - not part of the world.
@UniversalismProven I'm sorry, what you're saying is just flat out untrue, nor is it consistent with the rest of Paul's writings. Paul preached continuously against universalism and advocated constantly for the exclusivity of those who are in Jesus Christ. Not all.
"It (Christ's death) was to show God's righteousness at the present time so that he might be the just and the justifier of the ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS." - Romans 3:26
This conversation is finished. I hope you discover God's truth
Romans 3:26 "This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness." (NET Bible)
Yes, you are finished alright! PLEASE go learn your Bible AND understand it! Go do some research on the objective genitive of the Greek PISTIS CHRISTOU.
The very fact that you are a Christian Universalist shows that you have no understanding of the Christian faith nor the Bible as a whole. I apologize if my words are harsh but it is the duty of those in the church to rebuke, correct and resist false doctrine such as the one you are expressing.
Saved by the grace of God alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Because I have faith in him, by his grace, God counts me as righteous. All glory and honor is His forever!
I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit for over 35 years. The Holy Spirit has illuminated and revealed the truth of the complete victory of the cross and blood of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant to me and numerous others. I will pray that God opens your eyes to the truth also. You are the one needing rebuke for YOUR false gospel. My Gospel comes from the Bible. Yours is a doctrine of demons. REPENT!
@UniversalismProven "Judge not lest ye be judged." At no point in this argument did I claim to know your heart and say whether or not I thought you were a Christian. It is at this point however that you have made a judgement upon me and my faith, one that is based on a youtube dialogue. The very fact that you tell me my 'doctrine is of demons' leads me to believe that your heart is far from Christ. I pray that you do not treat the people in your life who think differently from you in this way.
My heart is united with Christ. I have been crucified with Christ. I have died with Christ. I have been raised with Christ to a newness of life. It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me.
You telling me my heart is far from Christ is a false accusation. You say you do not judge me - you just did. You lied.
Hell is an absolute lie and doctrine of demons.
TheTruthBeToldNow1 6 hours ago
@an824710 It's because the bible was not written in English and there is debate over whether the original Greek and Hebrew words meant "forever and ever" (what does that mean anyway) or "eternal". Google olam and aion and search for yourself.
ShirleyCoralineJones 2 days ago
If the Bible says ''eternal'' and ''forever and ever'' ''lake of fire'' then it has to be true. I don't understand . I'm confused why there is a debate if it is written in the Bible...''forever and ever'' ''no rest day or night''.
an824710 2 days ago
Great job! Thanks for analyzing this garbage!
islander31 4 days ago
"...the hundreds and hundreds of books I ever read" [...] "butchering God's word"!! Who are you? Why is this a struggle?? Why do you sound like you are about to cry?? BTW Coloring books don't count, dude.
estuchedepeluche 6 days ago
Does the sun exist? Is gravity a law? Does the Pope live in the Vatican? Are the monsters under my bed real? Why aren't the important questions debated? We demand real answers to these questions they are of the outmost importance.
estuchedepeluche 1 week ago
@estuchedepeluche Gravity isn't a law. It's a force.
Legomyegoorj 6 days ago
@Legomyegoorj Thanks for the clarification, and for missing the point, or maybe not, maybe you got it. In any case, my comment pointed the fact that theology has to wrestle with its own logic, change the meaning of words, retract from the Old Testament, etc to explain anything that make some sense, while most other explanations about forces, facts, and events don't require debate but something as simple as observation.
estuchedepeluche 6 days ago
I am glad that the universe doesn't need this guy's monster. Natural processes are capable of creating everything and no god is needed. So I'm not going to worry too much about this monster torturing me forever! :D
LifeIsABigPuzzle 2 weeks ago
@LifeIsABigPuzzle
If this is your understanding of God, I can see why you're an atheist. I'd not be a Christian if I not read the Bible any more closely than this.
changeinjoy 2 weeks ago
@changeinjoy I used to be a Christian. My family is a Christian family. And yes, I know that the Bible promises heaven for good Christians. But once you study science and give it a fair chance, you will see that even the most benevolent god is not necessary. Natural processes are capable of creating everything without any god being required.
LifeIsABigPuzzle 2 weeks ago
@LifeIsABigPuzzle
I've been deeply in love with science since long before I became a Christian. I would say that, if your only use for God was to explain natural events, then it seems to be something quite unlike Christianity that you've rejected.
changeinjoy 1 week ago
@changeinjoy Do you accept Astronomy, Biology, Evolution, Genetics, and Geology? If natural processes were able to create life, planets, and stars, then maybe natural processes were able to create the universe too.
LifeIsABigPuzzle 1 week ago
@LifeIsABigPuzzle
I most certainly do accept those theories.
However, I don't see any reason to believe that natural processes created the universe. At the very least, concluding that they can is unscientific in that there is no evidence that this is the case. Beyond that, any natural process we can study with science is a part of the universe (and therefore did not create it).
More to the point, there are the not-little, non-scientific questions of the meaning in life and nature of justice.
changeinjoy 1 week ago
@changeinjoy I am glad that you at least accept most science. But as for the meaning of life, if there is no god, you can have whatever meaning to life that you want and if it doesn't hurt anyone, no one will stop you. If your chosen purpose helps out people, you will make more friends. And we have a justice system because it helps to keep order in our societies. If we just allowed people to run around murdering, raping, and looting, there would be chaos.
