There is a problem at the point "taking only their music" point. Basis of the problem lies there. They are not "they" :)
For example naming "blues" as a "black music" is racist in a way. We are all homo sapiens sapiens, some of us have darker skin, some has blue eyes, some brown, some of us have curly hair, some of us dont. This is kinda silly way to look at who we are.
"I draw the line at having to be you in order for us to have a relationship."
I wish more people would understand that it's okay to draw that line. I wish people would stop thinking that we have to look, act, and think the same to love one another.
Dear All -- The problem with cutting up an interview into 4 pieces is that one comment can be taken out of context. Please listen to the interview segment before this one (3/4) where Holly explicitly talks about not having to be part of a group to sing about that group (she's not a lesbian, but she sings lesbian songs; she's not a parent, but she sings about having children, she's not a farmworker, but ...) Holly's in an exquisite voice for conscious participation in the world.
I get the message but in the end she's kind of arguing for a singing license that you have to earn before being allowed to sing a song from another culture, that's culture going the wrong way.
One usually gets to know a culture by hearsay, then you dabble in it, then maybe you get immersed in it. Arguing for the reverse is boneheaded.
@rgzdev the way I look at it is that I want to be damn sure I'm doing it "correctly" and to the best of my ability before I put it out there for everyone to see. I wouldn't say it's "being allowed" by some greater force or group but rather, like she says, doing the homework and then allowing yourself when its comfortable... You need to get immersed before you start showing off basically. I guess I tend to judge myself harshly, so I have a hard time understanding people who don't? Idk.
@Wally773MTG and of course that's why I say I get the message but artistic inspiration is very delicate bubble that pops under any form of enforcement of values... unless of course it gets inspired to subvert those values.
@TheAmazingBiped - There is also such a thing as under-analysis. Listen to the vid again - Holly is NOT saying: "How dare the white people sing the black people's music?" She's saying there needs to be a conscious effort to UNDERSTAND and empathize with the music one borrows. I remember as a child seeing the Lawrence Welk singers performing a "Negro Spiritual" and asking my parents why they were all smiling.
@TheAmazingBiped its the same reason I would get pissed off if lil wayne covered or sampled a frank sinatra song or an opera piece and did it poorly. Thats the key word in there "...and sings a gospel song, POORLY." Being a HUGE fan of blues, motown/ R&B, funk, old school soul and gospel, jazz, african based music in general whilst being a white kid who sings in choirs...I have felt the same way SO many times. A year ago I had my choir had an african spiritual and a gospel piece. The whole time
@Wally773MTG Judge them on their performance, not the colour of their skin. Musical talent has nothing to do with skin colour. Dragging skin colour into every aspect of life is something racists do.
@TheAmazingBiped No no no, talent has nothing to do with this. Its musical taste and interpretation which has to do with culture/ social atmosphere and focus of musical education which in turn has EVERYTHING to do with skin color. Is it racist to say black culture is different than white culture? My point (and hers) is that black people typically do black music better than white people. When white people do black music poorly, other white people don't even notice let alone call them out on it...
American liberals don't understand how racist they are and it's not for the reasons they think. The racism exhibited comes from hypersensitivity, over-analysis and something I could only describe as self loathing.
"Is it racist to say black culture is different than white culture?". YES. Absolutely YES. Because it is an extreme generalisation. It completely ignores the thousands of cultures that people with various skin colours do and can have.
Do you think isolated tribes of Aboriginal people living in central Australia have the same 'black culture'?
Do you think African American scientists in their late 50s have the same 'culture' as young African American gangsters in south central LA?
And guess what else you're doing. You completely preclude the possibility of white people being involved in this 'black culture' you speak of and black people being involved int his 'white culture' you speak of. Why? Because you're a racist.
@TheAmazingBiped HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ok dude, at some small level I agree with you/ can see where you are coming from but jesus you are stupid....please re-read your first reply from an hour ago and compare it to your second, see if you can find any contradictions (let me give you a hint, it involves hypersensitivity and over analysis). And wait a minute......are you calling me liberal!?!? Hahahahahaha thanks for the laugh
@TheAmazingBiped Says the guy who calls everyone a racist due to his lack of comprehensive faculties? I work for the CTA, you know how many black people I know and like haha? Either way its not cus they are black that I like them or not, whatever the case may be. Oh wait is that why I am racist, cus I don't say 'African American' hahaha? You need to get out into the world and experience some stuff dude, and I wasn't "ridiculing" you when I said you contradict yourself...Nice non-answer though.
