Rachel Maddow - The European Socialism Nightmare

[thisissparta789789]

I'm starting to think the USA should be more like Europe. They have bigger wages, stronger unions, excellent Healthcare, top-notch Education, etc. I am a part-Socialist.

[weezer316]

Lol the US is such a shithole and they are too ignorant to even realise it. Most of them seem to think America is utterly unique, until they take their puny american wages to "Socialist" countries like Norway and they see how poor they actually are.

[Loltochapel]

I truly think I was born in wrong continent. I love House music and Techno, I am progressive, and love to get around everywhere by bike, and! I am intrigued by other cultures besides mine! Shit I guess I am cut out for the EU.

[weezer316]

Europe rules. And it rules because we arent ignorant, a commodity the US has in abunance and they usually run the country for 8 years at a time

[RUXOID]

Governor of New Jersey, Christie, made​the call costs and revenues, while preserving jobs. Simply optimizing costs and allowing companies to tender without unions. How little is needed to debunk the myths delusional socialist nonsense to justify those who tell you left television. At the same time, socialist Greece in the ass. .

[omegavalerius]

@RUXOID

And yet somehow countries with strong unions do good in Europe (Germany, Norway, Finland). Have you considered that its a bit more complex than "socialism is bad, capitalism is good"?

[xaviqaz]

One reader wrote the simple truth: "The means of production are private (=no socialism) and the govt helps those who can't compete in the market with social programms. The real difference between GER and the US is that the german private demand isn't inflated by ridiculous private loans."

[xaviqaz]

@dadecountyhustler305 It is much worse when a net payer like Italy (they pay net €4 billion each year to Brussels) will likely need a bailout. It would mean the end of the European Union, not only the Euro. The answer of euroburocrats? Let´s create a central european government that collects taxes and decide everything. It´s nightmare.

[xaviqaz]

German unions are strong but they are less ideologized and divided than in other countries (particularly the mediterranean ones) and companies can negotiate labor contracts away from strict national rules. That kind of flexiblity/decentralization is being emulated now by some struggling european countries. Germans are more productive because they (the people) want to be productive.

[flyoverjoe]

This is truly hilarious to see one year later. Check out 3:05.

[Efteling4Ever]

Pathetic right wingers. Living the past.

100% pure capitalism ONLY works if the sky is the limit. It ONLY works well, if there`s NO unemployment as there was in the 50 and 60ties when there was more economic growth than people. It ONLY works if one can say "Screw you guys, i'll just go a 1000 miles into Indian territory and start a farm there. Bill me if you can find me, suckers" When growth does not keep up with the mouths to feed, one NEEDS some sort of "socialism" to keep a society afloat.

[Efteling4Ever]

@dadecountyhustler305

6) "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of someone elses money to spend - Margret Thatcher "

Why do people like you come up with right wing crap statements. As it that justifies anything. It is not other people`s money but yours. YOU pay into the system so YOU get some if YOU need some, like health care, pension etc. Of course, YOU could also privately spend into private companies like insurance companies.

What is the difference?

[Efteling4Ever]

@dadecountyhustler305

5) Why is it people like you always moan about "Eur. socialism" although for instance US style capitalism is an utter failure. That country is totally, utterly, completely bankrupt and it doesnt even have "socialism". That says it all, I guess. Broke without "socialism"? Broke with "socialism"?. Dude, give me the 2nd option.

[Efteling4Ever]

@dadecountyhustler305

4) "Lets not forget what their doing is an economic experiment."

Why is it people like you come up with bullshit like its an experiment, although "Eur. socialism" is simply good old f**king capitalism with higher taxes than "non socialist" countries. European states spend what they collect in taxes. One can have little taxes and high taxes.

[Efteling4Ever]

@dadecountyhustler305

3) Why is it people like you always ignore that Europe is real. It exists and it works. Daily. It is the largest economy in the world and competes the shit out of for instance the US. Why is it people like you choose(?) to ignore that the countries, like Holland, Germany etc., bailing out Greece are not only among the strongest economies on earth but are also all .......... extremely "socialist".

[Efteling4Ever]

@dadecountyhustler305

2) "Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc.... And poor Germany is having to bail them all out."

Why is it that people are so often deliberately(?) abusing this topic (knowing it has nothing to do with "Eur. socialism"?). Countries like Spain, Portugal and Ireland have a real estate and banking issue. Greece has borrowed hiuge sums of money and has not collected taxes properly for years. Btw, did you notice how much Greece looks like the US here?

Or don't you wish to?

[Efteling4Ever]

@dadecountyhustler305

1) "Everyone here is to dumb to realize that the European economic model is failing"

Why is it that there are so many suckers around that believe everyone else didn't get it, except for them?

