Religious Certainty vs Scientific Uncertainty, Ray Comfort vs Thunderf00t

[Naked4Jesus]

There is no such thing as scientific "certainty" since science is always tentative and open to new information which typically do not redefine previous theories but may offer additional insight to factor in. Religions never update their dogmatic doctrines and as a result are archaic systems based on myth and culturally obsolete, barbaric models of morality.

[tlaniganschmidt]

Christians don't even know their own History.Protestants(reformatio­n Christians) are so ignorant that they don't even know that the early Christians didn't carry Bibles around with them,because all those Epistles & Gospels were all over the place & books had to be written by hand...if they wanted to be anything like the early Christians they would become GreekOrthodox or Roman Catholics.There are no epistles to theAmericans but the Gospels were written in GREEK &there is an epistle toThe Romans.

[regularjoez]

Actually, the Christian only has one agenda.....to put the batteries back in your conscience and soften your heart to the fact that you are a sinner, I am a sinner, we are all sinners...that's why God sent His son to save us. Science is a valuable tool in the human hand, but the conscience and heart of man is much more revealing than the brain ever has been. JESUS does actually live, and you can know Him just like Ray Comfort Does. I was also an agnostic for 20+ years, but JESUS revealed truth

[anubis2814]

@regularjoez I have empathy for others and I am quite aware of what harm I have done to others, but you cannot begin learning unless you make mistakes. Our brains are wired to mess up. Also your heart really is the dumbest organ we have, its a collection of muscle. However if you are referring to emotion, emotion is really the most unreliable thing you can use to judge reality.  It is a drug rush that occurs no matter the religion and many times in love. Your past does not mean you are right.

[callumnik117]

@regularjoez the fact the christian has an agenda at all is exactly the problem; the way to get to the truth is to only have an agenda for the truth, not claim you already have it.

[ApostateltsopA]

Wow OK that PNAS site from a previous comment just made you my personal hero for at least the next week. Let me return the favor. The kind of christian you are describing is better referred to as a "HRWA" or High score in the Right Wing Authoritarian index. You can learn all about it by getting the PDF book free in googling 'The Authoritarians'.

[paradox0999]

you are very right, i love ur video

[OnlineStreamingVideo]

Redneck? Oh that's why you're religiously stupid lol.

[dricard365]

Right on dude! You called it. Fight that anxiety man we are with you.

[infectingthecrypts]

Great vid. My feelings exactly. I'm not even debating anyone and I got a headache and nausea listening to Comfort's bullshit and talking to myself. When I watch people like that talk, I yell at the TV/Computer and shake with rage like I have parkinsons. But, I guess that's just Satan taking over my soul in a time of separation from God. -_-

[cdpwhs]

Anubis2814 - In your video you said "Christians hate complicated, they like simple." It sounds like you are not too familiar with Christians like St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, G.K. Chesterton, John Paul II , Fulton Sheen (to name a few). Read some of their stuff and see if "Christian's like simple."

[anubis2814]

Actually I am quite familiar with several of those, and compared to actual science philosophy and neurology they are very trivial and simple. Mind you for their time a few of them were using the best resources they had. But many instead of using evidence would spend their brain power trying to start with an assumption aka the bible is true, and then try to twist the logic of reality around it. scientists have to do complex experiments and then sift through mounds of data then repeat.

[cdpwhs]

The objective truths of Christianity and natural law (both physical and moral) are not opposing realities. Understood properly, they are in harmony as they ultimately come from the same source. Brilliant Christian scientists (Fr. George Lemaitre, Pierre Duhem) and contemporary philosophers (Fr. Robert Spitzer) are a few examples of reasoned understanding of how Christian truth and the material world are in harmony. Sadly, a lot of "christians" lack this understanding. As do atheists.

[cdpwhs]

I suspect the Christians and the "brand of Christianity" you were exposed to were not very sophisticated. I further suspect those who taught you Christianity were sorely lacking in the epistemology of the natural and supernatural realms.

[anubis2814]

Oh no I was very well informed on how nature and religion worked, and it used quite a lot of thinking and logic. Sadly it have very limited knowledge as you can make any argument valid with logic assuming neither of you have the correct level of knowledge. Even if god is supernatural he would leave a lot of evidence for his existence of which there has been none other than looking at the material universe and use confirmation bias that it proves god done it.