@TheAmazingBiped I kept thinking "This sucks! No one is doing this stuff justice!" The way white people, as a culture, "feel" (and therefore do music) is way different than the way black people "feel" (and therefore do music). All you have to do is look at 17th and 18th century music in Europe and compare it to African music of the same time. COMPLETE difference of focus. Europe=melodic and harmonic complexity and beauty. Africa= Rhythm and unfettered passion. She hit the nail on the head here
@neomp5 I disagree as well, but I wouldn't call it a "racist" concept. There are a lot of people who very genuinely worry about this kind of "theft" (the technical term is "cultural appropriation") particularly in the arts and in religion, and I can definitely understand the concern. After all, much of the time it is done disrespectfully and ignorantly by people who have no real interest in understanding the meaning of what they're taking and adapting for their own purposes. However...
@ThirteenthMuse ... I also wonder, might we not be worse off, in some ways, without this phenomenon? If we're mixing badly, if we're making all kinds of mistakes in our attempts to appreciate other cultures and enter into the spirit of someone else's world... isn't it still better than the opposite extreme of no mixing at all? Our worst errors are at least something to build on, which is better than nothing.
but you're still assuming that these ideas belong to someone in the first place. without a copyright, an idea enters the meme pool and takes on a life of it's own, evolving as it goes from host to host. there's no stopping it. it belongs to no one but itself, it is in a sense alive.
what's the difference between a person from culture A incorporating aspects of culture B into his life without understanding them, and a person from culture B doing the same with his own culture?
@neomp5 You are not reading my comments clearly. You're assuming that I believe things which I do not, in fact, believe. But what the hell - let's play with the argument as you seem to be construing it. The idea of "copyright" is a relatively modern invention of Western culture. In other words, it's easy for us to claim "But I didn't break the rules!" when we're the ones who MADE those rules. To many people, creation = ownership, and copyright has nothing to do with it.
@neomp5 To clarify my original statement: I agree that nobody "owns" culture in the strict legal sense. However, I still feel that it would be awfully nice if we were more respectful of other people's cultures. I'm not saying "Hands off, never borrow anything". I'm saying "When you decide to borrow, try to do it with the understanding that you are borrowing something that is precious to someone else."
i'm not talking about the legal sense. nobody owns culture in any sense. ideas own themselves, they spread however they can.
when you think of the culture of england, what do you think of? victorian or edwardian ladies carrying parasols and fans while sipping tea? those things are chinese in origin. yet they are very much english. this is not theft. it's memetic evolution.
@neomp5 Again, please read my comments carefully - I'm NOT disagreeing with you in the way you seem to be assuming. I am not personally calling it theft (I am merely saying that I understand why some people do call it that), nor am I saying it shouldn't happen. And of course it happens all the time. Every modern religion, for example, is to some extent a hodgepodge of religions that came before - whether we're talking about Christianity or Neo-Paganism, it's all borrowing.
@ThirteenthMuse My point is just that some types of borrowing can be offensive, and it's not mere oversensitivity that makes it so. It's that sometimes we take a bit of someone's culture that is very deeply bound up with their beliefs and identity, and we turn it into a cartoon caricature. Can/should we stop people from doing this? In my opinion, no - we can't and shouldn't. But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't ask them to think about it a little more carefully before they do!
@neomp5 neo, you can argue semantics all day if you like, but it's getting a little dull on my end. Please notice that I have not argued with ANY of your neatly-packaged little definitions. All I have said, repeatedly, is that a little consideration would go a long way. Just because an action is permissible by a set of abstract rules, does not make that action a wise one or a respectful one. It's a "spirit of the law" versus "letter of the law" thing. Personally, I find legalism unproductive.
you're the only one talking about legality. i'm talking about memetics. ideas belong to no one but themselves. they are entities that reproduce and evolve, just as we are.
