Re: Rebecca Watson, elevators and @$$holes

[swilson3d]

You know what's a better and more obvious scenario than your jail scene? A larger man saying he found my speech interesting and asking me if I want to have coffee with him in his room.

Yes, I would probably think there was a strong possibility that he was gay and wanted more than conversation. However, I would not be indignant and act like he was a half-step apart from some rapist pervert.

[ApostateltsopA]

@swilson3d Ah but to truly get the analogy you'd have to be flamed on a public forum by a well known and respected member of your community after you suggest to other large men, "don't do that."

I chose the shower scene because it would be easy for the "it was just coffee" parrots to see the implied meaning of soap so they could understand the implications of coffee.

[marshmello3455]

I think that you make a good point about asking someone to become more vunerable. I don't think the elevator guy was behaving appropriately (perhaps due to alcohol reducing his situational awareness). It was definately in poor taste. I think that some of the reactions to this insident are deffinately over the top though. Dawkins was deffinately off the mark! But so is the lable of sexism on this story. Is it sexist to show interest in another person? I really hope not.

[ApostateltsopA]

@marshmello3455 Thank you for your compliments. The term I heard Rebecca use was sexualize. Specifically, "don't sexualize me" To understand this you'd need to know that EG was in the bar and overheard her say she was leaving to go to bed. He tried to intervene, with his desires, and she called that sexualizing. I can see her point, personally I think it is easier labeled, extremely tactless.

[marshmello3455]

@ApostateltsopA I wasn't aware that he'd heard her say she was going to bed nor that he had followed her. I don't recall her making that clear in her video wherein she first mentioned the insident. That certainly makes a difference in regards to her reactions. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[ApostateltsopA]

@marshmello3455 You're welcome. And it's understandable that you missed it. Her video was about the trip in general, elevator guy was a small aside, until others went nuts. If you want the whole story from her part, check out the skepchick website, she has a FAQ for it.

[godofthisshit]

@ApostateltsopA

this is the only way that the guy actions could be taken as creepy. ApostateItsopA, how do you think he should have asked her out for "coffee", asked to go to her room, a motel, his or her parents home, etc?

Lets exclude coffee shops or restaurants.

[ApostateltsopA]

@godofthisshit Why would we exclude them? You seem to be asking what's the best way to blind proposition a woman for sex. The answer is don't. Even a one night stand requires a little getting to know you time, unless you are paying for the experience.

But no, following a stranger from a bar, into an elevator at 4am, that's creepy every time.

[godofthisshit]

@ApostateltsopA

Exclude the shops because I'm asking the question to you that the guy wanted to do more than drink coffee.

Did the original Watson video say that the guy followed her into the elevator, because I thought they both happen to get into the elevator at the same time. It makes a difference.

[I3uzzKillinton]

ok so your stupid video aside you cant say that she overreacted. Tell me how am i supposed to approach a woman. Im shy i cant talk to her in the presence of all her friends and other guys competing for her attention. what the fuck is the 6ft shy guy supposed to do to avoid making this woman uncomfortable. am i supposed to pass notes to her telling her she is pretty like some sort of invalid forest gump. whats your problem.

[ApostateltsopA]

@I3uzzKillinton I don't have a problem, I successfully met many women, and eventually my wife in public. I'm formerly shy and 6'5". If you want to be successful in meeting, and engaging with women, then you need to maximize your chance, in an elevator at 4am, that's not going to fly. You are right though, notes are also crap. (continued.)

[ApostateltsopA]

(ctd) Fame, money, confidence. All three will get you positive attention from women. Fame and money will generate the wrong kind of attention, so if you want more than just sex, don't bother. Confidence, though, is unbeatable. You say you don't have it, perhaps you are young or just inexperienced. That's how we all start. Building your confidence will open doors for the rest of your life. It will give you power, where you currently have none. (cont.)

[ApostateltsopA]

(cont.) So how do you get confidence? 1st, take a good long look at yourself in the mirror. Pretend it's someone else, and push every negative preconception and nasty slam you have internalized out of your head for a minute. Stand straight, look yourself in the eye, smile and nod. You are meeting yourself again. Give yourself a fair shake, realize all the prejudice and negativity are crap, and decide that you are someone you would like to spend time with. (ctd.)

[ApostateltsopA]

(ctd.) Looking fairly, if you see something you don't like, rumpled cloths, excess weight, a bad haircut. All those things are not you, but they can be changed. The weight is the hardest, but also one of the least imposing, many, many women will be happy with a bigger you. Stand straight, smile, keep clean, brush your hair, teeth, wear deodorant, and cologne, but not too much. Practice looking confident and comfortable in your own skin. (cont.)