LifeIsABigPuzzle 1 week ago
@LifeIsABigPuzzle
It seems, then, that your alternative to God is not science, but a secular utilitarianism.
Personally, I don't see that something is good simply because it promotes order in society. Nor do I agree that people won't try to stop you if you aren't hurting anyone; history is full of examples to the contrary.
Rather, it is often good for the solidarity of society to persecute minority groups and to declare unjust wars (among other things). I would reject that approach.
changeinjoy 1 week ago
@changeinjoy Well there is a balance between science and philosophy. You just have to find it. But whatever is best for our survival, prosperity, advancement, and well being is the best thing to do. And that is what societies usually do.
LifeIsABigPuzzle 1 week ago
@LifeIsABigPuzzle
I completely agree that both science and philosophy are needed to live a complete life.
I'm not sure that I would agree, however, that utilitarianism is the best approach.
Do you mean to support the most good overall, or the highest average of good?
In the first case, having children - even if they were mostly miserable will nearly always be ethically superior to not having them.
The second approach would advise us to kill the most miserable people.
changeinjoy 1 week ago
@LifeIsABigPuzzle (continued)
What of the possibility that religious belief may well be beneficial to society? Would you endorse it, in that case?
What of the evil person who accidentally causes prosperity, or the good person who accidentally causes harm? Is the former actually good and the latter actually evil?
How do you define prosperity? Many think that prosperity must include proximity to some deity. Are they wrong? On what grounds would you claim this?
changeinjoy 1 week ago
@changeinjoy Sam Harris talks about how religion might have been good to bring people together. But then, they went too far when they said "Only people in this religion will go to heaven." When they started saying that, the inquisition started not too long afterwards. As for all your questions, you and I oviously think differently. So why did you convert to Christianity anyways? Was it a play on your hopes and fears? That is how they control people.
LifeIsABigPuzzle 1 week ago
@LifeIsABigPuzzle I'm aware that we think differently. The point is that morality can't be as simply summed up as an aid to a prosperous society as that.
I'm also aware of Sam Harris' ideas. His theory has no more supporting evidence than he claims that religious beliefs has. By his own terms, we should reject it. He is clearly neither an historian or a theologian.
It seems to me that the New Atheist judgmentalism is just as angry, and unwilling to doubt its own positions, as any fundamentalism.
changeinjoy 1 week ago
who cares
acordes24 2 weeks ago
We deserve this punishment and we cannot understand this because our feeble minds don't understand what God tried to teach Adam. God loves us and is so powerful that his glory and righteousness would destroy us instantly. God does not hate and torment, he makes a daily effort to shield us of his maximum power that would end us. When Jesus said to the soldiers who arrested him, "I am" they were all knocked off their feet. Just his name is enough power to affect our sinful bodies
maxsaintnoel 2 weeks ago
I respect Rob Bell and have learned a lot of things in growing my faith, but to respond to psychomatry: will people be able to respond to heaven/hell post mortem? If so that means that the Bible left multiple unanswered questions in Revelation. Once people are confronted face to face with that kind of love would they choose heaven or hell? Obviously heaven, unfortunately we don't get to choose. Would it be just and fair to let a killer or thief choose thier own punishment? GOD IS JUST AND FAIR
maxsaintnoel 2 weeks ago
It is a trick of the enemy to deter people from the Truth. Satan is very subtle and hell is filling everyday.
Bedeborah 2 weeks ago
Thank you so much Minister Conway for tackling this wrong theology. May God richly bless you.
Bedeborah 2 weeks ago
havent watched all this yet but dont think conway reads very well if he read bells book twice because..he takes bell out of context when he reads page 2. this goes downhill from there. bells primary points in the book seem to be that 1)he believes that people will have the opportunity to respond post mortem and 2) once confronted face to face with that kind of love that no one would choose hell and 3)those who wouldnt choose everlasting life will choose hell.
psychomatry 2 weeks ago
thank you, it's helpful to watch this
lamanhcuong 3 weeks ago
Why is it so hard for people to use the word 'heretic'!
How about 'antichrist'! He does preach against scripture!
onemarktwoyou 3 weeks ago
Is there an eternal hell or isn't their?
I am not a fan of the type of Christianity that preaches based on Christian cliques and then says its the word of GOD.
On the other hand I don't want to be a moral relativist either.
nathanmandela 3 weeks ago
One thing I love about the way the Church is changing is that some of our leaders have the balls to put their talks on YouTube and allow people to make comments on it.
.
nathanmandela 3 weeks ago
use your mind, read the book "4 views on hell" by walvoord, crockett, hayes, Pinnock.
the scripture is not clear about the nature of hell or man (immortality). usually a teacher is dogmatic because they uphold their denominations official position/ tradition(s). it is a secondary doctrinal issue.
student507 3 weeks ago
i was christian 20 years born again..but when i read all the bible i see the madness of this so called god .most dont read any of the old testament . this so called god ....kills a man just for picking up sticks on a sabath ...what hapend to ( you shall not kill ) god kills inocent children babys men and women ,kills fish,he kills thousands ,and says to brake a neck of the donkeys , moses was a murderer read that in exodus 2 vers 11-12 read bible you will soon see what i meen. true love wins
decoman100 4 weeks ago
Yeah Rob Bell 'Are you a post mortem inclusivist?'
nathanmandela 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
This guy knows nothing about Universalism, and he proves it in the first 30 seconds.
watchthefaithrain 1 month ago
Comment removed
watchthefaithrain 1 month ago
His basics are not strong n whatever he says dont stand anywhere.Jesus himself is God n he has come to save us from the Devil who has stolen mans Identity.