@neomp5 *sigh* Yes, neo. AGREED. They are. I have not said otherwise. Please look up the term "legalism" - it has a meaning beyond any concrete reference to law. Basically I'm saying that you're so focused on being correct that you're missing the human factor. And you're certainly so focused on being correct that you've somehow missed the fact that I'M NOT EVEN ARGUING WITH YOUR DEFINITIONS.
RE: borrowing, authenticity, ownership, artistic responsibility ...
Please watch the YouTube video called "'Toking' with Lawrence Welk'"
You'll be glad you did.
RoyZimmerman 1 year ago
Liked this interview Roy cheers mate.
mamolian 1 year ago
There is a problem at the point "taking only their music" point. Basis of the problem lies there. They are not "they" :)
For example naming "blues" as a "black music" is racist in a way. We are all homo sapiens sapiens, some of us have darker skin, some has blue eyes, some brown, some of us have curly hair, some of us dont. This is kinda silly way to look at who we are.
We are evolving so our culture, too.
ertansaygi 1 year ago
"I draw the line at having to be you in order for us to have a relationship."
I wish more people would understand that it's okay to draw that line. I wish people would stop thinking that we have to look, act, and think the same to love one another.
thescowlingschnauzer 1 year ago
Dear All -- The problem with cutting up an interview into 4 pieces is that one comment can be taken out of context. Please listen to the interview segment before this one (3/4) where Holly explicitly talks about not having to be part of a group to sing about that group (she's not a lesbian, but she sings lesbian songs; she's not a parent, but she sings about having children, she's not a farmworker, but ...) Holly's in an exquisite voice for conscious participation in the world.
RoyZimmerman 1 year ago
imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
2ndviolin 1 year ago
I get the message but in the end she's kind of arguing for a singing license that you have to earn before being allowed to sing a song from another culture, that's culture going the wrong way.
One usually gets to know a culture by hearsay, then you dabble in it, then maybe you get immersed in it. Arguing for the reverse is boneheaded.
rgzdev 1 year ago
@rgzdev the way I look at it is that I want to be damn sure I'm doing it "correctly" and to the best of my ability before I put it out there for everyone to see. I wouldn't say it's "being allowed" by some greater force or group but rather, like she says, doing the homework and then allowing yourself when its comfortable... You need to get immersed before you start showing off basically. I guess I tend to judge myself harshly, so I have a hard time understanding people who don't? Idk.
Wally773MTG 1 year ago
@Wally773MTG and of course that's why I say I get the message but artistic inspiration is very delicate bubble that pops under any form of enforcement of values... unless of course it gets inspired to subvert those values.
rgzdev 1 year ago
Holly is beautiful. I love these videos, Roy.
szrgirl 1 year ago
@TheAmazingBiped - There is also such a thing as under-analysis. Listen to the vid again - Holly is NOT saying: "How dare the white people sing the black people's music?" She's saying there needs to be a conscious effort to UNDERSTAND and empathize with the music one borrows. I remember as a child seeing the Lawrence Welk singers performing a "Negro Spiritual" and asking my parents why they were all smiling.
motaterztheone 1 year ago
There is such thing as over-analysis. This woman's focus is so heavily race-focused that she is a racist and doesn't even know it.
How dare the white people sing the black people's music? Seriously. What a load of crap.
TheAmazingBiped 1 year ago
@TheAmazingBiped its the same reason I would get pissed off if lil wayne covered or sampled a frank sinatra song or an opera piece and did it poorly. Thats the key word in there "...and sings a gospel song, POORLY." Being a HUGE fan of blues, motown/ R&B, funk, old school soul and gospel, jazz, african based music in general whilst being a white kid who sings in choirs...I have felt the same way SO many times. A year ago I had my choir had an african spiritual and a gospel piece. The whole time
Wally773MTG 1 year ago
@Wally773MTG Judge them on their performance, not the colour of their skin. Musical talent has nothing to do with skin colour. Dragging skin colour into every aspect of life is something racists do.