[ApostateltsopA]

(cont.) Now realize, everyone, absolutely everyone else, is insecure, worried and putting up a front of confidence, even those of us who are confident, often fake it. It's ok, fake confidence works every bit as well as real confidence, and since confidence is a habit, faking it brings the real deal as you see how it works. Now you are ready to meet people. (cont)

[ApostateltsopA]

(Cont.) Pick a club you like, not the most popular, or trendy or whatever, pick one you like so the people you meet will have at least that one thing in common. If you like to watch dancing, and dance music, practice dancing almost any rhythmic movement will be excellent if you keep time with the music. Get to know the staff, tip well, be friendly and don't ask anyone for anything, just enjoy yourself. Once you are a regular, start approaching people. (cont.)

[ApostateltsopA]

(cont.) Make eye contact, and smile. If they smile back, go over and use my favorite pick up line, "Hi my name is _____." If you are meeting a woman, pick some aspect of her hair or outfit and offer a genuine compliment. "That dress is awesome, or wow your eyes sparkle in this light." Then offer to buy her a drink or dance with you.

Some will say yes, many will say no thanks. Here is the critical part. >>>Do not judge your self worth on their response.<<< (cont.)

[ApostateltsopA]

@I3uzzKillinton If you get a yes, great, get to know the person, have fun, take the next steps as they come. If you get a no, thank them for their time. Smile and go back to the dance floor and have fun. You will be seen as confident, and someone else will be available soon.

Like yourself, have fun, be safe. If you have trouble approaching people on your own, make a game of it with friends. 

[ApostateltsopA]

@I3uzzKillinton One final thing, when you say, "Im shy i cant talk to her in the presence of all her friends and other guys competing for her attention." That limit is self imposed. Nothing but you prevents you from doing exactly that. Self imposed limits are some of the hardest to beat, that's why you have to be fair, not brutal, when you judge you. If you won't give you a fair shake, absolutely no one else will either. Love yourself. You are worth it.

[Phlebas]

Awesome video. It's nice to see a bit of sanity on this issue for a change. It's depressing to see how many "freethinkers" hopped on the anti-Rebecca bandwagon.

[authoress1]

Your video is excellent and well reasoned; thank you

[bodybygigi]

Good night ApostateltsopA. Thank you for presenting a wonderful argument and presentation of comparisons of different things that I would have thought would have brought clarity to most. Well, it was very clear and fascinating to me. Do wish you well and a good night!

Best, Gigi Jacobs ; )

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc Oh, and by the way, a woman who makes a speech about not wanting to be 'hit on" is probably a good clue to 'not hit on her". This does not mean all women. This does not mean no women ever again. This just mean RW does not like to be hit on. It would probably be smart to not hit on RW again.

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi 1) Her SPEECH was not about not wanting to be hit on. I watched her entire Dublin speech. She spoke about religion in politics, misogyny, hate mail and unwelcome lurid sexual emails. She state that she doesn't want ANY MAN to ask her out.

2) EG did not say anything vulgar or sexual. He was cordial and respectful.

It was her (and your) PERVERTED minds that filled the incident with overtly sexual, violent, rapist innuendo like a Lifetime movie cannoli of feminist misandry.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc The only words those words came out of was yours. What is it that you have for RW? If she doesn't want to be asked out, then why not ask someone else.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc No one not even RW represented him as anything but respectful. So you admit she said in her speech that she doesn't want ANY MAN to ask her out? Right? So what's the problem then? Just ask someone else.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc Because some girl doesn't want to be asked out, that means to you that no man can ever ask out a girl again? No, you can ask anyone you want. I just wouldn't ask one who says she doesn't want to be asked out. This is brain surgery.

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi - Correction: "She did NOT state that she doesn't want ANY MAN to ask her out."

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc You just said 3 posts above in #1 that "she doesn't want ANY MAN to ask her out. ???? What would I do? I'd just pass on that one. 

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi - If you don't like strangers asking you for the time - if that REALLY annoys you, TOUGH SHIT. Don't leave the house. Life is a contact sport.

Don't like men asking you out? Don't leave the house.

You are a social animal and part of a society. Conversation and interaction are part of that. You can choose not to respond to offers or you can decline, but you can't make people not speak to you and you certainly have no right to characterize them as predators or monsters for doing so.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc I agree you can't characterize them as being monsters or predators. Exactly what words did she say in her video characterized this young man as a monster?

However, just because someone walks out of the house does not mean anyone can do or say anything they want to you. You could use a prejudice statement and threaten someone and then the police would come. In her case asking her out at 4am is kinda strange-I would think it a bit strange too. Monster? No But bad timing..maybe.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc And in addition, after the speech she gave, don't you think one would have not picked her at 4am in the morning?

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi 1) You said "Your last remarks were your own perverted interpretation." Perverted. Nice.

2) RW never said she didn't want to be hit on. She said she didn't want to be objectified and treated like meat. A man respectfully asking her out is neither.

3) She'd been drinking, laughing and talking with men for hours at the bar, presumably EG was one of them. He was interested in her and when he got a moment alone with her, asked her up for coffee. That's it. For that, she crucified him?