[fuunguus]

@Rofistim The European model is a generalization, I doubt anyone thinks Europe is exactly the same all over. But there are certain things that are very similar. Such as free education, free health care and strong welfare, vital things that keeps poverty in Europe at a minimal.

[SpinalTapUK]

Whatever Mitch McConnell, I'd rather live in Europe than live in Kentucky.

[Loltochapel]

I wish we where like Europe or atleast like Canada or any other Industrail democracy. We cant even get single payer health care with Right-wing nut jobs throwing a hissy fit! Fuck that I am moving

[Bdiggidy1]

what a couple of clowns....maddows little clone

[XxLIVRAxX]

They want to transform the USA into a Western European styled nation....If only!!

[batmanofni]

It does seem that 'America lives to work' whereas' Europe works to live'.

[MaskedMarvyl]

Hey, GOP commentators: You forgot two things: The bailout was demanded by Bush before he left office; it ended up with the government having a stake in the banks. The banks, by the way, which came begging for money when their toxic "assets" they were selling came back to bite them. Blame Bush, blame the banks, blame greed; but it's B.S. to blame Obama for what he inherited. But hey, we're talking about the Republicans and Fox News!

"HE'S A FRENCH SOCIALIST!!!"

[Hemothep]

Did this guy seriously call the social german democratic party socialist? They abandonned socialism 40 years ago! They promote a social market economy. The means of production are private (=no socialism) and the govt helps those who can't compete in the market with social programms. The real difference between GER and the US is that the german private demand isn't inflated by rediculous private loans.

Btw we don't vote someone into a council because they only have a high school degree.

[trakkaton]

From the fascist viewpoint of the US social democratic parties and socialist parties are just the same. They have no clue whatsoever what even the topic is.

[bweazel]

6 to 7 week vacation?! You're joking. Lazy ass Europeans.

[basstard013]

@bweazel we have 5 weeks, 25 days. We also have free dental and medical care. I bet that blows your mind too.

[bweazel]

And is that paid for by your employer? Or do you all have some weird socialist program that taxes you all so the rest of you can take a month long vacation. A month long vacation. I just can't say that without rolling my eyes. You seriously think you can take a month off for the year and still be productive? Yes, free anything blows my mind. If you don't pay for it (taxes isn't paying for it), you don't deserve it. It's sad you guys are so comfortable being told how to spend your money.

[bweazel]

It should blow your mind. If you think there is such a thing as a free lunch, you're sadly mistake. Nothing is free. Especially in our modern economy. If you get something for free, you've stolen from someone else. You're about this close to being a slave.

[Musemistress]

@bweazel Actually you ACCRUE paid leave by working your butt off all year. A certain % of your pay is put aside and you are able to dip into it for the amount of allowed time you want to take off, this time usually happens during the summer (or in Aust, during the winter) and the workers will come back refreshed, revitalized and more willing to put their backs into it for another year.

They called Charlie Chaplin a Communist/Socialist too, he was a humanist as are the rest of the western world

[Musemistress]

@bweazel So by keeping citizens healthy so they CAN work so they can afford their childrens' education to add to the economy later and generally through working be able to afford to buy things from shops that keep money in circulation...that is a bad thing and will turn us into slaves?

Better start calling the rest of the world slaves then, literally, coz USA is pretty much the only Western society who has yet to figure out that people being too poor to live with health is a bad thing.

[bweazel]

@Musemistress Ya? You can also ACCRUE paid leave by sitting on your ass all year. You speak of people as though they're cattle. You are a debt slave. Open your eyes to the world you live in.

[Musemistress]

@bweazel Wow if I had known this I would never have had to look for work and, due to being a non-native Dutch speaker, be forced to work in factories thereby damaging my back to the point that working in those places was a perpetual nightmare.

Seriously, not one person I know anywhere who gets leave has been able to sit around getting extra money. If you can't find work, you still have to look for it and you get minimum payouts to survive, nothing extra, or you lose out on any money at all.

[Musemistress]

@bweazel I'm also not sure how I am a debt slave because I'd rather not be surrounded by sick homeless people who never were able to get the skills to work due to them being unable to afford education. In Australia and Netherlands, we paid taxes to improve everyone's lives as a whole...and actually we can afford it due to those taxes NOT being spent on war-machines and soldiers. So how many people have to open their eyes? The rest of the world that's not USA apparently.

[bweazel]

@Musemistress No one forced you to work, take a bit of credit for yourself. You could be a homeless person too if you wanted, you just don't want to do that. So again, no forcing is happening. No one held a gun to your head and made you work, so stop whinning about work like it's something you shouldn't be doing. You do it because you want to. Work harder, maybe you can afford the education you want then. No you pay taxes to feel as though you're helping everyone, you don't though.

