Did an Invisible Gov't of Elites Get George Bush Elected?

[Erica06011982]

Yeah we all know that the Bushes brought the election, how could you not when the hold up in Florida took place & all the dead voters that were on the ballot. Talk about a favor for a favor to fuck the whole country.

[IckyThump101]

cenk is a fool

[Reqrezentin]

Fuck Cenk

[Reqrezentin]

Cenk is such a moron in this.

He's using facts. We have to shape the story ourselves.

[Scarpsad]

@Reqrezentin

ROFL

[ace76543]

that was a great debate

"this is why i think there is an invisible government. this is my evidence"

"ehhhhhh i don't know"

[upplsuckimcool16]

Cenk COME ON!!! You talk about how corporations own this country ALL THE TIME.... You talk about how bush got elected when he shouldn't have ALL the time.........

I don't understand the dissidence you're having... You talk about this shit all he time..... so when it gets a little bit deeper you're uncomfortable with it??? I don't understand......

[GGLebo23]

Oh Cenk my friend can you really be so naive? I implore you to take a look at the Milgram study on authority and the Asch study of conformity. With some common sense and a little knowledge of CIA activities in 3rd world countries it becomes all too clear that organized evil is very much possible at any point of history. Human beings havnt evolved. Not saying you should latch on to "conspiracy" w/o any concrete proof, but why not keep an open mind b4 u label that theory ludicrous?

[GGLebo23]

Think about. If such things did transpire unbenounced to the public at large, how the hell would we obtain the concrete facts to prove these types of things? Who is going to report actions we have never seen? Fox News?

[jamwaters]

Al Feldman didn't auger in ...

Lorenzo from "Texas Air"? ... then Eastern. Ebhers at "WorldCom" started at the Hattiesberg Days Inn. Days Inn itself involved in the Tokars RICO and the "Interfereon" matters over at PFE.

Robert E. "Lee" Turner - ... it's twoo, it's twoo.

to the naysayers, "You'd think by now you'd have a brain to get the message"

[mabomusiu]

Couldn't give a @#*&! what the whiney kinder garden amateur interviewer thinks. Irritating F*@k. He needs to shaddup and spare us his brown nose skepticsm.

Amateur-rich kid stink wafts clear from TYT.

[uberster]

russ baker, get to the fucking point man!, you sound like shitless and bullshit

[CosmicSeaman]

God...get to your point and stop advertising your book you clown.

[Origen305]

This guy is not Alex Jones yet Jenk is happy to agree with him until he points the same criticism of Bush, onto Obama, at that point he becomes a conspiracy theorist. Who but the military-industrial complex could 'force' Obama into comitting 40k+ troops to a war with no clear strategy. Unless the goal is to ethnically cleanse the Pashtun there will always be "Taliban" in Afghanistan. All the while the CIA seem most interested in managing the opium trade through Karzai's brother...! ref TYT!

[zacky89]

Obama was grasroot.

no way he could become president if he didnt

was a community organizer.

something called neighbor to neighbor.

and good speeches, was a recipee.

plus, getting help from alot of afro-american celebrities, who wanted to see a black man as a president.

even P diddy interviewed him 4 years ago.

[Origen305]

Agreed, Don't get me wrong, Obama is a breath of fresh air compared to 8 years of Bush and I don't even live in the US. But, you still have the Patriot act, equivocation on the public option, Gitmo still doing business, swapping one war (Iraq) for another (Afghanistan), a cabinet stuffed with Wall-Street interests etc. I have heard many fine words and speaches from Obama, but little in the way of action, which leads me to wonder, can ANY president, deliver on promises counter to status quo?

[miguelin97223]

They can deliver, but they can also get a bullet or two in the head for doing it. Looks like Obama chose life instead of bullets... Guess he wasn't like JFK & Lincoln after all.

[HomleandSecurity]

Because Obama will be impeached in 2010 after real Americans take the Congress.

[miguelin97223]

Democrats ARE real Americans, as are Republicans. Instead of demanding to see everyone's birth certificate, maybe you guys should read a couple books about honest disagreements. And impeachment? For what?! Starting a war under false pretenses? Oh no... I guess that would be George Bush.

