In many different stories there will be a constant. Usually a character that can be seen as somewhat of a catalyst for others characters development. I've always felt that True Grit is about Mattie being the constant, and observing from her eyes how she affects the people (Rooster and LaBoeuf) around her. It's an interesting take, as you would expect the character of a grizzled old man to be the constant, and for the girl to change.
I've always found it interesting and enjoy that aspect of it.
The movie's attitude towards suffering and brutality is more than anything due to the fact that it's a Cohen brothers movie. And actually this movie is a step up for them - in the past they've played suffering and brutality for laughs, and they often seem to have contempt for their characters. So while your points about a male-centered world are correct, not all male filmmakers are in the Cohen brothers league when it comes to this kind of portrayal.
Now, my next qualm is that Zoe is not just a recast of a male role. She is very much a woman. In Heart of Gold, she and Wash argue over having a baby, and she frequently shows emotion. The reason she's not gushing all the time is that she is working. She is the Captain's 2nd in command. She feels a need to be professional. She's also a soldier, which simply reinforces her professionalism.
You had me agreeing (overall) until you mentioned women being "recast" in typical male roles. The issue with this statement is that almost ALL roles are traditionally male. One of the most groundbreaking roles was that of Uhura in the original Star trek. She was not only 4th in command (unheard of at the time for a woman) but she was also the linguistics specialist. So first in her field, and 4th overall on the ship.
I really loved this film, and you made very valid points. She does have some steriotypically male attributes, but I don't think that should undermine the fact she is strong, independant and smart. Also this is set in the old wild west, so you could look at it as the only way she can get what she wants is to act like a man. I agree she's not a feminist archetype, but it was refreshing to have a non sexualised female main character who is not defined by the male characters surrounding her.
Also, just as a point of film-literary accuracy, the Coen Brothers have been well documented as saying that their version of True Grit is NOT a remake of the John Wayne film, but another interpretation of the original novel (one, in fact, that they have endeavored to more accurately chronicle the novel's true spirit and storyline.
I think there is an unfortunate misappropriation of ideas here, suggesting that a feminist must be, by her nature "feminine", and that certain roles are to be taken as masculine or feminine behavior. However, would it not be said that this is the very sociopolitical construct being challenged by modern feminism? Is it not the fight of feminist around the world to have women treated equally and have all roles and jobs open to them? Feminists fight for women to be treated equally in the military
@RavFlight76 I am in no way implying that to be feminist you must be "feminine" I am making the case that we have a very binary way of looking at gender roles within society and in the media and that our society and media value roles identified as masculine over those identified as feminine. I'm not saying that inherently one is better then the other but that we should look at and revaluate traits in terms of being positive vs negative instead of masculine vs feminine.
noticed the screen capture of Kill Bill and thought that was a very interesting movie to bring up. What are your thoughts on The Bride from those movies? because on the one hand, yes she basically kills things with a sword the whole time, but females are the strong role present, and yet the bride and verdita green both care immensely for their daughters.
they;re warrior women, sure, but they're also mothers. I would think that fits in with your definition of feminist characters, but i'm notsure
I have to disagree on Mattie not showing any emotion at all. Yes, she IS affected by the violent deaths on her journey (she even admits it in a scene), yes, she DOES show weakness (in the cave, when being beaten and when being kidnapped), yes, she DOES show feelings (crying for her beloved horse, 25 years later for Cogburn). She is NOT emotional cold. She is a strong, tough female character with lots of courage, also showing weakness and being naive and, sometimes, being too trusting.
I believe it is also important to mix those stereotypical "masculine" and "feminine" traits. Mattie could be expressive about the loss of her father and still believe in the death penalty and violence. There are many women who believe in the death penalty and who participate in 'male' sports, but they are no less feminine. Even in Kill Bill, the character B was struggling with the loss of her daughter and the emotional tie she had to a man who she loved, but lived for violence at the same time.
True Grit does explore the morality of corporal punishment, it's not through character growth. Mattie did everything to kill her father's killer, threw away compassion, bull dozed everything in her path, and stopped at nothing to get what she desired. In the end, she got her man, but it destroyed her in the process. She sacrificed her compassion in order to take a life and it took it's toll as she wound up alone and socially distant from the world. It's a morality play of what vengeance gets us.
I would disagree a bit on some of your points. Both Zoe and Mattie have logical, character-driven reasons for their attitudes toward violence. Zoe is a soldier and a revolutionary and most of her interaction with others on the show is based upon that aspect of her life because that's her uniform - her public face. Mattie lives in the a rough environment, where corporal punishment is the norm. She upholds a patriarchal norm, yes, because that's the only concept of society she has access to.
@kyriathalia but if your character doesn't evolve out of that, or even start making ripples to identify that then how is that any different then all the other characters/stories that replicate patriarchal norms?
As a man who considers himself a feminist ally, I was pleased at Mattie Ross's portrayal in this version, having seen the original. You make very valid points regarding her being a very static character. However, she is the focal point in which numerous characters re-examine their life, and most likely, their viewpoints on gender. LaBeouf and Rooster, certainly, but even Lucky Ned Pepper is impressed and taken aback by Mattie's wit, and that doubtlessly affects the way he treats her.
I liked this review. Well-done. However, regarding the lack of growth in Mattie's character ... I tend to disagree. Falling into that hole was symbolic of Mattie's descent into all that is wrong. The snakes ... whatever it symbolizes ...Mattie is clearly bitten by that evil. She is rescued, in more ways than 1, but Rooster. But not unscathed. The loss of the arm..is where the evil streak ended. Lots of growth...highly symbolic.
I'm going to have to disagree with you in regards to Uma Therman's The Bride/Beatrix Kiddo character from Kill Bill. She showed a ray of emotions throughout the movies, more so in Vl. 2. Even when she finally got her revenge, she was crying. Just as she was cold and ruthless, she was just as affectionate and loving. At the end of the story, you can tell that she changed as well.
People in the Old West couldn't afford to be affected by brutality, death, or the suffering of others, and capital punishment was necessary to discourage murder, as well as to prevent murderers from murdering again. Being emotionally reserved and unaffected by violence allows calmer, more reasoned thinking. One can be both cold and moral.
She doesn't change at the end of the movie but remember Batman Forever when Bruce Wayne asks Dick Grayson where do you go after revenge? Bruce Wayne didn't change after he had his revenge against the Joker.
I think that in this case, expecting Mattie to challenge the violent culture she lives in would destroy the narrative. It's a Western - you could also argue that her hell-bent focus on revenge and violence IS her major character flaw, if you wanted to look at it that way.
I enjoy your series and agree that Mattie doesn't have a complex character arc like Rooster does, but I really loved watching her on screen, and thought she emoted with nuance and subtlety.
You point out that these people in True Grit live "in a harsh and unforgiving land." Then you claim (correctly) that Mattie et al don't express any real emotion. Wouldn't that be fitting with their surroundings? Would scenes of Mattie questioning herself and her mission have made the movie better? I don't know, but I'd like to see that too. I'd also like an answer for stmsrachel's question, I wanna know some feminist movie characters so I broaden my horizons.
OK, but the 1st reason why Mattie Ross doesn't seem to evolve as a character does not explain why she couldn't be a feminist. Just the 2nd reason does that.
Trinity?? Really?? She's in love with Neo, while still being a tough fighter with the strength to carry on through death and destruction like most female characters don't. She cried when Neo was dying then gathered herself together and went in to save his ass. That's great for either gender character. showing the emotion, but making them tough enough to keep fighting. Perfect action hero, not so cold you can't connect, but tough enough for the plot. perfect.