[ApostateltsopA]

@morpheusxnyc Morph, you are forgetting that the man didn't ask in the bar, where it would have been ok. He waited till she was leaving, heard her identify her intention to go to sleep in her room and tried to change her mind. In placing his physical desires over hers, since he knew them, he sexualized her. In asking in the elevator he tilted the situation into one with increased intimidation through isolation. But he took the no, so he's tactless and rebuked (cont.)

[ApostateltsopA]

(cont.) However you, continuing to rephrase the incident as "just coffee" when the implications are far, far more than "just coffee" is beyond reprehensible. At every turn you are minimizing the idea that he has done something wrong, even though you admit it was poorly timed and tactless. You are also over stating RW's response far more than her actual 1.5 minutes of commentary and in the extreme negative. If all you can do is parrot that RD stupidity your credibility is shot.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc Is this a comedy act? I never her the words "creepy and rapey". If you are interested in someone to talk, you ask them out for lunch, dinner, If you are interested in her as a peice of meet, 4am sounds like a good time. "She reframed the very simple, common encounter of someone politely asking her out and her declining" as " a very simple, common encounter of someone politely asking her out and her declining." Your last remarks were your own perverted interpretation.

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi 1) RW's comments were made with the subtext and implication that rape was a credible danger/possibility (single woman, alone with just you in an elevator at 4AM in a foreign city, etc).That's stereotyping.

2) Now you're divining not only what his intentions were but deciding what kind of courtship rituals are appropriate lest she best accused of being a "slut" if she goes with him, rather than just being a liberated woman. Nice.

3) Calling me PERVERTED is uncalled for and misandrous.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc Who called you Perverted? Who called you misandrous? That's #1.

#2. 1 out of 3 women are molested, raped or gang raped. If the statistics were the same for you from another gay man, then I think you might have it in the back of your mind too. And if this gay man asked you for coffee at 4am to his hotel room-hmm I can only imagine your own response.

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi Wait... 1 out of 3 women? Where do you get that statistic? Since 55% of the U.S. population are women and there are 330 million Americans, that means that 110 MILLION women have been raped in the U.S.?

Even if you deduct for children who aren't sexually active and the elderly, the numbers are still in the 50-60 MILLION women range.

Really? 33% of the entire female population have been RAPED? Ok, now I need to see a link to a reputable source from you.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc :Where did you get the math that you just did above? Among all the mistakes and false statements you make, you have just butchered the "1 out of 3" women who have been molested or raped in theri lifetime. I tell you what. Let's see if you can find it yourself. You'll get a silver star for the day. Take a look again, real close, and tell me where you made the mistake. .

Oh, just for clarification 1 out of 3 women will or have been molested or raped in the course of thier life.

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi You give crime statistics and failed to provide their source, then when asked for it, you tell me to go on a wild goosechase to find it for you when you may well have pulled the number out of your ass or be quoting a mathematical fallacy like the "wage gap" myth? Nice try.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.You made the claim, now YOU provide the evidence. Don't try to make the MAN do all the work for you. :-p

Oh and I love how you say I "butchered" women. Misandry.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc Try again. I don't have time to explain to such a child such common things just in order to have a conversation.

Here's an example: in your statement above, you said "even if you deduct for children who aren't sexually active"...you don't know that a great percentage of females that are molested or raped-ARE ACTUALLY CHILDREN? AND yOU STILL DON'T COMPREHEND YOUR STUPIDITY? see ya dude. Your IQ must be about 65-slightly retarded.

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi 1) I know perfectly well that children are molested - both female AND MALE children, but I omitted child rape numbers from the equation to try and make mathematical sense of the numbers you were giving. If we add those back in, then the numbers climb up even higher.

2) You're being evasive and trying to dodge the question. You put out an outrageously high and overstated statistic and are now being asked to provide PROOF.

Put up or shut up.

PROVIDE LINKS TO REPUTABLE SOURCES.

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi #1) Either You have no reading comprehension or are troll purposefully misquoting my words back to me. For the 2nd time, you said, "Your last remarks were your own perverted interpretation." You called me pervert.

2) I called YOU misandrous for calling me a pervert. A misandrist is someone who is sexist and bigoted against males. It's the female counterpart to misogynist.

3) My response to a gay man respectfully asking me back to his room for coffee would simply be, "No thanks".

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc Calling you PERVERTED is not worse or uncalled for than you calling RW a "slut". Funny how the rules change for you and you only. Just listening to the way you talk and your choice of words is enough for women to dump you for the rest of your life and do nothing more than laugh.

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi Do you have ANY reading comprehension or are you just reacting to the presence of words on the page, regardless of context? WHERE did I CALL RW a slut? I didn't.

I said " Now you're divining not only what his intentions were but deciding what kind of courtship rituals are appropriate lest she best accused of being a "slut" if she goes with him, rather than just being a liberated woman. Nice."

I was pointing out YOUR prudish and sexist attitude about female sexuality. Not mine.

[morpheusxnyc]

FYI - Your microphone volume is too low and you're speaking in a barely whispered hypnotist voice.

