Երկու հայեր... | Two Armenians... | Двoe армян...

[avalian09]

вот это дед дал всем пр.....а молодец а грузины предали и будут всегда нас в спину...............

[ASALAFOREVER1975]

վրացոց մայրը պիտ լացացնենք

[furuzon77]

вот галусятян откуда берем щаварма машарма...это оказываеться язык хачиков

[avalian09]

@furuzon77 хачик твой отець осленох

[hayko1111]

ayo petqe paykarenq Jvaxqi hayutyan hamar

[Javakhk]

hayko1111, ընդ որում Ջավախքում պայքարը ոչ միայն Ջավախքի, որքան համահայկական շահերի համար է։ Եթե անտեղ Հայությունը տկարանա, ու թուրք-մեսխեթցիները գոնե մի քանի հազարանոց ազգային օջախ ունենան (Նախիջեւան-2 Հայաստանի գլխավերեւում!), ապա դա հարված է ողջ Հայությանը, ոչ միայն Ջավախքին։

[pgthinker007]

No, no, you misunderstand me. First of all, I was talking about participation and affiliation with political parties. Secondly, what I said is that there is no special award to nominate a person based on ethnic background. In other words, should I complain and tell Obama & Sarkozy that there are no Georgians in American and French government?

[Javakhk]

If, say, in California the Georgians were 60% of the population, but there were ZERO Georgians in Californian government, you would have a good reason to complain and call Mr. Obama. Have you tried to at least READ the western human right organizations reports about human rights of minorities in Georgia?

[pgthinker007]

Should I be awarded by the US government because I am minority? You see many African Americans complain that they have no rights, but if they move & participate they can make it. Many people say that French people do not hire minorities at French companies, but there is Sarkozy with a limited French roots. You see everything is possible.

[Javakhk]

The African Americans are a good example of how the human rights restrictions were recognized by the WHOLE country, and how the problems were solved (and still are being solved). So Georgia must recognize the problems and find ways to solve. Regretfully, quiet the CONTRARY happens. The number of Armenians in government (even in local governments of regions populated by Armenians) gets lower and lower...

[pgthinker007]

I hate to repeat over & over, but the thing is that if a person wants a career in politics he must join a local political party. Which Western organizations give negative feedback? By the way, historically, human rights practices in Georgia has longer history than in the US and Europe. There is very good book, written by former Presidential candidate Michael Hackabee, Do the Right thing.

[Javakhk]

Many Western organizations give negative feedback about minorities human rights restrictions in Georgia.

The most recent was the Report of the US State Department a few weeks ago.

See also the reports of:

Human Rights Watch,

Amnesty International,

United Nations Human Rights Committee

and many others (I listed only the most well-known organizations). They directly state the points I mentioned.

[pgthinker007]

I grew up in Tbilisi. Two blocks away from my Georgian school was an Armenian one. I had many Armenian neighbors, and there was a Russian school. There was Azeri shcool in Eastern part of Tbilisi. My Georgians friends and I have been supportive for Armenian friends. I did not see such support for minorities in many parts of the Soviet Union. We grew up in fine invironment. I do not understand what makes you think that these people are discriminated.

[pgthinker007]

In Georgia, regional governors are appointed by the ruling party. The party is elected by the people. There is my question. Are ethnic Armenians affiliated with any Georgian party, especially with ruling party? Do they show Georgians any patriotism of the country? For example, ethnic Ossetian, Dimitri Sanakoev is an active member of Saakshivilis party, and he takes care of Ossetian problems.

[Javakhk]

Not the PEOPLE are for LAWS, but the LAWS are for the PEOPLE!

If you some day hear that, say, in Ingushetia there are no Ingushts in local government, wont you figure out that that is a human rights restriction REGARDLESS of how that laws in Russia are written to result such a strange situation?

[pgthinker007]

In democratic country, laws are written by parliament/congress members who are elected by citizens. If you like so called Russian democracy then you got problems with civic society. Those guys from Ingush or Chechnia do not belong to any Russian political party. Simply they are puppets of Russian government with limited understanding of democracy and for their own personal gains.

[Javakhk]

You see, the electoral right is not a special AWARD by which the minorities can be awarded AFTER they demonstrate their patriotism. Who are the guys who MEASURE that patriotism to decide that Armenians deserve to be elected? Are Basks ENOUGH patriotic to Spain? Are Chechens enough patriotic to Russia? I dont think so.