I'm not sure I understand - are you saying that to be a feminist, you need to be non-violent and against capital punishment? You seem to be judging the value of characters by their ability to conform to YOUR values, beliefs and world view. Somebody can be a fully developed female character and not agree with your stances on everything. To suggest otherwise is mere arrogance.
I actually disagree. The comment that a woman character who acts "like a man" is a very frustrating comment. I don't believe anyone acts like a "man." If someone has those traits, then they are just tough. They don't have to be a feminist, but they are just tough. Kill bill is actually one of my favorite movies and I never once thought she was trying to be a man I thought she was a skilled warrior out for revenge and it fits her. It a man had the qualities you listed would that make him a woman?
@rchan09 I'm talking about traits stereotypically associated with one gender or the other, I am NOT in any way implying that men are inherently predisposed to one set of characteristics and women to another.
@feministfrequency You do however seem to be saying that the traits traditionally ascribed to men (Aggressiveness, competitiveness & emotion masking) are inherently bad which i do not agree with. Yes these traits do tend to be shown as darker, but to say that they are inherently wrong is to really limit humanity and men. My feminists vision is that all people, Physically male & female, have equal access to both the traits (both typically male and female) & having flat char.s of both genders.
@cthendri Yes, all people are capable of all traits, but that does not mean that we can't ascribe values to them (which we do), I just think that our current value system is wrong. I strongly believe that traits like competition and being emotionally inexpressive should not have a higher value then actually expressing feelings and working and valuing cooperation.
I apologize if this has been brought up but I must say that I feel as if you are ignoring the historical context set up by the film and it's affect on the character. While she is not challenging gender norms, in that world that the film creates, she is actually extremely progressive.
Also, she does have empathy which she shows to LeBoeuf and does try to draw compromise through the film between the two men. Not in a caregiver way, but in a way done to promote cooperation.
@theowlsarefun Agreed. I was actually explaining the characters of the series to a friend the other day. I explained Peeta first (because he asked about him and then about Katniss), and when I said that Katniss is a fierce, independent, and somewhat hostile character he told me something like: "Oh, so is this a femenist story with a femenist main character?" I stopped explaining the characters and started arguing with him, to be honest. Le sigh, people need to get their facts straight.
I would love to see your take on Hanna. I think it has many of the same faults as True Grit which keep her from being a truly representative female heroine.
Mattie strikes me as a continuation of the "strange female" role exemplified by Jane Eyre. She doesn't have normal emotions; her actions are extraordinary considering her age/position/gender. This is the small town version of the manic pixie dream girl--rather than exposed to superfluous urban emotion, the audience is exposed to toughened rural reticence. But there are elderly women in the OK/Ark area who are like Mattie, just not as many now (my grandma was exactly like Mattie).
I agree that the way Maddie doesn't change and therefore isn't a dynamic character while Rooster is is a shortcoming of the movie, but I saw Maddie's coldness and obsession with revenge as a flaw in her character that added to the movie. You may not agree with revenge, but I don't think it makes Maddie not a feminist character, because she is still seeking her goals with total determination.
i have to say that I think your #2 critique of the character is really sprouting from where you as an observer stand in time; culturally in the era the movie is set in, it's not surprising that a character, especially a young one (whose grief is probably buried and manifesting in a desire for justice), to question the cultural norms of the time. She does a good job of not succumbing to what's expected of her because of her age/gender, but she can't fight everything.
I will also say, that I can think of several good and serious movies with young actresses, but it should happen more often. I deffinitly prefer Dorothy in Disney's Return to Oz then the Judy Garland Dorothy, Judy Garland was too old for the role.
I'm all for non-violent conflict resolution it's something I love to see especially in interactive media like video games. But I don't quite hold to the idea that a woman can never be violent or fight in a movie. I still enjoy a good fight scene, but what I like to see is a character who fights as a last resort. I'm okay with a female character fighting to save the day, or in a war setting... I think it'd be sexist to have every situation for women be a non-violent one.
@feministfrequency Have you ever read the Sword of Truth series? I very much like how they portray females. Terry Goodkind writes them as full and complex characters who are capable of all emotions.
To me she is that flawed but true character you described. She lived in a time where because of her age and gender she had to be tough. But she was never tough in a fake or overtly macho way.
There are scenes, though, where Mattie does show "Feminin" characteristics - like when the two men are in the middle of stupid ego fights (I can think of at least two scenes)- she reminds them of the reason they're there, or when she feels compassion for Mr. LeBeef after he's wounded...
And still, I think her role is quite feminist in that it gives girls and women a role model that is rarely represented in Hollywood, in being a young woman who does not use her sexuality as her only force.
I loved Mattie because she looks unaffected by gender dictations, without being a tom boy. I've never seen a character like her on film. Other "strong" female heroins ignore the physical differences between the sexes, and here, Mattie is undoubtedly physically week, but perseveres using her mind and the scarce defence of law. Not every woman has to be soft and emotional. Mattie is not a rebel and not a classic feminist, but she does her own thing in an extremely gender polarised world.
But isn't it also sexist to assume cooperation and empathy are inherently feminine while competitiveness and aggression are inherently masculine?
It's not sexist that our culture values competitiveness per se, since competitiveness is not exclusive to one sex. It's sexist that our culture assumes only men can achieve that competitive ideal.
As feminists, we should seek to cast female characters in all sorts of roles, to challenge the idea that there is any set way a women must behave.
@normloman I don't believe that ANY personality or behaviour traits are inherent to one gender but that ALL genders have the capacity for ALL traits, but I do believe that society and the media ascribes certain traits to certain genders and that is perpetuated by the media. I absolutely agree that I want feminist characters to be full and complete human beings capable of the full spectrum of behaviour traits without stereotyping.
@normloman If you watch the whole video and pay attention, you will notice that she is not saying women are all inherently empathy, cooperation, etc.
Once again inspiring and thought-provoking. And don"t you think that valuing "male" values (emotionally inexpressive/ratio-centred, aggressive, dominating) over "female" values (eomotionally expressive/emotion-centred, cooperative, affectionate) is exactly where the reproduction of gender roles ties in with the reproduction and naturalisation of capitalism and its values?
I thought about this for a while, and I came to the conclusion that you are right. It's not the distribution of gender roles per se that's the problem, it's what those roles stand for. It seems that patriarchy persists by binding negative, hierarchical traits with positive ones, e.g. you can't be strong(positive) without being dominant(negative), and you can't be caring(positive) without being submissive(negative). Substituting one negative stereotype to another is no improvement.
I also disagree with you putting Zoe up there, but there are already plenty of people who have argued that point. However, I believe that there was one character you should have shown, Captain Janeway. I remember reading that you see Janeway as a captain who happens to be a woman, but she was really a woman captain. They were afraid to show her as vulnerable and anyone who dared disagree with her decisions was either not themselves or an enemy, even when they were clearly bad decisions.
While I share your pet peeve of Hollywood's definition of "Feminist characters" simply being overly-agressive Women (this is why I'm not planning to see "Sucker Punch"... well, that and Zack Snyder is an hack director), I must disagree with the idea that Mattie Ross is less a Feminist character because of your broad definition. By your rationale - and forgive me if I'm over-simplifying - female characters must stay in context. That is as inappropriate as a male character ONLY being a Rambo-type.