[HomleandSecurity]

No, democrat are not real Americans. Real Americans demand a birth certificate because we believe in the Constitution. Obama refuses to abide by the Constitution, he messed up his oath of office, and thus he must be impeached. We almost got Clinton, and we will not rest until we get the Kenyan illegal immigrant.

[alaynak123]

Don't bother with people who spurt out crazy theories with no factual evidence, and can't even spell the name of a government entity he adores correctly. Yes, that would be YOU, "homleand security".

[Origen305]

I think Jenk was out of order laballing this guy with "conspiracy", particularly as he has not read the book. Jenk is prepared to accept the historical evidence of non-Democratic power structures influencing US foreign, economic and domsetic policy but seems to think such malign influences have waned. One only has to look at the rhetocial flair that was Obama's narrative of hope, and compare it with his 'volte-face' on so many key issues to realise something is holding one hand behind his back.

[rjbonacolta]

It's spelled "Cenk"

[finchfonch]

i think what the discusiion was interesting. Not sure who to side with, but i have an open mind with what Russ was saying

[yourmajezty]

elite? this is bullshit.

theres no elite government.

[HomleandSecurity]

"Did an Invisible Gov't of Elites Get George Bush Elected?"

No. The American people elected him. Twice.

We would have elected him a third time if it wasn't for the Unconstitutional amendment limiting our choice.

George W Bush is still our leader, in our hearts. He forever shall be.

[LegendaryFrost]

I hope you are trolling. George Bush Jr. was possibly the worst president we have ever had and definately the worst in the pass 50 years.

[finchfonch]

if you think he's a leader in your heart, your a moron

[dangerouslytalented]

He won Florida by 500 votes. Not much of a mandate. Oh, and his numbers were down to the teens by the end.

[JayPhilosopher]

Baker sounds quite informed. I think Cenk should listen to him more carefully.

[yourmajezty]

sounds, sounds, sounds..... just because someone sounds informed doenst mean they are informed asshole.

[DJuggz06]

Thank you russ! You have done the world a great service!

[piotrezzz]

Funny that Cenk boldly cries out that Limbaugh is the de facto rep. leader and this is how it works, but when light is cast on the extreme shadiness existing in the higher-up power base, he calls THAT conspiracy-theory? (with the you're-ridiculous-connotation)­, despite actually being thoroughly documented .. which the Limbaugh thing isn't.

The controversial Alex Jones -love him or hate him- has been pointing out this top level corruption for many years now.

[dangerouslytalented]

Alex Jones takes a few carefully selected facts and weaves them into bullshit.

[kenzaburo]

Wow - this guy is really defensive. I bet he got beat up a lot in high school.

[matereymate]

I really agree with Cenk on a lot of things, and TYTs are great

BUT in this interview in MY opinion Cenk was a complete asshole

not because he didn't agree on some things

but the way he just labeled this guys research as 'conspiracy theories'

really.......just weak reasoning, and I actually find it WEIRD because cenk is supposed to be progressive, bla bla you connect the dots........

just.....it made me uncomfortable

[415jdookie]

I believe Cenk has to separate himself from "conspiracies" to keep TYT valid to non-liberals. But that being said I think its dangerous to downplay the "vague influences" that are corrupting our govt. I mean the fact that I never hear about how shady the 2000 election was anymore is disheartening. It's like we dont even care. I mean why even vote? I sincerely hope that at least Americans remember this as an example of what we know our govt is capable of, Imagine what we dont know

[Amy31415]

There are plenty of us "non-liberals" who understand about all the vague (and blatant) forces at work that corrupt our government and the election process.

Part of the key in getting our country back is to reject those stupid notions of partisanship that divide us, give up the ridiculous racism, classism, sexism, etc.

These puppetmasters don't care about anything but how much they can milk out of us. Obama might be a good guy, but anyone who thinks he's independent is blind.