[LordNazgulKing]

@ApostateltsopA I can hear the saliva in your mouth as you speak.

[bodybygigi]

This is the first time I have heard such a clear and accurate response. I had always felt Rebecca made no such big deal..but rather it was the responders-including Dawkings himself. And I wondered how a man of such intelligence could compare Rebecca's response to having a man chewing gum next to him. And lastly, I totally agree, that many men felt insulted that a woman could possibly be not inviting to such a request.

This gentleman ApostateltsopA has said it better than I. Tjank you, Gigi

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi Her reaction was to characterize some guy asking her out in an admittedly inopportune setting as being more than just awkward, but actually as creepy and rapey.

Then she said he "sexualized" her. The word "sexualize" just means to look at her as a female. Not to OBJECTIFY her or turn her into a piece of meat without feelings. He just looked at her and saw her as a woman who he presumably was attracted to and asked her out.

RW tried to make that perfectly natural thing sound WRONG.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc And I hate to tell you this but we no longer live in caves where you throw women over your shoulder and take them home and do as you like-these days we don't need you around at all. In fact some don't enjoy having sex with you so what's your complaint? That's life. And the way you speak, no wonder you don't get dates

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc I never heard her say creep and rapey. See, maybe you're not such a bad guy morph, maybe you just think you're being attacked when you are really not. And maybe it takes a bit of understanding on your part to see how she feels at 4am. And if you knew women a bit better, you'd know some are sexual and some aren't so much-not the same as men. So they are not always on the hunt. Can't you give women that option for being different from men in some ways?

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi THAT'S the big problem. She reframed the very simple, common encounter of someone politely asking her out and her declining into a psychologically scarring trauma and publicly shamed and flogged the man.

After watching her vids, I can say she is misandrous, bitter and mistrusting of men in general, and it shows as she describes the encounter with EG as him sexualizing her and especially in her labeling of anyone who disagrees with her as being a misogynist, rape-supporter, etc.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc There was no "shaming, flogging, and rape-supporter, etc" There was lony a creepy dude who feels he has the right to push himself on whomever he likes. So, give it a try with RW and you too will go a home alone too. Bye!

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc The only one using those words are you. She said, Hey, it's probably not a good idea to hit on a girl that does not want to be hit and just gave a speech about it a few hours ago that you attended. Those were her words when she described it. The rest is your insecurity as a man to get a date. There are billions of women in the world but you have to have RW or nothing else. You're weird...why don't you just find the next girl?

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi Huh? She was a female speaker at the conference and he just spent hours listening to her and found her interesting.

She's not particularly good looking, so the fact that he wanted to get to know her shows that he was a man that looks at a woman based on her intelligence and personality, rather than her body.

And you're argument is why ask out a woman you find intelligent and attractive?

Are you high? Or just hateful of all men?

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc I'm not hateful of any men-not even of you. I just know women and they would prefer to be asked out during the day time or maybe for dinner and get to know someone a bit more. And even if it has nothing to do with being a bit nervous, women in general don't have the immediacy that men do-they prefer to take their time to get to know men-it makes they more attracted as time goes on-where as men can find someone interesting a lot faster than women can.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc What I don't understand is why did men take this all to mean something more than it really did? I had a man ask me "should men never ask women out again? ..lol..I said No, it means maybe not THIS woman. So where did all the extra stuff come from? This is one women out of many. And yes, there are some others that feel as strongly as her, but in general, wouldn't you say that it's not a big amount of women-certainly not a majority in any way. Correct?

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc But I'll tell you where you can get sex at 4am no problem at all. And free too. A man will usually hook up with another man at 4am in an elevator easy. In fact, you wouldn't even have to wait till you get back to the room!!!

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi 1) Anyone has the right to ask anyone out. Especially when done respectfully. If the answer is no, then that's the end of it. That's how humans NORMALLY do it.

2) If a man or a woman wants to get laid, there's NOTHING WRONG with that and hitting on each other is generally how they acquire sexual partners.

3) You sound like a misandrous sexist prude when you insinuate that there's something wrong with a man OR WOMAN desiring to have sex - EVEN AT 4 AM.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc See, your use of the words "You sound like" mean you are assuming something, rather than confirming something. And you assumed wrong. I didn't say there was anything wrong with 2 people having sex at 4am in the morning. I just said, you might not be very successful with RW at 4am in the morning. That's all I said and nothing more.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc Maybe she has had different encounters with men that lots of other people. And maybe she's a bit more nervous about the 4am request than others. And you are not a stupid person yourself, so would you think it's more polite to ask someone for coffee or lunch the next day than ask someone to your room at 4am? Women tend to feel more comfortable to know someone a bit better first. Not all women, but apparently this women. And I never heard he call this man a "rape supporter, etc.Yes?

[kingcrimson234]

how did elevator guy act in poor taste? since when it is wrong to fucking ask a girl to have a coffee with you? are heterosexual men all supposed to become completely asexual now or something? all she has to do is say "no thanks i really have to get going" and that's the end of it. instead she makes a big fucking deal out of this NOTHING AT ALL! if he continues to bother her about doing something together, THEN he's acting in poor taste.