[Musemistress]

@bweazel ...and this I am actually fine with. Only if our joint income was less than a very minimal amount would we get anything to help a bit for a while, and this selection works for young student who study full time, have a part time job and still can't afford to live. So they get student reductions on travel, study payments with proof they are attending and with UNI will have all but the books paid for and it will come out of their salary in taxes later on at a certain income rate.

[bweazel]

@Musemistress And why? You do you feel these people are entitled to other peoples income? What have they done for it? What have they done for you to deserve your money? Why can't these be assistance loans? I'm completely fine with that. You need help from everyone? Well everyone else deserves something for that help. They deserve for it to be paid back with minimal interest. You can't support banks doing it, then turn around and decline the same treatment for the public at large.

[bweazel]

@Musemistress Typical. It's all the US's fault, and everyone else is peaceful. Ya, bullshit. You guys buy plenty of defense equipment from us. You all are still in Iraq and Afghanistan, right there with the US, you all took bailouts from the Fed, you all invested in the fraudulant housing ponzi scheme (and did quite well for yourselves stealing our tax dollars). Apparently you look at the world through rose colored glasses. Look in the mirror please, your country does it all too. Hypocrites.

[Musemistress]

@bweazel And did I say it was USA's fault? What the US does is their own business, but that business is constantly being put onto us by making us feel guilty for breathing the same air as some politicians who call us socialistic lazy wastes of space and that is THE main reason why we get bitter about it. I'm having a baby and am studying via correspondence uni so the following does apply, that I am not entitled to a cent from the government because my partner earns enough to support us...cont

[bweazel]

@Musemistress Typical liberal statist bs, you take responsibility away from individuals and put it into the state. Wrong, if someone is sick and homeless on the street, it is their fault. If they can't afford an education, that's their parents fault and/or their fault. Period. I swear you guys are such crybabies and excuse makers. Take some credit for your own actions.

Exactly, the rest of the world. At least the US is honest about being shitheads. You all hide behind us and reep the profits

[Musemistress]

@bweazel The governments in both the EU and Aust are obviously not perfect, in fact sometimes we downright hate some of their policies, but the base ideals stay the same. I've not gone without in the past because someone else had a baby or lost work, I've gone without because I lost my job and didn't bother looking for another one and thereby lost all rights to any government help. It's not about 'helping' eachother, it's about keeping things stable. Being in recession means tightening the belt.

[bweazel]

@Musemistress No thanks, I didn't cause the recession, so there is no need for me to "tighten the belt". You all go ahead and be altruistic if you'd like. You're only hurting yourselves. Personally, I would rather have people stand on their own too feet, rather than sitting in a government wheel chair. I would rather have people pull themselves out of the shitter, than being throw a rope by government. Throw them a rope if they're liable to pay it back, sure. Just my opinion though.

[Musemistress]

@bweazel A recession is caused by the failed economic norm that infinite growth in a finite world with money that does not exist (stock-market) "must be continued" and that all and sundry will benefit from it. There have been several over the last 130 years or so based upon this and each country handles it differently. As for the rope, yes, you can only been thrown it if you can PROVE you can pay it back through basic work or degree careers. Nothing is free, even handouts.

[bweazel]

@Musemistress Please, tell me how you believe it is everyone elses responsibility to keep you healthy. Hmm? If someone else decides to have a baby, is it now your partial responsibility to help pay for that baby? What if you don't like the person? Altruism makes me want to puke, it takes all responsibility away from the individual and shoves it on everyone else. Altruism in a nutshell is "out of sight, out of mind". If you get knocked up, that's your problem. Don't try to make it everyone elses.

[Musemistress]

@bweazel You're not convincing me, I've just travelled too much to not notice how this system DOES work and how different lives are led. Sure, no one forced me to work, but I never said I was forced, I was stating you could not get vacation pay from it. I was also saying you had to still be active in looking for work to remotely get any government help, it's no handout, it's drudgery to the point that it's better to look for work than relying on handouts.

[freoltic]

if Obama is for a european socialism in US, it's good for US. i'm French and i never want to be like USA, sorry

[bweazel]

Well, seeing the state you all are in right now, (stealing money from America to keep your union afloat), I don't think we're the ones doing it wrong. We're willing to cut the excess fat from the system, while you all are so damn altruistic that you would happily destroy your own country to hide from the painful realities of life. You guys are a bunch of children. I'm American, and I never want to be like France (or any country in Europe for that matter). Sorry.

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel

1) "seeing the state you all are in right now" Us? LOL. As if it's even comparable to the state you're in. "stealing money from America to keep your union afloat" LOL Dude, the EU is the wold`s 1st economy with more Fortune 500 companies than the US and China COMBINED!!! You exist on Chinese loans and EUROPEAN investments and youd like to suggest ´we live from you???? Pathetic.