825cecil 1 month ago
it says he,s the savior of thw world,read jer,32..35
tiano1965 1 month ago
God ultimately looks at a mans heart.it is not our place to judge anyone's salvation.We are only responsible to love, forgive, help and pray for one another. Jesus is so much bigger than who we are. Following him is my only comfort. Jesus teaches you how to love when you can't..and love will cover a multitude of sins...even Jesus said to the harlot "because you loved much,,,, your sins are forgiven"...however one thing is to be noted...she was at His feet worshiping Him.Love is the first step.
mamamialove 1 month ago
Wow, nice to see that they have an 'independent' panel critiquing the book.
cityrise 1 month ago
I do not believe he is taking it out of context nothing he is say is 'heresy' its in there. Exogesis is a very recent thing... The Yanks don't quite use it to full effect but what their saying is not their own words...
Find these statements where what he is saying is not biblical.
lord171 1 month ago
Please forgive me for failing to use the proper title Dr. Conway.
dribble8899 1 month ago
I have only watched 35 minutes of the video and I see 4 counts where Mr. Conway has left the context behind.
Question: Why is Mr. Conway doing exactly what he condemns Mr. Bell for doing: taking a verse out of context?
dribble8899 1 month ago
Like several of the comments made by Mr. Conway already, the context is left behind. At 35:35 we hear Mr. Conway expounding on what happens to men after they die that are in 'hell.' He is reading from Revelations 16:9. However, if we follow back to Revelations 16:1 we can read plainly 'where' these judgements are pronounced. v.1 'And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.'
dribble8899 1 month ago
Also Hebrews 6:1-2 Paul lists all the basic foundations of the Christian faith: "1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment"
The word eternal comes from the greek word: aionios. Meaning eternal, for ever, everlasting.
So yes, Hell is forever.
birdwingfx 1 month ago
@birdwingfx
Hebrews never says one single word about Hell. The eternal judgement is NOT GUILTY! That is the verdict that was guaranteed for the sins of the word through the finished work of the cross and shed blood of Jesus Christ. He is the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD - John 1:29. NOT GUILTY! Everyone will be restored to the Father through Christ.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
Eternal Judgement refers to the Judgement of God, not to a particular verdict. If it were referring to a verdict it would say "Eternal Salvation". Which is not listed as a key principle of Faith for Christians. Instead "Eternal Judgement" is listed.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 Clearly states only those that believe in him are saved.
Also read: Mark 16:16, Matt. 7:19
birdwingfx 1 month ago
@birdwingfx
Sorry John 3:16 does not say SAVED. And the condemnation (vs 18) is ALREADY - not in the future. John 3:16 is about THIS life - not the next life.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
"14For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt. 22:14
"13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matt. 7:13-14
Yes. Many more people will die and burn in the fiery pits of Hell for all eternity than will be saved. Which is why Christians should stop arguing about facts that they SHOULD ALREADY KNOW, and save people!!
birdwingfx 1 month ago
@birdwingfx
The narrow road to LIFE - not Heaven and the wide road to DESTRUCTION - not Hell. That is all about THIS LIFE here on the Earth. That has nothing to do with Heaven or Hell.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven
In Matt. 7:13-14 Life is referring to eternal life, which is life in heaven.
and Destruction if refering to hell. As seen in 2 Thessalonians, the fire's of Hell is described also as an everlasting Destruction.
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
birdwingfx 1 month ago
@birdwingfx
The road that leads to DESTRUCTION - not Hell. Sin destroys marriages, relationships, health, peace, etc etc. The other road is the road to LIFE - not the road to Heaven. Please quit adding to God's word. Please quit changing God's word. Read EXACTLY what it says and DO NOT put words in God's mouth. SHAME ON YOU!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven What about Matthew 25:46?
Read EXACTLY what it says. Not what it ~could~ imply.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
In Matthew 25:46 - the Greek word for punishment is KOLASIS which means corrective discipline - like a father gives his children. It is eternal because it comes from God and has eternal results. They will never need correction again. Please compare the expression "eternal redemption" in Hebrews. So along with ready EXACTLY what it says tyou need to understand EXACTLY what it means.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven The Greek word Kolasis can mean "punishment" and "penalty", along with "correction." Christ doesn't say anything that suggests "eternal" refers to the result of correction. He also uses the same word for "eternal" to describe the life which the righteous are to receive. It's pretty plain; "Punishment eternal" and "Life eternal."
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
ETERNAL is speaking to the quality of the life, (From God - Godly life) - not the duration. According to many - people are alive in Hell for eternity, so do they have eternal life just because they never die????