[ApostateltsopA]

@kingcrimson234 Try watching the video, all is explained within. The short version is had he asked when they were in the bar, it would have been ok, following her from the bar to the elevator was not ok, from the bar to the lobby, ok, getting into the elevator, not ok.

[comradebashu]

@ApostateltsopA you need to calm down, he asked her for coffee not to fuck, because you're sexist you assume that he is not homosexual, not interested in talking to someone he found fascinating but interested in what all men must be SEX. he was polite and upon the request being declined he left, if this is really an issue to you, you are a very sad lonely isolated person who is afraid of mundane social interactions

[ApostateltsopA]

@comradebashu Interesting pop psych, but no. Had he asked when they were both in the bar then it would have been innocent, by following her into an elevator, and then making the invite to his room and not a public place he asked her to trust him and to make herself vulnerable. Try watching my vid as these are the points made.

[comradebashu]

@ApostateltsopA So you know for a fact that he hadn't simply seen her earlier in the day and coincidentally ran into her in the elevator? isn't it patriarchal to assume that women are to vulnerable and fragile to handle a polite request from another? once again your misandry is highlighted as you seem to assume that his intent was not benign, if you feel so exposed and vulnerable being asked a question that is not aggressive rude or hostile in a public setting then you are a sad person

[bodybygigi]

@comradebashu Again, why to his room/ bedroom at 4am instead of for Lunch the next day?

[comradebashu]

@ApostateltsopA and i am a registered Social worker so any psych i give is not pop but rather real psychology!

[ApostateltsopA]

@comradebashu Clearly not, the fact that you are willing to offer analysis from nothing but text on a screen destroys any credibility as a psychologist you may care to claim. The notion that any stranger is trustworthy as opposed to untrustworthy is also evidence of naivete, I work in law enforcement and can say with some authority that trusting strangers is stupid. Trust is earned, not assumed. A social worker should know that. Try actually watching the video.

[comradebashu]

@ApostateltsopA well ill go tell me clinic i have to quit since a cop says my credentials aren't real thanks for the heads up!

[bodybygigi]

@comradebashu Maybe real but you might need a refresher course at the very least.

[comradebashu]

@bodybygigi don't be stupid it doesn't matter where he asked her or what he asked her the point is he asked her in a non menacing or threatening way a genuine question if she is offended by that then she is on the emotional level of a three year old, this is why feminists are full of shit they want equality but then start crying when someone asks them something they don't like god grow up

[morpheusxnyc]

@ApostateltsopA Your prison shower analogy is an absurd strawman and is an insult to intelligence.

You compared a speaker at a conference getting into an elevator with video cameras in a busy HOTEL and being asked up for coffee by a a REGISTERED GUEST who attended the conference to a prison shower rape scenario.

You've just lost any credibility.

[ApostateltsopA]

@morpheusxnyc There is no rape in the prison example. Just a request for trust. You brought rape in with your own preconceptions. Now google Elevator rape and see if you don't think a woman would have similar, justified, preconceptions.

[bodybygigi]

@ApostateltsopA I think you were very clear and your perception of the situaltion was one of the very few that did not add in words and things that were never said-as was done by this fellow morpheusynyc. In fact, I was surprised to see so much common sense in a response to RW than yours.

[ApostateltsopA]

@bodybygigi Thank you.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc I think ApostateltsopA just gained a lot of credibilty. Anyone who makes up words, statements, et. that were never speken has last all his credibility-that would be morpheusxnyc

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi He compared a man respectfully asking a woman up for coffee to being naked in a prison shower and being asked to bend over to pick up soap and you're saying he has credibility?

You're a moron.

[ApostateltsopA]

@morpheusxnyc Come on Morph, look past your prejudice. Don't repeat Dawkin's stupid line, "it was just coffee." The man asked her to trust him in a situation where she would be very nearly helpless, how is that hotel room different than the shower?

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc Well, this moron says that you equating her saying no with calling him a raper and drowning him with remarks of being some kind of 'creepy and rapey" man is a complete fabrication on your part all together.

[morpheusxnyc]

@bodybygigi Do you just read what I write and then discard my words, substitute them with a twisted straw man version and then respond to them or what?

I've read all your responses to my comment and it's as if you purposefully avoid addressing what I ACTUALLY said.

[bodybygigi]

@comradebashu Have to disagree. ApostateltsopA seems to be very calm and logical. If the girl is by herself at 4am in an elevator, why not ask her to meet for lunch the next day?

[morpheusxnyc]

@ApostateltsopA I disagree. What makes it wrong?

Ideally, the best time to try and speak to a woman to express your interest is when you can get a minute alone with her, with some degree of privacy.

If she's holding court at the bar, speaking to a bunch of people about a variety of issues, you have no shot at asking her out then, and it would be highly inappropriate (and super awkward and public if you get shot down).