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel

2) "We're willing to cut the excess fat from the system" As if you have something to cut from. Dude, the only thing you can seriously cut from is a military budget. Your economy's crap without even having "socialism" (says it all)! But one cannot have decent health care etc. and less military toys now, can one? Btw, apparently you don't even know that CUT BACKs are a typically European thing to do and many governments are now having serious cut backs as they've had so often before.

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel "you would happily destroy your own country"

We did? So a car costs thousands of USD more in Europe and most families drive 2 because the system does NOT work, correct? Now, we do know that your economy is not doing great lately and it doesn't even have that much European style "socialism". How's that possible? Your absence of "socialism" should be a "wet dream outcompeting the rest instead of losing wherever it shows up", shouldn't it?

[Efteling4Ever]

"You guys are a bunch of children."

These "children" are the world`s first economy these days. They are what you depend on. They are where US International companies make most of their profits. No, not China. They are where they can ask e.g. 200 EUR for a particular product instead of 150 USD back home. You have no clue, mate. The only child is you.

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever No, we do not depend on Europe at all. You all have hardly any natural resources, you import oil because you have to, we do it because we can afford to. Europe is no where close to being the world's first economy. Come to think of it..... I can't think of anyone but the Europeans that depend on Europe. Please though, I'm curious. Tell me how I, as an American, depend on the European socialist states. We just opened our strategic reserves for you all. Honestly, who needs who?

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel First of all there is plenty of oil and gas in Europe's seas. Even more in overseas territories..But as long as it is cheaper to simply buy it elsewhere we will do that. Cheap oil will be the first to go. May have escaped your attention. And yes Europe is the world's first economy. Indeed larger and more important than the US. And with dependent is meant markets. Your international companies make more profit in Europe than in the US.

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever Larger and more important than the US? .....? You can't be serious. Is that why you all have to keep taking money from us? I just find it hilarious to hear you say we depend on you. Who bailed who out, bro? I think you owe our politicians a very big thank you for saving your worthless banking sector, which actually causes more harm to the world than good. And which international companies would those be?

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel Yep, larger and in that sense a more important market. You're simply not the largest market anymore. Facts are facts. You think those hilarious? Good for you. Who cares.

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever Ahhh, now you're mixing stuff around, bro. I'll say again. We do not depend on the EU for anything at all. You all depend on us. If we didn't bail out your banking sector, where would you all be now? Hmmm? Give me a break, we are taking on the risk for the whole world. You all invade Libya, and fuck up your own oil supply chain, and who do you come begging from to keep your prices stable? Oh, that's right. Us. Who fights your wars for you? Thats right. Us. Most important my ass.

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel "If we didn't bail out your banking sector, where would you all be now?" LOL. I believe we did most of the bailing out ourselves. It's Eurtopean countries bailing out european countries. What the US does is irrelevant.

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever No, not when you compare it to us. We bailed out our own banking sector, and yours. Yours was in such bad shape that your government is still not done bailing it out, and our government is still funneling money into your banks. Wait. We give your banks hundreds of billions of dollars and you give us nothing, and that is irrelevant? How convenient.

Your denial is beneath you.

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel "You all invade Libya, and fuck up your own oil supply chain, and who do you come begging from to keep your prices stable?" LOL. I believe it was the US leading the attacks on Libya. I also cannot remember us having invaded it :-) We fuck up our oil supply? LOL, Libya is not excatly oil source number 1 there to us.

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever Leading it, yes. Did it benefit us at all? No. It benefits you all. And it's our money being spent to benefit Europe, yet again. Like I said, we fight your wars for you. You guys can't even do that for yourselves. Leaves you more money to be entitled socialists though. Actually, it is your second largest oil importer, right behind Russia. The EU gets 10% of it's crude from Libya. That's a pretty big chunk, bro. Ready to stop the denial yet?

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel Yeah, yeah, that why we have no oil issue at all. Uhhh maybe because it comes from ... elsewhere??? Denial, lol. I notice how much we are in denial here. Think I will buy some extra gas tomorrow. Times might become difficult due to ... Libya.

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever Do you read? Libya is your second largest importer. It's because we tapped our strategic reserves so your prices would remain the same after you guys fucked up your own oil supply. Again, a benefit to Europe at our expense, when Europe has given us nothing. Haha, yes, denial.

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel "Who fights your wars for you? Thats right."

Nobody. You invade countries illegally just because you WANT to. You wanted to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. We did NOT. They are YOUR wars. And both are useless bullshit adventures in desert wastes and mountainous guerilla territories, where we supply some troops "to keep you happy". We see you for what you are, mate. People fighting THEIR WARS for THEIR INTERESTS desparately pretending that would our "protection". LOL Thats right..