[415jdookie]

Nicely put. And I didn't mean to sound like a die-hard liberal. Don't get me wrong i have very liberal views but I'm not too keen on labels. Who's to say I won't agree with conservatives from time to time. Fuck political parties, we should always do what's best for all Americans. Again thanks for the insight.

[dEdGrimley]

Agreed. Also as a Progressive, I've always liked Robert Gates. I like to say that appointing Robert Gates was the biggest screw up GW made - appointing someone competent.

[fivebythree]

You moronic Americans voted for him!! TWICE! Regardless of the elections being rigged etc etc.

[IntractableJ]

It was less Americans voting for him than the wiser Americans not voting at all.

[finchfonch]

i would argue that the election was rigged, but the fact it was so close that rigging was needed shows how dumb our country is

[WellIAMScottish]

Cenk, Cenk, Cenk..... You've really got to get over calling ideas that make you uncomfortable "conspiracy theories". Don't you realize that was a propaganda term used by George W Bush and FOX to silence any dissent? Why are you still holding on to that bait. I like you, dude, but you really need to rethink using the term "conspiracy theories", it hurts your credibility.

[bricitybrac]

This dude has talked to Alex Jones.

I don't care if you write for The Nation, you talk to Alex Jones and you become a joke with 0 credibility.

[jxsilicon9]

Sounds like this guy should lay off the peyote. Are powerful interests influencing the government? Of course and they don't really make a secret out of it. Lobbyists,campaign donations,etc. Are they sitting in a dark room deciding everything like in a bad spy movie? No.

[Nades129]

Cenk, I think Gore Vidal wrote a book. Along with a congressman or something

[RaminHAL9001]

This guy is 100% conspiracy theorist -- he uses their language and everything: "wellemme askyou this...!" he says like 20 times. Every time Cenk starts saying "I'm skeptical" he gets really defensive and changes the subject, and he doesn't ever answer the question, "why did they choose Bush", he just says, "hey this is documented that these people control everything, ask the people in power!" Its as transparent as glass, he's a conspiracy theorist.

[audadvnc]

Russ, it's great that you put out this book, but most of this is old news. Of course the PTB is running the show. You say you were surprised by this? I'm impressed about the Bob Woodward line.

[sebisthebestyes]

cenk let him talk

[miguelin97223]

wtf Cenk?! way to beat down on a very possible scenario.

i guess until Huffington Post makes a youtube video about it, Cenk won't consider hte possibility that Bush stole the election.

tyt is still good, but lately, if it's not already on the Huffington Post, Cenk will never cover it here with an open mind.

ditto on the 9/11 argument with Jesse Ventura.

[eirefrance]

Yeah, except far-out claims require some pretty extensive proof. Any claim, be it a 9/11 conspiracy or a shadow govt, is only speculation. You may like the 9/11 cospiracies yourself, but its a fact that many of the arguments for conspiracies have been debunked. Maybe not all of them, but enough that asking someone to agree with you is asking them to ignore what they've learned for the sake of sensationalism.

[miguelin97223]

Earth rotates around the Sun.

Smallpox-infected blankets given to Native Americans.

Tuskegee Syphilis Study.

Watergate break-in.

Iran-Contra Affair.

CIA blacksites.

To paraphrase Barack Obama and Deval Patrick before him: JUST conspiracy theories?!

Yes, some habitual early adopters of conspiracy theories are intellectually dishonest. But what bothers me about you early rejectors is that you always denigrate people ahead of time just because their view is unpopular.

[eirefrance]

I denigrated noone in what I said. If you're offended because I and others don't agree with you, well, the world isn't here to hold your hand. The difference is that the things you mention presented evidence. As I said, a lot of 9/11 conspiracy "evidence" has been rejected many times by many different groups. In the face of that "early adopters" are not guided by the evidence but rather by a very attractive fallacy: conspiracies are simple, succinct and interesting.

[miguelin97223]

But don't you see how SOMEBODY had to investigate those things to prove them? They did start out as conspiracy theories. People were laughed at if they mentioned them, or in some cases killed. I am not saying that you have to join this group or that. And I agree that you are not directly denigrating anyone. But you are dismissive of them, no? What I'm suggesting is that a live & let live attitude is better. Once Cenk brought this guy on, he could have done a better interview.