TIMORIA is the Greek word for vindictive punishment, and that word is not used in Matt 25:46. KOLASIS comes from the root word for pruning trees to help them grow better.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Tell me exactly where you got the implication that "eternal" refers to the quality of life rather than duration.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
Because according to you, people in Hell have eternal (never ending) life. So it has to refer to the quality, not the duration.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven It HAS TO? That's a bold conclusion to draw from such a stretched implication. Another conclusion we could draw is that what refers to the quality of the existence after death isn't the word "eternal" but instead the words "life" and "punishment/correction." There seems to be a contrast here between the two. So there's "eternal life" and and the other "eternal (not life)" which Christ chose the word "punishment" to reveal it to us as an undesirable thing.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
BOTH come from God - that is why they are both described as eternal. Again, please compare the expression "eternal redemption" in Hebrews 9:12.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven This passage in Hebrews describes the eternal redemption from Christ, yes. But the even here the word "eternal" is referring to an everlasting redemption. You can see, the fact that it comes from Christ lies outside the word "eternal" itself as the verse references what Christ did by his blood.
So I don't get how even that verse suggests that word "eternal" describes "from God."
Maybe you can help clarify that a bit.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
So Jesus keeps redeeming us over and over again for all eternity???? Or are the RESULTS of His redemption what last forever? Just as the RESULTS of the eternal correction of Matt 25:46. It is a NOUN - not a verb!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven "Eternal" is a noun? I'm pretty sure it's an adjective. (Unless you're talking about a different word, it's unclear to me what you're suggesting by saying that.) "Aion" is the noun form for in Greek.
The adjective "Eternal" is describing an everlasting thing, right? You may be right in saying that the passage in Hebrews uses "eternal" to describe the everlasting result of redemption, but I can't see how it's used in the same context in Matt 25.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
No PUNISHMENT is a noun! It CANNOT show continual ACTION! It does not say "eternally punishing". Also the adjective "aionios" describes that NOUN. Besides, it cannot mean Hell because those goats had not even died yet! That was a judgment of the NATIONS when Christ returns, no the final judgement. There is no mention of the cross, salvation, the blood, the atonement, etc. No one word about salvation by grace. Matt 25 is all about WORKS! Period!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Yes,"punishment"is a noun. But it's neither a person, place or a thing... It's an Idea. And ideas, indeed, can persist for indefinite amount of time. (like the Idea of Freedom or Peace) Moreover, punishment is not what "eternal" is describing, rather it's the means by which the punishment is carried out that are being referred to. (whatever they may be) I just want to add, on a personal note that I'm not storing any hostility towards you. If it ever seemed that way I'm sorry
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
Is redemption carried out for eternity also (eternal redemption)? Is Jesus going to hang on the cross forever? Is the means of eternal redemption persisting for an indefinite amount of time?
No, you are fine. I get in a lot of debates about this subject and most people get nasty about it so I have developed some very bad habits in how I respond. It is me, not you.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Don't worry. I know how youtube discussions can get :)
I'm glad we can carry this out in a civil, productive way.
In the context of this verse in Hebrews --how I understand/how I've been told-- You're right about the results being eternal. However the focus is not on the results of redemption. Rather, Eternal Redemption is the result of what Christ did on the cross. What is your view on this perspective?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
Yes, the results are eternal just as the results of correction in Matt 25:46 are eternal. That was my whole point.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven I have a hard time understanding how the context could be transferred to that verse. The definitions of the words are the same but the context is very different. I also wanted ask what you thought about Matt 25:41 where Christ says to some of the sheep "depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
Gal 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "
The eternal fire is the fire of the cross. Jesus became a curse for us, because we were all cursed. The eternal fire (the cross) removes that curse for all mankind.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven You're taking contexts from different passages and imposing them on to others. This is a very dangerous thing to do as you can support lots of false views by quoting various verses in scripture.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 Matt 7:23 alone proves that what this person is saying is false. Asking him what he thinks about certain verses is useless, since no matter what it is, he will twist, deny and work around scripture so that the cross he has fashioned for himself will remain intact. He's "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." The bible says, "and from such people turn away!" So that's what I would advise. Read 2 Timothy Ch. 3.
FoxxyEmz 1 month ago
@FoxxyEmz Thanks for the insight. I am under no impression that I'm going to change his mind, neither will he change mine. No one has found enlightenment through youtube comments lol. My aim is to understand the way universalists think about such scripture that does mention these sort of things. So far though, the implications are too far stretched to be even remotely convincing.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 The Greeks and Jews had no word for eternal.They used negatives like no beginning or no end(Heb 7:3;Luke 1:33)to express the idea of eternity.Even the latin root word for eternal meant age.If the Greek word aion meant a period of time then the punishment is not eternal in Matthew 25:46. I also promise to be civil in my comments. God Bless.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson One question. What does "Eternal" mean in English? Is it easy to explain with implying a negative?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 First of all eternal is an an english word that can be traced to Latin not to Greek.Check a dictionary or Bible concordance. I'm sure you realize that Jesus and the writers of the Bible did not speak King James English. They spoke Hebrew,Greek,and Aramaic. The correct english word for the Greek word aion is eon which means age. The adjective for aion is aionios which means pertaining to the age, just as hourly pertains to the hour.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson My point wasn't clear enough.