TheAmazingBiped 1 year ago
@TheAmazingBiped No no no, talent has nothing to do with this. Its musical taste and interpretation which has to do with culture/ social atmosphere and focus of musical education which in turn has EVERYTHING to do with skin color. Is it racist to say black culture is different than white culture? My point (and hers) is that black people typically do black music better than white people. When white people do black music poorly, other white people don't even notice let alone call them out on it...
Wally773MTG 1 year ago
@Wally773MTG
American liberals don't understand how racist they are and it's not for the reasons they think. The racism exhibited comes from hypersensitivity, over-analysis and something I could only describe as self loathing.
"Is it racist to say black culture is different than white culture?". YES. Absolutely YES. Because it is an extreme generalisation. It completely ignores the thousands of cultures that people with various skin colours do and can have.
TheAmazingBiped 1 year ago
Do you think isolated tribes of Aboriginal people living in central Australia have the same 'black culture'?
Do you think African American scientists in their late 50s have the same 'culture' as young African American gangsters in south central LA?
And guess what else you're doing. You completely preclude the possibility of white people being involved in this 'black culture' you speak of and black people being involved int his 'white culture' you speak of. Why? Because you're a racist.
TheAmazingBiped 1 year ago
@TheAmazingBiped HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ok dude, at some small level I agree with you/ can see where you are coming from but jesus you are stupid....please re-read your first reply from an hour ago and compare it to your second, see if you can find any contradictions (let me give you a hint, it involves hypersensitivity and over analysis). And wait a minute......are you calling me liberal!?!? Hahahahahaha thanks for the laugh
Wally773MTG 1 year ago
@Wally773MTG
Wow. Your best response is appeal to riducule fallacy. I'll take that as a win. Cheers.
TheAmazingBiped 1 year ago
@TheAmazingBiped Says the guy who calls everyone a racist due to his lack of comprehensive faculties? I work for the CTA, you know how many black people I know and like haha? Either way its not cus they are black that I like them or not, whatever the case may be. Oh wait is that why I am racist, cus I don't say 'African American' hahaha? You need to get out into the world and experience some stuff dude, and I wasn't "ridiculing" you when I said you contradict yourself...Nice non-answer though.
Wally773MTG 1 year ago
@Wally773MTG
"need to get out into the world and experience some stuff dude, and I wasn't "ridiculing" you when I said you contradict yourself"
No, that part was an outright lie. If it weren't you'd be able to point out exactly where I contradicted myself.
"Oh wait is that why I am racist, cus I don't say 'African American"
errr... wow. We've moved on to strawman fallacy. You're on fire
Why do American liberals tend to talk as if the only 'black' people are 'African Americans'.
TheAmazingBiped 1 year ago
@TheAmazingBiped I kept thinking "This sucks! No one is doing this stuff justice!" The way white people, as a culture, "feel" (and therefore do music) is way different than the way black people "feel" (and therefore do music). All you have to do is look at 17th and 18th century music in Europe and compare it to African music of the same time. COMPLETE difference of focus. Europe=melodic and harmonic complexity and beauty. Africa= Rhythm and unfettered passion. She hit the nail on the head here
Wally773MTG 1 year ago
"When they came for the Jews, I said nothing.
When they came for the gays, I said nothing.
and when they came for me, there was no one left to say anything."
That poem is on the back album cover of Olivia Records 1977 Lesbian Concentrate.
There is no label on my forehead. Only in my heart which reads...JUST LOVE.
lesbianconcentrate 1 year ago
@lesbianconcentrate What the hell happened from this comment on? I am confused.
womensmusicclassics 1 year ago
I recall that the poem ends with ".. and then they came for *me*... "
wesbr0 1 year ago
this is the first thing she's said that i totally disagree with. nobody owns culture. that's a very much racist concept.
neomp5 1 year ago
@neomp5 I disagree as well, but I wouldn't call it a "racist" concept. There are a lot of people who very genuinely worry about this kind of "theft" (the technical term is "cultural appropriation") particularly in the arts and in religion, and I can definitely understand the concern. After all, much of the time it is done disrespectfully and ignorantly by people who have no real interest in understanding the meaning of what they're taking and adapting for their own purposes. However...