[djzacmaniac]

WTC 7 points to something fishy. Also, no video of the pentagon crash has been released. What about all of the video from major news networks documenting the explosions, both in eyewitness accounts, and in actual audio, coming from WTC1 and 2? At the very least, the whole story has not been told.

[HerbertHKohl]

The Earth orbits the sun, it doesn't rotate around it.

[miguelin97223]

That is a very important distinction. Thank you.

[lawtek711]

I agree moreover, we KNOW there are conspiracys, the problem is, we often times refer to them as business deals- we have grown accustomed to these things, as if it is 2nd nature. If we recognize that businesses and lobbyists control this country, arent we already acknowledging that conspiracy exists? Now, isnt this exactly what this guest is referring too? You cannot say; congressmen are controlled by lobbyists and then disregard the word conspiracy!

[TheNeocatZone]

I'm actually happy to see that there's quite a lot of people here in the comments standing up for Baker. The word of the day is indeed 'naive'. If Cenk thinks that the criminals in the upper echelons of society are not as likely to engage in conspiracy as the criminals in the lower echelons are, then he is indeed being naive.

[TheNeocatZone]

P.S. However, I am getting ever so tired of Alex Jones being associated with this stuff.

[lawtek711]

I absolutely agree! Plus, I want to hear the guest. You know, Cenk is starting to have the same problem that news anchors do: Let the guest speak! We are not watching just to see the TYT team; we are watching for relevant news and want to actually hear what a guest has to say! Its ok to give us your opinion, but not at your guests expense. Let the man talk!

[TheNeocatZone]

I might argue that Cenk wasn't AS bad as the mainstream anchors, but having a knee-jerk dismissive reaction toward everything that has the term 'conspiracy' in it without finding out if it's based in some fact certainly doesn't do him any good. And what's so hard to believe? Cenk himself has exposed the bullshit the corporatocracy pulls all the time! Why is Baker's expose' such a stretch?

[Drey4ltur]

too true.

Russ Baker knocked it out of the park, the only tiny detail was that this info *has* come out before, about Bush HW being employed by the CIA.

But overall, this just fed my irritation towards Cenk.

I remember Jesse Ventura yelling at him on the show about 9/11 evidence, and all Cenk could reply is that he'd seen "Screw Loose Change", which is actually a bullshit hatchet job.

[Mattey10101]

the thing about a conspiracy is it has no factual evidence to support it. Only hearsay and unreliable sources can support it. If you went to law school all your life it might be hard to buy into any conspiracy theory. I think Cenk was a law student?

[miguelin97223]

@ Mattey10101: yes, Cenk went to law school. but that alone should not excuse this strange aversion to conspiracy theories even before the case is made. I don't know anything about Russ Baker except this interview, but he made a really good observation at the end - - many people, sadly including Cenk, put up a wall and ignore even fact-based arguments just by attaching "conspiracy theory" as a pejorative label. If asked to investigate the CIA in 1954, I think I know which side Cenk would take

[TheNeocatZone]

[[[the thing about a conspiracy is it has no factual evidence to support it.]]]

That's a bit of a broad statement, Mattey. If it were literally true, the act of conspiracy would be an ontological impossibility. Don't get stuck up in the smoky-room connotation of the word; you don't need EVERYONE to be in on it to run a conspiracy.

[MajDigi]

That's ridiculous. That's like saying "the thing with science is it has no factual evidence to support it". Yeah, *bad* science, but good science does. There are some good conspiracy theories, and some bad ones, but that's not an indictment of all theories reliant on there being conspiring parties. After all, we all accept that Ahmadinjad is not the real ruler of Iran, and that there is an undemocratic power behind the thrown, but suddenly when it's your own country it's ridiculous?