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever Oh that's right. We're so evil, and you all are so peaceful. Europe isn't living beyond it's means, nooooooo, not at all. Europe doesn't benefit from the dollar being a world reserve currency, noooo, couldn't be! I don't invade countries illegally, my politicians do. And we see you for what you are, bro. A bunch of hypocritical leeches, that benefit from our actions, but then turn around and spit on us. Can't wait til the EU collapses, it'll be fun to watch you all squirm.

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel Not saying you are evel. Your words, mate. Saying you fight YOUR wars. Don't have to. You just want to. Don't knock at our door and start moaning if we indicate we have no use for your "protection". He who insist will have to do it alone. Good luck.

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever Yes, exactly. We fight our own wars. Not saying I agree with them, but at least we produce enough of our own stuff to not have to call on you guys and your men and your money to get things done in the world we want done. If our oil suppliers start getting shitty, they go in and slap them around a bit, if your oil suppliers get shitty, you all beg us to go bomb the shit out of some nation that supplies 0.05% of our oil.

Hell, bro. Obviously I don't want to protect any of you.

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever Which international companies would those be?

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel You want details? You could have a look at e.g. "Europe's promise". Written by an American btw. Interesting because it has a loads of source material (believe it even has a part on American companies making profits in Europe). You can have a quick look at europespromise. org.

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever You're still replying? No, thank you. Couldn't care less what Europe is promising anyone. Again, you all do not matter to us, we do not depend on you, period. And really, if you want to be a dick and argue the EU is the biggest economic partnership on the planet, then I'll just have to bring up NAFTA and make you look like a twat again. You do not hold a candle to us, friend. We have more land, more resources, harder workers and less welfare. Higher GDP per capita too.

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel "Couldn't care less what Europe is promising anyone."

HAHAHAHAHA. Of course you don't. You dont want some dry facts and reality. Why facts if an opinion online would is all one needs. facts just burst the bubble. :-) Good luck with your "reality"

[bweazel]

@Efteling4Ever Facts? Why? Because it agrees with the way you want to view your union? I've been giving you facts, friend. It might help if you read them.

[Efteling4Ever]

@bweazel LOL

the "I don't need to check a book with facts and source material written by an American" because I don't feel like it, by simply turning the argument upside down and pretending the European guy doesn't know shit about his own place cause he doesn't believe the crap I have been telling about it."-technique.

LMAO. Very resourceful! 10 bonus points.

[punkmanjon]

'Do we really want to change America into Sweden?'.....Um....YES!!!!! Sweden has no working class in the sense that America (or even Britain) has, it is a tolerant and liberal society with incredibly low crime rates, it has a great healthcare system and welfare state, it has state subsidised activities for youth (such as rehearsal spaces for bands and musicians) and hasnt invaded anybody elses country to steal their oil recently. Or ever!

[28g34ajbsd]

Newt the Hoot claims Obama would feel "very comfortable" in a "pre-Tony Blair Labor Party in Britain." Fuck, so would the rest of the world!

[TimPhelan]

Great discussion about what is good about European Socialism systems which were actually patterned after our systems. Just another example the right wingers don't know what they are talking about.

[xaviqaz]

@TimPhelan The modern "socialist" system in Europe was created by reactionary nationalists like Von Bismarck, to calm down real socialists. It was created when countries still had healthy fertility rates.

[PhilipPorter]

These dolts don`t have the slightest clue about Western Europe or European "socialism".

Sorry America but your GOP Politicians are stupid and are preaching to the even more stupid. It`s all about having a common enemy for them and having a buzzword with which to describe that enemy. Once it was communism, now it`s socialism. It helps bolster their Capitalist ideals, which got you and us where?

US Capitalism fucked up the world economy and they still preach this shit to their ignorant minions!

[GenevievesVindicated]

What's so bad about socialism? Haters.

[sep0507]

Hey Mitch, you led the country into the ditch with Bush/Cheney. Why are you suddenly concerned where Obama "might" lead us?

[gossieuk]

Yeah, fuck destitute people. Apologies to the level headed yanks out there but it is fucking hilarious to the rest of us watching these hicks whine and second amendment your country into oblivion

[StartLoving3]

@gossieuk, well said, well deserved jab.

[joeygamilla]

time to move to western europe

[davidhilton]

Sweden is Western Europe?

[colibri1]

I wish Obama was a European-style socialist. We'd all be a lot better off. Even the way the right-wingers here are trying to portray socialism makes it sound so much better. Which it is.