Inside the elevator was awkward, yes, but not WRONG.

[ApostateltsopA]

@morpheusxnyc I find it informative that you see elevator guy having to feel awkward in the bar as unacceptable yet making the woman feel awkward in an elevator is ok. For the record I've had lots of success asking women out in bars, even while they were "holding court". Confidence is effective, more so in public.

[morpheusxnyc]

@ApostateltsopA Nice attempt at a strawman.

I never said a man feeling trepidation at asking a woman out in front of an audience was "unacceptable". Just awkward. Last time I checked, awkward moments were ok.

But as per you, just not if you're a woman. They are emotionally fragile, powerless creatures that must be infantilized against even the slightest of annoyances or mildest of discomforts.

As for picking up women in groups, clearly EG's game wasn't up to it. Doesn't make him a rapist.

[ApostateltsopA]

@morpheusxnyc Again, lots of baggage you are bringing I never suggested the comments you attribute to me. Pretty shameful since you were complaining about strawmen earlier. All I, or Rebecca, have said about EG was he was tactless, and inappropriate. Notice though, in the bar the awkwardness would have been self inflicted, in the elevator it's inflicted from one onto another. Do you still see them as equivalent?

[morpheusxnyc]

@ApostateltsopA No, you and RW took a merely awkward yet respectful, ill-timed/located pass at a woman and reframed/recontextualized it from the psychological mindset of a potential stalking/rape victim, thereby adding A LOT of extra baggage that the encounter didn't call for.

You're defending her prejudice and stereotyping of all males as potential rapists. No different than a White woman clutching her purse when she sees a Black man.

But then you'd accuse him of "Black male privilege".

[ApostateltsopA]

@morpheusxnyc I re-framed the request to go to a strangers hotel room alone, she called him tactless. Dawkins is the one who blew it out of proportion, well him and the chanting crowd of I should be able to do and say whatever I want whenever I want crowd. You are over inflating my statements and giving way too much credit to EG, especially since you weren't there.

Simple rule of life, do not trust strangers and do not ask them to trust you. That's true for everyone.

[morpheusxnyc]

@ApostateltsopA See, that's the thing. I don't believe most men think she was wrong to feel UNCOMFORTABLE being asked out IN AN ELEVATOR. Not good for all the aforementioned reasons.

But when she said the "sexualize" part, THAT'S why men are up in arms.

She has the right to feel uncomfortable. She does NOT have the right to make men asking her out WRONG. Don't like interacting with SOME people? Don't leave your house.

Substitute the word MEN with Blacks or Hispanics and how it sounds then.

[ApostateltsopA]

@morpheusxnyc Sexualize? That is the word that has your undies bunched up? Here is sexualizartion, you can see the prison shower as a possible rape, you are sexualizing that situation. (It's only soap, sup coffee for soap) You do this for good reason, precisely the one I used it for as an analogy, yet the hotel room, alone at 4am carries the same sexual overtones. Failure to recognize that is either brutally stupid or deliberately blind.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc No one said he's a rapist but only you so far.

[bodybygigi]

@morpheusxnyc Ok so asking in the public was not ok because of the possibility of being shot down. So from that you went to directly asking her while alone in the elevator to got to his room/bedroom? Yeah, that sounds like a smart idea. lol.

[morpheusxnyc]

@ApostateltsopA That's the first correct thing I've heard you say.

[morpheusxnyc]

@ApostateltsopA Sadly, that's not even what SHE said.

Her beef was that he asked her out AT ALL. She said doing so, "Sexualized" her and not to do that.

She literally said, don't ask me out after I've spent all day ranting about slobbering misogynists who have sent me threatening and crude Emails.

There was nothing the guy could have said. Only Brad Pitt/Ryan Gosling (or whoever her dream "person" is) could have stood a chance at not drawing her unrighteous indignation.

[ApostateltsopA]

@morpheusxnyc Exaggerate much? She may not have wanted to be asked out, but she called attention to this guy for a lot more than asking her out. She called him on following her from the bar, to an elevator getting in and then propositioning her for a 4am visit to a strangers hotel room. After that behavior she said, "Guys don't do that. Don't sexualize me that way". How horrible you must feel not to be able to ask RW out in elevators at 4am in foreign countries. Oh the humanity.

[bodybygigi]

@kingcrimson234 And you don't think if he was really interested in her he could have asked to meet her the next day in public? There's an old rule in psychology: If you want to be in a position of power over someone else, you invite them to your own place. If you want to be neutral you ask them to a neutral place. So why not ask her to a neutral place? Not his bedroom...which is what a hotel room is for all intents and purposes.

[bodybygigi]

@kingcrimson234 He didn't "fucking ask a girl to have a coffee"-he asked a girl to his hotel room at 4am in the morning. How dumb can you be? And no men are not suppose to be asexual now-it's just probably better to ask someone to your room at 4am that did not just give a lecture on how she hates that.