I completely agree. It always used to bother me why 'strong' female characters always had to be the violent ones who could load a gun. Yes, while that might be an admirable trait, those woman usually have to fit into the 'thin, sexy and beautiful' category as well.
While I'll agree that it can be annoying to constantly see the tough warrior woman who is too much like how a man may THINK a feminist is, I'm gonna go with FlipNormalsTwist and say that I disagree with putting Zoe up there. While Zoe is a strong warrior, she's also a very affectionate person who loves her husband and shows a wide range of emotion. In fact, I believe that show represents women brilliantly as they're all different with vices and virtues that anyone can relate to or find likable.
I liked Mattie. She is one of the first young female characters that even has a shot at being really and not cliqueed in any way. I think she is alot closer to a real teenage girl than many characters about girls her age are. Does it matter if she is labled a "feminist"? She is a strong person, and sets a much better example than the teenage girls like in Mean Girls.
You make a good point about inexpressiveness in male characters. Seeing emotional conflict and development is definitely nice. I love Christian Bale in Equilibrium, because he appears vulnerable and confused, and effectively has an emotional breakdown. These seem to be traits THE HERO typically doesn't have, unless they're written as "effeminate" (I hate that word) characters, such as Spiderman.
Your critique is aimed more at the critics who have claimed that Mattie is a feminist rather than on the film itself. I can assure you Charles Portis did not write the film to be a 'feminist film'. He created a tough 14 year-old character who happed to be a girl. So, yes, he made the character a girl rather than a boy in order to put a twist on a familier story. But it ends there. To add all the things you want would make it a different book and film.
there is another dynamic present in the film which seems important: Western films florify land seizure and violence against First Nations and Native American people by framing it in the context of "self-reliance and independence in a harsh and unforgiving land," i.e., genocide against Native Americans is somehow cast as actually being the pioneers' burden.
So could a western (a genre defined by much of what you critique as making her character non-feminist) ever be feminist or have feminist characters by your criteria, or is this as close as it gets?
@feministfrequency I really enjoyed this critique and appreciate you taking the time and (considerable) effort to engage with all of these YouTube responses.
Question: Is there the remotest possibility that we will see a movie with exceptional levels of genuine feminist appeal that could attain some modicum financial success?
or are you expecting too much from a movie industry that's locked into a heated competition with the male dominated video game industry.
Btw I'm not a feminist, I visit this site because of your intellectually dominant emotion free logic which makes your criticism of the Mattie Ross character..... ironic.
@St1kyFinguz Thelma and Louise. Norma Rae. Alien. Silence of the Lambs. Elizabeth. Silkwood. The Accused. 9 to 5. Erin Brokovich. Terminator 2. All incredibly successful movies that featured feminist themes, feminist characters, or both.
I'll disagree with your reasons a bit. It's true that it's a male stereotype, but I find it a bit refreshing that she isn't cast as stereotyped emotional, needs for romance, etc. and is a "tough" character. The problem I have with the "female traits" is that it places women to having those traits inherently VS a nurtured behavior. I think that more characters male or female just need those traits and have them taken seriously.
@Maverynthia Yes, that is what I am saying, that we need to reevalutate what traits we value and ascribe them to both male and female characters without gender stereotyping.
What makes you think that women don't use violence for conflict resolution? Especially, once you define violence as something that deliberately hurts another being, you need to include the whole range of emotional, psychological, financial abuse/violence. It is correct that men are MORE violent than women and that once men get violent, greater damage is taken on average. However, women are far from not being violent, which is also true for female violence against men, also strong men.
You had me agreeing up until the point you showed a picture of Zoe. As a complete fangirl of the Firefly series I think you have Zoe all wrong. She's not cast in a male role. She is a tough woman in this world where most woman aren't seen as strong, while still being a complete human being. In Serenity she is upset because they left a man to die, in Heart of Gold she and Wash have an argument where she says she wants a baby, etc. She has every emotion a normal human would. She's not Jayne.
@FlipNormalsTwist I agree. I'd also like to add that a lot of the other women the uploader claims to have been cast in male roles are soldiers. It upsets me that she would say characters like Zoe and Starbuck aren't feminine enough just because they are soldiers first. Just because in difficult situations they don't break down that doesn't mean they're male. They have EVERY emotion throughout the show. I guess OP thinks women can only be feminine if they never pick up a gun or fight in a war.
@feministfrequency If it was clear that's not what you're saying then it wouldn't have been what came across. You complain these women aren't feminine enough and don't show enough "emotion". Did you want tears? Also, the reason the girl in the film doesn't question death is because it's the Wild West! The only problem she with it was that her dad ended up being killed. The actress could've done more, but being upset that she doesn't have a monologue after she killed the guy is unreasonable.
@anothercrazyengine I'm not saying women aren't "feminine" enough, I'm saying that we need to question the gendered values ascribed to both male & female characters. Characters should be written as full & complete human beings with a range of emotions & behaviours that aren't fulfilling sexist stereotypes. Additionally, I think we need to reevaluate what values are celebrated, so being cold & emotionless I don't think is a character trait that should be valued (but can still be represented).
I'm just tired of people expecting women to be everything at once. Yes, they can be "masculine" but they have to be "feminine" at the same time. It's just a golden mean fallacy. Women can't simply win.
@FlipNormalsTwist I have a much longer analysis of Zoe's character which I don't have room for here, and I know I am in the minority but I think Zoe's character is one of the least dynamic characters Whedon has created, her character development is really weak and she is really just the muscle on the ship. Granted the show was very short lived and if it had continued I imagine they would have expanded the character but I still think they had enough time to do more with her.
@feministfrequency Jayne is the muscle on the ship. If you look at all the characters and the entire show you will see that Serenity is the real main character and each character is a trait. Jayne is the id. Zoe the courage. Mal the determination. River the intuition. Simon is empathy. Kaylee is joy. Inara is the ability to love. Wash is the sense of humor. I too have done much analysis on Firefly and Serenity. Jayne and not Zoe is the "nothing but muscle" character. (continued)
@feministfrequency Unlike Jayne, Zoe has a sense of morality and principles. She and Mal went through a lot in the war and they were the only two to come out of Serenity Valley alive (at least from Mal's platoon). What happened to Mal was that he lost his faith in god. With Zoe the situation is so much more interesting than that. She is always trying to hide her emotions, but it's easy to see right through her. Gina Torres does a great job. (continued again :-/)
@feministfrequency She was comforting with Book was shot & nice when River was hiding from Book's hair. And when Wash died I have yet to see a man react with so much passion. I've seen every episode at least 20 times and I have many more examples of Zoe being compassionate. THAT is her character! River, Zoe, Kaylee and Inara are all incredible women. They are human, passionate, and everything else you would expect a Whedon female to be. It might be a lot to ask, but can you give me your analysis
@FlipNormalsTwist I think this is a much bigger conversation then we have room for in youtube comments. I have a small paragraph dedicated to this in my thesis that I wrote about strong women if you want to take a look at that. But the bottom line is that I don't think Zoe's character is a full and complete human being, while she might have small moments of compassion she doesn't really grow at all, especially in contrast to Mal who has excellent character development.
@feministfrequency I sent you a message, but I think you underestimate how many times I'm talking about here. There was no episode in which she didn't let her humanity shine. I'll say this for the last time: Zoe is NOT Jayne. She's not "just muscle". She's not just a soldier, she's also a wife and a friend. Just because her priority is to be strong that doesn't make her less human. It makes her more so. Ans yes please I would like to see the paragraph. Can you send that as a response to message?