[pgthinker007]

You misunderstand it. It is not deserve, it is about showing what a person can do for the country regardless minority, sex, religious, etc. Again, and it is civic duty to participate in politics. We want this to everyone to participate, but if a person does not participate then he cant justify himself. Thats my question, why they do not join Georgian political parties and do something about it? There is no special award based on minorities. There is award based on TRUST between gov. & citizen

[Javakhk]

You may know that each time the ruling party of Georgia (Gamsakhurdia, Saakashvili, Shevi) gets around 99% of votes of Armenians in Javakhk (so we do participate). But the same Armenians are ZERO % in province government. This is a serious problem, and there are many WESTERN organizations giving negative feedback about this. If you try to find sharp words just to answer me (such as comparing with blacks in USA), you can find them. But Id like to see somewhat more serious attitude.

[pgthinker007]

I doubt a political party (it is Georgian or Italian) would appoints a person, who is not active member and supportive of a ruling party. There are many opportunities in Georgia.

[Javakhk]

Lets be serious. In all elections the ruling party (be it Saakashvili, Shevardnadze or Gamsakhurdia) is getting 99% of votes in Javakhk (including its Armenian majority). But the Armenians themselves are ZERO % in local Samisen-Javakhk province. And in Akhaltsikhe and Tsalka regions there are NO Armenians even in rayon level! One need not be very good at politics to understand the roots of such UNUSUAL situation...

[pgthinker007]

Every time presidential or parliamentary elections take place in Georgia, a number of observers from non-profit organizations, international institutions, etc. are active in Georgia. Nobody ever mentioned such incident. Are you telling me that those observes who are dedicated to democracy are crazy. Dont get me wrong, but you are arguing like many African Americans in the US. There are many useful books to learn what about democratic governance and about civic duties.

[Javakhk]

There are MANY documents and resulutions issued by Western human right organization in which they stress human rights restrictions of the Armenian minority in Georgia. I am surprised that you are not aware of them. Also, thank you for cool comparison with Afro-Americans. Pretty much refreshing...

[FriendsofGeorgia]

I do not understand Armenian and Georgian, but from the comments I figured out complaint's concerns. I used to work for human rights organization in Georgia and never heard such things. pgthinker007 is right. If this is the case, why the person does not contact human rights organizations? What makes him stop? Human rights organizations can help him to change his last name if he wants to. Georgia is not Kosovo and the Darfur region. The country is democratic and full of human rights practicies.

[Javakhk]

FriendsofGeorgia, the Western human right organizations have issued pretty much negative feedback about condition of ethnic minorities in Georgia.

[FriendsofGeorgia]

Good!

[Javakhk]

pgthinker007, no, this is not a propaganda since this man lives in Tbilisi, and you know his current name (Onashvili). So it is very easy to find him (you have his video, haven't you) and find out if our not he EARLIER was Hovsepian, or not.

*

By the way, as far as I know Georgians themselves know that in Tbilisi there are many Armenians with changed names. So this is NOT a secret by any definition. As far as I know Geoprgians, too, dislike them.

[pgthinker007]

This is a propaganda. I have many Armenian friends in Georgia and they do not complain about anything. People who believe this propaganda, they can visit in Georgia and let them see with their own eyes reality. I grew up in Georgia and I know. Armenians and many ethnic minorities have as many right as Georgians.

[besteuropean]

pgthinker007, I have to say that I have heared about such situations for many times. A non-Georgian personality was "requested" to change his family name to Georgian "shvili" before he can enter a university, or get a job, etc. Even in Geogian forum NUKRI I read recently such a story...

So I don't think this is a propaganda...

[pgthinker007]

Armenian school was two blocks away from my school (Georgia was only place that minorities had their own schools, Armenian, Azeri, Russian). Non of my friend has changed last name. Many of them had better jobs than Georgians (concert hall managers, store managers, body shop managers). We are not trying to Georgianalize anybody with a gunpoint. If this is true, why they do not contact human rights agencies instead of a camcorder owner?

[besteuropean]

Well, you mean that it is NEWS for you that in Tbilisi there are many non-Georgians, who take Georgian family names? I know a few people personally. :-)

And in NUKRI Georgian forum I saw long discussions about that, You can read them also.

[pgthinker007]

I am from Georgia, and I know what's going on over there. If you want to believe this crazy things, this is your problem not mine:-)

[besteuropean]

1) I have relatives, who say the same.

2) I recently read discussion about that in Georgian NUKRI forum.

What else do i need?