[Salvysahagun]

@colibri1

Two words :

Marshal Plan

[howlingwooolf]

Beyond The Fringe had it right in 1964. Dudley Moore has just arrived in America, and is asking his friend Jonathan Miller about its political system, he replies

"In America, its a two party political system. They have the Republican Party, which is the equivalent of our Conservative Party. And they have the Democratic Party, which is the equivalent of our Conservative Party"

[cloudbuster77]

europe isn't socialist. it has aspects of socialism built in just as we do. Yes, bill o, i want safety nets for our disabled and elderly. i don't wanna go back to the 'good ole days' before fdr when the leading cause of death for elderly was starvation and dickens wrote novels about how trickle economy doesn't work. fdr's new deal created the middle class which has eroded since reagan and the countries shift to the right.

[BrandonHenryYates]

Yes Bill O'Reilly, I really would like to change the country into Sweden. It's a great country with an extremely high quality of living. Also, it takes care of it's poor, while fostering prosperity in companies. Disagree? Ever heard of Volvo?

[astmapiippu]

@BrandonHenryYates Well in fact Sweden is on the road to Banana republic or Islamic republic. Sweden was good country 20 years ago. Now its a multicultural Hell hole, where violence, rapes etc. are growing because of immigration from countries like Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia etc. Sweden is horrible place to live in 50 years.

[Efteling4Ever]

10) So, "European socialism" is not socialism. It's a form of capitalism, that provided Europe with the highest quality of life of all places. It works fine. Of course one doesn't need to want it. Every nation decides for itself how it should be run. But I do not undertand the demonising of Europe's system as if it were some failing sytsem bordering communism.... crap. Just visit Europe without money and you will see how capitalist it is. It will come down on you like a ton of bricks.

[Efteling4Ever]

9) Europe could pump "stimulus" money into its economy, but simply won't, cause it believes that that won't work. The fact a European tackles his problems differenttly from an American who then may or may not think this to be unwise, does not point at a failing system. This is just adaptation. The welfare state is constantly adapted to the state's income. The only thing it tells is that if one can try to repair its economy by spending and the opposite then economics is not a science.

[xaviqaz]

@Efteling4Ever 1) Europe is as capitalist as USA. European governments cuddle capitalists: only 1/6 of their revenues come from taxes on capital. Labor and consumption are highly taxed, while in USA there ´s not even a national VAT.

2) There are other crucial differences between Germany and USA: more conservative monetary and fiscal policies, a constitutional balanced budget amendment passed in 2009, stable population growth (compared with +30 million people in USA each decade), etc

[Efteling4Ever]

@xaviqaz Indeed, Europe is as capitalist as it can be but with higher taxation. But where you get the idea from that that "cuddles capitalists" is truely beyond me. That taxation goes into social security safety nets, infrastructure, public transport, health care, etc. That taxation benefits society as a whole. Not "capitalists". Compare the quality infrastucture of e.g Holland and public transport with that of the US and one knows enough.

[xaviqaz]

@Efteling4Ever Europe cuddles capitalists because taxes on capital are a minimal part of total revenues, compared with taxes on labor and consumption. Higher taxes on the european uber rich and gigantic multinationals? Not at all. Welfare is sustained by the medium and the small guy, as much as it is in USA. What do european governments truly do to deal with a budget crisis? Cut social spending and raise indirect taxes. They will NEVER raise taxes on large companies.

[Efteling4Ever]

@xaviqaz "Higher taxes on the european uber rich" As a matter of fact there are not that many überrich around here. The US may be a place with a lot of extremely rich and a huge struggling middle class, but in Europe this is far less the case. Not saying that it isn't the middle class that bears most but that middle class here is larger and there is way more money to be found there than in the American middle class. It is less of a pyramid structure here.

[Efteling4Ever]

@xaviqaz Further, the rich do have to pay there taxes here like anywhere else. There is a reason why so many rich here try to move just over EU borders to countries like Switzerland and other tax havens. They don't do so because they have to pay so little taxes back home.

[Efteling4Ever]

@xaviqaz "not even a national VAT."

Which basically is why your economy is in deep shit. An empire without serious tax revenue = NO empire. Taxes are beneficial to a society as long as they are tied to icome hight. The Dutch, as an example again, sure don't live live less well than Americans. They too drive all over the place while paying way more for petrol, have 2 cars, etc.-, etc. And guess what, after rich Dutch people have paid their taxes, they are still rich. Nothing wrong with tax.

[Efteling4Ever]

8) To FOX-minded people these cut backs may seem to indicate a failing system. This is just sheer wishful thinking. Many Americans believe in the doctrine of stimulating a bad economy by pumping money into it. Europeans don't. They are equally dogmatic in believing the opposite. In bad times their response will be:"It's going shitty. Hoist them taxes high + cut backs!". Of course Europeans could also pump endless amounts of money into their economy, but they simply won't.

[Efteling4Ever]

7) European welfare systems always adapt to the current economic leeway. They've always been resorting to cut backs when the money flow dries up and been spending again when the money starts rolling again. They adapt their welfare system to the state's income. When economy gets better they'll be spending again. This is capitalism not a failing system. Never ever would Europeans seriously consider getting rid of "European socialism".