@feministfrequency True, but the show was canceled and there wasn't enough time to develop everyone. Mal is very developed, but the character most developed on that show was River, a female character.
@dianesummers1989 I agree that we don't know what would have happened with the character development if the show had continued. I don't know if I agree that River was the most developed character, I still think Mal was the most developed on the show, and that primarily has to do with his role as the star of the show probably.
@feministfrequency Yeah, but River was by far the most interesting and she was really what the show was about. Plus, there were other female characters that were feminine yet strong in their own way. Sorry if what I said earlier about Captain Janeway offended you, but the male captians were allowed to be vulnerable from time to time and Janeway wasn't. The writers were so afraid to show Janeway as weak that her personality changed depending on the writer. Even Kate Mulgrew says her character
@FlipNormalsTwist I agree wholeheartedly. In many cases, Zoe keeps Mal's humanity in check - not as heavy-handedly as Kaylee (a more traditionally "feminine" character) would, but as his equal who has a cooler head and can pull him back when he's being too hard.
since this is an adaptation of a pre-existing story, she CAN'T be feminist in the way that you want. she also can't be because the era in which the film is set can only allow her character to go in two ways.
@mrzombiepants I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I just want to point out that films are known to change LOADS of stuff when adapting a book or another film. They are also often historically inaccurate.
I just read an article onGamasutra the lead character in the game Mass Effect, which is oddly appropriate. Although you can choose the character's gender, the character's actions are always those of a manly man. The article presents this behavior, when performed by a female main character (popularly called "FemShep") as empowerment. The same comments about True Grit in this video apply to his review.
When I took a Myths of the World class in college, it was brought to our attention that when we have the "Heroes Journey" stories, men often go off into the world for adventure, seeking something on this journey he is meant to go on, but female characters go on the Heroes Journey usually to because they were wronged and for answers or revenge. I just thought of that when I watched this video.
I agree, but keep in mind there are two different, almost conflicting demands here
.
1) for movies to value stereotypical femininity (being expressive, co-operative, etc.)
2) for women not to feel bound by gender norms
What this movie does is satisfy the 2nd demand, which is great. I understand the need for satisfying the 1st demand too, but you can hardly expect a movie to achieve both with one character. Are they not somewhat contradictory--to achieve in one character at least?
@yammerz But stereotypical feminine traits (being expressive, co-operative, etc.) are not the same as stereotypical feminine rolls. I think the person in the video is asking for strong, full female characters without them acting like men. At least that's the impression that I got.
@yammerz i don't know if i agree. i mean, i know the "double standard" argument sounds good, but i think what we're looking for is a REALISTIC portrayal of women that doesn't simply fall into either stereotype. the same for men, too -- i don't think the masculine stereotype is really all that great either. but non-stereotypical portrayals of men are probably significantly easier to find.
@yammerz The assumption you make, that the two are nearly mutually exclusive, is incorrect. She shouldn't feel forced to be strictly "feminine"--that is to say, compassionate, emotional, cooperative-- but she shouldn't necessarily completely shed these traits, either. By expressing a broad range of traits, she can satisfy both demands; she can be emotional AND strong, cooperative AND dominating, etc. It can be tough to write a character like that, but the medium deserves those characters.
@yammerz The way to solve this: show men and women with feminine characteristics, and not depict them in a negative light. Most people in the world have feminine and masculine traits; movies can show this without it turning into a giggle fest (for men) or a damsel-in-distress (for women).
Mattie isnt a feminist, she has a strong personailty, she doesnt once question her revenge and can be seen as egocentric therefore her motives are only for herself not a wider range of the females of the era, its more of a personal story not a social commentary and I dont think there was a big focus on that, just very very subtle tones that perhaps she is symbolic of females being independant in society.
I also don't think she's a feminist — but they could have done worse. You showed the female Starbuck: what bugged me most about her character was, that she often completely broke down into a very stereotypical gender role (when it came to the love subplots). If they had allowed Mattie to develop, either by showing her become the harsh character she is by witnessing her father's death, or becoming softer again after having her revenge, they would have fallen for the same trap…
May be it's because I don't speak english very well but are you assuming a king of essentialism? You were talking about valorising feminine characteristics... Or is it in a perspective of deconstructing the injonctions set to the genders? I'm not sure. Thank you!
@observantdeer No I'm not being essentialist, I'm saying that through socialization we categorize traits as masculine and feminine and valorize them based on those gender differences. This often causes women to be written as less then full and complete human beings.
In many different stories there will be a constant. Usually a character that can be seen as somewhat of a catalyst for others characters development. I've always felt that True Grit is about Mattie being the constant, and observing from her eyes how she affects the people (Rooster and LaBoeuf) around her. It's an interesting take, as you would expect the character of a grizzled old man to be the constant, and for the girl to change.
I've always found it interesting and enjoy that aspect of it.
thejackist 4 months ago 8
The movie's attitude towards suffering and brutality is more than anything due to the fact that it's a Cohen brothers movie. And actually this movie is a step up for them - in the past they've played suffering and brutality for laughs, and they often seem to have contempt for their characters. So while your points about a male-centered world are correct, not all male filmmakers are in the Cohen brothers league when it comes to this kind of portrayal.
nancymergatroyd 5 months ago
Now, my next qualm is that Zoe is not just a recast of a male role. She is very much a woman. In Heart of Gold, she and Wash argue over having a baby, and she frequently shows emotion. The reason she's not gushing all the time is that she is working. She is the Captain's 2nd in command. She feels a need to be professional. She's also a soldier, which simply reinforces her professionalism.
MissLissaLindsey 6 months ago 3
You had me agreeing (overall) until you mentioned women being "recast" in typical male roles. The issue with this statement is that almost ALL roles are traditionally male. One of the most groundbreaking roles was that of Uhura in the original Star trek. She was not only 4th in command (unheard of at the time for a woman) but she was also the linguistics specialist. So first in her field, and 4th overall on the ship.
MissLissaLindsey 6 months ago
I completely agree with the video, sadly a lot of the viewers are obviously missing the point. Keep up the great work!
ermhm 6 months ago
I really loved this film, and you made very valid points. She does have some steriotypically male attributes, but I don't think that should undermine the fact she is strong, independant and smart. Also this is set in the old wild west, so you could look at it as the only way she can get what she wants is to act like a man. I agree she's not a feminist archetype, but it was refreshing to have a non sexualised female main character who is not defined by the male characters surrounding her.
hazeldelirium 6 months ago 2
Also, just as a point of film-literary accuracy, the Coen Brothers have been well documented as saying that their version of True Grit is NOT a remake of the John Wayne film, but another interpretation of the original novel (one, in fact, that they have endeavored to more accurately chronicle the novel's true spirit and storyline.