:-)

[boghbojik]

Youtube is a neutral soil, but besteuropean's comments are all marked as spam and are given negative feedback. Do you see?

Now are you speaking about Georgian democracy?

What about the Armenian 'political' prisoners from Javakhq? Two innocent men, accused to be invoking in military pogroms.

[pgthinker007]

Because some of you guys are negative.

Let's do this way. Instead of complaining, maybe we should meet each other in Tbilisi with human rights activists, and help those Armenians claim those facts. We can take back to the court and they can change the last name they want to.

You want to do that?

[Javakhk]

Yes, that would be very positive measure to take. The presented video is a fragment from the movie From Arax to Kur. It would be great if somebody can find that guy, and if the Georgian human right organizations can help him to get back his Armenian family name (plus, take care that he does not get problems for that)

[pgthinker007]

OK.... if you can find out his place, I - as well as other Georgians - would be more than happy to help him out.

Feel free to contact me as you find his address. We can visit him and help him with his last name.

[Javakhk]

Glad to see such positive approach. Here is the information I have. The movie title is: From Arax to Kur. Director: Tigran Khzmalian. If I find more info, I will share.

It would be even better if you consider wider range of problems, too. For example, in Samtskhe-Javakhk region the Armenians are majority of the population, but there are ZERO Armenians in the province government! And in Akhaltskhe and Tsalka regions Armenians are not presented even in local (rayon) level.

[pgthinker007]

I am not in position to appoint people to offices. Georgia has strong parliamnetary elections that minorities are free to participate. I will be happy if we the movie maker gives me his contact address, so I can communicate with him. I can't believe such things happening in Georgia, but to make calm Armenian community it would be better to present the man to Georgian authorities and human rights activiest and find out who told him to change his last name. We also help him to carry his own one.

[Javakhk]

1. The director of the movie is well known in Armenia. I am based in US and cannot contact the director personally to convey your message. But you can try to find him. I gave you his name, and the movie title! Also, you know the current name of that filmed old man Onashvili. This is enough info to find him.

2. I have read about other guys with changed names. An article I saw was with exact names: the family Nersisyanc in village Ris at Tbilisi. Their name was turned to Gabashvili.

[pgthinker007]

OK, I look for him.

[Javakhk]

Thank you!

And it would be even better if you pay larger attention on other human right problems of Armenians in Georgia, as well.

I am rather surprised that the Georgians mostly ignore such problems... explaining all actions of Armenians as KGB-activity. The Georgian ruling party always gets 99% of votes in Javakhk (truly KGB behavior, isn't it?), and considers all questions closed by that!!!

[pgthinker007]

I hate to argue with people, but all the stories you tell me is unbelievable, even for my Armenian friends. It's only Georgians that never complain about their rights.

Thank you and have a pleasant night.

[Javakhk]

Thanks to you, too. Can you please kindly mention which poin exactly is unbelievable.

:-)

[FreedomOfMind555]

Javakhk erased :

Javakhk: "And in Turkey you have a few millions of muslim Georgians and Lazs... So THINK ABOUT THEM, too, when you blame Armenians!" -

555: I don't blame anybody, I'm responding to the video material which you uploaded with your SEPARATIST agenda in mind.

Yes, we have Georgian Muslims in Turkey. So what? What's a big deal? Kartvelian tribes ARE MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN - our Laz people in Turkey are Kartvelian brothers.

But we don't try to split Turkey, Armenians do.

[OrangeAni]

Nobody in Georgia is treated terribly. That is the GREAT LIE EVER! Ask people living in Georgian. We even treated kindly those pilots who bombed Gori in August. We are kind nation and that is the problem I see now. Our kindness is used against us. If you do not like living in Georgia you may Go! But I don't think that anybody doesn't. People with different nations and religion feel here as home.

This is foolish propananda and everyone you belives it is ignorant!!!

Geo4ever!

[Javakhk]

OrangeAni, this man lives in Tbilisi, and tells that he was forced to change his ethnic identity from Armenian to Georgian, and to change his family name, too. Stories like this are not rare in Tbilisi, unfortunately.

*

As to the pilot, who bombed Gori, you'd better hung him on the nearest tree...

:-)

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

The purpose of this video being posted here is to demonstrate how "horribly" Armenians are treated in Georgia - which is the general purpose of your SEPARATIST CHANNEL - and to show people around the world "Look, we are victims! We are victims! Give us moooore! Give us money, HEELP, we need it, we are such poor Armenians!!! Georgians are killing us, and arresting us for no reason, these terrible Georgians are making us change our last names!!!" - didn't this become your national tactic ? shame.