[Efteling4Ever]

6) Greece and Spain are often taken as examples why "European socialism" would be failing. This is typical wishful thinking. Greece is a matter of mismanagement. It's been borrowing horrendous sums without collecting taxes for years. This is financial mismanagement, not a failing system. It will now undergo severe cut backs for years. Too bad for them but issue solved. Spain's crisis is totally unrelated: it has a real estate crisis (much like the US) and a resulting banking crisis.

[merryprank]

The scary thing is how deep socialism goes. I've heard rumors even the military, police, fire and education is full of greedy socialists. Spooky!

[Efteling4Ever]

4) No, Europe is not a paradise for lazy bums because nothing comes for free. A state taxes you for these basic rights. That is, every month you pay a certain amount for e.g. healt care, unemployment allowance etc. So you will get these benefits when the occasion arises but only because you PAY. The idea is simple: you get something because you pay for it. Only sunlight is for free in Europe. Money is what makes the world go round here. One cannot have enough of it. Even in socialist Europe.

[Efteling4Ever]

3) In "European socialism" everything is about money. One can get as filthy rich as one wants. But the state guarantees certain basic rights, e.g. health care (nobody should die of illness due to lack of funds), some basic allowances (you're jobless, so you should steal cause you cannot pay for your food???), minimal education etc. But NO, Europe is not a paradise for lazy bums because nothing comes for free. The idea Europe is just about hand-outs is bull.

[Efteling4Ever]

2) The so called "European socialism" is simply good old capitalism. It is capitalism combined with higher taxes and more government regulation than would be the case in e.g. the US but remains capitalism and just that. The state is like an ordinary company that doesn't need to make a profit but needs to get its balance right. For instance if you tax too little and borrow too much money this is financial mismanagement. You can spend what you earn = capitalism.

[Efteling4Ever]

1) There is no socialism in Europe. Socialism is absence of capitalism. The state fully takes, decides what need be produced and dictates its citizens to manufacture goods. Payment is done by exchange of goods as in "you've been making cars for two days so you can get 1 bread, 6 oranges and some new clothes (that were manufactured by your comrad next door and who happens to need a car). Needless to say this doesn't work and needless to say there are NO European socialist countries.

[teemuruskeepaa]

@lalo29tex If I as a European radical Socialist tried to remove the negative presumptions about Socialism from the minds of the Americans, I would say what it really means in the books and how you have been taught by the elite to feel badly when ever you hear the word. Abstraction is not your problem, except when trying to operationalize Socialism in a American way.

[teemuruskeepaa]

@lalo29tex I can't accept any social democratic bullshit system. I'm sorry! Your comment about my description of socialism, the autarchy, is "Real politik". You comment on what it would be in practice alone, which is very American. However, Socialism is just an abstract theory that is hasn't been described in practice. Socialism in a broad sense should mean autarcy, self-sufficiency in relation with others, as in autarchy removing conflict of power in economic affairs.

[citizenkong]

It all sounds good to me. They are much happier than Americans.

[teemuruskeepaa]

@citizenkong Wrong, mate. Socialism would be it. Social democracy is a failure to reach Socialism. Oh, and a little more history. In the 18th and 19th centuries, Free market Liberalism and Socialism were competing idealistic theories, both trying to solve the problem of poverty and unrest. See also the difference in what the politicians talk about "totalitarian communism"

[citizenkong]

@teemuruskeepaa

Thanks for the info, but you did not address happiness.

According to the Global Happiness Index, I am correct. Why don't like Social Democracy? Perhaps you are unhappy too.

[teemuruskeepaa]

@citizenkong Happiness is a state of mind where there is nothing outside the sphere of your control in your own life. This can be achieved in Communism where everyone have opportunities, reasonable wealth and deep and lasting relationship with all sorts of different people of the community (communitarianism). Capitalist is the reason for exploitation, social hierarchy, poverty and unhappiness.

[citizenkong]

@teemuruskeepaa

Actually true happiness comes from a feeling of being in control.

I agree on your assessment of Communism versus Capitalism.

[teemuruskeepaa]

@citizenkong Yeah, I heard that same definion in Civ IV. That's what I was trying to write. But it does not mean control as in domination or tyranny. It means logical and ethical control, good conscience and honesty. You can control your life in a good way if the society does not deny what you need

[citizenkong]

@teemuruskeepaa

Agreed.

[samot8728]

@teemuruskeepaa I have yet to know of a communist country where people enjoy the types of opportunities and wealth you speak of. This whole notion of full equality and community sounds great in theory but breaks down in practice. When you see your neighbor does half the amount of work you do and gets paid just as much, you begin to wonder what's fair and what's not. This is why communist countries have always experienced chronic brain drain.