RavFlight76 6 months ago
I think there is an unfortunate misappropriation of ideas here, suggesting that a feminist must be, by her nature "feminine", and that certain roles are to be taken as masculine or feminine behavior. However, would it not be said that this is the very sociopolitical construct being challenged by modern feminism? Is it not the fight of feminist around the world to have women treated equally and have all roles and jobs open to them? Feminists fight for women to be treated equally in the military
RavFlight76 6 months ago 16
@RavFlight76 I am in no way implying that to be feminist you must be "feminine" I am making the case that we have a very binary way of looking at gender roles within society and in the media and that our society and media value roles identified as masculine over those identified as feminine. I'm not saying that inherently one is better then the other but that we should look at and revaluate traits in terms of being positive vs negative instead of masculine vs feminine.
feministfrequency 6 months ago 35
noticed the screen capture of Kill Bill and thought that was a very interesting movie to bring up. What are your thoughts on The Bride from those movies? because on the one hand, yes she basically kills things with a sword the whole time, but females are the strong role present, and yet the bride and verdita green both care immensely for their daughters.
they;re warrior women, sure, but they're also mothers. I would think that fits in with your definition of feminist characters, but i'm notsure
2lowhand 7 months ago
I have to disagree on Mattie not showing any emotion at all. Yes, she IS affected by the violent deaths on her journey (she even admits it in a scene), yes, she DOES show weakness (in the cave, when being beaten and when being kidnapped), yes, she DOES show feelings (crying for her beloved horse, 25 years later for Cogburn). She is NOT emotional cold. She is a strong, tough female character with lots of courage, also showing weakness and being naive and, sometimes, being too trusting.
WhisperOfTheNight 7 months ago 2
I believe it is also important to mix those stereotypical "masculine" and "feminine" traits. Mattie could be expressive about the loss of her father and still believe in the death penalty and violence. There are many women who believe in the death penalty and who participate in 'male' sports, but they are no less feminine. Even in Kill Bill, the character B was struggling with the loss of her daughter and the emotional tie she had to a man who she loved, but lived for violence at the same time.
samiam2088 7 months ago
True Grit does explore the morality of corporal punishment, it's not through character growth. Mattie did everything to kill her father's killer, threw away compassion, bull dozed everything in her path, and stopped at nothing to get what she desired. In the end, she got her man, but it destroyed her in the process. She sacrificed her compassion in order to take a life and it took it's toll as she wound up alone and socially distant from the world. It's a morality play of what vengeance gets us.
flashfox466 7 months ago
I would disagree a bit on some of your points. Both Zoe and Mattie have logical, character-driven reasons for their attitudes toward violence. Zoe is a soldier and a revolutionary and most of her interaction with others on the show is based upon that aspect of her life because that's her uniform - her public face. Mattie lives in the a rough environment, where corporal punishment is the norm. She upholds a patriarchal norm, yes, because that's the only concept of society she has access to.
kyriathalia 7 months ago 10
@kyriathalia but if your character doesn't evolve out of that, or even start making ripples to identify that then how is that any different then all the other characters/stories that replicate patriarchal norms?
feministfrequency 7 months ago 7
Can you elucidate point 1? I don't understand why lack of growth makes Mattie Ross not a feminist character.
Nghariad 7 months ago
So, what female characters do you think of as a feminist character? Just wondering. :)
mahasalimable 8 months ago
As a man who considers himself a feminist ally, I was pleased at Mattie Ross's portrayal in this version, having seen the original. You make very valid points regarding her being a very static character. However, she is the focal point in which numerous characters re-examine their life, and most likely, their viewpoints on gender. LaBeouf and Rooster, certainly, but even Lucky Ned Pepper is impressed and taken aback by Mattie's wit, and that doubtlessly affects the way he treats her.
laviebohemme 8 months ago
I liked this review. Well-done. However, regarding the lack of growth in Mattie's character ... I tend to disagree. Falling into that hole was symbolic of Mattie's descent into all that is wrong. The snakes ... whatever it symbolizes ...Mattie is clearly bitten by that evil. She is rescued, in more ways than 1, but Rooster. But not unscathed. The loss of the arm..is where the evil streak ended. Lots of growth...highly symbolic.
michael01612 8 months ago 2
I'm going to have to disagree with you in regards to Uma Therman's The Bride/Beatrix Kiddo character from Kill Bill. She showed a ray of emotions throughout the movies, more so in Vl. 2. Even when she finally got her revenge, she was crying. Just as she was cold and ruthless, she was just as affectionate and loving. At the end of the story, you can tell that she changed as well.
nanadepuchodana 9 months ago
People in the Old West couldn't afford to be affected by brutality, death, or the suffering of others, and capital punishment was necessary to discourage murder, as well as to prevent murderers from murdering again. Being emotionally reserved and unaffected by violence allows calmer, more reasoned thinking. One can be both cold and moral.
Aphradonis 9 months ago
She doesn't change at the end of the movie but remember Batman Forever when Bruce Wayne asks Dick Grayson where do you go after revenge? Bruce Wayne didn't change after he had his revenge against the Joker.
itputsthelotion1 9 months ago
I think that in this case, expecting Mattie to challenge the violent culture she lives in would destroy the narrative. It's a Western - you could also argue that her hell-bent focus on revenge and violence IS her major character flaw, if you wanted to look at it that way.
I enjoy your series and agree that Mattie doesn't have a complex character arc like Rooster does, but I really loved watching her on screen, and thought she emoted with nuance and subtlety.
squeakthefreak 9 months ago 3
You point out that these people in True Grit live "in a harsh and unforgiving land." Then you claim (correctly) that Mattie et al don't express any real emotion. Wouldn't that be fitting with their surroundings? Would scenes of Mattie questioning herself and her mission have made the movie better? I don't know, but I'd like to see that too. I'd also like an answer for stmsrachel's question, I wanna know some feminist movie characters so I broaden my horizons.
Twnglck40s 9 months ago 3
OK, but the 1st reason why Mattie Ross doesn't seem to evolve as a character does not explain why she couldn't be a feminist. Just the 2nd reason does that.
manicottimonster 9 months ago
The movie isn't a remake, the Coen Brothers didn't even watch the first film. It's a better adaptation~
GrigoriRasputin 9 months ago
Trinity?? Really?? She's in love with Neo, while still being a tough fighter with the strength to carry on through death and destruction like most female characters don't. She cried when Neo was dying then gathered herself together and went in to save his ass. That's great for either gender character. showing the emotion, but making them tough enough to keep fighting. Perfect action hero, not so cold you can't connect, but tough enough for the plot. perfect.
JoeyisDREADful 10 months ago 2
I'm not sure I understand - are you saying that to be a feminist, you need to be non-violent and against capital punishment? You seem to be judging the value of characters by their ability to conform to YOUR values, beliefs and world view. Somebody can be a fully developed female character and not agree with your stances on everything. To suggest otherwise is mere arrogance.
CeridwensLair 10 months ago 12
I really like your videos, they're very insightful. But can I just ask what are some good examples of feminist movie characters in your perspective?
stmsrachel 10 months ago 4
Are you saying that non violence is the only choice for feminists or women in general?
acharpentier2010 10 months ago 4
@acharpentier2010 No I'm not.
feministfrequency 10 months ago 7
@feministfrequency Okee dokee. I misunderstood. I should have read your response to rchan09 before asking.