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

Why do Armenians change their last names in Russia? Why do they add "-ov" and "-ova" endings to their last names in order to Russify themselves as soon as they move to Russia?

The Azeris don't do that, neither do Georgians, nor the Chechens, nor the Turks, nor the Assyrians...but why the Armenians are so quick to change their last names?

[Javakhk]

Interesting question. For a long period of time Georgian scientist Ivane Javakhishvili also had a RUSSIAN second name ending: Javakhov! Itd be interesting to hear his answer, too.

***

As to Azeris in fact most of them already have Russian second name endings:

AliEV, IsmailOV, MamedOV

So nothing to change

Chechens, too:

DudaEV, BasaEV

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

1) No-no, don't try to confuse those Muslim nations which were conquered by the Russians with those who moved to Russia WILLINGLY in order to trade, conduct all sorts legal and illegal business affairs, as Armenians do, and to suck money out of Russia in so many various, elaborate ways.

[Javakhk]

Ivane Javakhishvili does not belong to a muslim nation. But he, TOO, had a Russified second name Javakhov.

***

TamaraGeorgianQueen, do you like the musical movies of Ivane Javakhishvili (Javakhov)?

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

1) "Ivane Javakhishvili does not belong to a muslim nation. But he, TOO, had a Russified second name Javakhov." -

Ivane Javakhishvili was a Georgian who changed his last name in Russia and Russified it , is this what you are trying to say? OR maybe you are trying to say that Ivane Javakhishvili was an Armenian who first changed his last name in Georgia to Georgionize it, and then changed his last name once he moved to Russia in order to Russify it?

[Javakhk]

Javakhishvili was one of the most patriotic Georgian scientists. But EVEN HE changed his name to Ivan Javakhkov. The system of Russia was so that one had to do that for a position.

*

Also, generals of Georgian army (1918-21) were Makaev (Magashvili), Gedevanov (Gedevanishvili), Tsulokov (Tsulokidze). Do you want further examples of Georgians who chaged names?

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

AGAIN, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE NUMBERS. And the number of general Armenian population changing their last names willingly is higher than the number of Georgians changing last names. The Russia's schools are great example to this....and the bottom line is - what are you trying to prove by posting this video material?

Maybe Armenian last names don't become Arab-ized in the Arab countries?

Isn't it clear that Georgia is not the only one exceptional country where Armenian change lastnames?

[Javakhk]

Firstly, you are talking about current days OR times of Russian ampire before 1917? If you mean current days, then, NO, these days Armenians are NOT changing name endings in Russia. Ony sporadic cases

*

Secondly, NO, Armeniand are not changing names in Arabian or other Muslim countries.

*

Third, WHICH IS MORE IMPORANT, the main point of this video is NOT the changed name, but the fact that that guy was forced to change his ethnic identity to Kartvelian.

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

current times, Gotveran, CURRENT TIMES... very very current times in Russia...eeee Gotveran, did you hear that an Uzbek man was recently BEHEADED on the street in Russia? A? Gore-Separatist, podlec ?!

[Javakhk]

By the way, my interests mainly are connected with music, culture, hostory.

*

Your questions are too political and are mainly relaed to ethnic conflicts. I dont like it

[Javakhk]

And in Turkey you have a few millions of muslim Georgians and Lazs with changed names like Ismail, Hasan, Ali, Muhammed So THINK ABOUT THEM, too, when you blame Armenians!

*

In contrast with them Mikael Aramyanc (the Armenian, who built the largest hospital in Tiflis) kept his Armenian name!

[HistoryOfMyLand]

"And in Turkey you have a few millions of muslim Georgians and Lazs... So THINK ABOUT THEM, too, when you blame Armenians!" -

We are not blaming anybody, we'r stating well-known facts and responding to the video material which you uploaded with your SEPARATIST agenda in mind.

Yes, we have Georgian Muslims in Turkey. So what? What's a big deal? Kartvelian tribes ARE MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN - our Laz people in Turkey are Kartvelian brothers.

But we don't try to split Turkey, Armenians do.

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

2) "Ivane Javakhishvili does not belong to a muslim nation. But he, TOO, had a Russified second name Javakhov." - OR maybe you trying to tell me that Armenians don't change their last names in Russia? Or maybe that out of all other non-Russian nationalities,  Armenians don't change their last names in Russia, don't bleach their hair to look Russian and don't add "-ov" and "-ova" endings to their last names WILLINGLY and more than anyone else?