ThirteenthMuse 1 year ago
@ThirteenthMuse ... I also wonder, might we not be worse off, in some ways, without this phenomenon? If we're mixing badly, if we're making all kinds of mistakes in our attempts to appreciate other cultures and enter into the spirit of someone else's world... isn't it still better than the opposite extreme of no mixing at all? Our worst errors are at least something to build on, which is better than nothing.
ThirteenthMuse 1 year ago
@ThirteenthMuse
but you're still assuming that these ideas belong to someone in the first place. without a copyright, an idea enters the meme pool and takes on a life of it's own, evolving as it goes from host to host. there's no stopping it. it belongs to no one but itself, it is in a sense alive.
what's the difference between a person from culture A incorporating aspects of culture B into his life without understanding them, and a person from culture B doing the same with his own culture?
neomp5 1 year ago
@neomp5 You are not reading my comments clearly. You're assuming that I believe things which I do not, in fact, believe. But what the hell - let's play with the argument as you seem to be construing it. The idea of "copyright" is a relatively modern invention of Western culture. In other words, it's easy for us to claim "But I didn't break the rules!" when we're the ones who MADE those rules. To many people, creation = ownership, and copyright has nothing to do with it.
ThirteenthMuse 1 year ago
@neomp5 To clarify my original statement: I agree that nobody "owns" culture in the strict legal sense. However, I still feel that it would be awfully nice if we were more respectful of other people's cultures. I'm not saying "Hands off, never borrow anything". I'm saying "When you decide to borrow, try to do it with the understanding that you are borrowing something that is precious to someone else."
ThirteenthMuse 1 year ago
@ThirteenthMuse
i'm not talking about the legal sense. nobody owns culture in any sense. ideas own themselves, they spread however they can.
when you think of the culture of england, what do you think of? victorian or edwardian ladies carrying parasols and fans while sipping tea? those things are chinese in origin. yet they are very much english. this is not theft. it's memetic evolution.
neomp5 1 year ago
@neomp5 Again, please read my comments carefully - I'm NOT disagreeing with you in the way you seem to be assuming. I am not personally calling it theft (I am merely saying that I understand why some people do call it that), nor am I saying it shouldn't happen. And of course it happens all the time. Every modern religion, for example, is to some extent a hodgepodge of religions that came before - whether we're talking about Christianity or Neo-Paganism, it's all borrowing.
ThirteenthMuse 1 year ago
@ThirteenthMuse My point is just that some types of borrowing can be offensive, and it's not mere oversensitivity that makes it so. It's that sometimes we take a bit of someone's culture that is very deeply bound up with their beliefs and identity, and we turn it into a cartoon caricature. Can/should we stop people from doing this? In my opinion, no - we can't and shouldn't. But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't ask them to think about it a little more carefully before they do!
ThirteenthMuse 1 year ago
@ThirteenthMuse
i'm saying it's not borrowing. "borrowing" indicates posession.
neomp5 1 year ago
@neomp5 neo, you can argue semantics all day if you like, but it's getting a little dull on my end. Please notice that I have not argued with ANY of your neatly-packaged little definitions. All I have said, repeatedly, is that a little consideration would go a long way. Just because an action is permissible by a set of abstract rules, does not make that action a wise one or a respectful one. It's a "spirit of the law" versus "letter of the law" thing. Personally, I find legalism unproductive.
ThirteenthMuse 1 year ago
@ThirteenthMuse
you're the only one talking about legality. i'm talking about memetics. ideas belong to no one but themselves. they are entities that reproduce and evolve, just as we are.
neomp5 1 year ago
@neomp5 *sigh* Yes, neo. AGREED. They are. I have not said otherwise. Please look up the term "legalism" - it has a meaning beyond any concrete reference to law. Basically I'm saying that you're so focused on being correct that you're missing the human factor. And you're certainly so focused on being correct that you've somehow missed the fact that I'M NOT EVEN ARGUING WITH YOUR DEFINITIONS.
ThirteenthMuse 1 year ago
@ThirteenthMuse
yet you keep talking about posession.
neomp5 1 year ago
I LOVE THE STARVING EAR.
kevin4peace 1 year ago