Tiptop video, though. I'd gush about your Trope Vids too, but this isn't the right place for that.
acharpentier2010 10 months ago
I actually disagree. The comment that a woman character who acts "like a man" is a very frustrating comment. I don't believe anyone acts like a "man." If someone has those traits, then they are just tough. They don't have to be a feminist, but they are just tough. Kill bill is actually one of my favorite movies and I never once thought she was trying to be a man I thought she was a skilled warrior out for revenge and it fits her. It a man had the qualities you listed would that make him a woman?
rchan09 10 months ago 13
@rchan09 I'm talking about traits stereotypically associated with one gender or the other, I am NOT in any way implying that men are inherently predisposed to one set of characteristics and women to another.
feministfrequency 10 months ago 11
@feministfrequency You do however seem to be saying that the traits traditionally ascribed to men (Aggressiveness, competitiveness & emotion masking) are inherently bad which i do not agree with. Yes these traits do tend to be shown as darker, but to say that they are inherently wrong is to really limit humanity and men. My feminists vision is that all people, Physically male & female, have equal access to both the traits (both typically male and female) & having flat char.s of both genders.
cthendri 6 months ago 9
@cthendri Yes, all people are capable of all traits, but that does not mean that we can't ascribe values to them (which we do), I just think that our current value system is wrong. I strongly believe that traits like competition and being emotionally inexpressive should not have a higher value then actually expressing feelings and working and valuing cooperation.
feministfrequency 6 months ago 8
So here's a question for you: If you were to write a movie, with a female lead. What would the character be like?
You've told us what you'd not like to see, and what you'd like to see. But I can't imagine this woman.
faithfuljohn 10 months ago 3
I apologize if this has been brought up but I must say that I feel as if you are ignoring the historical context set up by the film and it's affect on the character. While she is not challenging gender norms, in that world that the film creates, she is actually extremely progressive.
Also, she does have empathy which she shows to LeBoeuf and does try to draw compromise through the film between the two men. Not in a caregiver way, but in a way done to promote cooperation.
heolstor 10 months ago
This is the same argument I present for Katniss Everdeen of The Hunger Games. She's NOT a feminist character.
theowlsarefun 10 months ago
@theowlsarefun Agreed. I was actually explaining the characters of the series to a friend the other day. I explained Peeta first (because he asked about him and then about Katniss), and when I said that Katniss is a fierce, independent, and somewhat hostile character he told me something like: "Oh, so is this a femenist story with a femenist main character?" I stopped explaining the characters and started arguing with him, to be honest. Le sigh, people need to get their facts straight.
1hope124 10 months ago
I would love to see your take on Hanna. I think it has many of the same faults as True Grit which keep her from being a truly representative female heroine.
smokemonsterband 10 months ago
Mattie strikes me as a continuation of the "strange female" role exemplified by Jane Eyre. She doesn't have normal emotions; her actions are extraordinary considering her age/position/gender. This is the small town version of the manic pixie dream girl--rather than exposed to superfluous urban emotion, the audience is exposed to toughened rural reticence. But there are elderly women in the OK/Ark area who are like Mattie, just not as many now (my grandma was exactly like Mattie).
karacherith 11 months ago
I agree that the way Maddie doesn't change and therefore isn't a dynamic character while Rooster is is a shortcoming of the movie, but I saw Maddie's coldness and obsession with revenge as a flaw in her character that added to the movie. You may not agree with revenge, but I don't think it makes Maddie not a feminist character, because she is still seeking her goals with total determination.
LanceDirk 11 months ago
i have to say that I think your #2 critique of the character is really sprouting from where you as an observer stand in time; culturally in the era the movie is set in, it's not surprising that a character, especially a young one (whose grief is probably buried and manifesting in a desire for justice), to question the cultural norms of the time. She does a good job of not succumbing to what's expected of her because of her age/gender, but she can't fight everything.
SaramisKismet 11 months ago
I will also say, that I can think of several good and serious movies with young actresses, but it should happen more often. I deffinitly prefer Dorothy in Disney's Return to Oz then the Judy Garland Dorothy, Judy Garland was too old for the role.
PetiteOzma 11 months ago
I'm all for non-violent conflict resolution it's something I love to see especially in interactive media like video games. But I don't quite hold to the idea that a woman can never be violent or fight in a movie. I still enjoy a good fight scene, but what I like to see is a character who fights as a last resort. I'm okay with a female character fighting to save the day, or in a war setting... I think it'd be sexist to have every situation for women be a non-violent one.
PetiteOzma 11 months ago 31
@PetiteOzma I agree!
feministfrequency 11 months ago 3
@feministfrequency Have you ever read the Sword of Truth series? I very much like how they portray females. Terry Goodkind writes them as full and complex characters who are capable of all emotions.
thisloneliness 11 months ago
To me she is that flawed but true character you described. She lived in a time where because of her age and gender she had to be tough. But she was never tough in a fake or overtly macho way.
victoriajusticerocks 11 months ago
There are scenes, though, where Mattie does show "Feminin" characteristics - like when the two men are in the middle of stupid ego fights (I can think of at least two scenes)- she reminds them of the reason they're there, or when she feels compassion for Mr. LeBeef after he's wounded...
And still, I think her role is quite feminist in that it gives girls and women a role model that is rarely represented in Hollywood, in being a young woman who does not use her sexuality as her only force.
deborahel 11 months ago
I loved Mattie because she looks unaffected by gender dictations, without being a tom boy. I've never seen a character like her on film. Other "strong" female heroins ignore the physical differences between the sexes, and here, Mattie is undoubtedly physically week, but perseveres using her mind and the scarce defence of law. Not every woman has to be soft and emotional. Mattie is not a rebel and not a classic feminist, but she does her own thing in an extremely gender polarised world.
wawaspa 11 months ago 6
But isn't it also sexist to assume cooperation and empathy are inherently feminine while competitiveness and aggression are inherently masculine?
It's not sexist that our culture values competitiveness per se, since competitiveness is not exclusive to one sex. It's sexist that our culture assumes only men can achieve that competitive ideal.
As feminists, we should seek to cast female characters in all sorts of roles, to challenge the idea that there is any set way a women must behave.
normloman 11 months ago 72
@normloman I don't believe that ANY personality or behaviour traits are inherent to one gender but that ALL genders have the capacity for ALL traits, but I do believe that society and the media ascribes certain traits to certain genders and that is perpetuated by the media. I absolutely agree that I want feminist characters to be full and complete human beings capable of the full spectrum of behaviour traits without stereotyping.
feministfrequency 11 months ago 7
@normloman If you watch the whole video and pay attention, you will notice that she is not saying women are all inherently empathy, cooperation, etc.
missbraindamage 10 months ago
Once again inspiring and thought-provoking. And don"t you think that valuing "male" values (emotionally inexpressive/ratio-centred, aggressive, dominating) over "female" values (eomotionally expressive/emotion-centred, cooperative, affectionate) is exactly where the reproduction of gender roles ties in with the reproduction and naturalisation of capitalism and its values?
MrFalderal 11 months ago
Your awesome.
even the things you say that i don't agree with inspire me to re think or consider my opinion.
LimeySnee 11 months ago
I thought about this for a while, and I came to the conclusion that you are right. It's not the distribution of gender roles per se that's the problem, it's what those roles stand for. It seems that patriarchy persists by binding negative, hierarchical traits with positive ones, e.g. you can't be strong(positive) without being dominant(negative), and you can't be caring(positive) without being submissive(negative). Substituting one negative stereotype to another is no improvement.
ConscientiousMind 11 months ago
I also disagree with you putting Zoe up there, but there are already plenty of people who have argued that point. However, I believe that there was one character you should have shown, Captain Janeway. I remember reading that you see Janeway as a captain who happens to be a woman, but she was really a woman captain. They were afraid to show her as vulnerable and anyone who dared disagree with her decisions was either not themselves or an enemy, even when they were clearly bad decisions.
dianesummers1989 11 months ago
While I share your pet peeve of Hollywood's definition of "Feminist characters" simply being overly-agressive Women (this is why I'm not planning to see "Sucker Punch"... well, that and Zack Snyder is an hack director), I must disagree with the idea that Mattie Ross is less a Feminist character because of your broad definition. By your rationale - and forgive me if I'm over-simplifying - female characters must stay in context. That is as inappropriate as a male character ONLY being a Rambo-type.