I ultimately meant to convey that just because the Greeks may not have had a word for "eternal" doesn't mean they didn't have the concept of it.
I've been checking the New Testament Greek Lexicon and it seems to suggest that Aionios in fact, does mean everlasting. Is there a source for your info?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 The eternal fire mentioned in Matthew 25:41 and Jude 1:7 is not talking about the duration of the fire,but rather the source of the fire--"Our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29 If the fire was eternal in duration, Sodom and Gomorrah would still be burning today. Also read Ezekiel 16:55--"And your sisters,Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters will return to their former state."
741rjohnson 1 month ago
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741rjohnson 1 month ago
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@bloodbought91 Once again Matt 25:41-46 is not talking about the the duration of the punishment and life,but rather the source of the punishment and life.The goats recieve punishment(chastening)from God and the sheep recieve life from God.A literal translation reads "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian,yet the just into life eonian."Matt 25:46(Concordant Literal New Testament).There is penal punishment(timora)which Jesus paid and corrective punishment(kolasis).
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson Your argument about the true meaning of "eternal" is not convincing. In the context of Matt 25, there is nothing that implies that it was supposed to mean "From God" rather than to refer to the duration.
Be careful, Taking single verses out of context is a dangerous thing. There are lots of ridiculous things we can piece together by taking random bits of scripture out of context. We must view a verse in the context of the entire book.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
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741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson In Matt 25:41 Christ speaks of that very place. Prepared for the devil and his angels. Does it not?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 Yes it does.What is the Everlasting Fire prepared for the devil and his angels?
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson You tell me.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 I could give you my interpretation of everlasting fire but obviously you wouldn't agree with it. The Calvinist and Arminians because they believe in eternal punishment, will interpret scriptures differently than Universalist who believe in Universal Reconciliation.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson By all means, tell me. I'm genuinely curious.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 As i explained in my earlier comments the Eternal Fire spoken of in Matthew 25:41 and Jude 1:7 referring to the source of the fire not the duration of the fire. Sodom would still be burning today if eternal was referring to duration. Who is the only being in the universe with no beginning and no end(eternal) Heb 7:3? God of course. Every time you see the word Eternal in scripture it is being used as a noun(referring to God) not as an adjective.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson Aionios is in the adjective case. Would you have me believe that the writers of passages didn't know how to use their own language? Jude isn't speaking of the physical fire that destroyed the city, rather of the fires to which those people were sent after they died. Does the crux of your argument hinge on the fact the the ruins of Sodom aren't still ablaze today?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 You say that Jude isn't speaking of physical fire,rather the fires to which these people were sent.How do you know Jude wasn't referring to physical fire here.Where does it say that in Jude 1:7? The Bible is it's own commentary. 2Peter 2:6 reads "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into {ashes} condemned them with an overthow. Sounds like phsical fire to me.You're reading your theology(eternal punishment)into this verse.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 You are correct. Aionios is in the adjective case. Aionios is the adjective form of it's root word aion which means age.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson I'm sorry to keep bringing this up. I'm just trying wrap my head around what you saying to me. From what I've studied, Aionios has several meanings, "Age" being one of them, yes. It can also mean "without end" or "without begining or end" can it not? I guess then the correct interpretation of this word is the key to our disagreement
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 Strong's Concordance has three definitions for the Greek word aion which is a noun.1st definition--forever,an unbroken age perpetuity of time,eternity.2nd definition--the worlds,universe. 3rd definition--period of time,age. Aionios being the adjective form of aion means without beginning or end. Does your lexicon have the same definitions for these words?
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson Indeed it does. So, is it your view that Aionios in Matthew 25 is interpreted as "age" meaning a finite period of time?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 Yes I interpret Matthew 25:46 as age lasting punishment for the wicked and age lasting life for the righteous.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson So what happens after the age?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 What happens after the age? Why the Consummation of course!! 1Cor 15:22-28. The believers of John 3:16 are given age lasting life to reign with Jesus Christ during the {Millenial Age}Rev.20:6. Do the believers die after the Millenial Age? No. They are then given Immortality or vivified(zoopoieo).This is of course life beyond the reach of death.1Corinthians 15:53-54
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson If you don't mind answering another question, I wanted to ask what takes place during this time of age punishment? Are those who are there given a second chance to repent?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 Yes we as Universalist believe that those in the lake of fire will eventually repent. Isn't this the purpose of judgment and punishment? Did not the prodigal son repent in the hog pen(judgment)? God's mercy endures forever(Psalm 118:29; Psalm 136:1-26). Why do you believe there's no hope of repentance after death? Show me scriptures that says there is no hope of repentance after death.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson Someone as studied as yourself on this subject, I sure you have knowledge of what Revelation has to say about this and I assume you already have a reply. What do you make of chapter 16 verses 9 and 11?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 First of all I am not as studied as you think I am. I am a Christian searching for the truth. There is so much that I don't know. It would be arrogant of me to say that my interpretation of scripture is correct. I admit my interpretation of scripture could be wrong. Revelation 16:9-11 is about the Great Tribulation after the rapture of the Church.God is pouring his wrath upon those who are left behind, yet they still won't repent.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 First of all I am not as studied as you think I am. I am a Christian searching for the truth. There is so much that I don't know. It would be arrogant of me to say that my interpretation of scripture is correct. I admit my interpretation of scripture could be wrong. Revelation 16:9-11 is about the Great Tribulation after the rapture of the Church.God is pouring his wrath upon those who are left behind, yet they still won't repent.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson I didn't mean to sound vindictive in saying you know about this subject. I meant to say that you've clearly looked a lot further into this subject than I have. lol
Well, I will end my questions here. As different as our views may be the one thing we have in common is the God who is showering us with grace everyday. I pray we both find the truth one day, whatever it may be. God Bless, friend! :)
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 Thanks for the kind words. I truly enjoyed our conversation.Although I disagreed with some of your comments,they were thought provoking and logical. God Bless You too!!