[Drey4ltur]

yeah i was gonna monologue about it and scream, LOL...

but the amount of bright people replying in support of Russ and telling Cenk off has lifting my spirits :D

[lawtek711]

Cenk: i agree with last comment - You aren't listening - the man says that he says he has facts, lets hear him out. Plus, if you agree with what he has mentioned in the past, there is a definate reason to listen to his opinion. If we do not know where we came from, we do not know where we are going. Plus cenk, you disagreed with him without having facts to back your opinion. Lets hear him out!

[pharg86]

come on Cenk! hes not talking about conspiracies! you didnt even listen to him..love tyt but that interview was annoyin

[fuckinglogin]

cenk's always been naive about this shit

[DrQuijano]

That's because he loves the idea of America too much, as we all do.

[Drey4ltur]

exactly! i love the TYT show, i watch everyday...

but i just filter Cenk out when he starts talking about how he knows all about hidden agendas/etc.

clueless.

[sidvidle]

WOW, I never saw Cenk in such denial! It was like he just was going la la la la la la!!! I can't hear you! Cenk, they have MORE power now... Sad but true, as long as we try to marginalise anybody saying the truth and dismissing it as ''conspiracy'', we will never get to the bottom of this! Take the blinders off on this issue and be pragmatic not; this is so horrible that it cannot be... Come on man, we know you're naive about stuff but you can't about this, our nations' sovereignties is dying.

[DrQuijano]

You have to think about WHY Cenk is going "lalala". The Oligarchy (or however you want to call the Rockefellers, Aldrich, Fords, and so on) certainly seems to have MORE power now than before (specially through new-money corporations) but they are slipping further and further back into the shadows. People used to think "the Rockefellers want to own us", now they think "Microsoft wants to track us and Warren Buffet wants our money", but it seems to me that behind these new monies there is the old

[sidvidle]

Yes! Exactly... We, in turn, should be ever more so vigilant, don't you think?

The age of innocence has past, no? Like in the 20s, oh wait... didn't the Depression change that? LOL, I didn't mean to be so aggressive with Cenk, it just boggles my mind when we try to uphold the basic values of our societies when that time no longer exists. We must look into any new and ''strange'' patterns of wealth w/the old. They go hand in hand, as you pointed; the old monies would have to ''allow'' it, no?

[TheGiantRobot]

Haha, Cenk, ever the optimist. Look at the world, it's always been corrupt. Our government has been deeply corrupted at least since the atomic bomb. It's not more transparent. Why would it suddenly change? Why would people just give up all that power?

I find nothing out of the ordinary in any of these allegations. There's nothing extraordinary about conspiracy.

[logoth80]

it is corrupted. but corrupted politicians can serve us.

like russian revolution. it didnt make russian system better, but western european politicians, in fear of geting killed, reformed ;)

[TheGiantRobot]

I could see that happening. Things are already starting to collapse. That collapse also means collapse of power relationships. If enough holes start showing before the whole thing goes down, maybe we can snap out of it and save ourselves.

[ogjimkenobi]

Damn, I went into this whole thing thinking "wow, this Russ Baker dude's got some serious credentials and he sounds pretty smart, maybe his book has got some true shit in it that really has been covered up."

Then by the end of the interview Mr. Baker had let his facade of sanity slip just far enough to reveal him to be another run of mill conspiracy nutjob.

And then as I'm typing I look over and see him on Alex Jones in the related videos.

Nutjob case closed.

[sidvidle]

Don't shoot the messenger. in a whirlwind of lies, the ppl who speak the truth ''seem'' crazy because they are saying the exact opposite of what we have been raised to believe and take as gospel... Do not mistake certainty for insanity, is all I'm saying. See? You didn't even get to the end of the vid let alone actually READ the book to verify the validity of his statements and documentation, before you just judged him.

[ecwaufisxtreme]

Dubya is Sarah Palin's DICKLESS and BALLESS BITCH and PUSSY! Palin is a SUPERIOR politician and statesman than Dubya could ever be. She is also MORE MAN than he is for Dubya wears the skirt in his family while Laura wears the pants! Even the twins are MORE MAN than he is!

[BerryJoy]

sad sad world

[Thenigma000]

Cenk's slip "Banana Republicans" is actually a real book about the republican party.