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

2) We are talking about the latter "blood-suckers" - not about the former "conquered". We are also talking about numbers. You know, the former being Chechnya, Azeri province of Makhachkala, etc., and the latter being Krasnodarski krai where thousands of Armenians settled after the collapse of the USSR - and thousands of them Russified their last names. You know, the numbers of those who are willing to change their last names are the highest among Armenians, after all...

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

3) The purpose of this video being posted here is to demonstrate how "horribly" Armenians are treated in Georgia - which is the general purpose of your SEPARATIST CHANNEL - and to show people around the world "Look, we are victims! We are victims! Give us moooore! Give us money, HEELP, we need it, we are such poor Armenians!!! Georgians are killing us, and arresting us for no reason, these terrible Georgians are making us change our last names!!!" - didn't this become your national tactic

[FreedomOfThought555]

What's the problem of these Armenians? They don't want to be Georgians? Aren't you guys the same race or very similar?

[Javakhk]

Good idea! The Georgians are much more similar to Abkhazians and to other Caucasian nations, than the Armenians to Georgians. So what about turning the Georgian of Gali to "Abkhazians"? That would solve the poblems!

Or not?

[TeamSTALKERS]

Armenians arent the same AT ALL! We may have cultural and historical ties but we are sperate peoples, they are Kartvellian peoples i belive, and we are indo european aryans. Languages are diffrent. Abkhazians are diffrent to they are eunique. Ossetians are Persian origin people.

[Javakhk]

Georgian is a Kartvelian language, and Abkhazian is an Abazian laguage. Both Kartvelian and Abazian languages belong to the CAUCASIAN languages family. So Abkhazian and Georgian languages are closer then Armenian and Georgian.

[FreedomOfThought555]

So Armenia and Georgia are very different countries? And the people are very different? (they look similar to me..:?) Georgians are Caucasians and Armenians are not Caucasians? What are these men saying? How interesting...

[Javakhk]

The comments above concerned the linguistic aspects of differences of Armenian and Georgian languages. In a YouTube post it is hard to cover all aspects, of course.

[vartantiger]

Shad houzitch e mer vijage.Inchbes timanal yev vor hartsov ezpaghvil?Bidi ka ayt ore yerp mer sourp Javakhe bidi miana Hayrenikin!

Aghotenk!

[Javakhk]

Edogevo, իրավիճակը այնքան վատ չէ, իհարկե, ինչպես այդ ծեր մարդն է ասում: Դա ուղղակի հոգու ճիչ է...

Նաեւ մեզանից է կախված, թէ ինչպես կզարգանա: Արդեն կան նաեւ դրական զարգացումներ...

:-)

Իսկ այդ վրացական որբանոցը որ ակնարկում եք... դա մի ողորմելի հաստատություն է, մի 30 երեխայով: Դրանցով Ջավախքը լցնել չի լինի:

Ավելին, դեմոգրաֆիկ դրությունը ու թուրքերի քանակության աճը այնպիսին է, որ վրացիներ հենց Թիֆլիսի շրջակայքը չեն կարող փրկել "Բորչալու" դառնալուց... Նե դօ Դժավախկա իմ բւդետ սկօռօ...

[edogevo]

Javaxkum tjishta asum inch haykakana manric pagum en da der hech uzum en mi hatel berd sarken vor criminalnerin beren lcnen etegh. bacelen mi hat vorbanoc u berelen vrac erexekinen lcrel vor tenc manric dinj dinj irank irancov anen.

[sevag1974]

Vracin hoki chuni ,davajan e ,isk hay demadrox kaj mart e ,yexpayner ,inchu hayer chin bahanjum javaxki meyanum hayastanin ,menk karik chunink DAVAJAN kextot vrastanin ,mazi hamar IRAN@ bavakan e artakin kapi hamar. shat zoravor hoki ouni et cer mart@,Astvac karoxutyun ta eren !!!

[arinberd1]

Ջավախքին դիմանալ է պետք: Կամայական գնով: Ինչ էլ դա արժենա, չպիտի կորցնենք:

[JOROTIK]

QUE DIOS TE VENDIGA,APRIS,KETZE

[Urartu1]

Javakhki hert@ shutov piti ga miyanalu Mayr Hoghin. Pativ dzez pes hayortinerin vor ayspes djvar paymannerum Hayreni hoghin karchacek. Spurk@ yev Hayastan@ piti shad aveli active lini Javakhki hartzi yev barelavman veraberial.