[cdpwhs]

Care to give me an example of "how well informed u were on how nature and religion worked." With all due respect, I have my doubts that u were properly trained in science, philosophy, and ORTHODOX Christian understanding of the symbiotic relationship between faith and reason. This is evident by the way u speak of the kind of Christians u were raised with. I think u may have been short changed.

Also, U mentioned Dawkins. May I suggest u read: Answering The New Atheism, by Hanh and Wiker.

[anubis2814]

So which ORTHODOX(meaning right thinking, and everyone else is wrong) did you follow because I'm confused. I don't know where you are coming from on this and what you call the correct version. Faith is belief without evidence, the only people who tell you that's a good thing outside of religion are politicians and con artists. I don't have enough time to read up on all of the science and understanding stuff we do know as opposed to reading something made to justify faith in something made up

[anubis2814]

To get you mind around how much more complex and exact a scientist has to be over a theologian (who can say whatever he likes because there is no peer review process in the religious world) go to pnas (dot) org it is a free scientific journal site that has so much compressed information and controls to prevent confirmation bias that it is mind blowing. Most people don't have any idea how science is done and get a watered down version by news sources or text books.

[slycooper112]

@cdpwhs Yeah faith and reason do have a symbiotic relationship, faith is the parasite that is using reason in a way that harms/ will kill it, but don't worry, reason will find a way to remove this parasite and end the symbiotic relation

[Hirotoro4692]

@anubis2814 I don't normally comment on year-old videos but this one i disagree strongly with.

You mention how non-creationists use 'bullying tactics' and only care about making you seem wrong. You even say they have no interest in learning (utter crap) and shortly afterwards you say Ray ignored all of TF's points - which to my eyes seems like 'no interest in learning' . So, in other words if you creationists refuse to learn, don't go accusing others of refusing to learn.

[Hirotoro4692]

@Hirotoro4692 in a nutshell, no matter what is said and done, some people are so dead-set in their beliefs that NOTHING will so much as sway them. The entire debate was of course moot because no side is going to convince the other they are right. Such stubbornness is in our nature, and only a fool refuses to see both sides of an argument - Ray, as I recall, did such a thing.

How can you prove the bible tells the truth? Faith alone is not proof. At least science does research

[CBALLEN]

Thunderfoot didn't have any logical arguments at all.

[anubis2814]

Thats the thing thuderf00t wanted a discussion, Comfort wanted an argument, and he used "thank you for smoking" tactics. Thuderf00t was being way too nice.

[mmfhl]

why is debate necessary? we are all entitled to our beliefs. i believe this is why TF didn't go for the kill. he respects mr. comfort's right to believe what he does, even if he does not understand the basis for his beliefs. that same sentiment was clearly not returned, in my observation.

[anubis2814]

Mostly because of what happened on 9/11 and because Comfort believes that secularism is wrong and our nation should be a theocracy. If what someone believes doesn't effect me, I'm ok with that but misinformation and illogical thinking never ever just effects one person.

[PatRibsey]

good points - all good points. This is one of the few sensible videos I've seen! My only problem is your generalisation of the term "christian" to mean "fundementalist creationist" (most chritians are evolutionists, including the entire catholic church!) but I can see why you adopted that language

[macthornberg]

Great vid. You are a credit. Cheers

[skywanderer42]

excellent

[itsgk]

Great video, deserves more views.

[grungefreak10]

I know exactly what you mean. I have flame-warred incessantly with a lot of hard-headed creat-ards. I won't give their names because I refuse to give those clowns any publicity.

I have found that it is like going up against a highly skilled lawyer; don't expect to win just because you are right. They just have that much ready-made spin to try to justify their stands.

[vonVlunt]

There's plenty of reasons that I can think of to debate zealots.  Ex-zealots are great examples.

[anubis2814]

I would have to agree, however you have to be very careful to pick your battles and expect for it to take years to make any headway and a lot of frustration. Thats what it took to de-convert me

[kokobaboko]

There is no reason to debate religious zealots. Their beliefs are utterly ridiculous and as a result their argument doesn't need to be debated because their position is bullshit. It's is the same as debating a staunch flat-earth proponent. They are truly mentally ill. Religion is brainwashing and does mental injury. The only way to cure somebody from that damage they have to admit they are ill and want help. There is no other way to cure a mentally ill person.