[teemuruskeepaa]

@samot8728 The key word is direct democracy. No hegemony even in political thinking. Let them admit they are wrong in public.

[sep0507]

@samot8728 Uuh, socialism is not communism. Check your facts.

[28g34ajbsd]

@samot8728 "When you see your neighbor does half the amount of work you do and gets paid just as much, you begin to wonder what's fair and what's not."

Are you talkin' about Steve from Wall Street?

[samot8728]

@28g34ajbsd The market system is far from perfect but it still beats the central economic planning employed in the Soviet Union, the former Eastern bloc or any of the remaining communist systems like Cuba or North Korea. This is NOT a criticism of the welfare state or social democracy as practiced in Western Europe, nor is it a praise of American capitalism. This is a criticism of Marxism, something which only the far left in the developed world advocates.

[28g34ajbsd]

@samot8728 Oh, I'm all for competition - which is exactly what the unimpeded neoclassical US system has been stomping out for 3 decades. The former Eastern bloc countries have had some experience now with privatizations and deregulations, all under the auspices of IMF ultimatums, and fail to see how having a country basicly run by a few oligarchs and tycoons owning most of the businesses and services is a blessing, much less an enterpreneurial freedom-generating capitalist system.

[samot8728]

@28g34ajbsd I frankly don't understand why you are telling me all of this since I actually agree with you. As I said before, I am in no way shape or form praising American capitalism. Nor have I criticized this mixed-economy system you are describing. You are already the second person to attack my comments under the assumption that I am some neoliberal who believes in hand off capitalism.

[28g34ajbsd]

@samot8728 As for Marxist economic insights, close-studying Capital seems more dire now than ever. One can not find a mainstream economist who'll begin to think about the 'externalities,' let alone that growth simply can't go on forever. At some point one does have to stop and think about income distribution, what level of egalitarianism one wants of a society, and what resources represent commons that one cannot afford to privatize. Juliet Schor is no Lenin, but have a look at 'Plenitude.'

[samot8728]

@28g34ajbsd The initial comment you responded to was a comment directed towards a youtube user who was criticizing Western European social democracy and advocating for a Soviet style economic system. I happen to believe that private business and competition are good for the economy but that does not mean I support unregulated hands off capitalism, the huge income inequality that exists in this country or the lack of a safety net.

[28g34ajbsd]

@samot8728 This drilled aversion to the Red Scare has everybody scared of even thinking about democratic self-government. People don't understand. The state is (or should be) the people's company; BP or Verizon ain't: the interests sometimes collide epicly. It is not up to the state to make a business climate for the latter on the huge expense of all its citizens, it's supposed to find a middle-ground where both can prosper. This is what corporate watchdogs and regulatory agencies are for.

[samot8728]

@28g34ajbsd Unless you believe that the state should own all businesses in a country I don't see the point of this discussion. I agree that the privatizations in some Eastern bloc countries which has led to the rise of oligarchs and tycoons is not good for the economy, but I also don't believe that the nationalization of all private business is a good alternative either.

[teemuruskeepaa]

Social democracy is not social nor democratic socialism. It is nanny state, supporting the Capitalist by taking care of the poor, so that they can work more. Socialism is the total labor revolution against companies, wage labor and the free market. Social democrats are hypocrites and I in Finland have been struggling to get them understand that.

[samot8728]

@teemuruskeepaa interesting view point. So how would one create incentive to work, be productive and innovate in a system like the one you propose?

[teemuruskeepaa]

@samot8728 Why would someone have to care if others "worked"? We should all produce what we need. That's what for we need our own land, Capital. And tha'ts what ownership of the means of production means. This is not a point of view. The video just is ignorant of the theory.

[LouieArrighi]

@teemuruskeepaa this country was founded on protectionist policies and we were an active protectionist country up through the 70's. unions, tariffs, high paying American jobs, lots of factory jobs. what we have now is free trade, free market where only the strong survive. the gov't does give subsidies to create oligopolies but you have to understand why they were originally given, and now must be taken away. we are a right wing fascist country like Mussolini where corps and gov't collude.

[teemuruskeepaa]

@LouieArrighi I think USA was undemocratic even before the 70'ties. That was called the modern Industrialism. In the 70'ties, oil crisis, the elite created a better regime for making profit, because they were losing money. That was called Neoliberalism. In Europe, Neoliberalism just replaced a different Industrialist model. That was called Social Democracy.

[samot8728]

@teemuruskeepaa It's not a matter of what we should or should not do. It's a matter of what we ACTUALLY do. A society where hard work is not rewarded will disintegrate. It's impossible for each person to produce what each person needs. Humanity realized that thousands of years ago when they started to barter and trade. Saying that social democracy is not social nor democratic IS a point of view because it is YOUR opinion.