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson I'm really glad this could end well. Although there is one final question that is pecking at my brain if you have the patience for it. (Feel free to ignore it if you're done with this)
In 1 Timothy, God is referred to as eternal(Aionois) are we to apply the same meaning of "agely," as an adjective, to God? How would you interpret this? Again, sorry to ask yet another question. If you don't want to answer that's fine.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 "Now unto the King eternal,immortal,invisible,the only wise God."1Timothy 1:17 I see what you are saying. If aion means age lasting then you're saying God's life is age lasting. But notice the next word after eternal--immortal. So we know God's life is never ending(the english definition of eternal).So if eternal meant never ending here,why put immortal here as well since they both mean the same thing? God is the eonian God because he created the eons(Heb 1:2)
741rjohnson 1 month ago
@741rjohnson Interesting. Thanks. You've really challenged me to be sure of what I believe in scripture. I will definitely be reading up on this a lot more. Again, God bless you and keep you turned towards the cross.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91 Searching for the truth I believe is a life long process. You're last question really challenged my belief. So pray for me and I will pray for you in our sincere search for truth. And feel free to ask me any question you may have and I will answer to the best of my ability. God Bless
741rjohnson 1 month ago
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@bloodbought91 Revelatoin 20:10 says the devil is cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever {and ever}.If forever means eternity,what pray tell does {and ever} mean? How can you add to eternity? A literal translation reads "They shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." Revelation 20:10(Concordant Literal New Testament). This doesn't sound ridiculous. This makes perfect as well as scriptural sense. The torment and punishment is not eternal.
741rjohnson 1 month ago
'Love Wins' is ridiculous. Jesus does not rescue us from God. He rescues us from ourselves, from our wicked ways.
jgallete 1 month ago
One way and One way only!- Jesus.
FreshPrinceSthlm 1 month ago
Here is what the Scripture says: "Behold the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the WORLD." Not a part of the world. Jesus said from the cross "IT IS FINISHED!".
Any questions?
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21.
Nope. No questions.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
The Kingdom OF Heaven, not the Kingdom IN Heaven. Jesus OF Nazareth means Jesus FROM Nazareth. The Kingdom OF (from) Heaven is God's Earthy Kingdom. The Bible says the Kingdom of God is righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. The Kingdom OF Heaven has nothing whatsoever to do with who goes TO Heaven.
I am glad you have no questions.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven. here's the rest of that passage---- 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"
I do have one question after all. What does Christ mean by "that day"?
At the very least watch the video, as it seems you didn't pay any attention to it.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
That day is the time of the millenial reign of Christ on the Earth. Jesus does not say "Depart from me and go straight to Hell! Read EXACTLY what it says! Do not ASSUME anything!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven You have provided me no, hard biblical evidence for your claim, yet I am the one making assumptions. Hell is eternal separation from God. If Christ is not talking about hell then tell me what He means when He says this.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven
Another example from Jesus Himself.
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." --Luke 13:40-43
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
The weeds being pulled up are NOT people. The weeds are lies, evil, false teachings,. Besides, this is a parable about the EARTHLY kingdom. There are no weeds in Heaven to be burned up. And this is in Matt 13 - not Luke.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Excuse me. I had my verses mixed up.
Still. It clearly says ALL who DO evil. Is that us?
Listen, you can shove your fingers in your ears and hum all you want. You can play semantics, and argue about the meanings of words, but you can't change what Christ is clearly talking about. He came to take away our sins, yes. But, in scripture it says: "For God so loved the word that He gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES in him shall not parish but have everlasting life."
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
Shall not PERISH - not "shall not go to Hell to be tormented for eternity". People are PERISHING in their sins. Their marriages are perishing. Their lives are perishing. Their peace is perishing. There is not one single word in the Gospel of John about Hell. NOT ONE! You can turn a deaf ear to the TRUE meaning of the Bible. You do NOT know what Christ was really talking about. His own disciples did not have a clue! And Jesus did not speak English.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven You're missing the point entirely. My purpose in showing you John 3:16 was to explain how Christ speaks of people who will believe in and follow Him, and therefore have everlasting life. (heaven/new earth?)
-----This also Implies that there will be people who will not believe, and therefore, not receive everlasting life. He doesn't mention hell, but since heaven or hell are the only two destination we find in scripture, 'not heaven' has it's own implications
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
John 3:16 is not talking about DESTINATIONS! Eternal life is NOT a place. I is being baptized in the Holy Spirit. We Christians have eternal life RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW! John 3:16 mentions neither Heaven nor Hell. It is about the quality of life on this Earth - not about after we die.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Again, you missed the point.....