[VarialProductions]

Dude keep up the great fucking work!!!

[zarkoff45]

Whoa! That was harsh! -- but I think you're right on target as far as fundamentalists. (Though not all Christians are fundies.)

I think you should debate Ray Comfort. Better you that me, but I've got some advice:

/watch?v=Pq8S0R25vy4

/watch?v=Bkvou9Y1sOo

[kokobaboko]

Not all christians are fundies. All that says to me from where I sit is, not all KKK members are Hitler.

[zarkoff45]

Google bishop John Shelby Spong.

[kokobaboko]

I don't need to, I did a term paper on his book Living in Sin? A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality.

[EriolTolkien]

Well Put Sir. Them theists is sneaky bastages :D

[anubis2814]

Love the name btw, My favorite book is the Silmarillion. NERD!!! Haha

[nagativecreep97]

Wonderfully put! You hit the nail on the head!

[sorienor]

Awesome! I've never been even the tiny bit religious so I do know the "beating your head against a wall" feeling very well. Every time I see my brother, as a matter of fact.

Maybe if I didn't say hello by going "so give up that zombie jew on a stick death cult yet?". Not sure though..:)

[yecSlayer]

Nice vid man, spot on.

[AtheosEthos]

* * * * *

Thank you for sharing your story.

I can relate on many points.

[anubis2814]

you are right. Its been proven that just like maternal love and infatuation, having an authority figure around makes parts of your brain shut down and you stop thinking for yourself. This is quite a brain drug otherwise people wouldn't do it.

[ebbixx]

Ditto what others have said. I had to stop watching after video 3... it's just too painful to watch a Christian who thinks he has a lock on salvation because he can keep condescending to someone. Ray did demonstrate pretty clearly where Christian misogyny and related pathology comes from. Ray (and any proselytizer) tend to come from a firm belief for which no evidences needed or wanted, and they truly believe they might be the key to your eternal salvation. (cont'd)

[ebbixx]

They are, in effect, impersonating their anthropomorphic God when they're doing that. It's an intoxicating place to be, probably more effective for some than any strictly chemical opiate. Why would anyone think they could rationally "win" a debate with some one who is "high" in that way?

[TLSlayer]

5 stars at only 58 seconds.

christians are the abSOULution of ignorance,if they considered FACTS,religion would dissolve.

[shadroth]

I can relate to this point of view 100%. I agree that Thunderf00t is excellent at what he does: tearing apart the pseudo-science of creationism, but he just doesn't seem to understand the mind of a Christian. A scientist is at a debate to have an honest exchange of ideas. A Christian is at a debate for one reason ONLY: to convert you! A Christian is not interested in what you have to say ... only in what they have to tell you.

[inmyheart313131]

Wonderful points!

[Dreki8]

I can't understand where ppl who were raised religious are coming from, but I can relate to the astonishment that TF must have felt with Comfort.  The man is simply stupid, and TF is so much smarter, TF had to bring Comfort to his level before they could debate anything, and Comfort had no intention of ever becoming that educated.

[ebbixx]

It's a conflict of values. Ray's points are coming to him whether he "wins" a debate or not on logical grounds. He is "witnessing" to someone whose soul he regards as "at risk." He sees himself as a sort of spiritual "EMT" -- follow the process and move on. He may also, in a perverss way, see TF as engaging in some "sin" of intellectual pride, which is often the view that fuels anti-intellectual feeling among some Christians. They were simply talking past one another.

[lc237]

Excellent explanation. I subd and added this video as a favorite. Im looking forward to checking your must see subscriptions. This video is particularly valuable for great information on how Christians think and debate, if you can call their nonsense debating or thinking. Messing with your head is exactly what happens. My own deconversion was aided by studying comparative religion and the origins and evolution of religion from ancient belief systems before the Judeo-Christian religions.

[rgzdev]

+5 Insightful

[enigmatically]

thanks for this review. TF did the best he could given the circumstances, he could have gotten angry or hostile, but I was pleased that he kept his cool.

I think you're right, TF seems like never was force-fed religion like the rest of us. Plus he didn't seem to have much experience interviewing whereas Ray is constantly going on TV and "ministering" to people.

[1PercentRDA]

I agree

[funderkitty07]

Thank you