BuddyL 11 months ago 3
I completely agree. It always used to bother me why 'strong' female characters always had to be the violent ones who could load a gun. Yes, while that might be an admirable trait, those woman usually have to fit into the 'thin, sexy and beautiful' category as well.
ncmmorris 11 months ago 2
While I'll agree that it can be annoying to constantly see the tough warrior woman who is too much like how a man may THINK a feminist is, I'm gonna go with FlipNormalsTwist and say that I disagree with putting Zoe up there. While Zoe is a strong warrior, she's also a very affectionate person who loves her husband and shows a wide range of emotion. In fact, I believe that show represents women brilliantly as they're all different with vices and virtues that anyone can relate to or find likable.
FantasmaLuna 11 months ago 2
I liked Mattie. She is one of the first young female characters that even has a shot at being really and not cliqueed in any way. I think she is alot closer to a real teenage girl than many characters about girls her age are. Does it matter if she is labled a "feminist"? She is a strong person, and sets a much better example than the teenage girls like in Mean Girls.
flipflop8406 11 months ago 3
You make a good point about inexpressiveness in male characters. Seeing emotional conflict and development is definitely nice. I love Christian Bale in Equilibrium, because he appears vulnerable and confused, and effectively has an emotional breakdown. These seem to be traits THE HERO typically doesn't have, unless they're written as "effeminate" (I hate that word) characters, such as Spiderman.
Rozax 11 months ago
Your critique is aimed more at the critics who have claimed that Mattie is a feminist rather than on the film itself. I can assure you Charles Portis did not write the film to be a 'feminist film'. He created a tough 14 year-old character who happed to be a girl. So, yes, he made the character a girl rather than a boy in order to put a twist on a familier story. But it ends there. To add all the things you want would make it a different book and film.
rashomon66 11 months ago 5
there is another dynamic present in the film which seems important: Western films florify land seizure and violence against First Nations and Native American people by framing it in the context of "self-reliance and independence in a harsh and unforgiving land," i.e., genocide against Native Americans is somehow cast as actually being the pioneers' burden.
findnwatch88 11 months ago
So could a western (a genre defined by much of what you critique as making her character non-feminist) ever be feminist or have feminist characters by your criteria, or is this as close as it gets?
gramamge33 11 months ago 4
Very interesting! Can you think of any examples of feminist characters in film (I know their are few, but have you come across any?).
kabire123489 11 months ago
R.E.S.P.E.C.T. for you.
multiquantumcheck 11 months ago
@feministfrequency I really enjoyed this critique and appreciate you taking the time and (considerable) effort to engage with all of these YouTube responses.
amidthewaves 1 year ago
Question: Is there the remotest possibility that we will see a movie with exceptional levels of genuine feminist appeal that could attain some modicum financial success?
or are you expecting too much from a movie industry that's locked into a heated competition with the male dominated video game industry.
Btw I'm not a feminist, I visit this site because of your intellectually dominant emotion free logic which makes your criticism of the Mattie Ross character..... ironic.
St1kyFinguz 1 year ago
@St1kyFinguz Thelma and Louise. Norma Rae. Alien. Silence of the Lambs. Elizabeth. Silkwood. The Accused. 9 to 5. Erin Brokovich. Terminator 2. All incredibly successful movies that featured feminist themes, feminist characters, or both.
authoress1 11 months ago
I'll disagree with your reasons a bit. It's true that it's a male stereotype, but I find it a bit refreshing that she isn't cast as stereotyped emotional, needs for romance, etc. and is a "tough" character. The problem I have with the "female traits" is that it places women to having those traits inherently VS a nurtured behavior. I think that more characters male or female just need those traits and have them taken seriously.
Maverynthia 1 year ago 6
@Maverynthia Yes, that is what I am saying, that we need to reevalutate what traits we value and ascribe them to both male and female characters without gender stereotyping.
feministfrequency 1 year ago
What makes you think that women don't use violence for conflict resolution? Especially, once you define violence as something that deliberately hurts another being, you need to include the whole range of emotional, psychological, financial abuse/violence. It is correct that men are MORE violent than women and that once men get violent, greater damage is taken on average. However, women are far from not being violent, which is also true for female violence against men, also strong men.
quotendeutscher 1 year ago 2
@quotendeutscher I never said woman are not or cannot be violent.
feministfrequency 1 year ago
You had me agreeing up until the point you showed a picture of Zoe. As a complete fangirl of the Firefly series I think you have Zoe all wrong. She's not cast in a male role. She is a tough woman in this world where most woman aren't seen as strong, while still being a complete human being. In Serenity she is upset because they left a man to die, in Heart of Gold she and Wash have an argument where she says she wants a baby, etc. She has every emotion a normal human would. She's not Jayne.
FlipNormalsTwist 1 year ago 69
@FlipNormalsTwist I agree. I'd also like to add that a lot of the other women the uploader claims to have been cast in male roles are soldiers. It upsets me that she would say characters like Zoe and Starbuck aren't feminine enough just because they are soldiers first. Just because in difficult situations they don't break down that doesn't mean they're male. They have EVERY emotion throughout the show. I guess OP thinks women can only be feminine if they never pick up a gun or fight in a war.
anothercrazyengine 1 year ago 6
@anothercrazyengine That clearly not what I am saying.
feministfrequency 1 year ago
@feministfrequency If it was clear that's not what you're saying then it wouldn't have been what came across. You complain these women aren't feminine enough and don't show enough "emotion". Did you want tears? Also, the reason the girl in the film doesn't question death is because it's the Wild West! The only problem she with it was that her dad ended up being killed. The actress could've done more, but being upset that she doesn't have a monologue after she killed the guy is unreasonable.
anothercrazyengine 1 year ago
@anothercrazyengine I'm not saying women aren't "feminine" enough, I'm saying that we need to question the gendered values ascribed to both male & female characters. Characters should be written as full & complete human beings with a range of emotions & behaviours that aren't fulfilling sexist stereotypes. Additionally, I think we need to reevaluate what values are celebrated, so being cold & emotionless I don't think is a character trait that should be valued (but can still be represented).
feministfrequency 1 year ago
@anothercrazyengine Or they have to be over-emotional and hysterical.