I see that the words "heaven" and "hell" aren't stated in this passage. Yes, this passage has things to imply about where we end up when we die. We all parish. Because of our sin our bodies will one day succumb to age or disease. And at the end of our lives we will have to stand accountable for our sin. BUT for those who believe, trust and follow Christ, the entirety of our sin has been paid for. Because of what he did on the cross.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the WORLD - not just believers. We believers are just the firstfruits of God's redemptive plan. Everyone will be restored to the Father. EVERYONE!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Okay. So we've come full circle.
What you're not realizing is that there is nothing in Scripture that affirms the idea that all peoples will eventually be redeemed to heaven.
Please do me a favor and watch the video. This guy explains this very well with multiple passages Scripture. Which is greater than one the verse you're taken out of context.
God Bless you in your search for the Truth.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
I did watch the video. It was pathetic and laughable. The wages of Sin is DEATH - not hell. 1 Cor 15:22 says "As in Adam all DIE, so also in Christ, ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE. Vs 26 says "The last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH." You do the math.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Read the whole bible. Not just what you want to read. It speaks pretty plainly about it. Here in Matt. 25 it says: “44They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
The Greek word for punishment in Matt 25:46 is KOLASIS, and it means CORRECTIVE DISCIPLINE! It is eternal because it's source is from God and the results of the correction last forever!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven I took a quick look at the New Testament Greek Lexicon. Kolasis does mean correction. It also means punishment and penalty. If you don't believe me check it yourself. It's not that hard to find.
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
I already knew that. But the Greek word for vindictive punishment is TIMORIA, and that is not used here. KOLASIS has corrective measures in it, like when a parent punishes a child. No TV for a week is the penalty. It is meant to correct further disobedience.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven But he uses the word αἰώνιοv meaning "everlasting" He uses the same wording to describe to what degree the righteous will be rewarded.
How can punishment/correction not be eternal and and life be eternal when Christ is using the same words? κόλασιν αἰώνιον (punishment/correction eternal) ζωὴν αἰώνιον (life eternal) It's all very thought provoking.Kolasis has the implication of a parent talking to their children.Could He be using that word to imply that it's a loving rebuke?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@bloodbought91
Aionion life is being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is the QUALITY of life aionian is describing, not it's duration! According to you, people are alive in Hell forever, so do they have everlasting life? So aionios here means HEAVENLY or GODLY life and HEAVENLY or GODLY correction. Yes, it is loving! And it's results will have lasting effects!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Alright. If you don't mind taking a step back, I have a question.
What is being saved mean?
bloodbought91 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven If I may interject, if what you're saying is true then there is no need for repentance, faith, or any other reason to follow Christ. If everyone goes to heaven after they die regardless, then there is no point to trust in Christ for salvation, no point in doing missions, we can just live however we want. Universalism is a nice idea, the problem is that it is biblically not true. Impose your ideas on us all you want but I'll stick to the Word of God the basics of our faith.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Salvation is for THIS life, not the next life. Romans 6:7 says"He who has died has been FREED from sin!" Salvation is from sin and evil in this life, not Hell in the next life. Hell is a false translation of Gehenna, and a false teaching.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Friend, eternal separation from God is a reality that is clear throughout scripture and to ignore it is very dangerous to the faith. 2 Th. 1:7-9 - “The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power”. See Rev 20:11-15
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
2 Thess is talking about the destruction of the carnal man. This is during the second coming of Jesus. This cannot be talking about Hell because it is not the final judgement. That takes place in Heaven, not on the Earth. You need to read and understand the context.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven You are missing the point all together. What hell literally is, according to scripture, is eternal separation from God. That is what Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians. I don't see how you can find a way around words like "everlasting destruction" and "eternal lake of fire" that are seen in scripture. I truly hope that if you are a Christian you don't practice universalism. The entirety of the Christian faith is built around the next life, not the here and now.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
There is no such thing as "eternal separation from God". The Bible never makes any such statement. And the Bible never says "ETERNAL lake of fire". Why are you adding to God's Holy Word? Are you desperate to bolster your false teaching?
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Well...Matt 25:31-46 referring to the final judgement, uses "eternal punishment." Matt 7:15-27. Rev 20: 7-10. John 5:25-29. Romans 2:7-9. Mark 9:43 "unquenchable fire" that is the penalty for sin. Matt 10:28. Jude 1:5-7 "eternal fire". Rev 14:11 "forever and ever". Daniel 12:2 "some to shame and everlasting contempt". Isaiah 66:24 "nor will their fire be quenched". Mark 3:29 blasphemy against the holy spirit warrants "eternal damnation". Denying hell will not make it go away.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Matt 25:31-46 is NOT the final judgement. This is a judgement of the NATIONS based on how they treated the Jews, You are greatly misunderstanding God's word.
God's fire is the Refiner's fire. 1 Cor 3 says each man's work will be tested yet he himself will be saved as through FIRE! Mark 9:49 talks about being SALTED (seasoned) with FIRE! God's fire is a GOOD thing!