[lsmith869]

Is pussy power a priviledge? Tee heee

[DontForgetIran2010]

Thank you so much. As a woman, what I found Rebecca's critics basically getting it is that she overreacted to a benign suggestion. A woman who dedicates her life to her ideology and was clearly not there to meet anyone or to get laid obviously felt belittled by that man. If I did what she did and a man knew and he asked me to join him for ANYTHING, be it coffee or what-have-you, in his bedroom it would seem like he is taunting and degrading me.

[morpheusxnyc]

@DontForgetIran2010 That's a psychological problem on your part. They're not taunting or degrading you.

You don't have the right to expect that no one who finds you interesting/attractive should try to speak to you any more than you would have the right to expect no one to try and hand you a flyer while walking down the street.

You can just say no. You have no right to demonize them for simply asking/offering.

That's declaring human biology wrong, like the religious do with homosexuality.

[morpheusxnyc]

@DontForgetIran2010 The part that sparked the outrage WASN'T that she felt uncomfortable being hit on in an elevator. That part's perfectly understandable.

It's that she paired her discomfort at being asked out with him "sexualizing" her. Sexualizing just means that he viewed her as a female - as if THAT was wrong!

In the workplace, etc - yes, sex/gender should not be a factor.

But it's a guy asking a girl out. And she made THAT wrong and demonized it by calling it "sexualizing".

Misandry!

[DontForgetIran2010]

Thank u :)

[uknichu]

You have a really irritating voice...

[razorlikeblue]

Rebecca calls him a misogynist, not that he acted in poor taste. Also, he didn't act in poor taste.

[kingcrimson234]

@razorlikeblue EXACTLY! she is clearly saying that he hates women and views them as objects because he simply asked a woman if she would like to get together and have coffee. that is fucking RIDICULOUS!! if he viewed her as an object and hated her he would have just started grabbing her. what a joke. it sounds like he didn't even pursue after she said no. so WHERE IS THE PROBLEM????

[Primalxbeast]

I wouldn't follow somebody that I didn't know back to his room, but I wouldn't get mad if I was asked. It would have been better for him to ask for coffee in a common area in the morning.

I don't know the whole story beween her and Dawkins, but he seemed to be rude while she was talking. He acted very bored while other people were talking.

[Birdieupon]

Dawkins is an idiot.

[imscaredofcoffee]

...what you all don't understand is that most women prefer tea!

[ben317]

Asking a girl to your hotel room for coffee, while pretty bold, is not equivalent to exposing your bare sphincter to a convicted felon in the shower. That is ridiculous. And it illuminates an attitude towards men in today's culture that is becoming increasingly irritating to me. This predisposition to assume that all men you don't know are rapists.

[ApostateltsopA]

@ben317 You are correct, those two are not equivalent, the asking and the bending.

However that is not the comparison. Asking her to your room, is equivalent of asking him to bend over. Going alone into a strangers hotel room is equivalent of actually bending down to get the soap. Both questions are a request for vulnerability. Both actions are criminally stupid if you don't have some bond of trust with the person asking.

Do you see now?

[ben317]

@ApostateltsopA There is a slight degree of difference in the vulnerability of someone who is naked and bent over in a prison shower and an ambiguous offer of coffee in a hotel room. According to your logic it would have been no different if he had asked her to strip right there in the elevator and display herself spread eagle to him.

[ApostateltsopA]

@ben317 Thank you, I see you understand my point. While I will agree that they may not be equal they are very close. I don't think pants are particularly effective at preventing rape.

In terms of personal vulnerability I think it would have been safer in the elevator than in his room. The elevator may have had a camera, his room certainly didn't. The elevator has a chance of an assault being interrupted, in the room that chance is virtually zero.

[punchultimate]

@ApostateltsopA but she didnt go to his room. no one is arguing that she should have gone to his room, just that she shouldnt be blowing the whole situation out of proportion.

[ApostateltsopA]

@punchultimate Were you aware that the length of her cometary on the issue amounted to, "Hey guys don't do that."? If you want to look for the person most directly responsible for the current state, look at Dawkins. His comments on the blog, linked above, were what stirred the pot.

[ben317]

@ApostateltsopA Also, many men and women go to conventions looking to get laid. Many men and women would even appreciate the offer if that is what they were looking for. He had no way of knowing if she was looking or not, other than to politely ask, which it appears he did.

[uknichu]

@ApostateltsopA criminally stupid? thats a retarded thing to say.

[Akatam0t0ma]

And regardless of how she felt in the elevator(which I myself have no reason to doubt),she is NOT entitled to excess sympathy just because she doesn't have a dick between her legs.People may find themselves in all kinds of situations that creep them out.She just used this particular non-event as an axe to grind for her unfalsifiable,contemptible intellectual equivalent of a bubonic plague feminazi dogma. People like her are not rational nor skeptical.They are control-freak dogmatist to the bone.

[koryakapelinal333]

Are you fucking kidding me? You're comparing a polite request for coffee and maybe more to PRISON RAPE? GET THE FUCK OUT!