I'm just tired of people expecting women to be everything at once. Yes, they can be "masculine" but they have to be "feminine" at the same time. It's just a golden mean fallacy. Women can't simply win.
meishuu 9 months ago 5
@meishuu Thank you! I am so sick of this "women who act emotionless/mean/aggressive are just men in disguise" cliché. Women can't win.
shreenagain 8 months ago
@FlipNormalsTwist I have a much longer analysis of Zoe's character which I don't have room for here, and I know I am in the minority but I think Zoe's character is one of the least dynamic characters Whedon has created, her character development is really weak and she is really just the muscle on the ship. Granted the show was very short lived and if it had continued I imagine they would have expanded the character but I still think they had enough time to do more with her.
feministfrequency 1 year ago
@feministfrequency Jayne is the muscle on the ship. If you look at all the characters and the entire show you will see that Serenity is the real main character and each character is a trait. Jayne is the id. Zoe the courage. Mal the determination. River the intuition. Simon is empathy. Kaylee is joy. Inara is the ability to love. Wash is the sense of humor. I too have done much analysis on Firefly and Serenity. Jayne and not Zoe is the "nothing but muscle" character. (continued)
FlipNormalsTwist 1 year ago
@feministfrequency Unlike Jayne, Zoe has a sense of morality and principles. She and Mal went through a lot in the war and they were the only two to come out of Serenity Valley alive (at least from Mal's platoon). What happened to Mal was that he lost his faith in god. With Zoe the situation is so much more interesting than that. She is always trying to hide her emotions, but it's easy to see right through her. Gina Torres does a great job. (continued again :-/)
FlipNormalsTwist 1 year ago
@feministfrequency She was comforting with Book was shot & nice when River was hiding from Book's hair. And when Wash died I have yet to see a man react with so much passion. I've seen every episode at least 20 times and I have many more examples of Zoe being compassionate. THAT is her character! River, Zoe, Kaylee and Inara are all incredible women. They are human, passionate, and everything else you would expect a Whedon female to be. It might be a lot to ask, but can you give me your analysis
FlipNormalsTwist 1 year ago
@FlipNormalsTwist I think this is a much bigger conversation then we have room for in youtube comments. I have a small paragraph dedicated to this in my thesis that I wrote about strong women if you want to take a look at that. But the bottom line is that I don't think Zoe's character is a full and complete human being, while she might have small moments of compassion she doesn't really grow at all, especially in contrast to Mal who has excellent character development.
feministfrequency 1 year ago
@feministfrequency I sent you a message, but I think you underestimate how many times I'm talking about here. There was no episode in which she didn't let her humanity shine. I'll say this for the last time: Zoe is NOT Jayne. She's not "just muscle". She's not just a soldier, she's also a wife and a friend. Just because her priority is to be strong that doesn't make her less human. It makes her more so. Ans yes please I would like to see the paragraph. Can you send that as a response to message?
FlipNormalsTwist 1 year ago 3
@feministfrequency True, but the show was canceled and there wasn't enough time to develop everyone. Mal is very developed, but the character most developed on that show was River, a female character.
dianesummers1989 11 months ago
@dianesummers1989 I agree that we don't know what would have happened with the character development if the show had continued. I don't know if I agree that River was the most developed character, I still think Mal was the most developed on the show, and that primarily has to do with his role as the star of the show probably.
feministfrequency 11 months ago
@feministfrequency Yeah, but River was by far the most interesting and she was really what the show was about. Plus, there were other female characters that were feminine yet strong in their own way. Sorry if what I said earlier about Captain Janeway offended you, but the male captians were allowed to be vulnerable from time to time and Janeway wasn't. The writers were so afraid to show Janeway as weak that her personality changed depending on the writer. Even Kate Mulgrew says her character
dianesummers1989 11 months ago
@dianesummers1989 I don't agree at all that Firefly was about River, yes, she was a character on the show but Mal was definitely the "star".
feministfrequency 11 months ago
@FlipNormalsTwist Came here just to find and up your comment. Or make my own if one didn't already exist.
Tatarize 11 months ago
@FlipNormalsTwist I agree wholeheartedly. In many cases, Zoe keeps Mal's humanity in check - not as heavy-handedly as Kaylee (a more traditionally "feminine" character) would, but as his equal who has a cooler head and can pull him back when he's being too hard.
ArtemisRampant 9 months ago
since this is an adaptation of a pre-existing story, she CAN'T be feminist in the way that you want. she also can't be because the era in which the film is set can only allow her character to go in two ways.
mrzombiepants 1 year ago 2
@mrzombiepants It's a fictional story written by real people, Mattie could be written in any number of ways.
feministfrequency 1 year ago
@mrzombiepants I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I just want to point out that films are known to change LOADS of stuff when adapting a book or another film. They are also often historically inaccurate.
RosefulEvelyns 1 year ago
Femenistfrequency, you should watch Sophie Scholl. It's a film centred around a strong and independent woman.
Orly83 1 year ago
I just read an article onGamasutra the lead character in the game Mass Effect, which is oddly appropriate. Although you can choose the character's gender, the character's actions are always those of a manly man. The article presents this behavior, when performed by a female main character (popularly called "FemShep") as empowerment. The same comments about True Grit in this video apply to his review.
Pruncible 1 year ago
When I took a Myths of the World class in college, it was brought to our attention that when we have the "Heroes Journey" stories, men often go off into the world for adventure, seeking something on this journey he is meant to go on, but female characters go on the Heroes Journey usually to because they were wronged and for answers or revenge. I just thought of that when I watched this video.
babileilei 1 year ago
I agree, but keep in mind there are two different, almost conflicting demands here
.
1) for movies to value stereotypical femininity (being expressive, co-operative, etc.)
2) for women not to feel bound by gender norms
What this movie does is satisfy the 2nd demand, which is great. I understand the need for satisfying the 1st demand too, but you can hardly expect a movie to achieve both with one character. Are they not somewhat contradictory--to achieve in one character at least?
yammerz 1 year ago 43
@yammerz But stereotypical feminine traits (being expressive, co-operative, etc.) are not the same as stereotypical feminine rolls. I think the person in the video is asking for strong, full female characters without them acting like men. At least that's the impression that I got.
RosefulEvelyns 1 year ago
@yammerz i don't know if i agree. i mean, i know the "double standard" argument sounds good, but i think what we're looking for is a REALISTIC portrayal of women that doesn't simply fall into either stereotype. the same for men, too -- i don't think the masculine stereotype is really all that great either. but non-stereotypical portrayals of men are probably significantly easier to find.
virtualanonymity 11 months ago
@yammerz The assumption you make, that the two are nearly mutually exclusive, is incorrect. She shouldn't feel forced to be strictly "feminine"--that is to say, compassionate, emotional, cooperative-- but she shouldn't necessarily completely shed these traits, either. By expressing a broad range of traits, she can satisfy both demands; she can be emotional AND strong, cooperative AND dominating, etc. It can be tough to write a character like that, but the medium deserves those characters.
wantslatioslots 11 months ago
@yammerz The way to solve this: show men and women with feminine characteristics, and not depict them in a negative light. Most people in the world have feminine and masculine traits; movies can show this without it turning into a giggle fest (for men) or a damsel-in-distress (for women).
SaramisKismet 11 months ago
Thank you! I always love your videos.
1oErdoben 1 year ago
Mattie isnt a feminist, she has a strong personailty, she doesnt once question her revenge and can be seen as egocentric therefore her motives are only for herself not a wider range of the females of the era, its more of a personal story not a social commentary and I dont think there was a big focus on that, just very very subtle tones that perhaps she is symbolic of females being independant in society.
patsybob 1 year ago
I also don't think she's a feminist — but they could have done worse. You showed the female Starbuck: what bugged me most about her character was, that she often completely broke down into a very stereotypical gender role (when it came to the love subplots). If they had allowed Mattie to develop, either by showing her become the harsh character she is by witnessing her father's death, or becoming softer again after having her revenge, they would have fallen for the same trap…
funkycoder1 1 year ago
May be it's because I don't speak english very well but are you assuming a king of essentialism? You were talking about valorising feminine characteristics... Or is it in a perspective of deconstructing the injonctions set to the genders? I'm not sure. Thank you!
observantdeer 1 year ago
@observantdeer No I'm not being essentialist, I'm saying that through socialization we categorize traits as masculine and feminine and valorize them based on those gender differences. This often causes women to be written as less then full and complete human beings.
feministfrequency 1 year ago