Your misunderstanding of God's word does not make Hell a reality.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Imposing the views of a small minority who misinterpret scripture does not make your point true. I'm going to trust the Holy Spirit guiding me in my understanding of the Bible and the thousands of church fathers and credible theologians before me who know God's word far better than you or I. Ultimately I will continue preaching the Gospel of Christ till the day I die because one is saved solely by grace through faith in Christ alone. Period. Acts 4:12.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
In order for you to preach the Gospel (GOOD NEWS) of Jesus Christ, you first need to know what it is. Billions going to hell to be tormented for eternity is NOT good news. We are saved by the faith OF Jesus Christ. We are saved by HIS faithfulness unto death on the cross. We are saved by HIS blood and HIS righteousness. Our righteousness is a filthy rags. If you think you can save yourself by YOUR faith, then you are greatly deceived. Faith is a GIFT!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven What you need to understand that is unequivocally clear throughout the New Testament is people are saved first by God's grace through consciously placing their faith in Jesus Christ. That much is clear. The Gospel is that we, AS CHRISTIANS, receive Christ righteousness and he receives our condemnation. He died so that we might have life and in the end he is our supreme joy and treasure forever. For everyone who is IN CHRIST. For everyone who trusts IN CHRIST for salvation.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Placing THEIR faith? So THEY get the credit for THEIR salvation????
Romans 5:18 "Consequently, just as condemnation27 for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people."
The Bible proves you wrong.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Context. Don't miss it. Romans 5:17 - "much more will THOSE WHO RECEIVE the abundance of grace..." Paul is clear that salvation is for those who receive the gospel by faith. Romans 5:2 "Through him we have also obtained access BY FAITH into this grace in which we stand. Romans 1:16 "for I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone WHO BELIEVES. Romans 3:25 " whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be RECEIVED BY FAITH
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Yes, RECEIVE! Just like RECEIVING an inheritance! It is a done deal! We receive it by HIS faith! It was HIS faithfulness that supplies it so that we will receive it! HIS FAITH!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven I'm sorry, that's just not true. The righteousness and perfection of Jesus is not just automatically attributed to every single human being no matter what. You just don't see that in scripture. The righteousness and perfection of Christ is attributed to all those who are IN CHRIST, and that is not everyone. Romans 3:22 "the righteousness of God through FAITH IN Jesus Christ for all who BELIEVE." Many people do not have faith in him. Many people do not believe in him.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
1 Cor 15:22 - As in Adam all die, so also in Christ, ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE!
Does the sin of Adam effect the entire human race? Absolutely. Does the obedience unto death of Jesus Christ likewise effect the whole human race? ABSOLUTELY! You are making the first Adam more powerful than the Last Adam, Jesus Christ! OH MY!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Again you have sorrily mistaken what it means to be a follower of Christ. You have completely misinterpreted this passage and taken it completely out of context.
Read the very next verse, 1 Cor 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who BELONG TO CHRIST." The 'all' refers to those who are IN CHRIST. Not everyone belongs to Christ. Paul is unmistakably clear on this.
Romans 8:1"There is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST."
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
No, it says "In Christ ALL - not all in Christ. The same ALL that died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. The Last Adam reverses the death sentence of the first Adam. Everyone is now included in the death of Christ. He died for the sins of the WORLD - not part of the world.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven I'm sorry, what you're saying is just flat out untrue, nor is it consistent with the rest of Paul's writings. Paul preached continuously against universalism and advocated constantly for the exclusivity of those who are in Jesus Christ. Not all.
"It (Christ's death) was to show God's righteousness at the present time so that he might be the just and the justifier of the ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN JESUS." - Romans 3:26
This conversation is finished. I hope you discover God's truth
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
Romans 3:26 "This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness." (NET Bible)
Yes, you are finished alright! PLEASE go learn your Bible AND understand it! Go do some research on the objective genitive of the Greek PISTIS CHRISTOU.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven
The very fact that you are a Christian Universalist shows that you have no understanding of the Christian faith nor the Bible as a whole. I apologize if my words are harsh but it is the duty of those in the church to rebuke, correct and resist false doctrine such as the one you are expressing.
Saved by the grace of God alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Because I have faith in him, by his grace, God counts me as righteous. All glory and honor is His forever!
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit for over 35 years. The Holy Spirit has illuminated and revealed the truth of the complete victory of the cross and blood of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant to me and numerous others. I will pray that God opens your eyes to the truth also. You are the one needing rebuke for YOUR false gospel. My Gospel comes from the Bible. Yours is a doctrine of demons. REPENT!
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven "Judge not lest ye be judged." At no point in this argument did I claim to know your heart and say whether or not I thought you were a Christian. It is at this point however that you have made a judgement upon me and my faith, one that is based on a youtube dialogue. The very fact that you tell me my 'doctrine is of demons' leads me to believe that your heart is far from Christ. I pray that you do not treat the people in your life who think differently from you in this way.
FCBarca720 1 month ago
@FCBarca720
My heart is united with Christ. I have been crucified with Christ. I have died with Christ. I have been raised with Christ to a newness of life. It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me.
You telling me my heart is far from Christ is a false accusation. You say you do not judge me - you just did. You lied.
UniversalismProven 1 month ago
@UniversalismProven Amen!!!
741rjohnson 1 month ago