[Equinox68]

As you pointed out, a rich person could flaunt their money to a poor person and it's within their right to do so even if it's in poor taste in someones opinion. This does not mean you have a right to tell them not to use their rights. Just as rebecca has a right to say "just a word to the wise guys, dont do that to me." but she didn't say "to me". She said don't do that. She can only speak for herself. I know its hard to believe but some women aren't offended by interest at any hour.

[Totaltwist]

@Equinox68 But at the same time she has a right to tell guys what she thinks (which is "Just a word to the wise guys, dont do that." I dont see why that has to be personalised seeing as she is addressing the wise) and HEY, here is a thought, possibly help them out on how to actually get laid. Food for thought

[alowlyapprentice]

*sigh.. People are not appalled that RW would feel unsafe. Why do people keep saying that others are appalled that she felt less safe than if the time and confines were different? I see no throngs of people saying they are appalled that she felt unsafe.

People need to stop talking about EG. He didn't do all those things RW mentions in "The Privilege Delusion".

What needs to be noted is that all the things she does mention makes her more weary men.

[philateliceun]

Your soap analogy doesn't work. I got a better analogy,

You are a small men and you walk into an elevator at 4 AM at nigh then a very big muscular scary looking guy walks into the elevator. You stand there, he looks at you and says "Hey, could you spare 50 cents for a phone call?" and you say "no". Then afterwards you make a video complaining about how its so inappropriate for people to ask some for 50 cent if they are bigger then the person they are asking it.

[philateliceun]

@philateliceun And the last part about the statistics I find very misleading. There are more then 10X assaults then rapes in Dublin and the majority happens to men. So everytime you get into a confined space with another man we should be justified in thinking he might assault me? Would it be inappropriate for him to ask for something because he is bigger and men get assaulted alot?

[xxxild]

This all reminds me of a witch hunt. She said she had a great time except for this one incident.

[MrTruthAddict]

BTW, I HAVE been in a situation where I was in a room with a gay man who assumed i was interested in him. He was twice my size, and he was very aggressive. I excused myself and went on my way. Did I call my local news channel and scold ALL gay men for being predators? No, because I realized that HE was just an aggressive person. Had nothing to do with the nature of all gay men.

Elevator guy (if he existed at all) was just a socially inept average guy. That's all. Not a "predator."

[Friendough]

Was Elevator Guy necessarily trying to have sex with Rebecca Watson? It's a plausible theory, but how are we sure that is what happened? Without a commentary from the person, we have just one side of the story. Based on the information she reported, it is understandable how she felt, but we can not ascribe a motive to this individual. People are criticizing her because she reported that he asked her to come to his room for coffee, not because he asked her to come have sex with him.

[Engletroll]

your soap analog is completely wrong from a logical point a view, as she had a chance to get out she was simply being asked a question in a stupid way. She might simply had experience a bad pickup line. But she has no proof of that he was getting in her pants, he might actually just wanting to get to know her. Your almost accusing him of attempted rape just for perhaps just expressing his wishes to become her friend poorly. Not every guy is a rapist.

[MrTruthAddict]

Really dude? Two naked people in a shower is equivalent to a conversation in an elevator? OMFG...In Rebecca's video she clearly stated that the guy (probably non-existent) prefaced his statement with what amounted to an apology for being interested in her. She declined, he went on his way. Dawkins is absolutely right. Her message did detract from the larger message. But chaos magnets like Watson are never happy unless some drama is stirred up. She wasted everyone's time with her whining.

[RationalRoundtable]

As always your video was well done, but I must disagree slightly with your soap analogy. You are correct that it was inappropriate for elevator guy to ask Ms. Watson to his room, however you are also ignoring the fact that in elevator guy's case, based on Ms. Watson's statements there was no explicit or even vaguely sexual tone to what he said, but in the prison situation you are literally being asked while naked to assume a sexual position but trust the other person will not *cough* penetrate.

[RationalRoundtable]

@Part 2

in my video I stated my position is not that elevator guy was in the right, and certainly not that Professor Dawkins was in the right, rather that Ms. Watson's statement that she was being 'sexualized' was an over reaction unless elevator guy did something sexual that she failed to report.

[ApostateltsopA]

@RationalRoundtable Thank you, I'm getting a lot of flack for the soap thing but I'm actually happy about that. There is nothing explicitly sexual about the shower or the elevator. Both examples are only _implicitly_ sexual. I chose the shower because it's a common male fearful stereotype. My point is that the intentions of the requester in both cases are irrelevant. Both situations are a request asking a stranger to become physically vulnerable. That's why it's not "just coffee", or soap.

[Akatam0t0ma]

@ApostateltsopA:

Even if the coffee request were sexual in nature, that still doesn't make Twatson in any way, shape or form entitled to anyone's sympathy, which makes all the sycophantic defenses of her hollow, and leaves her as a bigoted, misandric feminazi only worthy of the contempt of any rationally thinking person. Deal with it.